New DT Live Album/DVD?

[MoraWintersoul]

Regarding the SDV performance, I'm a huge Kevin Moore fan but not a fanboy so I appreciate Jordan as well but IMO he should've stayed more faithful to the original version because it had never been played live before.

Agree with this completely.

@ TheGreatPretender:

CL: Back when they were doing the CD, the "Live Scenes from New York", I think Mike had asked you if you wanted to do "Space-Dye Vest" live and do two keyboards on "Learning to Live" I think. At least that's the word that got to me. Why did you not want to do that? And if he (Mike) asked in the future, now that you?ve worked in a kind of prog metal thing again, would you be interested?

KM: Well, the specifics of that I don't really know about, but he did ask me to play a show with them. I know what you're talking about. I don't know, it just doesn't sound like fun to play a ten-year old song to a bunch of people that already know it. For what? Just a cameo appearance? I don't even like it when I see other bands do it. "And now our old guitar player!" For one song. From Costa Rica to play that one song. It just seems silly. I really don't have anything musical to offer. It's not creative. It's not fun.

CL: Well, I think a lot of people see it as their favorite Dream Theater songs. And it's one of the only ones that has never been performed live.

KM: Well from that point of view? But from my point of view, think about it. Would you really want to do it?

CL: So, it just wasn't any sort of musical disagreement? It just was not worth all the effort?

KM: It's not about the effort, the traveling. I don't mind stuff like that. It's just gratuitous. There's nothing creative about it. There's nothing I'm going to learn. There's nothing I haven't experienced before. I've played that song millions of times for people. It's just going to be another time, and it doesn't sound like an interesting project. This (OSI) was an interesting project, to do something and have a lot of fun with it. I'm not interested in just going up on stage and doing the reunion, just for old time's sake.

CL: Basically, you're more excited about moving forward than nostalgia?

KM: Yeah.

If he wasn't interested then, I don't think he'd be interested now. I think Mike really approached Kevin the wrong way. He asked KM repeatedly to do something he's not interested in, and when Kevin said no, Mike criticized him in public. That's not really the right way to go about things - you can't assume that what would be interesting to you would be interesting to other people, and you can't take it personally when they tell you they're not interested, either.

I think he would be open (ha!) to do anything new with any of them. But this, I don't think so. I'd shit my pants if he did, though, but I totally understand why he doesn't find it appealing.

[chrisbDTM]

The samples add emotion to it. Representing a guy hopelessly drifting through the TV late at night after a break-up or something

Maybe they're TRYING to add emotion, but it doesn't come across to me at all. So as far as I'm concerned, it's butchered.

exactly how many times in one thread will you say that you dont like the samples?

[KevShmev]

Haha, I was wondering the same thing.

I thought the live cover they did last year was pretty good, although I also wish Rudess hadn't wanked it up a bit at times and stayed more true to the original, but we don't always get what we want, do we?

Also, the samples in Space Dye Vest are great.  They are there for a reason, and if you "get" the song, you "get" why they are there.  I don't mean that in a condescending way either.

[TheGreatPretender]

exactly how many times in one thread will you say that you dont like the samples?

Hey, all I said was that JR played it live and that I thought that version was better. People want to debate it, so I gladly oblige.

Also, the samples in Space Dye Vest are great.  They are there for a reason, and if you "get" the song, you "get" why they are there.  I don't mean that in a condescending way either.

I've said this time and again, I do get why they are there, I just think they horribly fail to do what they're supposed to. And again, this is primarily directed at that last batch of samples that includes Conan. Yes, I know why it's there, that doesn't change the fact that his annoying voice ruins the song for me.

And even if you argue that the samples are a part of the song, when JR played it live, they were not a part of the song, which made my listening experience of that particular performance much more enjoyable than the album version of the song.

[Adami]

I just don't get how a lack of about 5-10 seconds of stuff that annoy you makes it better when the REST of the song completely is devoid of emotion or narrative.

[KevShmev]

Why would someone argue that the samples are part of the song when they factually are?  In other words, why would someone argue that the samples are not a part of the original song when they factually are?

[TheGreatPretender]

I just don't get how a lack of about 5-10 seconds of stuff that annoy you makes it better when the REST of the song completely is devoid of emotion or narrative.

It still has lyrics and melody. That's all I need for a "narrative" in a song. I don't need a radio play in the middle of it. And again, you're exaggerating. Just because it didn't quite capture the emotion of the original, doesn't meant that it was COMPLETELY devoid of emotion. Frankly, I found the live performance to be great.

Why would someone argue that the samples are part of the song when they factually are?  In other words, why would someone argue that the samples are not a part of the original song when they factually are?

That's not what I said. I said that the samples were not a part of the live version of the song. And that made the live version of the song more enjoyable than the original for me.

[Adami]

I dunno. SDV had a lot of personality, and JRs version completely lacks the original personality and instead is grand.


And SDV isn't supposed to be grand or big.

[TheGreatPretender]

I dunno. SDV had a lot of personality, and JRs version completely lacks the original personality and instead is grand.


And SDV isn't supposed to be grand or big.

He reinterpreted it in his own style. There's nothing wrong with that. While I loved the actual compositions that Kevin Moore wrote--the actual melody from Wait For Sleep, or Space-Dye Vest--that's the only parts of those songs that I'm really attached to. If Jordan Rudess wants to take those melodies and play them his way, I'll enjoy it just as much (or in some cases more) as long as the actual main themes are still present.

[Adami]

He did indeed reinterpret it in his style. And I love changing covers as much as the next guy. But when you lose the original meaning of the song, then I consider it a bad cover. I liked the idea of it just being piano and vocals with no electronics, drums, guitars, or samples, but it was devoid of everything that made the original what it was and instead just became another generic JR piano song.

[TheGreatPretender]

He did indeed reinterpret it in his style. And I love changing covers as much as the next guy. But when you lose the original meaning of the song, then I consider it a bad cover. I liked the idea of it just being piano and vocals with no electronics, drums, guitars, or samples, but it was devoid of everything that made the original what it was and instead just became another generic JR piano song.

You're making it sound like the original was some sort of Holy Grail of emotional songs. Sure, Space-Dye Vest is one of DT's most unique songs, in that they've never done anything quite like it before or since, but I think some people put it on way too much of a pedestal because of it. Or maybe because it was Kevin Moore's 'swan song'. It's just a song. At it's core, a really good song. But to complain that you lose the original meaning of the song just because it's played differently is like complaining that the rock version of The Silent Man loses its original meaning. Of Wait For Sleep, when they played it on the Images and Words Live in Tokyo DVD. They added some meat to the song toward the end. And as much as I love the original, it was still awesome to see something different done with it.
And yeah, Space-Dye Vest might be a special case because it had never been played live before. But there was a chance that was going to remain that way anyway. But no, instead, JR decided to play it live after all, and I think people need to appreciate just that fact in itself. Maybe if they play it live with DT, they will stay more true to the original, but chances are, they'll trigger the samples then anyway, so it'll be a major disappointment for me.

[Adami]

My opinion of SDV isn't that it is a Holy Grail of emotional songs. It is not on a pedestal, nor does the fact that it's never been played live otherwise play into my opinion. I would hold the same of opinion of any cover song done like that. DT have never really been THAT emotional of a band, so with their songs there isn't usually a whole lot of emotion to maintain (with some exception), it's just that SDV became unique in that sense so it's a sad to see it join the ranks of another song just being seen as what notes to hit and when, as opposed to why.

I've never really been a fan of DTs versions of other cover songs either, oddly enough for the opposite reason, that they're never reinterpreted. But I've done a fair share of covers myself, and when I do I find a song that has a sound to it, and I try to cover it in my own style that also maintains the "message" of the original, which this one did not. I'm glad you love it and think it's better than the original (even if it's because of a different 5 seconds near the middle), but you're not going to convince me that it's great or even good. It's JR playing the same notes as KM, and adding way too many of his own, and just not playing the song the way it was supposed to sound. My opinion, but arguing with me isn't going to make me see any kind of light. Just like I don't expect you to change your opinion.

[chrisbDTM]

exactly how many times in one thread will you say that you dont like the samples?

Hey, all I said was that JR played it live and that I thought that version was better. People want to debate it, so I gladly oblige.

its almost as though you get personally offended when someone holds a differing opinion. in multiple threads you have repeated the exact same thing trying to beat it into those who disagree. we get it you dont like the samples, you dont like DT using backing tracks, etc. etc.

brahh

[TheGreatPretender]

its almost as though you get personally offended when someone holds a differing opinion. in multiple threads you have repeated the exact same thing trying to beat it into those who disagree. we get it you dont like the samples, you dont like DT using backing tracks, etc. etc.

brahh

I'm perfectly chill. This whole thing started because someone proposed the notion that they might play SDV on the DVD. And I said that's not impossible, since JR did play it live last year, and happened to add that I much preferred that version. If anything, I feel like people are constantly trying to drill into my head how much emotion those samples have in them. But by saying, "Those samples add emotion to the song" won't actually add the emotion to the song. I do feel like I constantly have to explain that the effect is completely lost on me and if anything, the samples actually distract me from the emotions that the piano is supposed to invoke, which is why I do prefer the live version.

[Perpetual Change]

I think you guys are making a bit too much out of the performance, honestly!

I mean, it's self-apparent that Jordan and James just wanted to have some fun by doing something different for the die-hard DT fans who'd come out. I don't think they were trying to recreate the studio version of the song, and with just the two of them they couldn't have anyway. Jordan's embellishments were obviously meant to fill in the gaps where the samples and various other instruments are supposed to be to keep the arrangement from sounding too "bare bones".  Not everything he did worked, but some it did. For example, I like that choral sound he used to replace John's fuzzy guitar drone.

If they really do play it again live, which I doubt, I'm sure it'll sound much different than the JR/JLB performance we have. I don't think it's really fair to take that performance as representative on how well or faithful to the original Dream Theater would be able to perform the song as a band.

[KevShmev]

Honestly, Rudess' live interpretation of Space Dye Vest is what he does what just about every pre-1999 DT song: he often adds more notes; it's what he does, like it or not.  And that is mainly why I often am not fan of newer live versions of old Dream Theater songs.  I mean, listen to The Mirror on LSFNY.  His obnoxious note-bending at the end of the song (prior to the Mirror reprise at the end of Lie that they played) completely ruined the entire vibe of that section, which is so heavy and badass, despite having zero soloing.  That is why, at this point, I really do not care if they ever do The Mirror and Lie back-to-back for a live DVD since I have zero confidence that the new live versions will be faithful to the originals without Rudess wanking them up like he did with The Mirror on LSFNY.  And that is a bummer because Rudess is a phenomenal player on so many levels, but that is like the one big chink in his armor, IMO.

[Scorpion]

I prefer Moore's more simplistic approach too, but I can still enjoy the songs if Rudess plays them, and I think that his style is perfect for the songs that DT have written since he joined the band.

Btw, happy belated birthday to you, Kev.

[TheGreatPretender]

Honestly, Rudess' live interpretation of Space Dye Vest is what he does what just about every pre-1999 DT song: he often adds more notes; it's what he does, like it or not.  And that is mainly why I often am not fan of newer live versions of old Dream Theater songs.  I mean, listen to The Mirror on LSFNY.  His obnoxious note-bending at the end of the song (prior to the Mirror reprise at the end of Lie that they played) completely ruined the entire vibe of that section, which is so heavy and badass, despite having zero soloing.  That is why, at this point, I really do not care if they ever do The Mirror and Lie back-to-back for a live DVD since I have zero confidence that the new live versions will be faithful to the originals without Rudess wanking them up like he did with The Mirror on LSFNY.  And that is a bummer because Rudess is a phenomenal player on so many levels, but that is like the one big chink in his armor, IMO.

I don't honestly get the point of being "faithful" to the originals when it comes to playing live. I mean, if you want to hear the original, listen to the album. The best thing about live shows is hearing those little variations of the different songs.

[Adami]

Honestly, Rudess' live interpretation of Space Dye Vest is what he does what just about every pre-1999 DT song: he often adds more notes; it's what he does, like it or not.  And that is mainly why I often am not fan of newer live versions of old Dream Theater songs.  I mean, listen to The Mirror on LSFNY.  His obnoxious note-bending at the end of the song (prior to the Mirror reprise at the end of Lie that they played) completely ruined the entire vibe of that section, which is so heavy and badass, despite having zero soloing.  That is why, at this point, I really do not care if they ever do The Mirror and Lie back-to-back for a live DVD since I have zero confidence that the new live versions will be faithful to the originals without Rudess wanking them up like he did with The Mirror on LSFNY.  And that is a bummer because Rudess is a phenomenal player on so many levels, but that is like the one big chink in his armor, IMO.

I don't honestly get the point of being "faithful" to the originals when it comes to playing live. I mean, if you want to hear the original, listen to the album. The best thing about live shows is hearing those little variations of the different songs.

I totally agree. But not every variation is a good thing by definition. Being different isn't automatically helpful. It also needs to be good.

[KevShmev]

Btw, happy belated birthday to you, Kev.

Hehe, thanks.

Honestly, Rudess' live interpretation of Space Dye Vest is what he does what just about every pre-1999 DT song: he often adds more notes; it's what he does, like it or not.  And that is mainly why I often am not fan of newer live versions of old Dream Theater songs.  I mean, listen to The Mirror on LSFNY.  His obnoxious note-bending at the end of the song (prior to the Mirror reprise at the end of Lie that they played) completely ruined the entire vibe of that section, which is so heavy and badass, despite having zero soloing.  That is why, at this point, I really do not care if they ever do The Mirror and Lie back-to-back for a live DVD since I have zero confidence that the new live versions will be faithful to the originals without Rudess wanking them up like he did with The Mirror on LSFNY.  And that is a bummer because Rudess is a phenomenal player on so many levels, but that is like the one big chink in his armor, IMO.

I don't honestly get the point of being "faithful" to the originals when it comes to playing live. I mean, if you want to hear the original, listen to the album. The best thing about live shows is hearing those little variations of the different songs.

I totally agree. But not every variation is a good thing by definition. Being different isn't automatically helpful. It also needs to be good.

Precisely.  And a lot of the time, everything else in the song IS faithful to the original, the exception Rudess making some of the keyboard parts "more busy" than they previously were.  And I am not talking about songs they extend live like Surrounded back in 2007 or the added solos at the end of Take the Time or anything like that.

[TheGreatPretender]

I totally agree. But not every variation is a good thing by definition. Being different isn't automatically helpful. It also needs to be good.

Yeah, but it's still interesting to hear something unique. I mean, I don't see the big deal in doing that at live shows. It's not like they re-recorded all the albums with JR doing his thing on the keyboards. But if you go to see them live, and you get a slightly augmented version of the original keyboards, I don't see that as such a fatal tragedy.

[Adami]

I totally agree. But not every variation is a good thing by definition. Being different isn't automatically helpful. It also needs to be good.

Yeah, but it's still interesting to hear something unique. I mean, I don't see the big deal in doing that at live shows. It's not like they re-recorded all the albums with JR doing his thing on the keyboards. But if you go to see them live, and you get a slightly augmented version of the original keyboards, I don't see that as such a fatal tragedy.

Hyperbole isn't helping. I am not making a big deal out of it, simply stating my opinion. Never said it was a big deal.


Also Kev, it's not just that he added in a ton of random fast runs, it's also that he banged the hell out of almost every note, when they're supposed to be played soft and delicate (and for a specific reason).

[TheGreatPretender]

Hyperbole isn't helping. I am not making a big deal out of it, simply stating my opinion. Never said it was a big deal.


Also Kev, it's not just that he added in a ton of random fast runs, it's also that he banged the hell out of almost every note, when they're supposed to be played soft and delicate (and for a specific reason).

Well, with every new band member, the band is going to change somewhat, that's pretty much inevitable. This is what Dream Theater is now. I'm not going to say that it was better or worse back when Kevin was around, but it is what it is now and I love it, and I'll certainly enjoy it for what it is.

[MoraWintersoul]

Jordan's embellishments were obviously meant to fill in the gaps where the samples and various other instruments are supposed to be to keep the arrangement from sounding too "bare bones".  Not everything he did worked, but some it did.

THIS. Die hard fan of that song, and I'd really like to hear it as it were originally played in the studio, but if they wanted to re-interpret it without the samples, this was an okay way to do it. Not the best there is, but I'm grateful they finally played it, and I'm grateful to the guy that filmed it and uploaded it on youtube so we could all see it (if you're reading this, you're awesome).

[robwebster]

Honestly, Rudess' live interpretation of Space Dye Vest is what he does what just about every pre-1999 DT song: he often adds more notes; it's what he does, like it or not.  And that is mainly why I often am not fan of newer live versions of old Dream Theater songs.  I mean, listen to The Mirror on LSFNY.  His obnoxious note-bending at the end of the song (prior to the Mirror reprise at the end of Lie that they played) completely ruined the entire vibe of that section, which is so heavy and badass, despite having zero soloing.  That is why, at this point, I really do not care if they ever do The Mirror and Lie back-to-back for a live DVD since I have zero confidence that the new live versions will be faithful to the originals without Rudess wanking them up like he did with The Mirror on LSFNY.  And that is a bummer because Rudess is a phenomenal player on so many levels, but that is like the one big chink in his armor, IMO.

Man. It must be the best part six years since I've seen anyone criticise JR's Mirror solo. That takes me back - that keyboard bit used to be the primary cause of hernias on DT.net.

Completely disagreed WRT Space-Dye Vest - it's a variation on the core theme which fills the space perfectly. The SDV piano line was never designed to be listened to in isolation, it needed changing, it needed more, and the change was fantastic. Well judged, tasteful, and while it was a different style from the original song, the heartbeat was very definitely the same. But then I never really agreed on the Mirror front, either, so I guess we were inevitably going to be at odds here. q:

I do not miss JR being DT's resident bogeyman. Opinions - great. But the amount of flack he used to get - levels of vitriol reserved for... well, for Mike Portnoy, nowadays. Never deserved it; Jordan's superb. Superb musician, good ear, so much more than just a flurry of notes. By all accounts a lovely guy, too. We're spoiled. Won't hear a word said against him - the best possible man for the job. For most jobs, actually. All hail.

[Adami]

Rob, did Blob accidentally sign in to your account? Your opinions and biases are well noted.

But I am not a JR hater. I love all of DTs keyboardist. JR is obviously the most talented and his playing on 6Degrees and ADTOE are just outstanding. However to say he maintained the mood of the original SDV perfectly is just wreaking of "JR can do no wrong, I love everything he does dammit!". It seems everyone is simply ignoring my argument about changing the sound and lacking any subtlety and instead only focusing on the extra notes he hit. Obviously the song needed some flourishment due to the lack of other instruments, but there's a way to play the exact same notes to maintain the emotion and feeling of the original that JR did not do. Obviously if you like his version better, more power to you. But to claim he maintained the same mood and atmosphere is just not right.


Rumby did a much better job articulating some of this stuff back when it originally posted. I doubt he's reading this, but if he is......help rumby one, you're my only hope.

[robwebster]

It's probably more that I'm fairly drunk, right now. Couple too many Long Island iced teas. Thought I'd have been asleep before now. Never drink and post.

And I'm gonna take that advice, now, and stop, cos I'm probably making a fool of myself. If I were to post though, it'd probably be three paragraphs of rambly bollocks barely disguised as pithy observations, followed up with a neutral, diplomatic non-conclusion to the effect of "vive la difference." Italicised like that, too. With a couple too many exclamation marks.

I'll do it in the morning. Or not respond at all, actually, cos I've evidently managed to come across as a bit of a bulldozer in the space of a single post, which is usually the right time to step back. Sorry, kids.

[orcus116]

I would've preferred LaBrie sounding a little more into it than notes from Rudess. Everything from the tone of his voice to his demeanor on stage indicated that he was bored out of his mind.

[MoraWintersoul]

I would've preferred LaBrie sounding a little more into it than notes from Rudess. Everything from the tone of his voice to his demeanor on stage indicated that he was bored out of his mind.

As for the tone of his voice, the performance was pretty much by-the-book SDV, subdued, restrained and "hollow"-sounding. Just the way it should be. And the demeanor - I don't think he would have done the song if he were bored by it, nor say those words he said in the beginning. JLB's not dishonest. Maybe you're just getting the wrong vibe.

[orcus116]

I don't think so. There's the whole downer vibe to the song but he just looked disinterested. There's a few spots where he just cuts the end of a lyric off and just kinda looks around as if he's not really into it. Just not a great performance.

[MoraWintersoul]

I don't think so. There's the whole downer vibe to the song but he just looked disinterested. There's a few spots where he just cuts the end of a lyric off and just kinda looks around as if he's not really into it. Just not a great performance.

Maybe I need to re-watch it, but I honestly hadn't noticed anything that gave me a James-is-bored-vibe.

[Perpetual Change]

Jordan's always been most well-known for being an improv player, and lots of times that's what he brings to the band. As Rob stated, SDV was never meant to be carried by just piano and vocals. Jordan did what he could to fill out the sound, and some people didn't like it while others did. That's all there is too it. I can't help but lol at some of the exaggerations I'm seeing here: "he butchered it!", "no! the original was already butchered!" 

Can't we just agree that neither of them are "butcherings" and be done with it? 

[ResultsMayVary]

Jordan's always been most well-known for being an improv player, and lots of times that's what he brings to the band. As Rob stated, SDV was never meant to be carried by just piano and vocals. Jordan did what he could to fill out the sound, and some people didn't like it while others did. That's all there is too it. I can't help but lol at some of the exaggerations I'm seeing here: "he butchered it!", "no! the original was already butchered!" 

Can't we just agree that neither of them are "butcherings" and be done with it? 

This. Dear God, people. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I can SAY the original wasn't butchered... But can I mean it?

[darkshade]

So guys, how about that, um..... new DT live album?