Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[SuperTaco]

Whenever MM shares his musical intelligence, I can only be impressed. He is on a completely different level from most drummers.

[The Clairvoyant]

I'm so curious how next dream theater album will be, I hope it will be more on the vein of metal and not progressive rock like the last two!

[Lucien]

I'm so curious how next dream theater album will be, I hope it will be more on the vein of metal and not progressive rock like the last two!

I disagree. If they make something heavier, 9 times out of 10 in modern Dream Theater it will sound (quality of sound) bad. To have a big album of that just doesn't appeal to me.

[Zydar]

James on his Twitter:

"Hey Everyone, Hope all is great at your end. Can't wait to get in the studio with my Bruthas and create the next album. Raaaawwwwk."

[BlobVanDam]

James on his Twitter:

"Hey Everyone, Hope all is great at your end. Can't wait to get in the studio with my Bruthas and create the next album. Raaaawwwwk."

I'm calling it now. The Count of Tuscany pt 2 - Scenes From a Vineyard.

[JayOctavarium]

The Count of Tuscany pt 2: BACK TO THE VILLA

[The Clairvoyant]

I'm so curious how next dream theater album will be, I hope it will be more on the vein of metal and not progressive rock like the last two!

I disagree. If they make something heavier, 9 times out of 10 in modern Dream Theater it will sound (quality of sound) bad. To have a big album of that just doesn't appeal to me.

I understand but I wanted to mean simply "progressive metal" but more progressive clearly!! Dream Theater properly are indeed "progressive metal".
Anyway I like the last two albums both simply I want to hear something more strong and a new drums sound!!

[Mosh]

MM UPDATE

Some of you are wondering what I'm playing while snowed in. Mainly, I am redoing my leg technique to not hit as hard. Mind you, what I'm putting below is an exercise for being snowed in. It is not meant to be "groovy" mannnn smile emoticon I'm working on lighter played single foot tempos between patterns that keep my mind occupied.

 Here's an example: My ride side plays a 19/8 sticking, while the left hand plays points that resemble 17/8, while the left foot plays the in between 16th notes, while my mind is basing the whole thing in say, a 6 or 7-tuplet, or just in 4/4. I then flip it to totally lefty, or I reassign limbs with no 'side' preference, which is actually easy after knowing the sound of the whole mess. The bad thing is that there are no limbs to reflect what my mind hears, so it is kind of useless unless there's music to designate the "one" of every 7, or whatever my base time tuplet is. No groove to it if you can't hear the base groove tuplet. Anyway... I know... "make a video !" comments are coming. Rudess will make music of this, trust me!

 I'm also working on electronic kit sounding simple, 4/4 grooves using some over the bar ride patterns just to give it some habanero spice. It is stuff that kids can feel, so it sort of pleases all.

Gotta say I'm not thrilled to read this. I get it Mike, you're a superhuman drummer, now show me you can groove.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

MM UPDATE

Some of you are wondering what I'm playing while snowed in. Mainly, I am redoing my leg technique to not hit as hard. Mind you, what I'm putting below is an exercise for being snowed in. It is not meant to be "groovy" mannnn smile emoticon I'm working on lighter played single foot tempos between patterns that keep my mind occupied.

 Here's an example: My ride side plays a 19/8 sticking, while the left hand plays points that resemble 17/8, while the left foot plays the in between 16th notes, while my mind is basing the whole thing in say, a 6 or 7-tuplet, or just in 4/4. I then flip it to totally lefty, or I reassign limbs with no 'side' preference, which is actually easy after knowing the sound of the whole mess. The bad thing is that there are no limbs to reflect what my mind hears, so it is kind of useless unless there's music to designate the "one" of every 7, or whatever my base time tuplet is. No groove to it if you can't hear the base groove tuplet. Anyway... I know... "make a video !" comments are coming. Rudess will make music of this, trust me!

 I'm also working on electronic kit sounding simple, 4/4 grooves using some over the bar ride patterns just to give it some habanero spice. It is stuff that kids can feel, so it sort of pleases all.

Gotta say I'm not thrilled to read this. I get it Mike, you're a superhuman drummer, now show me you can groove.

If you look at the context of the quote, there's nothing to worry about. The man is trying to push the technical boundaries of his craft. Whatever "groove" is, it certainly isn't at the technical boundary. A drummer who can play some basic beats and fills could have "groove." Whatever groove Mangini has is going to be there no matter what; anything that those on this forum might define as groovy is likely something he can already do. So he doesn't need to be doing exercises to strengthen it.

[Mosh]

I know, but this is the sort of stuff that ends up on the DT albums. I guess that's my issue with his drum parts on the last two records: it's technically impressive but there's not much musicality to it. I have no doubt that he can groove, the issue is that he doesn't seem to have any interest in it. In a lot of cases less is more, one of my favorite Mangini moments so far is the simple 12/8 in Illumination Theory.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Which is fine--I'm not a big fan of the drumming either (BTFW excepted; that's great). Just yesterday I was listening to MP-era DT and kept thinking "Man, I miss these memorable fills." But should he be doing exercises on simple 12/8 riffs he could play in his sleep, or should he be prepping complex stuff just in case the band has some use for it? There's a lot of talk here on DTF about the band being closed-off to weird stuff (particularly from JR) in favor of the "DT sound." Just as we're not going to get a ragtime album, it seems odd to expect that we're going to get an album of crazy grooveless polyrhythms just because one member does some work on them in his spare time. Maybe one or two crop up somewhere, and they might work or might not, but MM's most extreme playing isn't suddenly going to be this dominating force in the DT sound.

[Kotowboy]

James on his Twitter:

"Hey Everyone, Hope all is great at your end. Can't wait to get in the studio with my Bruthas and create the next album. Raaaawwwwk."

I'm calling it now. The Count of Tuscany pt 2 - Scenes From a Vineyard.

Better not be Maynard Keenan's Vineyard or the next DT album will take 9 years.

[rumborak]

James on his Twitter:

"Hey Everyone, Hope all is great at your end. Can't wait to get in the studio with my Bruthas and create the next album. Raaaawwwwk."

Who the hell *is* in the studio at this point?

[Mladen]

Did anyone confirm being in the studio?

[Prog Snob]

James on his Twitter:

"Hey Everyone, Hope all is great at your end. Can't wait to get in the studio with my Bruthas and create the next album. Raaaawwwwk."

Who the hell *is* in the studio at this point?

    Good question.  I guess Jordan and the Johns are proposing material to each other and John Myung is silently killing them with his mind.

[Sycsa]

"Groove" - thanks to DTF, this has become my most hated music related term, the basis of some of the most pointless arguments I can think of. Whenever someone uses it, especially in the same sentence with MM, I cringe.

[Zydar]

James on his Twitter:

"Hey Everyone, Hope all is great at your end. Can't wait to get in the studio with my Bruthas and create the next album. Raaaawwwwk."

Who the hell *is* in the studio at this point?

JM is sitting there alone, drinking his Starbucks, waiting for the other guys to show.

[BlackInk]

"Groove" - thanks to DTF, this has become my most hated music related term, the basis of some of the most pointless arguments I can think of. Whenever someone uses it, especially in the same sentence with MM, I cringe.

Why? I have probably missed those 'pointless arguments', so I can't quite relate to your comment one way or the other. So I'm not trying to contradict you here, just curious.

[King Postwhore]

"Groove" - thanks to DTF, this has become my most hated music related term, the basis of some of the most pointless arguments I can think of. Whenever someone uses it, especially in the same sentence with MM, I cringe.

Are you saying MM can't groove or does not grove in DT because it doesn't fit their style?

[erwinrafael]

"Groove" - thanks to DTF, this has become my most hated music related term, the basis of some of the most pointless arguments I can think of. Whenever someone uses it, especially in the same sentence with MM, I cringe.

Are you saying MM can't groove or does not grove in DT because it doesn't fit their style?

I think Sycsa is referring to the tendency of MM critics to repeat ad nauseum that MM can not groove, but when pressed for meaning, they can never really specify what not having a groove means. So instead of just straightforwardly saying that they just prefer MP over MM as a matter of taste, they throw the not having a groove argument to give their arguments some kind of gravitas.

[BlobVanDam]

"Groove" - thanks to DTF, this has become my most hated music related term, the basis of some of the most pointless arguments I can think of. Whenever someone uses it, especially in the same sentence with MM, I cringe.

Are you saying MM can't groove or does not grove in DT because it doesn't fit their style?

I think Sycsa is referring to the tendency of MM critics to repeat ad nauseum that MM can not groove, but when pressed for meaning, they can never really specify what not having a groove means. So instead of just straightforwardly saying that they just prefer MP over MM as a matter of taste, they throw the not having a groove argument to give their arguments some kind of gravitas.

Groove is groove, and groove can be hard to quantify in absolute terms because it's a subtle nuance, but it's a perfectly valid opinion. Groove is about the way a drummer accents dynamics and timing to give a pattern a certain sound beyond simply what is being played, usually creating a more energetic and exciting feel. It's why a MIDI file or drum machine completely lacks groove, because every beat has literally identical dynamics and perfectly metric timing throughout, which is why that criticism also ties into the discussion. I agree with Mosh, that the straightforward 12/8 beat in IT is one of my favourites from MM, because it's not about being mathematical or complex, it's a simple beat played hard.

It is not about preferring one drummer over another, it's a self contained opinion. It's fine to disagree with it, but don't dismiss it simply because you don't agree with it.

[erwinrafael]

Are we really going back to the groove thing again?

There is a technical definition of groove as a style of drumming (ala Jeff Porcaro), but as you say it can be defined as the "feel" of a song. The reason I dismiss some of these groove arguments is that "feel" is a very subjective thing. Whether one "feels" like moving to a drum pattern is most of the time really a matter of taste.

The lack of dynamics and too much precision argument also tends to be selective, chopping up parts of MM's drumming and magnifying the point as if it is something generalizable to the whole of MM's work. The drum machine caricature, is it applicable to to BITS? Can you program  a drum machine to sound like the drumming in IT? Is there no pulse in the drumming in BTV? Is there no dynamics in the drums in BAI?No groove in the playing of the rides and hihats in the instrumental of TLG, TBP and the stanzas of STR?

[BlobVanDam]

Everything we discuss is ultimately a matter of taste, so I don't see that as a valid reason to dismiss it.

[King Postwhore]

Porcaro and Chad Smith are great examples of Groove drummers.  Though if you listen to MM in Extreme, he grooved.  Sometimes a style doesn't fit with another style.

[erwinrafael]

Everything we discuss is ultimately a matter of taste, so I don't see that as a valid reason to dismiss it.

But stating "Mike Mangini DOES NOT KNOW how to groove" or "There IS NO DYNAMICS in Mike Mangini's drumming" does not come off as a statement of taste. It comes off as a statement of fact.

[Sycsa]

"Groove" - thanks to DTF, this has become my most hated music related term, the basis of some of the most pointless arguments I can think of. Whenever someone uses it, especially in the same sentence with MM, I cringe.

Are you saying MM can't groove or does not grove in DT because it doesn't fit their style?

I think Sycsa is referring to the tendency of MM critics to repeat ad nauseum that MM can not groove, but when pressed for meaning, they can never really specify what not having a groove means. So instead of just straightforwardly saying that they just prefer MP over MM as a matter of taste, they throw the not having a groove argument to give their arguments some kind of gravitas.

Basically this. Arguments based on "I can't explain it, but that's how I feel" are rarely productive. Also, DT is not a "groovy" type of music by default, so idk why is it suddenly such an important criteria in evaluating MM's performance.

[King Postwhore]

Because people want to find faults in MM because they like MP's playing better.  Like it's been said, it's a taste thing.

[Prog Snob]

People praised MM before he was in the band.  Now it's like their opinions changed. I don't get it. 

[King Postwhore]

The minority is always louder than the majority because the majority never speaks up.

[Prog Snob]

Or it can just be that people like to complain a lot.   

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

It would be healthier if we stopped discussing these matters and talk again once we have any real updates/material.


That would be nice, right.


It won't happen, though.

 

[Kotowboy]

My feelings regarding the drummers :

I liked MP a lot until he quit the band and it was revealed how much of a control freak he was.

I love MM as a person - genuinely grateful to be in the band and his technical abilities are off the charts.

As for their playing on DT albums - I really liked MP's rock approach more than MM's robotic technique.

I think MM's solos are incredibly dull - even as a drummer myself who understands what he's doing.

I wish MM would lay back a bit more and just feel the music a bit more and not go

" Oh this bit is in 15 - i'll play 12 over 16 and then one bar of 3 over 6 and then reverse it between my left and right side "

Just PLAY.





- But overall i'd rather have MM in the band than MP.

[Kotowboy]

Oh and Mangini can groove when he wants to...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI

[Prog Snob]

MM is super-talented and he can probably adapt to any style he wants to.  I  think he is far from boring and I really do like his tech talk.  It's what makes him so amazing.  He actually knows what he is playing and doesn't just pick up sticks and bang drums just because it sounds good.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't worry about any of that crap.  MM comes across as a great person, and he is definitely a technical beast on the kit.  As long as they keep making music I love, I don't care who is more technical or who grooves more.