Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[erwinrafael]

It's very uncool to badmouth a bandmate when you are still in the same band.

I guess that just what The Great Pretender is saying.

[Skeever]

Speaking of "clean vocals", the thing I notice about James is that his voice is EXTREMELY clean. One reason he's a hurdle is because his voice has very little of what you'd call a rock and roll edge.

[King Postwhore]

Very 80's in his smoothness Skeever.  The early 90's were the antithesis of that.  I myself like a singer that can meld both.

[TheGreatPretender]

Very 80's in his smoothness Skeever.  The early 90's were the antithesis of that.  I myself like a singer that can meld both.

I think he can meld both just fine. His vocals really aren't that clean. They can be, but on most DT albums, he'd kept it pretty 50/50 between clean and gritty vocals. But his voice is very soft, and yeah, the early 90's, with the proliferation of Grunge, what became popular wasn't about vocal technique, or hitting the proper notes, they were more about the raw emotion you put into it. It was very similar to when Punk Rock first emerged and "killed" Heavy Metal in the 70s, before its glorious revival.
And while like I said, I think JLB is plenty gritty, it just wasn't gritty enough.
But again, given what was popular at the time, you can't just blame DT's lack of success on him alone. Skillful musicianship aside, Dream Theater has always had more melodic tendencies, that were influenced by prog rock, or sometimes even more directly by classical music, that, and a lot of their songs were very major and had a lighter, happier sound to them, and that was just not what was popular in the early 90s in the world of Hard Rock and Metal. Between Grunge and Nu Metal, it was all about anger, angst, and like I said, more emphasis on raw emotion than on skillfull musicianship.

[King Postwhore]

Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.

[TheGreatPretender]

Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.

What not at the level of other singers? His grit? Yeah, of course not. Not as much as some, but still way more than others. He's a relatively well rounded vocalist, and given his background, being associated with Glam Metal roots, he's got way more aggression and grit than most of those guys. And again, no offense to them, I love me some Warrant or Dokken once in a while, but I can't imagine those guys could do justice to a song like The Mirror or ITNOG, whereas James has just enough Aggression in his voice for those songs. And yeah, I think DT may have overstepped his comfort zone with songs like A Nightmare To Remember and Honor Thy Father, but hey, as much as I like those songs, I'd say they didn't NEED to go that heavy. I mean, I'm not saying DT should limit themselves in terms of how heavy they want to make their music, and I like those songs, but listening to Scenes From A Memory, I never for a second thought, "Man, this is good, but if only they could do something super dark and heavy with some blast beats, then I'll be satisfied!"

On the other hand, honestly, considering that DT has always been ones to defy convention, I personally don't mind at all if they want to go against the "typical" low and heavy music accompanied by aggressive vocals thing. I mean, Heavy Metal in itself started out by having the musicians downtune their instruments to whole new lows, meanwhile having vocalists in a higher register. So frankly, I have no problem with DT chugging away on the heavier riffs, with JLB singing high over top of that, like in The Glass Prison, for example.

[Kotowboy]

Unfortunately, I can see where MP was coming from. I've tried to introduce DT to plenty of people in the past, and each time I've found myself explaining away the vocals. Seems like James' vocals are a big hurdle for a lot of people, especially people like me who missed the 80's.

 My wife cannot stand DT because of JLBīs vocals. She says that "they could be the greatest band on earth if they had someone like Bruce Dickinson singing with them".

Except that Bruce's voice is completely fucked now.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 Nah...itīs worse than it was before, of course, but I wouldnīt say itīs fucked.

[King Postwhore]

Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.

What not at the level of other singers? His grit? Yeah, of course not. Not as much as some, but still way more than others. He's a relatively well rounded vocalist, and given his background, being associated with Glam Metal roots, he's got way more aggression and grit than most of those guys. And again, no offense to them, I love me some Warrant or Dokken once in a while, but I can't imagine those guys could do justice to a song like The Mirror or ITNOG, whereas James has just enough Aggression in his voice for those songs. And yeah, I think DT may have overstepped his comfort zone with songs like A Nightmare To Remember and Honor Thy Father, but hey, as much as I like those songs, I'd say they didn't NEED to go that heavy. I mean, I'm not saying DT should limit themselves in terms of how heavy they want to make their music, and I like those songs, but listening to Scenes From A Memory, I never for a second thought, "Man, this is good, but if only they could do something super dark and heavy with some blast beats, then I'll be satisfied!"

On the other hand, honestly, considering that DT has always been ones to defy convention, I personally don't mind at all if they want to go against the "typical" low and heavy music accompanied by aggressive vocals thing. I mean, Heavy Metal in itself started out by having the musicians downtune their instruments to whole new lows, meanwhile having vocalists in a higher register. So frankly, I have no problem with DT chugging away on the heavier riffs, with JLB singing high over top of that, like in The Glass Prison, for example.

I am no fan of the agressive vocals as you state.  I'm just saying James is not my favorite style of singer anymore.  That doesn't mean that he doesn't belong in DT or that he less than others who think someone else should sing in DT.  I am not one of those guys.

All I am saying is that I like other styles of singing.  Hell DT is still top 5 band of all time for me.

[Stadler]

Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.

What not at the level of other singers? His grit? Yeah, of course not. Not as much as some, but still way more than others. He's a relatively well rounded vocalist, and given his background, being associated with Glam Metal roots, he's got way more aggression and grit than most of those guys. And again, no offense to them, I love me some Warrant or Dokken once in a while, but I can't imagine those guys could do justice to a song like The Mirror or ITNOG, whereas James has just enough Aggression in his voice for those songs. And yeah, I think DT may have overstepped his comfort zone with songs like A Nightmare To Remember and Honor Thy Father, but hey, as much as I like those songs, I'd say they didn't NEED to go that heavy. I mean, I'm not saying DT should limit themselves in terms of how heavy they want to make their music, and I like those songs, but listening to Scenes From A Memory, I never for a second thought, "Man, this is good, but if only they could do something super dark and heavy with some blast beats, then I'll be satisfied!"

On the other hand, honestly, considering that DT has always been ones to defy convention, I personally don't mind at all if they want to go against the "typical" low and heavy music accompanied by aggressive vocals thing. I mean, Heavy Metal in itself started out by having the musicians downtune their instruments to whole new lows, meanwhile having vocalists in a higher register. So frankly, I have no problem with DT chugging away on the heavier riffs, with JLB singing high over top of that, like in The Glass Prison, for example.

Put me in the camp that doesn't care about "grit".  One of the things I love about Dream Theater is that they blend the smooth melodic vocals with the gritty, metal guitars.   I get it, the grit is a skill like anything else, but I think the smoothness is what separates JLB apart.   I also think it is what separates what we think of as the "greatest" metal singers of all time from the wanna-bes (though as much as I love JLB, I don't consider him to be among the 'greatest metal singers of all time'). 

I'm an MP fan boy, so the band is not the same for me after his leaving, but in terms of JUST sound, I think JLB is as integral to why I like DT as MP, and it would have to be a perfect fit for me to continue listening to DT in the same way if JLB was to be replaced.

[TheGreatPretender]

I am no fan of the agressive vocals as you state.  I'm just saying James is not my favorite style of singer anymore.  That doesn't mean that he doesn't belong in DT or that he less than others who think someone else should sing in DT.  I am not one of those guys.

All I am saying is that I like other styles of singing.  Hell DT is still top 5 band of all time for me.

No, that's fine. If you're not into his style, I understand, I was just wondering what you meant he's not at the level of some singers. In terms of what, I mean.

Put me in the camp that doesn't care about "grit".  One of the things I love about Dream Theater is that they blend the smooth melodic vocals with the gritty, metal guitars.   I get it, the grit is a skill like anything else, but I think the smoothness is what separates JLB apart.   I also think it is what separates what we think of as the "greatest" metal singers of all time from the wanna-bes (though as much as I love JLB, I don't consider him to be among the 'greatest metal singers of all time'). 

But what makes a great metal singer for you?

[425]

As someone who has over the past year or so had my tastes, for the most part, move away from aggressive music, I have to say that James is quite gritty in my opinion. On Images and Words he sings mostly clean, but on most other albums it's some combination, with Dream Theater being mostly gritty. And it's fine with me that he uses it; it works well for the emotion of the music (except, in my opinion, he uses grit too much on DT12). I just wanted to point out that if you come from a perspective of listening more to singers like Jon Anderson and Neal Morse than from a perspective of listening to Russell Allen and Ronnie James Dio, I don't see how you could possibly say that James LaBrie doesn't use much grit.

[TheGreatPretender]

As someone who has over the past year or so had my tastes, for the most part, move away from aggressive music, I have to say that James is quite gritty in my opinion. On Images and Words he sings mostly clean, but on most other albums it's some combination, with Dream Theater being mostly gritty. And it's fine with me that he uses it; it works well for the emotion of the music (except, in my opinion, he uses grit too much on DT12). I just wanted to point out that if you come from a perspective of listening more to singers like Jon Anderson and Neal Morse than from a perspective of listening to Russell Allen and Ronnie James Dio, I don't see how you could possibly say that James LaBrie doesn't use much grit.

Compeltely agreed. Funny thing is, even with Images and Words, whenever he'd perform the songs live back in those days, he'd sing them with a LOT of grit. I mean, I didn't mind it, he was still hitting the notes, and it was damn awesome, but it was very prevalent and noticeable.

[rumborak]

He's gotten better over the years at giving his voice an edge, but at times it still ventures more into "screeching" than actual grit. That whole ending of Octavarium is weird, at least vocally. He gets very close to sounding like a hysterical woman.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, but that's the only time I've ever heard him do that, really.
When I'm talking grit, I'm talking stuff like the verses of As I Am or Constant Motion. That's sure as hell not screeching.

[rumborak]

Live he goes into screeching quite a bit too.

Which is fine. But, shmeg's point is, and I agree, the top metal singers don't need to do that. They have grit in the high range without screeching.

My biggest issue with his singing has always been his vibrato though. When he was young he could pull off the wide vibrato, but for the last ten years or so it sounds like a violent yanking of a whammy bar.

[TheGreatPretender]

Live he goes into screeching quite a bit too.

Which is fine. But, shmeg's point is, and I agree, the top metal singers don't need to do that. They have grit in the high range without screeching.

Like who though? I can think of maybe a couple of Metal singers who still have/had the kind of range LaBrie does at his age, and even at their peak most couldn't touch LaBrie's range when he was in top form back circa 1992.

[Skeever]

One of my pet peeves with prog metal in general is the smoothness the singers perform with. Tons of prog metal bands with operatic vocalists that can hit all the notes, but who are also lacking any type of edge.

[425]

Why is "smoothness" a bad thing, though? I would consider that a virtue in singers.

I tend to not be a huge fan of prog metal singers that fit into the stereotype of the power metal vocalist. Or anyone who sounds like they learned to sing by trying to copy Rob Halford. I just don't find those types of delivery to sound genuine or emotional. But I would not characterize that as smoothness; in fact I would say that the unrelenting high-pitched aggressive male vocal style is a type of harshness. At least to me.

[erwinrafael]

Didn't AWAKE already put to rest the case that JLB can't do aggressive vocals? Those vocals not aggressive enough?

[TheGreatPretender]

Didn't AWAKE already put to rest the case that JLB can't do aggressive vocals? Those vocals not aggressive enough?

Apparently not. 

[Tick]

Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

[Sycsa]

Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.

[Tick]

Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.

I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.

[lithium112]

I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.

[Tick]

I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.

Scarred was amazing, imho.

[hefdaddy42]

I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.

Nah, two of the best songs on the show.

[KevShmev]

Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.

I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.

That doesn't make it an ill-advised choice; it just means you personally didn't care for it.

[Sycsa]

Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.

I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.

That doesn't make it an ill-advised choice; it just means you personally didn't care for it.

Or that it was an ill-advised choice from his personal point of view. No need to get caught up in petty semantics.

[lithium112]

I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.

Nah, two of the best songs on the show.

*shrug* I dunno maybe they haven't clicked for met yet, but I felt like the general crowd's energy level dipped during those songs when I saw them live.

[Stadler]

But what makes a great metal singer for you?

Great question; for me, the greatest metal singer of all time is Bruce Dickinson.  Rob Halford is a close second, and I would have to put Dio at third.   I know what I want to say, I don't know how to articulate it:  I don't like one dimensional singers much (there are exceptions:  Brian Johnson, Lemmy), and I do like melody.  So for me the best metal singers can bring the dark and bring the light, meaning, sing the softer parts and yet deliver the hammer when it needs to be delivered (Children of the Sea is a great example, as is The Last In Line).   But more important, metal can be one dimensional in it's sound and relentlessness, so to me, the nuance comes from the singer more often than not, so they have to bring the balance to the equation.  Hallowed Be Thy Name is an example here, as is Rime of the Ancient Mariner).   You can't just be a screamer, which is why I don't like many of the pure metal singers.  I think that's why Ozzy has had the career he has had.  He doesn't have a metal voice at all, but he brings nice contrast to the music, though he does deliver the balance (his best work in that regard is on Sabotage). 

[Tick]

Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.

I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.

That doesn't make it an ill-advised choice; it just means you personally didn't care for it.

Well...umm...yeah!  Obviously its my... "controversial OPINION" Isn't that the idea of this thread?

[Rodni Demental]

with Images and Words, whenever he'd perform the songs live back in those days, he'd sing them with a LOT of grit. I mean, I didn't mind it, he was still hitting the notes, and it was damn awesome, but it was very prevalent and noticeable.

Yeah! I love James' performances during the I&W tour! They're not all flawless, but some of them are damn close. I sometimes imagine an alternate I&W where James vocals are more like the way he delivered during the tour or even similar to the Awake sessions. But then I've violated the sanctity of the sacred I&W and it might as well be blasphemas to consider changing stuff on that album now. 

Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

Ya know, I'd almost think this before seeing it so I get where you're coming from. But I'd have to disagree when comparing with my own experience. Even though SDV is honestly one of the last songs I'd pick for a setlist if I brought all my pre-conceptiuons about the song into it. But when I saw it on the DVD it had a very unique mood to it and honestly, after playing that chunk of Awake was probably the most perfect ways they could have delivered that song. And the build up for the outro was certainly a breath of fresh air from the original aswell.

[TheGreatPretender]

Great question; for me, the greatest metal singer of all time is Bruce Dickinson.  Rob Halford is a close second, and I would have to put Dio at third.

Yeah, but come on, those guys are/were the freakin' masters. You can't hold everyone to their standard, because the vast majority would NEVER measure up.

Good points all around though, but personally, I honestly don't see why JLB wouldn't fit into that criteria. I mean, maybe not at the level of the three you mentioned, but those guys are/were the absolute masters, and even guys like Ozzy can't be held to their standards.

For me personally, I tend to make a very clear distinction between singer and front man. Bruce Dickinson to me, first and foremost, the absolute greatest Metal front man. The kind of energy he brings to a show is unparalleled. And there are only a handful of guys who have ever come close. One of which being Dee Snider of Twisted Sister. If you watch any of their concert footage you will see that Dee is almost as good as Bruce Dickinson in terms of getting the audience energy up, interacting with them, and just captivating the whole room with his energy and stage presence.

When it comes to the term 'singer' however, for me, that's entirely about how crafter the individual is. The range, the technique, etc. And honestly, I can't think of a single metal singer who's maintained, or even regained their range into their 50s the way JLB has. That's really the main reason I consider him one of Metal's greats. It takes a certain kind of discipline to take care of one's voice and maintain one's range so well. Rob Halford did a pretty great job of maintaining his voice too. Honestly, he'd be my number one pick as the best Metal singer, just for the sheer fact that he can still hit quite a few of those really high parts at Judas Priest shows. Or at least he could last I heard him, that might not be the case anymore, I don't know.

Yeah! I love James' performances during the I&W tour! They're not all flawless, but some of them are damn close. I sometimes imagine an alternate I&W where James vocals are more like the way he delivered during the tour or even similar to the Awake sessions. But then I've violated the sanctity of the sacred I&W and it might as well be blasphemas to consider changing stuff on that album now. 

Yeah, I never got that myself. I was always up for the idea of re-recording the drums, and remixing the album. I don't think it's all that untouchable. If people don't like it, they'd still have the original, no one's gonna take it away from them. But hearing songs in different mixes always brings out certain nuances that couldn't be heard before. It's half the reason I listen to live albums at all.

And hey, we'll always have Live at the Marquee and Live in Tokyo to hear James' live awesomeness from those days.

[Skeever]

You know, it's not that I don't want to be more active in this discussion, but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day. I will say that Dickinson is, for me, the best metal frontman. Hands down. Not sure why he's unapproachable though.