*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[Jamesman42]

With MP, by 2016, he was on good terms with JP again (and already was on good terms with JR), but was not with JM and especially JL.

Damn, what did MP do to JM? 

[Ben_Jamin]

Even though we think it might be JPs decisions. What if it was all JMs 

[Trav]

Damn, what did MP do to JM?

He made some comments about JM's elusiveness while they were still in the band together. It seems like they are closer more now than ever. Hell, they live down the street from one another. 

[Awaken]

Damn, what did MP do to JM?

JM never said . . . 

[hefdaddy42]

🙅

Good point.

Why the hell is MP being discussed in this thread?  If memory serves, he had nothing whatsoever to do with this album.

[Trav]

Some of the discussions in these active threads are just blurring together.

[Jamesman42]

Good point.

Why the hell is MP being discussed in this thread?  If memory serves, he had nothing whatsoever to do with this album.

New here?

Welcome to the forums!!

[crystalstars17]

Why the hell is MP being discussed in this thread?  If memory serves, he had nothing whatsoever to do with this album.

THANK YOU !

Some of the discussions in these active threads are just blurring together.

Unfortunately 

[Setlist Scotty]

Unfortunately 

Welcome to the forums!   

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The comparison is not exactly the same, but it's more similar than you apparently know. Yes, they had planned on having JR join them as a touring member in 1994, and would have probably made him a member after some time elapsed as they did with making Derek a band member in 1995. But JR actually *chose* not to join the band as he got another offer from the Dixie Dregs at the same time that wouldn't have required as much touring, which was important to JR since his first daughter had just been born and he still had his day job. Fast forward to 1998 when they're working on LTE2 and it's apparent to JP and MP that they have great chemistry with JR, so just hypothetically they asked him if he was given the option to join DT at that point, if he'd do it, and he said yes now that his daughter was no longer a baby, DT was more established (and I believe because he was more visible publicly and so didn't need a day job), which is what got the ball rolling on him replacing Derek. So JR could have joined DT in 1994, but he decided not to - it wasn't a matter of him not being available.

With MP, by 2016, he was on good terms with JP again (and already was on good terms with JR), but was not with JM and especially JL. It wasn't until 2022 that he finally was able to patch things up with JL. So up until that point or at least 2020 (when MP recorded drums for JP's solo album), any chance of him rejoining DT was not an option. However, once he and JL patched things up, the last of the barriers that prevented MP from returning was finally gone so that at some point between the end of JP's solo tour and the announcement a year later, the agreed decision to bring MP back was made.

So in both cases, there was something preventing JR/MP from joining/rejoining DT for a period of time. In MP's case, it took much longer. But regardless, the parallels are much closer than you think.

Are you saying that if he were not on bad terms with JLB and JM the switch would have happened probably as soon as after ADTOE?

[Setlist Scotty]

Are you saying that if he were not on bad terms with JLB and JM the switch would have happened probably as soon as after ADTOE?

Not as soon as after ADToE, but *perhaps* sooner. If JP was the final person for MP to patch things up with instead of JL, who knows? *Maybe* he could have been back as early as 2017, in time to celebrate IaW's 25th anniversary since he patched things up with JP in 2016. Then again, maybe not.

As has been posted, it's quite possible this was a business decision besides being a creative and "family" one. If so, maybe they were still doing well enough financially that they wouldn't have been as motivated to bring him back then. There's a lot of unknown variables and what ifs that will never be answered, so all anyone can do is speculate which quite frankly doesn't really serve any purpose in this situation.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Not as soon as after ADToE, but *perhaps* sooner. If JP was the final person for MP to patch things up with instead of JL, who knows? *Maybe* he could have been back as early as 2017, in time to celebrate IaW's 25th anniversary since he patched things up with JP in 2016. Then again, maybe not.

As has been posted, it's quite possible this was a business decision besides being a creative and "family" one. If so, maybe they were still doing well enough financially that they wouldn't have been as motivated to bring him back then. There's a lot of unknown variables and what ifs that will never be answered, so all anyone can do is speculate which quite frankly doesn't really serve any purpose in this situation.

Got it. Yeah, I mean it is *possible* and at the end of the day as you note we are talking about hypotheticals but I think they were legitimately musically very happy with Mangini for his tenure and saw no reason to even consider a replacement until a number of things changed beyond JLB's relationship with MP. In 2013 Mike Portnoy said he wanted to come back but the band had 'closed the door' on it and thought they were just being headstrong to prove themselves without him. So very early on after MM was hired MP was trying to get back in. If the band really just wanted him back I don't see why they would have waited 10 years to arrange a make up session between him and JLB. I think getting JLB on board was necessary but not *the* reason why he was not back sooner. Plus I always wonder if JP tells JLB 'I really think this is what we need to do' does he have the actual ability to halt it? I am not sure but I don't see any reason to doubt they were professionally totally satisfied by their decision in 2011.

[crystalstars17]

I just came here to say that I listened to this album today from start to finish and... What a beautifully conceived, coherent masterpiece it is, from beginning to end. What a beautiful, masterful thing the entire, whole work is overall.

I think this is really how it needs to be enjoyed, to be enjoyed fully for what it is. It is greater than the sum of its parts.

[hunnus2000]

I just came here to say that I listened to this album today from start to finish and... What a beautifully conceived, coherent masterpiece it is, from beginning to end. What a beautiful, masterful thing the entire, whole work is overall.

I think this is really how it needs to be enjoyed, to be enjoyed fully for what it is. It is greater than the sum of its parts.

That's a great way of looking at it!!

A lot of times people look at music or movies or any entertainment for what they want as opposed to just enjoying the art.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I just came here to say that I listened to this album today from start to finish and... What a beautifully conceived, coherent masterpiece it is, from beginning to end. What a beautiful, masterful thing the entire, whole work is overall.

I think this is really how it needs to be enjoyed, to be enjoyed fully for what it is. It is greater than the sum of its parts.

   yes indeed! I am going to go to the gym later and watch some bootlegs from the tour. Hell I may even put on the album after that. It really is a sum of parts thing too, as you say. The songs all fit. Even Transcending Time, which is one of the few moments of relief from the brootal 6/7/8 string riffage. It just makes sense from start to finish.

[Wim Kruithof]

Couldn't agree more, Barstool Warrior. Whenever I listen to it in the car, on my bike or spinning the vinyl, I enjoy each song. If the next album can top this one, I'll be over the moon.

[CodyWanKenobi]

Are you saying that if he were not on bad terms with JLB and JM the switch would have happened probably as soon as after ADTOE?

Not to keep the MP discussion going in a thread where it doesn't belong, but I personally think if he hadn't had bad blood with anyone after the initial split, he would have quite possibly rejoined as soon as A7X gave him his termination notice which was WAYYY before ADTOE released. May have even been before MM was auditioned. MP himself even said he tried to rejoin the band at that time, but they declined.

[sfam2112]

MP himself even said he tried to rejoin the band at that time, but they declined.

Not to keep keeping it going but they declined because they had indeed auditioned and chosen MM by that point.

[bosk1]

Going back to the discussion a couple of pages back, I haven't really "ranked" DT's albums in awhile, and it's difficult to do so now.  The Astonishing, in particular, is really hard for me to rank against DT's other albums because it is such a different animal.  But for the sake of seeking how View compares to all the others, for me:
1.  SDOIT:  Has been my favorite for a long time.  Despite Blind Faith being the one blemish that keeps it from being a "perfect" album, the quantity of music I truly love on this album cannot be matched.
2.  SFAM:  A few songs that don't really do it for me, but some really great ones, and a concept, both musically and lyrically, that ties it all together and makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts.
3.  ADTOE:  Where the band really started to put together incredibly "consistent" albums where there is not a single song I dislike.
4.  DT12:  Picked right up where ADTOE left off. If I liked IT more, it might jump up even higher. 
5.  I&W:  A true classic.  Some songs that really don't work, but those are FAR outweighed by how much others really do work incredibly well.
6.  Awake:  Really close to bumping I&W.
7.  AVFTTOTW:  The highs don't reach as high as anything ranking above this one, but it's just so consistently good.
8.  d/t:  Similar to my feelings on View, but this one just falls short of that one.  I love how the songs sound so simple and straightforward even when they are not.
9.  8VM:  Feels like this should be higher.  Some really, really great songs here.  But a couple that drag it down a bit for me in terms of overall listening experience.
10.  SC:  A dropoff from 8VM, but some songs I really, really love.  Still one of my most listened to albums.  But some of my least favorite DT songs mixed in.
11.  The Astonishing:  Again, really tough one to rank.  I love disc 1.  I rarely listen to disc 2, and some things about how they executed the story on that second half actively bother me.  And the fact that I feel it is so unbalanced that way pulls it down here.
12.  FII:  Has always been near the bottom for me, but I have grown to appreciate it through the years as a whole, and there are some absolute classics on here (LITS, TAMP, ToT, PS, and NM). 
13.  TOT:  Solid. But feels very "samey" in a way that makes it less desireable to listen to, and some of the extended musical jams that I love this band for just feel like a bridge too far in many cases.
14.  BCSL:  Lots of really great moments.  But they are coupled with far too many other moments where I find myself saying, "This song would be really great if only they hadn't..."
15.  WDADU:  A noble fist effort.  Some great songwriting paired with lots of raw moments.  But my biggest issues are "the usual suspects" where this album is concerned:  the production is just really flat and Charlie was not a good fit vocally. 

So there you have it.  View is right in the middle of the pack for me.  I still really enjoy it.  It's my go-to "bike ride home from work" album, so I listen frequently in that context.  And ranking it #7 in the DT discography means that, despite six other albums finishing above it, I still love it.  As usually happens when a new album comes out, when the next one drops, I will probably listen to that one nonstop and shelve this, where it will fall into neglect for the next several months until I pick it back up and listen with fresh ears.  At that point, I may find that I rank it differently.  But here's the thing with my ranking:  I'm not one of those "DT can do no wrong and all of their albums are better than anyone else's" fans.  But I would say that "most of their albums are better than almost anyone else's."  If I did a top 100 albums of all bands, I suspect that my top 10 DT albums would all make that list.  And most, if not all, would likely make a top 50.  View is definitely included in that bunch.


tl;dnr:  it's pretty good

[Glasser]

Loving the DT12 ranking Boss man!!!

[TAC]

Again, really tough one to rank.  I love disc 1.  I rarely listen to disc 2, and some things about how they executed the story on that second half actively bother me.  And the fact that I feel it is so unbalanced that way pulls it down here.

I love your description here of 6D's.

[sfam2112]

I love your description here of 6D's.

 

[bosk1]

Haha.  TAC got jokes.

[Lonk]

I've been doing a discography run and finally reached this album.

Just wanted to comment that from their entire discography, the only song that I actually wanted to skip was Transcending Time (I didn't). I'm happy that so many seem to enjoy this track, but it does absolutely nothing for me. Maybe I'll change my mind if they play it in the upcoming tour (which I have a feeling they will).

ATM, AVFTTOTW, and ATC are still great though 

[DTiwbwMP]

I've been doing a discography run and finally reached this album.

Just wanted to comment that from their entire discography, the only song that I actually wanted to skip was Transcending Time (I didn't). I'm happy that so many seem to enjoy this track, but it does absolutely nothing for me. Maybe I'll change my mind if they play it in the upcoming tour (which I have a feeling they will).

ATM, AVFTTOTW, and ATC are still great though 

TT, ATM & ATC are the ONLY 3 songs that have held up strong for me. VERY WEAK album imo.

[Wim Kruithof]

TT, ATM & ATC are the ONLY 3 songs that have held up strong for me. VERY WEAK album imo.

I can follow one saying it's not their greatest, although this album has so many great moments, but 'VERY WEAK'?

But, ever since you came back and with that nickname of yours, I'll figure you're most likely to dislike  all that's been crafted without Portnoy.

But even if I can understand that, I'll find it truly hard to imagine how this wonderful album can be framed as 'very weak'.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It's one of their most consistent albums and is a fine work of art.

[DTiwbwMP]

I can follow one saying it's not their greatest, although this album has so many great moments, but 'VERY WEAK'?

But, ever since you came back and with that nickname of yours, I'll figure you're most likely to dislike  all that's been crafted without Portnoy.

But even if I can understand that, I'll find it truly hard to imagine how this wonderful album can be framed as 'very weak'.

Not really fair to say, as I LOVE ADTOE & DT12. It's the last 3 albums I have an issue with. I didn't like DOT from the start that much, but I DID "like" AVFTTOTW when it came out, but it just hasn't held up for me. I will respectfully not event comment on the dreck that IS TA! None of this has ANYTHING to do with MM.

[TAC]

None of this has ANYTHING to do with MM.

But everything about the lack of MP?

[macneil]

Re-visiting this album now, I think I would describe it as "another good DT album". I played it heaps on release, though I haven't found myself seeking it out much since other than the title track, which is fantastic.

It's one of their most consistent albums, every song is at least pretty good to great, though nothing particularly mind-blowing. Out of the last 5 albums I think both DOT and ADTOE are stronger albums than View, and the self-titled is more memorable.

It's a comfortable album made by a band 15 albums in who know what their style is and aren't going to shake things up too much, but they're still executing to a high quality. If MP had never re-joined I would be expecting DT16 to be along similar lines to this album, which would be fine with me (though I do admit to be in a bit more excited for DT16 than I would have been otherwise due to this change).

Things I really love about it:

• The title track is excellent, I enjoy that it's structured a bit differently to the usual DT epic
• Mangini's strongest performance, his drumming on The Alien and other parts is phenomenal
• JM has some great moments, always love to hear him up in the mix
• Loved the way the 8-string was integrated and nice addition, I'm glad it felt very DT and not just trying to ape the latest djent sounds
• Sleeping Giant is great!

[DTiwbwMP]

But everything about the lack of MP?

Not at all....well, maybe

[Wim Kruithof]

Not really fair to say, as I LOVE ADTOE & DT12. It's the last 3 albums I have an issue with. I didn't like DOT from the start that much, but I DID "like" AVFTTOTW when it came out, but it just hasn't held up for me. I will respectfully not event comment on the dreck that IS TA! None of this has ANYTHING to do with MM.

But isn't DTwwbwMP 'Dream Theater, what would be without Mike Portnoy' in the first place?

And I happen to love The Astonishing. Not amongst their best - for me though - but that doesn't mean it's dreck. It's a fine peace of art, although not prog (except A New Beginning, which is prog a.f.), nor metal. But the way it is composed and the themes that's continually return in different ways, I really do believe that's pure art.

[TAC]

But isn't DTwwbwMP 'Dream Theater, what would be without Mike Portnoy' in the first place?

It's DT whah whah boo where's MP.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

It's DT whah whah boo where's MP.

[DTiwbwMP]

Ouch