The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Couldn't be more off base. I've said at LEAST 10 times that I'm not stopping you from saying ANYTHING. I don't have the power, nor the desire to do so.  You guys all seem to want your precious fucking opinions because they're so sacred, regardless of the impact on others, and you have them. I would argue for you if someone told you to stop.  But that doesn't mean I have to believe they're harmless or meaningless. And it also doesn't mean that I don't get my own opinion: and that is, I feel that when you criticize an artist for a component of their art that they are purposefully NOT incorporating (here the technical advancement), it's disrespectful.  What you do with that is on you. Post away, my good man, post away.

I think a lot of us are criticizing lack of creativity, not lack of technical facility. Are we allowed to do that that or is that also denigrating MP since he is playing what he wants? (And yes it is a matter of 'allowed to' since denigrating band members is against the rules of the forum)

[Rob24]

How in the ever living world can I be the only person who sees how incredibly toxic some of you people are behaving on a daily basis, now even ganging up on Stadler for daring to speak up against a never ending flood of blatantly irrational humbug, lying, manipulating, insulting, all while facing no consequences whatsoever and being supported by hef who is condoning and adding to this type of behavior?

What is wrong with you?

[BeatriceNB]

I personally don't like what MP plays nor the way he does it. In the first three DT albums I think he was great and had cool ideas.

I started loving DT because of Mangini, and he's, to me, the perfect drummer (even though my favourite is the other MM: Marco Minnemann). So, of course -and unsurprisingly-, I prefer that kind of technical and precise approach.
In a way, considering preceding drummers like Neil Peart, Bill Bruford,  Tony Williams, Billy Cobham and Chad Wackerman, and contemporaries to MP like Simon Phillips, Gavin Harrison, Marco Minnemann, Mike Mangini or Virgil Donati, there's a huge discrepancy in the praise I see for Portnoy, and my perception of his playing. If you look at online polls, he wins "awards" over guys like Chris Allison, Matt Garstka, Matt Halpern, Jay Postones, Ray Hearne... I don't understand it.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I personally don't like what MP plays nor the way he does it. In the first three DT albums I think he was great and had cool ideas.

I started loving DT because of Mangini, and he's, to me, the perfect drummer (even though my favourite is the other MM: Marco Minnemann). So, of course -and unsurprisingly-, I prefer that kind of technical and precise approach.
In a way, considering preceding drummers like Neil Peart, Bill Bruford,  Tony Williams, Billy Cobham and Chad Wackerman, and contemporaries to MP like Simon Phillips, Gavin Harrison, Marco Minnemann, Mike Mangini or Virgil Donati, there's a huge discrepancy in the praise I see for Portnoy, and my perception of his playing. If you look at online polls, he wins "awards" over guys like Chris Allison, Matt Garstka, Matt Halpern, Jay Postones, Ray Hearne... I don't understand it.

A lot of awards are popularity contests and on that basis MP does beat nearly everyone.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't really have a list of "ten greatest Portnoy moments", I'm not that kind of listener,

Part of the disconnect here may be that prog metal fans largely ARE that kind of listener.  

You have often said you aren't a large fan of the genre, just Dream Theater.  So besides you just being an individual, you're an individual who may not be looking at this stuff the same way that most other DT fans are looking at it.

Just a thought that occurred to me.  It may not be valid.

[TAC]

If you look at online polls, he wins "awards" over guys like Chris Allison, Matt Garstka, Matt Halpern, Jay Postones, Ray Hearne... I don't understand it.

I have literally not heard of one of those guys.

[ReaperKK]

I have literally not heard of one of those guys.

Matt Garstka is the drummer from Animals As Leaders, I mention him about as much as Stadler mentions Gene Simmons because he is unreal. Ectogenesis

To be honest when I saw who MP was going up against I was kind of surprised he won.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Matt Garstka is the drummer from Animals As Leaders, I mention him about as much as Stadler mentions Gene Simmons because he is unreal. Ectogenesis

To be honest when I saw who MP was going up against I was kind of surprised he won.

Mike Portnoy is arguably the most influential prog drummer still alive today, and he just returned to Dream Theater and recorded a new album so there's a lot of hype around him. I would have been surprised if he DIDN'T win.

[gzarruk]

Mike Portnoy is arguably the most influential prog drummer still alive today, and he just returned to Dream Theater and recorded a new album so there's a lot of hype around him. I would have been surprised if he DIDN'T win.

A lot of awards are popularity contests and on that basis MP does beat nearly everyone.

This pretty much sums it up.

Again, this isn't a dig at Mike P. I'm quite happy for him as he finally got back to DT and seems to have mellowed a lot from his past control freak behaviors, it's just that the current scene has evolved so much that there's just not contest between him and some of the other guys listed here the last couple posts.

This discussion has turned ugly lately, so I don't want to dive back too much into it, and I'm not even going to talk about MM or DT here, but there's no world where current day Portnoy is objectively better drumming wise* than people like Garstka, Donati, Lang or Minnemann, to name just a few. Most of the hype around him lately is just one big nostalgia trip. And I loved Parasomnia, btw. Would also catch DT live as fast as I could if I had the chance to (here's hoping it happens for the fall US tour).

*Just talking about drumming and not arranging, producing, etc.

[Stadler]

Part of the disconnect here may be that prog metal fans largely ARE that kind of listener. 

You have often said you aren't a large fan of the genre, just Dream Theater.  So besides you just being an individual, you're an individual who may not be looking at this stuff the same way that most other DT fans are looking at it.

Just a thought that occurred to me.  It may not be valid.

It's 100% valid.  I think you have a good point; but that works both ways.  I'm probably missing out on some things others are keying on, and I'm probably seeing some things that others aren't.  Not for me to call which is which.

[Stadler]

I think a lot of us are criticizing lack of creativity, not lack of technical facility. Are we allowed to do that that or is that also denigrating MP since he is playing what he wants? (And yes it is a matter of 'allowed to' since denigrating band members is against the rules of the forum)

First, whether you're "allowed" to do anything isn't my call, and isn't what I'm trying to get across. If a mod - and I am NOT a mod - have a problem, they'll tell you.  I want to be clear: I am NOT telling anyone what to say or not.

I think that's a distinction without a difference in this thread, honestly. It might be a bit fuzzier, but again, what does the ARTIST consider "creative"? To the extent that the creativity is reflected in additional technique(s) I think it's the same problem. I'm not hearing from any of you that you're willing to consider that Mike could be expanding his creativity in other ways. It seems like "creativity" is limited to new and as-yet-unheard of combinations of drum strikes.  I know it's just me, and I don't expect anyone to share this, but one of the top five more "creative" moments in the catalogue (Mike's catalogue, that is) is the drum part to "The Storm", and the creativity is really just a shift in accents (I'm talking about the chorus; the way the drums underscore the lyric - the storm rolling in, and washing away pain... I think that's just a sublime musical moment).

Again, it's not about me here, but it IS about what Mike is attempting to do with his music, not what WE might want him to do with his music.

[BeatriceNB]

I have literally not heard of one of those guys.

Drummers for Plini, Animals As Leaders, Periphery, TesseracT and Haken, respectively.

[TAC]

Drummers for Plini, Animals As Leaders, Periphery, TesseracT and Haken, respectively.

Thank you.

[gzarruk]

[TAC]

Just started watching this, but it looks like a really nice interview..

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Just started watching this, but it looks like a really nice interview..

Great interview. They talk about how the Alien came to be during the View writing sessions (23:00), Mike's chemistry with Steve Vai (29:30), and many other things including new courses, educational topics, Extreme, drummers and credits for writing (21:25)

[wizard]

Thank you to Mr Mangini, for his contribution to the Dream Theater's work.

I'm very late. After his departure, Mike Mangini recorded an album with several musiciens. But after this album, what did he does?

[Schurftkut]

Thank you to Mr Mangini, for his contribution to the Dream Theater's work.

I'm very late. After his departure, Mike Mangini recorded an album with several musiciens. But after this album, what did he does?

teaching, and his new band is dropping a single in a few days!

[wizard]

Schurftkut wrote :

"His new band is dropping a single in a few days!"

Do you talk about the band Mangini?

[Kocak]

Schurftkut wrote :

"His new band is dropping a single in a few days!"

Do you talk about the band Mangini?

[hefdaddy42]

Schurftkut wrote :

"His new band is dropping a single in a few days!"

Do you talk about the band Mangini?

No, his NEW band.  Monolith, I think is the name.

[Dream Team]

In summary, I believe that 95% of the average metal listeners wouldn't notice the difference between MP and MM in a blind test, in either case they would hear two VERY busy, very heavy drummers. A lot is being made of small differences. I'm happy MP is back, but I feel MM's contributions have been massively underrated.

[Kocak]

but I feel MM's contributions have been massively underrated.

It should also be noted, repeatedly, that MM's contributions were massively fucked over by horrible production choices.

[Stadler]

In summary, I believe that 95% of the average metal listeners wouldn't notice the difference between MP and MM in a blind test, in either case they would hear two VERY busy, very heavy drummers. A lot is being made of small differences. I'm happy MP is back, but I feel MM's contributions have been massively underrated.

Depends on what you rate, doesn't it?

That statement seems to imply that if you were "knowledgeable" or "educated" or "smart" or whatever distinction you want to make between the enlightened and the 95%, you'd "know" the difference.  Well, I DO notice the difference, now, and I have my preferences.  I don't consider myself any less than any of the people that go gaga over Mangini's playing.  I see it for what it is - incredibly technically advanced - and yet it doesn't move me much.  Oh well. I can't really control my feelings, you know?

[emtee]

In summary, I believe that 95% of the average metal listeners wouldn't notice the difference between MP and MM in a blind test, in either case they would hear two VERY busy, very heavy drummers. A lot is being made of small differences. I'm happy MP is back, but I feel MM's contributions have been massively underrated.

I see it as an individual choice. Some people rank those albums, or at least some of them, as top tier while others don't. Same with MP's output. I don't see it as a collective metric.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

In summary, I believe that 95% of the average metal listeners wouldn't notice the difference between MP and MM in a blind test, in either case they would hear two VERY busy, very heavy drummers. A lot is being made of small differences. I'm happy MP is back, but I feel MM's contributions have been massively underrated.

You're probably right though I would frame it as 95% of the general audience. Some would be able to hear a difference but probably not much of one or be able to explain what it is. I think that's more of a function of most people not focusing on drums when they're listening. Most of us are tuning into the vocal melody or the guitar reflexively.

I don't think the differences are minute though. I think they're major.

[Adami]

You're probably right though I would frame it as 95% of the general audience. Some would be able to hear a difference but probably not much of one or be able to explain what it is. I think that's more of a function of most people not focusing on drums when they're listening. Most of us are tuning into the vocal melody or the guitar reflexively.

I don't think the differences are minute though. I think they're major.

Indeed. I can't even hear much overlap between the two, but I'm a drummer. I'd very easily be able to tell them apart, even if I can't necessarily pick MM out of a lineup.

[Dream Team]

Depends on what you rate, doesn't it?

That statement seems to imply that if you were "knowledgeable" or "educated" or "smart" or whatever distinction you want to make between the enlightened and the 95%, you'd "know" the difference.  Well, I DO notice the difference, now, and I have my preferences.  I don't consider myself any less than any of the people that go gaga over Mangini's playing.  I see it for what it is - incredibly technically advanced - and yet it doesn't move me much.  Oh well. I can't really control my feelings, you know?

I wasn't singling you out my friend  . I'm thinking of the "average" metal listener wearing an AC/DC or Metallica t-shirt, kind of like Beavis & Butthead.

[dualpalmpilots]

Finished reading "Lifting Shadows" yesterday for the first time, the revised version. I am so glad MP is back in the band, and he seems to have grown a lot over the years, but doggone, man. In addition to being a great drummer, Mangini was a great dude. It was so clear in the book. His presence helped the band carry on, and probably made sure Portnoy had a band to come back to.

Grateful DT has had both of these guys behind the kit. What a special band we get to enjoy!

[Herrick]

Finished reading "Lifting Shadows" yesterday for the first time, the revised version. I am so glad MP is back in the band, and he seems to have grown a lot over the years, but doggone, man. In addition to being a great drummer, Mangini was a great dude. It was so clear in the book. His presence helped the band carry on, and probably made sure Portnoy had a band to come back to.

Grateful DT has had both of these guys behind the kit. What a special band we get to enjoy!

Wait, there's an updated version of Lifting Shadows?

[TAC]

Wait, there's an updated version of Lifting Shadows?

Yeah, what? And up until what date does it go up to?

[dualpalmpilots]

It was the revised and updated one from years ago. It goes right up the release of ADTOE. Mangini just seemed so thrilled to be there and I dug his quotes in the book.

[Herrick]

I see. Too bad there's no ebook version. I retired from physical books in 2017.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The most recent version is from the ADTOE era no?

[Herrick]

The most recent version is from the ADTOE era no?

I didn't even know it was updated at all. I thought there was only one edition that came out.