Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Polarbear]

I can agree that the overall story of Rogue One beats TFA, at least now when we don't see the entire picture of the sequel trilogy yet, but the reason that I easily think TFA is the better movie is the characters. I remember walking out of TFA thinking "Rey was awesome!", and "I loved Kylo-Ren!", and "Poe was really cool!", and "Omg Han Solo was great!". Unfortunately, the only character I felt like that about after Rogue One was Darth Vader. Jyn was fine, Cassian was fine, K2 was a bit too on the nose with his constant humor, but otherwise fine. I liked Riz Ahmed's pilot, but it wasn't anything special.

What I remember from Rogue One will be the cool and very well done scenes, moments within the story. That's stuff I remember about TFA too, but the biggest thing I took away from that movie is the memory the great characters. You can put Rogue One's character's complexities in text all you like, but it doesn't change that I just didn't feel for them as strongly as I did TFA gang.

I agree with all of this.

I really liked Rogue One, while i loved TFA. Biggest reason why i prefer TFA, is the characters!

[BlobVanDam]

While I liked the way they incorporated the vent criticism into the main plot of Rogue One, I don't think it needed any further explanation.
It's a 2m wide hole in a well armoured mobile space station the size of a moon. Nobody would have found that without the blueprints.

[Adami]

I'll give TFA better characters, but I don't think that's enough to make it a better film.

Especially since TFA characters, mostly, were extensions of characters we've already come to love while Rogue One had to start from scratch.

[Zantera]

There should have been less cartoon Tarkin scenes and more fleshing out characters scenes. I also feel like Forrest Whittaker was kinda wasted in the film. They had the beginnings of an interesting character (I know he's more fleshed out in EU stuff) but then SPOILER he goes out after 30 or 40 minutes and it just felt a bit underwhelming.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

A few points from me that I think are relevant to what everyone's been talking about the last page or so. The second is a bit of a spoiler:

- I agree that Rogue One's characters weren't quite as memorable as The Force Awakens', but also that Rogue One's story was probably better than Force Awakens'. It kind of goes to show just how good Episodes IV and V were: Both had awesome characters and fun, more original stories.

- SPOILER: My apologies if this has already been mentioned, but does the Death Star weakness explanation in Rogue One create a problem for Force Awakens? There was no one on the inside of Starkiller Base to intentionally create a weakness, right? So how did they blow the thing up so easily? I don't actually care at all if there's now a plot hole or whatever in Force Awakens, but I just found it funny.

We'll probably find out in Rogue Two...

[Kotowboy]

I think in The Force Awakens - Han & Finn had to lower the shields and then the base was a sitting duck. They could just fly in and blast away at the power core or whatever.

[BlobVanDam]

A few points from me that I think are relevant to what everyone's been talking about the last page or so. The second is a bit of a spoiler:

- I agree that Rogue One's characters weren't quite as memorable as The Force Awakens', but also that Rogue One's story was probably better than Force Awakens'. It kind of goes to show just how good Episodes IV and V were: Both had awesome characters and fun, more original stories.

- SPOILER: My apologies if this has already been mentioned, but does the Death Star weakness explanation in Rogue One create a problem for Force Awakens? There was no one on the inside of Starkiller Base to intentionally create a weakness, right? So how did they blow the thing up so easily? I don't actually care at all if there's now a plot hole or whatever in Force Awakens, but I just found it funny.

We'll probably find out in Rogue Two...

No, Rogue Two is where we see all of the Bothans die!

In all seriousness though, it's a different design of base with a different energy source, so it has different vulnerabilities. Also I figure a lot of that knowledge was lost when the Empire was defeated anyway. I don't think it creates any problems for TFA.

[BlackInk]

But yeah seriously, what the hell is a Bothan? I was waiting the entire movie for an explanation.

[Logain Ablar]

I also feel like Forrest Whittaker was kinda wasted in the film. They had the beginnings of an interesting character (I know he's more fleshed out in EU stuff) but then SPOILER he goes out after 30 or 40 minutes and it just felt a bit underwhelming.

Personally, I'm not really interested in any EU stuff or SW Rebels, but I do agree that a few extra minutes spent with certain characters would have been worthwhile. Maybe something about how Saw and Galen knew each other, and especially his time spent raising Jyn. I think they could have made more of the fact that he ditched her when she was 16, so that when she came back to him, there would be an air of hostility between them.

I'd have liked a little bit more on what led Bodhi to defect. What did he see, or what was he ordered to do that he wasn't comfortable with?

I think in The Force Awakens - Han & Finn had to lower the shields and then the base was a sitting duck. They could just fly in and blast away at the power core or whatever.

Yeah, that was it. Please, let's have no more spherical superweapons in any future movies. Actually, just thinking about it, how did the Death Star actually move, to get to where it needed to be to blow up target X? What's the 0-60 on those things? 

But yeah seriously, what the hell is a Bothan? I was waiting the entire movie for an explanation.

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bothan

"Bothans were known to communicate with each other in a series of growls"

A bit like some here on DTF maybe.. 

[gmillerdrake]

got to see it last night, I apologize for repeating any points that have been made as I'm not quite current on the conversation.

All in all I think it was a really good movie. Good stand alone movie yet it fits perfectly in the SW universe, they did an awesome job in blending those two aspects. I'm on the side of folks who think TFA had more enjoyable characters that grabbed me more, as the RO characters were interesting enough but they didn't leap out and make me want to remember or care about them past their 'use' in this film.

I loved the entire tone of the movie, much more 'dark' than a typical SW film and I liked that aspect of it. My major complaint is that I didn't like the costume change on Vadar. The cape coming over his shoulders and hiding the majority of his breast plate IMO diminished his 'presence' and made him feel more like a halloween costume that a foreboding Sith Lord. At the same time, that final scene he was in was awesome....it had a very 'clone wars' type feel as far as how Anakin would take on large groups of droids/people and just utterly destroy them. I'd have loved to have seen another scene or two of Vadar battling like that and it made me long for a Vadar stand alone film...maybe between ROTS and RO of him getting in and out of danger....perhaps challenging/threatening the Emperor....something/anything because that final scene with him fighting was awesome.

I'm going to see it again with my kiddos to really try and appreciate it but at the moment if I had to pick which one was 'better'....TFA or RO.....I'm still leaning TFA merely because of the entirety of the story, even if that 'story' was just a re-hash it still gave us new characters that we care about. But that's just me and RO is nothing to sneeze at because it was awesome!!

[Kotowboy]

Almost every single SW film is *about* Vader in some way...

I'd be happy if we never saw him again.

[gmillerdrake]

I'd be happy if we never saw him again.

Really? That scene made me miss him        So much so I think I may look into the graphic novels of his exploits.

Maybe a 'greatest hits' film....an hour in length of him just traveling the universe laying the smack down on small factions of resistance.

[Kotowboy]

To me - I don't care about vader. He's in all 3 of the OT and the entire PT is all about him.

And now he's in Rogue One and is featured in The Force Awakens too.

It would be like if Khan was in all 13 Star Trek films.

[Polarbear]

To me - I don't care about vader. He's in all 3 of the OT and the entire PT is all about him.

And now he's in Rogue One and is featured in The Force Awakens too.

It would be like if Khan was in all 13 Star Trek films.

The episodic SW movies are a story about Vader and the Skywalker family.

Khan on the other hand, has very little to do with the grand story of Star Trek. I don't think you can compare Khan and Vader.

[Kotowboy]

Haha I had no idea who Jimmy Smits was...

When he was lurking in the back I was like " ...and...Jimmy Smits is also here ! ? "

[King Postwhore]

Almost every single SW film is *about* Vader in some way...

I'd be happy if we never saw him again.

He is the one to bring balance to the force so........

[bosk1]

While I liked the way they incorporated the vent criticism into the main plot of Rogue One, I don't think it needed any further explanation.
It's a 2m wide hole in a well armoured mobile space station the size of a moon and could only be accessed by flying a small, one-man fighter through a well-protected death trap of a trench and, against all odds, not only surviving that nearly unsurvivable flight path, but then also making a virtually impossible shot while flying at a high rate of speed. Nobody would have found that without the blueprints.

Added some text.  In short, I agree.

And that again takes me back to the few glaring flaws in the story with TFA, which all surround SKB.¹  Your points about how different it was are valid.  But still, one of the issues I had is that they made the final act just feel far too similar to ANH, added to the fact that they crammed too much into the film that made the final battle plan and resolution just feel too rushed and thrown-together.  Not that I didn't enjoy it.  I did.  But how that was done definitely detracts from the movie a bit for me.


¹  The other issue I had was just how it was able to attack from so far away and you could see the energy beams, apparently, from anywhere in the galaxy.  Yeah, it made for some visually stunning scenes that were really cool.  But, again, had more thought been put into how to put those sequences together in a manner that would actually somewhat make sense would have achieved the same effect without being the distraction that many of us found it to be.

[Phoenix87x]

Vader is not only my favorite villain of all time, but might very well be my favorite character of all time, so the more vader the better and I really like the rogue one vader. That's the vader I want. Up until this point, Empire vader was the one I loved the most:


Episode IV - He's kind of Tarkin's bitch. Sure, he busts stuff up, but I always feel that subordination to tarkin

Episode V - Total badass, murdering everyone that get's in his way and kicking ass. Besides that one small call to the emperor, he answers to no   one and he is in command, making strategic decisions.

Episode VI- He's the emperor's bitch, docile and subordinate. He just kind of hangs out on the command ship. Not feeling it 

So its nice to get the badass, independent vader back on the screen. And yeah tarkin dispatched him, but this time, he felt like he was doing his own thing. 

[Kotowboy]

Almost every single SW film is *about* Vader in some way...

I'd be happy if we never saw him again.

He is the one to bring balance to the force so........

[King Postwhore]

 

What?!  You no like the Vader?

[Zantera]

I love Vader and think he's one of the best villains ever put on the big screen, but the prequels really "ruined" him. In the original trilogy he's the right hand man of the Emperor, he is fierce and he is badass, but he is still a somewhat grounded character IMO. But then the prequels made him out to be Space-Jesus with everything revolving around him, and it didn't really match the picture we got of him in the original films.

[Kotowboy]

I don't *mind* Star Wars. I don't obsess about it like some people. They're just films.

And i've never found vader remotely scary or menacing

[Jester]

Hopefully, no Star Wars fans are trolling the Star Trek thread.   Star Wars fans v. Star Trek fans is one of the stupidest phenomenons of geekdom.

If you have watched as few as three of the SW films and haven't figured out the story is essentially about the Skywalkers, which amazingly includes the main one, Vader, then 

This is why ESB will probably always be the favorite SW.  Sure there's all the technical aspects and emotion, but what it boils down to is that movie took it from "episodic space battles" to a very personal story that changed how we looked at the series as a whole.

Bothans were the RotJ Death Star, not the ANH Death Star.  More importantly, the emperor flat out tells you that he purposely allowed the Bothans to successfully steal the plans.  Afterall


The reference to that in R1 was beautifully done.  It addresses the so called plot holes fans always point out in SW or any other movie.  Why didn't the characters see *that* coming?  Because they aren't watching it from a movie screen.  If you are in a war where double and triple agents are in play, feints are made to misdirect, etc, etc, you would be paralyzed and do nothing if you didn't react to events simply because "this could be a trap."

[Kotowboy]

I'm not trolling.

I just don't like Vader as a villain.

I also thought that Cmdr. Kruge, Sybok and Ru'Afo were pretty weak villains too.

I loved The Force Awakens but thought that Rogue One was a 6/10 movie.

[bosk1]

Your mom is a pretty weak villain.

[Jester]

I also thought that Cmdr. Kruge, Sybok and Ru'Afo were pretty weak villains too.

How dare you bash the Doc.

[Phoenix87x]

For me

1. Empire
2. Force Awakens
3. Rogue One
4. Jedi
5. A new hope
6. Revenge of the sith

[Kotowboy]

Your mom is a pretty weak villain.

Tends to happen when you've been dead 20 years...

[Jester]

The fact that Empire was so pivotal (of course it was.  Act 2 is usually the pivotal act) is why I'm reserving final judgment on TFA.  The next two can literally make everything about TFA awesome or a joke.  Quite frankly, that's good writing.  When a sequel movie is pivotal and each can't really work without the other.  That is the beauty of Star Wars.

[Adami]

The fact that Empire was so pivotal (of course it was.  Act 2 is usually the pivotal act) is why I'm reserving final judgment on TFA.  The next two can literally make everything about TFA awesome or a joke.  Quite frankly, that's good writing.  When a sequel movie is pivotal and each can't really work without the other.  That is the beauty of Star Wars.

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

[Jester]

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

So if you see something in Ep. 8 that makes you rewatch a scene or think of, say, Finn in a different light, you think that is bad writing?  That is the type of stuff I absolutely love.

Exclusion can be a very good method of writing (or directing).  An example would be R1 Vader's first scene.  The planet did not have the text "Mustafar - Vader's castle".  It was intentionally left out so as not to lessen what was to follow.

So the fact that each character in TFA has so many "holes" can be good writing.  And some of the holes may not be obvious.  Kenobi talking about Luke's father as a Jedi killed by Vader made it feel like it wasn't the mystery you were looking for.  You just accepted it as something that happened and nothing more than motivation.  When Owen says "that's what I'm afraid of" when Beru says "He has too much of his father in him", you think it is nothing more than he's worried Luke is going to get himself killed.  After Empire, the line takes on a whole new and exciting meaning.

That is top notch writing as far as I'm concerned.

[Phoenix87x]

Finn and Rey are brother and sister. I'm calling it

[Jester]

Finn and Rey are brother and sister. I'm calling it

Who are the parents?  Same father?  Does BB8 know and that's why he's always between them.  R2 gave him that hint.  "Beep da beep make sure they don't kiss boop"

[bosk1]

The fact that Empire was so pivotal (of course it was.  Act 2 is usually the pivotal act) is why I'm reserving final judgment on TFA.  The next two can literally make everything about TFA awesome or a joke.  Quite frankly, that's good writing.  When a sequel movie is pivotal and each can't really work without the other.  That is the beauty of Star Wars.

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

  What?

[Adami]

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

So if you see something in Ep. 8 that makes you rewatch a scene or think of, say, Finn in a different light, you think that is bad writing?  That is the type of stuff I absolutely love.

Exclusion can be a very good method of writing (or directing).  An example would be R1 Vader's first scene.  The planet did not have the text "Mustafar - Vader's castle".  It was intentionally left out so as not to lessen what was to follow.

So the fact that each character in TFA has so many "holes" can be good writing.  And some of the holes may not be obvious.  Kenobi talking about Luke's father as a Jedi killed by Vader made it feel like it wasn't the mystery you were looking for.  You just accepted it as something that happened and nothing more than motivation.  When Owen says "that's what I'm afraid of" when Beru says "He has too much of his father in him", you think it is nothing more than he's worried Luke is going to get himself killed.  After Empire, the line takes on a whole new and exciting meaning.

That is top notch writing as far as I'm concerned.

I said dependent. Not enhanced.