Taylor Swift

[KevShmev]

a criticism of Reputation that I do agree with is that as pop it was far from cutting edge sound (I tihnk Kev even mentioned earlier in the thread ther strength isn't being at the forefront of styles anyway), on the contrary it sounded like stuff Black Eyed Peas were doing almost 10 years before, in beats and production.   Even with folklore, when it came critics said it was basically aping Lana Del Rey.  So those are legit critiques but they don't really matter to my enjoyment.

I've heard almost all of her stuff now (except for the first album outside of a few songs) to realize that her doing the softer, hushed Lana Del Rey-type vocals wasn't really a new thing for her, but Folklore was really the first time where it was her main vocal style.

Besides, to quote Russell Corwin, artists influence other artists, that's part of the process.

[425]

I think I've said this before, but I really like the Reputation, and the dark vibe is part of why. Delicate is an especially lovely song.

[erwinrafael]

Bad Romance is definitely on the short list of pop stars that EVERYONE knows from the last 15 years.  It's like Uptown Funk.  If you don't know that song, you have probably been hanging out with Chuck Noland on his island.    I know she released an album a year or two ago, but I cannot remember the last song she had that was a biggie that you heard everywhere.  It feels like all of her biggies are from that first album (late 00s), while Taylor's most well known songs are more spread out over time.  Longevity, not just with releases but with acclaim and high visibility, is working largely in Taylor's favor.  As big as the new stars like Olivia Rodridgo and Billie Eilish are right now, will they be around and still dominant stars in 10 years? 5 years? Time will tell.

Generally speaking, any comparison to the Beatles does seem a bit absurd, I agree, but Billy Joel did say "that generation's Beatles," so I don't think he meant for it to be an exact comparison, especially since the music world is so vastly different now than what it was in the 60s.  The Beatles very likely would have broken the internet had it existed back then. 

Based on music streaming, Lady Gaga has significantly outplayed Taylor. Her biggest hit, Shallow from the A Star Is Born movie, has almost triple the streams of Taylor's biggest Spotify hit, Blank Space. Gaga's big hit two years ago, Rain On Me, also has more streams than Blank Space. She has lots of hits outside the first two albums: Born This Way, Million Reasons, Always Remember Us This Way.

[KevShmev]

Bad Romance is definitely on the short list of pop stars that EVERYONE knows from the last 15 years.  It's like Uptown Funk.  If you don't know that song, you have probably been hanging out with Chuck Noland on his island.    I know she released an album a year or two ago, but I cannot remember the last song she had that was a biggie that you heard everywhere.  It feels like all of her biggies are from that first album (late 00s), while Taylor's most well known songs are more spread out over time.  Longevity, not just with releases but with acclaim and high visibility, is working largely in Taylor's favor.  As big as the new stars like Olivia Rodridgo and Billie Eilish are right now, will they be around and still dominant stars in 10 years? 5 years? Time will tell.

Generally speaking, any comparison to the Beatles does seem a bit absurd, I agree, but Billy Joel did say "that generation's Beatles," so I don't think he meant for it to be an exact comparison, especially since the music world is so vastly different now than what it was in the 60s.  The Beatles very likely would have broken the internet had it existed back then. 

Based on music streaming, Lady Gaga has significantly outplayed Taylor. Her biggest hit, Shallow from the A Star Is Born movie, has almost triple the streams of Taylor's biggest Spotify hit, Blank Space. Gaga's big hit two years ago, Rain On Me, also has more streams than Blank Space. She has lots of hits outside the first two albums: Born This Way, Million Reasons, Always Remember Us This Way.

Spotify streams are an unreliable comparison in this instance, though, because Taylor pulled her songs off of Spotify from 2014 to 2017, so her songs garnered zero streams on that platform for a 3-year stretch.

If we look at views on YT, the video for Shake It Off now has over 3 billion views  , while the video for Bad Romance is just shy of 1.5 billion (in other words, Shake It Off has more than twice as many).  Blank Space is at 2.8 billion.

[Stadler]

a criticism of Reputation that I do agree with is that as pop it was far from cutting edge sound (I tihnk Kev even mentioned earlier in the thread ther strength isn't being at the forefront of styles anyway), on the contrary it sounded like stuff Black Eyed Peas were doing almost 10 years before, in beats and production.   Even with folklore, when it came critics said it was basically aping Lana Del Rey.  So those are legit critiques but they don't really matter to my enjoyment.

I've heard almost all of her stuff now (except for the first album outside of a few songs) to realize that her doing the softer, hushed Lana Del Rey-type vocals wasn't really a new thing for her, but Folklore was really the first time where it was her main vocal style.

Besides, to quote Russell Corwin, artists influence other artists, that's part of the process.

I don't know; I'm agnostic on this notion that "you have to do something no one's done before", or at least how that is measured.   Bruce Springsteen, who I've REALLY come to appreciate recently (I consider him America's greatest living musical artist) isn't reinventing the light bulb on every album.  But he's digging deeper, refining those things he DOES do to a core emotional level.   I think that's sometimes harder than twisting a knob to 8 when no one has really went past 4 before.   

[soupytwist]

Don't mind Swift or Gaga.....but Billy Joel can fuck right off. 

I wouldn't worry about which artist/song has the most views on youtube having some sort of relevance/meaning.....'Baby Shark Dance' is the most watched music video of all time (nearly 10 billion..). 

[Stadler]

a criticism of Reputation that I do agree with is that as pop it was far from cutting edge sound (I tihnk Kev even mentioned earlier in the thread ther strength isn't being at the forefront of styles anyway), on the contrary it sounded like stuff Black Eyed Peas were doing almost 10 years before, in beats and production.   Even with folklore, when it came critics said it was basically aping Lana Del Rey.  So those are legit critiques but they don't really matter to my enjoyment.

HARRY Styles?!?!?!?!

[Stadler]

I do have some sympathy for the guy still getting shit for dumping that one girl 10 years ago  Like come on leave me alone already!

I know, right?  He has to be thinking, "We dated for three months and I am still hearing about this crap."    It's just bad luck for him that All Too Well took on a life of its own.

If I understand correctly, though, they're friends now.  There was a piece in the Folklore live thing where she talked about it. She sent him a tweet congratulating him on his baby or some shit.  I think artists understand that.   I know for me, it's something I'm fascinated with: how artists can bare their souls that way. 

[XeRocks81]

new video(our girl's been busy!), directed by Blake Lively 

https://youtu.be/5UMCrq-bBCg

so yeah this "from the vault" track really is just a straight up country ballad, though not a sad one and the video makes it funnny, even.

[KevShmev]

I do have some sympathy for the guy still getting shit for dumping that one girl 10 years ago  Like come on leave me alone already!

I know, right?  He has to be thinking, "We dated for three months and I am still hearing about this crap."    It's just bad luck for him that All Too Well took on a life of its own.

If I understand correctly, though, they're friends now.  There was a piece in the Folklore live thing where she talked about it. She sent him a tweet congratulating him on his baby or some shit.  I think artists understand that.   I know for me, it's something I'm fascinated with: how artists can bare their souls that way.

I think that was about Joe Jonas, not Jake Gyllenhaal.  Jonas' wife, Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark from Game of Thrones), is a big Taylor fan, and I think they are all friends now.  She even referenced it at the start of the last verse in Invisible String:

"Cold was the steel of my axe to grind
For the boys who broke my heart
Now I send their babies presents"

[KevShmev]

Don't mind Swift or Gaga.....but Billy Joel can fuck right off. 

I wouldn't worry about which artist/song has the most views on youtube having some sort of relevance/meaning.....'Baby Shark Dance' is the most watched music video of all time (nearly 10 billion..). 

Hey now, be prepared for some major pushback to any and all slander of Billy Joel. 

[KevShmev]

new video(our girl's been busy!), directed by Blake Lively 

https://youtu.be/5UMCrq-bBCg

so yeah this "from the vault" track really is just a straight up country ballad, though not a sad one and the video makes it funnny, even.

Will watch later. 

[Zook]

I do have some sympathy for the guy still getting shit for dumping that one girl 10 years ago  Like come on leave me alone already!

I know, right?  He has to be thinking, "We dated for three months and I am still hearing about this crap."    It's just bad luck for him that All Too Well took on a life of its own.

If I understand correctly, though, they're friends now.  There was a piece in the Folklore live thing where she talked about it. She sent him a tweet congratulating him on his baby or some shit.  I think artists understand that.   I know for me, it's something I'm fascinated with: how artists can bare their souls that way.

I think that was about Joe Jonas, not Jake Gyllenhaal.  Jonas' wife, Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark from Game of Thrones), is a big Taylor fan, and I think they are all friends now.  She even referenced it at the start of the last verse in Invisible String:

"Cold was the steel of my axe to grind
For the boys who broke my heart
Now I send their babies presents"

That doesn't rhyme. Terrible songwriter.

[Stadler]

I do have some sympathy for the guy still getting shit for dumping that one girl 10 years ago  Like come on leave me alone already!

I know, right?  He has to be thinking, "We dated for three months and I am still hearing about this crap."    It's just bad luck for him that All Too Well took on a life of its own.

If I understand correctly, though, they're friends now.  There was a piece in the Folklore live thing where she talked about it. She sent him a tweet congratulating him on his baby or some shit.  I think artists understand that.   I know for me, it's something I'm fascinated with: how artists can bare their souls that way.

I think that was about Joe Jonas, not Jake Gyllenhaal.  Jonas' wife, Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark from Game of Thrones), is a big Taylor fan, and I think they are all friends now.  She even referenced it at the start of the last verse in Invisible String:

"Cold was the steel of my axe to grind
For the boys who broke my heart
Now I send their babies presents"

You're right on that.  I did think there was something with Jake, too, though.  My memory isn't always what it should be! 

[soupytwist]

I wonder if Taylor have ever thought, all these bad relationships I keep getting into  have one thing in common..........me.

[MirrorMask]

Are all her songs even autobiographical as it seems? I mean, I'm not that well versed in everything pre-Folklore, but I know she had many albums and these albums are all with a normal number of songs, 10 or 15 or so. I don't think even all the songs are about breakups or ex boyfriends but she can't have had THAT MANY boyfriends especially when she was younger, could she? I'd wager that every album can have at least 5 love songs, she started young, how did she manage to be dumped 20 times when she was 23 or something? 

I mean, if everything is really biographical, you could trace a complete history of every fling she had just by listening to her songs 

[KevShmev]

That doesn't rhyme. Terrible songwriter.

 

[KevShmev]

You're right on that.  I did think there was something with Jake, too, though.  My memory isn't always what it should be! 

You and me both. 

[KevShmev]

I wonder if Taylor have ever thought, all these bad relationships I keep getting into  have one thing in common..........me.

There is something to be said for that, but hey she has been in the same one now for like five years and seems pretty happy, so maybe she figured it out.  It is not unusual for humans to date a lot in their late teens and early to mid 20s. 

[KevShmev]

Are all her songs even autobiographical as it seems? I mean, I'm not that well versed in everything pre-Folklore, but I know she had many albums and these albums are all with a normal number of songs, 10 or 15 or so. I don't think even all the songs are about breakups or ex boyfriends but she can't have had THAT MANY boyfriends especially when she was younger, could she? I'd wager that every album can have at least 5 love songs, she started young, how did she manage to be dumped 20 times when she was 23 or something? 

I mean, if everything is really biographical, you could trace a complete history of every fling she had just by listening to her songs 

Folklore and Evermore, her two 2020 albums, were both largely written about fictional narratives, although I think she still dropped in little things from her own experiences.  She said a while back that she likes writing about relationships in general, and lets face it, it is her brand, so even if she stays happy in her current one, I am sure she will find things to write about in regards to them. 

[XeRocks81]

Are all her songs even autobiographical as it seems? I mean, I'm not that well versed in everything pre-Folklore, but I know she had many albums and these albums are all with a normal number of songs, 10 or 15 or so. I don't think even all the songs are about breakups or ex boyfriends but she can't have had THAT MANY boyfriends especially when she was younger, could she? I'd wager that every album can have at least 5 love songs, she started young, how did she manage to be dumped 20 times when she was 23 or something? 

I mean, if everything is really biographical, you could trace a complete history of every fling she had just by listening to her songs 

I know starting with Lover and especially on Folklore and Evermore she's explicitely said that she now writes more about characters.  Similar to what Bruce Springsteen has always done.  Some characters may be inpired by real life people but her strenght is in storytelling through song and storytelling implies some degree of fiction

edit:  what Kev said

[Stadler]

I wonder if Taylor have ever thought, all these bad relationships I keep getting into  have one thing in common..........me.

There is something to be said for that, but hey she has been in the same one now for like five years and seems pretty happy, so maybe she figured it out.  It is not unusual for humans to date a lot in their late teens and early to mid 20s.

So my daughter is a HUGE Taylor Swift fan; it's her favorite artist by a long shot.   And we've talked about this, both seriously and jokingly, and I think it's like anything else; you write about the EMOTIONS you know, but that doesn't mean each and every event is the exact truth.  There's a whole world out there that pours over each word, parsing through if the relationship with Harry Styles was a PR stunt or actually a deeper connection that we'll see more of in the future.   Look, Bruce Springsteen has made a career out of the stories of the working man, and while he arguably never worked a day in his life, even the parts that are true are tapping into a feeling more than anything else.

[Skeever]

I wonder if Taylor have ever thought, all these bad relationships I keep getting into  have one thing in common..........me.

There is something to be said for that, but hey she has been in the same one now for like five years and seems pretty happy, so maybe she figured it out.  It is not unusual for humans to date a lot in their late teens and early to mid 20s.

I felt something similar about Ben Folds, and it's made me less interested in a lot of his music for me quite honestly.
He specializes in songs about relationships as well, many of them relationships that have gone wrong... but when you've been married 5 times? Suddenly those lyrics that sounded over the top and somewhat spastic have a different turn, like maybe it's not sarcasm and maybe it is just Ben that's just a huge asshole.

[MoraWintersoul]

I wonder if Taylor have ever thought, all these bad relationships I keep getting into  have one thing in common..........me.

There is something to be said for that, but hey she has been in the same one now for like five years and seems pretty happy, so maybe she figured it out.  It is not unusual for humans to date a lot in their late teens and early to mid 20s.

Even before that, she was in two relationships (between 1989 and Rep) that she didn't write about at all. So you know!

[KevShmev]

I wonder if Taylor have ever thought, all these bad relationships I keep getting into  have one thing in common..........me.

There is something to be said for that, but hey she has been in the same one now for like five years and seems pretty happy, so maybe she figured it out.  It is not unusual for humans to date a lot in their late teens and early to mid 20s.

So my daughter is a HUGE Taylor Swift fan; it's her favorite artist by a long shot.   And we've talked about this, both seriously and jokingly, and I think it's like anything else; you write about the EMOTIONS you know, but that doesn't mean each and every event is the exact truth.  There's a whole world out there that pours over each word, parsing through if the relationship with Harry Styles was a PR stunt or actually a deeper connection that we'll see more of in the future.   Look, Bruce Springsteen has made a career out of the stories of the working man, and while he arguably never worked a day in his life, even the parts that are true are tapping into a feeling more than anything else.

Very true.  I am sure Taylor exaggerates certain events and stories for effect, as she obviously has a very creative mind.  It's like taking one little thing that happened and blowing it up into a song and building around that one little thing.

I think lyrically where she really excels is her ability to express a lot of a story into compact spaces.  Take a line like, "You made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter," in Mine.  That sums up the dynamic of three different people in a single sentence, which is just damn good writing. 

[MoraWintersoul]

I also can't really judge Taylor Swift for writing some sad songs about three or four boyfriends tops when all of my favorite Brian May songs are about him cheating on his first wife

[KevShmev]

Damn, that video for I Bet You Think About Me sure was red.   Very nicely done. That shot of Taylor with the cake all over her face is destined to become a meme (if it isn't already).

Even though Twitter can be a clown show (okay, IS a clown show most of the time), some of the Gyllenhaal and John Mayer tweets were cracking me up today, as the fans got Speak Now trending after some supposed clues made them think that is the new TV coming.  This one made me LOL for real:

i hope john mayer knows that what jake gyllenhaal is going through right now is minor compared to the public crucifixion that’s coming for him after speak now tv drops

 

[XeRocks81]

I have fun with that stuff too, so long as it's just that but there's always some hardcores who take it too far.   

[KevShmev]

Very true.

Anyway, back to the music and away from the drama, some of this "new" from the vault stuff is great.  As a sucker for a catchy pop song, I am enjoying the hell out of The Very First Night and Message in a Bottle, Run is really nice (even with Ed Sheeran on it ), and Nothing New is nothing short of magnificent. 

[Stadler]

I also can't really judge Taylor Swift for writing some sad songs about three or four boyfriends tops when all of my favorite Brian May songs are about him cheating on his first wife

Wait... what??     

[MirrorMask]

I also can't really judge Taylor Swift for writing some sad songs about three or four boyfriends tops when all of my favorite Brian May songs are about him cheating on his first wife

Wait... what??     

I don't about songs plural, but Too Much Love will Kill You is relatively famous (and a very great song) and is definitively about the end of his marriage. "Too much love will kill you if you can't make up your mind, torn between the lover and the one you left behind..."

[MoraWintersoul]

I also can't really judge Taylor Swift for writing some sad songs about three or four boyfriends tops when all of my favorite Brian May songs are about him cheating on his first wife

Wait... what??     

Am I about to ruin some songs for you

Yes, MirrorMask is correct that TMLWKY is about Brian feeling guilty about his very public affair and later divorce. In addition to that, we have:

Now I'm Here: Yes, really! Had an easier time finding this screenshot on Tumblr than on Brian's ancient massive website, here's the entire story

It's Late: The lyrics really speak for themselves. Brian does his usual hedging to explain this when he says "it was gathered from many people's experiences on tour" but, come on

If we're including just songs about partying during the band's Munich period and possibly or possibly not seeing loose women, Dragon Attack and Dancer. Could be about just memories from tour, but they are very period-typical and correspond well to what he was saying in interviews about how the band's marriages and long term relationships really started crumbling during that period.

Let Me In Your Heart Again: Song about feeling estranged from your long term lover from 1984, so I'm guessing this is the emotional background to him pulling the plug on his marriage later.

Scandal: Straight up about the fallout from Brian separating from his wife, only the subtext is about Freddie being hunted by tabloids.

I Can't Live With You: more self-explanatory lyrics, considering the time period

From the first solo album, Love Token (blunt as hell) and Let Your Heart Rule Your Head. From the second, Why Don't We Try Again also originates from the divorce period and is probably about killing the affair, then trying to reconnect. And of course, if we're taking unsubstantiated rumors (that Brian hasn't tried to squash) about how he may have had a midlife crisis and then cheated on his second wife (then girlfriend) in the late 90's with his assistant who was helping him put the second album together, Wilderness and Another World are two beautiful songs which have some, uh, interesting sets of lyrics.

In conclusion, Taylor Swift doesn't go as deep into her failed relationships as some other writers do

[KevShmev]

In conclusion, Taylor Swift doesn't go as deep into her failed relationships as some other writers do

Probably not, but in addition to being a woman (women will always face more unfair scrutiny when it comes to serial dating than men), she dated a lot of "names" in her younger years, so that will always draw attention.  If she had been dating nobodies and writing songs about them, that narrative likely never sticks to her, but Joe Jonas, Jake Gyllenhaal and John Mayer aren't nobodies, so there you have it. 

[MirrorMask]

Does she flat out say whom the songs are about, and confirms it in interviews, or people put two and two together since, as you just said, it's all famous people?

[MoraWintersoul]

She was extremely blunt about "clues" and hinting who the specific songs were about for a while, at least up to Red. That's just a teenager being a teenager though, except her equivalent of vaguebooking was writing a fairly transparent song.