Hiring a lyricist

[orcus116]

The reason people don't laugh with "The Count Of Tuscany" is because it's presented as being completely serious. The reason many fans now know better is because of the explanations and the history behind the song. If someone listened to it completely unaware of the legacy of the song I doubt they'd find it an amusing anecdote.

[Sigz]

Man, those are some industrial-grade rose colored glass you have there Rob.

[robwebster]

The reason people don't laugh with "The Count Of Tuscany" is because it's presented as being completely serious. The reason many fans now know better is because of the explanations and the history behind the song. If someone listened to it completely unaware of the legacy of the song I doubt they'd find it an amusing anecdote.

Really?

"A BEARDED GENTLEMAN! HISTOOOOORIAN!"

It's a silly but unsettling story presented in a silly but unsettling way. And yet - presumably because they don't quote Entry of the Gladiators or Jingle Bells in the song, huge swathes of people don't notice that that was Petrucci's intention. Mocking the song like they think he doesn't know it's a little on the bizarro side.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The skewiffness doesn't hit you over the face because they don't hammer it home. And yet they're written to be goofy! Like Frank Zappa! Or me ending each sentence fragment with an exclamation mark!

Incidentally, you've gone from "the band need to be more subtle!" to "well, the reason people don't notice The Count's meant to be a fun song is because it's not made blindingly obvious." The irony is so heavy it could crush mountains.

Man, those are some industrial-grade rose colored glass you have there Rob.

Ditto your black glasses.

[Sigz]

Well, seeing as how most fans were going into TCOT having already heard lyrics like Dark Eternal Night, Forsaken, and Presence of Enemies, their isPetruccibeingseriousadar was completely out of whack.

[robwebster]

Well, seeing as how most fans were going into TCOT having already heard lyrics like Dark Eternal Night, Forsaken, and Presence of Enemies, their isPetruccibeingseriousadar was completely out of whack.

Er. So's yours. He wasn't. Systematic Chaos is practically a comic book.

Lyrics like Dark Eternal Night, Forsaken and In the Presence of Enemies are fun in the same way Ghostbusters is fun. They foreshadow the Count of Tuscany. They point a foam finger at it and raise an eyebrow expectantly.

In particular, nobody's meant to listen to The Dark Eternal Night and go "well this sounds like a dreadfully horrific character. I am well and truly chilled to the bone." If any song falls under the umbrella of "clearly and explicitly just a bit of a laugh," it is The Dark Eternal Night.

[orcus116]

The hell are you talking about? People not getting that TCOT is tongue in cheek has nothing to do with subtlety and everything to do with how terribly presented the subject matter is. The song has a serious identity crisis. Forgive someone if they believe a song on an album that was quoted by the band as being "more serious and personal in nature as far as the lyrics go" is supposed to be serious.

[robwebster]

The hell are you talking about? People not getting that TCOT is tongue in cheek has nothing to do with subtlety and everything to do with how terribly presented the subject matter is.

Alright, fair cop. What, then, in your opinion, would be better songwriting decisions to help emphasise that TCOT is tongue-in-cheek? Without resorting to farce, of course.

[orcus116]

Vocal delivery. Maybe Labrie could've had some twisted crypt keeper type delivery. He's gotta sing it like he's smirking the whole damn time.

[robwebster]

In truth, I do quite like that. Test That Stumped Them All style?

[orcus116]

Most definitely. Kinda like he's playing different characters.

[robwebster]

Yeah! Fair shout, like it.

Admittedly, I wouldn't call it subtle, but I like it. :p

[bosk1]

All I can add is the fact that Rob and I apparently agree makes me feel like I'm in right fine company.

[ReaPsTA]

Alright, fair cop. What, then, in your opinion, would be better songwriting decisions to help emphasise that TCOT is tongue-in-cheek? Without resorting to farce, of course.

Rewriting the whole song.  The intro is super lush/epic/takes itself seriously.  The verses are very intense and don't exactly lend themselves to comedy.  The chorus has basically zero tongue-in-cheek quality.  The instrumental section gets darker and darker as it goes on, culminating in the ambient solo which asks the audience to really get into it and feel it.  Trying to mentally process the idea that it fits into something with a comedic edge doesn't work.  Then the acoustic section very much emphasizes the feeling of clinging to hope, which transitions into an ending that's one of the most epic the band has written.  Fitting comedy into this requires an intellectual leap rather than an emotional one.  The music asks your heart to feel one thing, the lyrics ask your brain to feel another.

Lyrics like Dark Eternal Night, Forsaken and In the Presence of Enemies are fun in the same way Ghostbusters is fun. They foreshadow the Count of Tuscany. They point a foam finger at it and raise an eyebrow expectantly.

In particular, nobody's meant to listen to The Dark Eternal Night and go "well this sounds like a dreadfully horrific character. I am well and truly chilled to the bone." If any song falls under the umbrella of "clearly and explicitly just a bit of a laugh," it is The Dark Eternal Night.

Hm, yeah, see, I think we're seeing things fundamentally differently.  Forsaken can be taken completely seriously and has zero indications of winking at the audience.  ITPOE was meant to be a legitimately meaningful story about inner conflict, and mostly works on this level.  TDEN is the only one I can listen to and think "oh yeah, intentionally cheesy."

And I've never looked at "Wither" and thought that it was poetic. It's one of the most embarrassing examples of their recent lyrics, IMO.

I don't understand this.  Wither uses imagery and emotion to make its point rather than colorlessly stating facts with intense music and vocal delivery.  Where's the lack of poetry?  And why would it be embarrassing?

[orcus116]

Boring imagery fueled by pedestrian diction, emotion hinging upon the music rather than the words, reads like a first draft instead of something that has been edited to its full potential. I kinda dug the song the first couple times I heard it but it feel pretty flat for these reasons.

[skydivingninja]

I was just about to post what Reap said about TCOT.  The music is great.  Love it to death.  However, considering the mood of the music throughout, it doesn't really lend itself to comedic lyrics, dontcha think?  Its sprawling, epic, and beautiful, save the verses, which are by contrast heavy and dark.  Whereas TDEN, while you know it isn't very serious, is heavy, because its about a monster, and there's plenty of circus music (and ragtime!) to contribute to a sense of fun.  I still don't like TDEN's lyrics, but the music of that song lends itself to be more fun than TCOT's.

However unlike ReaPsTA, I would not advocate scrapping the beautiful music from TCOT to make those lyrics fit.

[2Timer]

If that would be what they wanted, I would trust their judgment. They haven't let me down yet.

[LKap13]

I'm still a little confused. Robwebster, Bosk and rumborak all seem to know that TCoT has a tone of levity/satire to it. How is it that you've come to this conclusion? Did I miss a JP interview? Seriously, what's to back up your assumption?

[ReaPsTA]

However unlike ReaPsTA, I would not advocate scrapping the beautiful music from TCOT to make those lyrics fit.

I agree with you.  I'd rather rewrite the lyrics.  Musically, TCOT is amazing.

I'm still a little confused. Robwebster, Bosk and rumborak all seem to know that TCoT has a tone of levity/satire to it. How is it that you've come to this conclusion? Did I miss a JP interview? Seriously, what's to back up your assumption?

In some interview, JP said something like it was a silly story about a misunderstanding.

Boring imagery fueled by pedestrian diction, emotion hinging upon the music rather than the words, reads like a first draft instead of something that has been edited to its full potential. I kinda dug the song the first couple times I heard it but it feel pretty flat for these reasons.

I don't understand how any of this quantitatively describes the content of the song.  Maybe the diction thing, but with that I don't understand why pedestrian is a valid descriptive term.

[robwebster]

I'm going to prefix this by saying that I'm pretty sure that the moment I start clipping bits of audio to illustrate my argument is the moment I should definitely stop debating things on the internet. I am 100% embarrassed by this. It's a long way from "post" to "sample," and a much shorter (and sharper) drop from "sample" to "PowerPoint presentation." But! What can I say, I'm a thorough man.

The instrumental section gets darker and darker as it goes on, culminating in the ambient solo which asks the audience to really get into it and feel it.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6385479/TCoT%20Clip.mp3

I know you mentioned the later instrumental section, but this clip from earlier in the song does a very good job of foreshadowing it. I wouldn't call it singularly dark. The siren-like guitar melody at the start is pretty singsong in itself, but then it goes into a somewhat percussive and very gleeful organ section, into the more modulated organ mirrored with the guitar - and the music is practically playing with the listener throughout. It's not "a soundtrack to a horrific event," it's more teasing than that. Mischievous. And that's the foundation that the later instrumental section is built on.

Which, admittedly, isn't an entire song's worth of evidence, but as part of the whole, that excerpt doesn't exactly stick out like a sore thumb. It's in keeping with the tone. The riffs aren't any darker than those in The Dark Eternal Night (which, name notwithstanding, isn't too dark at all), and when the chorus kicks in it's a triumphant, singalong moment, rather than a moment that's played as dramatic.

Not to say that they don't treat the fear seriously. When the second (longer) instrumental section kicks in, there's genuine dread, there. But that doesn't preclude the comedy. Enhances it, if anything. Back to the Future is good because it's a really fun ride, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective as a film if, when Doc Brown's hanging from the clock tower, you didn't care whether he died or not - or if we weren't disgusted when Biff gets all rapey in the car. BttF isn't played up as a farce - the score epic, the characters sincere - but that doesn't preclude it from being a cracking good laugh.

Of course, the words to TCoT having been written after the music, a lot of the specific beats are perhaps unintentional, but I'd say that the story matches the sounds pretty snugly. I'd not describe TCoT as musically dark, and while there are moments that are perhaps too sincere - the intro, for instance, and the ambient section - they tend, largely, to be the instrumental bits. And the intro doesn't particularly match the verses in the first place, lyrics or not, so I'm not in a hurry to pin that on Petrucci's storytelling. The instrumental moment which you described as dark, as I said, I don't really buy. It's comic book darkness. The theme park version. The unisons in the long instrumental section you mentioned even border on cartoony - but, again, it's not laid on with a trowel, which I'd say is actually fairly apt, considering that the characters were authentically fearful. Again: less Laurel & Hardy, more Back to the Future.

Hm, yeah, see, I think we're seeing things fundamentally differently.  Forsaken can be taken completely seriously and has zero indications of winking at the audience.  ITPOE was meant to be a legitimately meaningful story about inner conflict, and mostly works on this level.  TDEN is the only one I can listen to and think "oh yeah, intentionally cheesy."

Aye, which is the reason that TDEN is the one I earmarked as "just a bit of a laugh," as opposed to the other two. But they're all caricatures. Flights of fancy. I used the phrase "the theme park version" earlier in the post, and I'm drawing it out again. JP's not gone "the best way to express romance is through VAMPIRES." He's just telling ripping yarns. I wouldn't call Forsaken or ITPOE jokes, but they're certainly escapist. Entertainment over expression. Which is then mirrored by The Count. They're not particularly sincere. Just stories. Just like TCoT. For fun.

John Petrucci is in the business of telling stories. TCoT is funny and unsettling, told in a way that doesn't always scream "funny and unsettling" at you. But I think it fits its vessel quite nicely, myself. Tells a fun story in a way that isn't patronising. I call that subtle songwriting. And subtle storytelling! But if you feel there's a dissonance I don't imagine I'll convince you to magically stop hearing it. I'd implore you to listen again, though, certainly.

And perhaps to compare the "dark" heavy, chunky, jump-up-and-down-in-nine-eight-y riffs to something sincerely dark like, say, Space-Dye Vest.




Also, missed this earlier...

Forgive someone if they believe a song on an album that was quoted by the band as being "more serious and personal in nature as far as the lyrics go" is supposed to be serious.

Never begrudged them for it, but when the band say "more serious and personal in nature," the album they're reacting to is Systematic Chaos. Effectively, they're saying it's "more serious and personal in nature than Nyarlathotep was." Which is completely and utterly true.

[Perpetual Change]

Systematic Chaos has great lyrics. People who don't like the lyrics just don't understand what the album was going for.

Black Clouds, on the other hand, is just OK. I agree with orcus and rumby there. Those lyrics are simply not very good.

That said, I still wouldn't mind someone from the outside coming in to do lyrics. It's not a big deal to me.

[orcus116]

Systematic Chaos has great lyrics. People who don't like the lyrics just don't understand what the album was going for. 

I'm probably guilty of using this in the past but it really is a terrible excuse. It's the laziest way of telling someone off without putting in the work to explain what you mean. That being said I've read enough arguments about the album and it's tone to understand where you're coming from, PC, those lyrics just aren't my style.

[j]

I found TCoT's lyrics weird at first (and still kinda do), but they've grown on me for reasons mostly cited by Rob and others.  And as for the music not fitting them, what did you expect?  DT writes epic, progressive, "serious-sounding" music.  That's their bread and butter, so if they were to write some so-called "tongue-in-cheek" lyrics (which they may have with TCoT), I would still expect to hear their brand of music behind them.  But yeah, there wasn't really a precedent for it, so TCoT is hard to peg.

That said, I do fall on the more critical side of DT's recent lyrics.  And sure, their lyrics have ranged from passable to cringe-worthy for practically their whole careers.  But frankly, if I had to choose, I much prefer their over-the-top, metaphor-and-flowery-language-saturated lyrics to their more recent completely banal, written-by-an-8th-grader sounding lyrics.  Admittedly neither approach is ideal, but at least the former *sound* kinda cool.

-J

[Perpetual Change]

But the album completely accomplishes what it was going for, imo. If you don't like what it was going for, that's another thing, but even with an outside lyricist DT could still wind up producing lyrics that aren't your cup of tea.

[ReaPsTA]

I'm going to prefix this by saying that I'm pretty sure that the moment I start clipping bits of audio to illustrate my argument is the moment I should definitely stop debating things on the internet. I am 100% embarrassed by this. It's a long way from "post" to "sample," and a much shorter (and sharper) drop from "sample" to "PowerPoint presentation." But! What can I say, I'm a thorough man.

The deeper in you get, the more you post.  I won't complain.

I know you mentioned the later instrumental section, but this clip from earlier in the song does a very good job of foreshadowing it. I wouldn't call it singularly dark. The siren-like guitar melody at the start is pretty singsong in itself, but then it goes into a somewhat percussive and very gleeful organ section, into the more modulated organ mirrored with the guitar - and the music is practically playing with the listener throughout. It's not "a soundtrack to a horrific event," it's more teasing than that. Mischievous. And that's the foundation that the later instrumental section is built on.

None of this is untrue.  But I don't see the light-heartedness in being teased (with death) and mischievousness (of a murderous nature).  It's like the Joker in The Dark Knight.  Some of his lines were genuinely funny, but I laughed in more of a "there's just a little moment of real joy before horrifying things happen" kind of way.

Which, admittedly, isn't an entire song's worth of evidence, but as part of the whole, that excerpt doesn't exactly stick out like a sore thumb. It's in keeping with the tone. The riffs aren't any darker than those in The Dark Eternal Night (which, name notwithstanding, isn't too dark at all), and when the chorus kicks in it's a triumphant, singalong moment, rather than a moment that's played as dramatic.

I don't the riffs are necessarily darker, but they feel more musically serious.  Instead of chuggy heaviness, there's a stronger sense of musicality and drama to them.  They seem more meaningful.  The chorus thing I have to completely disagree.  Where's the triumph in feeling like death is immanent?

Not to say that they don't treat the fear seriously. When the second (longer) instrumental section kicks in, there's genuine dread, there. But that doesn't preclude the comedy. Enhances it, if anything. Back to the Future is good because it's a really fun ride, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective as a film if, when Doc Brown's hanging from the clock tower, you didn't care whether he died or not - or if we weren't disgusted when Biff gets all rapey in the car. BttF isn't played up as a farce - the score epic, the characters sincere - but that doesn't preclude it from being a cracking good laugh.

Here's the difference though:  Back to the Future relentlessly winks and nods at the audience.  It knows it's not meant to be taken too seriously and constantly reminds the audience.  The music in TCOT is completely straight up.  And really, the lyrics don't do this either.  There's a couple moments of silliness (MY BROTHER!!!), but those moments are surrounded by stuff like the second verse, which is genuinely creepy.  Or anything after the ambient solo.

Of course, the words to TCoT having been written after the music, a lot of the specific beats are perhaps unintentional, but I'd say that the story matches the sounds pretty snugly.

The story, but not the way it's told.

I'd not describe TCoT as musically dark, and while there are moments that are perhaps too sincere - the intro, for instance, and the ambient section - they tend, largely, to be the instrumental bits.

This is another thing I've bitched about though for a long time.  DT seems to often have an attitude that they do the song (verse/chorus/verse/chorus) and then move into something else with an instrumental section, then close out with the real song again.  I guess whether you like it or not is subjective, but I much prefer when the track from start to finish is a continuous experience that builds on itself.  Musically, TCOT accomplishes this.  Maybe not perfectly, it takes a couple listens to fully appreciate, but on my first listen I never felt the song musically didn't work together.

So saying "the more serious moments tend to be the instrumental bits" doesn't work for me.  They're just as much part of the song as the vocal sections.

And the intro doesn't particularly match the verses in the first place, lyrics or not, so I'm not in a hurry to pin that on Petrucci's storytelling. The instrumental moment which you described as dark, as I said, I don't really buy. It's comic book darkness. The theme park version. The unisons in the long instrumental section you mentioned even border on cartoony - but, again, it's not laid on with a trowel, which I'd say is actually fairly apt, considering that the characters were authentically fearful. Again: less Laurel & Hardy, more Back to the Future.

True, but this doesn't negate the expression of genuine feeling. 

I guess here's my overall point.  Look at the first Iron Man.  Lot's of fun, not meant to be taken super duper seriously, but it never winked at the audience and said not to fully buy into it.  Because you are right in a sense, I'm not expecting TCOT to work like Disappear.  But when the music takes itself seriously and strongly implies you do the same, the lyrics shouldn't contradict that by asking you to accept them as not completely taking itself seriously.  I can't process the dissonance.

Hm, yeah, see, I think we're seeing things fundamentally differently.  Forsaken can be taken completely seriously and has zero indications of winking at the audience.  ITPOE was meant to be a legitimately meaningful story about inner conflict, and mostly works on this level.  TDEN is the only one I can listen to and think "oh yeah, intentionally cheesy."

Aye, which is the reason that TDEN is the one I earmarked as "just a bit of a laugh," as opposed to the other two. But they're all caricatures. Flights of fancy. I used the phrase "the theme park version" earlier in the post, and I'm drawing it out again. JP's not gone "the best way to express romance is through VAMPIRES." He's just telling ripping yarns. I wouldn't call Forsaken or ITPOE jokes, but they're certainly escapist. Entertainment over expression. Which is then mirrored by The Count. They're not particularly sincere. Just stories. Just like TCoT. For fun.

This is that same thing I said before though.  Entertainment and expression, as well as being entertained and really feeling something, are not mutually exclusive things.  Forsaken doesn't work on the same level as Lifting Shadows (a far more serious and deeply emotional song), but it tells a story and you get to enjoy it and project yourself into it for what it is.

ITPOE I just don't think we agree on.  The Dark Master part and The Reckoning, to me, are more tonal misteps that DT's unfortunately often guilty of than any intentional attempt at indicating the whole song's meant to be whimsical.  All the stuff about selling your soul to the devil as a slave, being dead spiritually, and finding redemption through realizing your own hollowness in the midst of conflict (even if that conflict is with zombies), is played completely straight up by the song.

John Petrucci is in the business of telling stories. TCoT is funny and unsettling, told in a way that doesn't always scream "funny and unsettling" at you. But I think it fits its vessel quite nicely, myself. Tells a fun story in a way that isn't patronising. I call that subtle songwriting. And subtle storytelling! But if you feel there's a dissonance I don't imagine I'll convince you to magically stop hearing it. I'd implore you to listen again, though, certainly.

I don't think it's patronizing either.  I'm not sure I can do the subtle thing either.  It's like when someone makes a really offensive comment toward you, you get angry, then they tell you they were joking and it's your fault for not getting it.  Maybe the person's just being an asshole.  And maybe TCOT just doesn't know what it's supposed to be.

All that sounded way angrier than I wanted it to be.  I enjoyed replying to this post, even though I disagree.

And perhaps to compare the "dark" heavy, chunky, jump-up-and-down-in-nine-eight-y riffs to something sincerely dark like, say, Space-Dye Vest.

Heh.

[KevShmev]

Personally, I find the lyrics to "The Count of Tuscany" pretty absurd, but the music is more than good enough to make up for them.  The same cannot be said for "In the Presence of Enemies, Part 2," which has a lot worse lyrics and not nearly as good music.  

I mean, if something like "In the Presence of Enemies II" has great lyrics, then what song doesn't have great lyrics?  

You listen to a lot of '80s music.  It shouldn't be too hard to come up with examples.  

Touche. But the rest of my post still stands.

[bosk1]

I mean, if something like "In the Presence of Enemies II" has great lyrics, then what song doesn't have great lyrics?  

You listen to a lot of '80s music.  It shouldn't be too hard to come up with examples.  

Touche. :lo: But the rest of my post still stands.

 Speaking of which, here are some deep lyrics:  deep lyrics

[KevShmev]

Oof.

[The Degenerate]

>Y&T
>

[razorsedge]

as a fan who consumes as much dt content as possible (so i've probably seen/read at least as many primary sources as most of you), i get the impression that lyrics are totally an afterthought for the guys. it's not that they necessarily don't  care, but it just seems they're not going to labor over lyric writing any more than necessary.  so yes, they should absolutely hire someone who is going to focus solely on taking the ideas from the band and working them into great lyrics. 

[?]

I wouldn't have any problem with an outside lyricist, considering the quality of the lyrics on SC and BC&SL. Anathema used 2 outside lyricists on The Silent Enigma and they wrote some pretty good lyrics. However, I think the main problem with the lyrics on the late DT albums isn't the quality itself, it's the fact that they don't always fit the songs well: "EVERYONE SURVIVED! RRROOOAAARRR!!!" "SUCKING ON HIS PIPE!"

[ariich]

Rob, I'd just like to say that you are my hero. You express my thoughts better than I ever could!

[TAC]

 Speaking of which, here are some deep lyrics:  deep lyrics

That's just BAD!

Rob, I'd just like to say that you are my hero. You express my thoughts better than I ever could!

I don't know. He uses a higher grade of English that I'm not familiar with. I need to pull out my Rob To English translation dictionary.




Well, for what's it's worth, I think TCOT is just fine.

[bosk1]

  Speaking of which, here are some deep lyrics:  deep lyrics

That's just BAD!

Exactly.  And you know I love Y&T, but when I heard that song the first time, I was like..."come on, guys!  REALLY?!?!?"  So now, hopefully, we're clear on what constitutes bad lyrics. 

Well, for what's it's worth, I think TCOT is just fine.

I think it's better than "just fine."  Same with ANTR (other than "ROAR!" but that's not really a lyric anyway, so...).

[Jamesman42]

I think that, lately, their lyrics have been mediocre, lukewarm, just there. Some of the lyrics are great (Wither, TSF, Repentance), but a lot of them have been nothing amazing. Still, with lyrics, i focus more on how it's being sung anyway. So, as bad as "Dark Master of sin, I will fight for you!" is, JLB delivers it like no other could...still has that DT sound.

If I want good lyrics, I'll go listen to another band. DT to me has always been about the great, fun music.

[TAC]

Well, for what's it's worth, I think TCOT is just fine.

I think it's better than "just fine."  Same with ANTR (other than "ROAR!" but that's not really a lyric anyway, so...).

Oh, I agree I love TCOT. The music is damn near perfect, and I think the story telling is well done. Now I'm not crazy about the "I don't want to die" line, especially when my 8 year old is singing it! , but I feel the pacing of the story is good, and the ending is eargasmic.