All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)

[El Barto]

Descent.  Data and Lore corrupt the Borg and torture Geordi.  Beverly turns into Rommel and kicks the Borg's ass.

Ohhhh yea. You know they really had a decent idea there with the individualized Borg. Sucks they just kind of..........forgot about it. Luckily Voyager did a decent job with it for a short time.

Yeah, I think they tried to work too much into it.  You had the borg problem, Data and Lore, and Crusher's command.  The Borg problem was interesting, Data and Lore were boring, and Beverly's command was just pandering. 

[Adami]

You know what's sad though is that Data and Lore had AMAZING potential. But TNG were too afraid to go dark. Put those same characters with the writers of the last seasons of DS9 or the 3rd season of Enterprise and you could have a hell of a story. Lore needed to be a homicidal maniac instead of just mean rascal, and Data should have had a quest to rid the galaxy of his trouble while at the same time having an underlying urge to protect him from harm.

[El Barto]

Lore was always a week character, mostly because of Spiner's portrayal.  I really like what he did with Data, which is one of the shows strengths, but he ruined Lore.  Lore was always over the top.  He was over-emotional from the get-go.  Notice that there's really no difference between him in their first encounters and after he steals the chip?  You say that he needed to be a homicidal madman rather than a mean rascal.  I'd suggest that he absolutely was, he just came across as a laughable character because of his flippancy.  What was needed was for him to be just as homicidal as he was, but with Data's cool and calculating demeanor.  A cold, emotionless sociopath.  That would have been pretty intense.  That's actually one of the qualities that makes the Borg such good bad guys.  If they wanted to work in the emotional angle later, after the chip, then that would have been fine but only after they established him first.  They never did that.

[Adami]

I didn't mean to imply by "madman" that he be eccentric. Just that he be way more brutal/aggressive. I agree that he needed to be cool and calm like Data though. But imagine Lore just killing thousands whenever he felt the urge.

Him taking the chip was necessary for Data's development, but it served no purpose for Lore's character really.

[El Barto]

I got what you were saying.  I'm just suggesting that he was every bit that brutal, just not to that scale.  He was absolutely remorseless in all of his endeavors.  He was just goofy in how he went about it.

[Adami]

I got what you were saying.  I'm just suggesting that he was every bit that brutal, just not to that scale.  He was absolutely remorseless in all of his endeavors.  He was just goofy in how he went about it.

I know he was remoresless but he never really did much. He did kill his dad, boo hoo, and he sat around with a bunch of Borg. He also killed off a planet.....via proxy and only in the past. I want to see a Lore in command of his own ship that seriously just goes around killing as many organic life forms as possible, no with a big crystal ball, but himself.

[El Barto]

Doesn't happen in Roddenberry's universe.  Death was pretty limited in TNG.  Happened all the time in TOS, whole systems wiped out, although the perpetrators were never sociopaths.  Interestingly, the giant snowflake might have been the biggest killer in that show. 

[Adami]

Doesn't happen in Roddenberry's universe.  Death was pretty limited in TNG.  Happened all the time in TOS, whole systems wiped out, although the perpetrators were never sociopaths.  Interestingly, the giant snowflake might have been the biggest killer in that show.

By the end of the show the Borg were responsible for quite a bit of death. But I agree that TNG's main flaw is that it was too bright, I still like it but I prefer DS9 and aspects of Voyager and Enterprise due to their grim view of things. Luckily the movies pretty much eliminated Gene's original vision. You get to see the darkest sides of the characters in the movies.

[Adami]

Watching the episode where a computer is given command of the ship. At one point Spock remarks that the most regrettable part of it all is that there isn't a way for a computer to replace the chief medical officer. I just had the vision of Robert Picardo showing up and smiling at the camera at that moment.

[rumborak]

Btw, your previous comment, I kinda have to say that it wasn't all bad that Roddenberry dropped out at some point. Some of ST's best would not have been produced with him still at the helm.

rumborak

[Adami]

Btw, your previous comment, I kinda have to say that it wasn't all bad that Roddenberry dropped out at some point. Some of ST's best would not have been produced with him still at the helm.

rumborak

Totally agreed. He set the building blocks but couldn't have seen the product through. Now if only George Lucas had figured that out.

[rumborak]

I am rather happy that I am a much stronger ST fan than a SW fan. I would hate it how Lucas shit on the product.

rumborak

[chrisbDTM]

Btw, your previous comment, I kinda have to say that it wasn't all bad that Roddenberry dropped out at some point. Some of ST's best would not have been produced with him still at the helm.

rumborak

Totally agreed. He set the building blocks but couldn't have seen the product through. Now if only George Lucas had figured that out.

this. a big reason why Empire Strikes Back is incredible and the best SW is because he didn't direct it

[ZirconBlue]

OK, here's a random question: I can't think right now of a single Scifi series that had bathrooms. Enterprise had showers, but I can't remember any toilets in any Scifi series.

rumborak

Babylon 5 had standard public restrooms, as well as restrooms in individual quarters.


Firefly had pull-out toilets in the crew quarters.


The new Battlestar Gallactica had co-ed restrooms/showers, and restrooms in private quarters. 






Star Trek wouldn't really need them, though.  They could just have the transporter periodically beam the waste away, perhaps for reuse in the replicators.   

[El Barto]

Data having nightmares is actually a pretty decent idea.  Throw in a side-plot or two and you've got one of those lighthearted episodes that are often perfectly decent.  Data having nightmares because of some aliens trapped in the warp core is predictable and just plain fucking stupid.  They really have no confidence in their audience at this point.

Earlier today I made it about 2/3 of the way through the episode with Geordi's mother.  When checking wikiP to confirm what I suspected was going on so I wouldn't have to finish it, I saw that one of the writers considered it the beginning of the end. 

"I think it was a point where we were in the room and we were talking about bringing Geordi's mother in, and we all kind of looked at each other and we were like, "This is sad. This is the best we can do? Is this the best we can do, is Geordi's mother?" It was such a "who cares" idea that we were just sort of, "Oh man… This show has got to end."

It's really showing in season 7.  The first six seasons have actually been better than I recalled, but this is every bit as awful as I remembered.  It would seem to be a big part of my contempt for this show. 

To be fair, the scene with Worf and the cat was pretty damned funny.  Still, not enough to salvage this thing.  It looks like this show went on a year too long, and I'm suddenly looking forward to Voyager. 

[The King in Crimson]

IIRC, every issue you have with tNG will be 100 times worse in Voyager.

Enjoy the last season while it lasts.  Despite its lack of consistency there're a few pretty good episodes and at least one so bad it's good. 

Voyager, in comparison, is a stagnant mire of mediocrity.

[Adami]

I gotta agree, your main two complaints (although I'm sure there are literally thousands more) about TNG are:

1. Lack of inter-character conflict
2. Condescending morality.


The first point is not only also made in Voyager, it's actually thrown at you. The crew is comprised of warring peoples, yet aside from 2-3 episodes through all 7 years, they seem to get along brilliantly.

The second point brings back memories of Janeway being condescending about her morality to the point where Jean Luc Picard would throw up on her before raping her while yelling "Take THIS prime directive".

[BlobVanDam]

I gotta agree, your main two complaints (although I'm sure there are literally thousands more) about TNG are:

1. Lack of inter-character conflict
2. Condescending morality.


The first point is not only also made in Voyager, it's actually thrown at you. The crew is comprised of warring peoples, yet aside from 2-3 episodes through all 7 years, they seem to get along brilliantly.

The second point brings back memories of Janeway being condescending about her morality to the point where Jean Luc Picard would throw up on her before raping her while yelling "Take THIS prime directive".

I disagree. Even B'lanna alone makes up for the conflict element. She's a bitch to everyone. It's great. The Maquis plotline was entirely wasted, but they still had their fair share of conflict.
And I don't feel like Janeway gets preachy aside from the times when it's actually 100% justified. And the rest of the time she's happily trading tech with people to get her next fix of coffee.

[Adami]

Blob, the El Barto of Voyager.

[BlobVanDam]

That depends. Do you mean the El Barto (TOS) of Voyager, or the El Barto (TNG) of Voyager?

Trust me, I'll be the first to admit the many faults of Voyager, but it's still my favourite, even though I'd never call it the best.

[Adami]

The first one of those.



And Voyager had 3 major problems as far as I was concerned.

1. Really lame villains for quite a good portion of the show. Granted they did have awesomeness of species 8472 or whatever, but kind of killed that when they made them scared aliens who wanted peace. The Borg were awesome in Voyager too.

2. They totally wasted the Maquis/Federation story line. Soooo much potential, but the show would have had to been rather dark to work.

3. Virtually no worthwhile characters. Janeway wasn't bad. Chekotay was just an awful character who never added anything. Paris had potential but just never.....did anything. Kim was worthless. Belana just yelled at everyone, but I guess finally made something of herself near the end. Neelix wasn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be, I liked him. Seven was awesome, as was the doctor. But largely the characters did little, went nowhere and never developed in the slightest bit (minus Doc and 7).



Also, the seven of nine/chekotay romance was a terrible idea. A reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly bad idea.


Also would have loved some resolution to the show. They get back to the alpha quadrant. And then what? Nothing, the god damn show ends.

[BlobVanDam]

I agree with you on every point, for the most part.
It was not strong casting from the start. The characters all grew on me, and I like them all, but a lot of them couldn't act. Harry Kim, Tom Paris and Chakotay were the worst offenders there. I was actually glad once they focused more on Janeway, The Doctor, and 7 of 9, because they were the redeeming characters/actors of the show.
I found their villians of the week to generally be better than their recurring ones. The Kazon were the worst villians ever. I thought the Vidiians were actually a neat idea, but they didn't use them enough. The others were hit and miss. They did have some that I thought were cool though, like the Krenim, and the think tank.

And the ending of Endgame was such a cocktease. They got home in seven years, with so many accomplishments (including the feat of getting home itself), and we don't even get to see them reunite with their loved ones. At all. Overall I thought it was a fairly good episode though, but I agree with every criticism I've heard of it.

DS9 did it right. They wrapped up the main Dominion arc in the first half of the episode, then left the rest for every character to get their own conclusion. It was by far the most satisfying finale of the bunch imo.

[Adami]

I think I read somewhere once that they originally wanted to make "Year of Hell" a season long arc.


I have to say, that would have been pure brilliance. They had the reset button at the end anyway, but a whole year of intense pain, torture and bleakness would have been way better than just 2 episodes. Luckily Enterprise essentially did it with season 3.

[BlobVanDam]

I believe I said a while back about Year of Hell being a year long arc, and I recall I was corrected as being mistaken on that.

It would have made a cool season arc, although as is, it's still one of my favourite Voyager episodes, if not my very favourite.

[Adami]

I believe I said a while back about Year of Hell being a year long arc, and I recall I was corrected as being mistaken on that.

It would have made a cool season arc, although as is, it's still one of my favourite Voyager episodes, if not my very favourite.

Wait, was it one episode or 2? I can't remember now. And yea it was really good. Although I still think that one where the clones all die might be the best.

[BlobVanDam]

I believe I said a while back about Year of Hell being a year long arc, and I recall I was corrected as being mistaken on that.

It would have made a cool season arc, although as is, it's still one of my favourite Voyager episodes, if not my very favourite.

Wait, was it one episode or 2? I can't remember now. And yea it was really good. Although I still think that one where the clones all die might be the best.

It was a two part episode, I was just counting it as one for simplicity.
I watched the clones one just last week, and that's a good one, although probably not one of my favourites largely due to the problems with the premise, which I went into detail with a page or two back.

[Adami]

Yea, I remember that.

You had a problem with them forgetting that they were clones, and for being able to breath the air on their voyager.


Well 1, in the original episode they didn't know they were clones, so it would make sense. And 2, it's safe to assume that the air on their voyager was probably the same atmosphere from their planet.

[BlobVanDam]

Yea, I remember that.

You had a problem with them forgetting that they were clones, and for being able to breath the air on their voyager.


Well 1, in the original episode they didn't know they were clones, so it would make sense. And 2, it's safe to assume that the air on their voyager was probably the same atmosphere from their planet.

I still had a couple of issues with that though.

First of all, they all found out at some point early on that they were clones. How does a whole crew simultaneously selectively forget that? And also, not the whole crew was cloned by the same method of direct contact. Most of the crew was cloned via DNA according to the end of Demon, so I'm unsure why many of them had memories of their real-life counterpart's life to begin with.

And also, they mentioned many planets they had stopped at along the way. Every single humanoid planet in Trek seems to have a pretty breathable humanoid atmosphere. I don't believe that they happened to stumble across all of the only planets that had the same atmosphere as them, and remember that they'd covered a lot of ground with their enhanced warp drive. And the Doctor seemed to have never known they were clones to begin with, so I find it hard to believe he didn't notice such a difference in a routine medical checkup. Those tricorders pick up on just about everything.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the episode, but I feel it was a bit of a major contrivance to make the idea work. Ignoring the setup though, it was a fun episode.

[Adami]

Yea......well..............your mother was a kangaroo.

[BlobVanDam]

That may well be true, but it's not canon, so I'm ok with that.

[Adami]

Okay, so I saw the episodes with Yangs and Koms or whatever and the one with the romans.


1. Really? The planet just magically also speaks english (not universal translator) has the american flag, the constitution and the pledge of alliegence? REALLY?!?!? Did I miss the explanation for that one?

2. The romans was dumb as hell. Why was the jesus thing so randomly tacked on? Pretty damn annoying.



The Nazi one wasn't bad. At least they made attempts to explain that one.

[BlobVanDam]

1. Really? The planet just magically also speaks english (not universal translator) has the american flag, the constitution and the pledge of alliegence? REALLY?!?!? Did I miss the explanation for that one?

I made comments on that on page 28 when I first saw it. The episode was pretty good up until that point, but then Kirk suddenly gets a massive American boner and rants away the rest of the episode. Back when the United Federation of Planets was the United Federation of America. Cringeworthy stuff.

2. The romans was dumb as hell. Why was the jesus thing so randomly tacked on? Pretty damn annoying.

I mentioned that one a while back too. Just seeing the crew's smug faces that the popular earth religion was conquering a planet made me a little sick, not to mention that just like the constitution episode, made absolutely no sense at all. They did not explain how these influences got to random planets.

[Adami]

Kirk getting excited about both the constitution and Jesus is hilarious given that he is a Canadian Jew.

[El Barto]

The Omega Glory certainly wasn't War and Peace, but I liked it nevertheless.  I'm used to plenty of silliness in all incarnations of Star Trek, so the crappy ending doesn't ruin it for me, and in this case, Captain Tracy and his plight was a great story.  We're suppose to believe that any starship captain would happily allow himself to be slaughtered rather than fight back in that situation, and most of them would, but it stands to reason that a few of them wouldn't. 

[El Barto]

Christ, I'm amazed by how terrible the seventh season of TNG was.  No wonder I had such bad opinion of the series.  I was really thinking much more highly of it through six seasons, but this is just miserable.  There have been some episodes that are just unbearable, including three that I really tried to watch but wasn't able to get past 15 minutes because of the awful writing, and I'm really having a hard time finishing the after-school special on teen suicide. 

edit:  Nope, make it four.