Taylor Swift

[KevShmev]

Speaking of which, to those of you who are fans, how do you rate Taylor as a lyricist? 

I think she is most excellent.  I always say that my favorite lyricists are the ones where I often notice them in a good way when listening to the songs.  My top 3 is pretty set in stone at this point - Neil Peart (Rush), Roger Waters (Pink Floyd/solo) and Ben Gibbard (Death Cab for Cutie/The Postal Service) - but I might put Taylor now in my next tier. 

The below lyric from Champagne Problems is one of my favorites (such a clever way of saying, "he held the door open for me and gave me his coat to keep me warm.").

Your Midas touch on the Chevy door
November flush and your flannel cure"

And of course I absolutely love the lyric, "I don't like that falling feels like flying till the bone crush," from Gold Rush.

Sure, she has her fair share of lightweight pop lyrics (ME, the bridge in Shake It Off, We Are Never Ever Ever Ever Ever Getting Back Together), but she has more than enough gems for me to rate her highly.  Like the others I listed above, the lyrics stand out to me in a good way in the great majority of her songs every time I listen.

[XeRocks81]

"Right where you left me" is a great recent lyric.  "All Too Well" is an all timer in my book.

But while she has great individual lines her biggest strenght as a lyricist is obviously the storytelling aspect.

[MirrorMask]

I still know 3-4 songs outside of the acoustic albums, but the lyrics on Folklore and Evermore are great.

I love all the little connections in the trilogy of Cardigan / August / Betty, like the mentioning of the cardigan and the "she said James get in, let's drive" moment seen from the perspective of both characters.

I also became moderately obsessed with The Lakes (Now my tablet has a background image of Windermere), I love the "I'm fed up with all you annoying losers, I'm gonna piss off into the nature, so long" message, it reasonates with everyone who has a lovely place in the nature they like to go to.

No Body, No Crime is also a cool little dark story, with just four lines she manages to explain how she will get away with murder, that's brilliant.

It's also funny how she casually drops some F-bombs here and there, she's all sweet and delicate talking about the girl, "she would have made such a lovely bride" and then out of nowhere "what a shame she's fucked in the head" 

[Stadler]

I have to really think who my top three lyricists are.   That's a great question.   

Candidates:
Fish
Peart
Banks (Tony, from Genesis)
Butler (Geezer, from Sabbath)
Morse (Neal, from, well, Neal Morse)
Gillan (Ian, from Deep Purple)
Jagger

The problem is, all have great examples of their lyrics, but all have some pretty strong duds as well.

I like lyrics from Steven Tyler and David Lee Roth as well (I think ADKOT is one of the best albums I've ever heard from a lyrical perspective).

Taylor Swift certainly fits into that category.

[KevShmev]

Eh, Roth's lyrics are interesting considering the style, but putting him in the conversation with best lyricists is like putting Fast Times at Ridgemont High in the same tier with The Godfather II when talking about cinematic masterpieces.   (yes, I realize we are talking about favorites, not best, per se )

I do think The Lakes is one of Taylor's best as well, and I forgot to mention This Is Me Trying yesterday. That whole second verse is just next level lyric writing.

[soupytwist]

Lived the first 13 years of my life in 4 miles from Windermere, can confirm it's a place you go to die - it's basically one huge retirement home

[MirrorMask]

Lived the first 13 years of my life in 4 miles from Windermere, can confirm it's a place you go to die - it's basically one huge retirement home

I think only old people can afford houses there  but it must have been cool to have at hand so many nice hikes and landscapes!

[soupytwist]

Lived the first 13 years of my life in 4 miles from Windermere, can confirm it's a place you go to die - it's basically one huge retirement home

I think only old people can afford houses there  but it must have been cool to have at hand so many nice hikes and landscapes!

It's got a bit (well a lot) of a reputation for snobbery, my Mum didn't like living there at all.  Depict only living 4 miles away in Staveley we very rarely went into Windermere itself.  The Lake District itself has some nice parts though, but I guess when you grow up somewhere it loses it's appeal somewhat?  I've only been back once since we left (32 years ago!).

[MirrorMask]

Oh yeah, that's true for everyone I guess. I live right outside Milan, before internet orders my go-to place to buy metal CDs was a shop in the underground premises right beneath the cathedral, a magnificent and awesome white gothic big church. There are people who come from all over the world to see it, and often I was just going in that underground shop and coming home, without even bothering to take a couple of steps to go to the surface and admire the church. I live here, I've always seen it, it's there within reach whenever I feel like seeing it. Don't need to make a point to see it on purpouse.

[Stadler]

Invisible String.    GTFO.  What a perfect meld of all that makes her, her.   Grand insight into the human condition ("Isn't it just so pretty to think, all along there was some invisible string tying you to me"), blunt personal honesty ("cold was the steel of my axe to grind for the boys who broke my heart"),  stark observation ("Bold was the waitress.... she said I looked like an American singer") and yet never losing the core emotion at hand ("Something wrapped all of my past mistakes in barbed wire, chains around my demons, wool to brave the seasons, one single thread of gold tied me to you").

Big fan of "Mad Woman" too.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, Invisible String is a good one.  I like how she follows the "cold was the steel of my axe to grind for the boys who broke my heart" line with "now I send their baby's presents," which apparently references her sending a baby gift to Joe Jonas (whom she dated when she was like 18) and Sophie Turner (a hardcore Swiftie) following the birth of their first child.

[MirrorMask]

Big fan of "Mad Woman" too.

Indeed! great argument against the "bitches be crazy" thing. Also, one of the most memorable and catchy choruses of the album.... "every time you call me crazy I get more crazy, what about that?"

[KevShmev]

Big fan of "Mad Woman" too.

Indeed! great argument against the "bitches be crazy" thing. Also, one of the most memorable and catchy choruses of the album.... "every time you call me crazy I get more crazy, what about that?"

I like the lyrics in that one a lot as well, although the f-bomb in the first verse is the one on the two 2020 albums that I feel was a bit unnecessary (all of the others seem to fit well).  Given the nature of the song, I get why she opted to use it there, that said.

Marjorie is another noteworthy one.  As usual, she knocks it out of the park with the bridge:

The autumn chill that wakes me up
You loved the amber skies so much
Long limbs and frozen swims
You'd always go past where our feet could touch
And I complained the whole way there
The car ride back and up the stairs
I should've asked you questions
I should've asked you how to be
Asked you to write it down for me
Should've kept every grocery store receipt
'Cause every scrap of you would be taken from me
Watched as you signed your name Marjorie
All your closets of backlogged dreams
And how you left them all to me

[KevShmev]

Because this thread was due for a bump, I shall point out that Evermore has returned to number 1 on the Billboard 200 charts, largely thanks to the vinyl becoming available last week (I bought two at Target! One for me and one for my niece), which now gives her 53 cumulative weeks at number 1 on the top albums chart, which is now 3rd all-time behind only the Beatles and Elvis.  She will never catch the Beatles, but, Elvis, she is coming for you next.

[MirrorMask]

Meanwhile I got Love Story stuck in my head, brilliant 

[Dream Team]

Eh, Roth's lyrics are interesting considering the style, but putting him in the conversation with best lyricists is like putting Fast Times at Ridgemont High in the same tier with The Godfather II when talking about cinematic masterpieces.   (yes, I realize we are talking about favorites, not best, per se )

I do think The Lakes is one of Taylor's best as well, and I forgot to mention This Is Me Trying yesterday. That whole second verse is just next level lyric writing.

Whoa. I’ve had people argue with me over and over that you can’t separate “best” from “favorite”. Are people finally coming around? 

[KevShmev]

Meanwhile I got Love Story stuck in my head, brilliant 

Baby, just say yes.

[nick_z]

Love Story is great. Can't go wrong with that one :-)

What's the consensus on Red in these halls? If I remember correctly, the first two proper singles were "We are never ever ever ever etc." and "I knew you were trouble"  -  it was a bit of a statement about moving away from her country-pop roots. I found (and still find) the former annoying, but the latter is kinda fun. But other than that, the album is plenty varied and I really like it. Opener State of Grace is excellent. So are All Too Well and Begin Again.

As for what came next - 1989 completed the transition and is probably my favorite. That and Lover are a pair of classic pop albums for the 2010s.

She's definitely on a roll, as I agree with the general opinion here on Folklore/Evermore being really good.

[KevShmev]

What's the consensus on Red in these halls? If I remember correctly, the first two proper singles were "We are never ever ever ever etc." and "I knew you were trouble"  -  it was a bit of a statement about moving away from her country-pop roots. I found (and still find) the former annoying, but the latter is kinda fun. But other than that, the album is plenty varied and I really like it. Opener State of Grace is excellent. So are All Too Well and Begin Again.

I still haven't heard the first and third albums, outside of a few songs from each, but Red is my 3rd favorite right now after Evermore and Folklore.  It has a lot of variety, has some of her best songs on it (All Too Well, Treacherous, State of Grace, Red), and has a bit of grit to the mix that I kinda like.  That is one where I feel like "Taylor's Version" will be too clean and some of the character of the original will be lost.

As for what came next - 1989 completed the transition and is probably my favorite. 

1989 is mostly great, but I got tired of Blank Space pretty quickly and now find it to be pretty skippable.  Out of the Woods, Style, Wildest Dreams, Clean, New Romantics, Wonderland, I Wish You Would...all insanely catchy pop tunes.  And you have to be dead inside not to enjoy Shake It Off on some level.

That and Lover are a pair of classic pop albums for the 2010s.

Lover needed to lose a bunch of songs, like I Forgot That You Existed (what a terrible song; how was that chosen as track 1??), but there is plenty of great stuff on there. 

She's definitely on a roll, as I agree with the general opinion here on Folklore/Evermore being really good.

No, no, not really good...great. Both albums. 

[nick_z]

1989 is mostly great, but I got tired of Blank Space pretty quickly and now find it to be pretty skippable.  Out of the Woods, Style, Wildest Dreams, Clean, New Romantics, Wonderland, I Wish You Would...all insanely catchy pop tunes.  And you have to be dead inside not to enjoy Shake It Off on some level.

Agreed on Shake It Off  But I still enjoy Blank Space. And Out of the Woods is probably my favorite on the record.

Lover needed to lose a bunch of songs, like I Forgot That You Existed (what a terrible song; how was that chosen as track 1??), but there is plenty of great stuff on there. 

Yes, Lover does suffer a bit from that. I Forgot That You Existed - not so good. Also, Me! is pretty annoying. Love the mood of certain songs like The Archer, or Cornelia Street.

She's definitely on a roll, as I agree with the general opinion here on Folklore/Evermore being really good.

No, no, not really good...great. Both albums. 

Ok, fine, great 

[nobloodyname]

Lover needed to lose a bunch of songs, like I Forgot That You Existed (what a terrible song; how was that chosen as track 1??), but there is plenty of great stuff on there. 

NOOOOOOO! It's brilliant It's fun, ballsy, catchy and beautifully delivered. Sets the tone for the album nicely. But then you don't like Me!, either, so ya know...

[Stadler]

Love Story is great. Can't go wrong with that one :-)

What's the consensus on Red in these halls? If I remember correctly, the first two proper singles were "We are never ever ever ever etc." and "I knew you were trouble"  -  it was a bit of a statement about moving away from her country-pop roots. I found (and still find) the former annoying, but the latter is kinda fun. But other than that, the album is plenty varied and I really like it. Opener State of Grace is excellent. So are All Too Well and Begin Again.

As for what came next - 1989 completed the transition and is probably my favorite. That and Lover are a pair of classic pop albums for the 2010s.

She's definitely on a roll, as I agree with the general opinion here on Folklore/Evermore being really good.

My daughter actually asked me to listen to Red abuot two weeks ago and I put it on while at work.  I'm not a huge fan of "We Are Never..." so was predisposed to NOT like it, but I was well and truly blown away.  State Of Grace, All Too Well... wonderful songs.   I ended up ripping it onto my iPod.  I still don't like "We Are Never..." but this will not be the first record I love that has one song that doesn't click with me.

[KevShmev]

But then you don't like Me!, either, so ya know...

I wouldn't I dislike it, but I am really not a fan either.  It's for what it is, but a fluffy pop tune, but it's hard to wrap your arms around a song with a lyric like, "You can't spell awesome with me," especially when she has shown she is capable of so much more lyrically.

My daughter actually asked me to listen to Red abuot two weeks ago and I put it on while at work.  I'm not a huge fan of "We Are Never..." so was predisposed to NOT like it, but I was well and truly blown away.  State Of Grace, All Too Well... wonderful songs.   I ended up ripping it onto my iPod.  I still don't like "We Are Never..." but this will not be the first record I love that has one song that doesn't click with me.

We Are Never... is pure silliness, but literally everything in the song is a hook, from the acoustic guitar, to the vocal melodies in the verses, to the "ewww-ew-ew-ew- ewww!"s, to the chorus, to the bridge.  I don't got out my way to hear it, but I don't skip it if I turn on Red.

[Zook]

We Are Never is definitely one of the weaker tracks on Red, maybe even my least favorite, but it's still better than both Reputation and Lover in their entirety and Bad Blood.

[XeRocks81]

both Reputation and Lover have plenty of great songs, she just picked the worst ones as singles for some reason, lol (except the Lover title track, it’s a beautiful song)

[Stadler]

I would kindly ask anyone that is ready to knock "Lover", the song, to listen to her performance on SNL and THEN pass judgment.   Her and a piano, looking and sounding absolutely mesmerizing.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I still say she should do a stadium tour next year in the States where she does three nights in each city, where she features Folklore one night, Evermore another night, and Lover the other night, that way she can max out playing songs from all three albums that she has yet to tour on AND still be able to play plenty of older songs.  The logistics of locking down three nights in a stadium in a lot of cities might be not easy, but I am pretty sure she'd have no problem selling them all out (given how fanatical her fanbase is).

She could do that and do the same song over several nights in the same city, but different arrangements.  She could do Lover at the piano by herself one night and then the album arrangement the next.  Would be neat.

[nick_z]

I would kindly ask anyone that is ready to knock "Lover", the song, to listen to her performance on SNL and THEN pass judgment.   Her and a piano, looking and sounding absolutely mesmerizing.

I actually really like the "Lover" (the song) in its original version too :-)

[nick_z]

I still haven't heard the first and third albums, outside of a few songs from each, but Red is my 3rd favorite right now after Evermore and Folklore.  It has a lot of variety, has some of her best songs on it (All Too Well, Treacherous, State of Grace, Red), and has a bit of grit to the mix that I kinda like.  That is one where I feel like "Taylor's Version" will be too clean and some of the character of the original will be lost.

I am not super-familiar with her very first (listened to it a couple of times a while back)...as for Speak Now, I'd say if you enjoy Fearless you should like this one too. Not a huge departure, at that point. Very pleasant listen, although I generally prefer what came next.

[Zook]

both Reputation and Lover have plenty of great songs, she just picked the worst ones as singles for some reason, lol (except the Lover title track, it’s a beautiful song)

I disagree. I've had the misfortune of hearing those albums in their entirety. Which singles were chosen has nothing to do with it. Shake it Off grew on me. Still not a favorite, but it's not so bad. I tried to like Bad Blood, but it just kept getting worse. The rest of 1989 is really good to really great. Look What You Made Me Do was an edge filled cringefest. Such a disappointment. Maybe the next single with be better. Nope. Now my wife has the album. What the fuck happened? Every song is garbage! Oh, this song is pretty stupid, but it's not so bad. Ok, back to the garbage. It can't get worse that this. Cue Lover. Ok, ok, well this first single isn't good, could be worse. More of the same from the next single. At least it's not forced Edge Lord Taylor like the last album. Enter the full album. WHY?! Is the title track bad? No, but there's no playback value. I still have to hear it constantly at work, and home or the car. The Archer goes absolutely nowhere, but if it did, it might be a decent song. Not all the songs on Lover are terrible, but they just have no playback value. I have no desire to hear them again. I have no desire to listen to Folklore or Evermore (mostly because I've already heard them too much), but holy shit those albums are a gazillion times better than the previous two.

And I can't stand when she does that fake laughing in a song. It's the worst on "Nice Things", but the spoken word at the end of Stay Stay Stay is so cringy, I had to make an edit taking it out, using the karaoke track.

I don't mind when Bruce Dickinson does it because it's more for theatrics, but Taylor just sounds forced and fake when she does it.

[KevShmev]

See, I don't see that as fake. I see that as just her personality coming out. She seems to be a fairly silly person (just look at the videos for Delirious or We Are Never Ever...), and the laughing is just the silly part of her personality being injected into the song.  Not that I think This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things is great (similar to ME, I am sure it is great fun live, but not something I want to hear regularly), but the laughing seems appropriate.  And if nothing else, you have to appreciate her treating Kayne West like a child in that song ("because you break them, I had to take them away"). 

As for singles, how Cruel Summer wasn't a single has to be the biggest mystery in her history.  I mean, WTF? 

[Zook]

See, I don't see that as fake. I see that as just her personality coming out. She seems to be a fairly silly person (just look at the videos for Delirious or We Are Never Ever...), and the laughing is just the silly part of her personality being injected into the song.  Not that I think This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things is great (similar to ME, I am sure it is great fun live, but not something I want to hear regularly), but the laughing seems appropriate.  And if nothing else, you have to appreciate her treating Kayne West like a child in that song ("because you break them, I had to take them away"). 

As for singles, how Cruel Summer wasn't a single has to be the biggest mystery in her history.  I mean, WTF? 

It just doesn't sound like genuine laughter to me. I doubt when she was recording the vocals that she just burst into laughter on the fly. It sounds planned for the content of the song, on both songs.

[KevShmev]

I agree in regards to ...Nice Things, but that doesn't make it fake, just a written part of the song.  The part at the end of Stay, Stay, Stay totally sounds spontaneous.

What about the little laugh in Shake It Off after "I go on too many dates"?  That sounds like a written part as well, not spontaneous, but fake?  Nah.

[Zook]

I agree in regards to ...Nice Things, but that doesn't make it fake, just a written part of the song.  The part at the end of Stay, Stay, Stay totally sounds spontaneous.

What about the little laugh in Shake It Off after "I go on too many dates"?  That sounds like a written part as well, not spontaneous, but fake?  Nah.

Nah, Stay's laugh is scripted. I'm an expert on these things. I assure you.

When I mean fake, I mean it was forced and the part in question didn't actually make her laugh. So if it was written, "ok, after this line, I'm gonna add a little laugh" wouldn't that make it fake?

[KevShmev]

Using that standard, anything a musician writes beforehand and then sings or plays in a song is therefore fake, right?