Hiring a lyricist

[ZBomber]

TCOT has some of the most cringeworthy lyrics I have ever heard. I don't know why everyone is saying they weren't meant to be taken seriously. I thought that was debunked awhile ago.

[bosk1]

I think they absolutely are meant to be taken seriously, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that they are intentionally ironic, self-deprecating, and, at times, funny.  It's a funny, ironic, yet dark story, and the lyrics portray all of that.  Great lyrics, hands down.

[jonny108]

"At last we came upon
A picturesque estate
On sprawling emerald fields
An ancient world of times gone by" Love it

"Where soldiers came to hide
In barrels filled with wine
Never to escape
These tombs of oak
Are where they died"  Love it

"Come and have a taste
A rare vintage
All the finest wines
Improved with age" Ugh.

[Jamesman42]

The "I don't want to die" section is sung so good IMO.

[JPX]

When you start comparing sections of The Count of Tuscany to the Back to the Future trilogy, you have probably gone too far.

[robwebster]

This is another thing I've bitched about though for a long time.  DT seems to often have an attitude that they do the song (verse/chorus/verse/chorus) and then move into something else with an instrumental section, then close out with the real song again.  I guess whether you like it or not is subjective, but I much prefer when the track from start to finish is a continuous experience that builds on itself.  Musically, TCOT accomplishes this.  Maybe not perfectly, it takes a couple listens to fully appreciate, but on my first listen I never felt the song musically didn't work together.

So saying "the more serious moments tend to be the instrumental bits" doesn't work for me.  They're just as much part of the song as the vocal sections.

I'd say that, transitionally, the bits "work," but it doesn't sound like the same song. Which works for a song like Octavarium 'cause you've got separate narratives, but yeah, it's almost the only instance in which I'd say that TCOT's lyrics don't quite fit its format. But there are still moments of fear, moments of madness, etc. I think it hangs together as a narrative. Possibly in spite of itself, but it does.

ITPOE I just don't think we agree on.  The Dark Master part and The Reckoning, to me, are more tonal misteps that DT's unfortunately often guilty of than any intentional attempt at indicating the whole song's meant to be whimsical.  All the stuff about selling your soul to the devil as a slave, being dead spiritually, and finding redemption through realizing your own hollowness in the midst of conflict (even if that conflict is with zombies), is played completely straight up by the song.

Yeah, think this is a simple disagreement. For what it's worth, though, being based on another writer's story, I don't think it's a stretch to guess that Petrucci was prioritising the story itself - the windowdressing, etc. - over the themes. Working the themes in, because they're what give the source narrative depth and would probably be why he liked the story in the first place, but I'm certain part of it was that it's "a very cool tale about monsters." Which fits the music perfectly!

All that sounded way angrier than I wanted it to be.  I enjoyed replying to this post, even though I disagree.

Yep, same. All through the discussion I've been grinning away - from my first post, even. I've not got properly embroiled in an in-depth discussion in a while and I've missed it more than I realised. So cheers! I think at this point - and this is why I've not directly responded to huge swathes of the post - it's just two different interpretations of what is a fairly ambiguous medium. There's no right or wrong reading, but I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that elements of the humour and the terror in the lyrics are definitely mirroring the music to an extent, and that the song works on its own. Maybe it doesn't quite gel for everyone, but it's far from being entirely dissonant, and I figure you can probably get where I'm coming from where I say that it comes together quite well for me, by and large?

And yeah, the SDV example was a little extreme, but it's a very clear way of illustrating a point. I don't think riffs are often dark. You can get some genuinely harrowing ones, but by and large they're no "darker" than a Doctor Who villain. They're energetic, with cheap scares, but it's played for thrills rather than to haunt. The Count of Tuscany is thrilling, rather than scary, and so the not-sincerely-threatening lyrics work, for me.

Actually, I feel there's more mileage in this, but I'm in a bit of a hurry now, so I'll have to come back to that later.

When you start comparing sections of The Count of Tuscany to the Back to the Future trilogy, you have probably gone too far.

What, for using an example from another medium to illustrate storytelling techniques? Little surprised that someone on a progressive rock message board would have qualms with music being compared to cinematic works, given the genre's predilection for concept albums. Two different media, but they both try to create a mood. Sometimes films through music, sometimes music through narrative. Inextricably linked even, often. Imagine how crap most feature films would be if you took the music away. Music and film are quite close bedfellows.

[JPX]

When you start comparing sections of The Count of Tuscany to the Back to the Future trilogy, you have probably gone too far.

What, for using an example from another medium to illustrate storytelling techniques? Little surprised that someone on a progressive rock message board would have qualms with music being compared to cinematic works, given the genre's predilection for concept albums. Two different media, but they both try to create a mood. Sometimes films through music, sometimes music through narrative. Inextricably linked even, often. Imagine how crap most feature films would be if you took the music away. Music and film are quite close bedfellows.

With all due respect, you're trying too hard and sound extremely pretentious.

[ronrule]

The first rule of prog lyrics should be "do no harm".

Very few DT (or any prog) songs have truly great lyrics compared to singer-songwriter stuff.  Prog lyrics are in their own category.

IMO, what makes good prog lyrics?  Mystery, metaphor, matches structure and mood.  I would prefer to never really know what a prog song is "about" beside some general themes.

Don't know if hiring a lyricist is necessary -- a good producer could definitely help with this issue though.  Just to cross through some lines and send it back for re-writes (of course I feel the same way about the music on the last few discs).

[Faustusmedea]

I think they should hire an outside writer for lyrics. They should hire John Myung to write lyrics.

[robwebster]

When you start comparing sections of The Count of Tuscany to the Back to the Future trilogy, you have probably gone too far.

What, for using an example from another medium to illustrate storytelling techniques? Little surprised that someone on a progressive rock message board would have qualms with music being compared to cinematic works, given the genre's predilection for concept albums. Two different media, but they both try to create a mood. Sometimes films through music, sometimes music through narrative. Inextricably linked even, often. Imagine how crap most feature films would be if you took the music away. Music and film are quite close bedfellows.

With all due respect, you're trying too hard and sound extremely pretentious.

It's cool, truth be told I'm not actually due any respect. I checked with the council and everything, so you can call me a bell-end if you want. You wouldn't be wrong. Or the first.

And, in fairness, I've kinda gone from expressive language mode into essay language mode, which is a bad thing and kinda distances me from my argument. Turns music into an investigation, which it patently isn't. Meant to make you feel feelings. Take a cat apart to see how it works and the first thing you've got on your hands is a non-working cat.

That said! If I'm having an in-depth discussion about the ways music manipulates the listener's emotion, I'm absolutely gonna quantify it with easy-peasy rootin' tootin' examples from similar media. Still, many 'pologies if I'm not monosyllabic enough for you. This is genuinely how I talk. Well, roughly. ...ish? It's how my brain lays itself out, at any rate.

That said, language is purely expression, and if I'm not communicating emotively then that does bother me. I don't like to use long words when the short one will do. Long words aren't expressive, don't ring with emotion. Don't like using them unnecessarily. Bit annoyed with myself if I've actually lapsed into being obscure for the sake of obscurity. Which I deffo did when responding to you. Don't think I did up-thread, though. Not much, anywho. Will be irritated if I did.

[Bertielee]

I think they should hire an outside writer for lyrics. They should hire John Myung to write lyrics.

Nice one!

B.Lee

[JPX]

It's cool, truth be told I'm not actually due any respect.

Well, I respect your opinion and the way in which you chose to present it (verbally or otherwise).

I appreciate the correlation between music and film but in this case I just found it tenuous at best.

[bosk1]

When you start comparing sections of The Count of Tuscany to the Back to the Future trilogy, you have probably gone too far.

What, for using an example from another medium to illustrate storytelling techniques? Little surprised that someone on a progressive rock message board would have qualms with music being compared to cinematic works, given the genre's predilection for concept albums. Two different media, but they both try to create a mood. Sometimes films through music, sometimes music through narrative. Inextricably linked even, often. Imagine how crap most feature films would be if you took the music away. Music and film are quite close bedfellows.

With all due respect, you're trying too hard and sound extremely pretentious.

There's no reason to call someone pretentious just because you disagree with them.  If you disagree with any of his (or anyone else's) points, feel free to say why.  But to simply disregard his points with an ad hominem attack, even a soft one, isn't discussion and isn't helpful.

[robwebster]

When you start comparing sections of The Count of Tuscany to the Back to the Future trilogy, you have probably gone too far.

What, for using an example from another medium to illustrate storytelling techniques? Little surprised that someone on a progressive rock message board would have qualms with music being compared to cinematic works, given the genre's predilection for concept albums. Two different media, but they both try to create a mood. Sometimes films through music, sometimes music through narrative. Inextricably linked even, often. Imagine how crap most feature films would be if you took the music away. Music and film are quite close bedfellows.

With all due respect, you're trying too hard and sound extremely pretentious.

There's no reason to call someone pretentious just because you disagree with them.  If you disagree with any of his (or anyone else's) points, feel free to say why.  But to simply disregard his points with an ad hominem attack, even a soft one, isn't discussion and isn't helpful.

Blah. Still. What I was saying made sense in my head but apparently not on the page, which still probably means I do need to start writing more clearly. I'm trying to be more tricksy than I'm capable of. So in fairness, he's not wrong. Pretentious is the word.

[bosk1]

Do you always have to let your pretentiousness get in the way of a perfectly legitimate forum warning? 

[robwebster]

Hahahahahaha. What can I say, I analysed the scenario and synthesised an appropriately convoluted repudiation.

[JPX]

Unequivocally!

[rumborak]

Indubitably.

[chknptpie]

*shoots self in head*

[Jirpo]

I wouldn't mind if they told him basic ideas/feelings about a song and he just worded them really well.