DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[ytserush]

[quote author=TheOutlawXanadu link=topic=58684.msg3073027#msg3073027
What I didn't realize until Portnoy returned was just how many people equated Portnoy with Dream Theater. There's been a lot of discourse over the past month, and while some of it has been related to songwriting, I feel like just as much if not more has revolved around the classic lineup being back together and the "real" Dream Theater rising from the ashes. It's not even about the music for a lot of fans, it's about the nostalgia, which I'm not saying is wrong, but I don't care about that stuff as much. I personally think the band really hit its stride over the past couple of albums, and there's no guarantee the next album will be any better than their recent output (although it certainly could be, and I hope that to be the case!).
[/quote]

Didn't realize it either and I agree. But then I'm not into nostalgia with this band either. Very curious as to the real details as to how it came about but I don't have much to say about other than what I've said about it before.

[ytserush]

Depending on the type of personality you have, you can become overtaken by the incessant need to be on the click, thereby, keeping you from fully absorbing and living in the moment. It's like a slave master demanding your constant adherence. Some people handle it ok while others hate it.

Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....

You may have just described modern society.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists

Don't be surprised! Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).

At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
 
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.

Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan.

I'm not sure we're going to know significantly more than we do already. I'd love to know exactly what happened because this seems uncharacteristic of the band at this stage (Even Portnoy admitted to being surprised.) But since Portnoy left, the PR seems to be more tightly controlled and even now that he's back, he's more careful about what he says. I don't think the change in presentation will be radical at all. There may be subtle differences like swapping out some songs, dumping the click tracks, more improv live.... I don't see too much other than that changing.

I tend to agree with this. MP has said they're not doing official interviews. JP was extremely tight lipped when I asked him directly about it. I think the best we'll get in the future is MM saying what he was told, which isn't even the full story. I can't see JP saying much more about what was in his mind.

I think you're probably right about the live performances. If the drums were the biggest issue for someone then that person will see a big difference. But I don't think that was the biggest complaint about the live performances we saw on the View tour and then DreamSonic. There is a lot of talk about click tracks and I think that is being completely overblown because the reality is that no one except the band can tell once you're in that venue in the moment. The shows are going to sound different because there is a different person in there but I wouldn't expect a totally different vibe live. You're going to get a few songs changing night to night, and MP delivering his style and standing up every here and there. I don't see how any other aspect of the show changes. For a lot of people it really comes down to whether Mike Portnoy is in that seat but that isn't suddenly going to inject a vile of youth into a group of 50 and 60 year old men or relieve JLB of his particular struggles.

[Cool Chris]

They aren't doing official interviews... because....?

[bosk1]

They aren't doing official interviews... because....?

Because it's just not time yet (and I'm not intending that to sound like I am just brushing you off--that's the official word).  They do have an official timeline and are planning press and interviews, but the P/R team is coordinating things and doesn't want to do anything early.  I was even trying to get something exclusive for here, and was told to hold off a bit.  It'll come, but they have an official timeline for it, and the time is "not yet."

[Cool Chris]

I am fascinated by the workings of PR. A band has a major line-up change, and the official stance is "We'll discuss it later." I just don't get it, but I'm a laborer, so what do I know *shrugs

[Mosh]

It's unusual imo. When Bruce came back to Maiden they announced it in February and announced a summer tour right away. When GNR got back together, there were already tour dates announced and the reunion announcement followed soon after. I strongly suspect there was an extraneous factor that prompted the band to announce quickly. In normal circumstances, I feel like we would probably be getting the reunion announcement around now with tour dates following closely (the fact that there's a PR plan at all without an album makes me think summer tour dates are iminent).

[MirrorMask]

It's unusual imo. When Bruce came back to Maiden they announced it in February and announced a summer tour right away. When GNR got back together, there were already tour dates announced and the reunion announcement followed soon after. I strongly suspect there was an extraneous factor that prompted the band to announce quickly. In normal circumstances, I feel like we would probably be getting the reunion announcement around now with tour dates following closely (the fact that there's a PR plan at all without an album makes me think summer tour dates are iminent).

I think it's just bad timing and DT's activities cycles clashing with what MP was already doing.

The guys were rebuilding their friendships over the years, and even JLB and MP patched things up. Whatever the details are, the guys eventually decided they wanted to get MP back. Their touring cycle for View was over after the summer shows, and they already decided (probably way before the decision to get Portnoy back, these things are well planned in advance) to go back in the studio in the autumn.

So, we've got two things clashing:

- Mike Mangini has already been told, as a band decision, that in September or so they'll start to record a new album
- The band decides that they want to get MP back

What else is left to do? stall for time? come up with excuses? start to record an album to fire the drummer mid-sessions? once their decision to get Portnoy back was final, the change had to happen before the next album cycle would start. And, alas, DT 16 album cycle would start in September. The only way around it was to go for it when MP wasn't even in the States for a proper photo shooting.

If things were different, if DT had an autumn 2023 tour lined up and booked already, I'm 101% sure they would wait it out until Portnoy was free of his commitments and make the change as soon as that hypothetical tour was over. They played some shows with Derek in late 1998 knowing already he was to go, they could have played some shows as well knowing Mangini was to be let go. But if you do not want to do DT16 with Mangini and DT16's cycle starts in September when Portnoy is abroad with other commitments......... what other choices do you have?

I mean, to summarize:

When is Mike Portnoy free from his already planned committments? early 2024
When are DT due to start DT16 cycle with Mike Mangini already being informed of the timeline? Autumn 2023

I can't see any other way around it than doing what they did, announce the reunion without an in-presence meeting and a real photoshoot available.

[wolfking]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

I guess they don't venture on DTF all that much, not knowing what that would do. 

[crystalstars17]

Because it's just not time yet (and I'm not intending that to sound like I am just brushing you off--that's the official word).  They do have an official timeline and are planning press and interviews, but the P/R team is coordinating things and doesn't want to do anything early.  I was even trying to get something exclusive for here, and was told to hold off a bit.  It'll come, but they have an official timeline for it, and the time is "not yet."

Wow, thank you for doing that, for going the extra mile. It's appreciated.

I'm honestly so burnt out on this whole thing but it was good to peek in this morning and at least see that there's an actual plan to it all.

[MoraWintersoul]

What else is left to do? stall for time? come up with excuses? start to record an album to fire the drummer mid-sessions? once their decision to get Portnoy back was final, the change had to happen before the next album cycle would start. And, alas, DT 16 album cycle would start in September. The only way around it was to go for it when MP wasn't even in the States for a proper photo shooting.

I'm in full agreement with you, and that's why I think they haven't been doing press up to now, it's far away enough from their next activities that it would just be a waste of good press, because they have nothing to promote right now. Better to save it for new album recording content then new album promo content or the eventual summer tour promo content.

But since Portnoy left, the PR seems to be more tightly controlled and even now that he's back, he's more careful about what he says.

They've had some moments of more openness lately, like when they discussed why they were delaying their tour and the circumstances around that decision. I have a feeling that when JP talks, we won't walk away knowing all the specifics of the decision on the band's side, but we're probably gonna find out more than we do now.

[gborland]

Still amazed that people think there is more to know. Other than the details of their private conversations, which were private (obviously), what else is there to know? There's no PR because there's nothing else to publicise.

[Jamesman42]

Still amazed that people think there is more to know.

Welcome to the forums!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I am amazed that some people think all that there is to know was revealed in a one paragraph statement and that we should therefore all move on and stop discussing. If that is your view you should probably avoid all DT media once the band decides to do interviews because MP's return/MM's departure is going to be asked in nearly every single interview, I'd wager.

Also, 'There's no PR because there's nothing else to publicise' is inaccurate. As bosk mentioned, there is no PR because the timing is not yet. There is an official timeline apparently. It just is not now. That is not to say that 'there is nothing else to publicise.' Bet your bottom dollar they'll be asked about this and I'll bet mine that they will say more than 'nothing more to say.'

[crystalstars17]

I am amazed that some people think all that there is to know was revealed in a one paragraph statement and that we should therefore all move on and stop discussing. If that is your view you should probably avoid all DT media once the band decides to do interviews because MP's return/MM's departure is going to be asked in nearly every single interview, I'd wager.

Also, 'There's no PR because there's nothing else to publicise' is inaccurate. As bosk mentioned, there is no PR because the timing is not yet. There is an official timeline apparently. It just is not now. That is not to say that 'there is nothing else to publicise.' Bet your bottom dollar they'll be asked about this and I'll bet mine that they will say more than 'nothing more to say.'

💯

[King Postwhore]

Still amazed that people think there is more to know.

Welcome to the forums!

Bearded gentleman!

[gzarruk]

I'm just patiently awaiting the announcement that they have started working on DT16. Mike still has another show booked on Jan. 25th but then he's free until March, so they'll most likely (and hopefully) hit the studio at the start of next month.

[MoraWintersoul]

Other than the details of their private conversations, which were private (obviously), what else is there to know?

Well, Mike did tell us some details from their private conversations that were interesting to know, so maybe JP will tell more from his side!

[Lax]

Talking about sound, even if I'm not the greatest fan of the "each hit must have the same velocity" MM likes, and if often cymbals are just buried in modern DT albums,
AVFTTOFTW made my eyes wet for many reasons, one of them is the drumming, just the charleston alone is just mastery playing.
The mixing and composition are so fantastic.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Talking about sound, even if I'm not the greatest fan of the "each hit must have the same velocity" MM likes, and if often cymbals are just buried in modern DT albums,
AVFTTOFTW made my eyes wet for many reasons, one of them is the drumming, just the charleston alone is just mastery playing.
The mixing and composition are so fantastic.

His approach can be a bit academic at times although there are probably a million people out there who would think the same thing of John Petrucci and his style.

As far as the cymbals go, I think once we got to View you could hear them much more clearly than in previous albums. The cymbal work on the title track and TT are some of my favorites.

[gborland]

MP has said a couple of times that they didn't talk about business or money yet.

Wouldn't it be funny if they came to that conversation, couldn't reach an agreement, and MP walked away again before he even got started?

[Setlist Scotty]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

[HOF]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.

I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.

[MirrorMask]

Was January the time table all along? I was sure that it was during Autumn 2023 that they would have started to meet for DT16, hence why my guess above that they kinda had to make the move 'cause there was no point in starting an album with Mangini or, even worse, ask him to lie in interviews for his solo album.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.

I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.

I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.

I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.

[wolfking]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

I was really just saying that to have a subtle stab towards all of us here.   

Thinking about it, I think the respect for MM doing a cycle of promo might be the thing they took into consideration with the announcement.  It makes sense and the best outcome to not leave MM totally out to dry.

[Stadler]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.

I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.

I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.

I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.

You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision.  I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.

I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.

I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.

I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.

You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision.  I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)

DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking).

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but I am very curious to see if this continues going forward because in his absence the band seemed to take a much more egalitarian approach.

[Stadler]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.

I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.

I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.

I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.

You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision.  I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)

DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.

There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward".    I've already written this numerous times: that's not how life works.  Life isn't always - isn't even FREQUENTLY - a series of discrete, stand-alone actions with discrete, stand-alone reactions.  It CAN be - your scenario is POSSIBLE, no doubt - but there's nothing other than supposition that rules out the other 999 possibilities.  (And no, yours isn't even the most PROBABLE; there's no way of saying that one way or the other).

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.

I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.

I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.

I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.

You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision.  I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)

DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.

There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward".    I've already written this numerous times: that's not how life works.  Life isn't always - isn't even FREQUENTLY - a series of discrete, stand-alone actions with discrete, stand-alone reactions.  It CAN be - your scenario is POSSIBLE, no doubt - but there's nothing other than supposition that rules out the other 999 possibilities.  (And no, yours isn't even the most PROBABLE; there's no way of saying that one way or the other).

Which way do you think is most likely and out of curiosity how much probability are you assigning to this? Or is this another one of your 'we can't ever know' theoreticals that I should think of the same way I think of the likelihood that if I flip a penny 10,000 times it is theoretically possible that all flips will result in a tails?

[Madman Shepherd]

Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking).

He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."

To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.

Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.

In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."

All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.

[gborland]

There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward".

You're clutching at straws. 

You're getting possibility confused with probability. Anyone can invent some hypothetical scenario, but that doesn't mean those scenarios are worthy of serious consideration.

DT wanted MP back. They told MM he had to leave. That's it.

[Stadler]

Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?

Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).

I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.

Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.

I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.

I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.

I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.

You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision.  I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)

DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.

There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward".    I've already written this numerous times: that's not how life works.  Life isn't always - isn't even FREQUENTLY - a series of discrete, stand-alone actions with discrete, stand-alone reactions.  It CAN be - your scenario is POSSIBLE, no doubt - but there's nothing other than supposition that rules out the other 999 possibilities.  (And no, yours isn't even the most PROBABLE; there's no way of saying that one way or the other).

Which way do you think is most likely and out of curiosity how much probability are you assigning to this? Or is this another one of your 'we can't ever know' theoreticals that I should think of the same way I think of the likelihood that if I flip a penny 10,000 times it is theoretically possible that all flips will result in a tails?

I've already said what I think has the most likely probability.   

I think there was a growing, slight, festering sort of discontent in the band in terms of reception and reaction.  I think that as great a guy as Mike M. is, as fantastic a drummer as he is, he's not a brother.  And when John, Mike P., Marlene, Rena and Lisa toured together it became more stark.   And when the band came off tour this past summer/fall, and assessed "where do we go next", there was a discussion point about Mike M's solo record and with that the stars aligned.  I don't know what the EXACT conversation was like; it could have started with any of the five, and there are an almost infinite number of permutations, but the essence of it was "I think we're going to do this."  "I'm okay with that, just don't hang me out to dry in interviews!"  "Let's fucking go!" 

I think the probabilities suggest it wasn't an impulsive decision by one person, it was a steady progression to the inevitable (within the band in the moment, I don't mean that "it was always inevitable that Portnoy would return").

But that's just MY probabilities based on watching this band and the individuals for more than 35 years.  I am no more or less "right" than you or anyone else.  Having said that, in the JP/MP shows, I saw something that I have never seen before with JP or DT or MP... there was a moment - in both shows I saw - where John and Mike gave each other a look and it was more than music.  It just was.  There was an emotion there that went beyond just nailing a hard run of notes in perfect time and pitch.  It was deeper than that.

[gzarruk]

Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking).

He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."

To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.

Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.

In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."

All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.

While I've been very vocal about my dissatisfaction/disappointment with the recent lineup change, one thing I'm very much looking forward to is some more balance in the studio music and live shows production side of things. Most, if not all, of the "questionable" decisions made in recent years when it comes to the sound of the albums (production, mixing choices, etc.) and live shows production (static setlists, backing tracks, etc.) fall under the leadership of JP. Now that Mike P is back, I have to assume one of the reasons of his returning might be related to John P missing/wanting that kind of partnership back to balance each other out. While it's true and well documented that MP was, by his own words, a control freak and that he usually wore each other out until he got his way, I think that present day MP could freshen things up a lot in that area (in contrast to the last 13 years); though when it comes to his drumming and production on everything else he's done, I think he's became stale, but that's another topic of discussion.

I guess the TL;DR version of this would be: I hope MP returns to co-producing with JP and not just JP alone anymore.