Coronavirus

[lordxizor]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have.

As for the overcounting, I'm not going to venture a guess. But the powers that be are pretty open about the fact that they're counting deaths of people with Covid-19 and not deaths because of Covid-19 (see the post about 5 murder victims being counted as Covid-19 deaths a page or two back, and the long string of posts we had here a couple weeks ago). Plus the doctors coming out and saying they're being encouraged to mark deaths as Covid related even if there's no proof they are. There's definitely enough to make people suspicious. If you're a person that tends to buy into that kind of stuff, it's really easy to discount the danger.

Plus add in that (at least in my state) 80% of the deaths are happening in nursing homes or elderly care facilities, and again, it just adds fuel to the "it's not that big of a deal for me" attitude that many have.

[King Postwhore]

I don't think you are factoring that when the flu season comes we don't isolate, social distance and wear masks.  The reason why the Covid #'s are  lower is because we did do these things.  If not, I can imagine the #'.

[MirrorMask]

In Italy a 18 years old healthy kid had both his lungs "burned" by the virus, making him unable to breathe in few days. He luckily got a transplant and received a first-of-its-kind operation for Europe.

This ties along in the people not really getting the dangers of the virus. It doesn't happen to them, it doesn't happen to people they know, they don't really get how dangerous it is.

Just like we're all gonna die but nobody thinks seriously and all the time about the absolute certain fact that their body will grow old and frail and that one day they will die, nobody really stops to think "Could I be recovered for 15 days in an Intensive Care unit and have issues with how my lungs will work for the rest of my life"? no, they don't. *I* am fully accepting the risks and dangers posed by the virus, I'm not anxious at all to go back to visit bars and take trips, and I haven't spent a single moment imaging myself getting sick, the ambulance coming, seeing doctors fully dressed in anti-contagion suits in my own home, and spending two weeks laying face down in an hospital wondering if any breath will be my last. I bet you many haven't either.

[Northern Lion]

The biggest difference I see is that a seat belt protects you.  Statistics show unequivocably that your chances of surviving an accident are higher if you're wearing a seat belt.

The primary purpose of a face mask is to protect others.  It isn't actually very effective at filtering what you breathe in, but even the most basic mask, even just a hanky over your mouth, helps prevent you from spraying germs around when you talk.

People are more likely to do something if it helps them, than to do something which primarily helps others, especially if there's personal inconvenience involved.

You're absolutely right Orbert.  I'd like to put a crazy libertarian twist on this though.

I don't believe governments should create legislation to prevent people from being stupid.  Like seat belts.  It is up to the individual to protect their own life and not the responsibility of the government.  The government should protect the homeland from foreign invaders and to prosecute murderers and such.  So wearing a seat belt should not be a law.  However, if an individual cares about his own life, then they will realize that seat belts are put in vehicles for a reason and wear one.

Masks are a little more complicated.  I would hope that our society doesn't end up viewing the act of breathing as an assalt with a deadly weapon.  Infectous diseases exist and pandemics have existed in the past and we can reasonably assume they will again in the future.  Because of this, I don't think it is right that government should mandate you wear a certain article of clothing, however, I don't mind if businesses do.  And I also don't mind if people mandate the wearing of masks in their own homes when visitors come.

And I'm going to push back a little on the masks are there to protect others idea.  Although I do think there is some truth to that, I think it is more along the lines of the seat belt arguement.  I think the mask does a better job protecting the wearer than it does protecting others from the wearer.

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

We see this now that lockdowns are lifting.  If the lockdowns had never happened in the first place, I don't think we would now see crowded beaches, restaurants and protests.  But instead we would see people wearing masks more and social distancing while going about their regular lives.  People will always desire to fight back the heavy hand of government, but personal choice is carried with pride and honor.

And just as an aside, I always wear a seat belt, and I always wear a mask and social distance when I visit any establishment or other public enclosed space.

[Chino]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

[lordxizor]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

[Chino]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I can't speak for all facilities, but the place that's working on my leg handles a ridiculous number of elderly patients. They changed their policies to great reduce the traffic in their building. The delay is due to having to restructure the schedule with the new safety measures in place. Patients with higher priorities are placed higher up the list.

[Northern Lion]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

The biggest difference I see is that a seat belt protects you.  Statistics show unequivocably that your chances of surviving an accident are higher if you're wearing a seat belt.

The primary purpose of a face mask is to protect others.  It isn't actually very effective at filtering what you breathe in, but even the most basic mask, even just a hanky over your mouth, helps prevent you from spraying germs around when you talk.

People are more likely to do something if it helps them, than to do something which primarily helps others, especially if there's personal inconvenience involved.

You're absolutely right Orbert.  I'd like to put a crazy libertarian twist on this though.

I don't believe governments should create legislation to prevent people from being stupid.  Like seat belts.  It is up to the individual to protect their own life and not the responsibility of the government.  The government should protect the homeland from foreign invaders and to prosecute murderers and such.  So wearing a seat belt should not be a law.  However, if an individual cares about his own life, then they will realize that seat belts are put in vehicles for a reason and wear one.

Masks are a little more complicated.  I would hope that our society doesn't end up viewing the act of breathing as an assalt with a deadly weapon.  Infectous diseases exist and pandemics have existed in the past and we can reasonably assume they will again in the future.  Because of this, I don't think it is right that government should mandate you wear a certain article of clothing, however, I don't mind if businesses do.  And I also don't mind if people mandate the wearing of masks in their own homes when visitors come.

And I'm going to push back a little on the masks are there to protect others idea.  Although I do think there is some truth to that, I think it is more along the lines of the seat belt arguement.  I think the mask does a better job protecting the wearer than it does protecting others from the wearer.

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

We see this now that lockdowns are lifting.  If the lockdowns had never happened in the first place, I don't think we would now see crowded beaches, restaurants and protests.  But instead we would see people wearing masks more and social distancing while going about their regular lives.  People will always desire to fight back the heavy hand of government, but personal choice is carried with pride and honor.

And just as an aside, I always wear a seat belt, and I always wear a mask and social distance when I visit any establishment or other public enclosed space.

This is demonstrably untrue, though.  https://health.clevelandclinic.org/heres-how-wearing-a-cloth-mask-helps-fight-the-spread-of-coronavirus/

[Indiscipline]

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

[The Walrus]

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

+1, well said.

[Stadler]

I wish if you could take an honest poll from non-mask wearers their reasoning, and determine the breakdown be between "TRUMP YEAH! DON'T TAKE MY FREEDOMS!" and "Eh, just don't want to."

I don't wear a mask when I'm not required to. For me it mostly boils down to I don't want to, but there are some other less rational reasons that it's not worth getting into. It has -1000% to do with Trump for me.

Ignoring the obvious question (why don't you want to), I'll ask a different one, and I'm 100% serious - do you wear a seatbelt when driving?  If so, what fundamental difference is there between seatbelts and masks that cause you be ok with the use one, but not the other?

Those aren't really even close to the same thing, but I'll play along. I don't find seat belts uncomfortable and they don't cover my face in an annoying way. And there aren't easy alternatives to seat belts that offer basically the same protections. In the case of masks: I don't go out much, I stay away from crowded areas, and I don't get close to people when I am out. Same benefits without the annoying side effects.

I appreciate the response (and those from others), and I guess all I can say is 'to each their own'.  I do think they are very close from a perspective of being a tool/instrument to reduce risk of injury or health impact in certain situations.  Is it a perfect comparison, no.  But while neither a mask or seatbelt protect 100%, they can significantly reduce risk against what they are designed to protect against.  By no means am I advocating that the instant anyone steps outside their house, they need to wear a mask.  When in public situations where 6 ft distancing is not feasible, those are the situations that warrant it.  Similar to a seatbelt, when you're in a car, you wear a seatbelt.  Do you need one on a bike, a boat, a golf cart ... not necessary.

That's just my perspective.

I guess the mild discomfort and any 'annoyance' I experience from wearing one (the ones I have get very uncomfortable around my ears after any prolonged usage), is worth it if I'm reducing the possibility of someone having to experience the discomfort of a tube stuck down their throat.  Yes, I'm being rather hyperbolic, but I just see it as a means of doing my part.

As I said, to each their own.

I think there's a third. More along the lines of "this is all way overblown and unnecessary. I'm not buying into the fear and I'm not going to wear a mask."

100,000 dead is overblown?  I mean, if taking steps to improve public heath is "buying into fear"... well, I have no response to that.  Did you refuse to 'buy into the fear' of flying after 9/11 when a mere 5000-ish were killed from terrorists in planes?  Where was the outrage at airport security measures?  I'm sorry, I just don't get these perspectives.

But, to each their own.

I'm not really arguing with you, just using your post to point a few things out:
- some people (me, included, to an extent) WERE opposed to the "buy in to fear" after 9/11.  I still, to this day, believe that a good number of the safety protocols implemented post-9/11 were meant more to assuage passenger fears - so they fly - than to actually stop terrorists.  I made the observation/comment/joke then and I'll make it now: once the TSA instituted a 3.1 oz limit on fluids Osama bin Laden put 15 virgins into a cave with 3.0 oz. of fluid and said "Figure it out", like Ken Mattingly/Gary Sinise in Apollo 13 (and yes, I know there was physics and science behind that number and so it wasn't that easy; it was a point, though, that the offense has the advantage in these situations).

- I think there ought to be more respect as to the "100,000 dead" number.  I get it, some people are really and truly of the "even one is far too many!" camp, and I respect that, but it's not me.   People die, unfortunately, and not every single death is directly attributable to some monster that needs to be held accountable.   Heart disease, Cancer, Accidents (unintentional injuries), Chronic lower respiratory diseases, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases), and Alzheimer’s disease all cause more deaths PER YEAR than this.   I don't see a ton of people up in arms about the $4 BILLION diet soda industry; I don't see the "Trump crowd" (I don't agree but go with the flow) screaming about their rights, and I don't see the libtards (making a point) pointing their finger at Atlanta (headquarters for Coke).   Chronic repiratory disease; COPD is caused by irritants in the lungs.  For various reasons, marijuana smoking can increase the levels of irritants in the lungs by up to four times.  There's an entire thread here CELEBRATING the legalization of weed (rightfully, so, in my opinion, but still).  Heart disease?   Depending on your stat source, something like 80 million Americans are obese, and another almost 100 million are overweight.    This is as many as 400,000 deaths a year (and GROWING), as well as an over $100 BILLION cost to our society/economy (another reason why comparing to Sweden ain't such a great move, Bern.)

Humans are notoriously bad at comparing and evaluating risk, especially when the competing risks are acute vs. chronic.   I'm doing my part because I don't want to get sick, and I feel I have an obligation to be a good citizen.   The rest is sort of subjective, and ought to be considered in that light. 

Please don't respond with "it's 8 weeks", "it's OTHER people", etc.; I understand that, and those all pose their own specific concerns.  I'm responding to the notion of "100,000" as this huge, unfathomable number, or something we should be in awe over due to it's magnitude.

[Stadler]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I've got it at like seven or so, annually (see my above post).   Sure, that number is going to grow, but... are you looking at a forecast?

[Lethean]

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

+1, well said.

+2

[Stadler]

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

I wish we talked about this more often.  It's such a HUGE factor in the divisiveness in our country.  I know for me, the SECOND someone says I'm "stupid", my instant response is "fuck you running" and everything else is white noise, unless and until I get my ego in check and realize there might be information there I need.   So the memes, the quippy tweets, the constant singling out and isolating, to me it's a critical part of all this, and why I'm so adamant about not falling into tropes like "the Trump crowd" (even if there are elements of truth in it).   

I find it odd that some (not talking about anyone here; mainly talking about social media) are so ready to yell at the people in the videos for "not doing their part" when in so doing they themselves are fertilizing the garden in which that behavior grows to begin with.  Maybe THEY should start doing their part as well, no?   

[lonestar]

Back to work today, really looking forward to wearing a mask in a hot kitchen. 

[ErHaO]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

How do you propose that works?

In our country we have transported patients to other hospitals and even to Germany to ensure the burden was spread out. Nonetheless, it was a massive crisis for our entire healthcare system. The hospital I work at most certainly shifted it's personnel to other activities to handle the crisis, whenever possible, but it was a crisis nonetheless. It is not necessarily easy to simply pull all the doctors/nurses from location X and put them on Y. There are plenty of other bottlenecks (space, materials, infrastructure).

I am not familiar with US-healthcare, but as for laid off personell, hospitals have a lot of (very) different fields of expertise and some of those have likely been put to a halt as well. If anything, it is a lack of rules and regulations that allows institutions to lay off people so soon.

[Stadler]

Back to work today, really looking forward to wearing a mask in a hot kitchen. 

Glad you're working though (and that's not a comment on your mask point; it's sincere, since I recall you being on the fence with work.)

[Harmony]

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

Respectfully though - you are forgetting an important factor (I think).  There was a massive shortage of PPE when non-emergent care was halted.  It was so bad that in many areas, PPE were requested from vets, construction, cosmetics and beauticians.  Heck in our area, people were asked to check their garages and attics for extra PPE they could donate.  There was no way to prepare for the influx of covid patients and continue non-urgent procedures while keeping staff safe from contracting the disease.  Hospitals were not prepared.  They could not have safely managed it even if they had full say how it went down.

That said, I am concerned about people who had to then, and continue to now, put off seeking care out of fear of contracting covid in hospitals.  People who didn't get their mammograms and colonoscopies and skin cancer screenings.  And didn't get that stent placed or get that sleep study done.  Some of these people got much more gravely ill putting these things off.

[Northern Lion]

The biggest difference I see is that a seat belt protects you.  Statistics show unequivocably that your chances of surviving an accident are higher if you're wearing a seat belt.

The primary purpose of a face mask is to protect others.  It isn't actually very effective at filtering what you breathe in, but even the most basic mask, even just a hanky over your mouth, helps prevent you from spraying germs around when you talk.

People are more likely to do something if it helps them, than to do something which primarily helps others, especially if there's personal inconvenience involved.

You're absolutely right Orbert.  I'd like to put a crazy libertarian twist on this though.

I don't believe governments should create legislation to prevent people from being stupid.  Like seat belts.  It is up to the individual to protect their own life and not the responsibility of the government.  The government should protect the homeland from foreign invaders and to prosecute murderers and such.  So wearing a seat belt should not be a law.  However, if an individual cares about his own life, then they will realize that seat belts are put in vehicles for a reason and wear one.

Masks are a little more complicated.  I would hope that our society doesn't end up viewing the act of breathing as an assalt with a deadly weapon.  Infectous diseases exist and pandemics have existed in the past and we can reasonably assume they will again in the future.  Because of this, I don't think it is right that government should mandate you wear a certain article of clothing, however, I don't mind if businesses do.  And I also don't mind if people mandate the wearing of masks in their own homes when visitors come.

And I'm going to push back a little on the masks are there to protect others idea.  Although I do think there is some truth to that, I think it is more along the lines of the seat belt arguement.  I think the mask does a better job protecting the wearer than it does protecting others from the wearer.

Also, from a human nature stand point, people are far more likely to obey a sensible well reasoned suggestion or practice as long as it isn't brow beat into them, than a sensible well reasoned law backed by enforcement.  When people are at liberty to choose for themselves they generally tend to choose the right thing and do it with pride and honor.  But, if someone thinks they can get away with not obeying a law, they will generally do it first chance they get.

We see this now that lockdowns are lifting.  If the lockdowns had never happened in the first place, I don't think we would now see crowded beaches, restaurants and protests.  But instead we would see people wearing masks more and social distancing while going about their regular lives.  People will always desire to fight back the heavy hand of government, but personal choice is carried with pride and honor.

And just as an aside, I always wear a seat belt, and I always wear a mask and social distance when I visit any establishment or other public enclosed space.

This is demonstrably untrue, though.  https://health.clevelandclinic.org/heres-how-wearing-a-cloth-mask-helps-fight-the-spread-of-coronavirus/

Well, the CDC has gone back and forth on the mask issue, including recently.  Also, the doctor in the article, although certainly well informed and as up to date on current findings as he can be, admits that ,with the coronavirus, he is making an assumption.  I don't fault him for it, and I'm not saying he's wrong and I'm right.  My point is, that we really don't know for sure.  But either way, I still stand by the paragraph I wrote prior to the one you pointed out.

I love science, and I love watching it's progress and I love all the great stuff humanity has discovered through it.  But, I do take scientific studies with a grain of salt for this reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q

No matter how good the study is, there will always be the element of human error, as with everything else in life.  Again, I'm not saying the doctor in the article is wrong, but I do believe the info in this video should be considered as well when talking on the subject.

[Northern Lion]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating the flu comparison, but having / taking a flu vaccine would be the exact opposite of "absolutely nothing".

OK, I wasn't thinking about the flu vaccine, but you know what I mean by absolutely nothing. No masks, no social distancing, no closing businesses, etc. A bad flu year can kill 60,000 in the US alone, with 500 million to 1 billion cases worldwide, even with the vaccine and no one bats an eye. Yes, I'm aware they're not the same disease, but it's the closest comparison we have. I'm sure there are others with much more important procedures needed that are in a similar boat as me.

The key word there is "year". If the flu killed 100,000K people in just 8 weeks every yeah, we'd be treating it MUCH differently. As others have mentioned in prior posts, the death count isn't the only metric we need to be looking at. Our (Connecticut's) hospital infrastructure was brought to its knees by this thing, and that was with all the precautions and shutdowns. The flu doesn't do that, regardless of how many people it kills per year. I have to have surgery on my leg and I'm three months behind on my appointments now because of all this.

Are you behind because every doctor in your local hospital was busy fighting Covid or because your governor declared that hospitals can't do any non-critical care right now? There's a big difference. People are way behind on care here too while hospitals in much of the state sit nearly empty. It's easy to argue that our heathcare system was brought to it's knees because the governors shut it down rather than Covid being such a huge issue that doctors couldn't provide care for anything else. Orthopedic surgeons likely weren't fighting Covid. With basic precautions, they could have continued on, but they weren't allowed to in many cases.

I totally get hospitals doing everthing in their power to prevent the spread, but yeah, these lockdowns have created large problems in healthcare.  If hostpitals were allowed to govern their own institutions in all of thise, I believe that a safe and effective solution could have been reached while still providing most if not all other medical services.

While some doctors and nurses have certainly been overworked in certain areas of the country, there are also plenty of places where doctors and nurses have been laid off because they have nothing to do.  It's a tragic waste in my view.

How do you propose that works?

In our country we have transported patients to other hospitals and even to Germany to ensure the burden was spread out. Nonetheless, it was a massive crisis for our entire healthcare system. The hospital I work at most certainly shifted it's personnel to other activities to handle the crisis, whenever possible, but it was a crisis nonetheless. It is not necessarily easy to simply pull all the doctors/nurses from location X and put them on Y. There are plenty of other bottlenecks (space, materials, infrastructure).

I am not familiar with US-healthcare, but as for laid off personell, hospitals have a lot of (very) different fields of expertise and some of those have likely been put to a halt as well. If anything, it is a lack of rules and regulations that allows institutions to lay off people so soon.

That is a valid point.  I think the largest difference is the size of the US.  Because of that, Covid-19 hit some areas of our country far harder than others, however healthcare facilities were basically shutdown all accross our nation regardless of how severe Covid-19 was.  Thus, many healthcare professionals were basically put out of a job where Covid-19 wasn't severe.

And I'm not saying this without merit.  I have a brother who is a doctor and a sister-in-law who is a nurse and they have been informing the rest of the family about the circumstances they see in their areas of work.  Plus it has also been in the news over here in my country.

[The Walrus]

Back to work today, really looking forward to wearing a mask in a hot kitchen. 

Glad you're back to working, bud, although that has to be hell. I put off wearing face masks here at the shop for years because I couldn't be bothered to put them on (and I was young and stupid) but over the past few months I've been wearing them more and more as I go out into the shop breathing a lot of body dust. And now that the temperature outside is beginning to crank up, it makes it that much more unbearable and sweaty. Can only imagine what it's like with all the steam and heat in there.

[gmillerdrake]

Received a sigh of relief today when I logged in to the State unemployment website and saw they've sent out my first unemployment check. Such a weird feeling. I've been working since I got my work permit at 15 1/2 years old......I know there are a lot of ways this pandemic has affected people....but for me, it's humbled me big time. Setting the ego aside and accepting government assistance is something i never thought I'd have to do. But hey.....I've paid in to it for 29 years, might as well utilize it.

[bosk1]

I have a similar mental block about using benefits like that.  But this is truly what it is meant for.

[Chino]

Received a sigh of relief today when I logged in to the State unemployment website and saw they've sent out my first unemployment check. Such a weird feeling. I've been working since I got my work permit at 15 1/2 years old......I know there are a lot of ways this pandemic has affected people....but for me, it's humbled me big time. Setting the ego aside and accepting government assistance is something i never thought I'd have to do. But hey.....I've paid in to it for 29 years, might as well utilize it.

The whole point of those programs to to help citizens in time of need. You've helped other people out for decades. No shame in accepting that same help, especially for something like this. I just think of it as insurance in a way. The taxes paid are like an insurance premium, and now because of one thing or another, you have to make a claim. No biggie.

[Cool Chris]

I hope people who had their jobs shut down by state orders don't consider unemployment as mere government assistance. Their livelihoods were stripped away, rightly or wrongly, and often arbitrarily, through no fualt of their own.

[Northern Lion]

Received a sigh of relief today when I logged in to the State unemployment website and saw they've sent out my first unemployment check. Such a weird feeling. I've been working since I got my work permit at 15 1/2 years old......I know there are a lot of ways this pandemic has affected people....but for me, it's humbled me big time. Setting the ego aside and accepting government assistance is something i never thought I'd have to do. But hey.....I've paid in to it for 29 years, might as well utilize it.

I'm so happy for you man!  That's got to take a lot of stress out of your life right now. (or at least it will once the checks begin being deposited in your account).  Having been unemployed myself as an adult, I know it's not fun and can be really scary.

I know I say this a lot, but I've been praying for you as well as everyone else I know of here on the forum who has been layed off, furloughed, or otherwise had hours and pay reduced during this very diffucult time.

All of you have been so very awesome and have accepted me dispite my querks.  I wish everyone well who has been suffering in any way right now.  You're a good bunch of folks!

[jingle.boy]

Fair, but seriously... *how* overblown do you really think the over-counting is?  Even if it is 50% overcounted (which would be outrageous to think/believe), COVID is would be the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.  The reality is, there's probably as much under-reporting that has taken place as over-reporting - at least globally. 

I've got it at like seven or so, annually (see my above post).   Sure, that number is going to grow, but... are you looking at a forecast?

I went by this CDC website.  Current number 3 is about 170k/year for "accidents".  At the published total (rounding to 100k) in 3 months (first US death was late Feb iirc?), that would put the annual total comfortably at #3.

[jingle.boy]

My view on this is: doctors - i.e people who know much more about virus and pandemics than me - say wearing a mask helps = I'm wearing a mask.

Discomfort? I can live with that. It might even be good remembering I'm not entitled to comfort just because I have the techno-social means to complain

My government is mandating mask use? Good. That's what I'm paying those fockers for. It's nice to see public interest enforced once in a while.

+1, well said.

+2

+3

[gmillerdrake]

The whole point of those programs to to help citizens in time of need. You've helped other people out for decades. No shame in accepting that same help, especially for something like this. I just think of it as insurance in a way. The taxes paid are like an insurance premium, and now because of one thing or another, you have to make a claim. No biggie.

Yep. Totally understand. Like Bosk mentioned......it's a 'mental' thing. I've always taken pride in not ever having to borrow money from any family members or use any type of assistance at all. I've always had a job and made the money I needed to make to have what I have. Not working and accepting money is just a weird feeling. I 'get' I'm just utilizing the programs in place.....it's just weird.

I'm so happy for you man!  That's got to take a lot of stress out of your life right now. (or at least it will once the checks begin being deposited in your account).  Having been unemployed myself as an adult, I know it's not fun and can be really scary.

I know I say this a lot, but I've been praying for you as well as everyone else I know of here on the forum who has been layed off, furloughed, or otherwise had hours and pay reduced during this very diffucult time.

All of you have been so very awesome and have accepted me dispite my querks.  I wish everyone well who has been suffering in any way right now.  You're a good bunch of folks!

   Thank you!

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think you are factoring that when the flu season comes we don't isolate, social distance and wear masks.  The reason why the Covid #'s are  lower is because we did do these things.  If not, I can imagine the #'.

This is a good point that I didn't want to go unacknowledged.

[The Walrus]

I just talked to a lady who's been in self-quarantine since February 17th in our little town. Holy crap. She's only gone outside once a week since then. 

[hefdaddy42]

My wife's cousin lives in tiny Mount Airy, NC (our old stomping grounds).

A couple of weeks ago, her husband was diagnosed with COVID 19.  He basically felt like total crap for a little while, but quarantined at home and eventually got through it.

Meanshile, their daughter also contracted it.  Similarly, she rode it out.

However, the 91 year old grandmother, who also lived in the household, also got it.  She was eventually hospitalized and placed on a ventilator.  The decision was made to take her off the vent on Monday this week, and she passed away (a DNR was in place).  Apart from COVID, she had no other health issues before, other than being 91.

[jingle.boy]

To continue to make things more 'real'... a former colleague and employee of mine lost her brother early in the outbreak.  50 years old, 4 kids under the age of 18.  No underlying health issues.  10 days from his first symptoms to passing away. 
The thought was that he contracted it as a result of a business trip to California. 

That shit is just way too close to "it could've been me".

So yeah, I'm doing everything within my control to slow/stop the spread.  Masks and gloves when I'm out in public situations is not a high price to pay.

[Cool Chris]

I just talked to a lady who's been in self-quarantine since February 17th in our little town. Holy crap. She's only gone outside once a week since then. 

Outside literally as in 'never left the confines of the house, didn't see sunlight, not even to check the mailbox" or "didn't leave the property, but still went outside to water the plants, etc..."