All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)

[Adami]

The lasers mostly I find. And Klingon bridges are bathed in red a lot I find.

That's true.

[El Barto]

I think it's more of a tone.  Each group definitely has their style.  The federation seems bright and sunny; lots of yellows and blues.  The Klingons exude Earth-tones and fire.  Like journeying to hell.  The Romulans are very sterile.  Cool blues and greens. 

Watched The Inner Light today.  It's the second ST episode that I always thought was overrated, but eventually decided otherwise.  That's a damn fine piece of work.  It's definitely not perfect; having his friends and family show up to explain it to him kind of screwed things up with some plot holes.  Nevertheless, the concept was excellent and the execution was still pretty good. 

[Adami]

Finished Enterprise (Excluding the abortion of a final episode which I will pretend doesn't exist).

You know, it really was a good show. The 1st and 2nd season were a bit...blah at times. The third was amazing start to finish, and 4th was pretty great too. Bakula kind of went over the top too often in the 4th season however.

I really didn't mind the augment story line. Soong's little line about cybernetics was nothing more than a cute wink, no idea why anyone would get so furious over it.The klingon thing wasn't bad.....just wasn't at all necessary. I also don't share blobs sentiments that dealing with the problem is a horrible idea. However I think Worf handled it perfectly in DS9.

All in all, a very good show. I know most of you hate it, but I love it and am better off for that. Now I'm on ToS and it's pretty painful to watch as of now. The stories aren't bad (somewhat) but holy crap is the acting and everything else terrible so far. Only a few episodes in and I know it gets much better, but still.....damn. No concept of consistency, no concept of logic or anything.

[BlobVanDam]

Finished Enterprise (Excluding the abortion of a final episode which I will pretend doesn't exist).

Not too hard considering the entire episode was a holodeck simulation. Technically we're not seeing any of the real story first hand, so let's just pretend the records from that era are sketchy and wrong.

I heard everyone say how bad TATV was, and I thought "meh, fans are nitpicky about everything, I'm sure it's not that bad." Boy, was I wrong.
Everyone said Endgame was terrible too, but I thought it was pretty good. I do agree with every criticism of it to some degree, but I still really liked it.

[Adami]

Finished Enterprise (Excluding the abortion of a final episode which I will pretend doesn't exist).

Not too hard considering the entire episode was a holodeck simulation. Technically we're not seeing any of the real story first hand, so let's just pretend the records from that era are sketchy and wrong.

I heard everyone say how bad TATV was, and I thought "meh, fans are nitpicky about everything, I'm sure it's not that bad." Boy, was I wrong.
Everyone said Endgame was terrible too, but I thought it was pretty good. I do agree with every criticism of it to some degree, but I still really liked it.

Endgame was fine. TATV was Rick whatever pissing inside the rotted out eye sockets of every fan unfortunate enough to watch the episode.

[BlobVanDam]

The sad thing is that Terra Prime just before it was great, and would have made a much better ending to the series, and related a lot better to the series as a whole.

[Adami]

The sad thing is that Terra Prime just before it was great, and would have made a much better ending to the series, and related a lot better to the series as a whole.

I don't understand. Terra Prime was the ending, and it was a great ending.

[BlobVanDam]

Oh my bad. You're right. I think I'm getting confused with that time I had bad gas.

[Adami]

So I'm watching ToS and I have to ask.................why is everyone always sweating? Did anyone else notice this? They are always sweating.

[BlobVanDam]

I've never really noticed, or maybe I'm used to it. My guess would be that the lighting had to be brighter in those days for the cameras. All that lighting on a closed set would heat it up a bit.

[Adami]

I've never really noticed, or maybe I'm used to it. My guess would be that the lighting had to be brighter in those days for the cameras. All that lighting on a closed set would heat it up a bit.

Well obviously there's a logistical reason. It's just...strange. Watch the first season again (not sure how long it lasts) notice that they're all sweating 24/7.

[King Postwhore]

It's Denise Crosby's fault.  She oozes sexuality.  Move over 7 of 9.

[Adami]

It's Denise Crosby's fault.  She oozes sexuality.  Move over 7 of 9.

It's Tasha Yar's fault that The Original Series featured everyone sweating? That's some time traveling sexiness right there.

[King Postwhore]

Oh snap!  thought you were talking about TNG.   My bad.  Blob is rubbing off on me and not like your thinking.  I know how your mind works pal.

[BlobVanDam]

When I see Shatner sweating, I really don't even question it. It just makes sense.

[El Barto]

Never noticed that before, but I fired up a random first season episode and sure enough they were all sweating.  I'd certainly guess stage lighting.  I'm sure all those TNG guys had a set that was precisely 20.1 C at all times.  Not possible in 1968.

While I enjoyed Inner Light, I did have to suffer through some real shit yesterday.  While the concept wasn't bad, Rascals had yet another instance of these people getting their asses thoroughly handed to them by greatly inferior people.  Generally I enjoy that, but 6 half-brained Ferengi is really pushing it.  Worf was particularly inept.  Worse still was Fistful of Datas.  I'm not sure why crusher doing Candle-boy is always held up as the epitome of awful trek, when this thing is out there.  To their credit, they did manage to throw in a few funny jokes, but overall it was just terrible. 

I also never realized what a terrible actor young Alexander is.  Christ, that kid's awful.  The kid that played young Annikan was Olivier compared to him. 

[BlobVanDam]

You never noticed how awful Alexander is? First of all, he's a kid actor. That should have been your first clue. Secondly, he did suck pretty bad.

[El Barto]

He never had enough screen time to really force an opinion.  He was a featured character in FoD.

And as I pointed out before, they're already playing up the Worf/Troi thing quite a bit.  You can tell they're setting the stage for that whole thing pretty early on.

[rumborak]

There's that one scene with Worf and Troi where she gives him a shoulder massage. It always struck me that a teensy Betazoid woman probably couldn't help a tight Klingon muscle

rumborak

[The King in Crimson]

Ooh yeah, Fistful of Datas, that's a dumb one.

Inner Light, however, is fantastic.  One of my favorite Trek episodes.  Picard always seems to get the good ones.

[Orbert]

The Inner Light is awesome.  Great concept, slightly flawed execution, but Picard really sells it.  The ending almost breaks the magic spell, but I'm okay with it, I guess.

[El Barto]

The ending certainly opened up some plot holes.  Would have been better to let him die of old age, wake up back on the bridge, and then piece together what the meaning of it all was. 

Still, good episode.

[Adami]

What plot holes did the ending open up?



Also, about midway through the first season of TOS. Almost all of it so far is pretty terrible. Awful acting, awful writing, awful stories. Not sure why this show gets held to such a totally different standard than any other ST. But whatever.

[BlobVanDam]

The really good episodes of TOS don't come until at least the second half of season 1. At least wait until you've seen Space Seed and The City on the Edge of Forever before completely writing it off, as I found them to be great episodes, and I mostly think TOS is a bit of a laugh.

[Adami]

The really good episodes of TOS don't come until at least the second half of season 1. At least wait until you've seen Space Seed and The City on the Edge of Forever before completely writing it off, as I found them to be great episodes, and I mostly think TOS is a bit of a laugh.

I've seen all of those episodes. I know they're good. I know TOS has some great stuff. But it seems the vast majority is awful, yet it gets a pass for just about everything meanwhile every other ST gets scrutinized to the point of nausea. Some of the TNG episodes lacked internal logic? KILL IT!

90% of TOS episodes lacked any sense of logic? Not important. Bones, Kirk and Spock were cool.

Troi was a worthless character? Damn that show!

Sulu, Chekov, Uhura and everyone other than Kirk, Bones and Spock are worthless characters? Who cares, Kirk, Bones and Spock are cool.

It's just annoying that TOS gets away with just about anything while every other ST show gets ripped apart by a lot of people.

[BlobVanDam]

The really good episodes of TOS don't come until at least the second half of season 1. At least wait until you've seen Space Seed and The City on the Edge of Forever before completely writing it off, as I found them to be great episodes, and I mostly think TOS is a bit of a laugh.

I've seen all of those episodes. I know they're good. I know TOS has some great stuff. But it seems the vast majority is awful, yet it gets a pass for just about everything meanwhile every other ST gets scrutinized to the point of nausea. Some of the TNG episodes lacked internal logic? KILL IT!

90% of TOS episodes lacked any sense of logic? Not important. Bones, Kirk and Spock were cool.

I agree entirely there. Maybe 1/4 of TOS was great stuff I can enjoy somewhat seriously, then the rest is just campy fun that I enjoy for its hilarity. It doesn't get a free pass from me.

I remember one time on a Star Trek forum, I said that the original crappy colourful painted wooden sets of TOS didn't hold up in "In a Mirror Darkly", and someone else got super angry at me and said they found that comment "offensive". Seriously?

[Adami]

I think I'm going to count maybe 10 episodes of TOS (along with all of the movies) to be cannon and just kind of consider the rest sci-fi experiments.

[BlobVanDam]

Aw, you mean the American Constitution planet, the Nazi planet, the Roman Jesus planet, the ability to time travel easily by flying past a sun, the death penalty for visiting forbidden planets, and the Abraham Lincoln planet aren't canon?

I ignore most of TOS for canon too. Every time it gets enforced, it just screws up all of the better Trek anyway. They were making it up as they went, sometimes they hit the mark, and sometimes they missed by a wide margin.

[Adami]

Aw, you mean the American Constitution planet, the Nazi planet, the Roman Jesus planet, the ability to time travel easily by flying past a sun, the death penalty for visiting forbidden planets, and the Abraham Lincoln planet aren't canon?

I ignore most of TOS for canon too. Every time it gets enforced, it just screws up all of the better Trek anyway. They were making it up as they went, sometimes they hit the mark, and sometimes they missed by a wide margin.

Space Seed obviously gets to be cannon, City on the Edge of Forever as well. I'm terrible with names so I can't remember others at the moment. Oh the Naked Time too, only because it's referenced in TNG, and Sulu is hilarious in it.

I also noticed that (at least as of The Conscience of the King) that when they go to warp...........nothing changes. They don't even seem to go faster. He just sort of says it and they stay the same speed.


Also apparently any federation ship can, within a few days, travel to the edge of the galaxy. You know, the same galaxy where almost EVERY other star trek incident took place.

[BlobVanDam]

I also noticed that (at least as of The Conscience of the King) that when they go to warp...........nothing changes. They don't even seem to go faster. He just sort of says it and they stay the same speed.


Also apparently any federation ship can, within a few days, travel to the edge of the galaxy. You know, the same galaxy where almost EVERY other star trek incident took place.

It's like that in every episode, unfortunately. They never actually show warp as being any different to impulse (did they call it that in TOS?). That bugged me every time, they'd say "warp 6!" then just slowly drift out of orbit. It wasn't until TMP that warp actually did something visibly different.

They really didn't care about consistency for distance/time in TOS. They just did whatever worked for that single episode. The original Enterprise could travel to the edge of the galaxy in a matter of hours, while Voyager was supposed to take 70 years to get from one quadrant to another.

[chknptpie]

Got to see Shatner yesterday at Phoenix Comicon. TNG Panel today!!!

[El Barto]

If Troi were just worthless then I could see your point, but she's more than that.  She's a fucking irritant.  When Sulu starts acting like a whiny, histrionic cunt ever episode, your criticism will have merit.  Until then he's just a background character. 

As for the overall quality of the two shows, it seems to me that the breakdown of poor/good/great episodes by season is about the same.  TOS had tons of really rotten episodes; no different than TNG. And if we're going to start comparing the quality of shows, keep in mind that you can only compare the first three seasons of TNG.  There was some good work in there, but very little of the great work.

I would suggest that the Abraham Lincoln planet was a cut above the wild West episode of TNG I just watched.  At least they bothered explaining that.  For every time TOS gets stuck on some stupid Earth throw back planet, there's a TNG episode where they're stuck in a malfunctioning holodeck version of the same place. 

As for canon, what reason did they have to give a shit?  They had no money and no expectation that there would be another show beyond the one they were currently filming.  Nor did they have a huge fan base.  TOS was incidentally produced for people who weren't even around yet.  I find it harder to overlook plot holes for a series that was designed from the get-go to be the start of a huge franchise with a preexisting fan base of anal-retentive geek-boys. 



As for Inner Light plot holes, they were all minor; nothing to really hurt an otherwise fine episode.  There were some real questions, though.  Did the people he spent a lifetime with know all along, and therefore just acting?  Were they even real at all?  How did they know it had been/would be 1000 years?  Was the entire thing pre-scripted, or was he allowed free will?  It would appear the latter considering the development of his kids, the scientist and the flute player.  What if whoever they picked hated music?  Like I say, nothing hugely important, but the ending with everybody he knows just popping up and telling him the truth was simplistic and caused a lot of this.  What I suggested would have worked quite a lot better.  It wouldn't have opened up so many questions and actually would have been much better from the dramatic POV.  A neat and tidy ending wasn't necessary here.

[BlobVanDam]

I would suggest that the Abraham Lincoln planet was a cut above the wild West episode of TNG I just watched.  At least they bothered explaining that.  For every time TOS gets stuck on some stupid Earth throw back planet, there's a TNG episode where they're stuck in a malfunctioning holodeck version of the same place. 

But a holodeck makes sense. There is zero sense in some random planet nobody has ever visited before being an exact copy of Earth's history, other than them needing to raid the costume department to save money that week. And it never got explained reasonably. A holodeck doesn't need explanation. Sure, the idea of the holodeck malfunctioning 80% of the time is undoubtedly contrived, but at least it could be explained. That's the big difference.
How did they explain a planet with the US constitution? They didn't. How did they explain a Roman planet with a concept of Jesus? That makes zero sense (nor did the smug BS at the end with the whole crew getting super excited that the good old fashioned US values of Christianity were about to conquer the planet).
How did they explain a Nazi planet? Some crap that made zero sense. Every episode of TOS was a giant plothole.

TOS was more of a parallel universe travel show, rather than a space travel show. They didn't explain it most of the time, and when they did explain it, it only works as an idea of a parallel universe, not in any real sense of space and time. TOS is a fun show, but even factoring in everything else, I don't know how it can possibly be seriously compared to anything that came after it.

[El Barto]

You're one for three there.  The Roman and Nazi planet both had Earth captains imposing historic values on them.  Same thing with the gangster planet.  If you want to take it a bit further, they bump into a Greek god who instilled a common mythology in Earth.  No reason that couldn't have been happening elsewhere.  Actually, I believe TNG hit on that concept a few times.  Furthermore, the belief in some sort of God seems to be commonplace.  Once you establish that everybody has some sort of divine beliefs, there's no reason why similarities can't develop from that point.

For that matter, how likely is it that planets they'd visit would have humans on it at all.  I'm not talking about the twat-faced humanoids, but real people.  Those guys who sadly didn't get to execute Wesley were idealized humans.  You saw a lot of that, generally in weeks where their makeup budget was being saved up for the big two-parter in the middle of the season.

I'm not pointing these out to bag on TNG.  My opinion of it has actually improved somewhat.  I'm just pointing out that many of the criticisms apply to both, and IMO, TOS actually had an excuse for it that TNG was lacking.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm only counting internal explanations, not the fact it's an old show that they didn't think anyone would care about in 40 years. If the show has plotholes, it has plotholes. When an entire franchise is built upon a series, I won't give it any leeway. It has far too much to answer for in later series.

In the Roman episode, the Starfleet captain didn't bring the Roman influence, they already existed that way with "Roman values", and I'm pretty sure the Jesus guys existed long before they arrived too.

You've got me on the Nazi episode though. I just skimmed it, and they even pointed out there the fact it was impossible it naturally evolved like that. The thing that happens in all these TOS episodes is that they usually only explain these things at the end of the episode as a quick throwaway thing to try and get away with it, so I forget them a lot of the time.

In the case of the gangster planet, and the nazi planet, it is still a ludicrous excuse that one person or book comes along, and an entire planet just 100% embraces it with not the slightest deviation.
All they had on the gangster planet was ONE book. And from that, they had the speech patterns, the clothes, CARS, GUNS, the architecture. There's no denying it's a lazy excuse to go cheap on props and costumes. That kind of transparency really kills those episodes for me for anything but outright humour value.

Off the top of my head, aside from one episode I can think of (the um, old hotel thingy? I hope you know what one I mean ), I don't recall TNG having such blatantly poor explanations for other worlds, or such obvious carbon copies of Earth week after week.