Official Neal Morse Appreciation Thread

[Kyo]

I didn't get that from the T2 documentary AT ALL.  It was more along the lines of [paraphrase], "I originally had the thought that I didn't want to repeat myself, and then Mike pointed out to me that it would be so much better to have those callbacks, and it's such a 'prog' thing to do, and even though that wasn't initially on my radar, I realized that was a really good idea."

That idea that Neal didn't really want to, but the other guys drove him to it, just isn't right.  Again, YES, Neal is a great compromiser.  But he also doesn't give up on what he thinks the best vision for one of his projects is. 

This is stretching my point. First of all, that's how it ended up on the album, so what is he gonna say? "I didn't like the idea, but it is what it is"?  It's his album, after all.

As with One above, it'd be perfectly reasonable for Neal to think that both approaches are valid and since Mike and Randy feel really strongly about those T1 quotes in there, why not just go along with that? Doesn't change the fact that his original intention was not to repeat himself, as he very explicitly told us himself, so that the album as written by Neal did not contain any of those quotes. Again, I am just siding with Neal's original instincts here.

I think the "making of" documentaries for the last 2 albums really illustrate that point quite vividly.

For TSOAD, Neal felt VERY strongly that it needed to be a double concept album.  Mike felt VERY strongly that it should not.  That led to tension between the two on a level they hadn't seen before, and it was disturbing to both of them.  But Neal stuck to his guns, and they moved forward with it being what Neal wanted it to be. 

Then for TGA, they weren't even writing a sequel, and when the idea came up, the band said they didn't think it was a good idea.  After writing the entire thing, Neal re-write it himself and made it into the sequel he wanted to write. 

Those are just a couple of recent examples, but they are very illustrative.  The idea that Neal isn't in control of his band's vision or that he does not have the final say (and isn't 100% comfortable making the call) isn't supported by what we have seen in the band's history.

I noticed that too and I was happy to see Neal stand his ground when it came to such big decisions. We can't know for sure, but given the previous examples I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the music was better for it.

[Stadler]

Then we know that Mike has very strong opinions on this stuff and he wears people down in arguments so he always gets his will (his words, not mine  ). 

No, that's not really accurate about Mike's involvement with Neal at all.  I mean, the "strong opinions" part is true.  But beyond that, I think you're reading too much into it that isn't there.

In the several docs I just watched, I haven't gotten even a hint that that was accurate in the context of the Neal Morse/NMB albums.  Maybe Dream Theater, but not here.   Mike must've said 10 times on the Grand Experiment doc that MacArthur Park should go on the record proper.  EEEEHHHH.  Not there, and that's but one example.

[bosk1]

...that's how it ended up on the album, so what is he gonna say? "I didn't like the idea, but it is what it is"?

There are a lot of things he could have said.  All we know is what he did say.  So why read more into it or assume something else? 

[KevShmev]

Kyo,

We can continue to agree to disagree.

Original intention (see: rough draft) does not always equal best intention, and it's clear that Neal is good with changing things on the fly if he feels others have ideas that can make his original intentions better, and he is also good with standing firm if he feels his original intention ultimately works best.

Question: do you think The Gates of Delirium by Yes is not good songwriting either?  Because, like The Separated Man, this is a long epic where the song goes into a radically different direction in the second half than what was done in the first half.

[Kyo]

In the several docs I just watched, I haven't gotten even a hint that that was accurate in the context of the Neal Morse/NMB albums.  Maybe Dream Theater, but not here.   Mike must've said 10 times on the Grand Experiment doc that MacArthur Park should go on the record proper.  EEEEHHHH.  Not there, and that's but one example.

But the situations are very different. NMB recording The Grand Experiment was over a decade later and Mike is only one of five people. Back in 2004 when they made One, he was one of three and Randy was just recording with Neal for the very first time, so obviously Mike had a lot more sway in this context.

[KevShmev]

But the situations are very different. NMB recording The Grand Experiment was over a decade later and Mike is only one of five people. Back in 2004 when they made One, he was one of three and Randy was just recording with Neal for the very first time, so obviously Mike had a lot more sway in this context.

Neal recently said in an interview that on one of the songs from his forthcoming album, he used the take he did on the demo, not the one Portnoy did when recording his drum tracks for the album, because he thought his take fit the song better.  And he called Portnoy to make sure he was okay with it, and Portnoy was gracious about it and basically said, "That's fine, it your's album."  That tells me that when it comes to Neal's solo albums, Portnoy will give his ideas and suggestions, but is not going to force any option too hard since he knows it is ultimately Neal's album.  That is why I do not buy the theory that he "forced" Neal to make any changes he didn't want to make when it came to One. 

[Kyo]

That tells me that when it comes to Neal's solo albums, Portnoy will give his ideas and suggestions, but is not going to force any option too hard since he knows it is ultimately Neal's album.  That is why I do not buy the theory that he "forced" Neal to make any changes he didn't want to make when it came to One.

Again, you guys are putting words into my mouth for some reason. I didn't say or imply Mike "forced" Neal do to anything. As I have said before, it may as well just be a case of Mike really preferring it one way and advocating for that and Neal ultimately coming to the conclusion that both ways work for him, so why not give Mike his will. That is not forcing anything at all. It's how band situations work. But it also does not mean that only because Neal went with Mike's suggestion, he thinks his original demo wasn't as good. It may as well just be the case that he thought both worked fine or each had its pros and cons. Again, that is just regular band stuff.

[bosk1]

...so obviously Mike had a lot more sway in this context.

No, we don't know that at all.  That is pure speculation.  For all we know, it could be the opposite.  I plausible argument can be made that Mike was much more deferential back then because it was only the second solo album he was doing with Neal, and the album was entirely Neal's vision, whereas by the time of TGA, he was more comfortable and less concerned about stepping on toes if he presented a strong opinion.  We just don't know either way.

[Kyo]

Question: do you think The Gates of Delirium by Yes is not good songwriting either?  Because, like The Separated Man, this is a long epic where the song goes into a radically different direction in the second half than what was done in the first half.

I mostly like Gates. It doesn't have a lot of connection between its parts, but it follows a clear direction throughout and each part fulfills its function (introduction, song proper, instrumental journey, extended coda), so at least it is clearly structured in that respect. Now, if they extensively quoted And You And I in the middle, I would probably like it significantly less. 

[Kyo]

No, we don't know that at all.  That is pure speculation.  For all we know, it could be the opposite.  I plausible argument can be made that Mike was much more deferential back then because it was only the second solo album he was doing with Neal, and the album was entirely Neal's vision, whereas by the time of TGA, he was more comfortable and less concerned about stepping on toes if he presented a strong opinion.  We just don't know either way.

It was Neal's fourth album with Mike after TA1+2 and Testimony, Neal certainly knew what he was getting into and so I don't think you have a very good point there. Would he hire Mike on the condition that he would not be the same Mike that he had worked with before? Doesn't seem likely. Also, The Creation and Reunion are two of the very rare cases where Mike even got a song-writing credit in the pre-NMB era. So not "entirely Neal's vision" and not something you get when you're being overly deferential. Other than a couple of shorter bits on ?, it would be over a decade before Mike would be credited as a co-writer on a Neal Morse album again, so on paper One had the most Mike input of all the early Neal solo discs. That does not go well with your hypothesis. But I will try to remember to ask Neal next time I speak to him. 

[bosk1]

But I'm not pushing a hypothesis.  You are.  I merely presented one to show that there are MANY possibilities for why your speculation is not necessarily the truth.  You are guessing about things and presenting your guesses as fact.  They aren't. 

[425]

...so obviously Mike had a lot more sway in this context.

No, we don't know that at all.  That is pure speculation.  For all we know, it could be the opposite.  I plausible argument can be made that Mike was much more deferential back then because it was only the second solo album he was doing with Neal, and the album was entirely Neal's vision, whereas by the time of TGA, he was more comfortable and less concerned about stepping on toes if he presented a strong opinion.  We just don't know either way.

I think it's also worth noting that the agreement on roles seems to be different on Neal Morse solo albums versus Neal Morse Band albums. I believe Mike himself has expressed that Neal solo means Neal is primarily in charge of the songwriting, whereas NMB means all five members are significant participants.

[Kyo]

...that's how it ended up on the album, so what is he gonna say? "I didn't like the idea, but it is what it is"?

There are a lot of things he could have said.  All we know is what he did say.  So why read more into it or assume something else?

Why are you acting like I am disputing what he said? He said exactly what we have discussed - that he didn't wanna repeat himself, but the others really wanted these quotes in there and he came around to the idea. My comment was in the meaning of "of course he was OK with the way it ended up, or it would be different", not "Neal secretly hated it but he had to play along". What's with the constant reading stuff into my comments that just isn't there?

[The Letter M]

All this talk about One has prompted me to put on the Making Of One DVDs from the Inner Circle, since I'm not curious about those sessions. I'm typing up direct quotes from the video to share here so shed some light on how those sessions went, with some of it being Neal's (and Randy's) thoughts on the sessions long afterwards (after reviewing the material for the video).

I'll update this post with more quotes as I go along, but here are some tidbits that I've found interesting enough to share for now:


Neal's Foreword before the main presentation -

"One of the first things i remember about it was that right from the beginning I felt like I was supposed to collaborate. Figuring out who to collaborate with was kind of a bit of a challenge. It wound up being that Mike and Randy, particularly Randy George, he helped me a lot with the lyrics. It was fun for me watching all the old footage cuz I don't remember most of the stuff, cuz it was '04, and I didn't remember that Randy and I worked on the lyrics so much. There's so many diferent parts of the process that I didn't reall remember."

Neal wanted to name the album Unity. Mike liked it. Randy suggested One.

Neal on The Creation -

"I can't say enough about what Mike and Randy had to with all of, how it all turned out. When I listened to the original demo, there was really not much of an intro. I had this idea of, for the beginning, the very beginning, of this orchestra thing of God breathing in Heaven before Creation *sings opening*. And on the demo, I put breathing in there. That's what I was going for in that beginning was kind of God by himself, and then when the band comes in, now he creates man. I was really taken with ow much Mike and Randy helped to shape that whole intro thing. I think it was Randy's idea to go into the bass and drums part. We didn't really have any of that stuff, and I think one of my favorite sections, the part that goes *sings the part at 2:24* - I love that part, really exciting part! That was some, in some way derived form a riff that I heard on, Randy had sent me some demos of some of his things that he was wanting to sort of throw into the mix. And so, yeah, the whole intro of Creation, before the vocals start, was really a three-way jam."

Randy discusses how he had a large part in suggesting lyrical ideas to Neal and how Neal surprised him with accepting them during the demo stage.

Neal -

"As I watch the footage, I saw that really it was Mike's vision to have another section in there, and as I was playing he was kind of coaching me on the chords. I'd been hearing this melody, and isn't that bizarre, you know, you're working on this album then you come in the morning and you're just hearing this melody and it just fits, just becomes the perfect thing that you need, and you don't even know that you need it and it just fits in there perfectly. But there's this cool footage of Mike sitting there behind me, "No, no, no. Go to a higher chord." I'm not even hearing what he's hearing, ya know, and then we finally get it, and it's just the right thing. And it builds up, builds up, and cut - "In the evening breezes..." and I'm like "Oh yeah!"

Then there's that footage of Mike and Neal, with Randy, of working out the chord changes before the above vocal part comes in. Neal comments that while his idea was different, it was good!

Randy talks about how, in The Creation, they cut an "Irish Anthem" from the piece, and replaced it with parts they had laying around.

Neal then talks about how The Man's gone was really the first song he wrote for the album. Interesting to note that the opening storm heard in the song was actually recorded from the door to the outside of his studio.

Neal, on Author of Confusion -

"My original version started off with the *sings riff* thing. It was Randy's idea, I believe, to take that riff, which was originally over in Separarted Man or something, to take that riff and use it as the intro for Author, which is AWESOME. Such an exciting intro, ya know, and that became a great thing for live performances, too. Author of Confusion is really exciting live."

Neal, on The Separated Man -

"The Separated Man did not exist. I had never written a track called "The Separated Man" - that was really, I think, a concept that came through the process of organizing the album and re-doing the album with Mike and Randy. I had these sections, but I don't think they all ran together. The "D Jam", the whole middle section, the big jam section in the middle of Separated Man, was part of the intro of the album originally. It's like you're, making a record like this is like you're on some kind of great adventure, and you have, like, scouts and other people with you to help, but it's your record and you're in charge and you've got to make sure that it's right and good, and you don't have that much time to make decisions. You gotta make decisions pretty quickly."

Randy, on The Separated Man -

"The Separated Man itself, along with section, that "I am the man" thing that follows it, I think was originally like that, but the whole acoustic guitar groove thing that happens at the end, the big orchestrated, that builds up to a big orchestrated thing, that was originally the end section, originally in The Creation on the demos. We felt that it worked better later in the album, that was one of Mike's ideas as well. He had a lot of ideas about sections and where they seemed to work best in the album. I think that really adds a lot to it."

Neal, on The Separated Man cont. -

"I'm really grateful to have people around me that I have come to know that I can trust, ya know, cuz if they both agree, or if everyone agrees that it's a good thing to turn in this direction, then I'll generally go 'Well, if you guys think that, then I'll trust you.' And I'll go that way, even though sometimes I might not agree initially. I mean, the over-all sense of this piece is, ya know, that man is now separated and really exhalting himself, particularly in the "I Am The Man" section. ... One of the thigns that's really cool is, going back into the "The Man's Gone" reprise, I think Mike wanted to go straight into the "D Jam" and I kinda had to talk him into, just having a moment after the end of the whole "I Am The Man" part."

FINAL EDIT:

Neal - "It was the first real collaboration with Mike and Randy that I had done, and that was one of the things that made it really special."

Neal, on "King Jesus" - "The one regret that I have has to do with "King Jesus". "King Jesus" was supposed to be on the album, I think, after "Father Of Forgiveness", and before "Reunion". [Note - we now know he was misremembering here lol] And it was too long, the album was too long, it couldn't fit and we had to cut something and Mike suggested that we cut "King Jesus". 'I know this might be touchy but..." was Mike's suggestion. And I think I prayed about it and felt like that's what I should do, but I've always wished that, cuz "King Jesus" I think is a really strong song, in fact, so strong that we have used it as an encore at many different festivals. So I'm sorry that "King Jesus" wasn't on there, it was only on the bonus disc."

Well, that was a fun time! Hearing 2012 Neal and Randy look back and talk about those 2004 sessions was fun and interesting. I'm sure I've watched these before, but I had forgotten about how much Randy was involved with the lyrics, especially with a lot of "Reunion".

As for the whole revisionism of Neal's works (or anyone's works), I'm of two minds. As some might know on here, I often re-work track lists for studio albums, especially for bands that release a lot of bonus tracks (like The Flower Kings). The album, as a whole work of art, is a bit tricky, especially when it comes to narrative concept albums. I like to believe that, for the most part, they should be taken as they are released because, for the most part, the running order was set with a purpose. And I feel that, in this case, Neal wouldn't release anything he wasn't happy with, and that includes during the sessions, after the recording, and even after release. If he ever felt like something needed to change because he felt it would've been better another/his way, then we probably would've seen that on stage. As far as I know, he typically plays his songs as they were released (aside from medleys, extra jamming, and extended solos, but that's just prog in general). It would be like if Dream Theater decided that they liked the 1993 version of "A Change Of Seasons" more and started playing that again.

Personally, I like how all of Neal's albums have come out, and accept them at face value. The songs, their arrangements, and how they were all performed. I rarely listen to his original demos, because I feel like the final work is just more powerful, especially after collaborating with someone. Hearing the transformation from demo to release is fascinating for me, and it really speaks to the musicianship of all parties involved. Yes, these are often Neal's solo albums, but he invites and accept the collaborative natures of Mike and Randy, and if he wants things his way, then they'll happen his way (see above examples from other posts about TSOAD being a double album, or re-writing TGA to be a sequel).

If anyone wanted a purely Neal-only experience for his music, just buy and listen to his demos and nothing more. It's the raw and original vision he had. Otherwise, I think hearing his work through the lenses of collaboration make for the best work he can release. That said, I am extremely excited for Sola Gratia, and I think by the time my Rush Survivor is done, I may begin a new Neal Morse Survivor (since it's been 5 years).

-Marc.

[bosk1]

Good stuff, Marc! 

[KevShmev]

That tells me that when it comes to Neal's solo albums, Portnoy will give his ideas and suggestions, but is not going to force any option too hard since he knows it is ultimately Neal's album.  That is why I do not buy the theory that he "forced" Neal to make any changes he didn't want to make when it came to One.

Again, you guys are putting words into my mouth for some reason. I didn't say or imply Mike "forced" Neal do to anything. As I have said before, it may as well just be a case of Mike really preferring it one way and advocating for that and Neal ultimately coming to the conclusion that both ways work for him, so why not give Mike his will. That is not forcing anything at all. It's how band situations work. But it also does not mean that only because Neal went with Mike's suggestion, he thinks his original demo wasn't as good. It may as well just be the case that he thought both worked fine or each had its pros and cons. Again, that is just regular band stuff.

I put forced in quotes for a reason, that way you wouldn't think I was putting words in your mouth, yet you still thought it.

Question: do you think The Gates of Delirium by Yes is not good songwriting either?  Because, like The Separated Man, this is a long epic where the song goes into a radically different direction in the second half than what was done in the first half.

I mostly like Gates. It doesn't have a lot of connection between its parts, but it follows a clear direction throughout and each part fulfills its function (introduction, song proper, instrumental journey, extended coda), so at least it is clearly structured in that respect. Now, if they extensively quoted And You And I in the middle, I would probably like it significantly less. 

Okay, but that wouldn't have made as much sense, since Close to the Edge is not a concept album, while One is, although it's not unheard of for one song to reference another on a non-concept album (see: the Space Dye Vest tease near the end of The Mirror on Awake).  On Neal's concept albums (whether solo, with Spock's, NMB or Transatlantic), quoting part of another song in a new song is not unusual.  It's pretty much a regular thing.  To me, the song The Man's Gone theme is done well as we get a tease of it as sorts in the proper song, and then we get the fleshed out melody and journey in The Separated Man. 

[bosk1]

To me, the song The Man's Gone theme is done well as we get a tease of it as sorts in the proper song, and then we get the fleshed out melody and journey in The Separated Man. 

Yes!  It is such a key theme in the story that it really NEEDED to be revisited the way it was.  Some serious goosebump moments the way that is done.

[ronnibran]

I personally can't imagine removing any part of any song from One.  If I look at all the albums I have loved throughout my life, this is about as close to perfect for me as they come.  One and Sola Scriptura both fall into that category.

[KevShmev]

To me, the song The Man's Gone theme is done well as we get a tease of it as sorts in the proper song, and then we get the fleshed out melody and journey in The Separated Man. 

Yes!  It is such a key theme in the story that it really NEEDED to be revisited the way it was.  Some serious goosebump moments the way that is done.

For sure.  Plus, when considering the flow and pacing of the record, the way the record ended up makes far more sense.  After the long and epic The Creation, it was better to have a shorter, mellow song before blasting into the rocking and thundering Author of Confusion, rather than a long-ish tune with an extended instrumental section.  Even super proggy albums need breathers, and The Man's Gone provided a great one sandwiched in between the first and third tracks.

[Stadler]

Just my opinion, nothing more, and based only on the videos I've been watching, but it strikes me that for Mike, Randy and Neal, the act of creating is as important (or more) than the playing.  I've frequently sort of wondered why Mike has dedicated so much time and energy to Neal, especially after the split with DT.   Watching the... I think it was the momentum tour, with the level of travel (shlepping their own bags and equipment, etc.) and wondered "why? He can't be doing it for the money." There is the faith angle; Neal and Randy are more in tune with the notion of "praying on it" than Mike seems to be.    And yet it strikes me that the moment of collaboration might actually be the reward for all of this. 

Of course, I'll admit this freely:  it might be projecting on my part, because I'll cop to being a tad jealous of Neal.  That's got to be exhilarating to walk into a room with two other guys, close the door, and 72 hours later come out with something as powerful as some of these albums are.   (I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that I'm a sort of "positivity" guy in my music, and NOTHING I listen to is as uplifting, musically, as Neal Morse's work.   I'll put on one of his CDs while working on my Jeep in the garage, and I'll unconciously find myself either "dancing" around the garage, or underneath tapping away with my tools...  it's crazy.  And to be there at the moment of creation? It's got to be empowering.)

[Kyo]

All this talk about One has prompted me to put on the Making Of One DVDs from the Inner Circle, since I'm not curious about those sessions. I'm typing up direct quotes from the video to share here so shed some light on how those sessions went, with some of it being Neal's (and Randy's) thoughts on the sessions long afterwards (after reviewing the material for the video).

I'll update this post with more quotes as I go along, but here are some tidbits that I've found interesting enough to share for now:

Big thanks for this, Marc! Very interesting stuff.

Between the "that was one of Mike's ideas as well. He had a lot of ideas about sections and where they seemed to work best in the album", the "'Well, if you guys think that, then I'll trust you.' And I'll go that way, even though sometimes I might not agree initially", the hilarious "I kinda had to talk him into having ..." and the very telling "you don't have that much time to make decisions. You gotta make decisions pretty quickly" I don't see how these quotes could be confirming my previous assumptions about how the structure of The Separated Man came to be any more. 

Again, thanks for this! Just one more thing: Did the bonus tracks, especially Back to the Garden, ever come up in those videos? Where exactly it fits in, why it was dropped?

[The Letter M]

All this talk about One has prompted me to put on the Making Of One DVDs from the Inner Circle, since I'm not curious about those sessions. I'm typing up direct quotes from the video to share here so shed some light on how those sessions went, with some of it being Neal's (and Randy's) thoughts on the sessions long afterwards (after reviewing the material for the video).

I'll update this post with more quotes as I go along, but here are some tidbits that I've found interesting enough to share for now:

Big thanks for this, Marc! Very interesting stuff.

Between the "that was one of Mike's ideas as well. He had a lot of ideas about sections and where they seemed to work best in the album", the "'Well, if you guys think that, then I'll trust you.' And I'll go that way, even though sometimes I might not agree initially", the hilarious "I kinda had to talk him into having ..." and the very telling "you don't have that much time to make decisions. You gotta make decisions pretty quickly" I don't see how these quotes could be confirming my previous assumptions about how the structure of The Separated Man came to be any more. 

Again, thanks for this! Just one more thing: Did the bonus tracks, especially Back to the Garden, ever come up in those videos? Where exactly it fits in, why it was dropped?

They did show some footage of Mike tracking drums to "Back To The Garden", but Neal only really talked about having done the covers with Randy and Mike, and not on the original songs.

Personally, I still place "Back To The Garden" between "The Creation" and "The Man's Gone", as it just seems to make the most sense.

Seems like those three songs (BTTG, NTB, and KJ) were all strictly written by Neal and only had performances by Mike (and Randy, I'm pretty sure?) during the final day of recording. At least that's the impression that I get from this interview, where Neal says "We had extra material and we had an extra day. It was just a day of fun and doing what spontaneously occurred to us." and that BTTG and NTB "are demos for 'One' for which Mike has redone the drumming." Sounds like Neal put them out there for Randy and Mike to simply cover his original demo parts with the intention of trying to squeeze them into the album (like "King Jesus") but they ended up on the bonus disc.

I can only assume that because they were all shorter songs and just demos that Neal had the guys cover his parts on that they were easy pickings for the bonus disc, rather than the demos that Randy and Mike had worked with Neal on during the sessions.

Has anyone asked Neal, in the last few years or so, why he never played "Back To The Garden" during Morsefest 2014?

-Marc.

[Kyo]

After spending more time with the restored One album I've come to the conclusion that it's better off without the extra tracks from the bonus CD. For one, the production on those isn't quite there, so they stick out sound-wise. And they're both kinda lightweight songs that don't really add that much while using some motifs from other songs that feel a bit overused as a result.

[KevShmev]

I am a big fan of King Jesus and Back to the Garden, but I've always thought One worked best without them.  The flow and the way it was finished and put on CD was the best version.

[bosk1]

I had not heard them until way after the fact.  I bought the standard edition of One, and did not even know about those tracks until a long time afterward.  I'm with Kev.  I like them a lot, but I feel that the album works better without them.  They are great bonus tracks that add color and texture to the creative process of the album, but don't really add much to the concept or flow of the album itself. 

[The Letter M]

I guess I am the odd one out when it comes to One. When I first got into Neal's music, around summer of 2005, I sought out the special/limited edition immediately as I was aware of its existence by then. According to my Amazon order history, it looks like I got the limited edition of One back in February 2006, so just a few months after ordering Question Mark from Amazon. Since then, I've only really listened to One in the "full version" with all 11 songs, with the three bonus disc tracks re-inserted into the running order, and so I've come to accept that as my true version of the album. I feel like it would be weird for me to go and listen to the album without those songs in it, especially "King Jesus", which is such an uplifting song and really feels like a high point in the album for me.

-Marc.

[bosk1]

Well, if you want a take on Neal's material that IS pretty close to blasphemy, here are a couple:
1.  Watching TSOAD live right now, and am reminded that Breath of Angels is SO bad at its job of closing out side 1.  Just not a very good song.  You can tell exactly what Neal is going for, and what he is going for is awesome, and the song just fails so hard at achieving it.  This reason alone puts TSOAD below TGA.
2.  ? is Neal's second worst album, behind Lifeline.

[KevShmev]

Who ordered the bad takes?

[bosk1]

Hey, I didn't even come after T2 in that post.

[The Letter M]

Who ordered the bad takes?

I dunno, but Bosk is serving them up! 

Now I'm curious as to how you rank Neal's albums, Bosk. Is it time for another rank session?

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

The question there then becomes, are we doing solo Neal and NMB albums together?  Do we include his non-prog albums from his solo career?  Do we include Spock's Beard, Transatlantic and Flying Colors albums? 

[bosk1]

Happy to oblige...

1.  One:  Undisputed.  This is my favorite album of all time, as I've said.
2.  The Great Adventure:  I love this album.  It isn't perfect, but SO good.  They knocked it out of the park, and to this day, I'm still baffled at how MP and Eric's wife could have somehow been offended at my review, which was nothing but effusive praise.
3.  Sola Scriptura:  Feels like it meanders a bit at times, and almost feels like Neal was starting to maybe hit a wall with the concept album concept, but he still knocks it out of the park overall.  It was hard to not put this at #2.
4.  Testimony:  Really close with TSOAD.  But I just really have a soft spot for this album.  There is a section toward the end of side 1 that I think may just be the best few minutes of prog ever composed.
5.  Similitude:  Great album.
6.  The Grand Experiment:  This album caught me completely by surprise by how good it was.  Neal's albums are always happy and upbeat, but there is just something about this album that exudes "fun."
7.  Momentum:  I didn't care for Lifeline much (although it does have some good moments).  This felt like a big step in the right direction to get back on track.
8.  T2:  It's a...good album.  There are some really standout moments, like Time Changer.  But it so pales in comparison to T1, and it's hard not to compare the two.  The bonus disk has some cool moments as well, but for some reason, I never spent much time with those songs as I should have. 
9.  ?:  It's not bad.  But I never have much desire to listen to it either.  The best moments of it seem to find their way into Neal's sets, but those aren't enough to make me want to hear the whole album.
10.  Lifeline:  It completely made sense for Neal to NOT do a concept album.  As with anything Neal writes, there are some good songs on here (and, contrary to Neal's opinion, Leviathan is not one of them).  But I think this is the least of his solo efforts. 

The question there then becomes, are we doing solo Neal and NMB albums together? 

Yes.

Do we include his non-prog albums from his solo career?  Do we include Spock's Beard, Transatlantic and Flying Colors albums? 

No.

[KevShmev]

The Exorcist is a prog Neal solo album...not ranking that one?

If I had to rank the 11, I'd go like this:

1. The Similitude of a Dream
2. One
3. Testimony 2
4. ?
5. The Grand Experiment
6. The Great Adventure
7. Sola Scriptura
8. Testimony
9. Momentum
10. The Exorcist
11. Lifeline

[The Letter M]

The Exorcist is a prog Neal solo album...not ranking that one?

Maybe only counting the ones with Mike involved?

I'll share my ranking later, I'l have to sit and think about it for a little bit!

-Marc.

[bosk1]

The Exorcist is a prog Neal solo album...not ranking that one?

It honestly didn't even occur to me to include it.  Not only is it a completely different format, but Neal has so many guests taking such more prominent roles that, even aside from the format, it's a completely different animal.  So, like I said, it didn't even enter my mind.

Now that you mention it, and I try to grapple with what to do with it, it is really a challenge for the reasons I mentioned that it didn't occur to me. 

I guess just ranking it in terms of how much I like it, I would probably put it either just above or just below Similitude.  Probably below.  But it depends on my mood.  Overall, I really like it and think it is VERY well done.  It might rank higher, but there are a couple of things that bother me a little bit. 

The first is Ted Leonard in the role of Jesus.  I really like Ted's voice.  I was not familiar with him prior to his appearance in TA.  I really liked what he added to them.  Great musician.  And great singer.  I just don't think his voice is suited for this particular role.  His pitch and range are EXCELLENT.  But a lot of the other voices on the album sound so much more powerful than his.  I get that Neal wanted the voice of Jesus to have a certain emotional resonance and expressiveness, and be very gentle.  But, especially given the theme of the album, I also feel like it needs to have a certain power, command, and gravitas that just doesn't seem to be part of Ted's repertoire.  I'm glad he was on the album.  I just really wish he was in a different role. 

The ending feels like a bit of a mess.  The Greatest Love of All is a fine song.  But it doesn't have the power of a closer, IMO (and, yes, I know it is the penultimate song, and not the actual closer in terms of being the last track; but LHCMN(R) is not the finale--it
s a reprise).  And thematically, it feels very out of left field.  And having it primarily as a duet between Jesus and Mary Magdalene, it brings up weird connotations that aren't there in the Biblical account, and I feel like Neal was perhaps influenced just a bit too much in this area by Jesus Christ Superstar. 

I like the album a lot.  I listen to it a lot, and I think it's really well done.  And I love that Neal's deviations from the source material can rightly be classified as creative interpretation, rather than deviation and changing the substance of anything, for the most part.  So, please, don't take any of what I am saying as me not liking it.  But those little issues keep it from ranking higher for me.  And I guess a lesser issue is just that it's a NM album with very little NM on vocals, which isn't wrong, but it just feels odd.