Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Kotowboy]

Force Awakens had lots of problems.

I know it goes without saying - but - compared to the prequels it may as well have been Empire Strikes Back.

I think it did exactly what it *needed* to do.

[Adami]

Force Awakens had lots of problems.

I know it goes without saying - but - compared to the prequels it may as well have been Empire Strikes Back.

I think it did exactly what it *needed* to do.

No doubt. And I loved the hell out of it. Still had a lot of problems.

[Kotowboy]

What film doesn't ?

[Calvin6s]

I dunno... It really doesn't seem far-fetched to me at all. Maybe I'm not being analytical enough, but I loved that final duel.

If it is simply that she is a prodigy, then why did she go from awful (not even ESB Luke) to ROTJ Luke in what was literally the blink of the eyes.

[Calvin6s]

No doubt. And I loved the hell out of it. Still had a lot of problems.

Share the problems.

[bosk1]

I dunno... It really doesn't seem far-fetched to me at all. Maybe I'm not being analytical enough, but I loved that final duel.

If it is simply that she is a prodigy, then why did she go from awful (not even ESB Luke) to ROTJ Luke in what was literally the blink of the eyes.

She didn't.  She was never awful.

I never really had too much problem with this fight.  Initially, I felt like she should not really have been able to best Kylo.  But given the injury, I didn't have too much problem with it.  It was only later that I noodled through the fact that he isn't really that well-trained, in all likelihood.  But that's kinda the thing: if you really have to spend that much time after the fact noodling through why a particular plot point actually works and isn't a mistake, then it perhaps wasn't set up/explained all that well in the film.  But again, not a huge deal.  Even if all it amounts to is that it really is a plot hole, it isn't one that is big enough to be a major issue.

[Kotowboy]

They already set up well ahead of time that he is rough round the edges and loses his temper and isn't in control. Even his homemade lightsaber is shoddy and not perfect.

Coupled with his desperation and being severely injured - the fight is fine.  As well as having set up that Rey can handle herself in a fight.

They didn't just meet randomly and were like " let's do this " and Rey was the better one just because..

[bosk1]

They already set up well ahead of time that he is rough round the edges and loses his temper and isn't in control. Even his homemade lightsaber is shoddy and not perfect.

Yeah, but none of that translates to making the average viewer believe he is going to have problems in a fight against someone who has not been formally trained.  And since so large a group of people had an issue getting over this hurdle, I don't think it is something that can just be dismissed as being adequately set up.  Of course, there is always the possibility that it was intentional and we are meant to be speculating like this until the next film because leaving it open sets up something important later.  But if not, I again come back to: it could have been set up or resolved a little better.

[Adami]

What film doesn't ?

Bill and Ted's bogus journey.

[Adami]

No doubt. And I loved the hell out of it. Still had a lot of problems.

Share the problems.

Nah. I was just making a point that I didn't feel the fights were a problem. I'm not a huge SW fan and have no desire to criticize the movie in detail. Like I said, I enjoyed the hell out of it.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I dunno... It really doesn't seem far-fetched to me at all. Maybe I'm not being analytical enough, but I loved that final duel.

If it is simply that she is a prodigy, then why did she go from awful (not even ESB Luke) to ROTJ Luke in what was literally the blink of the eyes.

Well, keep in mind that at the beginning of the film, she went from not being able to get the Millennium Falcon off the ground to kicking the First Order's ass in about five minutes. Seems like once she tries something, she nails it down pretty quick.

[Calvin6s]

I wouldn't toss out the term plot hole as many so easily do with just about every other movie.

Having watched the movie a few times, I did notice Chewie's bowcaster was not throwing Stormtroopers back while he was escaping immediately after he winged Kylo on the far left of his abdomen.  So if we are going to say they set it up as a powerful weapon, they set it up as standard during that part of the movie.

She was awful with the lightsaber prior to blinking her eyes.  It seems pretty clear that she tapped not into the light but the dark side of the force with her blink (although the Buddhist Monk meditation was a strange way to set it up).  Kylo then suddenly went from expertly handling his saber with moves that used his whole body to pivot his strength into the blow (like a boxer throwing a professional punch all the way down from their legs) to suddenly not knowing how to properly hold it.  He also went from overconfident (a la Vader ESB) to quick focus once he was aware the overconfidence made unnecessarily vulnerable (a la Vader ESB) and quickly used his saber skills to disarm and put down Finn.  Then he did a nice saber move to reach, connect and guide Rey's saber into a losing position.  At which point she blinked her eyes and everything fast forwarded to ROTJ Luke calling on the dark side to angrily beat down the opponent.

So plenty to suggest Kylo was far from a lightsaber novice.  But you can even go back to him expertly deflecting Rey's blaster shots on Takodana.  Not only is he calmly walking toward her, not only does he keep his forward momentum, not only does he block the shots from what was just established as sniper level shooter, but he syncs the motion up perfectly to end with a force paralyzation move.  Just because he isn't a Sith (which is more lineage than some black belt level) doesn't mean he is suddenly not very good.  There's a lot of area between beginner and master.  A lot of area that always takes training to reach.

The fact that he throws a fit doesn't mean he's suddenly bad with the saber.  Anakin also threw fits when he was considered one of the best duelists.

Perhaps Rey's special force power is she drains the skills from other users?

But this isn't what Adami was referring to.  And problems doesn't always mean plot holes.  It could be writing or character development or many other things.  I'm going to post a couple tweak ideas I had on TFA for fun.

[Calvin6s]

There are some things I think could have been tweaked.  Not to suggest it should have been done or is even better, but more just having fun with story and plot ideas.

It might have been cool to see Chewie fire at Kylo, Kylo stop it a few feet away from him similar to the beginning of the movie but "closer call" only to have the bolt go RPG in midair and cause the damage that way.  Maybe even create some facial damage right then and there.  Maybe even cause massive shockwave damage to his extended arm, making him fight Rey with his less dominant hand.

Another problem I hear a lot is that people didn't feel the same tension with the Death Star reboot as the original.  Part of the problem is the rush to come up with the plan at the Resistance Base.  The other part is as much as fans love Poe, it wasn't the same as fearing for Luke, Solo, Leia or Chewie's life that were more fully developed in the original Star Wars.  There is also the problem that everybody knew the attack was going to be successful.

So some minor reworking of the same elements.  Maybe the movie starts with the crawl talking about The Republic flourishing but at odds with Leia's Resistance.  The Republic feels fighting a now decimated Empire down to its last remnants is counterproductive and creating more Republic enemies than saving them.  (Sound familiar?)  The crawl ends with The Resistance having just secured another planet from Imperial Remnants.

Unnamed planet, Leia getting on a ship as she tells the planet’s ruling government they are now free and encourages them to rejoin the Republic.  Maybe some talk about the missing Rebel Alliance hero, Luke Skywalker and Leia saying something like “he’s done enough.  With the light at the end of the tunnel near, he doesn’t need to be a war hero any longer.”  A sister covering for her gone rogue brother.

No sooner than Leia and most (but not all) of the Reistance fighters leave the planet, we see the dreaded (but unknown to the Republic, Resistance or viewer) Starkiller blast vaporize the recently *freed* planet.

This is the equivalent to the A New Hope “holy crap.  Look at that ship” Star Destroyer moment.  It takes the viewer from “so this is going to be about the New Republic setting up the Old Republic again.  Borin …. Holy Crap!!!”  Moment out of nowhere.  It also sets up an immediate threat that hadn’t been seen in 30 years. 

Leia now has a serious reason to find Luke.  After years of success, in an instant she feels small and in need of help.  Go find ‘em Poe.  Similar TFA story to follow except:

Like a terrorist, The First Order makes themselves known claiming responsibility.  Pointing out the aggressive moves of Leia’s Resistance not honoring the Republic-Empire truce.  Declares war on the Resistance, but not on the Republic.  The First Order names its second target.  The Resistance base.  The Republic blames Leia’s Resistance.  “We told you that you were playing with fire.  You need to go back to the Senator/Diplomat of your youth and fix this.”

She doesn’t.  Instead, very early on (rush attack fixed) they work on how to destroy Starkiller Base.  The other parts of the story are mainly kept in tact.  Those arcs don’t change all that much.

Fast forward to the ending battle led up to as before.  Chewie RPG goes off as said before.  Chewie pushes the detonator and … incomplete explosion.  Han did not finish setting his explosives because he was sidetracked by Kylo Ben.  Chewie is a sitting duck, so Rey and Finn don’t run, but try to help him with the other detonators then escape.  Lightsaber battle begins inside SKB.  Intense battle, even moving out into the snow (as they are trying to escape to the Falcon – and we get the cool saber snow effects).  Finn starts, but Rey saves him, just like before.  She also does pretty well against a blast damaged, broken arm Ren.  We expect them to pull it off but instead, SKB fires. (Wait, I was so sure they were going to stop it like in ANH)  The Resistance isn’t full of idiots, so they already abandoned the base.  Except, now we get The Republic destruction.  The Resistance Base target was a misdirect.  The First Order has gone from non-existent to a bigger threat than the scattered Imperials now to the imposing force of the galaxy again.  Big dynamic change from the opening crawl.  Also sets up the underdog again.

The incomplete detonation wasn’t enough to stop the SKB fire, but it did do enough damage that SKB’s firing achieves its goal of destroying much of the Republic, but also creates serious problems.  The base puts out an evac signal.  Damaged but still being bad ass, Kylo Ren abandons the capture attempt of Rey, Finn, Chewie.  It is clear that SKB will take major repair to fire again.

All the more reason to not waste time and find Luke …. End as the movie did.

[Kotowboy]

What film doesn't ?

Bill and Ted's bogus journey.

lolno the first film is a fuck ton better.

[Zantera]

I don't think there were any big problems with TFA tbh. If you're gonna be that nitpicky and say TFA had a lot of problems, then the same applies to the original trilogy.

[Kotowboy]

I don't think there were any big problems with TFA tbh. If you're gonna be that nitpicky and say TFA had a lot of problems, then the same applies to the original trilogy.

or any film.

[Adami]

I don't think there were any big problems with TFA tbh. If you're gonna be that nitpicky and say TFA had a lot of problems, then the same applies to the original trilogy.

I only saw it once, so perhaps my problems would be better explained with a second viewing, but I had a few moments where it took me out of the movie with how odd the story writing was.

The original trilogy also has problems. I don't know why it would be held as perfect. I just consider TFA's problems to be more indicative of modern writing problems. But I'd definitely hold TFA to be on the same level as at least Return of the Jedi.

[Calvin6s]

It is funny that TFA *extremists* feel the need to constantly go after the PT and OT instead of just discussing what people have observed.

Right now, TFA still has the possibility to turn just about any shortcoming into an awe-inspiring reveal.

I've witnessed quite a few lists of TFA *plot holes* (catch all word these days it seems).  The two biggest seem to be Rey's path, the Death Star to Starkiller side by side comparison and the then rushed plan.  There are a ton more, but those seem to be the two most talked about and usually get the most agreement.

Talking about a movie series that has affected many people their entire lives should be fun.

[King Postwhore]

Any of you have Twitter?   If so like Emo Kylo Ren. It will not dissapoint.

[BlackInk]

I've seen a few of those posts, and yeah they're pretty funny.

[Kotowboy]

Not SW related but the twitter accounts that are completely and utterly pointless are the ones that are

• Profile pic of a famous comic actor
• The name ever so slightly spelled wrong
• All they tweet is jokes which that comic actor has never said - which every other of these "parody" accounts re uses.

And people follow them !

[Calvin6s]

Path of a Lightsaber

Cool video showing the path of Anakin's lightsaber.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Not sure why I just thought about this, but here she goes:

I recently took a mini-vacation and re-watched the LOTR trilogy. It was a glorious experience, obviously, but there were a few things that I think people would absolutely destroy if the films came out today, such as the Army of the Dead being freed before the men go to the Black Gates rather than holding onto them for a little longer, in which case Sauron would have been pwned. I'm sure there's a perfectly fine reason for this, but it wasn't explained in detail, which I could see the internet being up in arms over.

I guess my main point is that I think people get way too worked up about stuff on the internet, which happened a lot with The Force Awakens.

[Zantera]

Yeah but in the defense of that scene, Aragorn (or the other characters for that matter) has no idea how events will unfold at that point. He is asked to uphold his promise and he does, because the battle is over. It's not until later that they decide to storm the black gate, and even then the plan was only to draw the troops out so that Frodo could finish the job.

[Orbert]

The real reason is because they needed the Army of the Dead to get past a particular problem, but keeping them around to finish off Sauron would've made it way too easy (as you said), so they had to be released in order to keep up the dramatic tension.  It wasn't really explained in the movie, and if there was an explanation in the book, it didn't stick with me.  I think you're basically supposed to not think about that.  There are a number of major and minor conflicts along the way to The Big One at the End, and if you think about it, The Big One at the End isn't really the big one anyway.  Once the ring is destroyed, everything pretty much falls apart and The Good Guys don't really have to do anything but stand there and watch it all crumble.

But back to your point.  Yeah, folks on the Internet love to pick apart every little detail.  It's amazing how many people say things like "Overall, I loved it and found it very entertaining, but here is my list of 117 things that I found wrong with it".

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I agree with both of you.

[Kotowboy]

I hate it too. Nobody can just enjoy anything anymore.

Cinema SINS

Everything wrong with...

How.... SHOULD have ended.

Why .... ACTUALLY SUCKS!!!!!





It's like if something is successful or popular - people NEED to PROVE that it's shit.

[Adami]

I hate it too. Nobody can just enjoy anything anymore.

Cinema SINS

Everything wrong with...

How.... SHOULD have ended.

Why .... ACTUALLY SUCKS!!!!!





It's like if something is successful or popular - people NEED to PROVE that it's shit.

Those things are meant to be comedic. No one wants to watch "How it actually ended.....". And have you ever seen Cinemasins? They are actually pretty interesting in pointing out critical issues that one wouldn't have thought of, but also sin for things like "Jessica Alba is not my girlfriend" and so forth. It's a mixture of comedic entertainment and authentic critique. They also have been known to actually remove sins for awesome things.

Unless you're arguing that no one should ever critique anything, and that people should just turn off their brains for all movies?

As far as HISHE and Cinemasins go, they usually do movies they themselves love. They're not trying to prove anything sucks. They're just having a good time while making you think.

[bosk1]

HISHE is hysterical.  I'm not sure how those can be taken as nitpicking films.  That isn't their agenda at all. 

[BlobVanDam]

HISHE videos are never actually "it should have ended this way because we know better" anyway, they're just parodies that make a fun skit out of a movie. When they raise problems with movies, they're doing so for humor, not for the sake of being critical.

I have no problem with people actually analyzing entertainment critically. It's just a shame it hasn't resulted in Hollywood raising their standards at all.
In the case of TFA, the discussion and debate has actually improved my opinion of the movie, because people had good explanations for a lot of the problems I had, and it made me realize that a lot of the issues I had are really just gaps that future films may yet fill in.

[BlackInk]

HISHE is really funny, and while I don't think that CinemaSins is overly funny (as in I don't really laugh a lot), I do think they are one of the most enjoyable channel's to watch on YouTube. I often watch a few sins-videos while eating.

[bosk1]

...while I don't think that CinemaSins is overly funny (as in I don't really laugh a lot), I do think they are one of the most enjoyable channel's to watch on YouTube. I often watch a few sins-videos while eating.

I haven't seen any of those.  Will have to check out.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

HISHE is awesome.

[Orbert]

In the case of TFA, the discussion and debate has actually improved my opinion of the movie, because people had good explanations for a lot of the problems I had, and it made me realize that a lot of the issues I had are really just gaps that future films may yet fill in.

I swing back and forth on this one.  First, yeah, I came out of TFA feeling pretty mixed and downright disappointed about some things, but people have pointed out that many of the problems I had really were explained and I just didn't catch them, or I needed to think about it more and they made more sense than I thought.

But there are at least a couple of rather big things about TFA that just weren't explained at all (the First Order, the Knights of Ren, Snoke) and I feel like if you put too much off and say "It will all be explained later" then you really are detracting from the movie we're currently watching.  What if, by some ridiculous event, no more sequels get made?  We're left with a movie that's fun, but a bunch of stuff that was never explained.  I have no problem with some things getting filled in later, but if you have to constantly handwave various points just to get through the movie, my arms get tired.

Each Star Wars movie starts with a crawl.  Why not give us just a bit of backstory regarding the origins of one or two of the biggies, and drop a line or two along the way for some of the others?  It would have gone a long way towards not making it seem like all it's doing is setting up the next couple of movies.

[Kotowboy]

The cinema sins guy's voice is super irritating