The Official 2013 NFL Thread

[Perpetual Change]

Comparing him to Vick or Culpepper is just a straw man argument since nobody made those comparisons

Well, jingle.boy did, and he just made them again. 

Your subjective feelings aside, there is no good reason at all to put him in that category.

I liked McNabb, but I'm not an Eagles fans. I am from the area, and have always just been amazed at how whiny Eagles fans seemed to be about having McNabb on their team.

Make your case on 1 or 0 Super Bowl victory quarterbacks that played a significant portion of their career in the 90's and 00's and are considered all time greats. I don't know, I'm not going to search, but I'd like to see the comparison you have.

Joe Namath.

(Okay, lol, I realize he doesn't count, since he was a pioneer kinda invented how the position is actually played:P )

How about Boomer Esaison or Jim Everett? Jim Kelly?

[yorost]

Those two are considered all time greats?

[KevShmev]

Pretty sure McNabb was the first NFL QB to throw 30+ TDs and less than 10 INTs in one season. He was definitely one of the best QBs in the league during his prime imo.

Yup. If he could have ended that season with the SB win, or if he could have just had one or two more like it, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
 

Those ifs are nice, but he didn't.

And he is the best ever for the Eagles.

So?  This reminds me of my brother's friend who tried to tell us at a fantasy football draft a few years ago that Donald Driver was gonna be in the Hall of Fame simply because he was the leading WR in Green Bay Packer history.  Being the best ever for the Eagles is completely meaningless.

Plus, I think there's something to be said for McNabb's style of play. McNabb was one of the first who (among others) really started to bring mobility to the forefront of NFL Quaterbacking.

That is not true at all.  Have you never heard of John Elway, Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, etc.?

How you compare to the peers of your generation is very important, and McNabb simply does not match up when you consider that the following quarterbacks (all of whom were at their peak at some point during McNabb's career, which started in the late 90s) are all higher than McNabb on the all-time great list:

Peyton
Brady
Warner
Favre
Brees
Roethlisberger
Rodgers
Eli

And you could make the argument for others like Rivers, Romo or even Flacco at this point.  Even if you put McNabb ahead of those guys, does being the 9th best quarterback of your generation really make you a Hall of Famer, especially when you have no ring?  Absolutely not.

[Perpetual Change]

Those two are considered all time greats?

Well, Kelly is hall of fame and lots of people think Boomer Esaison should be.

And Kev, duly noted. Again, I think McNabb deserves more credit than just being decent, and again I'd point to his consistency and sheer productivity. But, yeah, the Hall of Fame is just that, and unfortunately McNabb never did anything to win  himself enduring fame, aside for play really good Quarterback year after year.

I guess Skip Bayless is right, really. If you have to actually have to think about why a guy is HoF worthy and build the argument for it in your head, he's probably not.

[KevShmev]

Using something Skip Bayless to back up a point is never a good idea.

And that's bull shit, anyway.  Not everyone is gonna be a no-brainer Hall of Fame lock.  Some borderline players are worthy of making it. 

[Perpetual Change]

Eh, maybe, but it's a pretty good general rule for QBs. I could see maybe how it might not apply to other positions.

Who are some of the boderline QBs you think should be in?

[jingle.boy]

Being the best ever for the Eagles is completely meaningless.

Well, it's tantamount to being the tallest dude at a midget convention.

[Big Hath]

Being the best ever for the Eagles is completely meaningless.

Well, it's tantamount to being the tallest dude at a midget convention.

oh, come on!  There was Cunningham, and Jaworski, and . . . Guido Merkens?!?

[KevShmev]

Eh, maybe, but it's a pretty good general rule for QBs. I could see maybe how it might not apply to other positions.

Who are some of the boderline QBs you think should be in?

Well, I would consider Warner, Eli and Roethlisberger to all be borderline cases, or not no-brainer locks, but I think Warner will make it because of rags to riches story and for taking two previously poor franchises to the Super Bowl.  Eli will probably make it eventually, so long as he doesn't drop off and become average again; two Super Bowl wins and MVP awards go a long way.  Same with Roethlisberger, who is very borderline right now, but his two rings will help him a lot.

[cramx3]

Its hard to say about Eli and Big Ben right now since both are mid career and both won Super Bowls early.  I think Eli has a slight edge being the MVP both wins and Big Ben has had great defenses (and even Jerome Bettis for his first SB) although I know that the Giants won both thier superbowls by defense too, but those teams were carried by Eli in those playoff runs.  Like it or not, Eli also has the name Manning which I think means something for him, fair or not.  However, I can see both missing the HOF if they die off for the remainder of thier career.  I think we all know both QBs can be great, but we also know that both can be pretty bad at times. 

McNabb is also probably the best QB in Eagles history.  It's not saying much, but the guy was great for them even though they never won anything.

[KevShmev]

Eh, Bettis was nothing more than a glorified goal line back that year in Pittsburgh (with his only notable postseason play being the fumble that nearly cost them the game against the Colts). 

But yeah, Eli definitely has the big edge on Ben as of now, and given his style of play, you have to wonder if Roethlisberger's body will hold up over the back half of his career enough for him to make his case stronger for the Hall. 

[Perpetual Change]

Eh, Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning are both shoe-ins, I think, especially the latter. Two rings and in general consistently excellent play over the early and middle stages of their respective careers means that even if either guy is just average from here on out they'll still be remembered as great. In my opinion, the guys would have to absolutely tank for as many years as they've been good at this point to undo what they've done. Of course, that could change. But I really can't see it happening.

McNabb is also probably the best QB in Eagles history.  It's not saying much, but the guy was great for them even though they never won anything.

I don't t hink it's a probably. It's a definitely.  I'm pretty sure he holds like all of their passing records

As a sports city, Philly just can't seem to keep it together. They have teams that dominate occasionally, but never for long, and periods of mediocrity can last eons. Regardless of what Philly fans think of McNabb now, something tells me they'll remember him fondly if Chip Kelly doesn't work out.

[yorost]

Passing records don't mean much across eras, though. We're in a pass happy time with more games than the older days.  Arnie Herber is one of the Packer's all time great quarterbacks and he probably isn't on any of the team's lists. I rank him only behind Starr. Favre kills all the lists, but I'd still leave him at 3. Rodgers and Isbell round out my top 5 if anyone is curious.

[cramx3]

Eh, Bettis was nothing more than a glorified goal line back that year in Pittsburgh (with his only notable postseason play being the fumble that nearly cost them the game against the Colts). 

He was, but he was also a HOFer on that team and definitely will get and deserves to get some respect for winning that SB.

Also, Eli Manning's career has not been consistent at all.  He usually has a good year followed by a bad year and so on.  His bad years aren't terrible, but if he plays long enough he will break Brett Favre's career INT record.

[yorost]

If he breaks Favre's interception record he's just proven how worthy he is as a quarterback.  Don't know who it should be attributed to, but you can't accumulate bad stats unless they keep giving you the ball.

[cramx3]

True, no one is going to let you throw that many TDs unless you win games, but it still says something as a QB.  In Favre's case, he was a wild slinger, but in Eli's case, I dont know, he just throws terrible passes sometimes.  Favre mostly threw gutsy passes that ended up in INTs.  I guess since I've watched Eli through his whole Giants career and only watched Favre more towards the end of his career, I see Eli's INT's as being poorer than Favre's.

[yorost]

I'm not calling interceptions good, you've got a point. No matter how those picks end up being thrown, somebody thinks he's worth dealing with it for.

Favre was a gunslinger like that his whole career. Loved it, but you knew he was going to get picked. Very different experience watching Favre vs Rodgers. Brute force gambler vs precise caretaker (I didn't think about that for more than five seconds, go easy on me if it's a bad comparison! ).

[KevShmev]

Also, Eli Manning's career has not been consistent at all.  He usually has a good year followed by a bad year and so on.  His bad years aren't terrible, but if he plays long enough he will break Brett Favre's career INT record.

Very true.  Hell, Eli has led the league in INTs in two of the past six seasons, and he has never finished in the top 3 in passing touchdowns.  I think he will get in the Hall if he stays on this trajectory, mostly thanks to his rings and MVP awards, but to say he has generally been consistently excellent is simply untrue.  Even last year, when he had 26 touchdowns and 15 interceptions (a stat line inflated by throwing 5 TDs and 0 INTs in Week 17 against an Eagles team that had long tanked), he had that absolutely dreadful mid-season stretch.

[Perpetual Change]

Okay, here's a question.

You're putting together an NFL team, and all the players from all the eras are available to you. Unfortunately, you're pretty low in the draft, and there are only two QBs left. Who do you pick? Eli Manning, or Donovan McNabb?

(Age isn't a factor)

I think you go with Donovan.

[bosk1]

I'd take Eli and roll the dice.  Without any hesitation.

[El Barto]

Donovan. And then right before every game, tell him he's going to be fired because black people can't play quarterback and because he personally is a pussy. Before big games, break some mostly unimportant but tremendously painful bone somewhere in one of his feet.

[yorost]

I'd take Eli and roll the dice.  Without any hesitation.

This, and I've disliked Eli since the draft fiasco.

[KevShmev]

Eli, for sure.  He is more durable, his upside is higher and he has that "it" factor when it comes to playing big at the end of games.

[Perpetual Change]

Donovan. And then right before every game, tell him he's going to be fired because black people can't play quarterback and because he personally is a pussy. Before big games, break some mostly unimportant but tremendously painful bone somewhere in one of his feet.

Speaking of, I do find it kinda disturbing that there's still *some* tendency in the sports media to put black players, especially Quarterbacks, into these tiny, stereotypical boxes, where they're supposedly lazier, and dumber, than other players. Obviously I remember Donovan and others getting this treatment too.  The way Philly fans and the Philly media talk about Donovan still to this day, you'd think they were stuck with JaMarcus Russell for a decade.

It's kinda telling how, in the sports media, the stereotype that blacks are lazy and arrogant and stupid still lives on in such a subconscious, implicit way.

Already happening with Geno Smith, too. The guy has his coaches and people who've worked with him on record saying that he's a hard worker with a great work ethic. Doesn't matter. He made some poor judgment with his twitter, and some people said he's lazy anonymous to Bleacher Report, and he got upset on draft day, so he must be the next JaMarcus Russell.

[hefdaddy42]

Kelly is hall of fame and lots of people think Boomer Esaison should be.

I'm sure that lots of people in the Esaison household feel that way, but I haven't seen that sentiment anywhere else.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I don't know anyone who thinks Esiason should be in the Hall.

[cramx3]

Listening to Boomer on the radio regularly, I'm pretty sure he doesn't see himself as a HOFer

[KevShmev]

Even if the Bengals had stopped Montana and the 49ers on that final drive and the Bengals won that Super Bowl, Esiason still wouldn't be a Hall of Fame quarterback. 

[Perpetual Change]

Well, Garrard's done. At least he's being a man and admitting it.

Guess Sanchez has one less thing to worry about now.

But given his inability to effectively read defenses, his accuracy problems, and his below average mobility and ball handling, I'd still be just as worried if I were him. Both Geno Smith AND Greg McElroy seem like they'd be able to do better than him in those categories, which makes them potentially better candidates for the Marty's West Coast offense.

Sure, Geno Smith had a lot of fumbles in college, but he also ran a lot, and he never fumbled the ball of anyone's butt.

[antigoon]

I wonder if Garrard's departure makes Sanchez's staying more likely. Not because he would have won the starting job but because he could mentor starter Geno Smith.

[cramx3]

Yea, I doubt Sanchez is off this team now.  They have three QBs now, although they really have none at the moment.

[Perpetual Change]

Eh, now THAT is your typical ESPN talking point, cram

Geno Smith is probably ready to start. That and his showing development over four years as a college starter are what gave him the edge on the other QBs in this year's draft. He might not have as much potential as EJ Manuel, but he's already a pretty well-rounded, well-developed player (unless he just can't handle the pros for some reason).

Mark Sanchez had an awful year last year, and he likely never will be the QB most people thought he could develop into, but he's already shown that he can be a starter who carries his own weight when he's got a decent team around him. How many QBs could have been successful on the Jets last year-- a team with no WR's, no capacity for establishing a run, an awful game planning on the Offensive Coordinator side?

Greg McElroy and Matt Simms, I really don't know. McElroy obviously needs to do some maturing. Matt Simms will get cut most likely.

[KevShmev]

You know the East Coast bias is alive and kicking when a quarterback who hasn't played since 2010 is talked about this much, simply because he was the backup for the New York Jets.  If he had been the backup for the Texans or Chiefs, no one would have paid this story any attention.

[cramx3]

Well it wasnt just that he was a back up, but he was at a point, one of many many QBs on the roster and one of arguably a few who could have beaten out the starter.  We will see what happens I guess...

Eh, now THAT is your typical ESPN talking point, cram

Yup, after I typed it, I was like, "sounds like a typical statement from a talking head" I mean, it is pretty much true though.

[Perpetual Change]

You know the East Coast bias is alive and kicking when a quarterback who hasn't played since 2010 is talked about this much, simply because he was the backup for the New York Jets.  If he had been the backup for the Texans or Chiefs, no one would have paid this story any attention.

It's a gift and a curse, trust me. Especially since most of the talk is constant bullshit from beat reporters who make it their personal mission to snuff out every little story of whiff of a scandal they can get from the team.

I mean, it is pretty much true though.

lol, but it's not. I mean, yes, ESPN pounded us with it every single game last year, but no, contrary to popular belief, the QB wasn't even the Jets main problem last year. The Jets had/have a QB. They did not have a running back, a wide receiver, or a gameplan. They could use a better QB, obviously, but he was still 2 or 3 or 4 notches down on the list of priorities. And, BTW, that's why the Jets stuck with Sanchez for so long last season, and that's also why drafting Geno Smith was an afterthought for them.

BUT IT'S ALL ABOUT THE QB