NFL thread 2014 v. Frankford Yellow Jackets Lay the Pipe on the Dayton Triangles

[Destiny Of Chaos]

https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Steve-Bisciottis-Letter-To-Ravens-Fans/ca17b5f3-674f-4fbe-ac4c-d47927eb04ba


Happy that Mr. Bisciotti has addressed this situation. I cannot blame the Ravens for what they did, firstly giving Mr. Rice the benefit of the doubt for as long as they could, then by releasing him promptly after seeing the true severity of the crime. Mr. Rice was one of my all time favorite Ravens, but this goes far beyond football.

Huh.  I admit that I went into that article skeptical about finding anything that would remotely ring sincere or true, and expecting to find backpedaling.  Whether Bisciotti is sincere or is merely spinning this to cover his backside, I do not know.  But that letter is a very satisfying read that comes across as very genuine and sincere, and I cannot think of a single additional thing he should have said as an owner.

That's the impression that I get. By my estimation, he has been a fantastic owner. And while the Ravens do have a share of the blame in this situation, it seems that they didn't do anything wrong intentionally.

[bosk1]

There is one thing I keep coming back to in this situation.  And unfortunately, before I get to it, it is necessary for me to offer a disclaimer:  I do not in any way, shape, or form condone what Rice did, or violence against women in any context.

That being said, why is it the Ravens' responsibility to have taken action in the first place? 

Steve Young made the argument with respect to the Ray McDonald situation that "any employer" would have sent him home (with pay if necessary) while it was being sorted out, and that as an employer, you do NOT keep the person in the workplace while "due process" is carried out.  He is mistaken.  I know what employers do when employees are accused of crimes because that relates directly to what I do for a living.  Unless the alleged crime makes the employee a threat in the workplace, the vast majority of employers in this country would NOT send an employee home for an arrest for off-duty conduct.  They just wouldn't.  It isn't done.  Yet a lot of people seem to be beating that drum, and I am not sure where that comes from.

I see making a distinction for professional athletes in this country because they are, in effect, celebrities that are the public face of the team/league.  What they do off duty reflects on the team.  So I can see the team wanting to take ownership and be proactive and take a stance.  But although it is beneficial for a team to do so, and although I admit to picking up my torch and pitchfork along with the mob when news of the video first broke, after further reflection, I don't really think the team (or the league, for that matter) really has a duty here.  I dunno.  Maybe I am missing something.  And if I am, somebody please bring me back down to earth.  But I just don't see where the rule comes from that the team necessarily needed to take its own action and conduct an independent investigation.  I am glad they wish they did.  But I am not seeing where they needed to.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

There is one thing I keep coming back to in this situation.  And unfortunately, before I get to it, it is necessary for me to offer a disclaimer:  I do not in any way, shape, or form condone what Rice did, or violence against women in any context.

That being said, why is it the Ravens' responsibility to have taken action in the first place? 

Steve Young made the argument with respect to the Ray McDonald situation that "any employer" would have sent him home (with pay if necessary) while it was being sorted out, and that as an employer, you do NOT keep the person in the workplace while "due process" is carried out.  He is mistaken.  I know what employers do when employees are accused of crimes because that relates directly to what I do for a living.  Unless the alleged crime makes the employee a threat in the workplace, the vast majority of employers in this country would NOT send an employee home for an arrest for off-duty conduct.  They just wouldn't.  It isn't done.  Yet a lot of people seem to be beating that drum, and I am not sure where that comes from.

I see making a distinction for professional athletes in this country because they are, in effect, celebrities that are the public face of the team/league.  What they do off duty reflects on the team.  So I can see the team wanting to take ownership and be proactive and take a stance.  But although it is beneficial for a team to do so, and although I admit to picking up my torch and pitchfork along with the mob when news of the video first broke, after further reflection, I don't really think the team (or the league, for that matter) really has a duty here.  I dunno.  Maybe I am missing something.  And if I am, somebody please bring me back down to earth.  But I just don't see where the rule comes from that the team necessarily needed to take its own action and conduct an independent investigation.  I am glad they wish they did.  But I am not seeing where they needed to.

Well put, and agreed that unless there are special circumstances, an employer wouldn't normally send an employee home during "due process".

[ReaPsTA]

There is one thing I keep coming back to in this situation.  And unfortunately, before I get to it, it is necessary for me to offer a disclaimer:  I do not in any way, shape, or form condone what Rice did, or violence against women in any context.

That being said, why is it the Ravens' responsibility to have taken action in the first place?

It's two things:

1.  Society is starting to realize that, in a world where perception is everything, that it can enforce morality by creating a PR crisis for entities it doesn't like.  In another recent example, when the various nude celebrity photos leaked, enough activists spoke out against their release that it became suicide for any media outlet to link to them.  Society is also deciding that this behavior is moral.  As Ray Rice's indefinite suspension proves, society has the power to act on this decision.

2.  Sports exist for the psychological benefit of fans.  If watching sports makes you feel worse than not watching sports, you won't watch sports.  Not taking action against Rice would have risked crossing that line.

These are both more practical arguments, I guess.  Personally, I loathe how powerful people look down on normal people and believe they can write their own moral rules.  To me, the NFL and Ray Rice should have to live up to the same standard of morality that most people do, even if it takes "mob rule" to make it happen.  But that's a hard viewpoint to really objectively prove.

[cramx3]

For better or worse, its hard to compare professional athletes work to a non athlete's work.  The rest of us get the privacy of our lives and the athletes do not get that.  It ends up leading to things like Ray Rice getting fired whereas maybe one of us would not have.  Kind of the nature of the beast, but while it may not seem right to get fired when the courts already did their action, these guys make millions of dollars and I think that is fair compensation.

[Chino]

The Ravens could probably see him as too much of a liability. If he did that to his wife, who's to say he wouldn't do physical harm to another member of the team? What happens if next time he shatters his wife's skull and leaves her brain dead or worse? What if he lands himself in jail and then your team is down a player? There are a million reasons why the Ravens should be concerned and not want this guy on the team.

[hefdaddy42]

Personally, I loathe how powerful people look down on normal people and believe they can write their own moral rules.  To me, the NFL and Ray Rice should have to live up to the same standard of morality that most people do, even if it takes "mob rule" to make it happen. 

Yes, but I think bosky's point is that under the rules normal people live by, he wouldn't lose his job.

[cramx3]

Professional football players dont live under the same rules as the everyday person regardless of committing a crime.

[ReaPsTA]

Personally, I loathe how powerful people look down on normal people and believe they can write their own moral rules.  To me, the NFL and Ray Rice should have to live up to the same standard of morality that most people do, even if it takes "mob rule" to make it happen. 

Yes, but I think bosky's point is that under the rules normal people live by, he wouldn't lose his job.

Under the rules normal people live by, he'd be facing jail time.

[El Barto]

Personally, I loathe how powerful people look down on normal people and believe they can write their own moral rules.  To me, the NFL and Ray Rice should have to live up to the same standard of morality that most people do, even if it takes "mob rule" to make it happen. 

Yes, but I think bosky's point is that under the rules normal people live by, he wouldn't lose his job.

Under the rules normal people live by, he'd be facing jail time.

Uh, he was. He copped a plea down to a misdemeanor and was shown some leniency. And [possibly] unlike the league, Johnny had the video to go by. 

[ReaPsTA]

Uh, he was. He copped a plea down to a misdemeanor and was shown some leniency. And [possibly] unlike the league, Johnny had the video to go by.

I'm not sure he gets that opportunity if he isn't a famous and wealthy professional athlete.

[Dublagent66]

Yeah Reap, we live in a world of Greed, Politics and Power.  Morality doesn't factor into that equation, AT ALL!  That will never change unless the masses take a stand and do something about it.  But, that'll never happen because the majority are too content and satisfied with all their little implements and distractions.  Throw em a bone and they'll go lay next to their dish and chew on it.

BTW, I heard Ray Rice is changing his name to Hugh Janus. 

[ReaPsTA]

Yeah Reap, we live in a world of Greed, Politics and Power.  Morality doesn't factor into that equation, AT ALL!  That will never change unless the masses take a stand and do something about it.  But, that'll never happen because the majority are too content and satisfied with all their little implements and distractions.  Throw em a bone and they'll go lay next to their dish and chew on it.

To me, nothing about our reality tells us any differently.  But now it's a general PR thing and not a sports thing.  I'm cool with not talking about Ray Rice in this thread again unless a new news story comes out.  I'm not sure what else there is to say.

[cramx3]

Uh, he was. He copped a plea down to a misdemeanor and was shown some leniency. And [possibly] unlike the league, Johnny had the video to go by.

I'm not sure he gets that opportunity if he isn't a famous and wealthy professional athlete.

I do wonder if he got off lightly because of his celebrity status, or because the fiance didnt want to press charges.  I have to think that her responses to the whole thing were what lead to such an initial small penalty.

[hefdaddy42]

I am inclined to believe it was because she didn't press charges, NOT because of any celebrity status.

[wkiml]

https://www.tmz.com/2014/09/10/us-congress-roger-goodell-letter-ray-rice-domestic-violence-video/


Congress wants answers as to what Goodell knew

[cramx3]

As much as I want to know the truth about Goodell in this, I really would prefer if congress did not get involved in this matter. 

[bosk1]

Congress really has no business getting involved.

[ReaPsTA]

Congress really has no business getting involved.

I mostly agree.  The one caveat is that the NFL is able to operate under special legal protections (the soon to be rescinded blackout rule and its anti-trust protection).  So congress does have an interest in making sure it's not giving out those exceptions to a business that doesn't service the public interest heavily enough to deserve them.

[El Barto]

Congress really has no business getting involved.

I agree. I also don't think this constitutes much involvement. They sent a letter asking what the league knew, and presumably that letterhead will get a more forthcoming response. This doesn't bug me. If they decide to go further than this it certainly will, though.

[ReaPsTA]

Uh oh:

AP source: Police sent Ray Rice tape to NFL in April

If true, Goodell's done.

EDIT:  I read Goodell's memo on the issue.  What he argues is that evidence inappropriately gathered should not be used in an NFL investigation.  This doesn't matter.  The NBA kicked out Sterling based on a TMZ video that was possibly illegally recorded.  The precedent has been set that the means of acquiring the evidence doesn't matter.  If it's out there, it should be acted on.

EDIT 2:  He might keep his job for the time being because there's still room for him to weasel his way out, but his credibility will be destroyed forever.

[bosk1]

EDIT:  I read Goodell's memo on the issue.  What he argues is that evidence inappropriately gathered should not be used in an NFL investigation.  This doesn't matter.  The NBA kicked out Sterling based on a TMZ video that was possibly illegally recorded.  The precedent has been set that the means of acquiring the evidence doesn't matter.  If it's out there, it should be acted on.

Okay, BUT I would argue that society is well served by realizing that some precedent is bad precedent, and then reversing or disregarding that bad precedent.

[ReaPsTA]

Okay, BUT I would argue that society is well served by realizing that some precedent is bad precedent, and then reversing or disregarding that bad precedent.

To be upfront - I think your point is completely fair.

I guess the problem is the practical reality of it.  After the Sterling tape came out, you couldn't feasibly go to the players and say "Okay, guys, yes, one of our owners has been recorded dehumanizing black people.  But you should still have to participate in games against his team when he's sitting in the arena."  Or, in the case of Ray Rice, it's hard to say "Okay guys, yes it turns out he's a wife beater, but we're not going to do anything about it.  Please buy our pink breast cancer awareness gear."

The actual court system shouldn't work this way, yes.  But I'm not sure sports leagues can do things that way.  Player boycotts were waiting if Sterling wasn't punished hard enough.  And, now that all the Ray Rice stuff is coming out, Congress is asking the NFL what's up.

To stress, your point might be completely right.  In five to ten years, we might be looking at Sterling's forcible exit as the first step in creating an oppressive mob rule.

[cramx3]

A precedent in the NBA has no meaning in the NFL.

Regardless, if Gooddell saw the tape then he should be fired.  Not only for being a poor judgement on justice, but for then lying about it after the fact and giving excuses for his reasoning. 

I initially liked the idea of Gooddell being the judge, jury, and executioner just for the idea that it would help the image of the NFL with all the crimes committed by players, but at this point, its not working out at all and one person should not have that much power.

[bosk1]

Reap, I hear you.  And I'm not sure what the ultimate answer is.  But I feel the pendulum swinging too far, and it makes me very uncomfortable with where we are going.

[ReaPsTA]

A precedent in the NBA has no meaning in the NFL.

Bills just sold for 1.4 billion because of the huge Clippers sale.

The NFL and NBA, when they locked out their players, moved to decrease the players' share of the revenue in part because each league knew the other was doing the same thing.  The NHL also moved to implement more owner-friendly monetary policies in their lockout based on what the NBA and NFL did.

The different sports leagues absolutely take cues from each other.

[El Barto]

If this is true then it's definitely a case of the coverup being far greater than the crime. I think the video changes nothing, but he's been too steadfast in his denial of having seen it to be exposed now for lying. That said, all we know is that some chick said it was terrible. That doesn't mean it was actually disseminated through the NFL (although that's not a particularly plausible or comforting explanation).

To stress, your point might be completely right.  In five to ten years, we might be looking at Sterling's forcible exit as the first step in creating an oppressive mob rule.

Some of us were looking at it 5 months ago. It was disturbing then and each new example makes me less comfortable. Like I mentioned a day or two ago, this is going to work it's way beyond sports and businesses.

[cramx3]

A precedent in the NBA has no meaning in the NFL.

Bills just sold for 1.4 billion because of the huge Clippers sale.

The NFL and NBA, when they locked out their players, moved to decrease the players' share of the revenue in part because each league knew the other was doing the same thing.  The NHL also moved to implement more owner-friendly monetary policies in their lockout based on what the NBA and NFL did.

The different sports leagues absolutely take cues from each other.

but precedence means nothing interleague.  Yes they do cues from one another as they are similar businesses.  Doesnt mean that if something happens in one league, it must happen in another.

[ReaPsTA]

but precedence means nothing interleague.  Yes they do cues from one another as they are similar businesses.  Doesnt mean that if something happens in one league, it must happen in another.

Not necessarily, but the court of public opinion disagrees.  For a business relying on public perception, that's all that matters.

Or, hey, let's look at the NFL's own internal precedent.  When Goodell suspended Sean Payton, he said that if he didn't know about the bounty activities, then he should have.  Ignorance wasn't an excuse.  Why isn't he holding himself up to his own standard?

[TAC]

Or, hey, let's look at the NFL's own internal precedent.  When Goodell suspended Sean Payton, he said that if he didn't know about the bounty activities, then he should have.  Ignorance wasn't an excuse.  Why isn't he holding himself up to his own standard?

THAT's a GREAT point.

[cramx3]

but precedence means nothing interleague.  Yes they do cues from one another as they are similar businesses.  Doesnt mean that if something happens in one league, it must happen in another.

Not necessarily, but the court of public opinion disagrees.  For a business relying on public perception, that's all that matters.

Or, hey, let's look at the NFL's own internal precedent.  When Goodell suspended Sean Payton, he said that if he didn't know about the bounty activities, then he should have.  Ignorance wasn't an excuse.  Why isn't he holding himself up to his own standard?

Precedence /= or have anything to do with public opinion... you are correlating the two and im not arguing that because I agree.

Also, yes that Is a really good point regarding Goodell and ignorance.

[El Barto]

Or, hey, let's look at the NFL's own internal precedent.  When Goodell suspended Sean Payton, he said that if he didn't know about the bounty activities, then he should have.  Ignorance wasn't an excuse.  Why isn't he holding himself up to his own standard?

THAT's a GREAT point.

Why? Ignorance of what? The existence of the video, or the content?

(and not singling out TAC--just using the most applicable post to raise the question)

[TAC]

Both, I guess.
In his own words, he even "assumed" there was a video. He can't even plead ignorance.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Or, hey, let's look at the NFL's own internal precedent.  When Goodell suspended Sean Payton, he said that if he didn't know about the bounty activities, then he should have.  Ignorance wasn't an excuse.  Why isn't he holding himself up to his own standard?

THAT's a GREAT point.

That's a brilliant point.

Hope that the truth comes out once and for all, though I'm not holding my breath.

[El Barto]

I guess I'm going to wait for somebody to spell out the logic of the ignorance is no excuse thing. I just don't get how it matters.