The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[Stadler]

I agree, but that boundary doesn't include what he's known for.  He's a professional drummer, we're allowed to talk about his drumming.  Family/personal stuff is outside the line, but if his drumming is too, what are we here for?

I've never noticed you being reticent to share your opinions about NFL players' football skills or talents or NFL coaches and their coaching acumen.  What's the difference?

Because we're not really talking about his drumming. We're talking about his personal choice and mental approach to drumming.   Difference.  You mentioned football: Kurt Warner played a year or so for the Giants, at the start of the Eli era, and he knowingly and willingly took a different role than he had with the "Greatest Show on Turf" years with the Rams.  I would never in a million years knock Kurt Warner for the choice he knowingly and willingly made, and I would never compare his numbers with the Giants to the peak years with the Rams, because I KNOW that wasn't where he was focusing his efforts.

Musically, Gene Simmons is another example.  Is he a great bass player?  I think he is, but the consensus - aided by Rick Neilson's throwaway comment that "he sucks" - is that he sucks.  He has been consistent for 40 years that that's not his thing.  His job is to ENTERTAIN you, not play Jaco Pastorius runs on an eight string double-neck bass.  I think it's disrespectful to hold him to a standard he has unequivocally said he's not working to. 

Contrast that with, if Mike said "I'm still top five prog drummers, and I very much keep up with the Jones'", then it's fair to say he's not.  Again with Kiss; Paul Stanley has repeatedly said that if he can't do it to the level he's accustomed to, he would call it a day; the consensus - and I agree, I've seen it - is that the last show of Kiss was about five years after Paul's self-proclaimed end date.  That's a fair criticism, because PAUL set the standard.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

So MM does have similar ideas that he reuses in his parts, but because of his style of matching what the other instruments are doing, his parts don't jump out at you in the same way that MP's parts do.

Everyone has similar ideas that appear and pop up again and again. JP as well. Mangini is no exception to this incredibly common trait.

What we're talking about with MP is a bit different in a few ways, though.

[hefdaddy42]

Because we're not really talking about his drumming. We're talking about his personal choice and mental approach to drumming.  Difference.  You mentioned football: Kurt Warner played a year or so for the Giants, at the start of the Eli era, and he knowingly and willingly took a different role than he had with the "Greatest Show on Turf" years with the Rams.  I would never in a million years knock Kurt Warner for the choice he knowingly and willingly made, and I would never compare his numbers with the Giants to the peak years with the Rams, because I KNOW that wasn't where he was focusing his efforts.

Musically, Gene Simmons is another example.  Is he a great bass player?  I think he is, but the consensus - aided by Rick Neilson's throwaway comment that "he sucks" - is that he sucks.  He has been consistent for 40 years that that's not his thing.  His job is to ENTERTAIN you, not play Jaco Pastorius runs on an eight string double-neck bass.  I think it's disrespectful to hold him to a standard he has unequivocally said he's not working to. 

Contrast that with, if Mike said "I'm still top five prog drummers, and I very much keep up with the Jones'", then it's fair to say he's not.  Again with Kiss; Paul Stanley has repeatedly said that if he can't do it to the level he's accustomed to, he would call it a day; the consensus - and I agree, I've seen it - is that the last show of Kiss was about five years after Paul's self-proclaimed end date.  That's a fair criticism, because PAUL set the standard.

Nah

[Stadler]

My boundary is personal stuff. I'd never comment on family matters etc. I don't care about MP's physical appearance. But when it comes to music, it's out there for fans to judge, that includes how fans perceive the performance and the music itself.

None of the DT albums that I own came with a "Do not talk about this album or those who made it" warning.

Of course not.  "Because you can" doesn't mean "because you should". Again, I'm not telling you what to do. If you want to talk about it, I can't and won't stop you. I believe you risk being disrespectful and offending the people you're talking about, but that's not for me to say either, and I know that. (You don't participate in P/R, but if you did, you'd know that I am a staunch advocate of personal liberty.  I might be telling you it's inadvisable, or logically inconsistent to say it, but I would also fight to the death for your right to say it.)

I just think it's something to think hard about; are we holding someone to a standard that they themselves aren't working to.  How would you like it if that was you? 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Stadler is very happy about the drummer change so I get why he's now reluctant to get into opinions about Mike P's drumming unless it's to the positive. Definitely not shy about his opinions on a lot of other people's performance outside of this, as was pointed out.

[Kocak]

Of course not.  "Because you can" doesn't mean "because you should". Again, I'm not telling you what to do. If you want to talk about it, I can't and won't stop you. I believe you risk being disrespectful and offending the people you're talking about, but that's not for me to say either, and I know that. (You don't participate in P/R, but if you did, you'd know that I am a staunch advocate of personal liberty.  I might be telling you it's inadvisable, or logically inconsistent to say it, but I would also fight to the death for your right to say it.)

I just think it's something to think hard about; are we holding someone to a standard that they themselves aren't working to.  How would you like it if that was you? 

I can, and I will.

People can hold me to any standard they wish, I am a staunch advocate of such an approach.

[Stadler]

Stadler is very happy about the drummer change so I get why he's now reluctant to get into opinions about Mike P's drumming unless it's to the positive. Definitely not shy about his opinions on a lot of other people's performance outside of this, as was pointed out.

Wow, okay.  How did this get about me?  This isn't about "positive" or "negative", it's about being fair.  Find me one - just one - criticism of any artist I don't like that's inconsistent with this position or that is unfair.  I'll wait. 

I do not like Radiohead's music and I make no bones about that. But I've always been very clear that it's MY taste. I've never once criticized Thom Yorke for a standard that HE'S EXPRESSLY said he's not working to.  Same with any other artist I don't care for.  Haken; their music doesn't work for me, yet I've gone out of my way to say nice things about them, because even though I don't like the music, I have respect for them and their art.  I don't need to rip down either one to justify my not liking what they produce.

Even Mangini; not my favorite drummer, but where he's earned praise, I've given it to him, and my criticisms are limited to what HE HIMSELF has said he hoped to bring to the table. I make the "8,600 paradiddle" joke often, but HE HIMSELF has put himself in speed runs or competitions. It's something that he himself holds up with pride.  (It's also a backhanded complement; most drummers can't do what he does, so the joke never even applies).

Look, complain all you want, but with the caveat that I am human and make mistakes, I'm not suggesting you all do anything that I don't do myself on a daily basis.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Wow, okay.  How did this get about me?  This isn't about "positive" or "negative", it's about being fair.  Find me one - just one - criticism of any artist I don't like that's inconsistent with this position or that is unfair.  I'll wait. 

I do not like Radiohead's music and I make no bones about that. But I've always been very clear that it's MY taste. I've never once criticized Thom Yorke for a standard that HE'S EXPRESSLY said he's not working to.  Same with any other artist I don't care for.  Haken; their music doesn't work for me, yet I've gone out of my way to say nice things about them, because even though I don't like the music, I have respect for them and their art.  I don't need to rip down either one to justify my not liking what they produce.

Even Mangini; not my favorite drummer, but where he's earned praise, I've given it to him, and my criticisms are limited to what HE HIMSELF has said he hoped to bring to the table. I make the "8,600 paradiddle" joke often, but HE HIMSELF has put himself in speed runs or competitions. It's something that he himself holds up with pride.  (It's also a backhanded complement; most drummers can't do what he does, so the joke never even applies).

Look, complain all you want, but with the caveat that I am human and make mistakes, I'm not suggesting you all do anything that I don't do myself on a daily basis.

You won't need to wait long. Your criticisms about MM - which you are 100% entitled to - consist of your general dislike for his approach to drums (fair) and very larrge exaggerations about his playing. You correctly note the paradiddle comment. I don't see how making hyperbolic comments about his playing fits into your insistence it's about being 'fair.' Nor do I see how that's not about being positive or negative. I don't even see how the speed competitons are remotely relevant to what he played in DT.

Again, it's a forum and you're entitled to say it. I just don't get why we aren't allowed to dissect MP's playing, which I've tried to do free from hyperbole.

[nobloodyname]

You think you don't do that with MP, BW?

[hefdaddy42]

How did this get about me?

You've kind of made it about you, a little bit.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

You think you don't do that with MP, BW?

No. If I have a criticism I've tried to support it with specifics and I think I've done a reasonable job at that. I haven't really said anything a hundred others haven't said over the years about MPs drumming - and that includes a lot of drummers and fans.

If there's a criticism I made you think is unfair I'm open to hearing what it is.

[TAC]

Kocak, I'm quoting you, not to argue or really disagree with you, but I think you've brought up some interesting thoughts and these are my thoughts upon them...

I genuinely view this as a personal choice, but I often wonder what he would have made of himself had he gone the other route and kept on developing as a musician and reinvented his drumming, like Peart did.

That's all great, but it didn't make Rush's albums any more interesting. In fact, Rush is a band that in my opinion regressed musically. Sure, the music all went in another direction, but if you compare anything post Moving pictures to Hemispheres, it just doesn't sound all that musically challenging.

While doing so, he has decided to continue existing in the progressive world by surrounding himself with immensely creative talent who is or was willing to work with him at any given point of time.

SOA, Adrenaline Mob, TWD....just don't strike me as "immensely creative".

On a side note, I think the failure of Sons of Apollo was the final straw for him and he decided that he wanted to go back to Dream Theater before he was too old to do so.

This is an interesting thought and one I can get on board with. Is this an informed opinion?

Portnoy's drumming stopped being interesting in the early-2000's.

To you, I guess. I have continued to find it interesting, though I haven't followed him outside of DT.

I just watched the DVD of the Elvis '68 Comeback Special. ...You listen to the four complete takes of "If I Can Dream, and it's stunning how powerful a singer he was.)

Elvis, Stads? Did you just go all Elvis on us??

[Kocak]

That's all great, but it didn't make Rush's albums any more interesting. In fact, Rush is a band that in my opinion regressed musically. Sure, the music all went in another direction, but if you compare anything post Moving pictures to Hemispheres, it just doesn't sound all that musically challenging.

Good point, I had not thought of Rush's albums after Peart's reinvention. I do not listen to Rush. I was genuinely only referring to the effort that he put in after a certain age to further develop his drumming. It's just that MP had talked about doing something similar, which is why I referred to Peart.

SOA, Adrenaline Mob, TWD....just don't strike me as "immensely creative".

The bands are not, true. Maybe I picked the wrong description: I wanted to refer to the individual talent of the musicians. The bands are just meh.

This is an interesting thought and one I can get on board with. Is this an informed opinion?

It is an educated guess, based on the statements by the band members themselves and how the band was received by the fans. They thought that their individual fanbase would follow them to SoA and further multiply, but that did not end up happening. Most prominently, Soto had a very honest interview about how the band felt after the first album cycle and then other band members followed.

To you, I guess. I have continued to find it interesting, though I haven't followed him outside of DT.

Yes, to me. I think I have made it rather clear that it is my opinion and my opinion only. I think though, your advantage is having followed his DT career, exclusively. If you add up the other projects, the output just becomes quantity over quality.

Kocak, I'm quoting you, not to argue or really disagree with you, but I think you've brought up some interesting thoughts and these are my thoughts upon them...

Feel free to disagree and argue, genuinely. As long as it is respectful, I welcome it, really.

[TAC]

I think though, your advantage is having followed his DT career, exclusively. If you add up the other projects, the output just becomes quantity over quality.

MP is my all time favorite drummer. He's the drummer in my dream band and all that. I remember when he left DT, I was bummed because the DT I knew and loved would be forever altered, and MP would probably pretty much disappear from my musical radar, which is exactly what happened. I don't really look at anything he did post DT disappointingly, other than I think that most of it sucks. lol
He was definitely fishing though, and in a way, I kind of felt bad for him.

Feel free to disagree and argue, genuinely. As long as it is respectful, I welcome it, really.

Well, there was nothing you stated that I outright disagreed with, but probably slight differences in tone and degree.
What I will say on the MP criticizing James thing is that MP was really just saying that James' performance was not up to snuff live. How MP approaches improving his own technique isn't really relevant. MP was prepared to play live. They all were, expect for James on occasion.
Although it seems like MP has always treated James as the red headed stepchild, and towards the end of his first run in DT, it probably pissed him off how much of his fortunes were tied directly to James.





As for your AC/DC comment...I've been mulling that one over all day.

[nobloodyname]

As for your AC/DC comment...I've been mulling that one over all day.

I think the observation is relative, of course, but I also thought it was crudely dismissive in an otherwise well expressed post.

[Stadler]

You won't need to wait long. Your criticisms about MM - which you are 100% entitled to - consist of your general dislike for his approach to drums (fair) and very larrge exaggerations about his playing. You correctly note the paradiddle comment. I don't see how making hyperbolic comments about his playing fits into your insistence it's about being 'fair.' Nor do I see how that's not about being positive or negative. I don't even see how the speed competitons are remotely relevant to what he played in DT.

Again, it's a forum and you're entitled to say it. I just don't get why we aren't allowed to dissect MP's playing, which I've tried to do free from hyperbole.

One, I'll say again, I'm not saying what you are or are not "allowed" to do, so stop saying that, please. 

I'm merely pointing out that there's an inequity in holding someone to a standard THEY THEMSELVES are not holding themselves to.

Two, I'm not sure how injecting a little levity into the proceedings - this isn't a trial, it's not 20/20 or Dateline, it's a couple of schmoes talking about music - results in my entire point being invalid, but if "8,700 paradiddles" bothers you so fucking much, I'll never say it again. Contrast my hyperbole - to make a point - with your being pedantic, and we're even. The speed competitions are cited as an event that are a function of PURE TECHNIQUE, and in fact, there isn't a place for "feel", "groove", or any of the other sort of "non-technique" aspects of playing an instrument in such an endeavor; in fact it's counter to that. There's no element of "being a good bandmate", or "playing for the song" (there IS no song), or "complementing the other players" in such an event. It's singular in its purpose.   Usain Bolt is (was?) the fastest man on the planet; he didn't kick a soccer ball or catch a football while doing so; it was pure speed. 

Three, I'll say again for the 100th time; it's not about DISSECTING PORTNOY'S PLAYING.  Do what thou wilt, but that ain't it.  It's about DENIGRATING his playing for not achieving a standard that he is EXPRESSLY NOT PLAYING TO.  If you can't see the difference in that, that's says a lot more than I thought.  It's like going to see Robin Williams in "Insomnia" or better yet, "One Hour Photo" and panning the movie on the grounds that "he wasn't funny enough". 

"Art" is about the artist's intent.  The ARTIST'S intent, not the consumer's wishes.

[Stadler]

You've kind of made it about you, a little bit.

Not sure how; I'm trying very consciously to make it about the two Mikes, only, and what they intend with their art. I've not said one thing disparaging about Kocak or Barstool.  In fact, I've tried to be complementary; it's not about them, it's about the thought line (criticizing an artist for not achieving a standard that he himself said he's consciously NOT playing to).

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

One, I'll say again, I'm not saying what you are or are not "allowed" to do, so stop saying that, please. 

I'm merely pointing out that there's an inequity in holding someone to a standard THEY THEMSELVES are not holding themselves to.

Two, I'm not sure how injecting a little levity into the proceedings - this isn't a trial, it's not 20/20 or Dateline, it's a couple of schmoes talking about music - results in my entire point being invalid, but if "8,700 paradiddles" bothers you so fucking much, I'll never say it again. Contrast my hyperbole - to make a point - with your being pedantic, and we're even. The speed competitions are cited as an event that are a function of PURE TECHNIQUE, and in fact, there isn't a place for "feel", "groove", or any of the other sort of "non-technique" aspects of playing an instrument in such an endeavor; in fact it's counter to that. There's no element of "being a good bandmate", or "playing for the song" (there IS no song), or "complementing the other players" in such an event. It's singular in its purpose.   Usain Bolt is (was?) the fastest man on the planet; he didn't kick a soccer ball or catch a football while doing so; it was pure speed. 

Three, I'll say again for the 100th time; it's not about DISSECTING PORTNOY'S PLAYING.  Do what thou wilt, but that ain't it.  It's about DENIGRATING his playing for not achieving a standard that he is EXPRESSLY NOT PLAYING TO.  If you can't see the difference in that, that's says a lot more than I thought.  It's like going to see Robin Williams in "Insomnia" or better yet, "One Hour Photo" and panning the movie on the grounds that "he wasn't funny enough". 

"Art" is about the artist's intent.  The ARTIST'S intent, not the consumer's wishes.

I don't have any problem with 'injecting levity.'. I personally try NOT to do that when I have voiced criticisms about MP's playing to avoid the risk of exactly what is happening here, but you do you.

"This isn't about "positive" or "negative", it's about being fair.  Find me one - just one - criticism of any artist I don't like that's inconsistent with this position or that is unfair."

Again, you are making extreme exaggerations about Mike M's playing and then attacking those exaggerations. That is the definition of unfair. You then go on to complain about the alleged inequity of holding MP to a standard he isn't holding himself to - and it appears to me this is effectively a way of telling everyone who has voiced a criticism about his drumming that we are just categorically out of bounds. That is not how art works. You put something out there to the public and you open yourself up for praise and criticism. Just because you didn't make some public statement/act about how you want to be judged doesn't mean judgements about your art are inequity.

The speed competition is so completely irrelevant to what Mike M played in DT it's basically just an excuse at this point for you to do exactly what I described above (fine by me) but then turn around and say we are "denigrating" MP (even if we are NOT hyperbolic, NOT using insults and providing examples) just by the mere act of criticizing something MP did not publicly say he would or would not do. It's pretty hypocritical in my view.

And hey, if you have an example of where Mike M just injected speed single strokes or played too many paradiddles into a DT song and it ruined the vibe I think we are all cool with hearing where specifically you think that happened. I may disagree but I wouldn't say you are denigrating the guy.

[Stadler]

Yes, to me. I think I have made it rather clear that it is my opinion and my opinion only. I think though, your advantage is having followed his DT career, exclusively. If you add up the other projects, the output just becomes quantity over quality.

HARD disagree.  Mike himself - he's the artist, he should know - has regularly cited "Similitude" as one of the best albums he's ever played on. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that he includes his work on that album.  It would be odd to praise the record, and slag his contributions.

I don't really have a list of "ten greatest Portnoy moments", I'm not that kind of listener, but there would be at least one Flying Colors moment on there ("The Storm"), at least one, maybe two Transatlantic moments ("My New World is one, "Stranger In Your Soul" another), and at least one, maybe two Neal Morse/NMB moments.  All of those may not qualify as Olympic level gymnastics on the drums, but all of them elevate the music to something much greater than what it would have been without.

Having said that, though I've heard them (and unfortunately own most of it) I have almost no interest in AMob, TWD, and SOA.

[Stadler]

I don't have any problem with 'injecting levity.'. I personally try NOT to do that when I have voiced criticisms about MP's playing to avoid the risk of exactly what is happening here, but you do you.

"This isn't about "positive" or "negative", it's about being fair.  Find me one - just one - criticism of any artist I don't like that's inconsistent with this position or that is unfair."

Again, you are making extreme exaggerations about Mike M's playing and then attacking those exaggerations. That is the definition of unfair.

No. I am attacking only one thing: judging an artist on a standard he is EXPLICITLY not working to.  I can't be clearer about that. 

And as for the stupid paradiddle comment; I made it ONCE in the last three pages, and this is the direct quote: "There is more to being a musician than hitting 8,470 paradiddles per second."  Read that to mean "there is more to being a musician than pure physical dexterity."   The standard, according to you and Kocak, is "physical dexterity", and as I've stated, Mike Portnoy has EXPLICITLY taken himself out of that arena.  You may not like that, you may think that's wrong, you may think that's disingenuous. Fair, though it's not for you to say what some other human is thinking and what some other human is striving for in their life.  I notice you are ignoring every one of my examples that highlight my point.

As I said; I won't use the paradiddle metaphor any longer since it seems to have gotten under your skin. I will say, though, that "there is more to being a musician than pure physical dexterity".  You of course, may be able to give your opinion on HOW a musician holds up to a particular standard, but I think it's unfair and disrespectful to hold an artist to a standard they have EXPLICITLY said they are not working to. That's the key part. Silly to compare David Gilmour or Eric "Slowhand" Clapton to Yngwie Malmsteen.  It's silly.  You can prefer one style to another, of course, but to say that Gilmour has "backslid" or "failed to advance his instrument" because he can't do some of the things that Yngwie can is ridiculous.

You then go on to complain about the alleged inequity of holding MP to a standard he isn't holding himself to - and it appears to me this is effectively a way of telling everyone who has voiced a criticism about his drumming that we are just categorically out of bounds. That is not how art works. You put something out there to the public and you open yourself up for praise and criticism. Just because you didn't make some public statement/act about how you want to be judged doesn't mean judgements about your art are inequity.

Now who's being hyperbolic?   I have been CRYSTAL clear on this point: I don't give a rat's ass about other criticisms.  I'm also not telling anyone what to do. Do what thou wilt.  I'm giving you MY OPINION that not all criticisms are fair, and I've highlighted ONE:  that criticizing a drummer (or any musician) for not achieving an arbitrary goal that YOU set and that they are NOT working towards is at best unfair, and at worst disrespectful. That's it. Anything else is you reading into things. 

The speed competition is so completely irrelevant to what Mike M played in DT it's basically just an excuse at this point for you to do exactly what I described above (fine by me) but then turn around and say we are "denigrating" MP (even if we are NOT hyperbolic, NOT using insults and providing examples) just by the mere act of criticizing something MP did not publicly say he would or would not do. It's pretty hypocritical in my view.

Again, it was a euphemism for physical dexterity as a measure of musical accomplishment.  It's also a standard that both YOU and Kocak have held up as being necessary or applicable, not me, as well as being a standard that Portnoy has said he's NOT working to at this point in his career.  I'm responding to what you wrote. 

And hey, if you have an example of where Mike M just injected speed single strokes or played too many paradiddles into a DT song and it ruined the vibe I think we are all cool with hearing where specifically you think that happened. I may disagree but I wouldn't say you are denigrating the guy.

Saying "I don't care for that style of playing" is NOT THE SAME as saying that someone has "backslid" in their playing because they didn't advance their technique when they said EXPLICITLY that that is not something they've made a priority in their playing.  I don't care what styles you like - not true; I am honestly interested in what people like and don't like, because all people are different.   That's why I'm here; I love seeing what jazzes people and what doesn't. But what I mean is, I would never EVER call you disrespectful for liking a style or not liking a style.  I would never call you disrespectful or unfair for not liking Mike's playing over the last 10 years.  IF that's all you said. But isn't; you had to go and try to objectively justify it by saying he's backslid, and he's not progressed his art and not advanced as a drummer.  I think that's unfair, since he has talked extensively about advancing his art and advancing as a drummer (and musician), it's just that those advancements were in ways that AREN'T "physical dexterity".   

I try to be very careful in my writing; I've written extensively that I don't care for a lot of Mangini's choices. I've also said he's undoubtedly a great drummer, just not for me. That's very different than saying he's stagnated or backslid or failed to progress because he didn't make the changes I wanted to see in his playing.  If Mike Mangini - nor Mike Portnoy for that matter - is happy with their playing, they shouldn't change even one goddamn thing for me (or any fan, for that matter).

Look, I can only say this so many ways.  You know my position.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Nothing is under my skin, as I said I just think you're being extremely hypocritical in crying foul against criticism (the core of which you aren't even saying illegitimate) of MP while attacking exaggerations about MM's playing - and then retreating into its just 'levity' - that you further justify by citing a speed competition he did. Actually injecting hyperbole as the basis of your criticism of one's playing strikes me not as being careful but being rather careless.

Again, I don't mind your saying whatever you wish about Mike's playing. It's the blatantly hypocrisy of claiming denigration and inequity against your guy while doing it. That's the only thing I'm pushing back against.

[Kocak]

HARD disagree.  Mike himself - he's the artist, he should know - has regularly cited "Similitude" as one of the best albums he's ever played on. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that he includes his work on that album.  It would be odd to praise the record, and slag his contributions.

I don't really have a list of "ten greatest Portnoy moments", I'm not that kind of listener, but there would be at least one Flying Colors moment on there ("The Storm"), at least one, maybe two Transatlantic moments ("My New World is one, "Stranger In Your Soul" another), and at least one, maybe two Neal Morse/NMB moments.  All of those may not qualify as Olympic level gymnastics on the drums, but all of them elevate the music to something much greater than what it would have been without.

Having said that, though I've heard them (and unfortunately own most of it) I have almost no interest in AMob, TWD, and SOA.

How many "This is the best album we have ever made." statements have we heard from MP at this point? Few musicians admit dissatisfaction with their recent or past output. I have no interest in Neal Morse or his musical output, so I cannot comment on any of his albums. Though if I were to listen to it, I'm sure I'll hear MP being MP and nothing more, which is fine.

Post-DT MP wanted to explore other styles of music, which is understandable. He tried everything, none of them stuck. I'd argue that MP's Neal Morse gig is more of a trustworthy side hustle to keep a little bit of cash flowing, which is always good for anyone in the music business. I'd know. I'm always giddy when I receive royalties from music I produced getting used in films or TV shows.

[Adami]

THEY THEMSELVES PURE TECHNIQUE DISSECTING PORTNOY'S PLAYING DENIGRATING EXPRESSLY NOT PLAYING TO ARTIST'S EXPLICITLY ONCE EXPLICITLY EXPLICITLY MY OPINION ONE NOT YOU NOT EXPLICITLY EVER AREN'T

I wanted to see if there was a code in all of the caps words in the last two Stadler posts, can anyone decipher this?

[Kocak]

I wanted to see if there was a code in all of the caps words in the last two Stadler posts, can anyone decipher this?

TL;DR We are being unfair to Portnoy, supposedly. We are allowed to think critically, but it'd be better for us to not say anything, because it upsets Stadler. The extent of his free speech absolutism is any critique of Portnoy's drumming skills.

[nobloodyname]

I wanted to see if there was a code in all of the caps words in the last two Stadler posts, can anyone decipher this?

Something about little Timmy being down the well?

[Adami]

TL;DR We are being unfair to Portnoy, supposedly. We are allowed to think critically, but it'd be better for us to not say anything, because it upsets Stadler. The extent of his free speech absolutism is any critique of Portnoy's drumming skills.

Oh no, I follow his posts. Dude writes articulately. I just was jokingly curious if he was also inserting a subliminal message too.

[ReaperKK]

Interested debate so far, my two cents for anyone who cares.

I think its interesting that MP's mentality towards drumming is now aimed towards being a groove drummer. My introduction to MP (and DT) was in high school during the SDOIT era when my coworker and drummer friend came up to me and told me to download "ytse jam solo" from kazaa, after downloading an incredibly pixilated version of the drum solo from what I later learned was live in Tokyo was this dude wearing a leotard playing an amazing solo.

Over the coming years I absorbed DTs music and really vibed with how all the musicians were pushing the limits of their playing. MP especially was releasing dvds of his playing, describing how parts were written, spent time talking about all the time signature changes in TDOE and was seemingly really proud of the parts he came up with for DT.

Around the time he left (and for some time before that) he seemingly stopped pushing those boundaries. The playing was good but it was reptative in the sense he was going back to the well of ideas he already had in the bank. There isn't anything wrong with that, if that's what he wants to do that's his perogative. Once he left DT he just kept going back to the well for all his other side projects and being that he was in so many projects his playing grew even more stale.

Contrast that to MM who joined DT and really took the time to craft his parts for the songs he was playing on. MM is wordy but he really cares about what other players are doing and how his drumming can compliment or contrast those parts. Can he/did he go overboard at times? For me, yes but he always seemed to be trying new ideas.

When MP came back to DT in my head I could imagine what his playing was going to be like and i was right. I actually miss MM in the sense that DT's writing has stagnated a lot with recent albums but Mangini was always doing something new and interesting.

I think MP saying he is a groove oriented drummer and sort of dismissing technical drumming leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. He spent years crafting insanely difficult prog rock parts, he is proud of all his modern drummer awards (as he should be) and now that his focus has shifted it feels like he is saying technical drumming isn't his thing anymore. This is the same dude who also just said more is more when it comes to his drumkit.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

There was a post a page or so back that said the issue isn't even the technical aspect - it's the creativity. When I go back to I&W I hear plenty of musical ideas in his drumming. They aren't even technical but it doesn't matter as they sound cool and make me want to listen to the drums as much as I do the guitar riffs or keys. Fast forward to Parasomnia and how technical MP is or is not hasn't changed much. It's that I don't hear very many new musical ideas the way I used to in DT.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Getting us back on track...here's a bootleg of Mike playing The Animal with Steve Vai in Boston in 96. Obviously it's much different energy and type of show from DT; some cool rock vibes at 0:50

https://youtu.be/tl3n9PmcxfA?si=BFq5P_jWDOZwfAwL

[Kocak]

Getting us back on track...here's a bootleg of Mike playing The Animal with Steve Vai in Boston in 96. Obviously it's much different energy and type of show from DT; some cool rock vibes at 0:50

https://youtu.be/tl3n9PmcxfA?si=BFq5P_jWDOZwfAwL

I always thought that he was way more comfortable with a smaller kit. This supports that thought. Solid groove there.

[nobloodyname]

Just as happened with MP when he left the band, isn't it time this thread was moved to the General Music Discussion forum?

[hunnus2000]

I submit that no musician goes into their career with the thought of "innovation" or 'I need to come up with a creative part to improve my craft'. Granted, there are innovators such as EVH but I doubt he developed his style so he could create something "unique", it just came naturally.

I feel the same way about MP and I'd like to know what he did was so innovative. He has a style like Neil Peart, or Keith Moon. I think he serves the song with his talent.

So what does it mean to "break new ground" or "I want them to be inspired"?

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I submit that no musician goes into their career with the thought of "innovation" or 'I need to come up with a creative part to improve my craft'. Granted, there are innovators such as EVH but I doubt he developed his style so he could create something "unique", it just came naturally.

I feel the same way about MP and I'd like to know what he did was so innovative. He has a style like Neil Peart, or Keith Moon. I think he serves the song with his talent.

So what does it mean to "break new ground" or "I want them to be inspired"?

Plenty of young musicians contemplate innovation and having a unique sound/identity. At the same time many do not.

[Stadler]

TL;DR We are being unfair to Portnoy, supposedly. We are allowed to think critically, but it'd be better for us to not say anything, because it upsets Stadler. The extent of his free speech absolutism is any critique of Portnoy's drumming skills.

Couldn't be more off base. I've said at LEAST 10 times that I'm not stopping you from saying ANYTHING. I don't have the power, nor the desire to do so.  You guys all seem to want your precious fucking opinions because they're so sacred, regardless of the impact on others, and you have them. I would argue for you if someone told you to stop.  But that doesn't mean I have to believe they're harmless or meaningless. And it also doesn't mean that I don't get my own opinion: and that is, I feel that when you criticize an artist for a component of their art that they are purposefully NOT incorporating (here the technical advancement), it's disrespectful.  What you do with that is on you. Post away, my good man, post away.

[Stadler]

I wanted to see if there was a code in all of the caps words in the last two Stadler posts, can anyone decipher this?

It's my guess as to what Lumon Technologies is doing on "Severance". You'll know if I'm right in... I'd guess 18 months.