Taylor Swift

[XeRocks81]

I think award shows with big productions are often using backing tracks or straight up lipsync because the pace is so quick and things need to go off without a hitch.  If not you get things like that Adele snafu where she was off key.   To me it’s no big deal, folks like Eddie Trunk need to get over it.

[KevShmev]

Trunk will still be yelling at clouds when he is 80 and donning his ragged Slayer t-shirt.

I forget who it was, but it might have been Megan Thee Stallion, but in and between all the hip-gyrating and breast swaying, she blew the transition and her line started a beat and a half before the mic made it up and her lips started moving.

I don't think Harry Styles was lip-synching though.  His performance was early on when they had the "Jools Holland" stage setup, not one of the later dance numbers (which are always suspect).

I have zero issues with stars lip synching, or needing help from backing tracks, when doing dance numbers and whatnot.  I don't care how good a shape you are in, all of that moving and running and whatever will affect your singing, and if you want a little help so your vocals don't sound out of breath and weak during a visual spectacle, so be it.  Circling back to Taylor, based on what I have read, it sounds like she always sings during his normal concerts when not doing dance numbers, like when doing songs at the piano, but for the songs where she is dancing and moving a lot, she will utilize a backing track and sing along with it.

[Zook]

Lip syncing is insulting to me.

If Bruce Dickinson can run around stage while singing, I think dancers in better shape can as well. I'd rather listen to someone slightly out of breath really performing than being lied to by phonies. Especially how much they charge for tickets.

[The Realm]

Zook - I agree totally, very well said. If you can't sing live, then don't bother performing live.

[KevShmev]

Does that apply to Dream Theater now as well?  They use backing tracks now for certain songs, so they should not even bother playing them anymore since they cannot sing them live?

But then that opens up another can of worms in that, if a band cannot perform a song in full live, meaning they have to use certain pre-recorded parts, should they not play that song live either? 

Look, I am not advocating lip synching per se, merely saying I understand why some do it on occasion.  If there is a singer that sucks live and always has to lip synch, then, yeah, get them off the stage.

But hey, I have said for years that live albums ought to be live albums, warts and all, but if almost every band under the sun is going to fix mistakes and whatnot from the performances to make a live album not a 100% live performance, then I can't pretend to be too outraged about someone pretending to sing on occasion. 

Selective outrage is the thing in 2021, though, I get it.

[Zook]

James is really singing though. That's why I don't enjoy them live anymore.

[KevShmev]

Well, same here (the DVD's anyway, I can still enjoy the heck out of going to the actual concerts), but that's a whole different conversation...

[Zook]

And backing tracks aren't the same as lip syncing. I think backing tracks are fine for recreating harmonies that otherwise can't be reproduced live, especially when the other band members won't or can't harmonize. But downright fake singing to a playback of the studio track is just dishonest and shitty.

I guess in some instances singers would record a one take and lip sync to that, but that's still unacceptable to me. It's even worse when the people with instruments are faking it.

Taylor sounded way too polished in her performance. You'd think someone of her caliber could push for live, but maybe she didn't care and was just being compliant.

[KevShmev]

If that was all lip syching the other day, it wasn't to the studio versions. I have listened to Folklore and Evermore enough now to know that those vocals were a little different. Certain inflections and tones were not the same on many occasions, so it is possible she recorded a fresh take of each song in the medley and then sang along to that backing track and it is possible she did lip synch to the fresh take.  Doesn't take away from her at all, IMO.  I am sure I am fanboying a bit since I am still in the honeymoon phase of getting into her music, but she has taken so much unfair criticism over the years that I am fine with not giving a crap if she lip synched at the freaking Grammy's. 

Sidenote: I am bit stunned by a relative of mine who definitely identifies as a feminist, but is totally irrational about Taylor Swift (he rolls his eyes at any mention of her) and buys the "she has a team to write all of her songs for her" narrative.  I would think he'd be embracing a female musician of this caliber being so successful; it's rather surprising.  No clue where the "she doesn't write her own songs" narrative came from and why it started, but it's hilarious that some ignore the facts and still cling to that narrative.

[The Realm]

I really don't think a lead vocalist should lip synch. I think the use of other backing tracks is ok, but not my personal preference. I understand awards shows can be different to live concerts, which I think is why some artists do lip synch for 'tv performances'. I don't agree with this approach but you can see why it may happen.

I haven't seen the Taylor Swift performance at the grammys but I have seen Taylor Swift live in concert. I'd like to think she was singing live the whole time. She also did have a live band on stage and a number of backing vocalists/dancers, so enough 'live backing' to not need any actual backing tracks but I guess there could have still been some....

[Stadler]

Lip syncing is insulting to me.

If Bruce Dickinson can run around stage while singing, I think dancers in better shape can as well. I'd rather listen to someone slightly out of breath really performing than being lied to by phonies. Especially how much they charge for tickets.

I don't, fundamentally, disagree, but there is a difference between a "regular" concert on a tour intinerary and a one-off performance where you're part of a bigger production.

It's also the steroids problem; no matter how good you are, it's harder than it needs to be to compete with those that are enhanced. 

[Stadler]

And backing tracks aren't the same as lip syncing. I think backing tracks are fine for recreating harmonies that otherwise can't be reproduced live, especially when the other band members won't or can't harmonize. But downright fake singing to a playback of the studio track is just dishonest and shitty.

I guess in some instances singers would record a one take and lip sync to that, but that's still unacceptable to me. It's even worse when the people with instruments are faking it.

Taylor sounded way too polished in her performance. You'd think someone of her caliber could push for live, but maybe she didn't care and was just being compliant.

She sang live at a New Year's Eve thing in NYC a couple years ago, and while I watched it live and it wasn't 'bad at all, she got CRUCIFIED in the press and in the followup.  Undeservedly, IMO, but still. 

[Stadler]

If that was all lip syching the other day, it wasn't to the studio versions. I have listened to Folklore and Evermore enough now to know that those vocals were a little different. Certain inflections and tones were not the same on many occasions, so it is possible she recorded a fresh take of each song in the medley and then sang along to that backing track and it is possible she did lip synch to the fresh take.  Doesn't take away from her at all, IMO.  I am sure I am fanboying a bit since I am still in the honeymoon phase of getting into her music, but she has taken so much unfair criticism over the years that I am fine with not giving a crap if she lip synched at the freaking Grammy's. 

I know that in some cases, the band will play the song "live", meaning they play and sing all the notes, the morning of or the day before in that venue, and that's the version that will be used as a supplement.  So it's them playing, live, but not in that moment, for various reasons (more for technical reasons outside the control of the band than actual performance).

Sidenote: I am bit stunned by a relative of mine who definitely identifies as a feminist, but is totally irrational about Taylor Swift (he rolls his eyes at any mention of her) and buys the "she has a team to write all of her songs for her" narrative.  I would think he'd be embracing a female musician of this caliber being so successful; it's rather surprising.  No clue where the "she doesn't write her own songs" narrative came from and why it started, but it's hilarious that some ignore the facts and still cling to that narrative.

I get not liking her music, I do.   And sometimes the 'squad' thing gets a little much for me, but I'm at the point now where it's basically just hate.   If that was, say, Alice Cooper or Dream Theater doing what she does, it'd be lauded as above and beyond, but it's her, so...    My kid ordered a signed copy of Folklore, and it was only a couple bucks more (go to Myles Kennedy's site and see how much the signed versions are).  In the package was the CD, and a sticker, a postcard and a handful of tissue paper stars.  Doesn't sound like much but it was a professional package, done right, not cheap.  She DOES have a significant hand in the writing and production of her material; almost all of her songs are written by her alone, or her and one or two collaborators.  So what's different between that and having Desmond Child, or Robert John "Mutt" Lange (I love writing out his whole name for some reason!) participating in your album? 

I think her biggest "problem" is that she's just so big that some things become untenable.  Bruce is like that; when I was outside the theater for his Broadway show, he was dropped off by his car and he stopped to wave, and you could tell he wanted to talk or interact, but he just couldn't.  The security formed a "box" around him and while I wasn't moving (I was in line for tickets and didn't want to lose my spot) you could sort of see the wave of people starting to migrate over to him, so he ducked inside.   It's just not possible for performers of a certain "size" to do things the way a club-circuit act can. And once that happens, it's too hard to avoid that patina of "fake".

[KevShmev]

I get not liking her music, I do.   And sometimes the 'squad' thing gets a little much for me, but I'm at the point now where it's basically just hate.   If that was, say, Alice Cooper or Dream Theater doing what she does, it'd be lauded as above and beyond, but it's her, so...    My kid ordered a signed copy of Folklore, and it was only a couple bucks more (go to Myles Kennedy's site and see how much the signed versions are).  In the package was the CD, and a sticker, a postcard and a handful of tissue paper stars.  Doesn't sound like much but it was a professional package, done right, not cheap.  She DOES have a significant hand in the writing and production of her material; almost all of her songs are written by her alone, or her and one or two collaborators.  So what's different between that and having Desmond Child, or Robert John "Mutt" Lange (I love writing out his whole name for some reason!) participating in your album? 

I think her biggest "problem" is that she's just so big that some things become untenable.  Bruce is like that; when I was outside the theater for his Broadway show, he was dropped off by his car and he stopped to wave, and you could tell he wanted to talk or interact, but he just couldn't.  The security formed a "box" around him and while I wasn't moving (I was in line for tickets and didn't want to lose my spot) you could sort of see the wave of people starting to migrate over to him, so he ducked inside.   It's just not possible for performers of a certain "size" to do things the way a club-circuit act can. And once that happens, it's too hard to avoid that patina of "fake".

A lot to get to with this one...

-I don't care much about her squad of celebrity/music biz friends.  Taylor strikes me as someone wanted to be a big star, achieved her goal of being a big star, and is loving being a big star, and she is living it up.  And having other friends who are also big stars is part of that for her.

-Regarding what she does for fans, absolutely!  I am hard pressed to think of any current musician who is as fan-friendly as she is.  She gives the fans constant praise, goes out of her way to meet and interact with them, online and in person, and seems very genuine about it.  It is easy to see why her legion of Swifties adore her.

-Re: songwriting, the videos of her geeking out talking about songs are great to watch.  You can tell her fingerprints are all over everything she does, even the songs written with collaborators.   I love the story about how late at night she had the melody for Lover in her head and then got up out of bed and pretty much wrote the whole song on the piano that night. That kind of spontaneous songwriting is always great to hear stories about.

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, who's in charge of her Wikipedia page and thinks that every simple description of a song deserves or necessitates to be confirmed by a citation? from Follkore's page:

"Mirrorball" is a folk-tinged, jangle-pop[85] and dream pop[46] song with swirling vocals, pedal steel,[86] snowy tambourine,[58] and twanging guitars,[83] creating a nervous dance-floor sensibility.[8]

And from Evermore's page:

Evermore opens with "Willow", a chill chamber folk[32] love song[20] propelled by picked guitars[18] coupled with glockenspiel, indie-folk orchestrations, programmed drums, and a breathless chorus.[29] "Champagne Problems" is a mournful[33] ballad[29] with spacious,[17] lo-fi, oompah piano chords that entwine with guitar arpeggios, and choir vocals.[18]

Geez it's barely readable  do we really need a citation to confirm that song is a ballad?

[KevShmev]

Anyone can edit a wikipedia page if I am not mistaken, so that is probably some egghead fan who wants to feel smart and felt the need to do all of that.  Because, ya know, we need the word "harmonica" with a hyperlink in case someone doesn't know what one is and wants to find out right away!

[Stadler]

I think one or two others here have said the same thing, but I regularly edit Wiki pages.  I don't put any editorial stuff in, but I will do grammar and syntax and what not.     Drives me F*******G CRAZY reading a Wiki article that says:

"Bob released his third solo album on May 28, 2008, and will follow up with a tour of England.  The live album from that tour is scheduled for release on August 3, 2008 and is expected to have Jim on bass."    It's 2021.  We KNOW if the tour happened, if the album came out and if Jim was on it.  For crap's sake, you're a celebrity; you don't have an intern, an assistant, a KID to update your wiki page?   The only thing worse are the pages that seem written by a paid PR rep.  "Bob's fantastic new album was released on May 28, 2008.  A fabulous, creative explosion of the prog genre, Bob received alcolades from within the industry and the fan-base at large.   Bob will follow up with a tour of England that is expected to set the new standard for touring small theaters, and will undoubtedly sell out."

I need to stay off the internet. 

I just edited...I think it was one of Seal's album pages just last night.  No, wait, it was The Sea Within.   

[HOF]

I just edited...I think it was one of Seal's album pages just last night.  No, wait, it was The Sea Within.

Would listen to a band called The Seal Within.

[Cool Chris]

Would listen to an artist who went by "Bob."

[KevShmev]

I just edited...I think it was one of Seal's album pages just last night.  No, wait, it was The Sea Within.

Would listen to a band called The Seal Within.

What about The Swift Within?

[KevShmev]

Anyone else familiar with the Reputation album? 

I stumbled across a YT clip of her writing the melodies for like 7 songs from the album, and what stood out to me was how much the pop sheen of the record sucked away most of the charm.  More specifically, the songs Gorgeous, Getaway Car and I Did Something Bad. All sounded lovely in their naked form in the studio when she was perfecting the lyrics and vocal melodies, and then the production was a big step backward for each. All feel like songs that could be good if she ever gave them the Folklore/Evermore treatment and performed them live all stripped down. 

Delicate from that record is one bad ass pop/dance tune, though, and the video is awesome.

[XeRocks81]

Gorgeous, Getaway Car and Delicate are my favorites from that record,  the pop sheen doesn't detract, at least to me.  But yeah a lot of the rest I can take or leave

edit: I think the clips of her working on the songs are all from the the Miss Americana documentary, on Netflix.  It's a real good watch if anyone is curious

[Zook]

1989 took me by surprise, as I didn't care for any of her previous stuff, so I was hopeful for a continuation of that style. Unfortunately we got an album full of Bad Bloods.

I would later discover that Red is also really good. I only heard the singles from it, and those are all still better than Bad Blood, but not a good representative of the album. Anything before Red I don't care about, and although Folklore and Evermore are vast improvements over Reputation and Lover, I'd be fine not hearing them for a couple years. My wife is a big Taylor Swift fan so I'm subjected to a lot of her stuff.

Reputation is a steaming pile of shit and Lover is a cold pile of shit.

Since she's always genre hopping, I wonder if she'd ever do a rock album. I'd be down as long as it wasn't forced like her angst on Reputation.

[MirrorMask]

Forgive me the off topic but since I never changed my signature, I might as well live up to it; since we're all liking so much Folklore and Evermoe (I'm starting to listen regularly to that album as well, it feels sightly inferior to Folklore but still enjoyable.... anyway I'm not that versed in the album yet so my opinion might improve with further listenings), may I suggest you another album in the similar style, from Elisa?

https://open.spotify.com/album/7HKE3jo5TRXdKPa5bCrxen

Elisa is an italian pop / rock singer, with a beautiful voice. Ivy is the name of the album that, while it can't be compared directly to Folklore, is in the general ballpark - female singer / songwriter with a beautiful voice, acoustic and mellow stuff, dreamy and delicate mood, minimalistic imaginery of the album.... the main difference with Folklore is that it's not all new music, but it's a mix - some new songs, some covers, and some acoustic versions of songs already released. And as I said it's not a "cousin" album to Folklore but.... the general mood is there, in case you might wanna look for more albums in that style.

[Max Kuehnau]

Forgive me the off topic but since I never changed my signature, I might as well live up to it; since we're all liking so much Folklore and Evermoe (I'm starting to listen regularly to that album as well, it feels sightly inferior to Folklore but still enjoyable.... anyway I'm not that versed in the album yet so my opinion might improve with further listenings), may I suggest you another album in the similar style, from Elisa?

https://open.spotify.com/album/7HKE3jo5TRXdKPa5bCrxen

Elisa is an italian pop / rock singer, with a beautiful voice. Ivy is the name of the album that, while it can't be compared directly to Folklore, is in the general ballpark - female singer / songwriter with a beautiful voice, acoustic and mellow stuff, dreamy and delicate mood, minimalistic imaginery of the album.... the main difference with Folklore is that it's not all new music, but it's a mix - some new songs, some covers, and some acoustic versions of songs already released. And as I said it's not a "cousin" album to Folklore but.... the general mood is there, in case you might wanna look for more albums in that style.

yeah Elisa is cool. Her first album is my personal favourite though. (featuring Steve Smith on drums too btw)

[KevShmev]

1989 took me by surprise, as I didn't care for any of her previous stuff, so I was hopeful for a continuation of that style. Unfortunately we got an album full of Bad Bloods.

I would later discover that Red is also really good. I only heard the singles from it, and those are all still better than Bad Blood, but not a good representative of the album. Anything before Red I don't care about, and although Folklore and Evermore are vast improvements over Reputation and Lover, I'd be fine not hearing them for a couple years. My wife is a big Taylor Swift fan so I'm subjected to a lot of her stuff.

Reputation is a steaming pile of shit and Lover is a cold pile of shit.

Since she's always genre hopping, I wonder if she'd ever do a rock album. I'd be down as long as it wasn't forced like her angst on Reputation.

Considering that awesome chemistry she had from the start with Aaron Dessner, I don't think a rock album is as out there as some might think.  I am sure she will want to work with him again, and since he comes from the rock world, a rock album from her wouldn't surprise me.  I saw her rock version of We Are Never Ever Ever Ever Ever Ever Ever Ever Getting Back Together from the 1989 tour on YT the other day, so it wouldn't be territory of which she'd be unfamiliar.

Lover is quite a few too tracks too long, but I think it has some strong material.  The title track is a killer tune, one of the best she has ever done, IMO, and I am very fond of Cruel Summer and The Archer as well.  Death by a Thousand Cuts is also quite nice.  Not a fan of Me!, but while both are a bit in your face with their lyrics, The Man and You Need to Calm Down are both pretty catchy, albeit not standouts.

[soupytwist]

I think the songs written across both albums with Aaron Dessner are generally much more interesting than the ones written with Jack Antonoff.

The Dessner twins are pretty damn amazing, love The National.

[KevShmev]

I think the songs written across both albums with Aaron Dessner are generally much more interesting than the ones written with Jack Antonoff.

The Dessner twins are pretty damn amazing, love The National.

While I agree that Dessner's contributions to these two albums were invaluable, I find it interesting that if I had to list my current top 5 from the two albums combined, he only has a co-writing credit on one* of them.

Exile
This Is Me Trying
Champaign Problems
Gold Rush
Coney Island*

[Dream Team]

Lip syncing is insulting to me.

If Bruce Dickinson can run around stage while singing, I think dancers in better shape can as well. I'd rather listen to someone slightly out of breath really performing than being lied to by phonies. Especially how much they charge for tickets.

Also wanted to add, STOP THE STUPID EFFING DANCING if you can’t sing properly. 

[KevShmev]

Also wanted to add, STOP THE STUPID EFFING DANCING if you can’t sing properly. 

Who do you think is dancing that cannot sing properly?

Also, you do realize that many music fans go to concerts for, ya know, fun, and don't really care if some singers using backing tracks during dance numbers, as long it enhances the show and makes it better, right?

[Dream Team]

Also wanted to add, STOP THE STUPID EFFING DANCING if you can’t sing properly. 
[/qu

Who do you think is dancing that cannot sing properly?

Also, you do realize that many music fans go to concerts for, ya know, fun, and don't really care if some singers using backing tracks during dance numbers, as long it enhances the show and makes it better, right?

Well, my point was, I'm supposed to be made to believe that fans of this type of music are discerning serious music listeners like prog or metal fans yet they'd rather watch synchronized dancing than listen to their idols actually sing. That's what's goofy to me.

[Stadler]

Also wanted to add, STOP THE STUPID EFFING DANCING if you can’t sing properly. 
[/qu

Who do you think is dancing that cannot sing properly?

Also, you do realize that many music fans go to concerts for, ya know, fun, and don't really care if some singers using backing tracks during dance numbers, as long it enhances the show and makes it better, right?

Well, my point was, I'm supposed to be made to believe that fans of this type of music are discerning serious music listeners like prog or metal fans yet they'd rather watch synchronized dancing than listen to their idols actually sing. That's what's goofy to me.

There is so much wrong with that post.

One, just because you like metal or prog doesn't make you a "discerning serious music listener".
Two, just because you might be a "discerning serious music listener" doesn't mean you can't like a more entertainment-based act.
Three, what do you mean by "this type of music"?

I would never categorize myself as a "discerning serious music listener" - that just reeks of pretentious snobbery - but if there was such a category, it's reasonable I might fit. I've seen King Crimson five times, and can discern the differences between the 75 some-odd performances included in the Larks, Starless and Red boxsets.   Yet, one of the best concert experiences of my life was Harry Styles in Madison Square Garden.  I've also seen the Jonas Brothers twice, and Miley Cyrus once. 

[KevShmev]

There is so much wrong with that post.

One, just because you like metal or prog doesn't make you a "discerning serious music listener".
Two, just because you might be a "discerning serious music listener" doesn't mean you can't like a more entertainment-based act.
Three, what do you mean by "this type of music"?

I would never categorize myself as a "discerning serious music listener" - that just reeks of pretentious snobbery - but if there was such a category, it's reasonable I might fit. I've seen King Crimson five times, and can discern the differences between the 75 some-odd performances included in the Larks, Starless and Red boxsets.   Yet, one of the best concert experiences of my life was Harry Styles in Madison Square Garden.  I've also seen the Jonas Brothers twice, and Miley Cyrus once.

I have to admit, I laughed out load at the "serious music listener" comment.  I mean, who gets to make that determination?

I suspect that a lot of people might think about some metal fans, "How are you a discerning music listener if you'd rather listen to a guy growl like Cookie Monster than actually sing?"

So yeah, the door swings both ways, and I get thinking that some pop stars who probably need a lot of help in the studio to sound good and then need a backing track live while they dance are probably enjoyed by casual music fans who just want to be entertained and don't give a tinker's damn about the "purity" of a performance, but that does not apply to Ms. Swift.  All one has to do is go to YT and check out any of her live performances where it's just her and the piano or her and the acoustic guitar to know that she can sing. 

[NoseofNicko]

Just listened to Evermore. Very good. I think I might end up liking it more than Folklore after a few listens.

[KevShmev]

Just listened to Evermore. Very good. I think I might end up liking it more than Folklore after a few listens.

It really is pretty damn close.  Yea, Folklore has great stuff like This Is Me Trying, August, Mad Woman, Cardigan, Exile, Mirrorball and Epiphany, but oh wait, Evermore has Champaign Problems, Gold Rush, Coney Island, Marjorie, Happiness, Dorothea and Long Story Short!  Great songs everywhere!!

Oh, and the studio version of My Tears Ricochet feels like a letdown now compared to the live version from the Long Pond Sessions (link below).  Her singing in that live version is just incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJJZ1cqFFU0