Hiring a lyricist

[LKap13]

Orcus, I honestly just cannot understand where you are coming from at all on this issue.

Considering you said you think some of the lyrics on the newer albums are good I wouldn't expect you to. I personally see them as signs of guys who write lyrics just because they have to. Outside of "The Best Of Times" there was no real meaning or purpose behind any of the words aside from giving LaBrie something to do. The phrasing and diction were so flat and boring that a little outside help could do wonders for making dull subject matter a smidge interesting.

Agreed.

At leat TCOT was intentionally tongue-in-cheek, so I have no issues with it so much.

Wait really? How do we know this?

[rumborak]

It is based on an actual event that happened to JP, but intentionally "dramatized". So, with that in mind I can listen to it (also, the music is really good). But, AROP (listening to it right now actually) for example, the lyrics read like a Wikipedia article.

rumborak

[orcus116]

Aren't there pictures online of that winery tour?

[KevShmev]

Orcus, I honestly just cannot understand where you are coming from at all on this issue.

I could say the same for you.  I mean, most of DT's lyrics are great?  Really?

Anyway, rather than hiring an outside lyricist, I would think them talking Myung into writing again, and maybe letting Rudess take a crack at some, could result in an improvement over the lyrics on the last few albums.  Basically, the downfall of Petrucci as a lyricist is the biggest reason why their lyrics have gotten pretty mediocre lately.  JLB and Portnoy's lyrics have always both been pretty iffy; Petrucci has been the dominant lyric writer since Kevin Moore left. 

[Dream Team]

Orcus, I honestly just cannot understand where you are coming from at all on this issue.

I could say the same for you.  I mean, most of DT's lyrics are great?  Really?

Anyway, rather than hiring an outside lyricist, I would think them talking Myung into writing again, and maybe letting Rudess take a crack at some, could result in an improvement over the lyrics on the last few albums.  Basically, the downfall of Petrucci as a lyricist is the biggest reason why their lyrics have gotten pretty mediocre lately.  JLB and Portnoy's lyrics have always both been pretty iffy; Petrucci has been the dominant lyric writer since Kevin Moore left. 

I don't necessarily agree. I think the only JLB or MP lyrics that are noticeably inferior are Burning My Soul, Never Enough, Constant Motion, and Prophets of War. And you could make an argument for The Best of Times, but that is such a genuine, heartfelt attempt that I can't diss it too badly.

[chknptpie]

I'd be okay with it.

[bosk1]

Orcus, I honestly just cannot understand where you are coming from at all on this issue.

I could say the same for you.   I mean, most of DT's lyrics are great?  Really?

Yes.  What is not great about them?  Orcus pointed out the last two albums.  Just looking at those, of the songs on those albums, the only ones I would say have lyrics that I don't consider good overall are:  Prophets of War, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, and The Best Of Times.  I think the story in Ministry is dumb, so I don't connect with those lyrics.  But for those who think the story is a cool idea, I can see how they would connect with them.  TBOT I just feel is too cliche-ridden, but I'm still willing to give Mike a pass if he connect to them.  But still, that's three songs out of two albums' worth of material that are questionable.  So, yeah, I'd have to say DT get props in the lyrics department.

[jsem]

The Count of Tuscany? 

[bosk1]

What about it?

[zxlkho]

SUCKING ON HIS PIPE

[j]

Actually, I sort of agree with bosk that the lyrics from the past two albums haven't been TERRIBLE overall.  But there is definitely nothing "great" about them.

From SC, I'd say Prophets of War and ITPOE Pt. 2 have *bad* lyrics.  I don't have much of a problem with the rest, but they definitely leave something to be desired.

From BC&SL, TBOT is the only song with lyrics I'd consider outright bad, but songs like Wither and ARoP just have bland, cliche lyrics.  They don't really detract from the song, but they certainly don't add anything.

Not since Awake have DT released an entire album that I would say has good lyrics throughout, and even that had some rough patches.

-J

[ClairvoyantCat]

Yes.  What is not great about them? 

They're often alienating and impossible to relate to, (Systematic Chaos) overly complicated without a real point to it (Octavarium) or just plainly not well written.  (BC&SL)

Obviously, arguing this point any further wouldn't be conducive to answering the question present or even worth the time and effort, as it is a matter of opinions, but that is how I feel about them. 

[tri.ad]

An outside lyricist could go either very right or very, very wrong. I don't really see a need for DT doing such a thing, to be honest. They still have JM in the backhand who can write great lyrics (given the premise that he wants to write again), so I wouldn't rush to conclusions like that.

[ariich]

I really don't see the big deal about DT's recent lyrics. Prophets of War was pretty laughable, but that's about it. TBOT wasn't great, but I find the simplicity of them to work well enough. TCOT was very silly, but intentionally so to show the absurdity of the experience. Some others are simply not very interesting (like AROP), but that doesn't make them bad, and anyway I could say that about some of their old lyrics as well.

[JediKnight1969]

Get Kevin Moore.

[skydivingninja]

The last two albums have suffered from okay to mediocre to poor lyrics.  Unfortunately there are a lot more poor and mediocre lyrics than okay ones.  SOMETHING needs to change if JM/JLB don't start writing again.  The only lyrics I really like from the last two albums are Wither, The Shattered Fortress and The Best of Times (yeah I like it, whatevs), and now the guy who actually had something personal and heartfelt to say left the band!   

So now we have a main lyricist who doesn't feel like asking big questions about faith or abortion or pressure and running with it anymore.  We have a guy who writes about really detached events and relays them to us piece by piece (with the exception of "Wither," which had pretty good lyrics relative to the last two albums).  The former lyricist sounds more interesting to me, and someone I'd rather listen to.  I'd rather JLB/JM get more involved than DT bringing in someone outside to help out, but if they don't step up, then they should bring in someone to help.  Not write them for the band, but just to help JP out.  It worked for early H-era Marillion. 

[ariich]

JLB is very hit and miss, at least as much so as JP. His last contribution was PoW.

As for Wither, I love the lyrics in that, some of my favourite by DT.

[skydivingninja]

PoW is James' only real dud in DT.  The other lyrics range from great (Disappear, Blind Faith), good (Anna Lee, One Last Time, Caught in a Web), to all right (Sacrificed Sons).  And the lyrics on Static Impulse that he wrote are good as well (except for the line "I'm her junkie and she is my cure" at the end of "Euphoric").  So currently I'd call JLB today a better lyricist than JP today. 

[KevShmev]

Even if you don't think the lyrics on the last few albums aren't terrible or mediocre, to go the other end of the spectrum and call them great seems like a huge reach.  I mean, if something like "In the Presence of Enemies II" has great lyrics, then what song doesn't have great lyrics? 

In fact, even though I defend the lyrics from the early days, if you asked me how many DT songs have lyrics I would call "great," as opposed to "good" or even "very good," the answer would probably be around 10-12, give or take.  In fact, most bands who consistently have great lyrics over many albums usually have one main lyricist who writes all or almost all of them (The Beatles being the obvious exception). 

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Orcus, I honestly just cannot understand where you are coming from at all on this issue.

I could say the same for you.   I mean, most of DT's lyrics are great?  Really?

Yes.  What is not great about them?  Orcus pointed out the last two albums.  Just looking at those, of the songs on those albums, the only ones I would say have lyrics that I don't consider good overall are:  Prophets of War, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, and The Best Of Times.  I think the story in Ministry is dumb, so I don't connect with those lyrics.  But for those who think the story is a cool idea, I can see how they would connect with them.  TBOT I just feel is too cliche-ridden, but I'm still willing to give Mike a pass if he connect to them.  But still, that's three songs out of two albums' worth of material that are questionable.  So, yeah, I'd have to say DT get props in the lyrics department.

I actually agree. Hell, it could be worse. They could be Spock's Beard.

[Dr. DTVT]

It works for some bands, see post Neal Spock's Beard.

Although I think the best answer is to have all 5 guys (yes, even the new guy) contribute.  Share the burden.  Jordan is a very creative person, and well spoken.  I think he could pen a very memorable lyric if he tried.  And most people here are well aware of what JMX can do when given the opportunity.

EDIT:

Is that a slight on Spock's Beard LL?  You don't like Octane and X?

[bosk1]

I mean, if something like "In the Presence of Enemies II" has great lyrics, then what song doesn't have great lyrics? 

You listen to a lot of '80s music.  It shouldn't be too hard to come up with examples. 

[xeper]

I think the best answer is to have all 5 guys (yes, even the new guy) contribute.  Share the burden.

[rumborak]

Well, the whole "get JM and JR in there!" movement is a bit based on wishful thinking I find, in the hope that they're these hidden gems. It's a bit of a bummer that none of the 3 who do write can consistently write good lyrics.

rumborak

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Is that a slight on Spock's Beard LL?  You don't like Octane and X?

Moreso directed at the Neal era. And Octane I think is okay, while X is just plain awesome. Don't get me wrong, I love SB, they were just very weak in the lyrical department for a while.

[ariich]

Well, the whole "get JM and JR in there!" movement is a bit based on wishful thinking I find, in the hope that they're these hidden gems. It's a bit of a bummer that none of the 3 who do write can consistently write good lyrics.

rumborak

In terms of JR, I've only really paid attention to his lyrics on Rhythm of Time but I really like them. JM we know how good he was in the past, but that was a long time ago, so yeah who knows whether he still has it.

[Jamesman42]

Yeah, I was gonna say that JR HAS written lyrics many glass moons ago, and they were good.

[pogoowner]

I wouldn't have much of a problem with an outside lyricist, because honestly, they couldn't get much worse than they have been lately. I haven't consistently liked their lyrics since SDOIT, and even then, there were some poor moments here and there. But removing Portnoy from the lyrics equation only helps things, in my opinion.

[robwebster]

Orcus, I honestly just cannot understand where you are coming from at all on this issue.

Considering you said you think some of the lyrics on the newer albums are good I wouldn't expect you to. I personally see them as signs of guys who write lyrics just because they have to. Outside of "The Best Of Times" there was no real meaning or purpose behind any of the words aside from giving LaBrie something to do. The phrasing and diction were so flat and boring that a little outside help could do wonders for making dull subject matter a smidge interesting.

I really like Wither. I'd also describe it as more poetic than much of the older stuff, which had a tendency to drown in metaphors. "The smile of dawn arrived early May, it carried a gift to her home" means a grand total of sod all to anyone. It's practically word soup. Tasty enough, but just stuff.

That said, BCSL did have some fairly pedestrian material. A Rite of Passage isn't particularly inspiring. It's got some nice imagery, but it's more or less "just there." TBoT is actually one that, as much as I appreciate its intent, doesn't quite resonate with me lyrically. TCoT, on the other hand, is ace. Warped and surreal.

If they wanted an outside lyricist, I wouldn't be outraged, and I'd be curious to hear and read what they came up with so there'd be a certain degree of excitement, but I'd never care even half enough to suggest it to the band when they're doing a perfectly good job as they are. "Get an outside lyricist!" "Why!" "Some guy on the internet thinks you're past it!" "Oh, that doesn't apply to every artist ever. I'll make some calls!"

("Good! Also get someone else to write the music." "What?")

"Hiring a lyricist" sounds so corporate, though. Just makes me think of meetings and paychecks. Boring. Uninspiring. Who cares?! Makes me think of a man in a white shirt and glasses swooping in with a coffee mug and examining the music, bar by bar. Probably clocks off at the end of the day. Dull.

Now, "guest lyricists" on the other hand! That sounds way more exciting. Gets the imagination going! Steven Wilson trying his hand at a Dream Theater song, a la Death Whispered a Lullaby! Brian May adored BCSL, I bet he'd love a go. Or, do they know anyone who knows Maynard James Keenan? Heck, you could do an entire album of 'em as a gimmick if you wanted. Or keep it going as a recurring feature. "The token guest song." That sounds interesting.

[rumborak]

But removing Portnoy from the lyrics equation only helps things, in my opinion.

That is without question. The man is an excellent drummer and a magnificent organizer, but one of the key elements to poetry, subtlety, is very much lacking.

rumborak

[orcus116]

I'd also describe it as more poetic than much of the older stuff, which had a tendency to drown in metaphors. "The smile of dawn arrived early May, it carried a gift to her home" means a grand total of sod all to anyone. It's practically word soup. Tasty enough, but just stuff.

The newer lyrics are still stuff, just striped of subtlety to reveal how bland and meaningless they really are. And I've never looked at "Wither" and thought that it was poetic. It's one of the most embarrassing examples of their recent lyrics, IMO.

[ariich]

I'd also describe it as more poetic than much of the older stuff, which had a tendency to drown in metaphors. "The smile of dawn arrived early May, it carried a gift to her home" means a grand total of sod all to anyone. It's practically word soup. Tasty enough, but just stuff.

The newer lyrics are still stuff, just striped of subtlety to reveal how bland and meaningless they really are. And I've never looked at "Wither" and thought that it was poetic. It's one of the most embarrassing examples of their recent lyrics, IMO.

Wtf.

[rumborak]

Wither is ok-ish I find. TBOT, that's where you think you're reading a class assignment.

rumborak

[robwebster]

I'd also describe it as more poetic than much of the older stuff, which had a tendency to drown in metaphors. "The smile of dawn arrived early May, it carried a gift to her home" means a grand total of sod all to anyone. It's practically word soup. Tasty enough, but just stuff.

The newer lyrics are still stuff, just striped of subtlety to reveal how bland and meaningless they really are. And I've never looked at "Wither" and thought that it was poetic. It's one of the most embarrassing examples of their recent lyrics, IMO.

Really? As in, 100% really?

I mean, to pick one example - I don't know what your position on The Count of Tuscany is, but I've always been a bit stunned at the sheer number people who think they're laughing "at" the silliness of the story rather than "with" it.

It's an anecdote! He knows it's ridiculous. Someone's gone "go on, tell that story you always tell." He's not Garth Marenghi, trying to make a statement about society and falling short. He's a bloke in a pub regailing a shaggy dog story. And yet 'cause it's not clearly marked with a sharpie as "the funny one" it's somehow an issue that "he wasn't ever really under threat!" As if John was ever trying to give the listener nightmares. Not to be presumptuous, but he probably noticed he doesn't die at the end before he even put pen to paper. He clocked that the fear was totally irrational about six years ago.

What he's done is recounted a fairly nifty experience by weaving it into a nineteen minute progressive metal odyssey. Which is irrational, claustrophobic, and very quirky. Musically as well as lyrically.

The Count of Tuscany is John Petrucci writing the best pub story of all time. And somehow that subtlety is lost on many of the very same people who lament its "absence". As if there were ever anything subtle about "silver teardrops fall, liquid shadows crawl." Those lines pick up the sharpie from two paragraphs ago and scrawl "THIS IS THE PRETTY SYMBOLIC BIT" onto your eyeballs. And say absolutely nothing in the process.

Not to say that the lyrics to TCoT are beyond reproach. They're not. "I don't want to die" is a very literal way of communicating fear, for instance - million miles from perfection! But the whooshing sound the song makes as it goes over half the posters' heads on here could drown out the Niagara falls. The last song on their latest album is one of the most subtle in the catalogue. So yeah, I'm not convinced the subtlety's gone anywhere.

As it's subtly funny, rather than subtly tragic or subtly introspective, I'm sure there are people who'll find that less artistic, but psh! Art's a broad spectrum and humour is definitely an artform.

[robwebster]

...and on the subject of Wither, seeing as I abjectly forgot to mention it, I'd say that likening the process of creating art from nothing to a sort of small death is pretty damn poetic, but horses for courses, each to their own, man the lifeboats, or whatever it is people say.