*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[Wim Kruithof]

Really every album post-ADTOE kinda lacks character. There are exceptions. But there aren't many.

I'm really curious to find out what you mean with this, 'lacks character'. I think they switched gears since Mangini came in and differ the style a little, but then again, didn't they also do this back in the days, with Falling into Infinity or Octavarium for example? Every single album earns its place in the wide spectrum Dream Theater expands and they're all different from one another. So I can't quite follow wht you mean.

[Trav]

Really every album post-ADTOE kinda lacks character. There are exceptions. But there aren't many.

I'm really curious to find out what you mean with this, 'lacks character'. I think they switched gears since Mangini came in and differ the style a little, but then again, didn't they also do this back in the days, with Falling into Infinity or Octavarium for example? Every single album earns its place in the wide spectrum Dream Theater expands and they're all different from one another. So I can't quite follow wht you mean.

Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.

Anyways, so every album since the self-titled pretty much sounds like they all could have been written in the same session. Sure there's some variation with each album, but not that much. Even though The Astonishing on the surface seems like it's way out of left field, it isn't really. It's basically the same sound if you look at more standalone tracks, i.e. The Gift of Music, A Life Left Behind, Moment of Betrayal and Our New World. Like I said, they sound like they could have been written at the same time as The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil or Along For the Ride. That's just how it sounds to my ears, it may not sound like that to you and that's cool.

To me they sort of found one streamlined kind of sound and they've stuck to it. They're staying in their lane. And that's fine. It makes for enjoyable albums, but nothing that blows me away. I don't get the same feeling listening to a new album for the first time as I did the first time I heard Learning to Live, Voices, Trial of Tears, Home, Blind Faith or Octavarium.

And one more thing, since I'm going long. I like Mangini but his drumming is just kind of sterile. His dynamics don't really differ much from heavy songs to lighter songs. He just goes from busy to less busy. I am looking forward to hearing his solo album though. Seems really interesting.

[Wim Kruithof]

Thanks for your explanation Trav86, I do follow what you mean now, especially with A Dramatic Turn / Self-titled and then the combination Distance Over Time / A View combination. Those four could have been two double-discs.

Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.

I consider it a huge approvement that they now build albums in the studio with the whole band (except LaBrie perhaps). Back in the days it was mostly Portnoy and Petrucci (and Moore - really back in the days). Now they all have an equal share in (to?) the outcome.

And A View From the Top of the World really has an Awake-feeling, mostly due to Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. I love the album, right from the first listen and keeps on spinning it.

Nevertheless, I can understand what you're saying, I just really love that sound, style these days and can't wait till DT16.

[Trav]

Thanks for your explanation Trav86, I do follow what you mean now, especially with A Dramatic Turn / Self-titled and then the combination Distance Over Time / A View combination. Those four could have been two double-discs.

Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.

I consider it a huge approvement that they now build albums in the studio with the whole band (except LaBrie perhaps). Back in the days it was mostly Portnoy and Petrucci (and Moore - really back in the days). Now they all have an equal share in (to?) the outcome.

And A View From the Top of the World really has an Awake-feeling, mostly due to Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. I love the album, right from the first listen and keeps on spinning it.

Nevertheless, I can understand what you're saying, I just really love that sound, style these days and can't wait till DT16.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if I did a very good job of explaining what I meant, I typically don't.

I'm not sure where you got the idea about the writing process. Everything I've seen or heard is that the whole band (minus LaBrie sometimes) writes all the music together. Portnoy and Petrucci were the producers and had the final say, but Jordan and JM have been right there in the creative process.

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

[gzarruk]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think the Mangini albums fall into three categories: "Cover All the Bases" (ADTOE, AVFTTOTW), "Keep It Simple" (DT13, DOT), and "Swing for the Fences" (TA). I'd love to see another big swing of sorts for the next album, personally.

[Trav]

I think the Mangini albums fall into three categories: "Cover All the Bases" (ADTOE, AVFTTOTW), "Keep It Simple" (DT13, DOT), and "Swing for the Fences" (TA). I'd love to see another big swing of sorts for the next album, personally.

This is a good explanation as well.

[Setlist Scotty]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

[Trav]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

And I think that may be what I'm missing now. It took a few albums for me to be sure, but now I am. He must have been the main one pushing do things differently and not repeat themselves too much.  It's caused things to get a little "samey" in the last decade.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

[Setlist Scotty]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.

You can't disregard the "Inspiration Corner" as well. MP would present some Cd's that he felt the band could be inspired by when writing and jamming. This is what created Never Enough/Prophets of War (Muse), I Walk Beside You (U2), The Great Debate (Tool), and other various songs that were inspired by other artist works.

[Ben_Jamin]

But I still love this video of the making of Six Degrees, especially the first 4 minutes when JP comes in with his newly shaven head, and then he goes and talks about growing his beard. 

https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=l936TGJsuo3p4Aot

Here's the timestamp with the 6DOIT inspiration corner:
https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=QQX8zDbpowe7eaFW

[Setlist Scotty]

But I still love this video of the making of Six Degrees, especially the first 4 minutes when JP comes in with his newly shaven head, and then he goes and talks about growing his beard. 

https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=l936TGJsuo3p4Aot

Here's the timestamp with the 6DOIT inspiration corner:
https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=QQX8zDbpowe7eaFW

Oh I remember those videos very well from when they were first released. I actually had fun teasing JP at one of the last shows I went to, citing that video where he said that if he grew his beard out, that it would sound like ZZ Top. So I asked him why DT doesn't sound like ZZ Top!   

But yeah, I know all about inspiration corner. And of course, those were used in references in many different ways; some of it was songwriting, but some of it was also to get a similar vibe as well as other ideas about mix and production. So my whole point of MP (and the band) being fine with something, whether catchy or not, still stands. I'm sure the guys would all in general prefer catchy things since that would appeal to more people, but they weren't going to go way out of their way to write catchy music, such as hit singles or tracks to be played on the radio.

[Jamesman42]

I like how JP says he forgot how to write music and then ends up writing their best album to date.

[Wim Kruithof]

I'll think two very important elements of being 'not as catchy' as back in the days, are they grow older and are fifteen studioalbums in. In the zero's there was so much new ground to discover, so much wasn't done before.

Music just wasn't by far as available as now, we had to literally by the cd to listen to it. Music has been overwhelming last couple of years (Spotify my *ss) and although they remain perfectly skilled (except LaBrie's aging voice perhaps), it is more than understandable their path is more predictable. U2, Metallica, Pink Floyd... al those great bands ends up writing in the middle and it is only a blessing, that Dream Theater's middle still is very, very good.

[Trav]

I'll think two very important elements of being 'not as catchy' as back in the days, are they grow older and are fifteen studioalbums in. In the zero's there was so much new ground to discover, so much wasn't done before.

Music just wasn't by far as available as now, we had to literally by the cd to listen to it. Music has been overwhelming last couple of years (Spotify my *ss) and although they remain perfectly skilled (except LaBrie's aging voice perhaps), it is more than understandable their path is more predictable. U2, Metallica, Pink Floyd... al those great bands ends up writing in the middle and it is only a blessing, that Dream Theater's middle still is very, very good.

Absolutely

[Stadler]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.

You can't disregard the "Inspiration Corner" as well. MP would present some Cd's that he felt the band could be inspired by when writing and jamming. This is what created Never Enough/Prophets of War (Muse), I Walk Beside You (U2), The Great Debate (Tool), and other various songs that were inspired by other artist works.

Even when it wasn't really my thing (Train of Thought) I LOVED "inspiration corner". 

[Pettor]

This album sadly didn't age that well  Not bad in any way but just quite forgettable. I have a feeling they tried to go back full prog metal style with these more complex, dynamic and heavy songs and somehow lost a bit of DT magic in the process. There's nothing wrong with the music I hear but it doesn't seem to stick. Invisible Monster is still one of the worst DT songs to date for me.

Somehow I think this album could be great when you spice it up with MP, understanding that it's easy to overhype the MP comeback and how much it will affect the band. But the groundwork for the album is solid but needs that extra melodic spice or "balls" that would make it more fun and enjoyable.

[The Curious Orange]

I find AVFTTOTW has more "spice" or "balls" than any album of the MM era. Sleeping Giant, Answering the Call and Awaken the Master are enough to make this a super-strong album, and the epic title track only adds to that. It's my favourite DT album for many a year (Transcending Time still sucks, though).

[Awaken]

This album sadly didn't age that well  Not bad in any way but just quite forgettable. I have a feeling they tried to go back full prog metal style with these more complex, dynamic and heavy songs and somehow lost a bit of DT magic in the process. There's nothing wrong with the music I hear but it doesn't seem to stick. Invisible Monster is still one of the worst DT songs to date for me.

Somehow I think this album could be great when you spice it up with MP, understanding that it's easy to overhype the MP comeback and how much it will affect the band. But the groundwork for the album is solid but needs that extra melodic spice or "balls" that would make it more fun and enjoyable.

Could not agree more.  Instant skip for me every time

[Stadler]

Could not agree more.  Instant skip for me every time

I'm kind of with you guys on that one.

[Jamesman42]

Yeah, I still need to give the last 3 albums more spins. I'm going to relisten to this one now and see if it sticks better, but I was very underwhelmed every time so far (about 5 listens).

[OpenYourEyes311]

Yeah, I don't know what's wrong with this album. It sits firmly in the last spot for "Best DT album" for me. I like most of the songs, but I'm not a very big fan of The Alien at all, and while the title track is forgettable, most of the middle tracks are pretty good. I like Transcending Time and Invisible Monster quite a bit. I dunno, there's something missing from it. The previous three albums were really good IMO, this one seemed like HUGE step down from those.

[Jamesman42]

I have the time to give thoughts track by track, so why not? I am rating these knowing how good DT can be.

------------------------
The Alien - Some cool musical spots but also feels meandering, and the way JLB sings the lyric "the alien" is off-putting to me. Feels average. 5/10

Answering the Call - Some good energy in this song. Feels more focused than the previous track and some good vocal melodies. JR sounds great here and the metal underneath fits nicely. 6.5/10

Invisible Monster - This just goes on and on but it's hard to care about it. There is a lot of music and fast playing going on but it's not fun nor does it make me think "yes, this is DT being innovative". It's just there, on the album, for 6 minutes and 30 seconds. The solo section is the best part. 3/10

Sleeping Giant - As I progress through, what I think this album feels like is not fully DT, if that makes sense. I know it's DT, but the music just lacks that DT movement and soul. This song is a great example. What makes me want to relisten to it? Not much, especially at 10 minutes. 2.5/10

Transcending Time - Best song on the album. It has more soul to it, more I want to come back to. Intro is positive and has nice flavor, synth is fun and there is room to breathe as the lyrics come in. I wouldn't place it above most of their first 12 albums worth of stuff, though. 7/10

Awaken the Master - This is another song like Invisible Monster or Sleeping Giant. It just keeps pushing forward but it doesn't interest me. This song does have some cooler moments and more memorable transitions, so it's at least a bit above those other 2 songs. 4.5/10

A View From the Top of the World - This is like a longer version of Awaken the Master and friends. I don't see what would draw me in to listen to this again. Definitely DT's worst epic. 3/10
----------------------------------

This averages out to a 4.5/10, and that feels about right. It's not the worst thing, but besides "Transcending Time", there isn't much to want to come back to. I am also not a fan of SFAM, but that is more because I just don't gel with that album besides a few songs. At least SFAM has a ton of memorable music. That isn't the case for View, IMO. Just not for me.

[Stadler]

Love the love for "Transcending Time".  My favorite on the album too, by a long shot (though I like the epic better than you do apparently). 

[MarkFitDT]

Well, im obviously going against the grain of the posts above lol. View is my 3rd fav album behind Images and Words and Scenes. The title track is right near the top of the epics for me. Its the most consistent album since Scenes for me - some since Scenes have higher highs than View but also lower lows. Transcending Time was my least fav at first but its my second fav now just ahead of Sleeping Giant.

I sincerely hope DT16 quality wise is closer to the last 2 Mangini albums than the last 2 Portnoy albums but I guess I might be in the minority there! 🤣

[Kram]

Could not agree more.  Instant skip for me every time

Yeah, it's right there with A Right of Passage as their worst for me.

[Jamesman42]

Love the love for "Transcending Time".  My favorite on the album too, by a long shot (though I like the epic better than you do apparently). 

Well, im obviously going against the grain of the posts above lol. View is my 3rd fav album behind Images and Words and Scenes. The title track is right near the top of the epics for me. Its the most consistent album since Scenes for me - some since Scenes have higher highs than View but also lower lows. Transcending Time was my least fav at first but its my second fav now just ahead of Sleeping Giant.

I sincerely hope DT16 quality wise is closer to the last 2 Mangini albums than the last 2 Portnoy albums but I guess I might be in the minority there! 🤣

The last 2 Portnoy albums had some great songs and some stinkers, but overall were decently fine. I'll take another TCOT or TSF or TDEN over what I listened to today.

[pg1067]

Love the love for "Transcending Time".  My favorite on the album too, by a long shot (though I like the epic better than you do apparently).

Same, although I'm not sure I've listened to the album enough to have a true favorite.  TT was, however, the only song that really made me say, "a ha!  They've really got something here."  I'm due for a re-listen (I've been listening to a ton of Yes in the wake of the countdown).

[MarkFitDT]

The last 2 Portnoy albums had some great songs and some stinkers, but overall were decently fine. I'll take another TCOT or TSF or TDEN over what I listened to today.

And that is your opinion which you are entitled to but Black Clouds and Systematic Chaos are my bottom 2 albums (WDADU any day over those 2). I love the Count of Tuscany but if i didnt hear TSF and TDEN again it wouldnt upset me.

[hefdaddy42]

Opinions, and everything, but if the new album is closer to BC&SL than to AVFTTOTW, I shall be sorely disappointed.

And also surprised.

[crystalstars17]

It's my favourite DT album for many a year (Transcending Time still sucks, though).

Agree and agree. Transcending Time is the weakest link, the track that kinda sticks out as the thing that doesn't belong.

That said it's not horrible and I can listen to it, it's just, meh, can take or leave it. The rest of the album is just so powerful. And contrary to many, I love Invisible Monster.

A View From the Top of the World
Definitely DT's worst epic.

Hard disagree! It's one of their very best. The slow part in the middle never fails to transport me to some remote and beautiful elsewhere. And few things in this world actually move me to tears, but this part has done so.

Opinions, and everything, but if the new album is closer to BC&SL than to AVFTTOTW, I shall be sorely disappointed.

I'll take a combination of both, please 😁 These are two of my top five albums. A culmination of both would be an amazing best-of-both-worlds scenario between the MM and MP eras. I would love this. 🙏✨

[Jamesman42]

More SDOIT, 8VM, ADTOE for me please.