The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[Ben_Jamin]

Look, Mike can speak for himself, but I respectfully think you're missing my point. There is more to being a musician than hitting 8,470 paradiddles per second.  There are countless interviews where Mike has talked about the things he's learned, the things he does better, as a musician (and bandmate), and the things he's worked on.  They just don't happen to be the things that Mangini seems to excel at.

I don't know how old you are, but I can certainly remember there were countless kids that could play Eruption, but put them in a band, or put them with a real drummer, and they were lost. 

Would this relate to being in a band long-term, especially being a founding member, and developing a sound/style central to the bands sound and style. And being a session musician not really being free to be able to branch out your sound/style enough to have a repertoire of a specific style/tone?


Portnoy has a specific style that was known because he was in a long-term band like Dream Theater, able to freely do what he chose in his own drum world. Mangini, before DT, was more well known for certain styles in his different bands, and also how he developed his own techniques to acquire the ability to hit the drums as fast as he could.

I think this does have an effect on both drummers own strengths and abilities. To put it in a bit of perspective, what if Portnoy were to play the Extreme songs, or the Vai songs (Fire Garden Suite) Mangini played on, I bet there would be people not liking his drumming style for those songs.

[Ben_Jamin]

Sorry, I know I'm not a part of your conversation but I feel like I can chime in for a bit. Speed and rudiments are part of technicality, sure, but they're not the whole story. As you very precisely state, there is more to being a musician than hitting 8.470 paradiddles a second (I teach at a Conservatory, so I might know a thing or two about this) but the very best of musicians, rock, jazz or classical alike, are usually in a constant state of exploration, of development, refinement of technique and expansion of creativity. This usually involves going out constantly of your comfort zone and  learning to do things with your instrument or your craft you didn't know how to before, and that usually involves relearning things and developing new techniques. Sometimes from scratch. Portnoy hit a ceiling, technically speaking, during the first half of the 2000s and he hasn't looked back since, as stated by the man himself. It's difficult to do what your brain wants to do if your body won't respond the way you want it or need it to, unless you really don't see the need to do so.

Mike Portnoy has grown as a person, sure, has grown as a band member and as a leader as I very well agree with you, but I don't think recording 30 albums with different bands will make you grow as a musician when most of these albums are basically exploring the thing you already do great over and over again. I love Flying Colors, I love Neal Morse (although I do feel has put out the same album over and over again except from the last one, ironically his first without MP after a while), I enjoy The Winery Dogs and I think Sons of Apollo were cool, but none of these musical outputs challenged Portnoy in any way musically speaking. He just did the thing he already did greatly over and over again.

Makes sense to me, since he also had projects where his comfort zone was challenged and it effected his involvement. OSI is a great example, he didn't enjoy the way his drums were being utilized in context with the music, but also the rest of the band wished he would've gone out of his comfort zone a bit, which led to him being not regarded for the other albums.

But MP is not your average drummer either. He has admitted to having OCD, and I could only imagine trying to work against that comfort zone. Especially when you need to be constantly in that sort of motion. Which I think it was a good thing he was able to form all those musical projects, not only for giving us fans the opportunities to continue to hear his drumming, but also for his own sanity as well.

For me, it's bigger than MP as a drummer than it is MP being a music fan. He is involved in so many different aspects of being in a band, I respect that about him as a person, where the heart of a fellow music fan is the fire that burns his musical passion.


I also have loads of respect for Mangini. He brought a lot to the DT sound and style where the band continues what they learned with having an entirely different band environment than what they have been used to. That era gave me some of my favorite songs due to how Mangini fit into the pocket, specifically with how the rhythm section of Bass and Drums changed to fitting the pocket. There's sections in The Alien intro that are great examples of this, as well as Answering the Call. These are things I will miss about the Mangini era, but I am also glad to be able to witness the band live again, hopefully this fall...

[Ben_Jamin]

New Mike Mangini podcast lesson thing with Q&A. They cover a lot of topics from time management to form when playing drums, technique, old adages that can mess you up, breaking music down when starting to learn something, Berklee, and even how he prepared for Steve Vai's audition at 52:40 (also says a few things about how he prepared for the DT audition).

Man can this guy talk 
Every question he was asked got the how, why, long form short form, a life lesson, a joke and more. He seems like a super intense teacher who is passionate about helping students get from their point A to B.

https://youtu.be/2jrsICJ7tqw?si=NZpctoTs9InXXzog

Those are the best types of teachers, and I enjoy that he is providing these types of videos for the fans to enjoy.

[TAC]

Oh nice. 80 minutes though. I'll have to break this off in chunks.

Done!
Goddamn, my ears are tired. 

[Herrick]

Very technical, amazing drummer. He would have taken Dream Theater on a different path.

Would they have let Donati or anyone else take the band on a different path though? I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that Mangini wasn't really allowed to make any significant musical contributions until Distance Over Time and nothing on that album was too out there for Dream Theater.

[TAC]

Would they have let Donati or anyone else take the band on a different path though?

Thank you.

I was thinking this with the posts the other day about wishing this guy or that guy made it. Sure, perhaps the drum parts may have differed a little, but JR and JP had an open palette at their disposal, and I don't think Mangini was limiting in any way.

[macneil]

Not being a drummer, I'd never considered before that playing live with a click is actually much harder than playing without one, but that totally makes sense (at least for DT's style of music).

I do wonder why they were so set on the click track during Mangini's tenure. It obviously wasn't due to any limitation of Mangini and the reaction I've seen from most fans is they vastly prefer no click. I guess it was mainly a production decision. Unfortunately I think some fans unfairly attribute the use of the click (which they don't like) to Mangini, which is absolutely not the case.

[TheCountOfNYC]

As a fairly serious professional musician, I'll throw my two cents in on the whole "Mike Portnoy hasn't grown as a drummer in 20 years" debate. I play in three different cover bands and do local musical pit work. About 90% of my practice time is spent either learning new music, refreshing my memory on songs I haven't played in a while, or tightening up parts that I wasn't satisfied with my performance on at my last show. When you're that busy with different projects, your time is best spent making sure you have the parts down that you need to either record a song in studio or execute them live. Would I love to learn some new techniques to throw into my performance? Sure, but the reality is that if I took the time to do so, I'd be neglecting the things needed to do my job effectively.

Mike Portnoy is still a great drummer, but for some reason us prog fans get so caught up on the technical playing, ignoring the fact that a great song isn't defined by notes per second. Mike has written and recorded so much great music with so many different bands and projects during his time away from Dream Theater. Are you saying you wanted less music from him just so he could get slightly better at an instrument he's already great at? He maintains his current skill level, always making sure he has the parts down that he needs to have down, and that's the mark of a good musician.

Also, not for nothing, every drummer, hell every musician, has their signature parts that they use throughout their career. Nobody criticized Neil Peart for overusing his signature ride groove, but for some reason us Dream Theater fans criticize Mike Portnoy for reusing his signature grooves and fills, as if it's a bad thing for a professional musician to play parts that they're comfortable with to make sure it's executed cleanly. All of this to say, every day the lyrics to Never Enough age better and better, because I swear nobody hates Dream Theater more than Dream Theater fans do.

[nobloodyname]

Man can this guy talk 
Every question he was asked got the how, why, long form short form, a life lesson, a joke and more. He seems like a super intense teacher who is passionate about helping students get from their point A to B.

I can't listen to him anymore for that reason. And I say that as someone who, outside of this forum, is rather verbose.

Edit: oh, and it's clearly absurd for anyone to suggest Mangini needs a click track.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I do sometimes wonder how many people in the room would have been able to tell if Mike did not use a click. If someone has very good time it's difficult to tell especially in a live environment where there are other things going on.

Yes, there is no way the performances would have been as tight from minute one to minute 120 (especially in an age of mobile recordings where people can revisit it) but think about it. Would these same people *really* have been happier if he didn't use one and the band went out of time at certain spots unintentionally, or he sounded like he was speeding up randomly here and there? I highly doubt it. Then the complaints - which are like a snowball rolling downhill on social media - would have been about how they don't sound tight.

It's also a strange hill to die on for a band that makes the kind of music DT has been for 40 years. I get why a 1970s AC/DC show could be negatively impacted by a click but from day one I thought of DT as delivering a more technical perfected live experience - long way of saying I'm not sure why this became an issue only recently (I mean, I think I know why).

In any event, there are reasons to prefer or not prefer playing to it but I think many of the arguments about the click circulating online are misguided so I'm glad Mike cleared some things up. I think the energy on the 4th Wall dvd is phenomenal and I don't recall anyone complaining about that at the time. The same thing with Luna Park. It was a while ago but I really do not recall anyone who wasn't already consumed in the MP vs MM lament complaining that tour didn't feel enough like a hard rock show at CBGB. It really does feel like something that as the honeymoon wore off and more people found out about it, began to take on a life of its own.

[nobloodyname]

I can only speak for myself but the very first show I saw with Mangini, which also happened to be his first show in the band, felt less like a rock show than my last one with MP. That feeling increased over the years to the point where I couldn't be bothered to see them (also down to James' worsening vocals). Now, it's 100% unfair to put that at Mangini's feet. The click certainly didn't help but that was JP's choice after Mangini's initial suggestion (if I remember correctly from an interview a couple of years ago), and the setlists didn't help, either. JP's a great guitarist and beard grower, less so a setlist writer.

[Ben_Jamin]

I can't listen to him anymore for that reason. And I say that as someone who, outside of this forum, is rather verbose.

Edit: oh, and it's clearly absurd for anyone to suggest Mangini needs a click track.

Such an odd reason.

It's like someone not bothering to listen to Eddie Trunk because he talks to much. 😆

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I did sense a different energy from ADTOE tour vs. View tour. Some of that might be visual (very different set pieces), or age, and setlist. The setlist from the View tour was weird. I remember thinking why don't they just play the whole album? I think they left out Sleeping Giant, Transcending Time and maybe Answering the Call. The rest of the set list left much to be desired.

[nobloodyname]

Such an odd reason.

It's like someone not bothering to listen to Eddie Trunk because he talks to much. 😆

Fair

[Stadler]

I do sometimes wonder how many people in the room would have been able to tell if Mike did not use a click. If someone has very good time it's difficult to tell especially in a live environment where there are other things going on.

Yes, there is no way the performances would have been as tight from minute one to minute 120 (especially in an age of mobile recordings where people can revisit it) but think about it. Would these same people *really* have been happier if he didn't use one and the band went out of time at certain spots unintentionally, or he sounded like he was speeding up randomly here and there? I highly doubt it. Then the complaints - which are like a snowball rolling downhill on social media - would have been about how they don't sound tight.

Well, I say this respectfully, but clearly people DO notice, because this tour is getting that kind of response.  I know I can't go through concerts I've seen and say to you "this one, click, this one, click, this one, no click" etc., but I think it's something that ultimately can make a difference.  I would bet money, for example, that Temple Of The Dog didn't use one when I saw them in New York; their version of Achilles Last Stand was perhaps the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen (excluding Stairway at the Kennedy Center).  And one of the things that made it so powerful was that Matt Cameron was pushing and pulling the tempo throughout the whole song. You could FEEL it.  It's one of the best live experiences I've ever had.

It's also a strange hill to die on for a band that makes the kind of music DT has been for 40 years. I get why a 1970s AC/DC show could be negatively impacted by a click but from day one I thought of DT as delivering a more technical perfected live experience - long way of saying I'm not sure why this became an issue only recently (I mean, I think I know why).

Despite being vocal about having a preference, I too wonder why this is something new now.  But my answer is, I think there are people that intuitively "feel" a difference, and are latching on to an answer for that.  Kind of a harsh statement, but I stand by it. It's all personal preference, though; that YOU thought that is valid for you, but not for anyone else.  I don't see the disconnect; I can enjoy the technicality of the band AS THEY PLAY TOGETHER, as opposed to AS THEY PLAY TO A SET TEMPO.  Look, I get this is only my opinion, and therefore invalid, but with almost any band I listen to (live) what is key for me is the way the artists play TOGETHER. I've been in bands - and it's only happened a handful of times in my life - where you feel the players sort of going to a new level. It's hard to describe; it's locking into something and you lose yourself.  You forget where you are, what you're doing, what you're playing, and are just reacting to what the others around you are doing.  I LOVE that. That's what I get from music.  It doesn't always happen, as an audience member, you don't always feel it, but it's there.

It really does feel like something that as the honeymoon wore off and more people found out about it, began to take on a life of its own.

I think there is truth here. Doesn't make it any less valid, though.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, I say this respectfully, but clearly people DO notice, because this tour is getting that kind of response.

Not really.  They "notice" because they already know, because now it's a thing.  MP isn't playing live to a click (nor should he).  I wish we had gotten more live material with MM unencumbered by the click, but that's JP's doing.

Most of these "fans" can't tell if it's click/no click just from being in the crowd.  It's not that kind of thing, unless you can A/B compare.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Well, I say this respectfully, but clearly people DO notice, because this tour is getting that kind of response.  I know I can't go through concerts I've seen and say to you "this one, click, this one, click, this one, no click" etc., but I think it's something that ultimately can make a difference.  I would bet money, for example, that Temple Of The Dog didn't use one when I saw them in New York; their version of Achilles Last Stand was perhaps the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen (excluding Stairway at the Kennedy Center).  And one of the things that made it so powerful was that Matt Cameron was pushing and pulling the tempo throughout the whole song. You could FEEL it.  It's one of the best live experiences I've ever had.

Despite being vocal about having a preference, I too wonder why this is something new now.  But my answer is, I think there are people that intuitively "feel" a difference, and are latching on to an answer for that.  Kind of a harsh statement, but I stand by it. It's all personal preference, though; that YOU thought that is valid for you, but not for anyone else.  I don't see the disconnect; I can enjoy the technicality of the band AS THEY PLAY TOGETHER, as opposed to AS THEY PLAY TO A SET TEMPO.  Look, I get this is only my opinion, and therefore invalid, but with almost any band I listen to (live) what is key for me is the way the artists play TOGETHER. I've been in bands - and it's only happened a handful of times in my life - where you feel the players sort of going to a new level. It's hard to describe; it's locking into something and you lose yourself.  You forget where you are, what you're doing, what you're playing, and are just reacting to what the others around you are doing.  I LOVE that. That's what I get from music.  It doesn't always happen, as an audience member, you don't always feel it, but it's there.

I think there is truth here. Doesn't make it any less valid, though.

I'm not sure how much people notice this one thing as much as they're happier now (which as you might say is a multi factor equation) than they were before.

I have not seen the show yet but to be honest from the clips I saw I didn't notice some huge change in their behavior on stage. They also don't sound *that* different as this is a very polished group of musicians.

The weird thing is that the usual critiques of minor things like JLB came in at the wrong time, JP missed a few notes are all there. So it's interesting to see people still have a problem with those things yet when it comes to keeping solid time, it's now apparently become a negative thing. John needs to hit all 39k notes, James needs to come in at the right time (sort of ironic) but if the drummer unintentionally speeds up well that's how it's meant to be. I just think it's interesting is all.

[Stadler]

The weird thing is that the usual critiques of minor things like JLB came in at the wrong time, JP missed a few notes are all there. So it's interesting to see people still have a problem with those things yet when it comes to keeping solid time, it's now apparently become a negative thing. John needs to hit all 39k notes, James needs to come in at the right time (sort of ironic) but if the drummer unintentionally speeds up well that's how it's meant to be. I just think it's interesting is all.

Two things: one, I don't think it's unintentional at all.  That's the point.  It's part of the experience of watching humans make music.  But two, and this is just my opinion, that doesn't mean the Mangini/click thing is where they are wrong.  I personally DON'T CARE that James comes in late, IF he makes it musical, and I don't give a rat's ass if John misses a couple notes. 

I think McCartney's answer to "do you use a click" is the best: "We didn't need one; we had Ringo!". 

I just watched the DVD of the Elvis '68 Comeback Special.  For those that don't know, the actual special was aired in December, 1968 and was comprised of seven sources:  two sit-down sessions (Elvis in "black leather" with four other musicians with him) taped in late June, 1968, two stand-up sessions (Elvis in "black leather" by himself, with musicians off stage), a gospel production number (Elvis miming to pre-recorded music), the "Guitar Man" production number (Elvis miming to pre-recorded music), and the closing "If I Can Dream" number, which Elvis did four takes singing live to pre-recorded music.  The four black leather sessions - particularly the two sit-down ones, are a revelation. They are Elvis, LIVE. He's singing every note, and you can tell.  He stops mid-take. He stumbles the words.  He improvs lines.  But it gives me GOOSE BUMPS watching it, because it just shows how much this music runs through his veins.  He's living it, in real time, and he's having a blast doing what, up to that time, he largely did in his living room when his friends came over, or in a hotel room when on tour.  It was REAL. It was HUMAN, and it was an experience to watch. (And not to go too far in the other direction, his technique was amazing; when he DID sing, it was amazing the degree of control he had, and the ability he had to recreate the good parts; his singing was not random, or luck. You listen to the four complete takes of "If I Can Dream, and it's stunning how powerful a singer he was.)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Two things: one, I don't think it's unintentional at all.  That's the point.  It's part of the experience of watching humans make music.  But two, and this is just my opinion, that doesn't mean the Mangini/click thing is where they are wrong.  I personally DON'T CARE that James comes in late, IF he makes it musical, and I don't give a rat's ass if John misses a couple notes. 

I think McCartney's answer to "do you use a click" is the best: "We didn't need one; we had Ringo!". 

I just watched the DVD of the Elvis '68 Comeback Special.  For those that don't know, the actual special was aired in December, 1968 and was comprised of seven sources:  two sit-down sessions (Elvis in "black leather" with four other musicians with him) taped in late June, 1968, two stand-up sessions (Elvis in "black leather" by himself, with musicians off stage), a gospel production number (Elvis miming to pre-recorded music), the "Guitar Man" production number (Elvis miming to pre-recorded music), and the closing "If I Can Dream" number, which Elvis did four takes singing live to pre-recorded music.  The four black leather sessions - particularly the two sit-down ones, are a revelation. They are Elvis, LIVE. He's singing every note, and you can tell.  He stops mid-take. He stumbles the words.  He improvs lines.  But it gives me GOOSE BUMPS watching it, because it just shows how much this music runs through his veins.  He's living it, in real time, and he's having a blast doing what, up to that time, he largely did in his living room when his friends came over, or in a hotel room when on tour.  It was REAL. It was HUMAN, and it was an experience to watch. (And not to go too far in the other direction, his technique was amazing; when he DID sing, it was amazing the degree of control he had, and the ability he had to recreate the good parts; his singing was not random, or luck. You listen to the four complete takes of "If I Can Dream, and it's stunning how powerful a singer he was.)

Right but what you're describing with Elvis has never been considered a hallmark of great performance with JLB nor is this the type of thing any other band member is praised for (quite the opposite). You saw how the internet erupted when James was having his various issues. That was one of my points, DT as an experience has always been criticized and nitpicked due to lack of perfection.

[Adami]

Criticizing James for his performances is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

No one's criticizing whatever recent performance he messed up the timing. People seem to have laughed and smiled and cheered on.

But years and years of doing a poor job is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Criticizing James for his performances is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

No one's criticizing whatever recent performance he messed up the timing. People seem to have laughed and smiled and cheered on.

But years and years of doing a poor job is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

I never said JLB was being nitpicked, though I wouldn't be surprised if many thought that. There was certainly no shortage of excuses pouring in for him, blaming everything from iPhones to saying we're making unreasonable demands.

[Adami]

I never said JLB was being nitpicked, though I wouldn't be surprised if many thought that. There was certainly no shortage of excuses pouring in for him, blaming everything from iPhones to saying we're making unreasonable demands.

Fair. I guess I misread your post. But I also don't have many memories of of a majority of fans criticizing a lack of perfection. All I remember was people demanding perfection once MM joined the band and the performances leaned more toward recitals than rock shows. I remember people wanting imperfections and some people pushing against that, saying they didn't want imperfection. But I don't even remember THOSE people nitpicking a lack of perfection.

[Stadler]

Criticizing James for his performances is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

No one's criticizing whatever recent performance he messed up the timing. People seem to have laughed and smiled and cheered on.

But years and years of doing a poor job is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

Agreed; I can take lack of perfection, I can take a cracked voice, I can take a different melody, I can take a late cue... the one thing that bugs me is the pitchiness. That's not "nitpicking perfection".  On any given night, you should know your instrument and what it can (or can't) do.

[Stadler]

Right but what you're describing with Elvis has never been considered a hallmark of great performance with JLB nor is this the type of thing any other band member is praised for (quite the opposite). You saw how the internet erupted when James was having his various issues. That was one of my points, DT as an experience has always been criticized and nitpicked due to lack of perfection.

Well, I was using Elvis as analogy for the band, not just James, and my point was more about the "intentionality" of some of this stuff.  Being able to play your instrument is a part of this, certainly.  And DT - like Iron Maiden and Rush before them - were very good about bridging the two sides of the equation.  Instrumental capability and the excitement/unpredictability of a live rock show. 

[Kocak]

Man, this is exactly where I stand with MP as a drummer nowadays. I really don't resonate very much with his "I don't connect much with the super technical stuff anymore" persona because he was once, in the prog metal world, one of the icons (if not, *the* icon) for "technical" drumming. Hence the whole "instructional" videos bonanza that were, curiously, the way DT got MANY fans (I know firsthand of many, many people who got into DT because of MP's Liquid Drum Theater video). He just got worked up with so many bands and projects that he stopped growing as a musician because we, as professional musicians who make a living either out of producing, playing or composing, need to constantly perfect our crafts because competition is fierce. The other alternative is to brand your lack of study and musical growth as part of your "sound", which is exactly the thing MP did. Luckily, for him, he already was very comfortable in a throne won for him for all those early years in Dream Theater camp (I'm not saying he hasn't put the work into his career. All the work he's done is admirable, and apparently so is his work ethic according to people like Neal Morse. I'm strictly speaking in the perfecting of the craft).

Don't get me wrong, as I've expressed already in different points, I'm very glad the reunion happened and they're all killing it in the 40th Anniversary Tour, but MP is still the same drummer he was back when he left. His 20+ albums and tours during the separation didn't exactly do much for him in that regard. Does he need to keep pushing at this late stage of his career? I really don't think he does, but one of the things I respect the most out of MM's tenure is that he really pushed DT to new territory, technically speaking. It's a shame we probably won't get to listen to songs like Outcry again because I really can't see MP pulling them off in a convincing way.

This is exactly what I mean. It is his choice to do so. I obviously see what he has achieved over the course of his career and he has been able to make a living out of music, so it has worked for him. I genuinely view this as a personal choice, but I often wonder what he would have made of himself had he gone the other route and kept on developing as a musician and reinvented his drumming, like Peart did.

He has often said that he longed for arena success and his tenure with A7X gave him a taste of that. I reckon, you'd have to be a different kind of drummer to sustain that sort of appeal to the masses. (A much larger mass than he currently commands, that is.) He tried many different things and I reckon, despite not being the commercial successes he hoped they would be, Adrenaline Mob and The Winery Dogs are a better fit for the kind of drummer Portnoy is today.

On the topic of many bands and projects, he desperately tried to find a new home for himself. He often described almost every new project as his "main band"/"main focus" or "not a side project". None of them worked, really. So, at some point, I think, it became a matter of quantity over quality for him - whether he'd ever admit that or not, is another question entirely.

On a side note, I think the failure of Sons of Apollo was the final straw for him and he decided that he wanted to go back to Dream Theater before he was too old to do so.

Look, Mike can speak for himself, but I respectfully think you're missing my point. There is more to being a musician than hitting 8,470 paradiddles per second.  There are countless interviews where Mike has talked about the things he's learned, the things he does better, as a musician (and bandmate), and the things he's worked on.  They just don't happen to be the things that Mangini seems to excel at.

I don't know how old you are, but I can certainly remember there were countless kids that could play Eruption, but put them in a band, or put them with a real drummer, and they were lost. 

I don't think I am missing your point. I don't need to be reminded that my view of his musical abilities is a subjective one. I am not talking about the other aspects of being a musician, I am purely commenting on his instrumental ability and the extent of it. From my point of view, he has found his comfort zone and decided against any sort of improvement or further exploration, which is a matter of personal choice. I also think that he has regressed as a drummer, which is normal given his age and the physical toll that drumming takes on one and this is just the way I see things.

As the marketing guru that he is, he has done a very successful job of packaging his unwillingness to develop further as being about the feel and the groove.

While doing so, he has decided to continue existing in the progressive world by surrounding himself with immensely creative talent who is or was willing to work with him at any given point of time. And credit where it's due, this is a genius way of sustaining your spot within a certain corner of the musical world - building the brand that is Mike Portnoy, while cultivating a network around himself, pure genius. Some of these musical "collaborations" panned out, some didn't, not for the lack of trying though.

I see that he has mellowed out in terms of his standing and role within Dream Theater and he can go with the flow now, but that is not what I was talking about at all.

Portnoy hit a ceiling, technically speaking, during the first half of the 2000s and he hasn't looked back since, as stated by the man himself. It's difficult to do what your brain wants to do if your body won't respond the way you want it or need it to, unless you really don't see the need to do so.

Precisely. His approach to the instrument remained the same ever since, but the musical world moved on and Dream Theater's musical character has always involved the incorporation of outside influences. I'd argue that during his first tenure with the band, Portnoy has been the musical connection of Dream Theater to the outside world. There was an interview in which he stated that the only band that Petrucci has ever introduced him to is Muse. They have known eachother since 1985 and just one band. The other members of Dream Theater were not as musically expansive as Portnoy, he was the one with multiple iPod's in his bag. The issue that I see with this is that if you want to bring modern influences into your music and the modern abilities and sensibilities are miles ahead of you, what you do just sounds like a cheap imitation.

Portnoy's drumming stopped being interesting in the early-2000's. He found his comfort zone and the larger world of music around him continued to explore new ground.

But this is what I'm saying: It's HIS music.  He can say whatever the hell HE wants to about it, and by default, HE'S RIGHT.  If he wants to take himself out of the "Best Technical Drummer" competition, IT'S HIS MUSIC.  He can do that. 

I think some of you seem to have this fixation on one particular representation of music, and seem to think it's the be all and end all.

It is his music, it is his choice, but this is the Internet and specifically, a forum, so, I still have my own opinion on his music and his choices.

He does not need to cater his music to me. I can simply not listen to it.

I get what you mean and you are saying that we should not criticise him based on what he doesn't want to be, but hey, I'm just a guy with a keyboard and a screen, so why not. My opinions won't have an effect on his life.

This reminded me of a question asked at the Animals As Leaders meet & greet a few months ago. The question was something along the lines of "how do you practice on tour and how does touring affect your playing" and Matt Gartska (drummer for AAL, and I think one of the best around) basically said that while on tour you get into "tour shape" were you get really good at playing the material you're performing every night and sort of go into auto-pilot. When you get home though you'll notice your other skills have suffered and you have to build them back up.

I think with MP constantly playing and touring he is really good at being MP, meaning performing the material he is comfortable with. I just don't think he challenges himself as much anymore and it comes through with his playing and writing. Don't get me wrong, he is still an incredible drummer but he isn't treading new ground, and to be completely fair, he doesn't have if he doesn't want to.

What a great little anecdote, sums up the touring experience. I am an Audio Engineer, I wear different hats while at work. I go on tour, I record in studios, I do forensic audio and all of these require a different mindset.

Am I the only one who thinks MP actually upped his game on Parasomnia?

Just to be able to reply to your post, I listened to Parasomnia again - and no, he did not up his game for this particular album, not even a little bit.

What I take away from that post, aside from how classy MM was, is that it didn't seem like it was a fun, loose, rock show. That kind of complexity and pressure makes living in the moment very difficult. Not just for MM but all of them. The shows they're playing now have a completely different feel. They all needed a break from that dynamic.

I recently got back from a 6-month long tour with a band, same setlist every night. As their front of house engineer, I can tell you that it gets boring, for everyone involved. The thing is though, no matter how sick of the songs I was, I gave it my all for the audience. There's nothing better than seeing children in awe, getting into the music or a seasoned fan just in the groove of things, singing his heart out.

However, having been a part of production crews for many years now, I do understand the rationale behind using click tracks and playing the same setlist every night. From a crew standpoint, click tracks do make our jobs easier. Live shows are never just about the artist, obviously people come for them, but there's a lot more to consider.

I actually agree with you that the James conversation is a different one. I don't think MP was being hypocritical back then demanding he fix his performances. I think he did the right thing. There was a serious competency question, which has never been the case with MP.

What I am trying to say vis a vis JLB is that MP can tell him to get his act together or even decide to replace him with someone else, but given how he has decided to stay in his comfort zone, I think it would have been fair game if the other members were to question his abilities and say "I don't think you can keep up anymore, we are dumbing down our music for you, go work on your skills." How would he have taken that?

Would this relate to being in a band long-term, especially being a founding member, and developing a sound/style central to the bands sound and style. And being a session musician not really being free to be able to branch out your sound/style enough to have a repertoire of a specific style/tone?


Portnoy has a specific style that was known because he was in a long-term band like Dream Theater, able to freely do what he chose in his own drum world. Mangini, before DT, was more well known for certain styles in his different bands, and also how he developed his own techniques to acquire the ability to hit the drums as fast as he could.

I think this does have an effect on both drummers own strengths and abilities. To put it in a bit of perspective, what if Portnoy were to play the Extreme songs, or the Vai songs (Fire Garden Suite) Mangini played on, I bet there would be people not liking his drumming style for those songs.

Despite being introduced as a band member, I reckon Mangini was closer to a session musician, in terms of his role within the band. I don't think he had any say in the way things were run, which is fine, if that's how they decided to do things.

Would they have let Donati or anyone else take the band on a different path though? I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that Mangini wasn't really allowed to make any significant musical contributions until Distance Over Time and nothing on that album was too out there for Dream Theater.

I think, it's all about what Mangini was willing to accept and what the band (specifically Petrucci) was willing to give him in terms of creative freedom.

I don't think that the other drummers that auditioned would have the same dynamic as Mangini. Some would have left the band before the ADTOE sessions if the band were to tell them that they were being excluded from the writing sessions.

If the band were to be willing to work with him and grant him the necessary creative freedom, Donati or the others could have done some interesting stuff with the band. 

As stated by Portnoy, Petrucci was unwilling to share production credits for Parasomnia, so it is my belief that he would have clashed with any other drummer with a stronger personality.

Are you saying you wanted less music from him just so he could get slightly better at an instrument he's already great at?

Given the subjectively mediocre musical output, my answer to this would be yes. It'll always be quality over quantity for me.

The weird thing is that the usual critiques of minor things like JLB came in at the wrong time, JP missed a few notes are all there. So it's interesting to see people still have a problem with those things yet when it comes to keeping solid time, it's now apparently become a negative thing. John needs to hit all 39k notes, James needs to come in at the right time (sort of ironic) but if the drummer unintentionally speeds up well that's how it's meant to be. I just think it's interesting is all.

Funnily enough, many artists do not want their drummer to speed up or slow down and not being able to keep a consisent beat is actually a fairly common reason for firing a drummer.

Criticizing James for his performances is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

No one's criticizing whatever recent performance he messed up the timing. People seem to have laughed and smiled and cheered on.

But years and years of doing a poor job is not nitpicking due to a lack of perfection.

This is correct, but the golden rule of live performances with vocals is that you should not kill the vocalist. And given that the vocals are always an afterthought for Dream Theater, they have done a terrible job of giving James the consideration he needs, which has worsened his condition. A good example of this is Tool, they always let Maynard have the final say in terms of setlists.

[Adami]

Has anyone in DT grown much in the last however many years? I haven't heard much new from any of them. Myung sounds exactly the same as he did before Portnoy left. So does Ruddess. So does JP. I'm not sure what exciting new abilities and techniques these people are showing.

[Kocak]

Has anyone in DT grown much in the last however many years? I haven't heard much new from any of them. Myung sounds exactly the same as he did before Portnoy left. So does Ruddess. So does JP. I'm not sure what exciting new abilities and techniques these people are showing.

They haven't, not even a little bit. Dream Theater is like the ACDC of progressive metal in that regard.

[nobloodyname]

Has anyone in DT grown much in the last however many years? I haven't heard much new from any of them. Myung sounds exactly the same as he did before Portnoy left. So does Ruddess. So does JP. I'm not sure what exciting new abilities and techniques these people are showing.

It's not as if JP is now busting out Tosin Abasi moves.

[Kyo]

This is really getting sidetracked because of silly comments about Mangini "playing 276,861 paradiddles per second" that narrow things down to numbers and technical aspects. The problem with Portnoy's playing is not that it's no longer "technical", whatever that even means. The problem is that he's frequently repeating ideas he's used before. This was not really an issue on the earlier albums - technical aspects aside, Mike's playing was always very creative. You didn't have people complaining about hearing his "tool kit" over and over again back when Six Degrees came out because he clearly spent a lot of time developing his parts beyond the obvious first thought. But these days the message from the band is "when something sounded familiar, we embraced that because that's just who we are".

So the technical aspect isn't really the issue. It's about creativity.

And to bring things at least somewhat back on track (this is actually the Mangini thread!), the nice thing about Mike Mangini was that he always seemed to be looking for something fresh to play. Sure, maybe 10-15 years later he would've ended up sounding just as repetitive. But he certainly never got to that point during his time in DT and that was always a treat for me as a listener. In fact, he sounded unshackled at last and more creative than ever on his last album with them.

[Stadler]

I don't think I am missing your point. I don't need to be reminded that my view of his musical abilities is a subjective one. I am not talking about the other aspects of being a musician, I am purely commenting on his instrumental ability and the extent of it. From my point of view, he has found his comfort zone and decided against any sort of improvement or further exploration, which is a matter of personal choice. I also think that he has regressed as a drummer, which is normal given his age and the physical toll that drumming takes on one and this is just the way I see things.

AND

It is his music, it is his choice, but this is the Internet and specifically, a forum, so, I still have my own opinion on his music and his choices.

He does not need to cater his music to me. I can simply not listen to it.

Well, exactly, to the last point, but to the two previous ones, I guess I disagree.  "Opinions" I guess, but I don't believe EVERYTHING is subject to public opinion.   You're rating a guy, judging a guy, on a game that HE'S not participating in. That sounds unfair to me.

I don't know what your personal situation is (and don't care to; so I'm not asking), but it's the equivalent of me saying "you've stagnated as a human being because you aren't continually sleeping with new people every weekend". If you've decided to be monogamous, or asexual, then my opinion - that you should be judged by the degree to which you continue to sleep with people - is absurd, and maybe even offensive.
 

I get what you mean and you are saying that we should not criticise him based on what he doesn't want to be, but hey, I'm just a guy with a keyboard and a screen, so why not. My opinions won't have an effect on his life.

Actually, you don't know that. He reads this place. He does touch in with popular opinion.  I don't know; maybe its a me thing, but I think there's a boundary on what I can or should voice my opinion on.  I can't stop my thoughts, but I can control what I put out in the real world.  I'm not telling you what to do, that's on you, but there are people, including perhaps some of the people you're opining about, that consider this a matter of respect.

Funnily enough, many artists do not want their drummer to speed up or slow down and not being able to keep a consisent beat is actually a fairly common reason for firing a drummer.

There's a difference between playing with the tempo - making that a part of the performance - and "not being able to keep a constant beat".  John Bonham was the master at this.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know; maybe its a me thing, but I think there's a boundary on what I can or should voice my opinion on.

I agree, but that boundary doesn't include what he's known for.  He's a professional drummer, we're allowed to talk about his drumming.  Family/personal stuff is outside the line, but if his drumming is too, what are we here for?

I've never noticed you being reticent to share your opinions about NFL players' football skills or talents or NFL coaches and their coaching acumen.  What's the difference?

[Kocak]

Well, exactly, to the last point, but to the two previous ones, I guess I disagree.  "Opinions" I guess, but I don't believe EVERYTHING is subject to public opinion.   You're rating a guy, judging a guy, on a game that HE'S not participating in. That sounds unfair to me.

I don't know what your personal situation is (and don't care to; so I'm not asking), but it's the equivalent of me saying "you've stagnated as a human being because you aren't continually sleeping with new people every weekend". If you've decided to be monogamous, or asexual, then my opinion - that you should be judged by the degree to which you continue to sleep with people - is absurd, and maybe even offensive.

My boundary is personal stuff. I'd never comment on family matters etc. I don't care about MP's physical appearance. But when it comes to music, it's out there for fans to judge, that includes how fans perceive the performance and the music itself.

None of the DT albums that I own came with a "Do not talk about this album or those who made it" warning.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Kocak,

"Funnily enough, many artists do not want their drummer to speed up or slow down and not being able to keep a consisent beat is actually a fairly common reason for firing a drummer."

I agree with you on that 1000%. Funnily enough this clip of Simon Phillips appeared in my YT recently where he talks about the importance of accuracy and keeping time in getting booked (at least in the past). Keeping solid time is just a core tenet of good musicianship regardless of your instrument - it's kind of funny to hear it become a bad thing in the context of this whole debate.

https://youtube.com/shorts/AYKW5YnMVMI?si=HAnqRf7LE0NLp3Jh

[TheCountOfNYC]

And to bring things at least somewhat back on track (this is actually the Mangini thread!), the nice thing about Mike Mangini was that he always seemed to be looking for something fresh to play. Sure, maybe 10-15 years later he would've ended up sounding just as repetitive. But he certainly never got to that point during his time in DT and that was always a treat for me as a listener. In fact, he sounded unshackled at last and more creative than ever on his last album with them.

So MM does have similar ideas that he reuses in his parts, but because of his style of matching what the other instruments are doing, his parts don't jump out at you in the same way that MP's parts do.

[Kocak]

Kocak,

"Funnily enough, many artists do not want their drummer to speed up or slow down and not being able to keep a consisent beat is actually a fairly common reason for firing a drummer."

I agree with you on that 1000%. Funnily enough this clip of Simon Phillips appeared in my YT recently where he talks about the importance of accuracy and keeping time in getting booked (at least in the past). Keeping solid time is just a core tenet of good musicianship regardless of your instrument - it's kind of funny to hear it become a bad thing in the context of this whole debate.

https://youtube.com/shorts/AYKW5YnMVMI?si=HAnqRf7LE0NLp3Jh

There's a reason why some drummers and in demand as session drummers. This all comes down to personal preference, but I love it when the musicians make my job easier for recording and editing. I have been doing this for 15 years now and I witnessed a number of re-do's. Both in the form of bringing the same musician in and getting someone else entirely and scrapping the previous session. (I get paid either way.)

When artists and/or producers ask me for session musician suggestions, I have my go-to people. I know that they can deliver and won't embarrass me when I vouch them.