New DT Live Album/DVD?

[Adami]

I think it's really a matter of not being too forceful about it. If they say, "Let's make another 20 minute epic", that's no good. But if they start working on a song, and they're inspired and it grows and grows and grows and ends up being 25 minutes, then chances are, it'll really show.

Depends. If they just keep jamming, and dragging out section, or just keep going until it's a 25 minute epic then meh. It seems DT usually start with their epics (as MP have said) and it seems it's generally a result of their lack of ability to edit rather than some inspired muse.

[Implode]

Right. I'd image that at their level, it's harder to stop adding more.

[KevShmev]

I am also fine if the next albums don't have super long songs. We have plenty of them, and they lose their allure if they become commonplace.

Agreed.  As much as I love a band like The Flower Kings, the 25-minute song on their new album, while very good, is like, "Oh, another really long song."  Best to keep them somewhat to a minimum instead of doing all of the time, IMO.

Yea, but no one does 25+ minute epics like The Flower Kings do. They also have double the amount of songs that DT has. I thought their newest epic was amazing.

The only problem I have with DT's recent epics, is there's no big payoff. The last one was the ending climax of Octavarium, particularly the guitar solo, especially the reprise of the 'main' theme. I didn't feel like ITPOE or TCOT had a big payoff; though still amazing epics.

I don't think a big epic has to beat you over the head with a big grandiose ending to be great.  TFK's The Truth Will Set You Free ending is somewhat subtle (by prog rock standards), and I know you love that song way more than I do. 

For DT, when taking A Mind Beside Itself as a suite, the ending to that (The Silent Man) is very subdued and super awesome, IMO.  Meanwhile, I do think ITPOE does have a big ending, but I am not a fan of big chunks of that song, so the ending itself doesn't do a lot for me, simply because a payoff for what is to me an inconsistent song cannot always make up for the bumpy ride along the way.  I think The Count of Tuscany has a great ending; I just wish minutes 4-10 were better (they aren't bad; just merely good). 

[TheGreatPretender]

Depends. If they just keep jamming, and dragging out section, or just keep going until it's a 25 minute epic then meh. It seems DT usually start with their epics (as MP have said) and it seems it's generally a result of their lack of ability to edit rather than some inspired muse.

Well, I still consider Octavarium as much of a classic as A Change Of Seasons.

ITPOE, I consider 2 separate songs. That's the other thing, I'm pretty sure they split it because they felt like it was 2 songs, and not for the sheer sake of splitting it. So as far as I'm concerned, it is 2 songs.

TCOT is their only 20 minute long song that I'd say dragged on a little bit, in terms of not feeling extremely progressive like 8V or ACOS. So it's not like they've done a bunch of 20+ minute epics that I felt were boring or anything.

[chrisbDTM]

im pretty sure ITPOE was one song til they decided to bookend the album so it wouldnt be just like 8VM with the epic as the closer


if you watch the documentary when JP recorded his ending unison to pt. 1, im pretty sure JM's pt. 2 bass line starts to fade in

[Setlist Scotty]

im pretty sure ITPOE was one song til they decided to bookend the album so it wouldnt be just like 8VM with the epic as the closer

Correct.

[TheGreatPretender]

im pretty sure ITPOE was one song til they decided to bookend the album so it wouldnt be just like 8VM with the epic as the closer


if you watch the documentary when JP recorded his ending unison to pt. 1, im pretty sure JM's pt. 2 bass line starts to fade in

Yeah, I heard that part. I know it started out as one song, and then they split it. It's hard for me to say, because I listened to the album first, but even listening to it the way it segwayed on the documentary, it sounds like it's the beginning of a new song. Maybe they heard the same thing and decided to split it. I mean, let's face it, if you take it as one single song, then as Pt. 2 begins, the whole thing loses a LOT of its pacing. The beginning of Part 2 really sounds like an intro. So I think it completely made sense to split it.

[darkshade]

I am also fine if the next albums don't have super long songs. We have plenty of them, and they lose their allure if they become commonplace.

Agreed.  As much as I love a band like The Flower Kings, the 25-minute song on their new album, while very good, is like, "Oh, another really long song."  Best to keep them somewhat to a minimum instead of doing all of the time, IMO.

Yea, but no one does 25+ minute epics like The Flower Kings do. They also have double the amount of songs that DT has. I thought their newest epic was amazing.

The only problem I have with DT's recent epics, is there's no big payoff. The last one was the ending climax of Octavarium, particularly the guitar solo, especially the reprise of the 'main' theme. I didn't feel like ITPOE or TCOT had a big payoff; though still amazing epics.

I don't think a big epic has to beat you over the head with a big grandiose ending to be great.  TFK's The Truth Will Set You Free ending is somewhat subtle (by prog rock standards), and I know you love that song way more than I do. 

For DT, when taking A Mind Beside Itself as a suite, the ending to that (The Silent Man) is very subdued and super awesome, IMO.  Meanwhile, I do think ITPOE does have a big ending, but I am not a fan of big chunks of that song, so the ending itself doesn't do a lot for me, simply because a payoff for what is to me an inconsistent song cannot always make up for the bumpy ride along the way.  I think The Count of Tuscany has a great ending; I just wish minutes 4-10 were better (they aren't bad; just merely good).

The pay-off doesn't have to be in the ending, or grandiose. I think ACOS's payoff is somewhere in the middle or so, SDOIT during the end of Solitary Shell. As far as TFK, a lot of their payoff are at the ending anyway, and they are usually grandiose, but I agree about The Truth Will Set You Free.

I find AMBI more of a suite than anything. TCOT's ending iss fantastic, don't get me wrong, but as a whole, I feel like something is missing, and that's the big payoff. Maybe the spacey section is too long, and I forget where the song is going during it, I don't know... And with ITPOE, is that the ending close to hitting the payoff, but it's just a reprise of the beginning theme, but with vocals instead of lead guitar, and little variation (as opposed to Octavarium's reprise at the end).

[MoraWintersoul]

Maybe JP is tired of doing super long songs and is instead happy with doing songs that are, at max, 10-12 minutes long.

Prog fans: "10-12 minute tracks are not that long." 
I sent a PoS song over to someone the other night, and they said: "whoa, this lasts 8 minutes! If you want to get me hooked, pick something shorter." I mean, 8 minutes is not that fuckin' long.

To us. 

I'd have no problem if they kept up with writing epics, but epics only work if you have time to edit them. Just like ACOS evolved over the years (or as I assume it evolved, I don't know).

[TheGreatPretender]

Prog fans: "10-12 minute tracks are not that long." 
I sent a PoS song over to someone the other night, and they said: "whoa, this lasts 8 minutes! If you want to get me hooked, pick something shorter." I mean, 8 minutes is not that fuckin' long.

I brought the Score DVD to my friend's house, and he's heard some DT but mostly listens to stuff like Metallica. So after watching the DVD, sitting through SDOIT and Octavarium, he was pretty impressed, but I could tell he was exhausted, or overwhelmed, or whatever you'd call it. Then the encore came on (Metropolis) and I was like, "Don't worry, it's pretty short, only 10 minutes."  It wasn't until after it was done that it occurred to me that he might think that's actually long.

[countoftuscany42]

Interesting seeing everyone's opinions on the matter.  I love TCOT because BC&SL was my first DT album.  I think it has an incredible ending, far more satisfying to the ending of ACOS imo (not that i dont like the song, it is incredible!)
My feeling for why it should be on the dvd is that every other epic has had a release, and especially since there wasnt a release for BC&SL it feels appropriate.  if it were the time constraints i understand, and i know ill still love the dvd regardless, but im disappointed.  if it ends up on a ytsejam release that'll be great, but it doesn't feel the same to me.. who knows, maybe theyre just trying to throw us off

[Adami]

TCOT isn't my favorite song. In fact I think everything between the intro and the moody spacey solo is just downright mediocre, and of course I think the lyrics ruin the ending which would otherwise be superb.

That said, I do think the song deserves a good official DVD release. Especially since several of the songs they will likely put on the DVD have had live releases already.

[bosk1]

I think The Glass Prison should be shot for a DVD. Since they already played TROAE I hope others can be played too. I don't mind if they don't play This Dying Soul or The Shattered Fortress. But The Glass Prison and Repentance should be played.

Great song, but we already have two pretty good versions of it on official releases.  I'd rather have Misunderstood or a better version of The Great Debate.

[TheGreatPretender]

Great song, but we already have two pretty good versions of it on official releases.  I'd rather have Misunderstood or a better version of The Great Debate.

Two? Which one am I missing?

Also, big yes for Misunderstood, big no for the latter.

[Adami]

I'd love to see TGD. Aside from the cool hi hat stuff during the verses that Mangini will undoubtedly skip, I have a feeling his style would really handle that song well.

[bosk1]

Great song, but we already have two pretty good versions of it on official releases.  I'd rather have Misunderstood or a better version of The Great Debate.

Two? Which one am I missing?

Also, big yes for Misunderstood, big no for the latter.

Not sure which one you have, so it's hard to say which one you are missing.  But the two I am aware of (assuming I'm not missing any) are Gigantour and the Bucharest official bootleg.

[KevShmev]

Maybe JP is tired of doing super long songs and is instead happy with doing songs that are, at max, 10-12 minutes long.

Prog fans: "10-12 minute tracks are not that long." 

They aren't!  Just because a lot of people have short attention spans and are programmed to only enjoy songs that are four minutes long doesn't mean that a 10-minute song is long.  I get that those of us who regularly enjoy songs of that length are in the minority, but I think that says more about the majority, quite frankly, than it does about those of us in the minority.

[TheGreatPretender]

Not sure which one you have, so it's hard to say which one you are missing.  But the two I am aware of (assuming I'm not missing any) are Gigantour and the Bucharest official bootleg.

The bootleg is the one I'm missing. But thanks for letting me know that.

[Progmetty]

How long after the Argentina dates do you guys think we'll hear an announcement about the DVD? And when do you the release date would be? I hope it wouldn't be as late as Christmas although it would seem likely.

[MoraWintersoul]

It wasn't until after it was done that it occurred to me that he might think that's actually long.

But time flies when you're having fun! At the risk of sounding like a prog snob, it's them who are missing out.

Friend: "I don't understand how can you listen to hours of Dream Theater noodling?"
Me: "What's not to understand? It's awesome music. You play it. Hours pass."
Friend: "But who'd listen to a full song that's 23 minutes long?"
Me: "It's 23 minutes of awesome! You play it. 23 minutes pass."

Seeing how we all said TCOT will definitely be on the DVD, and it won't be - what else could we be mistaken about? 

[TheGreatPretender]

But time flies when you're having fun! At the risk of sounding like a prog snob, it's them who are missing out.

Friend: "I don't understand how can you listen to hours of Dream Theater noodling?"
Me: "What's not to understand? It's awesome music. You play it. Hours pass."
Friend: "But who'd listen to a full song that's 23 minutes long?"
Me: "It's 23 minutes of awesome! You play it. 23 minutes pass."

Seeing how we all said TCOT will definitely be on the DVD, and it won't be - what else could we be mistaken about? 

Well, to be fair, he didn't miss out, since he gladly sat through it.

But yeah, I think people just don't understand the concept. Like, when they hear the word "song" chances are, to them, it means:

Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Solo, Verse Chorus, Outro

Or some other similar variation. Whereas, if they hear "23 minute song," they probably think:

Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Solo, Verse Chorus, Outro All in the same format.

What they don't understand is that the music 'progresses' as it goes on. Hell, that's my whole definition of "Progressive music" something that changes throughout its course.
But even if you tried to explain that to them, they'd probably think, "Well, why isn't it just a bunch of separate songs then?"

[MoraWintersoul]

"Well, why isn't it just a bunch of separate songs then?"

"Well, why not one song?" I always say that

[TheGreatPretender]

"Well, why not one song?" I always say that

I guess it's just one of those things that you have to hear to truly understand. To tell people about it, they won't understand the concept. That's why I like talking about it to at least people who listened to stuff like King Crimson or something of the sort. They can understand at least, what the music is, even if the stuff they heard was from pretty much 2 generations back.

[Tomislav95]

To me, it's great to have song like Octavarium with theme reprise. It's like more songs but connected with one theme. I don't see difference between listening to 24-minutes long (great) song and 5 shorter songs.

[Jinx]

Sorry to go off topic from the Epics. What I would love on the new DVD (apart from specific songs and commentary) is a bit of JLB banter with the crowd.

On the Budokan DVD I know there was a slight language barrier but they played 2 songs, JLB spoke to the crowd for a bit then they ploughed through like 15 songs. I know for a fact that when you're there live there's more talking so it would be nice to see some on the DVD.

Ive watched the Budokan and Score shows with non-DT fans and by about half way they normally get burnt out. A bit of JLB in between provides a breather for the band and maybe even a bit of one for the audience (at the show and at home!)

An example is at the Wembley show where they were just about to start the acoustic bit and James alluded to the fact that they were gonna play this softer music yet he was wearing a shirt with a horrible skull on it. It just showed a more human side of DT instead of these superhuman guys who can play unbelievable music.

Anyway thats what I want! :-)

[Nekov]

Rest assured that this will happen. The Argentinian crowd loves to interact with the band members. 

[Scorpion]

Not sure which one you have, so it's hard to say which one you are missing.  But the two I am aware of (assuming I'm not missing any) are Gigantour and the Bucharest official bootleg.

The bootleg is the one I'm missing. But thanks for letting me know that.

This bootleg is one of the best one there is. It contains a fantastic version of Lines in the Sand and of The Killing Hand, which, imho, make the buy worthy alone.

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd really love a live version of Wither on the DVD.

[chrisbDTM]

i think i want a commentary more than any single song. id be pretty happy with whatever setlist they come up with

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

i think i want a commentary more than any single song. id be pretty happy with whatever setlist they come up with

Same here.  As I've said in the past, I'd like them to pull out a couple rarities - I feel that's what makes live recordings unique sometimes and kind of fun, but I'd love a commentary just to kind of hear the "feel" of the band without Mike.  I bet it'd be really interesting.

[bosk1]

Not sure which one you have, so it's hard to say which one you are missing.  But the two I am aware of (assuming I'm not missing any) are Gigantour and the Bucharest official bootleg.

The bootleg is the one I'm missing. But thanks for letting me know that.

This bootleg is one of the best one there is. It contains a fantastic version of Lines in the Sand and of The Killing Hand, which, imho, make the buy worthy alone.

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd really love a live version of Wither on the DVD.

Wow.  Since the Bucharest DVD is a show taken from the Six Degrees tour, and was released before Black Clouds came out, that's a nifty bit of time travel right there. 

[Scorpion]

Alright, I guess that I walking right into that one.

[Tomislav95]

Who is for Don't look past me?

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

Who is for Don't look past me?

That would be so awesome.

[KevShmev]

Don't Look Past Me would need some re-working, since some of the melodies are a bit clunky and odd, but I'd be okay with it under that scenario.

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

I really just want some FII outtakes.  But that won't happen.