Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[cramx3]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.  Something about it just doesn't sit right with me.  It's almost the same thing with the Jaime Lannister character, how there was this massive redemptive arc going on, culminating in him raping his sister again.  Sansa has gone through all this bullshit, her character has been through the wringer, been at the mercy of men ever since she left winterfell, all to return home and become prey for another male.  It's just getting a bit old for me - perhaps that's the reason I'm not digging this season as much, there haven't been any new tricks as of late, just the same old shit.

The Jamie rape was so poorly done by the show.  It wasn't even rape in the books and the show writers said it wasn't rape in the show, but if you watch, it sure looks like rape to mean (and sounds like rape when Cersei says No).  They killed Jaime's character with that scene because he was supposed to be redeemed in many ways after season 3 by helping Brienne and the continuing that redemption in the current season by helping his daughter (in the books, he does other things to also redeem himself).

[sneakyblueberry]

The Jamie rape was so poorly done by the show.  It wasn't even rape in the books and the show writers said it wasn't rape in the show, but if you watch, it sure looks like rape to mean (and sounds like rape when Cersei says No).  They killed Jaime's character with that scene because he was supposed to be redeemed in many ways after season 3 by helping Brienne and the continuing that redemption in the current season by helping his daughter (in the books, he does other things to also redeem himself).

I think you're dead right.  It's awfully hard to feel any empathy for the character after that scene, which seems so counter-intutitive after all the redemption, like you say.  I feel like the same thing's happened with Sansa's character.  Its a shame to think that in both instances its the show making a complete balls up of the source material.

[RuRoRul]

I'm a bit surprised to see online the amount of backlash from critics over the Sansa rape scene, or people calling it unneccessary or a gratuitous addition by the show. I mean I thought the reaction to the Jaime-Cersei scene last year was overblown but I can at least understand where people were coming from, as my main reaction to it was "Huh?" It didn't really make sense and seemed like something that was just thrown in without too much thought. And considering that it turns out it was actually intended to just be another step in Jaime and Cersei's twisted and fucked up relationship (after all, remember this was basically the peak of their relationship before Jaime left King's Landing) rather than something people would interpret as straight-forward rape (and the directors clearly failed to get their intentions across) it makes sense that it became something people were reacting to strongly but seemed like a gratuitous, out of place addition to the show that wasn't treated as seriously in the story as it should have been.

But the Sansa scene does not have any of those problems. For one thing, it makes perfect sense and is completely logical. What did people expect to happen after their wedding? Marriages are expected to be consumated on the wedding night in Westeros - Sansa expected essentially this to happen to her after her wedding to Tyrion but he didn't want to go through with it. Were we really expecting that Ramsay Bolton wouldn't be a bad enough guy to do what Tyrion wouldn't? It is completely in character, and I can't really imagine what plot contrivances would have to happen for him to be fine with not consumating the marriage. Also remember the same thing (sans Theon) happened to Daenerys in the first episode. Except there (apart from the inclusion of Theon) things were arguably even worse. Sansa made the choice to come to Winterfell as part of a long game to get revenge on the Boltons. She may not have known what a fucked up bastard Ramsay really was, but she would have known what a wedding night entailed, and was willing to go through with it and make that sacrifice anyway. It doesn't matter what specific plan for revenge she actually has at the moment, or if she even has one, but the core idea and motivation is there: I will endure this to be back in my home and close to my enemies, but at some point the tables will turn (whether it's because of Stannis, Littlefinger, Brienne, or just some pissed off locals shouting "The North Remembers!") and this mummer's farce will be done. Daenerys didn't have that - she was married off without any choice and didn't even have part of a plan for how it was going to turn out. All she could do was accept her position and embrace her rapist and captors.

As for the scene itself, I thought the way it was done was perfect - nothing gratuitous was shown, and it was completely horrifying to audiences without the excessive brutality of the events in the book.  It also really drove home what a vital scene it was not just for Sansa and Ramsay but Theon. I know there are some people that think sexual violence is never neccessary in fiction (although murder and torture are apparently cool) but it's hard to see this rape just being something that was thrown in that won't have profound effect for the characters and plot going forward.

Lastly there's the "it's different from the book, so it's the show adding in more rape!" argument. Well, as has been said before the events in the book play out similarly except with a different girl - Jeyne Poole, who was Sansa's friend and companion in book 1, until her father was killed when Ned Stark was betrayed and she basically became a captive who was "trained" in a brothel, with whip marks to show for it. So yes, Sansa being raped by Ramsay is a change, but I almost wonder what it says that supposedly experienced TV critics are saying it's too far because it happens to Sansa, but it's fine for some other girl in very similar circumstances to be forced to do the same and worse, "with Ramsay or with the dog". The show chose to merge storylines to bring it's existing characters and actors together, rather than bring in a new character just to be a rape victim (something which would be complained about if they did it that way, too). And as for it being too different from Sansa's book storyline... well, (book spoilers ahead) as of The Winds Of Winter Sansa's current position is being led into a marriage by Littlefinger for political gain, to someone she describes as horrible ("The world is full of horrors," says Littlefinger when she protests this) while her friend named Myranda is jealous of who she is marrying... so I wouldn't be so confident that her current direction is "nothing like the books" yet.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, basically, all of ^that^

It always makes me laugh when people get surprised when an awful thing happens on a show known for awful things happening.

[Jaq]

Try having to talk your girlfriend who is a rape survivor out of the bout with PTSD reaction that scene triggered and you might figure out why it offended people.

This show's handling of sexualized violence to women is deplorable. The producers  took a liking to an already problematic scene from the books and completely destroyed Sansa's story as presented in the books and put her in a place that she isn't because they liked a scene where a woman got violently raped so much. It's bad enough that Martin felt the urge to include it-rape as The Horrible Thing That Happens To Women in fiction is such a fucking overused trope as it is-but the producers broke the fucking story to get Sansa there for it to happen. And then shot the scene to make it be about Theon. Last year they shot a rape scene and didn't even know they had. Women are killed in violent, degrading, horrific ways that serve no purpose in the story because it seems that's the default mode for dealing with women in the show.

I admit I have a massive fucking bias here. But when you know someone-love someone, for whom rape is something that happened to them, not a plot device, well, you tend to get really pissed off when things like this are played with cavalierly. Fuck this show, fuck the producers, fuck HBO, I'm fucking done with it.

[faizoff]

My sympathies to your girlfriend Jaq but I'm curious about one thing, why not abandon the show after the first episode? There's a brutal depiction in the first episode and then again an even more brutal depiction in the  second episode, I mean that's really hard to watch because they're actually showing it happen. Why not quit watching the show then? Last episode it was heavily implied and nothing was shown.

I'm genuinely asking and not being facetious, I'm not taking light of your situation and its implications.

[RuRoRul]

I am sorry for what happened to your girlfriend (I also have people  close to me that have suffered, though I don't want to include any more details) and that the scene had that effect for both of you. But I would have to echo faizoff - the show had a very similar scene in the very first episode, so if depiction of rape on screen was a problem then the show established itself from the outset as something that should be avoided. Like I said, I am aware that some people are opposed to rape and sexual violence being used in ficiton at all (although I disagree with that) and that their inclusion in Game Of Thrones is always going to be opposed by some. But the show is already known for including that stuff, and in this case the scene was executed well and avoided showing too much, it makes sense for the plot and characters involved (if you accept that Sansa is in Winterfell), and it is treated with the weight and significance it deserves.

[cramx3]

This show's handling of sexualized violence to women is deplorable. The producers  took a liking to an already problematic scene from the books and completely destroyed Sansa's story as presented in the books and put her in a place that she isn't because they liked a scene where a woman got violently raped so much. It's bad enough that Martin felt the urge to include it-rape as The Horrible Thing That Happens To Women in fiction is such a fucking overused trope as it is-but the producers broke the fucking story to get Sansa there for it to happen. And then shot the scene to make it be about Theon. Last year they shot a rape scene and didn't even know they had. Women are killed in violent, degrading, horrific ways that serve no purpose in the story because it seems that's the default mode for dealing with women in the show.

I understand you have a personal issue here and that's fine, but this paragraph makes little sense to me. It's a TV show that depicts a world where woman are not treated as equals to men.  I very much doubt the show runners changed Sansa's story for the purpose of including a rape scene.  I will say there is a lot of gratioutis nudity that does not advance the story, but for the most parts (besides Jaime) the rape scenes server a purpose for the story telling.  If it bothers you as much as it does, then just don't watch.

[hefdaddy42]

Jaq, out of respect for you and your girlfriend, I'm not going to respond point by point, but it sounds like you absolutely have a bias here, and this is just probably not the show or book series for you.

[Jaq]

...I'm done with this place.

Goodbye, you clueless, insensitive bastards. Ban me so I won't have the urge to come back here and be sick to my stomach again.

[Evermind]

I kind of agree with Jaq on some points. What happened to Jeyne Poole in the books was beyond horrible, but she served as a secondary character and as a catalyst for Theon to reawake his personality.  Theon was the center of the storyline in the book, along with the whole unstable political situation in the North.

The show placed Sansa in Jeyne's place. As the writers said themselves after S4, Sansa was on her way from pawn to player and her character was actually growing after a few seasons of constant misery. Then this rape scene comes in. I think some people can say that Sansa will start her "avenge your siblings and yourself" actions after that, and that will push her to become a player in GoT further. Somehow I really doubt that's how it works for people who have been raped, but I don't have a lot of experience in this field, so alright.

The second problem of this character switch is how there is now another lead character and protagonist (Sansa) in Winterfell along with Theon. I've seen some people over the web saying this scene was more about Theon and not Sansa. The fact this conclusion can be drawn is, in my opinion,  the problem. One of the main protagonists is being raped, and the scene is more about Theon. No way for me. The thithing is, this scene takes away from both Theon and Sansa storylines, taking attention away from the former, and basically ruining the latter.

See, I'm not saying this was unexpected at all, rather predictable actually. I was expecting this moment when the wedding had been announced, and yeah, here we are. Ned's death and Red Wedding were unexpected, yet predictable in retrospect. This rape is where it all was heading from third episode, so no big surprise here. Besides, why Sansa even had to leave the Vale? She was safe there. The Vale has an army unscattered by war. To avenge her siblings? Well, if Stannis has larger army and more chances to win, why don't go straight to Stannis? Or stay in the Vale and see the outcome of the battle. I'm not even saying that she is wanted by the Crown for helping to murder the king. Instead, she openly travels to Winterfell to marry the bastard son of a man who betrayed her brother stabbing him through the heart. "Avenge them" indeed.

Another point is I don't see the reason why Boltons needed Sansa at all. In the books they needed to arrange a marriage with a Stark because of their unsteady hold on the North, to be more legitimate in the eyes of other numerous Northern lords - they were invited to the wedding and all that. For these six episodes, I saw no Northern lords in WF at all. None on the wedding too. Ramsay seems perfectly alright with killing Lord Cerwyn for not paying taxes in episode two, so it doesn't seem like there are any problems on that front. Besides, if the wedding wasn't even witnessed by anyone, how Boltons can prove it even took place?

Eddard's death and RW were reasonable regarding the plot. This season storyline in WF for me is illogical. It seems like Sansa if there just to fill the quota of "awful things happening to the characters we love". It will probably move plot forward, but I expect it creating even more plotholes. If Sansa suddenly recovers and becomes a smart vengeful player or something like that, I won't find it very plausible. Maybe they will find some believable way to unfold the events further, but my faith in D&D regarding Northern arc and Sansa storyline is dwindling with each episode, and it's at its lowest point now.

I was holding my doubts in case there magically would be no rape, but now that there's no doubts, it feels good to post this rant here.

[Zydar]

...I'm done with this place.

Goodbye, you clueless, insensitive bastards. Ban me so I won't have the urge to come back here and be sick to my stomach again.

Wow.

[BlackInk]

I hope the writers never cower away from including these scenes just because some people react like this.

[BlackInk]

On another note, I don't see this as 'Sansa falling back into the same thing from before'. She been a 'captive' sure, and Joffrey talked about doing horrible stuff, but the last time she was actually a physical victim (apart from that mob) was when Joffrey had Meryn beat her in season 2. I mean, through most of season 2, and all through seasons 3 and 4, she has been avoiding danger. So for her to come up here and having it turn out to be even worse is not repetitive for me.

And personally, I don't think that scene was about Theon. For me it was all about Sansa, and Theon was just a bystander. A great acted bystander, but still that.

[hefdaddy42]

...I'm done with this place.

Goodbye, you clueless, insensitive bastards. Ban me so I won't have the urge to come back here and be sick to my stomach again.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  But I didn't see anyone being clueless or insensitive.  And I'm not going to ban you, because you haven't done anything ban-worthy.

[faizoff]

To change topics a bit, I haven't checked all the pages of this thread but has this site ever been brought up? viewers-guide.hbo.com Im sure it's been talked about already.

I can't believe I just discovered this site last week. It's an amazing interactive site for a quick exploration of all characters and information release so far and gets updated after every episode airs.

[sneakyblueberry]

I hope the writers never cower away from including these scenes just because some people react like this.

I think this weeks episode proves that they're not the 'cowering' type. 

[The King in Crimson]

I've grown to like Sansa's character over the last couple of seasons mainly because I don't know where her character is heading. Maybe it's because she's in LF's company and you never know what's going on with him.  I did not like the rape scene with Ramsay. Even though she is filling in for someone else's character I still do not think she needs to go through this nonsense again.

100% agreed.

What's the point of Sansa having an arc where she grows from the naive pawn of the horrible, powerful Lannisters to become an independent and, hopefully, intelligent and cunning player of the game? That's what the end of last season was hinting at. But, I don't know if it's the writing or the acting, but there's been very little sign of that this season. Sansa has remained the pawn of powerful, external forces, she has no agency and she certainly is not a player, she's just been moved from one pair of abusive hands to another. The rape, which is just as tasteless and grotesque as all of the other rape scenes in the show, is just a culmination of that. Perhaps the rape will serve some story purpose, but if that purpose is to primarily motivate OTHER characters to act on her behalf, then what is the point of her character? There are so many different ways the writers could've handled the Sansa in Winterfell story, but by keeping Sansa passive they've basically rewound her character back to when she was cowering beneath the tyranny of Joffrey, except Joffrey is much, much worse to her this time.

So no, I don't object to rape being a plot point as a rule, but I do object to this rape as a plot and thematic development. If this does lead to Sansa gaining more agency and working to have more control over her own situation and become a real player in the game, well, I think relying on rape as a motivating factor is lazy ass plotting. It's been done a thousand times, it's cliche, and Game of Thrones (and especially the books they are based on) do not typically rely on cliches to move the plot. So this is one area where, IMO, rape is just better off left off the table.

The Dorne scene was one truly lazy piece of plotting along with one of the worst fight scenes in the show's history. I will gladly take 'convenient' plotting in order to keep the story moving along at a brisk pace, but Jaime and Bronn are able to sneak into and right up to the princess of the Seven Kingdoms so easily? C'mon. And the Sand Snakes are barely able to hold their own against a has-been one-handed warrior and a sellsword? Well, yeah Bronn is badass, but it just makes the Sand Snakes look ineffective.

The rest I liked.

Theon's story is one of my favorite's from the book and Alfie Allen continues to kill it. I really like his Theon. It's sad that he gets such a good scene at the expense of another character (Sansa). Same with Arya. I really like Maisie as Arya and while her scenes this year have been kind of slow I still dig it. Cersei's stuff is okay but I'm not a fan with how they're ham-handedly kludging the plot along. The Jamie stuff sucks but his story has kinda sucked for the past two seasons so this is just more of the same. So far, I've been mostly liking this season and, up until now, it hasn't disappointed me as much as certain parts of Season 4 did, but this episode may have just tipped the scales a bit.

TLDR I pretty much 110% agree with Evermind

[Progmetty]

Jaq, out of respect for you and your girlfriend, I'm not going to respond point by point, but it sounds like you absolutely have a bias here, and this is just probably not the show or book series for you.

This.

I hope the writers never cower away from including these scenes just because some people react like this.

And that.

Then an addition of complete cluelessness on the backlash and the "rape" label, Sansa knew sex was gonna happen, it was her wedding night, she was already taking her dress off, she was going to have sex with Ramsay! She didn't even say "No" once through out the expected deflowering pain moans. The guy is an animal and rough handles everyone and everything he ever comes across, he's clearly been psychotic without exaggeration in using the word. I would be more understanding of the backlash if I saw how this was rape, I'd even understand it if they had actually shown him doing it!
Havign said that; Jaq I know I can never understand how you and your girlfriend feel about this, long as I haven't experienced it or a seen it on a loved one, I'm sorry for your pain brother.

[Progmetty]

On a different note I remember last time we heard of the Greyjoy's they were still in open rebellion and had occupied a few places in the North, when Ramsay sent Balon Greyjoy his son's penis in a box; Balon said he doesn't care and is not backing out, then nothing, we haven't heard from that arc since then, am I missing something?

[BlackInk]

That is actually something I've thought of as well. I know that stuff is addressed in the books, but looks like they're ignoring it completely in the show for the moment.

And I still really don't see how this all regresses Sansa's arc. Like Progmetty said, she knew this was coming, and was willing to go through with it. This is part of her game. It might have turned out worse than she expected, but Sansa still playing her game here.

[Evermind]

I guess the Ironborn plotline is currently on hold, like Gendry who's still rowing somewhere in the sea and Blackfish who's still urinating somewhere at the Twins.

[ariich]

Then an addition of complete cluelessness on the backlash and the "rape" label, Sansa knew sex was gonna happen, it was her wedding night, she was already taking her dress off, she was going to have sex with Ramsay! She didn't even say "No" once through out the expected deflowering pain moans. The guy is an animal and rough handles everyone and everything he ever comes across, he's clearly been psychotic without exaggeration in using the word. I would be more understanding of the backlash if I saw how this was rape

This is quite an important point that almost nobody has been making. I'm sure more people are thinking it, but possibly reluctant to point it out because of the angry backlash.

Of course the scene is very horrible, but in the world of Game of Thrones, and more importantly the real era in English history that it is based on, a marriage was not lawful until it was consummated, which was almost always on the wedding night. Sansa has become stronger and more cunning, and agrees to marry Ramsay hoping to gain some power once Stannis attacks. Therefore, by extension she also agrees to sleep with him. She puts up no resistance, either verbal or physical.

In today's society, such a circumstance would very likely constitute rape, and most people will of course view the episode through that lens. But in the world of GOT and the era it is based on, it almost certainly would not count as rape.

[cramx3]

To the people who think Sansa is going backwards in her arc, let's not forget that Cersei in season 2 told Sansa how to use her body to manipulate.  Is it possible thats exactly what she did to Ramsay in that scene (besides doing her duty as a bride in Westeros)?  Clearly she didn't seem like she wanted to, but she also didn't resist or even say no.

[RuRoRul]

Then an addition of complete cluelessness on the backlash and the "rape" label, Sansa knew sex was gonna happen, it was her wedding night, she was already taking her dress off, she was going to have sex with Ramsay! She didn't even say "No" once through out the expected deflowering pain moans. The guy is an animal and rough handles everyone and everything he ever comes across, he's clearly been psychotic without exaggeration in using the word. I would be more understanding of the backlash if I saw how this was rape

This is quite an important point that almost nobody has been making. I'm sure more people are thinking it, but possibly reluctant to point it out because of the angry backlash.

Of course the scene is very horrible, but in the world of Game of Thrones, and more importantly the real era in English history that it is based on, a marriage was not lawful until it was consummated, which was almost always on the wedding night. Sansa has become stronger and more cunning, and agrees to marry Ramsay hoping to gain some power once Stannis attacks. Therefore, by extension she also agrees to sleep with him. She puts up no resistance, either verbal or physical.

In today's society, such a circumstance would very likely constitute rape, and most people will of course view the episode through that lens. But in the world of GOT and the era it is based on, it almost certainly would not count as rape.

I think that in Westeros it wouldn't be treated as rape simply because they are married, but that's just because they have no concept of marital rape and generally allow a huge amount of sexual abuse in their world, so a Westerosi not considering something rape doesn't mean much. Also, you are probably right that it isn't really discussed since most people will know that any discussion of what constitutes rape will just inevitably derail and drag down the discussion.

Personally, my take woule be that even if consummating the marriage would be expected and not considered rape in Westeros, Ramsay made sure to make it play out as much like rape as possible. I think that Sansa knew she would be expected to have sex, and was probably willing to go through with it (if unhappily) when she walked into that room. Technically that could be argued as rape by modern standards, even though it's the norm for most Westeros marriages. But by bringing in Theon and turning it into a sick little spectacle, making it as uncomfortable as possible for Sansa and displaying his power over her, Ramsay made sure to turn an act that could have been in a more grey area (consensual by Westerosi standards but arguably rape by modern standards since Sansa is only consenting because of the pressure of the marriage) into something that more clearly had the impact of being rape.

Also a general point about the commokn criticism I have seen: "Sansa is meant to be going from pawn to player, victim to badass, etc."... Again, it is along the lines of "Do you remember what show you are watching?" Any ideas that this is a story where events and characters progress smoothly along the arcs you've got them pegged down for should have disappeared when Ned Stark lost his head. I mean if you look at a character like Daenerys, around season 3 the obvious thought of most fans was "Ok, she's got an army and dragons, time to head to Westeros and conquer!" Instead she decided to stay to free more slaves and rule, then it was "Of course, she's going to stay in Meereen a little while, gain some queen XP points and level up her dragons a bit, then it's off to Westeros as a beloved ruler with an even bigger army and bigger dragons!!" Instead, currently she has basically lost control of her dragons and is struggling to keep the peace in her city. And [MAJOR BOOK AND PROBABLY SHOW SPOILERS IN THE NEXT SENTENCE] by the end of the current book she is isolated, starving and sick in the wilderness (roughly her season 2 starting position) and may just be about to be captured by Dothraki (roughly her season 1 position). Things will likely turn out differently this time with Drogon at her side (just as things will likely turn out differently for Sansa this time). Daenerys's predicted arc may still play out similarly to how people guessed ages ago, but if so it certainly wasn't through clean progression without some apparent steps off course or even backwards. And that's just one example in the series. Hell, if the show had beaten the books to the punch with the Red Wedding, some people would probably be saying "But Robb Stark was supposed to bre a heroic badass and save his sisters, not die in some pointless massacre for shock value!"

[BlackInk]

Also, people all over the internet is all like 'Sansa is 100% a player of the game now'. That would be really really unrealistic. She has shown us that she is able to be that once, when she lied to some people. To expect that moment to be an instantanious total change of her character is not realistic, and writing it that way would have been really silly. She is still the same person as before, just trying to learn now.

[Evermind]

Well, the show kind of dumbed down the whole Red Wedding with Talisa replacing Jeyne Westerling (see guys, nothing good comes out of replacing characters named Jeyne). In the show, it felt to me like Robb just suddenly falls in love; in the books he was stricken with grief for his supposedly dead brothers, probably wasn't thinking straight, slept with Jeyne and had to either marry her or dishonor, since she was from a noble house after all (that was stupid from Robb, but not as stupid as the show version of marrying a foreigner because love). Also, Jeyne's parents were working for Lannisters, so there's that too.

In regards of Sansa being on the path from pawn to player, that's something the showwriters repeatedly said about S4 ending, also adding the growth will continue in S5. Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of growth this season. I attributed this for one of three following reasons:

- The writers were intentionally misleading and lying about the real course of Sansa arc

That would kind of defeat the purpose of Inside the Episode features, DVD documentaries and interviews with the writers.

- The growth is starting out slowly (like in the books) and will get in full force later this season

As I explained in the post above, the previous episode rape scene made this point almost totally implausible for me.

- The writers sometimes don't understand some points in characters' arcs, characters' motivations, and sometimes go with the wrong approach to some plots, scenes and characters.

I've been thinking about it, and I think that's the answer for me. In S4 they did that infamous Jaime-Cersei rape scene after spending the whole S3 with Jaime on his redemption arc, then they said the scene wasn't meant to be perceived as rape (everyone I know perceived this scene in exactly that way). That's alright, they're people and can make mistakes, I thought. What really got me though, is what they said about Arya refusing to give up Needle in S05E03 Inside the Episode, implying she doesn't throw it away because it symbolizes revenge for her. That passage from AFFC in this scene (readers will hopefully know which one) was probably my favourite moment in the book, so I was a bit pissed off.

(Side note: I should stop watching those Inside the Episode videos, really.)

Sorry for all the negativity guys, I guess I'll stop my rant here and will just wait for the next episode.

[Cyclopssss]

Well, I'm late to the party as usual. Give all the outrage on the net I sat down last night to watch the episode with a mindset of 'alright, here comes the horror'. Yes, it was brutal, but given the series history of 'gross out scenes', I thought it was actually pretty decently (as if that's possible with a rape-scene) done. It's all suggestion, all actor's faces closeups. No actual phycical action going on at all. Let's be honest folks, we've seen LOTS worse in this show.

Also, for the rest of the episode, I really agree on the lame-less of the sandsnake/Jamie/whatsisname fight. I mean come on, these were the fierce sandsnakes we've heard so much about? Reminded me of the scene in Indiana Jones when the guy comes up to Jones with all the Karate-moves and Indiana just pulls out a gun and shoots the guy.

Arya scenes were great though. I think we'll see a big pick up on the pace in the next episodes. 

[gmillerdrake]

I must have viewed it differently I guess. As it's been mentioned....I thought that Sansa knew full well that she was going to have sex after that wedding and that despite it being 'rough' or not "romantic"....the painful moans from her was attributed to the fact that she'd never had sex? I might be one of the few people who believe that the scene was indeed about Theon. After Ramsay rips Sansas dress the rest of the way off The focus of the remainder of the scene was entirely on him and his reaction.

As far as Sansa 'not being a player' now  or the lack of her development, I thought the Bath scene showed she has some grit....albeit she was fending off the daughter of a kennel keeper, but still....she seems confident now that she's home.

I've said it a few times already this season but it still rings true....there just seems to be something off and missing from this season that was there in the previous seasons? This entire Dorne escapade is so below the standard that has been set by the show it really is a wonder how they are actually showing these scenes. It's been pretty bad....

[faizoff]

Kinda funny how universal the reaction is to the Dorne fight. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to reading comments online everywhere say how lame it was and completely unlike GOT. It really was the first time while watching the show I felt like I was taken out of the show and had me wondering why it looked so bad.

[Prog Snob]

Could the difference of this season be attributed to the fact that GRRM did not write any episodes for this season?

[Progmetty]

Of course the scene is very horrible, but in the world of Game of Thrones, and more importantly the real era in English history that it is based on, a marriage was not lawful until it was consummated, which was almost always on the wedding night. Sansa has become stronger and more cunning, and agrees to marry Ramsay hoping to gain some power once Stannis attacks. Therefore, by extension she also agrees to sleep with him. She puts up no resistance, either verbal or physical.

In today's society, such a circumstance would very likely constitute rape, and most people will of course view the episode through that lens. But in the world of GOT and the era it is based on, it almost certainly would not count as rape.

I think a lot of people in current Western nations, specifically America and Western Europe, tend to ignore/forget how their ancestors and societies worked in medieval times, they assume the standards for decency has always been the same to them, like history started counting sometime in the mid 19th century. It's reversed with us Arabs where a lot of us tend to think all the history that mattered happened before that time and everything that came after is just corrupting the good old standards and definitions and that makes us seem so reversed from Westerners. I know that might have been a little off topic but it was just a thought that crossed my mind when you correctly referred to these social attributes mirroring a "real era in English history" the show is based on as opposed to most other reviewers referring to these attributes as things of the fictional world of Westeros.

Could the difference of this season be attributed to the fact that GRRM did not write any episodes for this season?

Maybe, I read everyone's perspective on what seems different about this season and personally the only thing I could personally think of is how there's more POV's covered per episode than any previous season, so things feel a bit more rushed for lack of a better term.

Kinda funny how universal the reaction is to the Dorne fight. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to reading comments online everywhere say how lame it was and completely unlike GOT. It really was the first time while watching the show I felt like I was taken out of the show and had me wondering why it looked so bad.

To me it felt like less-than-expected camera work, big contrast to the previous episode outstanding directional talent. I'd be surprised if the same guy directed both episodes.

[BlackInk]

I don't know if GRRM not directing had something to do with it, but I know that the showrunners said for years that "season 5 gives me nightmares". They knew that this season would be a tough one to piece together years back. That said, I think they've done really great job with it so far. The short Dorne-stuff in the various episodes is the only exception.

[cramx3]

I don't know if GRRM not directing had something to do with it, but I know that the showrunners said for years that "season 5 gives me nightmares". They knew that this season would be a tough one to piece together years back. That said, I think they've done really great job with it so far. The short Dorne-stuff in the various episodes is the only exception.

Agreed, I also want to see how the rest of this season plays out.  I think there is going to be a lot of really awesome stuff coming and that the slow building of this season's storylines will pay off in some way, and some more ways in the next season I would think.

[hefdaddy42]

Could the difference of this season be attributed to the fact that GRRM did not write any episodes for this season?

Not this per se, but I think rather that the problem is that since they have deviated so much from the novels, their own storytelling is all that is left.  They are flying without a net.