DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[Dream Team]

Ok, then please don’t say “that awesome guitar solo in Goodnight Kiss”. It’s not in GK, it’s in SDoIT 32:45 or whatever.

[MirrorMask]

In the end it all comes down a philosophical, almost abstract question: how long can a "song" be before it starts to not feel like a "song" but a "suite", a "composition", a "mini album" or whatever? In a world where there is a 20 minutes track on Awake called "A Mind Beside itself", would it feel like a "song" or would it feel like a merging of  a very long instrumental intro that takes almost 1/3 of the composition, the main part of the song and an acoustic coda?

[hefdaddy42]

Ok, then please don’t say “that awesome guitar solo in Goodnight Kiss”. It’s not in GK, it’s in SDoIT 32:45 or whatever.

Why?  The whole point of saying anything is communication.  It is clearer communication to say "the solo in Goodnight Kiss".  That way, everyone knows what everyone is talking about.

[Mosh]

+ long songs are referred to by the subtitles of parts all the time. Rush singles out parts of 2112 live all the time and certain parts are discussed specifically (like Temples of Syrinx) but nobody is arguing whether or not 2112 is a single song. Supper's Ready, same thing.

I think Six Degrees is a bit of a grey area and you can argue either way, but the tracks being separated on the disc isn't really a valid argument IMO since they only did that for practical reasons, not necessarily artistic ones.

[HOF]

SDOIT feels more like separate songs because most of the individual tracks have a complete or at least an identifiable verse/chorus/verse structure. But it's all kind of semantics. It's a piece of music.

[cramx3]

I think Six Degrees is a bit of a grey area and you can argue either way, but the tracks being separated on the disc isn't really a valid argument IMO since they only did that for practical reasons, not necessarily artistic ones.

I hate how it's one track on Score though. 

I don't know, I understand the band considers it to be a single song, but for me, it's hard to accept that even if that's the truth from the artist.  The tracks just are mostly their own song structure.  Same with A Mind Besides Itself.  Those three tracks have no real way for me, to think of all three as one song, other than the artist saying so.  So I accept the artists says, but mentally kind of throw it out.

[Setlist Scotty]

I think Six Degrees is a bit of a grey area and you can argue either way, but the tracks being separated on the disc isn't really a valid argument IMO since they only did that for practical reasons, not necessarily artistic ones.

I hate how it's one track on Score though. 

I don't know, I understand the band considers it to be a single song, but for me, it's hard to accept that even if that's the truth from the artist.  The tracks just are mostly their own song structure.  Same with A Mind Besides Itself.  Those three tracks have no real way for me, to think of all three as one song, other than the artist saying so.  So I accept the artists says, but mentally kind of throw it out.

Except I don't think the band has ever spoken of AMBI as an epic. They've always been referred to as 3 songs IIRC. That's a case where I would say AMBI is probably best considered a suite of songs. SDoIT, OTOH has an overture, a finale and some of the parts in SDoIT don't feel complete if taken individually.

[Buddyhunter1]

SDOIT feels more like separate songs because most of the individual tracks have a complete or at least an identifiable verse/chorus/verse structure. But it's all kind of semantics. It's a piece of music.

This. I know the band considers the whole thing a song, so it's hard to argue with that, but to me it just doesn't work as a single song, so I don't really consider it one, personally.

Anyways how about that return of Mike Portnoy?

[DTwwbwMP]

Anyways how about that return of Mike Portnoy?

EXACTLY! Any chance to get back on TOPIC?

This is what happens when a band makes a MAJOR announcement and then go MIA!

[Mosh]

The thing that makes me lean more into considering it a single song is the fact that it is structured pretty much like all of their other 20+ minute epics like ACOS, Octavarium, etc. There are recurring themes while also distinct parts that could be separated into their own songs (something like Full Circle from Octavarium is somewhat comparable to Test That Stumped Them All structurally), then at the same time there are parts that clearly serve as transitional and don’t work quite as well isolated (War Inside My Head, About to Crash reprise). I will say that I never felt like Solitary Shell flowed quite as well and that’s where it stops feeling like a single piece for me, I think the whole thing would be more cohesive without it even though as a song it’s great.

But like I said before, it’s a grey area and I’m not really going to argue with anybody who sees them as separate songs.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Oh dear,

Hello, everyone! It's been a while (a couple of years, at least) since I last wrote in these parts. To be honest, I had grown weary of DT-related discussions and I feel that talking about the band stopped being so much fun as it once was because it all arguably became a little bit stale (for lack of a better word), but these news really hit us all like a train, didn't they?

I've been lurking quite a bit since the announcement and I really like and resonate with some of the things said by some of you (particularly my very good and old friends. You know who you are!). Here are my two cents that I really felt like logging back in after forever and share them with y'all:


WARNING: It's going to be a long post, so feel free to skip all of this and answer a very simple TLDR. I won't feel any offense. 


Wow. It's almost two months since the announcement and I'm still a mixed bag of emotions. This was completely out of the blue and unexpected, and after reading the words "Mike Portnoy returns to Dream Theater" I relived some of the most intense moments from September 2010 when Mike Portnoy originally left. I remember feeling like a lifelong friend had died (I was 20 back then) and feeling completely shaken to the core. It's funny how close we can emotionally get to a rock band, eh? Now, that being said, the following months with the whole drummer announcement thing were incredibly exciting and full of revitalized discussion. It was really a great time to be a Dream Theater fan and, particularly, a great time to be a part of this community because discussions evolved into more intricate debates and perspectives and then, finally, the announcement of Mike Mangini.

Mike Mangini. Boy, what a drummer. I understand perfectly what DT saw in him, and in the same tenor I understand perfectly what some fans didn't like about him (and that is pretty simple to answer: he was not Mike Portnoy). Nevertheless, he was exactly what the band needed in 2011 and helped DT, in some ways better than others, to fit into an ever evolving and complex progressive metal scene in the 2010s - the decade of the Hakens, the Peripherys, the Animals as Leaders, the Nolly-driven-hyper-pristine productions. ADTOE was a huge home run, in DT's most particular way. I've been listening quite a lot of the Mangini-era output these past few weeks and that album is truly one of DT's all-time best in my book, no contest. The songs are inspired, the performances are soulful and the tour that followed was something really special (even though the Luna Park document is not really up there with DT's great live documents, not because of the band but because of the production, but that's another story for another day). I remember feeling very strongly then that DT was going to be okay. It was a great, great feeling.

These are not going to be chronicles of my DT journey in the 2010s and 2020s because I can't imagine them being an interesting read to any of you, so I'm going to fast forward quite a bit:

I know, as most of you do, that the rest of the 2010s were mostly okay for the band. It produced some music that hasn't really aged so well (the self-titled, although it has some pretty brilliant moments) and it also produced some gems as well. I've been focus of critique and thrash-talk for the past seven years for saying The Astonishing is one of my all-time favorite Dream Theater albums and I truly understand its weak points (it's longer than it should be, some of the "additional" sound production feels like a 90s RPG and the graphic 3D art is not very good at all) but it holds some of the most inspired and beautiful music DT has ever produced and that really set in stone a new approach in their musical legacy to writing concept albums (unlike The Neal Morse Band's Similitude of a Dream, that although it was very good and I enjoy it thoroughly it's pretty much the same music Neal Morse had been writing for the past 30 years compositionally, sonically and aesthetically). The last two albums in the Mangini-era, Distance and View, fall into the same category in my book: they sound great (compared to their earlier 2010s efforts), they make amazing use of Mangini's otherwordly technical chops and particularly A View From the Top of the World felt like the culmination of the Mangini sound and aesthetic although I don't feel there was anything particularly exciting about these releases other than they were a nice collection of songs that I still enjoy from time to time. Things were really good and stable in DT camp, but to be honest nothing exciting was happening. The Grammy win was so cool, though, and having a song like The Alien win it was a huge statement but that's about it.

Now, after a quick or not-so-quick recollection of thoughts and feelings over 13 years of DT history, I'll slowly move into my thesis:

I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter). The aesthetics they were aiming at really needed that sort of precision which was not so needed in the Portnoy camp because the band's musical philosophy changed quite a bit (I'm a full-time composition professor at a Conservatory, I can get pretty intense about these subjects). I did miss the rotating setlists because it was so fun coming into here and discussing different possibilities and combinations, but I completely understand why they got rid of them and honestly it was fine by me because change is not always for the worse. You lose the excitement and mystique, but you get an absolutely dialed-in show more in the vain of a Classical Music concert and from here is that I state why I'm a mixed bag of feelings regarding Mike Portnoy's return:

I think this both a personally-driven and business-driven decision by both parts. I think Mike Portnoy's return is going to up their next tour quite a bit, and I can see them playing in bigger places and audiences because most of us want to relive the good ole pre-2010 days and the young people who have discovered the band will see Mike Portnoy behind the kit with Dream Theater for the very first time. This is going to be be very good for business, hands-down.

Now, as most of you I have several questions that I will very gladly wait to see answered: How much music from the Mangini era will they still play? Will Mike Portnoy be able to pull off songs like Pale Blue Dot? In the same way that Mike Mangini technically pushed the other three instrumentalists, will they push Mike Portnoy as well? I can't help but to feel that Rudess, Petrucci and Myung have evolved quite a bit in their respective crafts but I do not feel the same about Portnoy. LTE3 was definitely very nice, but LTE is not the same as Dream Theater. The band achieved a very intricate and technically-driven sound with A View From the Top of the World, and I would feel like the band is taking steps backwards in the went back to their Black Clouds & Silver Linings sound, it's a weird feeling.

Its really too soon to know how DT will take their acquired wisdom from the 2010s and merge it with the pre-2010 way of thinking about music, but although I'm definitely excited about what will happen I fear that DT might become an Iron Maiden of sorts: a band that will forever sail with their "greatest hits" (remember that "greateSt Hit" pun? One of MP's not-so-good creative outputs).

Anyways, to conclude this unnecessarily long post (what a way of coming back to the forum, eh?): I will really miss Mike Mangini. He is a truly one-of-a-kind professional and I really enjoyed what the band became with his talent behind the drums. I never imagined I would be saying this, but still don't know if musically the band will benefit from Mike Portnoy's return in many aspects, although I'm extremely excited to find out in the following months. As wishful thinking, I really hope that the band really takes into account everything they learned from the Mangini era in terms of management, of composition, of band dynamics and of music because us, the fans, can only benefit from it. It's ironic how, in some manner, Mike Portnoy has some pretty big shoes to fill this time around drum-wise. Now, something DID return with a bang: DT-related discussions are probably going to be fun and exciting again for me.

Cheers!

[Schurftkut]

i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT

[cramx3]

the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter

Welcome back, but this comment stood out to me.  I find that live release to be pretty uninteresting to me. More so from a dvd/blu-ray perspective for me (I'm not sure I ever listened to the CDs I hvae).  I bought the nice set and watched it maybe once or twice and had no interest in returning to it.  I don't know if it was the dead crowd or the uninteresting look of the band on stage, but they most likely played off each other and it's an incredibly boring concert to watch.  The actual performance is probably better than I'm giving credit, because I can't get past the fact the venue looks like it's filled with people (including the band) who show no excitement. But that may actually represent this era of the band's live shows.  Kind of stale and life less.  I blame the click for at least some of that.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter

Welcome back, but this comment stood out to me.  I find that live release to be pretty uninteresting to me. More so from a dvd/blu-ray perspective for me (I'm not sure I ever listened to the CDs I hvae).  I bought the nice set and watched it maybe once or twice and had no interest in returning to it.  I don't know if it was the dead crowd or the uninteresting look of the band on stage, but they most likely played off each other and it's an incredibly boring concert to watch.  The actual performance is probably better than I'm giving credit, because I can't get past the fact the venue looks like it's filled with people (including the band) who show no excitement. But that may actually represent this era of the band's live shows.  Kind of stale and life less.  I blame the click for at least some of that.

Hi, thanks! It's nice to be back.

I get what you mean and I partly agree, but that statement you quoted was by no means making a judgement whether the Mangini era aesthetic was better of worse than the Portnoy aesthetic. I even made the comparison with a classical music concert, where even if the ensemble is playing the most intense and rock-like piece (Shostakovich, anyone?) you really don't get the energy you would normally get from a traditional rock concert (which is clearly Mike Portnoy's domain). What I meant by "crowning achievement" is that Distant Memories is, definitely, the best representation of what Dream Theater aspired to become in the 2010s and that is kind of closer to what most progressive metal bands are doing (it's difficult to find bands in the style that aren't totally dialed in to a click track nowadays). I totally get that such representation of the band is not probably everyone's cup of tea (as per your comment) and that's entirely fine.

Yeah, people are just standing there, but that's not always an entirely bad thing. Of course, if crowd excitement and physical reaction is a point of analysis, the Mike Portnoy era got the Mangini era completely beat in that department because Mike Portnoy was and will probably always be the best showman of the entire group. His stage presence is staggering and pretty incredible.

The Mangini era Dream Theater, in their concerts, was far more precise in many ways than the Portnoy era Dream Theater. Is this better or worse? Well, that requires some interpretation and further discussion. What I was aiming at is at implying that although they're most likely to return to a clickless live show (and that's fine by me because I cannot imagine, for the life of me, Mike Portnoy playing with a click on stage). I do hope that some of the absolute precision and finesse brought by Mike Mangini stays on because there can't be too much of that (maybe that's my classical background speaking?).

[cramx3]

the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter

Welcome back, but this comment stood out to me.  I find that live release to be pretty uninteresting to me. More so from a dvd/blu-ray perspective for me (I'm not sure I ever listened to the CDs I hvae).  I bought the nice set and watched it maybe once or twice and had no interest in returning to it.  I don't know if it was the dead crowd or the uninteresting look of the band on stage, but they most likely played off each other and it's an incredibly boring concert to watch.  The actual performance is probably better than I'm giving credit, because I can't get past the fact the venue looks like it's filled with people (including the band) who show no excitement. But that may actually represent this era of the band's live shows.  Kind of stale and life less.  I blame the click for at least some of that.

Hi, thanks! It's nice to be back.

I get what you mean and I partly agree, but that statement you quoted was by no means making a judgement whether the Mangini era aesthetic was better of worse than the Portnoy aesthetic. I even made the comparison with a classical music concert, where even if the ensemble is playing the most intense and rock-like piece (Shostakovich, anyone?) you really don't get the energy you would normally get from a traditional rock concert (which is clearly Mike Portnoy's domain). What I meant by "crowning achievement" is that Distant Memories is, definitely, the best representation of what Dream Theater aspired to become in the 2010s and that is kind of closer to what most progressive metal bands are doing (it's difficult to find bands in the style that aren't totally dialed in to a click track nowadays). I totally get that such representation of the band is not probably everyone's cup of tea (as per your comment) and that's entirely fine.

Yeah, people are just standing there, but that's not always an entirely bad thing. Of course, if crowd excitement and physical reaction is a point of analysis, the Mike Portnoy era got the Mangini era completely beat in that department because Mike Portnoy was and will probably always be the best showman of the entire group. His stage presence is staggering and pretty incredible.

The Mangini era Dream Theater, in their concerts, was far more precise in many ways than the Portnoy era Dream Theater. Is this better or worse? Well, that requires some interpretation and further discussion. What I was aiming at is at implying that although they're most likely to return to a clickless live show (and that's fine by me because I cannot imagine, for the life of me, Mike Portnoy playing with a click on stage). I do hope that some of the absolute precision and finesse brought by Mike Mangini stays on because there can't be too much of that (maybe that's my classical background speaking?).

Appreciate the detailed response as I don't think I interpreted it the way you meant. Personally I'd rate Live at Luna Park to be the best MM live album.  The aesthetic is part of my reasoning, but I likely may be putting more value on that than you.  I've never cared for my live music being absolute precision, so I don't weigh that so highly. Even the worse DT live album is still damn precise considering the music they play. 

[bosk1]

I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).

I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated.  And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you.  Quite the opposite, actually.  I kind of agree with you.  I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part.  The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting.  But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.

I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S.  But I don't think the click is to blame.  I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full. 

[Indiscipline]

I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).

I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated.  And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you.  Quite the opposite, actually.  I kind of agree with you.  I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part.  The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting.  But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.

I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S.  But I don't think the click is to blame.  I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full. 

Those are interesting observations. I remember leaving the I&W Anniversary show - seated -  quite disappointed by the lack of energy in the room (unusually strange for Italy I must say) and a bit perplexed and worried about the choice of venue (a theatre where I have performed a couple times, hence midcard circuit). On the other hand, I truly enjoyed the Astonishing show from a seat in the dark the same way I would have watched a play.

[cramx3]

I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).

I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated.  And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you.  Quite the opposite, actually.  I kind of agree with you.  I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part.  The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting.  But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.

I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S.  But I don't think the click is to blame.  I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full. 

Those are is interesting observations. I remember leaving the I&W Anniversary show - seated -  quite disappointed by the lack of energy in the room (unusually strange for Italy I must say) and a bit perplexed and worried about the choice of venue (a theatre where I have performed a couple times, hence midcard circuit). On the other hand, I truly enjoyed the Astonishing show from a seat in the dark the same way I would have watched a play.

The 2nd TA show I saw, I was in front row and it was the only time I was OK with sitting.  I mean, I would prefer to ahve stood but they didn't allow anyone to stand at the show.  But being in front row, it was a cool experience to sit there and have DT play for you, felt like I was sitting on my couch and they were in my living room. Felt surreal to me in that moment.

[ytserush]

I sat through it. I was really interested in what MP might say, but the thing was pretty much all on WDADU.

He did say that he had a multi camera pro shot of the Manhattan Center '93 show in his archives and if he gets back involved in the official bootleg thingy, that he'd like to release it.

Nothing on current DT news, other than to say that once his commitments finish, he'd be 100% focused on DT, but in the next breath, he said they were getting to work after the new year.

I love that album but there is no way I'm going to watch that unless there are people I would want to see in a roundtable discussion.

Really glad the Manhattan Center show might come out. I was at that show and might still have the video boot of that. I remember it was filmed.

[TAC]

I sat through it. I was really interested in what MP might say, but the thing was pretty much all on WDADU.

He did say that he had a multi camera pro shot of the Manhattan Center '93 show in his archives and if he gets back involved in the official bootleg thingy, that he'd like to release it.

Nothing on current DT news, other than to say that once his commitments finish, he'd be 100% focused on DT, but in the next breath, he said they were getting to work after the new year.

I love that album but there is no way I'm going to watch that unless there are people I would want to see in a roundtable discussion.

Really glad the Manhattan Center show might come out. I was at that show and might still have the video boot of that. I remember it was filmed.

I sat through it, and at times it really was a slog, but I have not watched nor have had any interest in MP for the last decade or so, and he was really good in this. He provided a lot of detail about those days. If someone made an edited version of just MP talking, it'd be worth the watch.

[Schurftkut]

anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??

[gzarruk]

anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??

Honestly, I'd be happy with them just announcing the next LNFA release...

[gborland]

Those are interesting observations. I remember leaving the I&W Anniversary show - seated -  quite disappointed by the lack of energy in the room (unusually strange for Italy I must say) and a bit perplexed and worried about the choice of venue (a theatre...)

I think the problem has been a combination of factors: seated venues, click tracks, predictable setlists, lack of on-stage energy and showmanship, all contributing to poor crowd response and lacklustre shows.

[gmillerdrake]

i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT

but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.

MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal

[Stadler]

i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT

but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.

MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal

Point taken on the accuracy of the work, no argument there, but man, do we disagree on the footwork.  I find Mangini's bass drum work to be, as a general matter, annoying and intrusive.   I forget what song it was, but I was listening to one of the songs from The Astonishing as part of my ranking and I felt like I was going to have a seizure from the incessant machine gun of the bass pedal.   Athletically amazing, musically off-putting to this listener. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT

but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.

MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal

And that might explain why it is not a big deal for MP to have rotating setlists. He has a huge amount of freedom with relatively easier parts. Additionally, in fairness to the others, that is a huge part of why he is able to be such a showman. He isn't bound by what he played on the record and has great freedom to improvise because let's be honest, very few people are going to notice or care. If JP does not play what is on the record people will go apeshit.

[gzarruk]

When Jordan had Neal Morse as a guest on his Patreon talks (I watched the "free" excerpt on youtube), they talked about Mike and how he likes to add random songs, covers, rarities/whatever to the live sets and they both laughed at how easy it's for him to add that kind of stuff when he's "just" playing the rhythm parts. "We also have to play the right notes, not just the rhythms you know?"

[gmillerdrake]

i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT

but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.

MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal

Point taken on the accuracy of the work, no argument there, but man, do we disagree on the footwork.  I find Mangini's bass drum work to be, as a general matter, annoying and intrusive.   I forget what song it was, but I was listening to one of the songs from The Astonishing as part of my ranking and I felt like I was going to have a seizure from the incessant machine gun of the bass pedal.   Athletically amazing, musically off-putting to this listener.

I always heard him making a pretty conscious effort not to just blast a generic double bass beat....that he always seemed to add an oddity or hiccup or something. Not that he didn't ever just blast the normal double beat but I'll go down with the ship maintaining his footwork....especially in the live shows.....is far superior to MP's footwork.

[gmillerdrake]

i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT

but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.

MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal

And that might explain why it is not a big deal for MP to have rotating setlists. He has a huge amount of freedom with relatively easier parts. Additionally, in fairness to the others, that is a huge part of why he is able to be such a showman. He isn't bound by what he played on the record and has great freedom to improvise because let's be honest, very few people are going to notice or care. If JP does not play what is on the record people will go apeshit.

And just to be clear......I utterly love watching MP in a live setting.....it's a thing of beauty and always a great experience. But I have a personality tick/trait where it bugs the crap out of me when musicians lay down an incredible sound on record then take the easy way out in a live setting. So, anytime I see a vid or hear a recording of MP doing so....it sticks with me.

[DoctorAction]

anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??

That's a thought! 

[Logain Ablar]

anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??

That's a thought! 

I was thinking about this myself over the last few days. We’re getting pretty close now - only 5 more sleeps  , but it would be pretty cool to get a video. Not sure there would have been time to record some new music, with MP out on tour, but I’d be happily proved wrong about that.

[Kyo]

Point taken on the accuracy of the work, no argument there, but man, do we disagree on the footwork.  I find Mangini's bass drum work to be, as a general matter, annoying and intrusive.   I forget what song it was, but I was listening to one of the songs from The Astonishing as part of my ranking and I felt like I was going to have a seizure from the incessant machine gun of the bass pedal.   Athletically amazing, musically off-putting to this listener.

Let's not forget that no matter what MM plays, the bass drum is just obnoxiously loud on TA. At times it feels like the drums are mosty just snares and BDs and that can really get tiring.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).

I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated.  And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you.  Quite the opposite, actually.  I kind of agree with you.  I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part.  The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting.  But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.

I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S.  But I don't think the click is to blame.  I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full.

I do agree with this. On one hand, I do know that ultimately DT puts on a rock concert and energy from the audience is a key factor in the overall experience. I saw DT both in festival and theater settings and the energy was clearly lower and more mellow in the theater setting, which was all seated. I enjoyed the experience, but it did feel like going to a theater to watch a play. Not bad, of course, but definitely a different feel that, in some cases, kinda contradicts the whole rock experience which is very physical altogether.

The click track totally dialed the band into new levels of clarity and overall cohesiveness but at some points it does feel like they were being held back. Adrenaline is something that really influences the way you perform and interact with the music and Mike Portnoy was/is a totally key part in this, as his constant tempo changes did create an entirely different feel in the songs. Some of the Portnoy era performances were not Mangini-level precise but definitely felt more exciting and captivating to see/hear. As I've been saying, it's different levels of experience that I hope that meld together into a new kind of DT show with Portnoy's return.

BTW, nice talking to you once again.

[bosk1]

BTW, nice talking to you once again.

Likewise. 

Yeah, regarding the other stuff...I usually refrain from commenting on things I wish the band might do differently or areas where I might wish they made different decisions.  Ultimately, that kind of thing doesn't matter.  Everybody has tastes, and they can't appeal to every single person's tastes and preferences.  Nor should they try.  But in this instance, I think it was kind of a mistake/misstep to move toward mostly seated shows.  I get that they were intentionally going for a certain vibe, and there's merit to that.  But they are in fact a metal band, and a large portion of the audience has expectations about what a metal show is.  That isn't to say they shouldn't have seating--they should, and there are a LOT of fans that prefer seating.  But they should also have a standing area, because a lot of people would stand if there was a standing area, and it absolutely impacts the energy.  I get that people can stand if they want to, even where there are seats.  At the DreamSonic show I went to, people stood for Devin's and DT's sets.  And it was GREAT!  And it was also unexpected, because most people don't do that at seated DT shows.  And if you are in a seated area and a lot of people are sitting, there is a tendency to not stand because either (1) people behind you who want to sit will yell at you for blocking their view, or (2) you will feel self-conscious and not want to be "that guy" (or gal) who is blocking the views of the other people seated around you.  It just doesn't work to expect people to stand if there are seats.  And having all or the vast majority of the crowd sitting sucks a LOT of energy out of the experience.  The Astonishing is an exception to that because I think they wanted a specific experience for that specific tour, and that's fine.  But that tour also illustrates my point quite well, IMO.  I saw two shows in basically the same geographic region.  The first was a seated venue.  Great show.  But the crowd energy was nonexistent and everyone remained seated for almost the entire show.  At the second show, they played a theater where there is a section in front up against the stage that can either have seats or not, and the venue configured it so that it was a standing area (which I think they did by mistake).  In other words, it was typical for a rock/metal show in a venue that size, where you had the standing area/pit in front of the stage, and seated areas behind and on the sides.  The energy was MUCH different.  Despite the venue not being nearly full, it was much higher energy.  I really think they would benefit greatly from going back to that.  JP in particular really likes the vibe of the seated venue, but simultaneously feels that the energy has been lacking.  I hope he understands the connection and pushes for venues that are not completely seated. 

[TAC]

They have pretty much played the same venues in Boston pre and post MP. The two exceptions were the BTFW show, which we were standing for anyway, and the first leg of the View tour, which was a theater not all that different than where they normally play.