Mt. Rushmore of Hard Rock/Metal Guitarists

[wolfking]

I think we have a difficult tension in that if this is half a metal list and we're also looking for "mainstream" breakthrough.  In that sense, there's very little to choose from, because not much actual metal that has ever become truly household music.  If Iommi and Dimebag aren't well-known enough, then it's really only a hard rock list.

Pretty much my exact thinking of what I posted.  You just articulated it better.

[bl5150]

A shame Gary Moore never crossed into the mainstream.

He did - even in Australia - but only around the time of Still Got The Blues .  I love Gary as a player but he is also more an evolution of other players than an innovator.

I'd be happy enough with

Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page

I've never been a huge Led Zeppelin fan , so years ago I wouldn't have included Page but having formally studied him a bit I would allow him into the "innovative" category.   Malmsteen would be close in some respects......totally changed the game in the guitarhead world but was arguably just an evolution of Blackmore/Rhoads and was never really mainstream.

[Samsara]

2. The guitarist must have crossed over to mainstream appreciation. Meaning, it can't be a guy no one has heard of who is great...the person must be someone who achieved worldwide acclaim for the songs they wrote.

Does anybody who isn't a metal / rock fan even knows who Tony Iommi is? Ozzy Osbourne is the only recognizable name for people outside our world.

Perhaps not. But they know who Black Sabbath is, and that sound of Black Sabbath, and that doomy riff style. And all that is Iommi. Like I said, subjective, but for me, it works.

I think we have a difficult tension if this is half a metal list and we're also looking for "mainstream" breakthrough.  In that sense, there's very little to choose from, because not much actual metal has ever become truly household music.  If Iommi and Dimebag aren't well-known enough, then it's really only a hard rock list. 

Fair point, but again, hard rock and metal was not as clearly defined back in the 70s and 80s as they are now (overly so, IMO, but that's a thread for a different day).

The tension though (aka "difficult choice") is the whole point. Metal/Hard Rock really is interchangeable to my ears...up until thrash metal. Then I think it really separates. But all of that, and this entire Rushmore thing is so incredibly subjective.

What I do like is that most (not all) really give it to EVH and Hendrix. The debate is on the other two. And that's great, healthy back and forth. I hear the arguments about Page for sure. And he is probably my own personal frontrunner for 4th, given the criteria I established for myself. But I'm still not sold. But I'm 100 percent on EVH, Hendrix and Iommi.

[wolfking]

A shame Gary Moore never crossed into the mainstream.

He did - even in Australia - but only around the time of Still Got The Blues .  I love Gary as a player but he is also more an evolution of other players than an innovator.

I'd be happy enough with

Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page

I've never been a huge Led Zeppelin fan , so years ago I wouldn't have included Page but having formally studied him a bit I would allow him into the "innovative" category.   Malmsteen would be close in some respects......totally changed the game in the guitarhead world but was arguably just an evolution of Blackmore/Rhoads and was never really mainstream.

Yeah, I thought it would only be that album that would have given him any exposure.  it's funny, first time I saw him was on one of the foxtel music channels back in the day.  Music Max or whatever and they played a live version of SGTB.  I still remember watching him play that outro solo for the first time.  It was well into my guitar playing years but I remember the exact moment where I thought, 'holy shit, who the fuck is this guy!?'  Incredible.

I hate Page but I think that top 4 there is probably acceptable.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Fair point, but again, hard rock and metal was not as clearly defined back in the 70s and 80s as they are now (overly so, IMO, but that's a thread for a different day).

The tension though (aka "difficult choice") is the whole point. Metal/Hard Rock really is interchangeable to my ears...up until thrash metal. Then I think it really separates. But all of that, and this entire Rushmore thing is so incredibly subjective.

Yeah, in the 70s KISS, Alice Cooper, AC/DC, Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, all kinds of stuff was being called "metal", and occasionally will still get called that way by some people.  I think you start to get some separation on Black Sabbath's Master of Reality and Priest's Sin After Sin, but things don't really start taking off until the 80s.  But even then it's tricky because if you bring in thrash, then it's blending into a different direction, into hardcore punk rather than hard rock. 

[EPICVIEW]

really just too difficult..

Hendrix

Page

EVH

Blackmore

Malmsteen


Really hard to leave out Tipton, Iommi, Randy, Gary Moore,  ...

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If you want hard rock AND metal the list is going to get a little weird. You could conceivably have Page and Dimebag on the same Mt even though their styles were extremely different.

Hard Rock and Metal are so big that each could have its own.

Hard Rock should be Jimi, EVH, probably Jeff Beck given how wide his influence was (even though I am not a particularly big fan) and maybe Blackmore although he could be swapped. You probably could throw in Slash. Was he a great innovator? No. But his influence and classic solos reached more than most. The list is too hard because there are so many from different time periods. Steve Vai should probably be on the list. He was in Whitesnake, which was mainstream so that should count. Vai's influence on guitarists cannot be understated. In the last decade especially, we are just starting to see how lasting his influence was, as more young guitarists in their 20s incorporate his style and licks into their own.

Metal is also very complicated. The great innovator Tommy Iommi needs to be there, but after him who knows. I guess you need to throw in someone from Metallica, which is the likely the most well known and influential metal act of all time, even though I don't think either of their guitarists is particularly worthy on an individual basis. I'll say something controversial: John Petrucci should be on the Mt. The guy helped invent an entire genre and influenced a generation of guitar players. He is leaps and bounds above 99% of metal guitarists and therefore should be on it. Pull Me Under was a hit.

In the end the only two certainties are Hendrix and EVH. There is a pretty long tail afterwards depending on how into guitar you are. But at the end of the day there is no doubt those two are the GOATs who transcend time (see what I did there?!) and preference.

[coz]

I propose Kurt Cobain.  I feel that he meets the criteria in spades.  Known, loved and emulated by millions.  I don't feel it can be argued that we was quite the game changer.

My monument includes Van Halen, Hendrix, Page and Cobain

Others I considered are Townshend and Frusciante.  Though how can you have Mt. RUSHmore without Lifeson? 

[wolfking]

How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Cobain is a really weird one.  On one hand, it's hard to deny that he almost single-handedly shifted the music landscape for awhile, and is still quite well-regarded by many decades later.  Maybe it's hard to say because I'm not really a Nirvana fan, but it's challenging to articulate exactly what he did that was so different than what the punk bands did over a decade prior, other than more angular songwriting.  It was basically a repeat of the shift in the late 70s. 

[Adami]

Yea. I’d say Cobaine was innovative with song writing. Not really guitar playing.

[MirrorMask]

Fair point, but again, hard rock and metal was not as clearly defined back in the 70s and 80s as they are now (overly so, IMO, but that's a thread for a different day).

The tension though (aka "difficult choice") is the whole point. Metal/Hard Rock really is interchangeable to my ears...up until thrash metal. Then I think it really separates. But all of that, and this entire Rushmore thing is so incredibly subjective.

Yeah, in the 70s KISS, Alice Cooper, AC/DC, Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, all kinds of stuff was being called "metal", and occasionally will still get called that way by some people.  I think you start to get some separation on Black Sabbath's Master of Reality and Priest's Sin After Sin, but things don't really start taking off until the 80s.  But even then it's tricky because if you bring in thrash, then it's blending into a different direction, into hardcore punk rather than hard rock.

In the end these things are bound to evolution and of limits being stretched. See it like sunset, when the sun goes down you can call it "dark". But then the night approaches and is even "darker", so what was arguabily "not-day", is certainly not as dark as the pitch black night.

Also, what's a "tall" building? the Great Pyramid was the tallest building for millennia. Then some gothic churches were. Then some skyscrapers were. Are gothic churches no longer tall? no, they are, but we have skyscrapers now that are taller than anything else.

Same with hard rock / metal. It was an evolution, it's hard to determine the exact moment something became "metal" just like it's hard to determine the precise moment when the day is no longer day, but night (that's what twilight is for, the passage between the two times of the day).

[WilliamMunny]

I propose Kurt Cobain.  I feel that he meets the criteria in spades.  Known, loved and emulated by millions.  I don't feel it can be argued that we was quite the game changer.

My monument includes Van Halen, Hendrix, Page and Cobain

Others I considered are Townshend and Frusciante.  Though how can you have Mt. RUSHmore without Lifeson? 

Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.

Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.

That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.

The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.

After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.

Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"

Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.

While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.

[Skeever]

Hendrix, absolutely.
EVH, absolutely.

As "homer" as it may sound, I'm very inclined to include Petrucci.
Not for DT specifically, but just look at the JPMM.

JP owns an entire generation (at least) of rock/metal player, and his guitar is THE prestige instrument of the day.
That should count for a lot.

[WilliamMunny]

How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?

I personally feel his 'less-is-more' approach to everything—chords, tone, leads, etc.—was his innovation. He basically ushered in a second D.I.Y/Punk-adjacent wave where guitar became something that 'anyone' with the patience to learn a few chords can play.

My post above explains it better, but I think his lasting inspiration plays into this as well.

[KevShmev]

Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here , I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.

Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation.  Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.

[TAC]

Yea. I’d say Cobaine was innovative with song writing. Not really guitar playing.

Not really the song writing either. He was simply a guy with perfect timing and manner.

[WilliamMunny]

Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here , I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.

Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation.  Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.

Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.

Also, why not just quote me, rather than summarizing my words?

The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me

[KevShmev]

Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here , I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.

Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation.  Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.

Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.

The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me

No, no, not a dig at all, merely saying that if something as minor as "less is more" is considered innovative, especially since he was hardly the first to do it, then I can argue that certain other things most would consider not majorly innovative are in fact innovative.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?

I personally feel his 'less-is-more' approach to everything—chords, tone, leads, etc.—was his innovation. He basically ushered in a second D.I.Y/Punk-adjacent wave where guitar became something that 'anyone' with the patience to learn a few chords can play.

That's the thing though, I'm not quite sure what he did in terms of the idea of simplifying things that the 70s punk bands hadn't already done, he just used different gear. 

[WilliamMunny]

Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here , I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.

Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation.  Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.

Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.

The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me

No, no, not a dig at all, merely saying that if something as minor as "less is more" is considered innovative, especially since he was hardly the first to do it, then I can argue that certain other things most would consider not majorly innovative are in fact innovative.

Fair enough.

I've been living on about 3 hours of sleep for the past few weeks on account of a teething-baby, so I'm probably viewing everything I read a little sideways right now.

[WilliamMunny]

How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?

I personally feel his 'less-is-more' approach to everything—chords, tone, leads, etc.—was his innovation. He basically ushered in a second D.I.Y/Punk-adjacent wave where guitar became something that 'anyone' with the patience to learn a few chords can play.

That's the thing though, I'm not quite sure what he did in terms of the idea of simplifying things that the 70s punk bands hadn't already done, he just used different gear.

Agree whole-heartedly.

I was merely speaking the lasting impression he made on future generations from the perspective of a guitar teacher.

[TAC]

Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.

Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.

That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.

The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.

After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.

Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"

Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.

While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.

I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.

[Skeever]

Why Cobain?

Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?

She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/

We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.

Of course she's disqualified by the fact it's a Hard Rock/Metal Rushmore.
If you branch out to everyone, there's great non-rock players past and present who may need to be included as well.

[TAC]

Why Cobain?

Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?

She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/

We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.

Kev Shmev in 3. 2. 1..

[WilliamMunny]

Why Cobain?

Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?

She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/

We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.

Of course she's disqualified by the fact it's a Hard Rock/Metal Rushmore.
If you branch out to everyone, there's great non-rock players past and present who may need to be included as well.

Check back in 20 years and she just might be on there

Fact of the matter is, 20 years from now, names from the '70s (like Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page — trust me, it pains me to type this) are going to be no different than names from the '50s like Johnny Ace and Etta James.

Our children are going to be in their 30's and 40's, raising kids of their own, and Taylor Swift's going to be playing stadiums. It's just the way of things.

I, for one, am happy that she actually plays an instrument...look at the charts and find me another top-tier pop star that knows how to tune a guitar (or banjo) that isn't a straight-up country singer.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Why Cobain?

Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?

She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/

We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.

Hardly new either, I'm sure Elvis inspired many to pick up a guitar, not realizing for him it was more of a prop and James Burton did the dirty work. 

[WilliamMunny]

Why Cobain?

Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?

She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/

We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.

Hardly new either, I'm sure Elvis inspired many to pick up a guitar, not realizing for him it was more of a prop and James Burton did the dirty work.

Right you are!

Look, my all-time favorite artist is Miles Davis, and I can count on one hand how many students have said they've heard of him. Kinda breaks my heart.

[Stadler]

I think we have a difficult tension if this is half a metal list and we're also looking for "mainstream" breakthrough.  In that sense, there's very little to choose from, because not much actual metal has ever become truly household music.  If Iommi and Dimebag aren't well-known enough, then it's really only a hard rock list.

I'm not sure any of mine qualify as "heavy metal", even Blackmore.   

[Stadler]

Cobain is a really weird one.  On one hand, it's hard to deny that he almost single-handedly shifted the music landscape for awhile, and is still quite well-regarded by many decades later.  Maybe it's hard to say because I'm not really a Nirvana fan, but it's challenging to articulate exactly what he did that was so different than what the punk bands did over a decade prior, other than more angular songwriting.  It was basically a repeat of the shift in the late 70s.

HE shifted the landscape - I say grudgingly, since I think he is dramatically overrated; he's the paradigm of the guy that had he lived, he'd be one of many, not singular - but his guitar playing didn't, unless you include all those people that said "wow, he sucks, I can do that!" and went and bought a guitar.  If you dig into Cobain's influences, he's not NEARLY as innovative as Rolling Stone magazine would have you believe. 

His talent?  Writing catchy pop tunes, and being a lovable dick. 

[KevShmev]

Fair enough.

I've been living on about 3 hours of sleep for the past few weeks on account of a teething-baby, so I'm probably viewing everything I read a little sideways right now.

No worries!  I admittedly was trying to get out a post or two before I had to drive to work, so I might have been a bit more direct and/or short than I intended.  Apologies if that came off badly.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Cobain is a really weird one.  On one hand, it's hard to deny that he almost single-handedly shifted the music landscape for awhile, and is still quite well-regarded by many decades later.  Maybe it's hard to say because I'm not really a Nirvana fan, but it's challenging to articulate exactly what he did that was so different than what the punk bands did over a decade prior, other than more angular songwriting.  It was basically a repeat of the shift in the late 70s.

HE shifted the landscape - I say grudgingly, since I think he is dramatically overrated; he's the paradigm of the guy that had he lived, he'd be one of many, not singular - but his guitar playing didn't, unless you include all those people that said "wow, he sucks, I can do that!" and went and bought a guitar.  If you dig into Cobain's influences, he's not NEARLY as innovative as Rolling Stone magazine would have you believe. 

His talent?  Writing catchy pop tunes, and being a lovable dick. 

Yeah, I don't really understand it myself, but I've heard it from enough different people that I believe it.  I used to be pretty anti-Cobain a long time ago, but so many musicians I respect give him props that I've stopped trying to pass judgement. 

[Skeever]

I think if Cobain applies to Hard Rock/Metal, so does Elvis, and many others. If we're talking about Rock in the general sense, including alt rock, etc., then surely Cobain applies.

[KevShmev]

Why Cobain?

Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?

She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/

We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.

Kev Shmev in 3. 2. 1..

Jokes aside, it's a good point.  Just like Cobain inspired many to pick up an electric guitar, Swift inspired many to pick up an acoustic guitar.   Neither is notable for their guitar playing in any real way, but their songs inspired many to pick up a guitar and play them.

[Stadler]

Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here , I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.

Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation.  Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.

Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.

The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me

No, no, not a dig at all, merely saying that if something as minor as "less is more" is considered innovative, especially since he was hardly the first to do it, then I can argue that certain other things most would consider not majorly innovative are in fact innovative.

So, since we're on the "less is more" kick, the King of that is Andy Summers (probably an influence on Cobain as well).  With respect, since it's all opinion, but none of these guys belong on a Guitar Player Mt. Rushmore, IMO. 

For me, and this is EVH and Hendrix in spades, is that "rush" component.  You watch them and you get a rush of adrenaline.  Dare I say (and I'm sorry to be crude here) but the kind of playing that makes young girls need a change of clothes.  I'm not sure that's some dude in a tie playing jazz chords.  There's an emotion to this stuff that transcends the music, transcends the genre, transcends the demographic.   EVH had it.  When someone like Michael Jackson - about as mainstream as it gets - needed someone to "play rockstar" on his hit single, who did he turn to?  Not Steve Lukather, who is arguably one of the best technical guitarists on the planet, not Andy Summers, no one but... Eddie.

Page had it.   I'm not removing Blackmore, because he's my favorite musician of all time (and a lot of those guys that came out of England in the '60s say he - and Beck - were the real players), but honestly, I'm not even sure HE had it.