*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[crystalstars17]

the choosing of the sounds, the way they are recorded and put in the mix is a big part of production.

But at least on the more recent albums, clarity is all I can hear? For example, Outcry is one of my favorite songs. One of the things I love about it is that you can hear every instrument, no matter how grand the wall of sound gets. That's one of the things I love about this band overall.

Again, I don't understand this beyond an average listener's point of view, I don't have experience with the technical end of recording like some evidently do here, so my opinion may be unsophisticated/way off.

[Schurftkut]

since MP left the drums took a hit in the mix bigtime. Only the last two albums have mangini shine a bit more, though his toms still sound like ass. Guitars took the forefront at the cost of cymbals and keyboards, whishywashy effects on JLB...

[Kocak]

since MP left the drums took a hit in the mix bigtime. Only the last two albums have mangini shine a bit more, though his toms still sound like ass. Guitars took the forefront at the cost of cymbals and keyboards, whishywashy effects on JLB...

None of the Mangini era DT albums did him justice to be honest. JP knows how to arrange, but he has no idea when it comes to the mixing and mastering bits.

[efx]

I have no complaints about the last mix that Sneap did for them other than it's a bit on the dark side compared to some of their other albums. But for me, the toms on the last album sound terrific, truly one of the best tom sounds I have ever heard recorded. Very clear and they are allowed to ring out a bit which is somewhat rare in modern productions.

[Ben_Jamin]

My only complaint is the tracklist order. It flows better this way for me...

The Alien
Answering The Call
Transcending Time
Sleeping Giant
Awaken The Master
Invisible Monster
A View From The Top Of The World

[TheOutlawXanadu]

since MP left the drums took a hit in the mix bigtime. Only the last two albums have mangini shine a bit more, though his toms still sound like ass. Guitars took the forefront at the cost of cymbals and keyboards, whishywashy effects on JLB...

Even as someone who thinks the album sounds great overall, I agree that the guitars dominate too much. The keyboards in particular I think are pushed to the back way too often.

[Max Kuehnau]

But at least on the more recent albums, clarity is all I can hear? For example, Outcry is one of my favorite songs. One of the things I love about it is that you can hear every instrument, no matter how grand the wall of sound gets. That's one of the things I love about this band overall.

Again, I don't understand this beyond an average listener's point of view, I don't have experience with the technical end of recording like some evidently do here, so my opinion may be unsophisticated/way off.

It's neither of the two. Dramatic Turn definitely has more clarity than say the previous three MP era albums to me. (which btw was a welcome change to me as well)

[Stadler]

since MP left the drums took a hit in the mix bigtime. Only the last two albums have mangini shine a bit more, though his toms still sound like ass. Guitars took the forefront at the cost of cymbals and keyboards, whishywashy effects on JLB...

I think this is accurate, but I gently and politely disagree on how that manifested.  Or maybe we're saying the same thing but I think the drums have always been out of whack with the rest of the band during the Mangini era.  Some of it might be note choice and arrangement, not production/mixing/mastering.  I don't know, I wasn't in the room with them.  But I do know that while I generally don't give a rat's ass about "production", there are several DT albums - I&W, SFAM, O8 - that really strike me for how good they sound independent of the music on there, and I've not had that feeling for at least 13 years now.

[WilliamMunny]

Yeah, I guess I'm a little curious as to what "production issues" refers to.

Let me rephrase...I should've said, "MY issues with the production."

Obviously, it's subjective and a matter of taste, but to my ears, AVFTTOTW is brickwalled to death, lacks any breathing room, the drums sound like canons, and JP's tone is, well, it's just not my bag.

JLB's vocals are drenched in effects and the songs just, in my opinion, are done no favors by virtually every aspect of the production.

Again, the band did nothing wrong, this is a 'me' thing, plain and simple.

[Max Kuehnau]

After many listens (more than any other MM release other than ADTOE), I'd say this has settled into a comfortable 2 spot behind ADTOE (which I rate very highly overall). My issues, as with virtually every Portnoy release, are mostly to do with the drums and production overall, but the songs are, for the most part, interesting and have continued to grow on me.

I have to agree.

[Trav]

I had issues with Mangini's playing for a while until AVFTTOTW came out. Then I realized it was the way his drums were recorded. Especially on DT and TA. The snare is ass. Too much compression, as well as the toms. The kick drums are the loudest thing in the mix. All of that gives it the "drum machine" feel. DOT was a little better. The last one was where he said he had the most say in how his drums sounded. I think a big advantage MP always had was that he had a say in the way he sounded. Bar I&W maybe.

[crystalstars17]

Funny, before MM was let go, everyone was so happy that he was finally making more contributions.

[Setlist Scotty]

Funny, before MM was let go, everyone was so happy that he was finally making more contributions.

Musical contributions are different from how the mix is, which he probably had little to do with.

[Max Kuehnau]

exactly

[crystalstars17]

Thank you for clarifying.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Funny, before MM was let go, everyone was so happy that he was finally making more contributions.

You know, the more I've thought about this over the last few months the more I convinced I've become that all of the things people have been complaining about (the click and live shows, the setlists, the the lack of fan engagement except when someone wants to sell us some product, the uneven performances from JLB, the drum mixes, production, the Astonishing, etc.) have almost nothing to do with Mike Mangini and almost everything to do with other members' decisions or other members' outsized influence relative to Mike's. The dominant narrative out there now is that Portnoy is going to fix a lot of these things, but it is hard not to entertain the possibility that Mangini is sort of like a scapegoat for decisions that he had no authority to make.

I guess another way of thinking about it is that it has nothing to do with Mangini but we just need Portnoy back to check the other members, but still. All of these things were allegedly wrong with the last 13 years so we need to replace the guy who didn't make the decisions feels like a yucky but increasingly realistic narrative some fans have been giving this. I know that is highly unlikely to be the band's position but reading some of the FB, YT comments it is hard to ignore.

[TAC]

You know, the more I've thought about this over the last few months the more I convinced I've become that all of the things people have been complaining about (the click and live shows, the setlists, the the lack of fan engagement except when someone wants to sell us some product, the uneven performances from JLB, the drum mixes, production, the Astonishing, etc.) have almost nothing to do with Mike Mangini and almost everything to do with other members' decisions or other members' outsized influence relative to Mike's. The dominant narrative out there now is that Portnoy is going to fix a lot of these things, but it is hard not to entertain the possibility that Mangini is sort of like a scapegoat for decisions that he had no authority to make.

I guess another way of thinking about it is that it has nothing to do with Mangini but we just need Portnoy back to check the other members, but still. All of these things were allegedly wrong with the last 13 years so we need to replace the guy who didn't make the decisions feels like a yucky but increasingly realistic narrative some fans have been giving this. I know that is highly unlikely to be the band's position but reading some of the FB, YT comments it is hard to ignore.

I said this a while back. Mangini was...too nice for lack of a better word. He looked at himself as an employee rather than a band member it seems. He stayed in his lane. I think the music released in the Mangini Era is mostly excellent, but yeah when it came to drum mixes and drum sounds, I really wish Mangini "stood up for himself".

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I said this a while back. Mangini was...too nice for lack of a better word. He looked at himself as an employee rather than a band member it seems. He stayed in his lane. I think the music released in the Mangini Era is mostly excellent, but yeah when it came to drum mixes and drum sounds, I really wish Mangini "stood up for himself".

Could not agree more. From day one when he said 'I am not what Mike (Portnoy) was in this' to his last day when he reminded us that on day one it was not his place to 'fill all the roles that Mike had. I was to play drums to help the band carry on' it was almost like either by design or by default he became a bridge to Portnoy's eventual return when that window opened.

I think he may well have sold himself short. I get he was never going to be *exactly* what MP was. MP has a ton more fans built through his role and decades of fan rapport, but Mangini should have as you say put his foot down on the drum mix. What's interesting is that after View, JP said that it was really important to Mangini that the mix/production capture the intricate stuff he was doing on the cymbals. To me, that really emphasized how little push back he had/provided on the first couple of records. The bigger role in songwriting was another thing. It just took way too long in my opinion and I think just did not help him. He was asked in an interview some time after Distance Over Time why it had taken so long for him to get more involved in the song writing and he just said something like 'I don't know. I just don't know.'

[Setlist Scotty]

The dominant narrative out there now is that Portnoy is going to fix a lot of these things, but it is hard not to entertain the possibility that Mangini is sort of like a scapegoat for decisions that he had no authority to make.

Really what you're saying is not unlike what happened when Derek was booted out of the band to make room for JR. He kind of became the scapegoat for everything wrong with FII even though he would have been more than happy to "prog" things up as evident by the M2 demo and what he did with Planet X. But in both cases, it was a matter of getting the person that the rest of the band connected with more that took priority. They felt it with JR when playing in LTE, and they felt it with MP.
 
 

I think he may well have sold himself short. I get he was never going to be *exactly* what MP was.

You might be right, but it was probably a case of MM being too nice of a guy and perhaps being too afraid to rock the apple cart for fear of losing his gig that he never spoke up.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Really what you're saying is not unlike what happened when Derek was booted out of the band to make room for JR. He kind of became the scapegoat for everything wrong with FII even though he would have been more than happy to "prog" things up as evident by the M2 demo and what he did with Planet X. But in both cases, it was a matter of getting the person that the rest of the band connected with more that took priority. They felt it with JR when playing in LTE, and they felt it with MP.
 
 You might be right, but it was probably a case of MM being too nice of a guy and perhaps being too afraid to rock the apple cart for fear of losing his gig that he never spoke up.

Definitely there are some similarities between how the two cases went down but I am not sure this was purely or even substantially a matter of getting the guy they 'connected with more' - though I suppose it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean on a personal level maybe so; JP and MP have deep personal ties. I really have no idea how close the guys bonded with Mangini on a personal level because it is an issue that has never come up.

From what I have read, they replaced DS because they were trying to hire JR all along and he was not available. When he finally was, it was time to act.

I am not sure that is the case with Mangini. They hand selected their drummer from a pool of insanely talented and capable musicians. They practically gave these guys anal probes in the documentary and I am sure there were tons of personal references in a very long drawn out process. According to the band, he was unquestionably their guy for 13 years and 5 albums; in contrast DS was there for 1 album. Mike Portnoy was available for most of this time and if this was really the goal all along - to pounce on the guy they just connect better with - I don't see why it took over a decade. Instead, time and time again they insisted Manini was a permanent member. As recently as 2020, John Petrucci immediately shot down the idea of a MP reunion in 2020. (https://metalinjection.net/news/john-petrucci-explains-why-mike-portnoy-wont-be-rejoining-dream-theater-anytime-soon). In fact in that interview, the very thing that he said was 'not the case' ended up being the case.

But the point is that the last 13 years does not seem to be a case of 'MP is our guy if available. We like MM but the musical chemistry with MP is just that much better that should he become available we're pouncing.' Nor does it feel like the case now.

The 600lb gorilla that can never be ignored is the importance of business in, well, a business. I note that both changes came at pivotal points in the band's trajectory and if *my opinion* is correct that this played a significant role (alongside other factors), then their calculus seems to have paid off in spades.

[WilliamMunny]

Definitely there are some similarities between how the two cases went down but I am not sure this was purely or even substantially a matter of getting the guy they 'connected with more' - though I suppose it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean on a personal level maybe so; JP and MP have deep personal ties. I really have no idea how close the guys bonded with Mangini on a personal level because it is an issue that has never come up.

From what I have read, they replaced DS because they were trying to hire JR all along and he was not available. When he finally was, it was time to act.

I am not sure that is the case with Mangini. They hand selected their drummer from a pool of insanely talented and capable musicians. They practically gave these guys anal probes in the documentary and I am sure there were tons of personal references in a very long drawn out process. According to the band, he was unquestionably their guy for 13 years and 5 albums; in contrast DS was there for 1 album. Mike Portnoy was available for most of this time and if this was really the goal all along - to pounce on the guy they just connect better with - I don't see why it took over a decade. Instead, time and time again they insisted Manini was a permanent member. As recently as 2020, John Petrucci immediately shot down the idea of a MP reunion in 2020. (https://metalinjection.net/news/john-petrucci-explains-why-mike-portnoy-wont-be-rejoining-dream-theater-anytime-soon). In fact in that interview, the very thing that he said was 'not the case' ended up being the case.

But the point is that the last 13 years does not seem to be a case of 'MP is our guy if available. We like MM but the musical chemistry with MP is just that much better that should he become available we're pouncing.' Nor does it feel like the case now.

The 600lb gorilla that can never be ignored is the importance of business in, well, a business. I note that both changes came at pivotal points in the band's trajectory and if *my opinion* is correct that this played a significant role (alongside other factors), then their calculus seems to have paid off in spades.

This is such a good point!

[Stadler]

Funny, before MM was let go, everyone was so happy that he was finally making more contributions.

Not everyone.

I mean, it's not like I was UNHAPPY, or wanted him to STFU, but I've written this often about several bands: I'm a fan of the "clubhouse".  It is rare when you have four or five people together in a creative unit and you replace one that the remaining elements all behave/act/respond EXACTLY the same.  Even if they THINK they are behaving/acting/responding the same, it's not always the case. I don't say this to "blame" anybody; I'm not interested in "blame", and I'm not suggesting anyone is or will be inauthentic.  But it's a fact of life, when inputs are different (that is, there are different influences around a person) sometimes the reactions are different.

This stuff can't be calculated, or planned, or forecasted, and people DO change (it's interesting; research now shows that even PERSONALITIES can change).

[hefdaddy42]

Not everyone.

Everyone in the band.  She wasn't talking about YOU, Stads.

[Stadler]

Everyone in the band.  He wasn't talking about YOU, Stads.

I just wanted to be in there somewhere. 

[Dream Team]

You know, the more I've thought about this over the last few months the more I convinced I've become that all of the things people have been complaining about (the click and live shows, the setlists, the the lack of fan engagement except when someone wants to sell us some product, the uneven performances from JLB, the drum mixes, production, the Astonishing, etc.) have almost nothing to do with Mike Mangini and almost everything to do with other members' decisions or other members' outsized influence relative to Mike's. The dominant narrative out there now is that Portnoy is going to fix a lot of these things, but it is hard not to entertain the possibility that Mangini is sort of like a scapegoat for decisions that he had no authority to make.

I guess another way of thinking about it is that it has nothing to do with Mangini but we just need Portnoy back to check the other members, but still. All of these things were allegedly wrong with the last 13 years so we need to replace the guy who didn't make the decisions feels like a yucky but increasingly realistic narrative some fans have been giving this. I know that is highly unlikely to be the band's position but reading some of the FB, YT comments it is hard to ignore.

I'm so glad you brought this point out, and it's perfectly valid. If I had to prioritize a list of "issues" I had with the current state of the band prior to MP's rehire, it would have been:

1. LIVE VOCALS x1000


2. Stilted, "stare at my hands" live shows
3. Poor production choices on 3 of the 5 albums with Mangini
4. Little engagement or interaction with fans / no new YtseJam releases
5. Bandmembers (mostly JP) hawking their wares

Somewhere around #27 you could get to "MM doesn't play exctly like MP".

[crystalstars17]

Everyone in the band.  He wasn't talking about YOU, Stads.

*She

[hefdaddy42]

*She

I knew that.  Sorry.

Edited my post.

[crystalstars17]

I knew that.  Sorry.

No worries! 🤗

[Jamesman42]

[KevShmev]

I agree that the drum sound on records is the one thing that will be a major plus with Portnoy back in the band.  A View... finally got Mangini's drums sounding really good, but it took five tries for them to get it right, IMO. Portnoy's drums always sound great on record, so that is one thing no one should worry about.

Songwriting is another story.  I submit that the five albums with Mangini were rock solid proof that Portnoy was not missed at all in that area.  The 90s were so long ago, and if you look at the last five albums they did with Portnoy and then the five with Mangini, the songwriting is pretty equal across the board, at least to me.  They will never top I&W, Awake and Scenes (IMO), but the unit with Portnoy in the mid to later 00s wasn't coming close to topping any of those either.  And their songwriting was mostly really good/excellent on the last few albums with Mangini, so hopefully that trend continues going forward.  My worry with Portnoy back in the band is the songs will get bloated again, like they did on the last few albums with him before his departure.

[Setlist Scotty]

Definitely there are some similarities between how the two cases went down but I am not sure this was purely or even substantially a matter of getting the guy they 'connected with more' - though I suppose it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean on a personal level maybe so; JP and MP have deep personal ties. I really have no idea how close the guys bonded with Mangini on a personal level because it is an issue that has never come up.

From what I have read, they replaced DS because they were trying to hire JR all along and he was not available. When he finally was, it was time to act.

I am not sure that is the case with Mangini. They hand selected their drummer from a pool of insanely talented and capable musicians. They practically gave these guys anal probes in the documentary and I am sure there were tons of personal references in a very long drawn out process. According to the band, he was unquestionably their guy for 13 years and 5 albums; in contrast DS was there for 1 album. Mike Portnoy was available for most of this time and if this was really the goal all along - to pounce on the guy they just connect better with - I don't see why it took over a decade. Instead, time and time again they insisted Manini was a permanent member. As recently as 2020, John Petrucci immediately shot down the idea of a MP reunion in 2020. (https://metalinjection.net/news/john-petrucci-explains-why-mike-portnoy-wont-be-rejoining-dream-theater-anytime-soon). In fact in that interview, the very thing that he said was 'not the case' ended up being the case.

But the point is that the last 13 years does not seem to be a case of 'MP is our guy if available. We like MM but the musical chemistry with MP is just that much better that should he become available we're pouncing.' Nor does it feel like the case now.

The 600lb gorilla that can never be ignored is the importance of business in, well, a business. I note that both changes came at pivotal points in the band's trajectory and if *my opinion* is correct that this played a significant role (alongside other factors), then their calculus seems to have paid off in spades.

The comparison is not exactly the same, but it's more similar than you apparently know. Yes, they had planned on having JR join them as a touring member in 1994, and would have probably made him a member after some time elapsed as they did with making Derek a band member in 1995. But JR actually *chose* not to join the band as he got another offer from the Dixie Dregs at the same time that wouldn't have required as much touring, which was important to JR since his first daughter had just been born and he still had his day job. Fast forward to 1998 when they're working on LTE2 and it's apparent to JP and MP that they have great chemistry with JR, so just hypothetically they asked him if he was given the option to join DT at that point, if he'd do it, and he said yes now that his daughter was no longer a baby, DT was more established (and I believe because he was more visible publicly and so didn't need a day job), which is what got the ball rolling on him replacing Derek. So JR could have joined DT in 1994, but he decided not to - it wasn't a matter of him not being available.

With MP, by 2016, he was on good terms with JP again (and already was on good terms with JR), but was not with JM and especially JL. It wasn't until 2022 that he finally was able to patch things up with JL. So up until that point or at least 2020 (when MP recorded drums for JP's solo album), any chance of him rejoining DT was not an option. However, once he and JL patched things up, the last of the barriers that prevented MP from returning was finally gone so that at some point between the end of JP's solo tour and the announcement a year later, the agreed decision to bring MP back was made.

So in both cases, there was something preventing JR/MP from joining/rejoining DT for a period of time. In MP's case, it took much longer. But regardless, the parallels are much closer than you think.

[TAC]

Well, the difference is that MP was hovering/angling to get back in the band whereas that wasn't the case with Jordan.

[Trav]

Delete. My point went off the rails. It's not even worth it.

[Setlist Scotty]

Well, the difference is that MP was hovering/angling to get back in the band whereas that wasn't the case with Jordan.

Not exactly. There was a time after about a year where he was willing to come back (after he had enough of a break away), but after a few years, he realized it wasn't gonna happen and so he gave up any thought of it happening. Even when he patched things up with JP in 2016, he was already resigned to the fact that he wasn't gonna return but was just happy to have a relationship with JP again. I think it was only when he worked on JP's solo album that he may have started getting hope again.

In any case, the point still stands that MP would not be back in the band had he not been the preferred choice just as was the case with JR; just as the band told MP no when he initially tried to return a few months after he quit and in the first few following years when he openly stated he'd be willing to return if the band would have him, they could have easily told him no again if they wanted to.

[crystalstars17]

*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

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