Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[hefdaddy42]

Normally going with the OBVIOUS choice is seen as lazy writing.

maybe.....on a more straight forward story sure. But there was 7 seasons of foundation set in place for Jon to confront and kill TNK

I get that that is the the expectation that you had.  But that doesn't mean that it was ever the actual plan, or that that was what they were actually laying foundation for. 

If their plan all along was to have Jon kill the Night King, and then changed it, I could see being upset about it.  But I haven't seen anything to say that's the case.

[gmillerdrake]

Normally going with the OBVIOUS choice is seen as lazy writing.

maybe.....on a more straight forward story sure. But there was 7 seasons of foundation set in place for Jon to confront and kill TNK

I get that that is the the expectation that you had.  But that doesn't mean that it was ever the actual plan, or that that was what they were actually laying foundation for. 

If their plan all along was to have Jon kill the Night King, and then changed it, I could see being upset about it.  But I haven't seen anything to say that's the case.

I.....like everyone else......would love to know what the writer and creator of all of this actually thinks and intended. I wonder if GRRM saw the fallout of the shows final season and criticism of things like this and what not and changed his mind and altered his plan, or agreed with how it all played out?

[Grappler]

Normally going with the OBVIOUS choice is seen as lazy writing.

maybe.....on a more straight forward story sure. But there was 7 seasons of foundation set in place for Jon to confront and kill TNK

I get that that is the the expectation that you had.  But that doesn't mean that it was ever the actual plan, or that that was what they were actually laying foundation for. 

If their plan all along was to have Jon kill the Night King, and then changed it, I could see being upset about it.  But I haven't seen anything to say that's the case.

I.....like everyone else......would love to know what the writer and creator of all of this actually thinks and intended. I wonder if GRRM saw the fallout of the shows final season and criticism of things like this and what not and changed his mind and altered his plan, or agreed with how it all played out?

Around the time that the show ended, GRRM wrote that it would be similar and different at the same time.  I know that he gave the big points/endings to the characters to the show, and took that to mean that the characters would end up in a similar place, but would take a different path to get there.

So Dany still goes Mad Queen, Bran still becomes king, etc.  But the books are different because of the different characters (Stannis is still alive in the books and could play a part in something).

The show deliberately started reducing the number of characters and combining storylines in the later seasons.  I'm interested to see how the books are different, but I won't say that I think they'll be "better."  There are whole plotlines in the books that I think are completely unnecessary and I think the show did a pretty good job condensing the books into something that made for great tv. 

[hefdaddy42]

Normally going with the OBVIOUS choice is seen as lazy writing.

maybe.....on a more straight forward story sure. But there was 7 seasons of foundation set in place for Jon to confront and kill TNK

I get that that is the the expectation that you had.  But that doesn't mean that it was ever the actual plan, or that that was what they were actually laying foundation for. 

If their plan all along was to have Jon kill the Night King, and then changed it, I could see being upset about it.  But I haven't seen anything to say that's the case.

I.....like everyone else......would love to know what the writer and creator of all of this actually thinks and intended. I wonder if GRRM saw the fallout of the shows final season and criticism of things like this and what not and changed his mind and altered his plan, or agreed with how it all played out?

I wouldn't be surprised in the least.

[gmillerdrake]

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

It just makes me sad how such a great run of seasons ended in such a disappointment and kinda ruined the overall vibe of the show. Those first seasons will always be one of the best tv-moments ever, it's just sad it ended the way it did.

[ReaperKK]

It just makes me sad how such a great run of seasons ended in such a disappointment and kinda ruined the overall vibe of the show. Those first seasons will always be one of the best tv-moments ever, it's just sad it ended the way it did.

I completely agree. I did a rewatch last year and the quality of the show lasted for so long. I also think those after episode interviews they did was a bad idea, "Daenerys simply forgot about the Greyjoy's army"

[MirrorMask]

The biggest testament to the writers' failure is how quickly Game of Thrones disappeared from pop culture.

It was a worldwide phenomenon. "Everyone" was watching it. There was excitement, friends and coworkers were watching it as well, then the finale came, it bombed, and everybody just..... forgot about it (like Dany with the Greyjoy ships).

Breaking Bad was nowhere near the mass phenomenon Game of Thrones was, and people are still talking about it 10 years after the finale. Harry Potter still has worldwide fans. Lord of the Rings, well, a Tolkien fan is a fan for life, people will always love the books even if the new show is kinda meh. But Game of Thrones? disappeared overnight, the only time people remember it existed, is when they talk about how the finale sucked.

OF COURSE these are not absoliutes. Of course there are people still into it, people still discussing it, doing some cosplays etc etc.... but look at the general perception in the pop culture - it just went away, melted like the army of the White Walkers after a teenager girl jumped out of literally nowhere to one-up the elemental villain of the entire show arc.

Also, RIP the mental sanity of all those girls named Khaleesi. Good luck growing up and finding out you were named after the honorary title of a character that commited genocide from a show whose ending was hated by 99% of the fans. And congratulations also to the parents who gave the name Khaleesi in the first place, which is basically like wanting to pay homage to Jorge Bergoglio, and calling your son Pope.

[nick_z]

And congratulations also to the parents who gave the name Khaleesi in the first place, which is basically like wanting to pay homage to Jorge Bergoglio, and calling your son Pope.

  So true!

[Stadler]

The biggest testament to the writers' failure is how quickly Game of Thrones disappeared from pop culture.

This is brilliant.  I love this assessment.

[abydos]

The biggest testament to the writers' failure is how quickly Game of Thrones disappeared from pop culture.

This is brilliant.  I love this assessment.

Someone should write a documentary about all the families that named their newborn girls Daenerys. How they feel about the show? How many of them changed the names of the baby before it even was able to realize that it was its name

[ErHaO]

I have no problem with where the characters ended up being and what they ended up doing. It is just that the excecution was shit and they almost all acted like there was some binary switch in their heads flipping between modes of personality/intelligence.

[Lonk]

I didn't watch GoT when it originally aired. I finally gave in and watched all seasons recently. I was prepared to hate season 8 but I guess because I had such low expectations, I didn't think it was as bad as I expected.

Was it a huge drop in quality? yes! But I don't think it was the Trainwreck it was made out to be.

[Grappler]

Was it a huge drop in quality? yes! But I don't think it was the Trainwreck it was made out to be.

That's exactly how I felt.  I think a lot of the fan reaction was because it just didn't end the way that each fan wanted it to end.  So many people had so many theories about characters and prophecies (or the lack of them in the show).  I got the sense that despite various prophecies, GRRM will just have Jon Snow say "I don't want the throne," just like in the show.  I'm almost certain he's afraid to finish the books because of such a negative reaction to the way the show ended, and his ending will be similar in some ways.

[MirrorMask]

That's exactly how I felt.  I think a lot of the fan reaction was because it just didn't end the way that each fan wanted it to end. 

Go at the end for a TL;DR.

I can only speak for myself, but what I didn't like is the very noticeable change in the approach once the source material ran out. It went from a non predictable show, that tried to have some realistic turns of events, into a blockbuster with all the cliches of big action scenes, and illogical turns of the plot just to get to the "whoah" moment (yeah, I'm looking at you, Dany crossing a continent riding on a dragon to save Jon beyond the wall at the last possible second).

Game of Thrones was a show / story were the famous expectations were subverted, but not for the sake of it as the writers grossly misinterpeted - it was more a matter of the characters facing consequences without having a plot armor that shields the protagonists of most fantasy stories and shows.

The fact that Ned Stark was too honorable and naive for his own good had consequences.
Years of neglect and mistreating from Tywin to Tyrion had consequences.
Oberyn being obsessed with his need for revenge had consequences.

It's one of the taglines of the show: "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die". People not winning died. In the Princess Bride, Indigo Montoya had a catchphrase for his need for revenge, and he got it brilliantly. Oberyn didn't because more often than not, if you're too obsessed with something you're gonna screw it up sooner or later.

Situations like these is what set Game of Thrones apart, and it was turned into a generic blockbuster with the complexity of the plot thrown away for big cinematic scenes.

Also, I'm still not over how the White Walkers menace was handled. It was said from Lord Commander Mormont to Jon Snow already in season one: "When the White Walkers arrive, do you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne?". That was basically the entire premise of the show - rich and egoistical lords battle for the throne when the real menace is an elemental one that comes from beyond the Wall.

There should have been the moment when the entirety of Westeros realized that the real enemy were the White Walkers. The way I like to say it, I probably posted it already here - you can't promise World War II for eight years and then get Hitler shanked by a little girl as soon as he enters Poland.

"But how else would you have handled it?"... well, I don't know, but in broad strokes, I would have had the White Walkers take over Westeros. I'm fine with their eventual defeat, but only after they took over all of Westeros and each and every single one of the characters realized "oh shit, we forgot about why the Wall was built in the first place, we were shortsighted and we should have united against a common enemy rather than killing each other for that ugly chair".

TL;DR - I don't like the last seasons because the complexity, nuances and relative realism of the story were all thrown out in order to achieve blockbuster moments and arriving at selected plot points without putting in the effort to make those plots belieavable and coherent. I'm fine with Dany going crazy. I'm NOT fine with her doing a napalm carpet bombing of a town that just surrended when two episodes ago she was one of the (flawed) protagonists.

I don't want a Disney happy ending. I want proper plot development, like in seasons 1-4, that justifies WHY we don't get a Disney happy ending.

[Lonk]

TL;DR - I don't like the last seasons because the complexity, nuances and relative realism of the story were all thrown out in order to achieve blockbuster moments and arriving at selected plot points without putting in the effort to make those plots belieavable and coherent. I'm fine with Dany going crazy. I'm NOT fine with her doing a napalm carpet bombing of a town that just surrended when two episodes ago she was one of the (flawed) protagonists.

I don't want a Disney happy ending. I want proper plot development, like in seasons 1-4, that justifies WHY we don't get a Disney happy ending.

I don't disagree with any of that, you are 100% correct. And I think it was Stadler who told me that it's noticeable when the show stopped following the books, and I also agree with that. But as someone who did not have years of anticipation and saw all 8 seasons in the span of a month or so, those things diminished the quality of the show, but did not killed the show for me.

One of the things that no one talks about that bothered me (A LOT) is how around season 6, travel time became immediate. The first 5 seasons you had a character saying "Hey, I gotta go over there", and it would be 3-4 episodes before they even made it to their destination. Look at Varys. At the end of season 6, he went from Meereen or Dorne in no time, only to be shown on the ship to Dragonstone a few minutes later. Jon saying "Hey, I'm going to see the Mother of Dragons", and getting there just a few minutes later. Yes, travelling on a dragon beyond the wall as also one of those moments.

The whole White Walker thing was the biggest disappointment for me though, and I think your analogy is perfect. I did not have an issue with them being defeated by Arya. My issue was that you spent 7 seasons building them up, and the conflict lasted no time. Also, I don't like what they did with my guy Tyrion. I get that the dude went through a lot but season 7 and 8 he was just a completely different character. And Bran? What was all that about? There was a video I saw that offers a rewrite version of the last couple episodes and I thought that would've been much better. But again, the drop in quality didn't kill the show for me.

[gmillerdrake]

That's exactly how I felt.  I think a lot of the fan reaction was because it just didn't end the way that each fan wanted it to end. 

Go at the end for a TL;DR.

I can only speak for myself, but what I didn't like is the very noticeable change in the approach once the source material ran out. It went from a non predictable show, that tried to have some realistic turns of events, into a blockbuster with all the cliches of big action scenes, and illogical turns of the plot just to get to the "whoah" moment (yeah, I'm looking at you, Dany crossing a continent riding on a dragon to save Jon beyond the wall at the last possible second).

Game of Thrones was a show / story were the famous expectations were subverted, but not for the sake of it as the writers grossly misinterpeted - it was more a matter of the characters facing consequences without having a plot armor that shields the protagonists of most fantasy stories and shows.

The fact that Ned Stark was too honorable and naive for his own good had consequences.
Years of neglect and mistreating from Tywin to Tyrion had consequences.
Oberyn being obsessed with his need for revenge had consequences.

It's one of the taglines of the show: "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die". People not winning died. In the Princess Bride, Indigo Montoya had a catchphrase for his need for revenge, and he got it brilliantly. Oberyn didn't because more often than not, if you're too obsessed with something you're gonna screw it up sooner or later.

Situations like these is what set Game of Thrones apart, and it was turned into a generic blockbuster with the complexity of the plot thrown away for big cinematic scenes.

Also, I'm still not over how the White Walkers menace was handled. It was said from Lord Commander Mormont to Jon Snow already in season one: "When the White Walkers arrive, do you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne?". That was basically the entire premise of the show - rich and egoistical lords battle for the throne when the real menace is an elemental one that comes from beyond the Wall.

There should have been the moment when the entirety of Westeros realized that the real enemy were the White Walkers. The way I like to say it, I probably posted it already here - you can't promise World War II for eight years and then get Hitler shanked by a little girl as soon as he enters Poland.

"But how else would you have handled it?"... well, I don't know, but in broad strokes, I would have had the White Walkers take over Westeros. I'm fine with their eventual defeat, but only after they took over all of Westeros and each and every single one of the characters realized "oh shit, we forgot about why the Wall was built in the first place, we were shortsighted and we should have united against a common enemy rather than killing each other for that ugly chair".

TL;DR - I don't like the last seasons because the complexity, nuances and relative realism of the story were all thrown out in order to achieve blockbuster moments and arriving at selected plot points without putting in the effort to make those plots belieavable and coherent. I'm fine with Dany going crazy. I'm NOT fine with her doing a napalm carpet bombing of a town that just surrended when two episodes ago she was one of the (flawed) protagonists.

I don't want a Disney happy ending. I want proper plot development, like in seasons 1-4, that justifies WHY we don't get a Disney happy ending.

MirrorMask for the WIN! Great post. And totally agree and think it's pretty evident that once the source material dried up this show was not the same. Botching the Jon Snow character was a black eye as well.....Arya killing the Night King was comical yet on par for what was going down in our culture at the time. The fact that no 'big name' character died in the battle of Winterfell was a joke....I know Jorah died but I'm talking Sam, Jaimie, Brieanne....Arya.....Grey Worm...etc etc. Over half of them should have perished but they were protected by lazy plot armor. Anyway....

I'll rewatch the series again.....probably a few more times in the years to come.....because even with it's decline in writing it is a good series. But it was on track to be probably the best ever made but it fizzled out due to all the reasons being stated.

[Stadler]

I think for me it was more stark - see what I did there? - because I was reading the books at the same time as watching the show.   So for me, the source material end was like a big shining red light.  It really DID change from something meticulous and deliberate into something that was every summer Michael Bay blockbuster.   No thanks.  I could live with the choices in the end - thought wasn't thrilled with Bran, or how Danerys simply seemed to lose her shit in the space of an episode or two - but the way it was executed just seemed like they were over it and were going through the motions to be done with it.  I honestly think they got too big for their britches (remember, they were being tempted with Star Wars at that time too) that they took their eye off the ball.

[gmillerdrake]

Dany's end game was not an issue with me because that's where she was always headed. It was the 'rushed' feel of it all. The earlier seasons cultivated and manicured the character development. With the 'hard line' end of GOT being established....there were a lot of corners cut with the character development. The shows decisions per say weren't all that bad....but it needed another 12-16 episodes at minimum to get them there in a way where it felt right.

It was rushed on all accounts and it showed and suffered for it.

[Stadler]

Dany's end game was not an issue with me because that's where she was always headed. It was the 'rushed' feel of it all. The earlier seasons cultivated and manicured the character development. With the 'hard line' end of GOT being established....there were a lot of corners cut with the character development. The shows decisions per say weren't all that bad....but it needed another 12-16 episodes at minimum to get them there in a way where it felt right.

It was rushed on all accounts and it showed and suffered for it.

Maybe that's it; that that's where Dany was headed, but it just seemed she went from this measured, patient determined woman with her eye firmly on the prize... to banshee in the space of an episode and a half.  It felt... inauthentic, whereas the first three seasons were almost TOO authentic in many ways.

[Grappler]

Dany's end game was not an issue with me because that's where she was always headed. It was the 'rushed' feel of it all. The earlier seasons cultivated and manicured the character development. With the 'hard line' end of GOT being established....there were a lot of corners cut with the character development. The shows decisions per say weren't all that bad....but it needed another 12-16 episodes at minimum to get them there in a way where it felt right.

It was rushed on all accounts and it showed and suffered for it.

Maybe that's it; that that's where Dany was headed, but it just seemed she went from this measured, patient determined woman with her eye firmly on the prize... to banshee in the space of an episode and a half.  It felt... inauthentic, whereas the first three seasons were almost TOO authentic in many ways.

When I re-watched the series, starting in Season 1, I noticed that she was always counseled to show enemies mercy.  She never did - she always executed them.  Every counselor she had said the same, but she never listened to them.  When you watch the show in real time, from year to year, it feels very rushed at the end, but she was definitely headed to a Mad Queen moment, since that's who she was all along. 

I have my likes and dislikes, and agree that the final 2 seasons should have been longer, but I accepted it for what it was.  I can truly see GRRM not finishing the books because of the fan reactions to the final season.  Better to have that anger aimed at the tv show than himself, especially if his ending would be similar to the show in a number of ways.

[abydos]

Martin is a troll so I wouldn't be surprised if he's finished the series and it's edited and ready to go, but he's given the instructions to his family/publishers to only release it after he's dead

[MirrorMask]

I could live with the choices in the end - thought wasn't thrilled with Bran, or how Danerys simply seemed to lose her shit in the space of an episode or two - but the way it was executed just seemed like they were over it and were going through the motions to be done with it.  I honestly think they got too big for their britches (remember, they were being tempted with Star Wars at that time too) that they took their eye off the ball.

That's essentially how it went.

Martin is a troll so I wouldn't be surprised if he's finished the series and it's edited and ready to go, but he's given the instructions to his family/publishers to only release it after he's dead

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely the current one. He's either lost the appetite for it, or can't unravel anymore all the tangled mess he got himself into with the multiple interconnecting storylines.

[KevShmev]

When I re-watched the series, starting in Season 1, I noticed that she was always counseled to show enemies mercy.  She never did - she always executed them.  Every counselor she had said the same, but she never listened to them.  When you watch the show in real time, from year to year, it feels very rushed at the end, but she was definitely headed to a Mad Queen moment, since that's who she was all along. 

I think the ending in general was rushed, but I don't think Daenerys' turn was.  Remember that she had just lost her two best friends to violent deaths (Jorah and Missandei), had lost all faith in her Hand (Tyrion), had to execute a trusted adviser for (what she viewed as) being disloyal (Varys), and had seen her lover (Jon Snow) pull away from her, so her snapping, given her aggressive tendencies she had always shown, was not unrealistic.  I have issues with the way certain things were handled in the last season, but I don't think it was the total disaster that many do.

[Grappler]

When I re-watched the series, starting in Season 1, I noticed that she was always counseled to show enemies mercy.  She never did - she always executed them.  Every counselor she had said the same, but she never listened to them.  When you watch the show in real time, from year to year, it feels very rushed at the end, but she was definitely headed to a Mad Queen moment, since that's who she was all along. 

I think the ending in general was rushed, but I don't think Daenerys' turn was.  Remember that she had just lost her two best friends to violent deaths (Jorah and Missandei), had lost all faith in her Hand (Tyrion), had to execute a trusted adviser for (what she viewed as) being disloyal (Varys), and had seen her lover (Jon Snow) pull away from her, so her snapping, given her aggressive tendencies she had always shown, was not unrealistic.  I have issues with the way certain things were handled in the last season, but I don't think it was the total disaster that many do.

That's how I feel.  When I rewatched the series 2 years ago, I noticed how every single advisor that she had, going back to season 1, cautioned her to be merciful to enemies.  That a good ruler knows when to execute someone and when not to (i.e., Cersei allowing Ned Stark to take the black and join the Night's Watch). 

She always declined that and chose to slaughter her enemies.  So it wasn't a rushed turn to evil as far as I'm concerned, but when you watched the series in real time, with 1-2 years between seasons, that fact was lost on many viewers.

[gmillerdrake]

When I re-watched the series, starting in Season 1, I noticed that she was always counseled to show enemies mercy.  She never did - she always executed them.  Every counselor she had said the same, but she never listened to them.  When you watch the show in real time, from year to year, it feels very rushed at the end, but she was definitely headed to a Mad Queen moment, since that's who she was all along. 

I think the ending in general was rushed, but I don't think Daenerys' turn was.  Remember that she had just lost her two best friends to violent deaths (Jorah and Missandei), had lost all faith in her Hand (Tyrion), had to execute a trusted adviser for (what she viewed as) being disloyal (Varys), and had seen her lover (Jon Snow) pull away from her, so her snapping, given her aggressive tendencies she had always shown, was not unrealistic.  I have issues with the way certain things were handled in the last season, but I don't think it was the total disaster that many do.

I think it'd have been better for her character getting there if there were more than the handful of episodes we got taking her to that extreme end. Again, she was always heading there....the writing was on the wall for most of the series....but the condensed last couple seasons stole the opportunity for the actors involved and the story to get her there in a manner that didn't feel rushed.

[ZirconBlue]

Imagine Dany's turn to madness as a journey from New York to Los Angeles.  They laid enough roadwork to get to St. Louis, and just teleported the rest of the way.

[gmillerdrake]

Imagine Dany's turn to madness as a journey from New York to Los Angeles.  They laid enough roadwork to get to St. Louis, and just teleported the rest of the way.

I don't blame them....most people want to teleport out of St. Louis as quick as possible. 

[hefdaddy42]

Imagine Dany's turn to madness as a journey from New York to Los Angeles.  They laid enough roadwork to get to St. Louis, and just teleported the rest of the way.

I don't blame them....most people want to teleport out of St. Louis as quick as possible. 

I visited St. Louis once.  I didn't stay very long.

[KevShmev]

Imagine Dany's turn to madness as a journey from New York to Los Angeles.  They laid enough roadwork to get to St. Louis, and just teleported the rest of the way.

I don't blame them....most people want to teleport out of St. Louis as quick as possible. 

I visited St. Louis once.  I didn't stay very long.

Your mistake was coming here in the first place.

[ErHaO]

I don't think the book series will be finished by GRR Martin. He is 75 years old now, the odds are decreasing by the year. I can, however, see the series eventually be continued by a different author using unfinished manuscripts and notes. But that depends on how Martin leaves his legacy.

I didn't watch GoT when it originally aired. I finally gave in and watched all seasons recently. I was prepared to hate season 8 but I guess because I had such low expectations, I didn't think it was as bad as I expected.

Was it a huge drop in quality? yes! But I don't think it was the Trainwreck it was made out to be.

Expectations always influence somebodies enjoyment. For example, I greatly enjoyed my The Hobbit trilogy rewatch recently (extended editions for the first time), but was very disappointed with the third part in the cinema.

I don't think I will ever like season 8 though, because the problems at it's core for me are character development and characters interactions (vs videogame action, ugly cgi, and some not needed sidestuff in The Hobbit). But less "hate" is probably in the cards.

And as I said, where (most) characters ended up being is not the problem for me, so that is at least something.

[MirrorMask]

Yeah, the problem was the journey, not the destination.

I know I already made a long post about it, but another excellent example came into my mind: the Red Wedding and the events leading up to it.

If you go back, you see all the mistakes Robb Stark made. Marrying another girl, betraying Walder Frey, being unnecessarily strict with the Karstarsk guy he got beheaded, and so on. He made mistakes, and eventually paid the ultimate price for it. So it's not a matter of "OMG this show is so edgy, they kill main characters!!!", it was a matter of, as I said, characters facing consequences for their actions rather than having plot armor.

It's not that Robb was doing great, being a perfect strategist, and then got betrayed by a trusted friend for no reason at all. His mistakes were all there to see. Walder Frey's nature was clearly stated.

There's a clear and logical development, over the course of two seasons, that brought Robb's downfall. Dany's turn to madness happened during two episodes and they needed a "previously on" feature to selectively highlight some of her troublesome moments to justify why she methodically carpet bombs with dragon napalm each and every single alley of the city she just conquered.

(And again, how she conquered it? using single handedly a dragon after the previous episode higlighted how the city was now ready to fight dragons)

[BlackInk]

I don't think the book series will be finished by GRR Martin. He is 75 years old now, the odds are decreasing by the year. I can, however, see the series eventually be continued by a different author using unfinished manuscripts and notes. But that depends on how Martin leaves his legacy.

I still hold out hope that we'll at least get Winds of Winter. But hopes for Dream of Spring is dwindling, which of course makes one question the point of continuing even if we get WoW. Also, I would not put much hope in someone else finishing the series Wheel of Time-style. Martin has been very clear on how he feels about another author touching his world and story, so I don't think that will ever happen.