Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Voyage 34]

I don't see why they wouldn't use the clone army.  They were completely objective and there was nothing untrustworthy about the Clones, unless the supreme chancellor himself was actually a Sith, and no one saw that one coming.

Except that whole being preprogrammed with the kill all the Jedi order.

EDIT: Conveniently this is my 66th post, in which I am talking about Order 66.

[orcus116]

Reading that also made me realize another crappy part of the prequels: completely forgettable names, aside from maybe Qui-Gon Jinn.

[ReaPsTA]

Reading that also made me realize another crappy part of the prequels: completely forgettable names, aside from maybe Qui-Gon Jinn.

I disagree.  For example, Nute Gunray is very unforgettable.  Like the time I found out there wasn't a Santa Claus.

[Voyage 34]

Reading that also made me realize another crappy part of the prequels: completely forgettable names, aside from maybe Qui-Gon Jinn.

I disagree.  For example, Nute Gunray is very unforgettable.  Like the time I found out there wasn't a Santa Claus.

So the memory of Nute Gunray is associated with...pain or betrayal? Am I getting that right?

[Implode]

You're absolutely right about the names: the only new names I remember are Qui-Gon, Mace Windue, and Padme/Queen Amidala...I guess there's also Jar-Jar, Wotto...I do remember Shmi, Sebulba, and Boss Nass too, but I don't count those three. I think I just have an interesting TV/Movie memory.

He has a tendency to be pretenious and seems unable to grasp "contemporary art". It doesn't surprise me he hates it. I find him interesting and also unbearable at the same time. His Matrix reviews are spot on. Hi review of Minority Report is interesting but overboard, and as you mentioned his review of 2001 is an airball in his resume.

I thought his Matrix reviews were spot on as well. However, after watching some other reviews (Back to the Future and The Lion King), I feel like sometimes he looks so hard for flaws, he misses a lot of the films.

[Voyage 34]

He has a tendency to be pretenious and seems unable to grasp "contemporary art". It doesn't surprise me he hates it. I find him interesting and also unbearable at the same time. His Matrix reviews are spot on. Hi review of Minority Report is interesting but overboard, and as you mentioned his review of 2001 is an airball in his resume.

I thought his Matrix reviews were spot on as well. However, after watching some other reviews (Back to the Future and The Lion King), I feel like sometimes he looks so hard for flaws, he misses a lot of the films.

Thats probably true. Thats what I'm beginning to think about his Last Samurai review (which only has one part posted). I didn't love that movie by any means, but it wasn't terrible. Certainly not Star Trek Generations or Spiderman 3.

[Vivace]

I don't see why they wouldn't use the clone army.  They were completely objective and there was nothing untrustworthy about the Clones, unless the supreme chancellor himself was actually a Sith, and no one saw that one coming.

And no one saw it coming because the Jedi are stupid as shit. Let me repeat that... they are as STUPID as SHIT!! There! That's off my chest. Any rational and intelligent organization would have put two and two together about half-way through Attack of the Clones and the fact that it took them all the way until Anakin said something in Revenge of the Sith is enough to damn these movies to the 8th level of hell.

Speaking of CM: His best reviews are Pirates 3, The Matrix, Star Trek Generations, Independance Day, Armageddeon and a small nod to Spiderman 3. He always has a good point but he will usually overlook the good in favor of the bad, especially in the case of Back to the Future II, The Lion King, Minority Report and especially 2001. He sees the flaws but I don't think he very objective or fair in his judgement with the rare case of Independance Day. If all his reviews harnesed that sort of unbias I think he would do 1000x times better with some of his reviews.

[The Dark Master]

And no one saw it coming because the Jedi are stupid as shit. Let me repeat that... they are as STUPID as SHIT!! There! That's off my chest. Any rational and intelligent organization would have put two and two together about half-way through Attack of the Clones and the fact that it took them all the way until Anakin said something in Revenge of the Sith is enough to damn these movies to the 8th level of hell.

PALPATINE'S BEHIND IT ALL!

[Super Dude]

Well yeah, they should've suspected something at least.  Remember when in RotS, when they sent Anakin to be their watchdog after 3-4 years of the Clone Wars and possibly hundreds of questionable pieces of legislation in between?  As soon as Palpatine received emergency powers they should've had someone keeping tabs on him.

[Voyage 34]

I don't see why they wouldn't use the clone army.  They were completely objective and there was nothing untrustworthy about the Clones, unless the supreme chancellor himself was actually a Sith, and no one saw that one coming.

And no one saw it coming because the Jedi are stupid as shit. Let me repeat that... they are as STUPID as SHIT!! There! That's off my chest. Any rational and intelligent organization would have put two and two together about half-way through Attack of the Clones and the fact that it took them all the way until Anakin said something in Revenge of the Sith is enough to damn these movies to the 8th level of hell.

The Jedi really are that dumb. Mace Windu says more than once "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi." Really? You sense a plot? What was your first hint?

Speaking of CM: His best reviews are Pirates 3, The Matrix, Star Trek Generations, Independance Day, Armageddeon and a small nod to Spiderman 3. He always has a good point but he will usually overlook the good in favor of the bad, especially in the case of Back to the Future II, The Lion King, Minority Report and especially 2001. He sees the flaws but I don't think he very objective or fair in his judgement with the rare case of Independance Day. If all his reviews harnesed that sort of unbias I think he would do 1000x times better with some of his reviews.

Agreed. Though I do have to give more than a nod to his Spiderman 3 review. That movie was crap, and it sank a good franchise. Before that one came out they were planning on doing six movies in that series.

[Vivace]

Oh God... Mace Windu.

[zepp-head]

Well yeah, they should've suspected something at least.  Remember when in RotS, when they sent Anakin to be their watchdog after 3-4 years of the Clone Wars and possibly hundreds of questionable pieces of legislation in between?  As soon as Palpatine received emergency powers they should've had someone keeping tabs on him.

Well, that's treason, but by the third movie, they did.

[Super Dude]

Hey, if the Sith have a plant inside the government, I see no reason for the Jedi not to have a mole. Also that whole "treason" thing is just a lame plot device intended to distance Anakin from the Jedi.

[Voyage 34]

Here is something about the Clone Wars TV series that I've been wondering about. Anakin is a Jedi Knight, and for a Jedi Knight to become a Master they must successfully train an apprentice who becomes a Knight. Well, Anakin has an apprentice in this show, but as we know from Suck Fest Episode III Anakin is not a Master (see this scene for details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie5yIITKlRo). So what are they going to do, kill his apprentice at the end, or have her quit? Not that I actually care, I'm just trying to stir up more prequel BS to bitch about.

[bosk1]

I would suspect that the TV series will just gloss over that inconsistency and not really deal with it. 

[ZBomber]

How do we know she DIDN'T become a jedi knight? Maybe she did but the council still felt he wasn't ready to be a master. Because, if she didn't become a Jedi Knight he probably wouldn't have tried to become a master in the first place.

[Voyage 34]

How do we know she DIDN'T become a jedi knight? Maybe she did but the council still felt he wasn't ready to be a master. Because, if she didn't become a Jedi Knight he probably wouldn't have tried to become a master in the first place.

Because training someone is the test to becoming a Master. If she got promoted, so would he. Why would they have given him someone to call him "Master Anakin" if they didn't think he was ready?

[bosk1]

Because training someone is the test to becoming a Master.

Oh, I read your ealier post wrong.  Why do you think training someone is the test to becoming a master?  I've never heard any such thing.  I think it's the opposite, actually.  You have to be a master to take on an apprentice.  You don't become a master by training an apprentice.

[ehra]

I don't think that can be right, because I'm pretty sure Obiwan becomes a Jedi Knight and Anikan becomes his apprentice at the end of TPM

[Voyage 34]

Because training someone is the test to becoming a Master.

Oh, I read your ealier post wrong.  Why do you think training someone is the test to becoming a master?  I've never heard any such thing.  I think it's the opposite, actually.  You have to be a master to take on an apprentice.  You don't become a master by training an apprentice.

Regardless, the fact is he's not a master in Episode III, so it's still them not paying attention to their own crappy story. And...

I don't think that can be right, because I'm pretty sure Obiwan becomes a Jedi Knight and Anikan becomes his apprentice at the end of TPM

Correct.

[bosk1]

Because training someone is the test to becoming a Master.

Oh, I read your ealier post wrong.  Why do you think training someone is the test to becoming a master?  I've never heard any such thing.  I think it's the opposite, actually.  You have to be a master to take on an apprentice.  You don't become a master by training an apprentice.

Regardless, the fact is he's not a master in Episode III, so it's still them not paying attention to their own crappy story.

No, I know.  That's why I was saying earlier that I think they'll just ignore that.

I don't think that can be right, because I'm pretty sure Obiwan becomes a Jedi Knight and Anikan becomes his apprentice at the end of TPM

Correct.

Obi Wan became a master at that point. 

[Voyage 34]

I don't think that can be right, because I'm pretty sure Obiwan becomes a Jedi Knight and Anikan becomes his apprentice at the end of TPM

Correct.

Obi Wan became a master at that point.  

So he skipped Knight completely and went to Master? Watch that scene again. Yoda says "confer on you the level of Jedi Knight the Council does." Here's the audio. https://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/3/34/ObiWanKnighted-TPM.ogg

[Adami]

Is Master even an official rank? Or is it more a title?

[bosk1]

Yeah, I don't think there are formal "ranks."  You're either a padawan or a master. 

[Voyage 34]

I think it has to be pretty official since in order to be a voting member of the Jedi Council you have to be recognized by the Order as a Master. And yes, there are three official levels of Jedi, Padawans, Knights, and Masters. To go from Padawan to Knight you must successfully complete the Jedi Trials to be recognized as such. This was waved for Obi Wan because he killed Darth Time Filler (stealing ConfusedMatthew's name for Maul). Once you have become a Knight you can be given a Padawan, and if you trained them well enough to pass the Trials themselves, you will be made a Master.

[Adami]

I think it has to be pretty official since in order to be a voting member of the Jedi Council you have to be recognized by the Order as a Master. And yes, there are three official levels of Jedi, Padawans, Knights, and Masters. To go from Padawan to Knight you must successfully complete the Jedi Trials to be recognized as such. This was waved for Obi Wan because he killed Darth Time Filler (stealing ConfusedMatthew's name for Maul). Once you have become a Knight you can be given a Padawan, and if you trained them well enough to pass the Trials themselves, you will be made a Master.

Yea but I don't think it's a rank, just more of a level of skill.

[bosk1]

Actually, upon further research, it appears Voyage34 is correct:

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Knight
https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Master

I stand corrected.

[ZBomber]

How do we know she DIDN'T become a jedi knight? Maybe she did but the council still felt he wasn't ready to be a master. Because, if she didn't become a Jedi Knight he probably wouldn't have tried to become a master in the first place.

Because training someone is the test to becoming a Master. If she got promoted, so would he. Why would they have given him someone to call him "Master Anakin" if they didn't think he was ready?

Thats what I'm saying. They denied him the right to be a Master. Maybe he actually completed his training and his apprentice became a knight, but the council still didn't think he was ready to be a master, hence WHY he was so pissed. But just because he is a master doesn't necessarily mean she didn't complete her training.

[Super Dude]

Maybe they'll just kill her off.  Or maybe Lucas doesn't give a rat's ass and they won't.

[Voyage 34]

Maybe they'll just kill her off. 

I hope for this.

[zepp-head]

Maybe they'll just kill her off.  Or maybe Lucas doesn't give a rat's ass and they won't.

He doesn't give a rats ass, nor does he have much involvement with the show.

Hey, if the Sith have a plant inside the government, I see no reason for the Jedi not to have a mole. Also that whole "treason" thing is just a lame plot device intended to distance Anakin from the Jedi.

He is asked to spy on his own leader completely off record and none of that is supposed to border on treason?  And again, they DID eventually plant someone.  I guess there is nothing somebody won't complain about. 

[Super Dude]

Of course it borders on treason, but there's no reason the Jedi should back off if it means the fate of an entire galaxy of free people.  The Jedi are superpowerful beings who have protected the Republic at all costs for tens of thousands of years; I think they ought to be able to deal with being denounced, whatever that would mean for them.  And you'd think that after that long a relationship of pure loyalty to the Republic, that protecting it AT ALL COSTS would mean exactly what it says.

[TL]

https://herocomplex.latimes.com/2010/08/12/star-wars-was-born-a-long-time-ago-but-not-all-that-far-far-away-in-1972-filmmakers-george-lucas-and-gary-kurtz-wer/
Very interesting article, with Gary Kurtz giving some insider insight, largely on how Lucas' attitude toward the films changed over the course of making the OT. He says that it's basically bullshit that any sort of saga was pre-planned; Lucas wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but couldn't get the rights, so he changed some things, worked on it a bit, and it became an original film that would have been about five hours. There was a chunk in the middle the worked as a standalone film, and that became the original Star Wars.

The ending to ROTJ was originally way different. Lucas changed it largely for merchandising reasons.

Also, Francis Ford Coppola originally got the rights to Apocalypse Now so that Lucas could make it. However, the studio insisted on a sequel to Star Wars. When it became evident that the sequels were going to take a while, Coppola got impatient and decided to make Apocalypse Now himself. So Apocalypse Now was almost a George Lucas film.

[Vivace]

But as he sat in the dark with the follow-up “Star Wars” films, he squirmed in his seat.

“I don’t like the idea of prequels, they make the filmmakers back in to material they’ve already covered and it boxes in the story,” Kurtz said. “I think they did a pretty good job with them although I have to admit I never liked Hayden Christensen in the role of Anakin Skywalker. I just wished the stories had been stronger and that the dialogue had been stronger. It gets meek. I’m not sure the characters ever felt real like they did in ‘Empire.’”

Come on, Kurtz! Tell us what you really think of them. Don't mince words and don't feel as if bashing Lucas is going to make you lose ground in The Business. 

[Vivace]

A couple of opinions on the above article. I agree with Kurtz.... and yet I disagree with him as well. Given Return of the Jedi was either going to be the vision Kurtz had or the vision Lucas had I for one am glad that we got Lucas' vision instead for the following reasons: 1) you already ended Empire with a sad yet bittersweet ending so why not wrap up the story with a happy ending? A New Hope wrapped up with a happy ending and it worked just fine and I see no reason in not going back to the formula of the first in order to establish an idea for the 3rd. 2) the idea of Han Solo dying in the middle of Jedi is just a bad idea from the get-go. First of all you spent the whole movie of Empire establishing the relationship between him and Leia and the whole of the beginning of Jedi is to rescue Han. The building up of the relationship between Han and Leia deepened our emotional connection and to rip that apart in Jedi would have turned the movie into a drama, not straight sci-fi. However I agree with Kurtz on the idea that a movie should not be made in order to cater to the toy business. You make a movie because you have a great idea for a story and want to see it on the big screen. Thus we see the end result in Jedi. You have Ewoks when you really could have had anything you wanted on the Forest moon of Endor. In fact I was thinking you could easily have put Wookie's on that planet and have Chewbacca met his family or something. At least you have a tie in to your primary characters and it moves the story and the characters ahead of where they were. You also have a song and dance number that although was a pretty good demonstration of puppetry and special effects, didn't do anything to move anything along, at least not until we got to the dancing girl dropping into the Rancor pit. A re-write here could have made the scene better. However past that... Lucas really did nail Jedi well and I still enjoy the movie to this day.

However thanks to this article a lot of things now make sense and also it tells us that nothing in the world was going to prevent what we saw as the end result for Jedi and also that the prequels were doomed from the start. It also tells us that Lucas was greedy. Sticking with the movie and adjusting it to meet the standards of marketing rather than the standards of artistic merit. This is more than evident with the prequels that lack a story and are nothing more than a six hour demo reel for where current effects are today and more toys you can buy at Toys R Us. Although I'm glad Jedi turned out more with Lucas' vision over Kurtz there is still the loss of Lucas' "ancor" so to speak as he was certainly the one who was needed the most in the prequels to tell Lucas, "stop making a movie for toys and write a goddamn story!!".