Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Pols Voice]

Finally, GL has been nothing but consistent that the original versions of the OT were not his original vision. I can't fault him for changing stuff until he says "This is the final version." and then changes more stuff after that.

How come he's one of the only directors who has to keep meddling with his work over and over again? You can't keep adding CGI and tweaking things to make movies from 1977-1983 feel like movies from 2011. They are of their era, are historically important, and are loved in their original form. There's a charm to the old puppets and models and matte paintings that's lost when it's replaced by CGI, especially when the CGI is bad like in the Jabba's Palace musical number from hell. If he thinks the OT isn't flashy enough, maybe he should have made the prequels less cartoonish so they would fit better instead of making the OT fit with the prequels.

It's kind of funny that movies he wasn't satisfied with became huge classics. If they had come out closer to his "vision", they wouldn't be as well-liked. Stuff like the Jabba scene in ANH is just superfluous.

[TL]

I still like how, back in '88, Lucas was one of the people leading the charge against colorization of old films, with his reasoning basically being that you shouldn't go revising the past. Oh the irony. He went on in a statement he made at the time about how it could lead to things like swapping out old actors with new ones, or changing lines and altering the actor's mouths to match. These were things he cited as bad at the time.

[Super Dude]

I still like how, back in '88, Lucas was one of the people leading the charge against colorization of old films, with his reasoning basically being that you shouldn't go revising the past. Oh the irony. He went on in a statement he made at the time about how it could lead to things like swapping out old actors with new ones, or changing lines and altering the actor's mouths to match. These were things he cited as bad at the time.

Yes, then he discovered money.

[Implode]

You know, going off of what I've seen of his personality, the money motive just doesn't work for me. I think a much better explanation is what someone brought up earlier. It's like he knows Star Wars is his only claim to fame, so he's going to keep changing things and making things newer to stay relevant as long as possible. it's not about the money, it's about the fame.

[zepp-head]

Finally, GL has been nothing but consistent that the original versions of the OT were not his original vision. I can't fault him for changing stuff until he says "This is the final version." and then changes more stuff after that.

How come he's one of the only directors who has to keep meddling with his work over and over again? You can't keep adding CGI and tweaking things to make movies from 1977-1983 feel like movies from 2011. They are of their era, are historically important, and are loved in their original form. There's a charm to the old puppets and models and matte paintings that's lost when it's replaced by CGI, especially when the CGI is bad like in the Jabba's Palace musical number from hell. If he thinks the OT isn't flashy enough, maybe he should have made the prequels less cartoonish so they would fit better instead of making the OT fit with the prequels.

It's kind of funny that movies he wasn't satisfied with became huge classics. If they had come out closer to his "vision", they wouldn't be as well-liked. Stuff like the Jabba scene in ANH is just superfluous.

To quote the man himself, "I'm sorry you fell in love with half a movie".  There are a lot of complaints about touch ups and things like that, and some of my more traditional friends from film school call it "fucking cheating".  However, I've come to the conclusion that that is only said because it hasn't been done before, at least not on that scale.  Plus, putting it in context, literally everything about a movie is cheating.  Spend a day on a film set and you'll hear the word "cheat" a hundred times.  Cheat left, cheat right, replace that line in ADR, beef that up with SFX, do 8 takes from this angle, then 8 from that angle, color this in post, etc.  Surely it's unprecedented and not always warmly welcomed but I honestly stopped caring.  If people need to bitch, I'll let them, but I'll be busy enjoying the box set which is looking better every day.

I found this to be a very good read, if you scroll down to the article titled "Providence": https://acertainpointofview.net/

You know, going off of what I've seen of his personality, the money motive just doesn't work for me. I think a much better explanation is what someone brought up earlier. It's like he knows Star Wars is his only claim to fame, so he's going to keep changing things and making things newer to stay relevant as long as possible. it's not about the money, it's about the fame.

This simply isn't true.

[ZBomber]

If you need a reason to believe Lucas is in it for the money, simply look at the DVD/blu ray releases. Intentionally holding off now so he can make a quick buck a couple years down the road.

[Implode]

But don't you think, he already would have a crap load of money? I feel it's more about him trying to stay relevant.

[blackngold29]

Finally, GL has been nothing but consistent that the original versions of the OT were not his original vision. I can't fault him for changing stuff until he says "This is the final version." and then changes more stuff after that.

How come he's one of the only directors who has to keep meddling with his work over and over again? You can't keep adding CGI and tweaking things to make movies from 1977-1983 feel like movies from 2011. They are of their era, are historically important, and are loved in their original form. There's a charm to the old puppets and models and matte paintings that's lost when it's replaced by CGI, especially when the CGI is bad like in the Jabba's Palace musical number from hell. If he thinks the OT isn't flashy enough, maybe he should have made the prequels less cartoonish so they would fit better instead of making the OT fit with the prequels.

It's kind of funny that movies he wasn't satisfied with became huge classics. If they had come out closer to his "vision", they wouldn't be as well-liked. Stuff like the Jabba scene in ANH is just superfluous.

I think a lot of people would agree with you, but GL has the ability to change them and does not give a fuck. Honestly, I think it's that simple. You don't want 'em, then don't buy them.

I would honestly bet that if this '2011 Blu-ray version' does not turn out to be George's final vision and not one person bought a single copy, he would release them again with new updates in a few years.

[Pols Voice]

As I said, I don't care if he changes a bunch of things, but I do want the originals or at least the 1997 versions (pre-Hayden in ROTJ...ugh) in good quality. I didn't buy those 2006 DVDs with the unaltered original trilogy, but I heard a bunch of bad things about their quality. I'll probably end up getting those sometime just because my old VHS copies can only last so long and I'm a sucker. I just don't want some of the things I loved about the movies as a child to disappear forever.

[blackngold29]

As I said, I don't care if he changes a bunch of things, but I do want the originals or at least the 1997 versions (pre-Hayden in ROTJ...ugh) in good quality. I didn't buy those 2006 DVDs with the unaltered original trilogy, but I heard a bunch of bad things about their quality. I'll probably end up getting those sometime just because my old VHS copies can only last so long and I'm a sucker. I just don't want some of the things I loved about the movies as a child to disappear forever.

What do you mean 'bad things about their quality'? Maybe that's why GL never wanted to release them. The only reason those originals were released was because fans complained so much he finally he broke down. That's my biggest issue with people saying he's all about the money: he knew they would make a ton and he still didn't want to release them. Finally when he does, he did it with nothing altered and 2.0 audio, etc. then people complain about 'bad quality.'

Maybe it's because I was introduced in 97, so I never saw the originals in the theater or grew up with them, that I just have no attraction to them. I bought the DVDs, but if you gave me the choice I would watch the updated ones.

[Pols Voice]

As I said, I don't care if he changes a bunch of things, but I do want the originals or at least the 1997 versions (pre-Hayden in ROTJ...ugh) in good quality. I didn't buy those 2006 DVDs with the unaltered original trilogy, but I heard a bunch of bad things about their quality. I'll probably end up getting those sometime just because my old VHS copies can only last so long and I'm a sucker. I just don't want some of the things I loved about the movies as a child to disappear forever.

What do you mean 'bad things about their quality'? Maybe that's why GL never wanted to release them. The only reason those originals were released was because fans complained so much he finally he broke down. That's my biggest issue with people saying he's all about the money: he knew they would make a ton and he still didn't want to release them. Finally when he does, he did it with nothing altered and 2.0 audio, etc. then people complain about 'bad quality.'

Maybe it's because I was introduced in 97, so I never saw the originals in the theater or grew up with them, that I just have no attraction to them. I bought the DVDs, but if you gave me the choice I would watch the updated ones.

Weren't they crappy laserdisc transfers or something? All I know is that a lot of people were pissed. Go here to find a legion of experts on this kind of thing: https://originaltrilogy.com/forum/

I was a fan for a long time before 1997, so our perspectives are different.

[zepp-head]

So was I, but I think a lot of people have a "heads I win, tails you lose" mentality about Lucas and Star Wars in general. 

[orcus116]

Finally, GL has been nothing but consistent that the original versions of the OT were not his original vision. I can't fault him for changing stuff until he says "This is the final version." and then changes more stuff after that.

There are producers and story editors for a reason. Merely the quality alone, not even counting the content, between the two eras of SW movies proves that quite true.

[Kotowboy]

You know, going off of what I've seen of his personality, the money motive just doesn't work for me. I think a much better explanation is what someone brought up earlier. It's like he knows Star Wars is his only claim to fame, so he's going to keep changing things and making things newer to stay relevant as long as possible. it's not about the money, it's about the fame.

This is why he gave up the rights to 60% of the franchise and all of his salary as long as he kept 100% of the merchandising royalties. Cue Ewoks. Cue Jar-Jar. Cue Star Wars f---ing *EVERYTHING*

Totally not in it for the money....

[zepp-head]

"Haters gonna hate.  Then haters are gonna buy the blu rays and complain some more." - Katie Lucas 

[Implode]

Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Super Dude]

"Haters gonna hate.  Then haters are gonna buy the blu rays and complain some more." - Katie Lucas 

There's no way she actually said that.

[zepp-head]

According to a couple different sources, she tweeted it.  Having trouble actually locating the original quotation though.

[blackngold29]

Whether she said it or not, it's exactly right. The people who complain have a choice to buy or not, they know exactly what they are getting and that they know they won't like it, but they'll buy it anyway, and then they will complain.

It's like going to the store, trying on a new pair of jeans, finding they don't fit and they make you look terrible, buying them, and then complaining about the store.

Explain how that's GL's fault. DON'T FREAKING BUY IT!

[bosk1]

I was around when the first film came out in theaters.  Saw all of them when they were originally released.  I bought the OT on VHS as a box set probably around 1999 or 2000.  I bought the OT again in a box set with a bonus DVD around 2005 or 2006 and the prequels individually that came in very similar packaging.  Although I'm a fan, I haven't kept track through the years of which edition is which, and which ones have which changes.  Can somebody point me to (or just post it) a complete list of all the editions through the years and what the changes are?  That would be really cool to have.

[El Barto]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases

Edit: The '97 special edition (which is probably the one you bought) is where he really started to change the tone of the originals,  as evidenced by Han Shot First.

[Cool Chris]

This is a good site too. It doesn't have everything, but it is nice to see the changes, and hear some of the audio ones.

https://www.dvdactive.com/editorial/articles/star-wars-the-changes-part-one.html

[zepp-head]

Whether she said it or not, it's exactly right. The people who complain have a choice to buy or not, they know exactly what they are getting and that they know they won't like it, but they'll buy it anyway, and then they will complain.

It's like going to the store, trying on a new pair of jeans, finding they don't fit and they make you look terrible, buying them, and then complaining about the store.

Explain how that's GL's fault. DON'T FREAKING BUY IT!

Exactly.  Whenever the films are released it's almost a knee jerk reaction.  Am I allowed to be excited?  Or do I have to be pissy and butthurt?

[ZBomber]

Whether she said it or not, it's exactly right. The people who complain have a choice to buy or not, they know exactly what they are getting and that they know they won't like it, but they'll buy it anyway, and then they will complain.

It's like going to the store, trying on a new pair of jeans, finding they don't fit and they make you look terrible, buying them, and then complaining about the store.

Explain how that's GL's fault. DON'T FREAKING BUY IT!

Yes and no.

I most likely will be buying it. But I'm not very happy about it. I love Star Wars, and it is my favorite film series ever. My whole childhood revolved around Star Wars, and it did up until Episode III came out. At that point, I kind of stopped being an avid fan, but it still holds a special place in my heart.

I really want to experience Star Wars in high definition. It's been ages since I've watched all of the films, and now that I have a pretty nice home theater, I'm even more drawn to the idea. When they first announced the blu rays, I was extremely excited. But it simply is not meeting my expectations. ESPECIALLY knowing that there most likely will be an OT unaltered (to a degree) version released at the end of the blu-ray's life, right before the next format takes over. Reading reviews on amazon, they didn't even take the time to properly transfer the films to the highest quality possible. I guess they're just using the same transfer they used for the shitty DVD set they released a couple years back.

So, yeah. I feel I DO have a bit of a right to complain. It's not just a small section of people. I'd say most people who are buying this would have the same complaints. Not everyone cares about little alterations. Not everyone is a hardcore fan. But we are getting an inferior version of the product, in more way than one. Do I have to buy it? No. But I know the alternative is to wait another 6 or 7 years, and I don't know if I want to wait that long.

If you look at any other blu-ray releases out there, there is no reason why Lucas had to cut corners like he did with this.

EDIT - Oh, and I never bought the OT boxset they released that was supposedly unaltered. I can't remember why. I think part of it was the transfer itself was really shitty, it was really letterboxed, and maybe some other stuff.... I can't remember.  Lucas has a long history of just kind of ripping off the fans. He's loaded. There is no reason he can't put out a proper box set of his own films, in the highest quality possible.

[Super Dude]

I can't remember who in the thread said it, but producers are studio boards are there for a reason.  The artist is never finished because the work is never perfect (in his/her mind, at least).  But to producers and studio CEOs, there sure as hell is a point where the movie is finished.  We see this complaint all the time with Dream Theater, don't we?  The quality of recent albums (withholding that statement for ADTOE for obvious reasons) has led to a lot of fans calling for them to bring back the influence of outside producers.  I think the same ought to be true for Star Wars.

Also I too think it's weird that GL is sorta trying to "blot out" the existence of the originals.  I think those who enjoy the films in their original forms should be have that option available to them and those who like the constant touch-ups should have theirs.  The problem with the re-releases is that the former option isn't even given, and even when it was, people have already discussed how that turned out.

[Adami]

I can't wait for George to finally go senile and digitally replace Chewbaca with Howard the Duck.

[zepp-head]

Whether she said it or not, it's exactly right. The people who complain have a choice to buy or not, they know exactly what they are getting and that they know they won't like it, but they'll buy it anyway, and then they will complain.

It's like going to the store, trying on a new pair of jeans, finding they don't fit and they make you look terrible, buying them, and then complaining about the store.

Explain how that's GL's fault. DON'T FREAKING BUY IT!

Yes and no.

I most likely will be buying it. But I'm not very happy about it. I love Star Wars, and it is my favorite film series ever. My whole childhood revolved around Star Wars, and it did up until Episode III came out. At that point, I kind of stopped being an avid fan, but it still holds a special place in my heart.

I really want to experience Star Wars in high definition. It's been ages since I've watched all of the films, and now that I have a pretty nice home theater, I'm even more drawn to the idea. When they first announced the blu rays, I was extremely excited. But it simply is not meeting my expectations. ESPECIALLY knowing that there most likely will be an OT unaltered (to a degree) version released at the end of the blu-ray's life, right before the next format takes over. Reading reviews on amazon, they didn't even take the time to properly transfer the films to the highest quality possible. I guess they're just using the same transfer they used for the shitty DVD set they released a couple years back.

So, yeah. I feel I DO have a bit of a right to complain. It's not just a small section of people. I'd say most people who are buying this would have the same complaints. Not everyone cares about little alterations. Not everyone is a hardcore fan. But we are getting an inferior version of the product, in more way than one. Do I have to buy it? No. But I know the alternative is to wait another 6 or 7 years, and I don't know if I want to wait that long.

If you look at any other blu-ray releases out there, there is no reason why Lucas had to cut corners like he did with this.

EDIT - Oh, and I never bought the OT boxset they released that was supposedly unaltered. I can't remember why. I think part of it was the transfer itself was really shitty, it was really letterboxed, and maybe some other stuff.... I can't remember.   Lucas has a long history of just kind of ripping off the fans. He's loaded. There is no reason he can't put out a proper box set of his own films, in the highest quality possible.

He is, just not of the ones you want.  And I'd struggle to say that MOST have the same complaints, just those that are the most vocal about it, like the almost 300 reviews of the Blu Rays on Amazon that nobody has seen yet.  And that's the problem I have with that viewpoint, somebody can dislike changes or films and that really doesn't matter, but many of used it as an entitlement to their own set of facts. A lot of people like to believe that there is some consensus that everybody hates the alterations and the prequels as well, even though there isn't any evidence for it other than people who complain on the Internet.  

What I find interesting is viewing the best selling blu rays on Amazon.  The saga of all six films is currently at number 2 (last I checked).  The original trilogy alone was at 8 and the prequel trilogy was at 27.  That doesn't seem impressive on its own, but when you consider that probably damn near every person who wants the prequels also wants the originals (i.e. the saga box set), that really gives it a little perspective.  Maybe some people want to collect all 3 box sets.  Okay, but I doubt that's a significant percentage of the people buying it.  Pair that up with the good ratings they always get on Spike, and the fact that by most measurable critic ratings, none of the films fared worse than Return of the Jedi, it really made me look at it differently.  In fact, the prequels are likely more widely enjoyed than most films ever have been, going by that, which can be understandably hard to wrap your head around.  And when The Phantom Menace does well in theaters next year, it'll be more of the same.  Yet the "consensus" is still that Lucas is a hack and nobody thinks he's good at anything except raping childhoods.

Just my 2 cents.

[ZBomber]

You can make the argument that Lucas is trying to perfect his work all you want, but that just brings more question as to why he isn't giving us the best transfer of the film. If he cares about perfecting his film that much, why won't he put the time and money into making sure it actually looks as good as it possibly can? It's like ripping an album to MP3, and then burning those MP3s onto a new disc and selling it.

[Adami]

You can make the argument that Lucas is trying to perfect his work all you want, but that just brings more question as to why he isn't giving us the best transfer of the film. If he cares about perfecting his film that much, why won't he put the time and money into making sure it actually looks as good as it possibly can? It's like ripping an album to MP3, and then burning those MP3s onto a new disc and selling it.

I'll admit this isn't my area of expertise. But what is the best quality he could do, and what will the blu rays end up with?

[Super Dude]

I could be wrong, but I think he's speaking metaphorically.

[Adami]

I could be wrong, but I think he's speaking metaphorically.

Didn't sound like it.

[Super Dude]

Oh, so nvm then.

[ZBomber]

I'm not very good with all the technical terms, so I'm just gonna rip this from one of the amazon reviews:

One of the biggest issues of contention with this set, however, will be the fact there is no new HD transfer for the films except The Phantom Menace, which means that, while this will be in high-definition, they're taken from the same transfer that was used to create the terrible 2004 DVDs. This essentially means that the films will not be presented in the best quality currently available and in use by practically every film that's been released on blu-ray for the last few years.

For many people, however, that won't matter, as the films will still look great, but take a moment to learn more in-depth information about Star Wars' sordid history on video, including the reasons four of the six films were downgraded in image quality, on the site, The Secret History of Star Wars (in the article: "Saving Star Wars.")

...

Judging by early reviews from Thedigitalbits.com and Hometheaterforum.com, this set will look great, and certainly better than the DVD versions. It appears that considerable work was done to make the old transfer look good (though certain problems, such as crushed blacks, will remain since they can't be fixed until a new transfer is made). The audio is a brand new 6.1 mix, which is appropriate.

From what I've gathered reading around the net, while it will still look good, it could have looked better. Most blu rays get a really high quality transfer, and I guess the one used for this, while still HD, isn't top of the line. Basically, it could have been of higher quality. Think of encoding something to 320kbs MP3 or a FLAC. And, just like the whole MP3/FLAC thing, most people won't be able to tell the difference and won't care, especially on smaller, lower quality TVs. But what it comes down to is that Star Wars didn't get the same high quality transfer that many other big title blu-ray releases get. I feel we atleast deserve that much.

I know that the psuedo-theatrical editions released had shit quality. I watched ANH at my friend's house and it looked terrible. These shouldn't be anything like that, but this isn't the first time that Lucasfilms gave us a lower quality version of the movies than what they were capable of.

Again... just what I've gathered. The set hasn't been released yet, so keep that in mind.

[Fiery Winds]

Here's an interesting article regarding the types of changes they're making from the DVD versions.

https://www.starwars.com/news/saga_bluray_restoration/index.html

You can make the argument that Lucas is trying to perfect his work all you want, but that just brings more question as to why he isn't giving us the best transfer of the film. If he cares about perfecting his film that much, why won't he put the time and money into making sure it actually looks as good as it possibly can? It's like ripping an album to MP3, and then burning those MP3s onto a new disc and selling it.

I'm not sure your analogy fits.  I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when they transferred from film to digital, it was done at a quality higher than that of DVD (I think it was 2k resolution).  Of course, that's nowhere near the 8k that The Wizard of Oz was scanned at, but it's still high enough that it'll need to be down-scaled a bit for Blu-Ray.  As far as the next HD resolution standard?  That's when we're screwed.

[zepp-head]

From the side by side pictures, it looks like the picture is coming through incredibly.  The clarity and detail is stellar, and the color seems way better too, especially The Phantom Menace now that it's not so pink. 

The saber color issues from the 2004 DVDs sound like they were addressed, and a video of the corrected "saber cross shot" from Return of the Jedi can be found online.  Yoda is now digital in The Phantom Menace, the audio has been remastered on all films, and the humdinger glitch is gone.  That's about the extent of my knowledge on what is different this time so far.