*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[voncorn]

Favorite Mangini record is either this or ADToE. These two sound a lot more like the classic era DT albums than DT12, TA, and DoT.

[Kyo]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_oEIxASVVaw

Love this part from the mega epic on View but never understood it was in 23/16. 

So much of the title track is in 23/16. Almost all of the opening, large blocks of the instrumental section leading into the mellow part, and then the entire coda, too. Plus the first verses are a modified version of the 23/16 riff, just extended into 4/4 with a triplet feel (basically 24/16).

Nor did I catch the the fact that Mike is calling back to the 'helicopter' idea with the feet in the play through. I can't hear that the foot pattern is happening on the album.

Yeah, that is pretty wild stuff. No way in hell Portnoy will ever play it this way – and he might be right, cause honestly, I don't hear it all that much, either. 


What I found eye-opening was MM showing how he counts the other verse with the shifting meters as 11/4 + 11/8. This one (time code included):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MROGXpUo8vU&t=322s

Here he demonstrates how he counts it (sadly it's drums only, without the rest of the music):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuMRaVhZYcY

[hefdaddy42]

I still don't love the title track, but the rest of the album other than Invisible Monster is straight fire.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Just wanted to add to the pile of love for this album from the past couple of pages. It's awesome. It sounds great. The band let loose more than probably any record since ADTOE (in terms of technical wizardry). It has a kind of loose concept or inspiration that generally ties everything together.

I think one of the things working against it, which has been the case with Dream Theater for a while and will continue to be so, is that the band has such a big discography over 40 years that none of it feels particularly new or revolutionary. I don't personally care a ton about that, but I also understand why some people may be a bit less enthused.

[Dream Team]

Just wanted to add to the pile of love for this album from the past couple of pages. It's awesome. It sounds great. The band let loose more than probably any record since ADTOE (in terms of technical wizardry). It has a kind of loose concept or inspiration that generally ties everything together.

I think one of the things working against it, which has been the case with Dream Theater for a while and will continue to be so, is that the band has such a big discography over 40 years that none of it feels particularly new or revolutionary. I don't personally care a ton about that, but I also understand why some people may be a bit less enthused.

Totally agree.

[wolfking]

See, outside of the title track, ATC is my fav.  I just don't understand SG.  It lacks melody and anything really memorable IMO.  Guess it shows the depth and layers of the album with so many varied opinions on the tracks.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

So much of the title track is in 23/16. Almost all of the opening, large blocks of the instrumental section leading into the mellow part, and then the entire coda, too. Plus the first verses are a modified version of the 23/16 riff, just extended into 4/4 with a triplet feel (basically 24/16).



Yeah, that is pretty wild stuff. No way in hell Portnoy will ever play it this way – and he might be right, cause honestly, I don't hear it all that much, either. 


What I found eye-opening was MM showing how he counts the other verse with the shifting meters as 11/4 + 11/8. This one (time code included):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MROGXpUo8vU&t=322s

Here he demonstrates how he counts it (sadly it's drums only, without the rest of the music):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuMRaVhZYcY

Awesome! Thanks for sending this one. I missed it. Tried counting along to it earlier. Took a little bit to get used to but I did 11 quarter notes and then for 11/8 I did 5 quarter notes plus an eighth. No clue if this is the most efficient way. His command of all these things at once is pretty insane.

[Max Kuehnau]

MM subdivides the 23 into three groups of 6 and one group of 5. (all having the same value as a quarter note in that case btw) The 11 and 11 thing btw is another section that also involves parts in 33. (yes). Brilliant.

[Cool Chris]

I don't consider myself brilliant by any means, but I like to think I have above average intelligence. I have a bachelor's degree. For what that's worth. And there are few things in life that make me feel as stupid as I do when someone tries to explain time signatures to me.

[Crier Tuck]

This is my favorite MM album and it's not even close.  For whatever reason, the vibe just works.  The choruses are strong, the epic title track is kind of different for DT and has a kind of slow building vibe that just works.  The drums (pretty much a sound weakness with every other MM record, due to mix or whatever) actually hold up well on this album.

To me the interesting thing is that The Alien is like my least favorite track on this record and I usually skip it when I listen to this CD.  It just sounds way too much like DT by the numbers, the chorus is not great, and it just doesn't hit for me like all the other songs do....even Invisible Monster works for me for what it is...a melodic song.

The other thing that works for me here is that it feels like there is much less wankery and endless noodling like there is on other records like ADTOE...but on this record it all makes sense.

[BeatriceNB]

I don't consider myself brilliant by any means, but I like to think I have above average intelligence. I have a bachelor's degree. For what that's worth. And there are few things in life that make me feel as stupid as I do when someone tries to explain time signatures to me.

Time signatures are just matrioshkas of different sizes and types   

[Max Kuehnau]

And there are few things in life that make me feel as stupid as I do when someone tries to explain time signatures to me.

I didn't (nor do I) intend to make anyone feel stupid. Time signatures are a very logical thing. (as are rhythms) Once you get the basic ideas, you're off and running.

[Max Kuehnau]

Time signatures are just matrioshkas of different sizes and types   

yeah in a way 

[Ben_Jamin]

I listened to it again recently and I realized the album has a lot of the things I like about DT.

The Alien has the awesome guitar solo in the intro that reminds me of the intro solo to ITPOE pt.1. That style and tone of those JP solo's are what I would consider to be my favorite type of JP solo.

Answering The Call has the groove, rhythm, and the great main riff. JLB's vocals shine for me here as well, going with his comfortable raspy vocals to the soaring chorus.

Invisible Monster, while this is my least favorite from the album it has specific type of tone and atmosphere that I feel really fits the subject of the lyrics. I like the last half of the JP solo where he harmonizes.

Sleeping Giant, although it isn't one I listen to much it's still not bad. I like the second half of the song more starting with the second verse. The ending vocals are neat as well with JLB's backing vocals being a big draw for me there.

Transcending Time has the uplifting melodic style I enjoy from them and actually hope they would do more of. I was glad they made this song and I just wish they would've brought this out live.

Awaken The Master is my second favorite from the album. It's got lyrics that are deep and introspective, "You made it to top just to find out you're only half-way there. All along missing the point of the journey." These lyrics describe the theme of the album for me, going through great lengths and proving the determination of the human spirit to succeed. I do also wonder if a lot of the riffs and ideas for this song were JM's ideas, like how S2N was a JM idea they decided to work on, because the bass groove under those lyrics are delicious.

A View From The Top of The World is an epic I really enjoy a lot. I like how the lyrics describe various ways that humans have accomplished daring feats by using mountain climbing, human flying squirrels, and a deep sea scuba diver. My favorite part is the instrumental riff and groove. The ending makes me imagine a person finally reaching the pinnacle of the mountain, where the clouds part revealing the sun shining it's rays, spotlighting the persons accomplishment. I do not mind the ending at all either, I think it fits the theme.

[Cool Chris]

I didn't (nor do I) intend to make anyone feel stupid. Time signatures are a very logical thing. (as are rhythms) Once you get the basic ideas, you're off and running.

I recognize it as a me thing. I just start watching one of those videos, and 8 seconds in I go all "I DON'T GET THIS! I DON'T EVEN CARE! WHY AM I WASTING MY TIME HERE?" and turn it off.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I recognize it as a me thing. I just start watching one of those videos, and 8 seconds in I go all "I DON'T GET THIS! I DON'T EVEN CARE! WHY AM I WASTING MY TIME HERE?" and turn it off.

The note duration is in the denominator (4= quarter note, 8 = eighth note) and how many of those notes you have in a single measure is in the numerator. So 4/4 means 4 quarter notes per measure.

[hefdaddy42]

The note duration is in the denominator (4= quarter note, 8 = eighth note) and how many of those notes you have in a single measure is in the numerator. So 4/4 means 4 quarter notes per measure.

I guarantee that did not help lol

[Max Kuehnau]

A View From The Top of The World is an epic I really enjoy a lot. I like how the lyrics describe various ways that humans have accomplished daring feats by using mountain climbing, human flying squirrels, and a deep sea scuba diver. My favorite part is the instrumental riff and groove. The ending makes me imagine a person finally reaching the pinnacle of the mountain, where the clouds part revealing the sun shining it's rays, spotlighting the persons accomplishment. I do not mind the ending at all either, I think it fits the theme.

it very much does IMHO yes (especially given that they reprise the introductory theme, so imagine a person having just accomplished what they did and then the hunger of doing it again and again, right away too. You get the idea)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

it very much does IMHO yes (especially given that they reprise the introductory theme, so imagine a person having just accomplished what they did and then the hunger of doing it again and again, right away too. You get the idea)

That's exactly what I feel from it. You reached the top but the glockenspiel and return of the main theme taking us out tell us the story isn't over because the hunger - as you say - for the thrill ("over and over again") has not been truly satisfied.

Had they used a big grand ending, it wouldn't have delivered the message as well IMO. My God it's brilliant.

[Max Kuehnau]

although it is a grand ending, since the last two or three measures before the introductory theme is reprised are as grand as any one of them during Illu. The difference is how unexpected (albeit as life affirming in totally different ways to Illu) the ending to View might have been to some people
And yes, it's my personal favourite long piece by them. Ever. (and their hardest to play too)

[durga2112]

The end of the title track actually reminds me of "A Change of Seasons", of all things - sure, "The Crimson Sunset" is about as grand an ending as you can get, but the way it reprises the intro at the very end (and even leaves it unresolved) pretty much says "Life goes on", which is essentially the same feeling I get from the end of "View".

And yes, "View" is indeed brilliant. It took a while to grow on me, but I now consider it my second favourite long piece by Dream Theater (ACOS is my favourite and it will be tough for anything to ever top it). Technically, whatever they're doing flies way over my head, but it connects to me on an emotional level, which is all I can ever ask a piece of music to do.

[Max Kuehnau]

I guarantee that did not help lol

unlikely yeah 

[Max Kuehnau]

Technically, whatever they're doing flies way over my head, but it connects to me on an emotional level, which is all I can ever ask a piece of music to do.

this was me as a child when I listened to them (at some point anyway) I gather you're not a musician then  (no disrespect to you though)

[durga2112]

this was me as a child when I listened to them (at some point anyway) I gather you're not a musician then  (no disrespect to you though)

My musical ability has never progressed beyond strumming chords and singing - I can play things like Tom Petty or Eagles songs no problem, but prog metal is something I don't even touch.  And to be honest, that's enough for me - I love listening to music, but I'm happy to leave the playing to those who are good at it.

[Max Kuehnau]

yeah nothing wrong with that

[gzarruk]

The title track has become my favorite DT epic ever. All the talk here prompted me to revisit it a couple times the last few days and I'm still mindblown by it as i was the first time. What an incredible composition and performance.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It's funny how wildly different fan reactions are to the album. I guess ultimately it's not different from any other DT album where you have some who love it and some who think it's extremely boring.

I think this is going to be remembered as a cult classic record. If you get View you love it otherwise it's just alright. It's got a following, though.

[Glasser]

View is still growing on me more and more. Loved it when it came out, love it more now. Mangini left us as he begun. Kicking ass!

[BeatriceNB]

It's funny how wildly different fan reactions are to the album. I guess ultimately it's not different from any other DT album where you have some who love it and some who think it's extremely boring.

I think this is going to be remembered as a cult classic record. If you get View you love it otherwise it's just alright. It's got a following, though.

Even the absolute classics like I&W and SFAM surely have dedicated haters. Though I haven't met any for Images And Words yet

[Dream Team]

Even the absolute classics like I&W and SFAM surely have dedicated haters. Though I haven't met any for Images And Words yet

That's because they're likely from other planets.

When my oldest daughter was in music playing flute she tried explaining time signatures to me, I got it after awhile but it's like a hump your brain has to get over first.

[Northern Lion]

The title track has become my favorite DT epic ever. All the talk here prompted me to revisit it a couple times the last few days and I'm still mindblown by it as i was the first time. What an incredible composition and performance.

I'm right there with you.  Although In The Presence of Enemies is still probably my favorite, A View From The Top Of The World is a VERY close second.  Both the music and the lyrics take you on a journey unlike any of their other epics.  I know some criticize the ending, but personally I think it's perfect the way it is.  I wouldn't want a traditional grandiose finish.  I think it would detract from the meaning and overall feeling the song gives the listener.

The composition is varied, moody and beautiful and also gives me a feeling of anxiousness paired with the lyrics.  And that intro gives me chills every time!  And the ending I believe is supposed to leave the listener with a feeling that the journey isn't finished.  The pinnacle is reached, but where do you then go from there?  What else is ahead?  Will the journey back down be just as treacherous as the climb? What surprises, setbacks and dangers might I find?  That's what I'm left with at the end.  The metaphor is powerful.

And with all of that, I also think we are seeing Mike Mangini at the height of his powers as a drummer.  His work on this is spectacular.

[Wim Kruithof]

I don't consider myself brilliant by any means, but I like to think I have above average intelligence. I have a bachelor's degree. For what that's worth. And there are few things in life that make me feel as stupid as I do when someone tries to explain time signatures to me.

Got a bachelor degree as well, but those time signatures are Chinese to me. So you're not alone... and glad to read I aint either.

[Wim Kruithof]

Since '21 I circle around on this forum and 95% of the time, it's on the 'official album' topics. It so nice reading all your thoughts and feelings, rather it's emotional or technical. I learn so much in here about Dream Theater, about music

and maybe even about life itself.

Wish I had you guys close by when I rode my bike with the 'anti-shock' discman in my pocket, grewing up as a kid. And wish I knew Dream Theater back then.

[jimgolf]

I've really liked this album since its release. It's interesting because this album I thought was fantastic, but the tour felt lacking in energy. Now with the Portnoy return, I feel the two singles are fine, but maybe not as strong as I was hoping for - the tour however is FULL of excitement and energy.

Answering the Call/Sleeping Giant/Transcending Time/ Awaken the Master are my standout tracks (which is a lot - maybe personal fav song is Transcending Time?).

Just a word on the title track; I really think most of the song is great. In fact, I would go as far as to say I think the first 12 minutes are brilliant. The intro with Mangini's drums are some of his finest work along with the Labrie's vocals in the intro verses and the slow section.

I don't think it falls apart after that, but the ending of the song doesn't quite feel as strong. My real grip comes with the ending line "buiiiildss a life of legacy.." and then how the song changes musically. It feels like the song should've had some ending vocal note held out or some soaring string synths with a  Petrucci solo to fade out the song, but instead Labrie sings a lower note on "legacy" that is relatively short and then the music changes to this slow chugging outro that just kind of..meanders until it ends.

It might sound somewhat nitpicky, but I enjoy the song so much up until that part and it kind of ruins the finale of the song and holds it back from being a great epic track.

At times it has felt like the Mangini era of DT has struggled in writing an epic or outta to certain songs. I've always wondered if that is just a real strength in Mike Portnoy's writing or musical ear that he guided the band to a fantastic finale in DT music because the epics in Portnoy era DT are beautifully written with some incredible finales.

Needless to say I am very excited for The Shadow Man Incident.

I've also grown on The Alien. I still wouldn't say it's a standout track, but there are some things it does that I love. The complex drums by Mangini are incredible and the guitar solos by Petrucci are amazing(in fact, I think this song has a better "epic" outro than the title track). The instrumental section is really solid as well and I dig hearing some very nice Myung bass work.

Invisible Monster is an okay single; not anything great or bad. Overall, I think this is a very strong Dream Theater album that has held up over the last few years and serves as a nice send off for Mike Mangini, who was fantastic drummer and person for the band over the last 14 years.

I would say the album is a solid 8.5/10. That is just a notch down from Distance Over Time, which I thought was the best album from the Mangini era and a 9/10.

I really don't buy into the idea that the band is lazy because they aren't innovating their sound. They have a sound that they've enjoyed writing with and the music over the last two albums is great. Something doesn't have to innovate to be great - if something sounds good, then it is good.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

On that subject matter, I've come to realize how much I prefer The Alien over Night Terror. For sure Night Terror has a "classic DT vibe" that works pretty well for its purposes, but The Alien is awesome for what it is and totally deserving of that Grammy. Virtuoso performance is one of the things that have always stood out from DT (like it or not) and The Alien really constructed over that foundation.