DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
General => Movies and TV => Topic started by: MetalJunkie on December 20, 2010, 11:41:29 PM
-
Trekkies, unite!
I just watched The Voyage Home (twice). Such a great movie.
Driver: Get out of the way, dumbass!
Kirk: Well.... Double-dumbass on you!
-
Spock: "Just one damn minute, Captain."
:lol
-
(https://www.nerdsonsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/kirk.jpg)
-
(https://www.millionaireplayboy.com/mpb/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/good_trekv_04.jpg)
-
Okay . . . what's everyone's expectations for Star Trek XII?
-
Not much.
Massive budget, space explosions, cheesy one liners, bad rehashing of previously established character in the Star Trek universe, hint of a third movie POSSIBLY WITH KLINGONS AND TRIBBLES OMFG LOL.
-
Just watched Voyager's series finale "endgame" and it sucked. I haven't seen it in years and I wish I could unsee it from last night :(
-
Just watched Voyager's series finale "endgame" and it sucked. I haven't seen it in years and I wish I could unsee it from last night :(
Yeah... such a cop-out ending to Voyager.
-
I'm a TNG girl!
But on note for the original, why does Old William Shatner look nothing like Young William Shatner? Does anyone watch #*@^ My Dad Says? He looks nothing like himself! haha
-
Only Star Trek I ever really liked as a whole was Deep Space Nine, and that's one of my favourite all time shows. The other series, and movies, were just too inconsistent.
-
William Shatner is almost 80! You'd never guess from his appearance alone!
-
Just resumed watching DS9 after yet another hiatus and picked up at two back-to-back great episodes dealing with moral ambiguity. Inquisition which introduces Sloan and Section 31, which is a pretty good episode, and In the Pale Moonlight, which is one of the 3 or 4 best episodes they ever did.
It's a trip to think that Garak was only supposed to be a one-off character. By the end of it, he's probably my favorite character from the series.
And something occurred to me last night. It's a real shame Enterprise was so bad, as the Xindi were a fantastic idea for villains. One planet with evolution to sentience occurring in 6 different animal kingdoms; each adopting roles and characteristics unique to their own race. I'd really like to go back and re-watch that whole deal, but I don't think I could stomach all of the rest of it.
-
that chick on DS9...the host with the symbiot living inside her...she was smokin.
-
Jadzia or Ezri? Either way, yes she was.
The first three series are fantastic. Voyager and Enterprise I can live without.
-
It's all about Jadzia. She was my nerdy pin up when I was a kid.
-
ya...I beamed her into my pants on more than one teen fantasy occasion. 7 of 9 might have been there as well.
-
Was going to post this in the Funny Stuff thread, but thought here might be more appropriate.
(https://i.imgur.com/OSMyF.jpg)
-
:lol
I love Foxtrot.
-
:rollin
-
Nice.
And any ST rocks. I know everyone here hates Enterprise, but the last 2 seasons of it were purley amazing.
However, I'm pretty sure Enterprise has the worst last episode of any show in history.
-
:lol
I love Foxtrot.
me too.
oh, and Picard will always be superior to Kirk :biggrin:
-
Nice.
And any ST rocks. I know everyone here hates Enterprise, but the last 2 seasons of it were purley amazing.
However, I'm pretty sure Enterprise has the worst last episode of any show in history.
I enjoyed Enterprise, and I agree with you on the last episode.
-
William Shatner is almost 80! You'd never guess from his appearance alone!
Damn, is he really that old now?!
-
Love Star Trek, much more than Star Wars. (which seems to be the two most common camps)
I recently tried to decide which episodes were worse, the ones focusing on Troi, or the ones focusing on Beverly. Troi had more about her, but Beverly had Sub Rosa, which makes up in terribility for at least a few Troi ones.
rumborak
-
Love Star Trek, much more than Star Wars. (which seems to be the two most common camps)
I recently tried to decide which episodes were worse, the ones focusing on Troi, or the ones focusing on Beverly. Troi had more about her, but Beverly had Sub Rosa, which makes up in terribility for at least a few Troi ones.
rumborak
Was Sub Rosa the one about the ghost who lives in the candle or whatever?
I never really learned episode titles.
And yea. I like the Star Trek universe way more than the Star Wars one. So far I'm town between the Star Trek universe, or the Stargate Universe.
-
Love Star Trek, much more than Star Wars. (which seems to be the two most common camps)
I recently tried to decide which episodes were worse, the ones focusing on Troi, or the ones focusing on Beverly. Troi had more about her, but Beverly had Sub Rosa, which makes up in terribility for at least a few Troi ones.
rumborak
Was Sub Rosa the one about the ghost who lives in the candle or whatever?
Indeed. Where this Chippendale guy pleases her nightly and shit.
rumborak
-
And he lives in a candle.
Can't forget that part.
-
And any ST rocks. I know everyone here hates Enterprise, but the last 2 seasons of it were purley amazing.
However, I'm pretty sure Enterprise has the worst last episode of any show in history.
What I saw of the last episode was ridiculous, so I agree.
I had started to get really interested in the series during the third season, but the end of the season finale just made me disgusted with the show once and for all.
-
Wait, the end of the 3rd season pissed you off?
I'm confused, unless you mean the end of the 4th season, which as I stated is true.
But you can easily just act like that episode doesn't exist. The show pretty much ends the episode before hand, and works out just lovely and amazing.
-
Yes, when they ended up with the Nazis. It all felt like a crap gimmick to the show at that point and I just didn't give a shit how they would clean it up.
-
Yes, when they ended up with the Nazis. It all felt like a crap gimmick to the show at that point and I just didn't give a shit how they would clean it up.
You didn't see the result?
Sure it didn't have much of a point, but it was pretty cool none the less.
-
It was stupidity thrown right into when the show had been hitting a stride. It emphasized how the powers that be just sucked.
-
It was stupidity thrown right into when the show had been hitting a stride. It emphasized how the powers that be just sucked.
No offense, but how can you see 1/9th or whatever of a story and deem it horrible and worthy of making an entire 4 season TV show not worth watching ever again?
I mean, do you have ANY idea how many horrible stories were in TOS, TNG, DS9 or Voyager?
-
Hell yeah I'm a big Star Trek rube. :hat I love the first 3 series with DS9 being one of my all-time favorite shows, that show had some great writing and the best cast of Trek. I got bored of Enterprise early but it did get better the last two seasons. Besides the Doctor Voyage only had a few good eps here and there.
-
Hell yeah I'm a big Star Trek rube. :hat I love the first 3 series with DS9 being one of my all-time favorite shows, that show had some great writing and the best cast of Trek. I got bored of Enterprise early but it did get better the last two seasons. Besides the Doctor Voyage only had a few good eps here and there.
Voyager suffered from having a really boring and lame cast. They had the doctor, who pretty much ran the show, and neelix was cool. But the rest were just ...........meh.
-
No offense, but how can you see 1/9th or whatever of a story and deem it horrible and worthy of making an entire 4 season TV show not worth watching ever again?
I mean, do you have ANY idea how many horrible stories were in TOS, TNG, DS9 or Voyager?
I had seen most of the first two seasons and lost interest in the series. Mostly I just looked forward to episodes with Andorans at that point and so stopped watching. I was getting back into the series by chance somewhere near the end of the third season, but with that end I just didn't care any more.
Yes, I do not like TOS, TNG, or Voyager as wholes because of how inconsistent they are, as I said before. Too much really bad mixed in with not enough great. DS9 is the only one I've ever really liked as a whole. In my mind they only usually had a few bad episodes per season, and those episodes were rarely important in the grand scheme of the series.
-
Why do you hate white people?
-
I own TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise complete series on DVD. I've watched the first three, and I'm halfway through season 1 of Enterprise. When I'm done with Enterprise I'll try to find good deals on ToS and the movies I don't own.
and to echo what El Barto said, In The Pale Moonlight was one of the best episodes of any series.
...and Sub Rosa was about as low as any of the series went. I think you need to make a drinking game out of it to make it tolerable.
-
Earlier this year I watched every episode (almost) of TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise.
I skipped Sub Rosa. Yea, I watched the entire first season of TNG and I had to skip Sub Rosa. I would rather watch Wesley build a deflector array out of a toy than watch an alien who lives in a lamp.
-
Yeah as good as TNG got after a couple of seasons that first season was brutal.
-
Also, I'd like to appreciate a few specific characters that weren't the main crew.....in no order.
1. Q. Seriously, everything that man did was brilliant. Greatest alien ever? Yes. Still curious what he was trying to tell Picard at the end of All Good Things....
2. O'Brien. Best human character. Gotta love a charcter who went from being a background person to a main character. And I plan on naming my eventual son after him.
3. Jeffrey Combs. Not a character, but it's faster and easier to name the actor rather than every character he played because they were all amazing.
4. L'waxana (or however it's spelled). No explanaiton needed.
5. Species 8472. They didn't let this species live up to their full potential, probably because they realized they created the most intense species ever who could easily take out the entire federation if they had wanted to.
Feel free to add more, I'm sure there's tons. But don't list Picard and Data or the main important people.
-
Hell yeah I'm a big Star Trek rube. :hat I love the first 3 series with DS9 being one of my all-time favorite shows, that show had some great writing and the best cast of Trek. I got bored of Enterprise early but it did get better the last two seasons. Besides the Doctor Voyage only had a few good eps here and there.
Voyager suffered from having a really boring and lame cast. They had the doctor, who pretty much ran the show, and neelix was cool. But the rest were just ...........meh.
The direction the show took really hurt the characters from coming into their own, though. The first episode was really good, but after that the whole stranded enemies forced together to survive premise up and vanished. They could have developed a more unique identity if the show hadn't just turned into TNG v2.
-
Or if the characters had ANY depth.
It's sad when a hologram has more depth than a person.
-
Shran was probably the only redeeming aspect of Enterprise.
Having disposable Weyouns was a great gimmick.
-
Shran was probably the only redeeming aspect of Enterprise.
Having disposable Weyouns was a great gimmick.
The third season rocked, stop bashing the entire show based off a bad season or two. Every show had those. I have no idea why enterprise gets singled out for it.
-
Or if the characters had ANY depth.
It's sad when a hologram has more depth than a person.
The characters were fine in the beginning for molding into an interesting lot, the show's direction just wasn't that character driven. Shame really, of all the Star Trek series this show probably had the best premise and most potential for a great set of characters due to what should have been the sheer stress of their situation.
Shran was probably the only redeeming aspect of Enterprise.
Definitely the most interesting part of the first half of Enterprise. I always wished they had more going on with the Andorans in the first two seasons.
-
Favorite alien species...the Ferengi. Not because they were particularly likable, or honorable...they always just made good episodes.
-
I was never a big fan of the Ferengi. They'd frustrate me to no end, but unfortunately, Picard never blew enough of them to bits for my satisfaction. My favorite alien race was the Cardassians. Cold, calculating, and brutal.
-
Picard never blew enough of anything to bits for my liking.
-
I would let Picard blow me to bits.
-
You know what I never really thought about? (With a few exceptions in TNG...or maybe just 1) every episode of every Star Trek show takes place in the Milkey Way Galaxy.
Then I look at Stargate where there are multiple galaxies shown.
-
Hell yeah I'm a big Star Trek rube. :hat I love the first 3 series with DS9 being one of my all-time favorite shows, that show had some great writing and the best cast of Trek. I got bored of Enterprise early but it did get better the last two seasons. Besides the Doctor Voyage only had a few good eps here and there.
Voyager suffered from having a really boring and lame cast. They had the doctor, who pretty much ran the show, and neelix was cool. But the rest were just ...........meh.
I said it before and I'll say it again, Neelix is the Jar Jar Binks of ST.
He was such an annoying character and I would cringe whenever he got some serious screen time.
As for the doctor, he was brilliant.
-
(https://www.geeksix.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/star-trek-mens-skirt.png)
-
Hell yeah I'm a big Star Trek rube. :hat I love the first 3 series with DS9 being one of my all-time favorite shows, that show had some great writing and the best cast of Trek. I got bored of Enterprise early but it did get better the last two seasons. Besides the Doctor Voyage only had a few good eps here and there.
Voyager suffered from having a really boring and lame cast. They had the doctor, who pretty much ran the show, and neelix was cool. But the rest were just ...........meh.
I said it before and I'll say it again, Neelix is the Jar Jar Binks of ST.
He was such an annoying character and I would cringe whenever he got some serious screen time.
As for the doctor, he was brilliant.
Ok, he was a bit overly cheery at times, but Jar Jar? That's just rude. He had some amazing episodes.
-
Also, I'd like to appreciate a few specific characters that weren't the main crew.....in no order.
1. Q. Seriously, everything that man did was brilliant. Greatest alien ever? Yes. Still curious what he was trying to tell Picard at the end of All Good Things....
2. O'Brien. Best human character. Gotta love a charcter who went from being a background person to a main character. And I plan on naming my eventual son after him.
3. Jeffrey Combs. Not a character, but it's faster and easier to name the actor rather than every character he played because they were all amazing.
4. L'waxana (or however it's spelled). No explanaiton needed.
5. Species 8472. They didn't let this species live up to their full potential, probably because they realized they created the most intense species ever who could easily take out the entire federation if they had wanted to.
Feel free to add more, I'm sure there's tons. But don't list Picard and Data or the main important people.
I'd add Lt Barclay to the list.
-
I own TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise complete series on DVD. I've watched the first three, and I'm halfway through season 1 of Enterprise. When I'm done with Enterprise I'll try to find good deals on ToS and the movies I don't own.
and to echo what El Barto said, In The Pale Moonlight was one of the best episodes of any series.
...and Sub Rosa was about as low as any of the series went. I think you need to make a drinking game out of it to make it tolerable.
Yeah, there's a great write-up of Sub Rosa at The Agony Booth.
-
.
-
might I suggest a poll in the poll section or perhaps multiple polls.......favorite show, favorite character, favorite episode etc etc
-
might I suggest a poll in the poll section or perhaps multiple polls.......favorite show, favorite character, favorite episode etc etc
I'd be down for that.
Need someone to set it up, I'd do it but I'm leaving to Canada for a few weeks with limited internet connection.
-
Earlier this year I watched every episode (almost) of TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise.
I skipped Sub Rosa. Yea, I watched the entire first season of TNG and I had to skip Sub Rosa. I would rather watch Wesley build a deflector array out of a toy than watch an alien who lives in a lamp.
In watching TNG there are two episodes I tend to skip, Sub Rosa as you mentioned and Shades of Grey which is nothing more than a clip show and not worth watching. I agree, that these are by far the worst two episodes of the whole series.
-
You know, I just looked up what caused that horrendous episode. Apparently it was because of the 1988 Writers Guild's strike; they needed one more episode for the season and thus constructed it from old footage.
rumborak
-
Earlier this year I watched every episode (almost) of TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise.
I skipped Sub Rosa. Yea, I watched the entire first season of TNG and I had to skip Sub Rosa. I would rather watch Wesley build a deflector array out of a toy than watch an alien who lives in a lamp.
In watching TNG there are two episodes I tend to skip, Sub Rosa as you mentioned and Shades of Grey which is nothing more than a clip show and not worth watching. I agree, that these are by far the worst two episodes of the whole series.
Shades of Grey was on TV here last week :lol
-
might I suggest a poll in the poll section or perhaps multiple polls.......favorite show, favorite character, favorite episode etc etc
I'd be down for that.
Need someone to set it up, I'd do it but I'm leaving to Canada for a few weeks with limited internet connection.
YAY canada!!!
what part?
I suck at setting up polls...but it is without a doubt the biggest NEW PART of the forum that I've been contributing to over this past year. I know it's not "new" but it's new that I'm going there and voting on stuff. I just can't seem to get rid of PT in KevShmev's band poll..fuck I've been voting for that pile of crap for a few weeks now and they just wont go!
carry on
Mr.Scott!!!
-
might I suggest a poll in the poll section or perhaps multiple polls.......favorite show, favorite character, favorite episode etc etc
I'd be down for that.
Need someone to set it up, I'd do it but I'm leaving to Canada for a few weeks with limited internet connection.
YAY canada!!!
what part?
I suck at setting up polls...but it is without a doubt the biggest NEW PART of the forum that I've been contributing to over this past year. I know it's not "new" but it's new that I'm going there and voting on stuff. I just can't seem to get rid of PT in KevShmev's band poll..fuck I've been voting for that pile of crap for a few weeks now and they just wont go!
carry on
Mr.Scott!!!
I'm going to Markham. My buddy is there and I'm staying with him and his family. I'll be spending time also at there cottage which is in Newmarket IIRC.
-
Interesting questions that I came up with while watching all the TOS movies from Motion Picture to VI (skipping Final Frontier)
a few spoilers below.
1) It always struck me odd that in Star Trek III the boarding Klingons never put 2 and 2 together for a countdown on a ship when they couldn't find anyone. The movie never set up the fact that they were stupid or even incompetent. In fact the movie set up that crew as well disciplined. Well except for the tart who accidently blew up the science vessel when he was supposed to only disable it.
2) In Star Trek II it was established that Spock was NOT the programmer for the Kobiashe Maroo scenario and in fact that Spock was rather interested (as a Vulcan would be) with Kirk's rather unconventional solution. In the new movie it is never established that Spock's timeline ever changed and especially given that we are to assume that certain events "would" change especially with Kirk's timeline, but not necessarly Spock's timeline. In the end, Spock is now the original programmer of the scenerio and now detests Kirk's solution to the point where he thinks Kirk should be expelled. I found that rather interesting.
3) Whatever happened to Maltz from Star Trek III? It is never established in the end nor in Star Trek IV.
4) In the end of Star Trek IV it is obvious that Spock does not want to go into the water when Kirk is trying to coax him in. This goes unanswered. It cannot be because he is afraid of water or cannot swim as this is proved false when he dives into the whale tank to mind meld with the Whale. So this reaction at the end goes unanswered.
5) It is rather strange in Star Trek VI for Varalis (the Vulcan pilot) to tell the crew to sabatoge the ship as to not return to space dock. As Spock remarked later, if they did return, the evidence can therefore be dumped and they will never know the culprit. Since she is in fact part of the guilty party one would think she would want to return to space dock thus should not have offered the suggestion in the first place.
-
1. The Klingons probably assumed the crew were hiding. They were expecting an ambush.
2. The movie does not follow the same rules. Different universe. (Different timeline, actually)
3. I think Kirk kicked him off of that ledge on the Genesis planet. I HAVE HAD...ENOUGH...OF...YOU!
4. Vulcans don't consider frolicking in the San Francisco Bay to be a worthwhile endeavor.
5. There were too many plot holes with that chick to count. Good movie, but they dropped the ball with her.
-
DS9 is THE shit.
-
Thought it was a shame some of the Enterprise cast perhaps didn't get to develop their characters more. I keep forgetting some of them e.g. Mayweather, Malcolm, Hoshi.
Also saw some Quantum Leap recently and it didn't seem to have aged much at all. I think Bakula is a good actor.
-
I've got to say my favorite episode of DS9 is Far Beyond the Stars. Sisko in his mind goes back to the 50's as a comic bok writer who can't publish his comic book story because of his race was a top notch episode.
That and the Softball episode are my favs.
-
DS9 is THE shit.
I decided today I'd re-watch some of my favorite episodes of DS9, it is my favorite series.
I've got to say my favorite episode of DS9 is Far Beyond the Stars. Sisko in his mind goes back to the 50's as a comic bok writer who can't publish his comic book story because of his race was a top notch episode.
That and the Softball episode are my favs.
agreed, it's a great episode.
-
I've got to say my favorite episode of DS9 is Far Beyond the Stars. Sisko in his mind goes back to the 50's as a comic bok writer who can't publish his comic book story because of his race was a top notch episode.
That and the Softball episode are my favs.
This. And In The Pale Moonlight - a very un-treky episode, but one of the best.
-
I've got to say my favorite episode of DS9 is Far Beyond the Stars. Sisko in his mind goes back to the 50's as a comic bok writer who can't publish his comic book story because of his race was a top notch episode.
That and the Softball episode are my favs.
This. And In The Pale Moonlight - a very un-treky episode, but one of the best.
IT'S A FAAAKKKKEE!
-
I've got to say my favorite episode of DS9 is Far Beyond the Stars. Sisko in his mind goes back to the 50's as a comic bok writer who can't publish his comic book story because of his race was a top notch episode.
That and the Softball episode are my favs.
This. And In The Pale Moonlight - a very un-treky episode, but one of the best.
IT'S A FAAAKKKKEE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwbPRCRkMy0&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lHgbbM9pu4
-
Shows:
Love: TNG (after Season 1), Voyager (after 7of9 arrives)
OK: Enterprise, Original Series
Hate: DS9
Characters:
Love: Picard, Data, 7of9, Doctor, Lt. Barcley, Q, Hoshi, Tripp, Scotty, La Forge, Quark, O'Brien, Deanna Troi, Garrack, Ryker, Tasha Yar, Jadxia Dax, Kaylar
OK: Kirk, Spock, Janeway, The Crushers, Guinan, etc.
Hate: Kes, Worf, Sisco, Momma Troi, Harry Kim, Neelix, Dr. Flox, Belanna Torres, Odo, Alexander (Son of Worf)
Movies:
Love: II, IV, VII, VIII, XI
OK: I, III
Hate: V, VI, IX, X (too Picard/Data-centric)
Races:
Love: Borg, Romulan, Jem'Hadar (what the Klingons should have been)
OK: Vulcan, Cardassian
Hate: Klingon (too primitively violent to even be warp-capable), Ferengie (too stupid), Founders, Reman, blue-antenna guys
-
Hate: DS9
Question if you don't mind me asking but what do you hate about DS9? I find it's my favorite series and I'm curious why you dislike it.
-
Hate: DS9
Question if you don't mind me asking but what do you hate about DS9? I find it's my favorite series and I'm curious why you dislike it.
There's only 1 reason to hate DS9. Complete insanity. Even if it did have the overall worst acting.
-
How can you hate Laxwana (spelling, anyone?) Troi? Her episodes were some of the best of Next Generation! And I wouldn't really call the Klingons "primatively" violent. I believe there are several mentions of Klingon scientists throughout the series. They just hold tradition (lots of which revolves around ancient violence) in high regard. They're driven more by honor than anything. That shouldn't stop them from developing warp capabilities. Ferengi aren't really stupid, either. That's what I like about them. They're kind of a comic relief race, but they've got quite the business smarts.
Basically I'm disagreeing with what most of PetFish is saying at this point :lol
-
"What does that little one do, Mr. Woof?"
Lwaxana episodes were great! Especially when Picard gets Data's unwitting help to evade her romantic advances and then hides in the holodeck. ("Manhunt")
-
I hated DS9 cuz mostly cuz of the storylines. I think being in a stationary place (DS9) and having most of the adventures come to you or at least start out there didn't work for me. The whole "emissary" thing and Sisco's overall acting ability were lame.
I don't like Deanna's Mom just cuz I don't like her. I think the only part I did enjoy was when she got Picard to profess his love to her and threaten to destroy the Ferengie ship if they didn't return her. That was awesome.
As for the Klingons... it's one thing to be honourable but they take it way beyond anything remotely reasonable. Like when one is dishonoured it dishonours his son and his son for 3 generations (or something like that). So does that mean his grandkids can't get a job at McKlingon's? When Commander Kern says that normally he would have killed Ryker for offering a suggestion on how to make the ship run better, come on, that's a subordinate's job, to help his superiors make choices as long as they don't break the chain of command. How does a Klingon even grow up to be an adult? It seems like they can be killed for just about any reason and it's OK. I will say they have the coolest weapon ever with the bat'leth.
I guess my major complaint about Klingons probably centres on Worf. His character blew but maybe it was mainly the wooden acting. His fight scenes were just so stupid. Other Klingons are much more exciting with actual personalities. It's funny how 96% of Worf's suggestions (ie Captain, I recommend we raise shields) are shot down by Picard. Although I will say the episode where Worf keeps skipping through quantum realities is one of my all-time favourites.
Every series and character has great moments, don't get me wrong, but overall my opinions represent how I generally feel about them.
:)
-
Hate: DS9
Question if you don't mind me asking but what do you hate about DS9? I find it's my favorite series and I'm curious why you dislike it.
There's only 1 reason to hate DS9. Complete insanity. Even if it did have the overall worst acting.
I have to respectfully disagree with you.
While every series of ST had some good and great acting, I think DS9 had the most solid acting from the entire main cast.
I too didn't like Sisko's acting at the start but I think it had some great development over the course of the series making it's peak at season 6 & 7.
-
Hate: DS9
Question if you don't mind me asking but what do you hate about DS9? I find it's my favorite series and I'm curious why you dislike it.
There's only 1 reason to hate DS9. Complete insanity. Even if it did have the overall worst acting.
I have to respectfully disagree with you.
While every series of ST had some good and great acting, I think DS9 had the most solid acting from the entire main cast.
I too didn't like Sisko's acting at the start but I think it had some great development over the course of the series making it's peak at season 6 & 7.
Also, the character development of Gul Dukat was probably the best written thing in the entire ST universe.
-
Gul Dukat's descent into insanity after his daughter's death was great.
-
3. I think Kirk kicked him off of that ledge on the Genesis planet. I HAVE HAD...ENOUGH...OF...YOU!
4. Vulcans don't consider frolicking in the San Francisco Bay to be a worthwhile endeavor.
3. That was Kruge, Christopher Lloyd's character, who got kicked. Maltz was the guy who accidentally saved Kirk and Company by beaming them aboard the Klingon ship. Kirk said he'd kill him later, Maltz said he did not deserve to live, then we never saw him again.
4. The scene with them jumping into the water almost looked like outtake footage. They were playing around and stuff. It does definitely look like Nimoy doesn't want to go into the water.
-
Gul Dukat's descent into insanity after his daughter's death was great.
Yes it was. That whole arc where he seduces the old bajoran religious figure (forget her name) and they plan to release the Pa'Wraiths was so good.
-
Star Trek is best whenever there is war and action. It'a a male soap opera. Just ask Kirk and Riker.
-
Gul Dukat's descent into insanity after his daughter's death was great.
Yes it was. That whole arc where he seduces the old bajoran religious figure (forget her name) and they plan to release the Pa'Wraiths was so good.
Her name was Adami and it freaked me out so much.
-
Gul Dukat's descent into insanity after his daughter's death was great.
Yes it was. That whole arc where he seduces the old bajoran religious figure (forget her name) and they plan to release the Pa'Wraiths was so good.
Her name was Adami and it freaked me out so much.
Adami was such a solid bitch throughout the whole series.
-
:rollin
-
1. The Klingons probably assumed the crew were hiding. They were expecting an ambush.
2. The movie does not follow the same rules. Different universe. (Different timeline, actually)
3. I think Kirk kicked him off of that ledge on the Genesis planet. I HAVE HAD...ENOUGH...OF...YOU!
4. Vulcans don't consider frolicking in the San Francisco Bay to be a worthwhile endeavor.
5. There were too many plot holes with that chick to count. Good movie, but they dropped the ball with her.
1) True, as Kruge also assumed this as well, the minute he heard the countdown was the minute he figured it out. It's a nitpicking part but nonetheless a bit strange.
2) But there lies the problem. IF the 2009 movie is supposed to be a "new" universe then we really don't "need" to establish the old universe. You can just establish the new universe by introducing the changed elements and going from there. This would explain Spock now being the programmer for the Kobiashe Moroue. However the fact that the movie DOES establish that this "universe" is attached in some way to the other universe of the original Star Trek thus establishes that we are in fact looking backward in time at the same universe, which as now been altered by the Romulans which means that Kirk's timeline is the only one altered and anything the Romulans encountered in the 20 years since that incident. This doesn't explain why Spock is now the programmer and in fact it contradicts that point completely. All in all, it doesn't really matter as it's only a movie but it does establish yet ANOTHER plot hole in the 2009 movie. Oh well.
5) I read that Valaris was supposed to be Savak from Star Trek II and III but Kim Catrall didn't want to be the third actress to be Savik and thus pined to have the character changed. As for any other plot holes with her, I don't remember any, except for a plot hole that I think most people missed. IMDB lists it thank God. The final scene with the Enterprise, Excelsior and The Bird of Prey, they destroy the Bird of Prey with a modified Torpedo that uses equipment to map gaseous anamolies. Um... The Enterprise would not have that equipment on board as they came from spacedock on a diplomatic mission, not a scientific mission. However, the Execelsior would have that. But since Kirk needs to be the one to destroy the Bird of Prey poor Sulu is left to do "nothing". ;)
-
It was established by many that the setup with the Klingon Empire is a paradox. That is, it could never stand nor continue for as long as it does. You can tell during DS9 they were "trying" to tweek the Klingons to make them appear a bit more "possible" but in the end, I agree, it's a race that seriously cannot stand as it involves way too many contradictions and impossible situations.
Oh and I concur. In the Pale Moonlight is easily a contender for greatest Star Trek episode of "all time". That is, of all the episodes of every series, that episode alone could easily be the greatest episode ever made. It's that good.
-
Anybody seen Alexander Siddig on ITV's "Primeval":
https://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s48/primeval/tubetalk/a291926/primeval-week-qa-with-alexander-siddig.html
-
Gul Dukat's descent into insanity after his daughter's death was great.
Dukat was awesome
until they ruined it with season 7.
-
Dukat was still great in season 7. His fall to insanity was done well I thought, and if nothing else it did bring about the fantastic arc surrounding Dumar.
I've always been amused that Marc Alaimo(Dukat) and Salome Jens(Female Changeling) were from my home, Milwaukee. Marc Alaimo even went to the same university as I did.
-
Hate: DS9
Question if you don't mind me asking but what do you hate about DS9? I find it's my favorite series and I'm curious why you dislike it.
There's only 1 reason to hate DS9. Complete insanity. Even if it did have the overall worst acting.
I have to respectfully disagree with you.
While every series of ST had some good and great acting, I think DS9 had the most solid acting from the entire main cast.
I too didn't like Sisko's acting at the start but I think it had some great development over the course of the series making it's peak at season 6 & 7.
I agree, I think DS9 has easily the best ensemble of actors. Avery Brooks ain't a great character actor by any means but I thought he was great for Sisco.
Gul Dukat's descent into insanity after his daughter's death was great.
Dukat was awesome
until they ruined it with season 7.
Yeah Dukat wasn't as fun after he lost his mind. Actaully I thought the Pahwraiths in general was stupid, reducing the the whole Prophets thread to lame good vs. eeeeee-vil stuff. Worst part of the final season I must say.
-
I agree about Dukat taking a turn for the silly in the final season, but it did make for a fantastic subplot with Damar, who was a much more interesting character.
-
3. I think Kirk kicked him off of that ledge on the Genesis planet. I HAVE HAD...ENOUGH...OF...YOU!
That's a different character. Maltz is the guy that gets mad that Kirk didn't keep the promise to kill him when they commandeered the Klingon ship.
-
Even the subplot with Dumar was horrendous. Again I point to Confused Matthew's review on Star Trek DS9 for Season 7. He nailed everything that was wrong with that season. Everything. Dumar and Dukat were my all time favorite characters on the show and I almost imploded from sheer rage when I saw what they did to these characters in Season 7.
However I do disagree a bit with CMs take on Vic. I did enjoy Vic. I thought he had an interesting premise however I do agree that replace Quark's with Vic's was a bad move.
-
Even the subplot with Dumar was horrendous. Again I point to Confused Matthew's review on Star Trek DS9 for Season 7. He nailed everything that was wrong with that season. Everything. Dumar and Dukat were my all time favorite characters on the show and I almost imploded from sheer rage when I saw what they did to these characters in Season 7.
However I do disagree a bit with CMs take on Vic. I did enjoy Vic. I thought he had an interesting premise however I do agree that replace Quark's with Vic's was a bad move.
Dumar was great. Dukat just led him there, while his own devil thing wasn't great. But at least it gave Lois Fletcher something to do other than being a cunt to Kira.
-
Even the subplot with Dumar was horrendous. Again I point to Confused Matthew's review on Star Trek DS9 for Season 7. He nailed everything that was wrong with that season. Everything. Dumar and Dukat were my all time favorite characters on the show and I almost imploded from sheer rage when I saw what they did to these characters in Season 7.
However I do disagree a bit with CMs take on Vic. I did enjoy Vic. I thought he had an interesting premise however I do agree that replace Quark's with Vic's was a bad move.
Dumar was great. Dukat just led him there, while his own devil thing wasn't great. But at least it gave Lois Fletcher something to do other than being a cunt to Kira.
I thought Damar was a pretty uninteresting lackey tbh until that final arc, only to be killed off shortly thereafter.
-
He WAS an uniteresting lacky for a while, then he became a great character. His role with the dominion was great, him murdering Dukats daughter, him becoming a freedom fighter. The whole progression was brilliant.
-
FINALLY a Star Trek thread. I'm divided pretty evenly between the two camps, but I think I'm more familiar with Star Wars than Star Trek. TOS is the best them.
-
FINALLY a Star Trek thread. I'm divided pretty evenly between the two camps, but I think I'm more familiar with Star Wars than Star Trek. TOS is the best them.
Get the hell out of here.
-
I agree with Adami. Once they decided to make Damar an actual character instead of a lackey he was great. I thought he was a lot more interesting than Dukat.
-
I agree with Adami. Once they decided to make Damar an actual character instead of a lackey he was great. I thought he was a lot more interesting than Dukat.
Dukat has about 100 times more charisma than Dumar ever could. But they kind of ruined his character by never really knowing where they were taking him.
But until he became a cult leader, he was amazing too.
-
FINALLY a Star Trek thread. I'm divided pretty evenly between the two camps, but I think I'm more familiar with Star Wars than Star Trek. TOS is the best them.
Get the hell out of here.
Darmok and Jelad at Tenagra!
-
Darmok, on the ocean
-
Zinda, his face black, his eyes red.
-
______, when the walls fell.
-
______, when the walls fell.
Ahhh, Shaka, when the walls fell. The river Temarc in winter.
-
I love that episode! hahaha
-
I love when the alien captain is arguing with his crew about which scenario he and Picard should play out, and at some point he yells "IN WINTER!" and they all snap to attention. I guess the idea of "CHILL!" is pretty universal.
-
Even the subplot with Dumar was horrendous. Again I point to Confused Matthew's review on Star Trek DS9 for Season 7. He nailed everything that was wrong with that season. Everything. Dumar and Dukat were my all time favorite characters on the show and I almost imploded from sheer rage when I saw what they did to these characters in Season 7.
However I do disagree a bit with CMs take on Vic. I did enjoy Vic. I thought he had an interesting premise however I do agree that replace Quark's with Vic's was a bad move.
Dumar was great. Dukat just led him there, while his own devil thing wasn't great. But at least it gave Lois Fletcher something to do other than being a cunt to Kira.
Oops I'm sorry. I did not mean Dumar. I meant the role Lois Fletcher played. Dumar took up the slack for season 7 and I will always love his character for that very reason.
-
FINALLY a Star Trek thread. I'm divided pretty evenly between the two camps, but I think I'm more familiar with Star Wars than Star Trek. TOS is the best them.
I... I think I love you.
-
There definitely should be a more concentrated love with the TOS series. The characters are hands down the most interesting out of any of the other series.
-
It occurs to me that one thing TOS has that none of the others did was a central character triumvirate. While TOS did have Scottie, Checkov, Sulu, Uhura, etc., the key to the show was the perfect balance of McCoy/Kirk/Spock. The three of them combined to make a fantastic nucleus. Each with starkly different mindsets that were always checking each other. Excellent. All of the other shows tried to work in 8 different characters, which made them each less interesting, IMO. The crews just seemed to be a big, happy family lovefest, with all of them getting along great with each other, but never really forming any particular bonds. So one week Data and Riker disagree about something. Who cares? I can't really think of any key relationships like that in the other shows, nor was there ever any real, ongoing tension between any of them. Would any of them have really given a shit if Riker or Geordi had left? I doubt it.
-
It occurs to me that one thing TOS has that none of the others did was a central character triumvirate. While TOS did have Scottie, Checkov, Sulu, Uhura, etc., the key to the show was the perfect balance of McCoy/Kirk/Spock. The three of them combined to make a fantastic nucleus. Each with starkly different mindsets that were always checking each other. Excellent. All of the other shows tried to work in 8 different characters, which made them each less interesting, IMO. The crews just seemed to be a big, happy family lovefest, with all of them getting along great with each other, but never really forming any particular bonds. So one week Data and Riker disagree about something. Who cares? I can't really think of any key relationships like that in the other shows, nor was there ever any real, ongoing tension between any of them. Would any of them have really given a shit if Riker or Geordi had left? I doubt it.
This, but I think I enjoy TOS more in terms of the cultural-historical context. I mean look at it: a time in human history in which all cultures on Earth had finally made peace with one another? A world (or galaxy, I suppose) without poverty, hunger, or disease? Right at home among the utopian ideologies springing up in the late 60s.
-
That's an excellent point. Kirk, McCoy, and Spock argued all the time; Kirk teased McCoy and Spock sometimes, but McCoy and Spock gave each other shit and really meant it. There were disagreements about policy and course of action, but in the end, they (usually) came to an agreement and a plan that worked.
With TNG and the others, everything was so civil and polite and politically correct that it got downright boring sometimes. And yeah, too many main cast members, all fighting for screen time. With Voyager, the crew was actually composed of members of warring factions forced to work together, and after half a season, there wasn't even any mention of it, let alone any conflicts within the crew. Blah.
Conflict creates drama, and drama is more interesting than everything shiny and happy all the time.
-
Good points about Kirk/Spock/McCoy. Harve Bennett talks about that being one of his favorite things about the original series when he was brought on to do Wrath of Khan, and an element he tried to include in the films he worked on. Spock = Logic; McCoy = Passion, emotion; Kirk = Having to reconcile those two sides of human nature to do what was best for the ship.
Of course, for TOS, the focus on those three was in large part do to the limitations of filming they had at the time. I think Roddenberry would have preferred to include the core 7 more (8 if you include Yeoman Rand) for a more balanced cast, but there just wasn't time in the shooting budget to work in so many people.
-
The three of them made for a damned dynamic relationship. Despite all the animosity, McCoy and Spock were still very tight. Kirk was usually the one to bring balance to the two of them, but then McCoy would absolutely rip Kirk a new one on a fairly regular basis. This was something that was sorely lacking in the later series. Try to imagine one of Pickard's minions laying into him the way McCoy would.
Of course, for TOS, the focus on those three was in large part do to the limitations of filming they had at the time. I think Roddenberry would have preferred to include the core 7 more (8 if you include Yeoman Rand) for a more balanced cast, but there just wasn't time in the shooting budget to work in so many people.
I dunno. The other guys all got plenty of time in the episodes they were a part of, it's just that the main three were always the focus. There weren't many episodes that featured all of them, but there were plenty that featured one or two of them as integral characters. But even in an episode that features, lets say Checkov, prominently, it's still about K/S/M.
-
Enterprise tried to bring back that kind of relationship with Archer, Tapal and Trip a bit. And I think it worked quite well.
But of course no one cares, but Enterprise had a boring season or 2, which no other show had.
-
It occurs to me that one thing TOS has that none of the others did was a central character triumvirate. While TOS did have Scottie, Checkov, Sulu, Uhura, etc., the key to the show was the perfect balance of McCoy/Kirk/Spock. The three of them combined to make a fantastic nucleus. Each with starkly different mindsets that were always checking each other. Excellent. All of the other shows tried to work in 8 different characters, which made them each less interesting, IMO. The crews just seemed to be a big, happy family lovefest, with all of them getting along great with each other, but never really forming any particular bonds. So one week Data and Riker disagree about something. Who cares? I can't really think of any key relationships like that in the other shows, nor was there ever any real, ongoing tension between any of them. Would any of them have really given a shit if Riker or Geordi had left? I doubt it.
I thought Picard and Data formed a great dynamic. Riker and Worf were quite good as well although less rarely together. I agree McCoy was tremendous, forcing Kirk and Spock into sanity and humanity respectively on occasion.
Also, appreciating how TNG was not tied to a long-winded story arc now.
-
There were many times when Kirk got pissed off at Spock as well and also times when McCoy chewed out Kirk. 100% agree, the tension between these characters was perfect. They each had character traits that were realistic and showing and none of them were afraid to express these emotions. It's unfortunate that the rest of the crew was left to the background. I would have loved to see the real-life tension of Shatner and Takai expressed on the big screen between Sulu and Kirk perhaps in a way where Kirk had prejudices and Sulu did not. However, in TOS these tensions seemed real because not only did the characters themselves have chemistry but the actors as well. In TNG you seem to see the actors having great chemistry but not the characters. Arguments between Picard and Riker were there but robotic. At the end of the day, all was well and everyone was friendly again. Even when Worf was getting out of line at times that tension never really went anywhere. The episode "Encounter at Farpoint" was a good episode but it really does frustrate you. Just when you think there is going to some character development with a bit of tension between two characters, its dissolved. The only tension that remained was between Picard and Q. Out of all the character development that happened on TNG I say, the development between Picard and Q was hands down the best of the whole series. Q to me was a little like Bones but way more juvenile in the beginning. I'm actually rather glad Q was largely ignored in Deep Space Nine. I believe he was in one episode in an attempt to get him and Sisko to have the same relationship as Picard did. Thank God they ditched it.
Another thing I liked about TOS was the characters ability to say what was on their mind. The lines for the TOS series and movies were far far more "normal" than the TNG series was. The story-telling in TNG was vastly superior, but the characters were a bit too robotic as if the lines were more important than the emotions behind them. Eventually this changed as the series went on, but the characters never developed past a certain line and we never really got too deep into any character to know what traits one has which another completely disagrees with. For example in Encounter at Farpoint, it was depicted early on that Riker does not like Androids. Excellent! We have at least one character with which we can have potential development. But nope. This line was delivered and then forgotten almost immediately afterwards. The tension between Picard and Wesley was excellent for a while, but it never really did make it as far as it could have gone and the episode where Wesley must save Picard's life could have been a heck of a lot more powerful if they took the extra step.
Another thing worth noting. If any character development was done in TNG, it was done with a secondary character, that is a character largely specific to an episode and not specific to the series like the crew. For example we see Worf in a relationship with a another half-blood Klingon and we see excellent character development here, but it's just for this episode alone. If she was a member of the crew, wow! That would have changed the dynamics completely.
-
Good points about Kirk/Spock/McCoy. Harve Bennett talks about that being one of his favorite things about the original series when he was brought on to do Wrath of Khan, and an element he tried to include in the films he worked on. Spock = Logic; McCoy = Passion, emotion; Kirk = Having to reconcile those two sides of human nature to do what was best for the ship.
Of course, for TOS, the focus on those three was in large part do to the limitations of filming they had at the time. I think Roddenberry would have preferred to include the core 7 more (8 if you include Yeoman Rand) for a more balanced cast, but there just wasn't time in the shooting budget to work in so many people.
This type of triumvirate is present in lots of classics, see for example Jules Vernes' Journey to the Center of the Earth. In his mind it would be: Spock - Mind, Kirk - Body, McCoy - Soul. TOS made it work extraordinarily well.
-
Many great works of the last century share that triumvirate: Star Wars (Luke, Leia, and Han), The Matrix (Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus), Harry Potter (Harry, Ron, and Hermione)...even LotR has Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, and in most cases they all correspond to that same mind, body, and soul thing.
-
I thought Picard and Data formed a great dynamic. Riker and Worf were quite good as well although less rarely together. I agree McCoy was tremendous, forcing Kirk and Spock into sanity and humanity respectively on occasion.
Data seemed to be the only character that had any special bond with Pickard, but that wasn't really enough. It was really more of just a closeness than anything else. And sense he was emotionless, he didn't add much. There needed to be a foil for Data/Pickard. From that point, I guess Riker was what blew it for me.
As much as I was glad to see Tasha Yar get killed stupidly, she was the one that could have brought some tension into the crew dynamic. Of course there was obviously the Data thing, but she was generally impulsive and single-minded. But even when she was around they never really explored that very much. Worf was the one that should have brought some real emotion into the fold, but he was really just a wuss for most of TNG. Any time he demonstrated some Klingon balls during the series, it always felt scripted and contrived. "Now, let's have a scene where Worf kills somebody with a bat'leth. Yeah, that'll be neat!"
Notice how much more interesting Worf was when he got to DS9 and didn't fit in with anybody? He hated the Ferengi. Didn't think Odo was worth a shit. Didn't care much for the rest of them and only stuck around because he was going to be dealing with the Klingons. His development from that point was great.
-
They tried to give Worf some development on TNG with all the Klingon culture, visits to the Klingon homeworld, the deal with his father and brother and shame and honor and all that, and some of it was kinda cool. But it also felt like they were doing it because in TOS they got into the Vulcan stuff with Spock, so on TNG they had Worf and thus should similarly dig into the Klingon stuff.
-
They tried to give Worf some development on TNG with all the Klingon culture, visits to the Klingon homeworld, the deal with his father and brother and shame and honor and all that, and some of it was kinda cool. But it also felt like they were doing it because in TOS they got into the Vulcan stuff with Spock, so on TNG they had Worf and thus should similarly dig into the Klingon stuff.
Yeah, some of it was pretty interesting, but honestly it was interesting because he was such a pussy as far as real Klingons went. It was his human side that made him an interesting character, but that weakened the crew dynamic. What the show needed was for him to be a full-blown Klingon lunatic. I think he eventually got halfway to that point, but not in TNG.
Imagine if Worf had been that Klingon madman. A crewman that nobody thought should be in Starfleet, except Pickard who understood the usefulness of having such a guy around, and managed to keep him checked unless that volatility was required. Howabout Kern as head of security. That would have made for some good times.
-
They tried to give Worf some development on TNG with all the Klingon culture, visits to the Klingon homeworld, the deal with his father and brother and shame and honor and all that, and some of it was kinda cool. But it also felt like they were doing it because in TOS they got into the Vulcan stuff with Spock, so on TNG they had Worf and thus should similarly dig into the Klingon stuff.
Yeah, some of it was pretty interesting, but honestly it was interesting because he was such a pussy as far as real Klingons went. It was his human side that made him an interesting character, but that weakened the crew dynamic. What the show needed was for him to be a full-blown Klingon lunatic. I think he eventually got halfway to that point, but not in TNG.
Imagine if Worf had been that Klingon madman. A crewman that nobody thought should be in Starfleet, except Pickard who understood the usefulness of having such a guy around, and managed to keep him checked unless that volatility was required. Howabout Kern as head of security. That would have made for some good times.
It would have been boring after an episode and cliche. Sorry.
-
Whenever I think of Picard and Worf, this immediately comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61AAwNDwU4U
-
I don't understand the mindset of finding whatever the dynamic was for TOS and saying the other shows are worse for having a different dynamic. Seems random. If you like one more, fine, but to say the other shows should have had identical dynamics is just odd.
-
I don't think anyone's saying the dynamics should be identical, but there does seem to be a lot of support for the idea that TOS had conflict among the main cast (mostly the Big Three) and conflict can lead to more interesting viewing. Everything after that was really antiseptic and boring compared to TOS. In that one regard anyway.
-
Whenever I think of Picard and Worf, this immediately comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61AAwNDwU4U
"No sir I have not had a chance to meet all the crew members since I have been back." :lol
I don't understand the mindset of finding whatever the dynamic was for TOS and saying the other shows are worse for having a different dynamic. Seems random. If you like one more, fine, but to say the other shows should have had identical dynamics is just odd.
I'm merely pointing out that I personally didn't find much of the character development in the other series to be worth a damn. In an earlier thread, I tried to come up with my favorite and least favorite TNG characters, and decided that I liked Pickard and Data, and really didn't care one way or another about any of the rest of them. And I didn't really find Pickard to be particularly interesting; just likable. Not a very promising impression of a show.
If any member of the TNG crew died, or retired, or whatever, including Pickard, the show would have gone on and people really wouldn't have cared too much. Maybe two of them. You can't say that about K/S/M.
-
I guess you just don't like Star Trek much outside of a few things, fair enough.
By the way, are you puposefully mispelled picards name as a joke or do you not know that it's Picard and not Pickard?
-
Katherine Janeway FTW
-
I guess you just don't like Star Trek much outside of a few things, fair enough.
By the way, are you puposefully mispelled picards name as a joke or do you not know that it's Picard and not Pickard?
John Luke Pick'erd, FTW!
Unintentional. Just didn't bother to spellcheck.
And I actually enjoy watching all of the various incarnations. There are great episodes in every season of every series. It's just that the bad ones tend to be much worse when you don't give a shit about any of the characters. If they blew ever crew-member of Voyager out of an airlock, save the Dr., Tuvok (maybe) and 7/9, it probably would have been a better series. For every Year of Hell that you lost, you would be spared 3 Tuvix's.
-
There no doubt that the big three of TOS had great onscreen chemistry and is what makes the show work. I'm pretty sure I've read that the TNG crew were purposely written to not have significant character flaws or have interpersonal conflicts as part of Roddenberry's utopian vision (which obviously is pretty stupid, not to mention is pretty far removed from the original series).
I do think that sells some the others shows short though. DS9 weilds a large cast well because of paired relationships (Sisco-Kira, Sisco-Dax, Quark-Odo, Bashir-O'Brian, Bashir-Garak, etc.) The crew did tend to evolve toward liking everyone, but had things like Miles who couldn't stand Julian for most of the first two seasons. Not to mention regular character outside the crew who could stir stuff up. Though it's true you never saw characters who genuinely not like each other such as Worf and Quark interact much. Voyager did drop the ball in that regard but it dropped the ball on a lot of things.
-
Good Riker episodes:
The Pegasus
The Outcast
-
Best Riker episode:
Frame of Mind
-
I don't think anyone here is saying TNG was bad because it had bad characterization, I think the overall judgment of TNG is one of the greatest sci-fi shows to be on television but having a few flaws like poor characterization. TNG has one of the highest rewatchability ratios of any television show out there and for good reason. It's just an excellent fun time overall. Sure there were stinker episodes but they were rare in the series itself. A complaint I hear a lot are basically the way the characters interact with each other and when you compare to Deep Space Nine, TNG does fall flat on that regard. But TNG is far more rewatchable than DS9 is, however again, that doesn't mean DS9 is bad. I rather enjoyed DS9 myself but it flowed more like Babylon 5 or BSG did. It's an intense show with little levity.
-
Best Riker episode:
Frame of Mind
Watched that a lot. One I haven't seen more than once is the DS9 with Thomas Riker (his reappearance in other words). I watched it when it came on and thought it was excellent. There was some talk he could be a recurring character. I think they may have used him as inspiration for ST:Insurrection (the film).
Troi episodes? ISTR there were some good ones. Wasn't a big fan of Lwaxana although there was a great episode where she was the sub-plot and it contrasted well to the more serious main story.
-
Best Riker episode:
Frame of Mind
Watched that a lot. One I haven't seen more than once is the DS9 with Thomas Riker (his reappearance in other words). I watched it when it came on and thought it was excellent. There was some talk he could be a recurring character. I think they may have used him as inspiration for ST:Insurrection (the film).
Troi episodes? ISTR there were some good ones. Wasn't a big fan of Lwaxana although there was a great episode where she was the sub-plot and it contrasted well to the more serious main story.
There was one awesome awesome episode with Lwaxana in which there was also eleven-year-old Kirsten Dunst. Dark Page was the name I think.
-
Yeah, TNG did seem to be at the beginning of several young actors' and actresses' careers.
-
Thought this was amusing.
Running tally of people killed by Picard, Cisko and Worf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfphldP574g)
I still think Worf was a pussy for most of TNG, but he could definitely get all berserker on you from time to time.
-
Thought this was amusing.
Running tally of people killed by Picard, Cisko and Worf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfphldP574g)
I still think Worf was a pussy for most of TNG, but he could definitely get all berserker on you from time to time.
They counted holograms as kills?
Really?!?!
-
I was just clicking through the video, didn't they miss Picard killing the two Borg on the holodeck (in First Contact)?
rumborak
-
I was just clicking through the video, didn't they miss Picard killing the two Borg on the holodeck (in First Contact)?
rumborak
Nope it's in there.
I'm also a little torn on whether or not Riker telling Worf to fire and blowing up a ship really counts as a kill for Worf.
-
I was just clicking through the video, didn't they miss Picard killing the two Borg on the holodeck (in First Contact)?
rumborak
Nope it's in there.
I'm also a little torn on whether or not Riker telling Worf to fire and blowing up a ship really counts as a kill for Worf.
I'd call it a kill for Riker. Plus, Worf's body count would be in the 100k+ range given all the borg he's blown up.
As for holodeck kills, I'd consider the context. Worf's training holograms shouldn't count, but there are probably instances where others should.
It always amuses me what a kill-crazy lunatic Picard is in the movies. I'd also be quite interested in what Kirk's number would look like.
-
Instead of counting the number of people kirk killed, they should count the number of red shirts that kirk sent to their deaths.
-
Instead of counting the number of people kirk killed, they should count the number of red shirts that kirk sent to their deaths.
43, accounting for 73% of the fatalities over the 5 year mission.
Here's an interesting excerpt from the analysis:
Q: What factors could increase/decrease the survival rate of red-shirted crewmen?
Besides not getting involved in fights, which usually proved fatal, the crewmen could avoid beaming down to the planet's surface, which is inherent to their end. However, that could result in a court-martial for failure to obey orders.
Besides not beaming down, another factor that showed to increase the survival rate of the red-shirts was the nature of the relationship between the alien life and captain Kirk. When Captain Kirk meets an alien woman and "makes contact" the survival rate of the red-shirted crewmen increases by 84%. In fact, out of Captain Kirks' 24 "relationships" there were only three instances of red-shirt vaporization.
The caveat to this is when Captain Kirk not only meets the local alien women, but also starts a fight among alien locals. The combination of these events has led to the elimination of 4 crewmembers (3 red-shirts).
Here are the statistics:
Red Shirt Death episodes = 18
Episodes with fights = 55
Probability of a fight breaking out = 70%
Kirk "conquest" episodes = 24
Kirk "conquest" + fights = 16
Kirk "conquest" + red shirt casualty= 4
Red shirt death + fight + Kirk "conquest" = 3
And the data trends:
Probability of a red-shirt casualty= 53%
14% of fights ended in a fatality (with a 72% chance the fatality wore a red shirt)
Probability of a red-shirt "incident" when Kirk has a "conquest" = 12%
The red-shirt survival rate is slightly higher when Kirk meets women than when a fight breaks out. This trend necessitates the question: How often did Captain Kirk "meet" women? In 30% of the missions.
As the data shows, Captain Kirk "making contact" with alien women has an impact on the crew's survival. The red-shirt death rate is higher when a fight breaks out than when Kirk meets a woman and a fight breaks out. Yet the analysis shows that meeting Kirk meeting women only happens in 30% of the missions.
Conclusion: We can reliably improve the survivability of the red-shirted crewmen by only exploring peaceful, female-only planets (android and alien females included).
https://www.lyris.com/web-analytics/182-Analytics-According-to-Captain-Kirk
-
I love that someone has taken the time to compile all that information. Actually I'm sure many, many people have taken the time to compile that information.
-
Watching that kill count video has me wanting to watch DS:9 in its entirety again.
-
Watching that kill count video has me wanting to watch DS:9 in its entirety again.
Did that last year, but I skipped the first season since it's pretty horrible.
-
When I first got my DVR Spike started playing DS9 in the summer and My wife and I watched it from beginning to end. It's amazing how much you forget in such a short time.
-
Watching that kill count video has me wanting to watch DS:9 in its entirety again.
Did that last year, but I skipped the first season since it's pretty horrible.
They tried to stuff TNG into it too much, for one thing, but It has its share of moments. I tend to think the end of the first season is where the show really started to get some bearings of its own.
-
I got the DVD collection (only need TOS). I'll probably just jump in at season 6. Got to many other things going on.
-
I watched "In the Pale Moonlight" the other day. So good.
-
Love ST.... not as much as Star Wars....but close. Big TNG fan, didn't really care for DS9, Voyager would have been fine without listening to Janeways whiney voice.... :lol. TOS rocked!! Enterprise was OK. The movies drug on too much towards the end...UNTIL...this last one. HOLY SHIT did it kick ass!!!! :metal
-
Love ST.... not as much as Star Wars....but close. Big TNG fan, didn't really care for DS9, Voyager would have been fine without listening to Janeways whiney voice.... :lol. TOS rocked!! Enterprise was OK. The movies drug on too much towards the end...UNTIL...this last one. HOLY SHIT did it kick ass!!!! :metal
The bolded parts are correct.
-
The bolded parts are correct.
Well done Senor :tup
-
...didn't really care for DS9...
??? ??? ??? Does not compute.
-
...didn't really care for DS9...
??? ??? ??? Does not compute.
Some charachters and story themes I just disliked. Towards the end when there were the big battle sequences with the Dominion, it got kinda cool.
-
I discovered this 2 days ago, it's a full interview with Rick Berman, and he talks about TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. Really cool, and lots of interesting information (including that Patrick Stewart auditioned for the role with a wig, because Roddenberry didn't want to have a bald captain :lol )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9HcSB9WDTQ
rumborak
-
Wouldn't be the first time.
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/drama/images/claudius11_gall.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6xoH967aC00/SqJwhKpgkmI/AAAAAAAAULQ/ErcfzzmwK6Y/s400/hamlet80-1-2a-1.jpg)
-
It's like a whole different person!
-
It's like a whole different person!
Little known fact, those aren't wigs. Picard just looked at his hair and said "Engage!"
-
Man, especially with hair Stewart is one good-looking mofo.
rumborak
-
Yeah, it's funny. After going bald as a teenager he thought he'd never get laid again. I suspect that's not a problem for him nowadays.
-
Are those from televised Shakespeare productions he did?
-
The movies drug on too much towards the end... UNTIL...this last one. HOLY SHIT did it kick ass!!!! :metal
I assume you're speaking of JJ Abrams' reboot of Star Trek. In that case...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
-
The movies drug on too much towards the end... UNTIL...this last one. HOLY SHIT did it kick ass!!!! :metal
I assume you're speaking of JJ Abrams' reboot of Star Trek. In that case...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Wrong.
Anyway, I had a thought while watching The Search for Spock last night. If Spock transferred his katra to Bones, why wasn't he just an "empty shell" instead of giving Kirk the emotional "I have been, and always shall be, your friend" speech?
-
***Star Trek XI spoilers ahead***
I thought the new ST was terrible. Even ignoring the "throwing everything after TOS out of the window," the movie itself was just lots of CG eye-candy with plot holes the size of Jupiter. Not to mention that by destroying Vulcan, they pretty much killed the entire premise and concept behind Spock's character. There was so much nonsense in this movie my head hurts.
EDIT: Also, the ENTIRE foundation of the plot is more ridiculous than all the technobabble in all the series combined. Yeah, stopping a supernova by destroing the sun with a black hole - great, because who needs sunlight to sustain life? Romulus would have been destroyed anyway, which totally undermines the motivation for the villains actions. Suspension of disbelief is awesome, but there comes a point when it just becomes insulting to one's intelligence.
-
***Star Trek XI spoilers ahead***
I thought the new ST was terrible. Even ignoring the "throwing everything after TOS out of the window," the movie itself was just lots of CG eye-candy with plot holes the size of Jupiter. Not to mention that by destroying Vulcan, they pretty much killed the entire premise and concept behind Spock's character. There was so much nonsense in this movie my head hurts.
EDIT: Also, the ENTIRE foundation of the plot is more ridiculous than all the technobabble in all the series combined. Yeah, stopping a supernova by destroing the sun with a black hole - great, because who needs sunlight to sustain life? Romulus would have been destroyed anyway, which totally undermines the motivation for the villains actions. Suspension of disbelief is awesome, but there comes a point when it just becomes insulting to one's intelligence.
Like flying around the sun to travel back and forth through time?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow_Is_Yesterday
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyage_Home
If I can watch those and disregard the baloney, I can watch ST XI.
-
Sure, no one says you can't. :) However, the examples you give are also from 1967 and 1986, not 2009. They are also something more than Barbies and Kens in an Apple store. They also make sense IN CONTEXT of the TREK UNIVERSE. ST XI doesn't even make sense in the context of its own world - eg Scotty inventing a way to beam to enterprise which was not just lightyears away, but also travelling at warp speed. If they can do that, why do they even bother with starships in the first place?
Besides, I'm not even a giant TOS fan, I'm much more of a DS9/TNG guy.
-
Not to mention that by destroying Vulcan, they pretty much killed the entire premise and concept behind Spock's character.
What do you mean?
-
5, it's Sci-Fi dammit!! Suspend your disbelief! Also in 2009 we haven't conquered black holes yet either silly.
-
Not to mention that by destroying Vulcan, they pretty much killed the entire premise and concept behind Spock's character.
What do you mean?
The concept behind Spock was that he was a human-Vulcan hybrid, an outsider - fully accepted by neither humans nor Vulcans. By destroying Vulcan and thus making the entire species nearly extinct, hybrids suddenly became an extremely viable option for repopulating the species - therefore eliminating the "outsider" part of Spock.
5, it's Sci-Fi dammit!! Suspend your disbelief! Also in 2009 we haven't conquered black holes yet either silly.
I know, and I gladly do it whenever a movie/book/game makes INTERNAL sense. STXI doesn't.
-
Um, he's not the outcast on earth as he was in Vulcan. If you remember it was the Vulcan's who thought that. Besides the series needed something new and fresh because TV ratings and Movie sales were down and this change in the ST timeline was needed to bring in some new fans. It did without pissing off the hardcore fanbase. You are in the minority here 5.
-
Um, he's not the outcast on earth as he was in Vulcan. If you remember it was the Vulcan's who thought that.
A character who tries to maintain his logical and 'cool' nature among emotional humans strikes me as being an outsider, at least to a certain degree. And if even he didn't, this doesn't really change anything, does it? With his home planet destroyed, he can't be an outcast among his own kind anymore - and even ST XI established this as the basis for the character.
Besides the series needed something new and fresh because TV ratings and Movie sales were down and this change in the ST timeline was needed to bring in some new fans.
And it shows, it really shows that this was to "bring in some new fans" because to me, ST XI was just hollow and mindless - unlike the older ST, unlike even the TNG movies in which Picard suddenly became an action man. Like I said, the new star trek is aesthetically pleasing, action packed and fast paced - but still, compared to the old ST it's hollow, soulless and full of plastic characters parading on the iBridge.
It did without pissing off the hardcore fanbase. You are in the minority here 5.
Oh, the hardcore fanbase is pissed, all right. And I don't mind being in the minority, to be honest :)
-
Are those from televised Shakespeare productions he did?
In the bottom one he's Claudius in the BBC's Hamlet (Derick Jacobi :tup). I'm not sure, but I think the top one is from I, Claudius; never watched it.
Anyway, I had a thought while watching The Search for Spock last night. If Spock transferred his katra to Bones, why wasn't he just an "empty shell" instead of giving Kirk the emotional "I have been, and always shall be, your friend" speech?
From the context of it being a mind meld, I gather it was more akin to running off a copy of his katra, rather than handing the whole thing over. Truth be told, I don't think they had given that any thought at all when they offed Spock. They weren't planning on bringing him back. I suspect that they added the whole "remember" thing as an escape route should they change their mind, which they did, and then they just bullshitted the whole Katra thing.
Besides the series needed something new and fresh because TV ratings and Movie sales were down and this change in the ST timeline was needed to bring in some new fans. It did without pissing off the hardcore fanbase. You are in the minority here 5.
Yes and no. I understand creating a new timeline. As much as I don't like it, I think it was actually a pretty clever idea. It gives them a whole new tableau to work with. There aren't many franchises where that idea would work well, but given the strict adherence to canon over the years, and the necessity to stay within the basic framework of the characters, it was probably the right move.
That said, the movie sucked balls. The story was just thrown together as an excuse for a lot of in-jokes, references and CGI explosions. I tried re-watching it a while back and couldn't make it halfway through. The new actors were great--loved them. Just thought it was a crappy film. I actually do have hopes for the sequel. Now that they've established the new foundation, maybe they'll make some good flicks out of it. I certainly hope so.
Something to ponder. In every one of the series, there are plenty of really good episodes where nobody dies and nothing gets blown up. Star Trek cranked out countless great, character driven episodes. Does anybody think they could make a character driven movie nowadays? I don't think they could or would even try. Audiences today want gee-whiz CGI, and if they tried to do another ST-IV or ST-TMP, it'd be the death of the franchise. Now that's a real shame.
-
I agree with pretty much everything said above. With the possible exception of the actors - with the exception of Simon Pegg and Quinto, I didn't really care for them. And Uhura was just annoying.
-
I think I have my righhtful place in 'ere, seeing as I'm the only omnipotent being in this here universe
-
<3
-
Well El Barto, I remember people complaining that Star Trek: Insurrection was made too much like a TV series show. I think movies are a different beast. Unlike TV that has the ability to have a story line arch over a season a movie has only 2 hours so action is a necessity of sorts. And like you said, the first movie in the new regime is always a set up of character. Remember the Superman Movie from the 70's and how much better the second movie was? The movie had a very good reception from the core fans. Maybe they were just starved for new Star Trek.
-
"Annihilation Jim. Total, complete, absolute annihilation." :omg:
-
I don't think you can speculate on how the story will be affected by the new time line. Who knows what they can and will do with it. Can we speculate on if Roddenberry would have been proud? lol
-
Wait a minute, the second Superman movie was better than the first? Really?
There have been plenty of character driven movies, and several in the ST universe. Constant explosions has only recently become a requirement for any movie.
-
5, it's Sci-Fi dammit!! Suspend your disbelief! Also in 2009 we haven't conquered black holes yet either silly.
He does have a point though that sucking up a sun with a black hole would extinguish life on Romulus and Remus anyways, so the most it would do would be to bide time to evacuate everyone. Still, its not much of a "save Romulus" plan.
And I agree with the general sentiments Barto and 5 have expressed. Its clever that they made a new timeline starting with when Nero shows up, and it makes sense to change everything after that. BUT, it kind of reeks of laziness. An easy way to ignore the strictly adherred-to canon that Star Trek writers have been working with for years. Plus, the actual movie wasn't great, though most of the actors did a good job not completely copying the original characters. I'm interested in seeing a sequel to see if it'll be more-of-the-same or something as great as Wrath of Khan or Voyage Home (though I don't think a movie like TVH would work well in today's market, especially when Star Trek has been rebranded as an action franchise now).
-
I would just like to say I think Chris Pine does an amazing Kirk. And I thought the movie was awesome, enough from you negative nancies.
-
If they wanted to make a super-actiony Star Trek movie that still had great, prominent character development they should have made a Deep Space Nine movie. God I can't wait for it to be available for instant stream on Netflix.
-
I would just like to say I think Chris Pine does an amazing Kirk. And I thought the movie was awesome, enough from you negative nancies.
This. I thought it was a great movie.
rumborak
-
If they wanted to make a super-actiony Star Trek movie that still had great, prominent character development they should have made a Deep Space Nine movie. God I can't wait for it to be available for instant stream on Netflix.
Yes yes yes, the Dominion War would have been amazing material for a good action movie.
-
I think so. I love dialogue and storylines but the first Superman movie was drawn out. There's always a good balance to action and dialogue. Looking at the box office sales for all Star Trek movies on can't deny how well this reboot movie did. The best sales for all other movies was the 4th movie at 109 million and the new one did 257 mil statewide. Hard to dispute those numbers as well as the 94% critics approval rating. But to each his own.
And Matt, DS9 movie would have been killer.
-
The Phantom Menace absolutely slaughtered the original Star Wars at the box office, so ticket sales don't really mean much in relation to quality or popularity.
Also, I understand that people nowadays care more about explosions than characters or stories. I'm not debating that. I just think it sucks.
-
Oh I get you El Barto. No Doubt. I just think that the new Star Trek was light years(Pun intended) ahead of lets say The Transformer movies. On of my favorite movies of all time is L.A. Confidential. I think that it has a perfect blend of ,dialogue drama, action and the acting is second to none.
-
I don't think in this case it was a bad thing though, because in addition to that we got the return of our favorite grown-up Peter Pan, we got to see the cheated Kobayashi Maru in action, and in my opinion it was really great to see the formation of the crew chemistry we've become so used to in TOS. It wasn't perfect, but it was enough that I'm really looking forward to the sequel.
-
As a long time Star Trek fan I have to agree that Abrams' Trek is pretty bad. Not from a fanboy/continuity standpoint, I think they did they best they could of done with the alternate timeline thing (actually clever in a "have your cake and eat it too" way). And I was a skeptic about recasting the original crew but the cast totally proved me wrong, really fun stuff.
But yes the writing is inexcusably stupid. Huge plot holes and lazy conveniences all over the place. And I'm not one that actively tries to look for them but ugh. :facepalm:
-
I enjoyed the new ST film. It was better than some of the previous films.
But I also caught Wrath of Khan on TV the other night. I saw it in theaters when I was a kid. It is still the most awesome of all ST films.
-
Wow lots of new posts since I last read.
My thoughts on the latest Star Trek movie.
1. There were plot holes, the biggest being the destruction of Romulas, since it didn't have any effect on that stupid moon that Kirk, Spock and Scotty were on for some reason.
2. The star (not sun) that they tried to destroy with a black hole was not actually Romulas's star, but a huge distant one, so getting rid of it wouldn't have destroyed Romulas.
3. The writing wasn't great, but not awful. Plenty of lame scenes, like the entire moon sequence, Scottys engineering dabacle and such. But for the most part it was good enough.
4. Hey 5, did you seriously just say that Sylar was one of the better actors on that movie? Good god. His Spock was the worst part. Sure he looked like him a great deal, but he didn't capture his character at all. He spoke SUPER fast, with tons of emotional at all times. Never seemed wise, never seemed deliberate, never seemed calculating like the original Spock. Chris Pine was a good Kirk, though re-written for a reason. Uhura was indeed annoying. Simon Pegg was miscast as Scotty, but he was fun to watch. The best part of that movie acting wise was Carl Urban as Bones. He freaking NAILED that part to a cross.
5. I think they need to bring in another writer to help the other 2 (or 3) for the next movie. Lets not forget that Star Trek XI was written by the same people who wrote Transformers 2.
-
I don't share the misgivings about either Scotty or Spock. I thought they did a great bridging between the seasoned characters everybody knew, and the fact that they had all just gotten out of Academy. I actually liked that Spock wasn't the totally reserved guy yet that we know him as later, but has some spunk left.
The only thing that actually bugged me as a plot hole was the fact that, even if you collapse something into a black hole, the mass is still the same. So, the gravitational pull stays the same.
rumborak
-
5. I think they need to bring in another writer to help the other 2 (or 3) for the next movie. Lets not forget that Star Trek XI was written by the same people who wrote Transformers 2.
This sums up my problem with the movie pretty well.
Well, that and a whole bunch of other things.
It made money by getting a lot of non-Trekkies to see it, and therein succeeded in doing what they cared about - making money off the movie, as apposed to making a Star Trek movie.
-
I don't share the misgivings about either Scotty or Spock. I thought they did a great bridging between the seasoned characters everybody knew, and the fact that they had all just gotten out of Academy. I actually liked that Spock wasn't the totally reserved guy yet that we know him as later, but has some spunk left.
rumborak
I just think Sylar completely missed the essence of Spock, even as it was written in the script. That he has all of these emotions that he is actively trying to repress. In the original, he did a great job of that. In this...........there was no repression, he was obviously uber emotional at all times, the repression just seemed fake.
And I'm fine with Scotty, I just think Pegg was cast because he was already a huge star and a huge Star Trek fan. I think Paul McGillion would have been a better choice.
-
I don't know. To be honest, watching Pegg I was thinking "this is the character that Doohan was trying to be but couldn't". I always thought the original Scotty was a really clumsy character, and Pegg made him much more coherent and believable.
rumborak
-
I just think the only thing linking him to the original scotty was the accent and name. If that named him Irishy, and had Pegg to an Irish accent, no one would have noticed.
-
I do however agree that Bones was dead on.
rumborak
-
I do however agree that Bones was dead on.
rumborak
Oh I totally agree. I just think the film could have benefited from slowing down just a little bit. Instead of having a thousand things happening at once, it needed some time to breath, to allow some reflection and to allow some characters reactions to seem genuine instead of randomly placed.
-
The original Scotty was an interesting character as Doohan played him. Obviously, he was mainly interested in tinkering and building/repairing stuff, but if pressed into service, he was an awesome command officer. Any time he was in the big chair, he was cold as ice, yet still deliberate and thoughtful. The new Scotty seemed to be more about comic relief, and that's unfortunate.
-
The original Scotty was an interesting character as Doohan played him. Obviously, he was mainly interested in tinkering and building/repairing stuff, but if pressed into service, he was an awesome command officer. Any time he was in the big chair, he was cold as ice, yet still deliberate and thoughtful. The new Scotty seemed to be more about comic relief, and that's unfortunate.
Yes! Kirk never hesitated to put Scotty in the big chair, and he always handled things well. I recall Kirk commending him in the episode when they beam down to the planet that fashioned itself after 1920’s gangsters. Don’t recall the circumstances though.
I saw the newest ST movie in the theater on only a few hours sleep. It was enjoyable, but the more I thought about it later, the less sense it made and the less I liked it. Been meaning to revisit, but not sure I care anymore.
[From the context of it being a mind meld, I gather it was more akin to running off a copy of his katra, rather than handing the whole thing over. Truth be told, I don't think they had given that any thought at all when they offed Spock. They weren't planning on bringing him back. I suspect that they added the whole "remember" thing as an escape route should they change their mind, which they did, and then they just bullshitted the whole Katra thing.
Right. Recall Spock still had all his faculties to do whatever he did with the reactor, or whatever, to get the warp drive working. On the DVD Harve Bennett brought up the idea of the ‘remember’ with Nimoy late in the game, once he saw how well things were going and how much fun everyone was having. He was a creative guy, but as producer, he has to think along a different set of guidelines, and the potential for a sequel and more revenue was more on his mind than Meyer and the rest. Meyer had no intention of bringing him back. He didn’t even want to film the scene on Genesis where they show the torpedo tube.
-
Oh and one more thing that bothered me. Engineering.
I get it, it's a different timeline, but why in god's name would the design of that place be SOOOOOOOOOO drastically different. What was wrong with the original? Seemed fine to me. And how in gods name does an engineering the size of a warehouse fit into that ship? The ship isn't THAT big, it would take up damn near half of the bottom section. Also, it didn't feel at all like engineering, it felt like a beer processing plant, because that's what it was. I just didn't see the point in that thing at all.
-
Oh and one more thing that bothered me. Engineering.
I get it, it's a different timeline, but why in god's name would the design of that place be SOOOOOOOOOO drastically different. What was wrong with the original? Seemed fine to me. And how in gods name does an engineering the size of a warehouse fit into that ship? The ship isn't THAT big, it would take up damn near half of the bottom section. Also, it didn't feel at all like engineering, it felt like a beer processing plant, because that's what it was. I just didn't see the point in that thing at all.
I think they were trying to give engineering a realistic feel. I know this is a bit of a joke but I don't think any ship has had such a clean engine room as in the Star Trek Universe.
-
I don't think in this case it was a bad thing though, because in addition to that we got the return of our favorite grown-up Peter Pan, we got to see the cheated Kobayashi Maru in action, and in my opinion it was really great to see the formation of the crew chemistry we've become so used to in TOS. It wasn't perfect, but it was enough that I'm really looking forward to the sequel.
The thing is, while it was cool to see the Kobayashi Maru in action, the point of Kirk beating it in the original movies was that no one KNEW he cheated. Beating that test was one of the things that put him on the fast track to becoming a legend within Starfleet, in the movie its everyone knew he cheated, and Kirk basically admits to cheating, but nothing really happens because of it. That moment in WoK where he finally admits he cheated, and it actually looks like he's in a no-win scenario for the first time is a pretty powerful moment, and there wasn't anything like that in Star Trek XI to give the Kobayashi Maru cheating scandal any real significance outside that early point about "experiencing fear" which is forgotten about pretty quickly. Also, making Spock the designer of the test just seemed sort of contrived, like a "let's see how many nuggets we can fit in!" kind of attitude.
-
Though you've got to remember, this movie was now a different timeline. Everything was altered by the Romulans. Thus this Kirk told people.It was to me a very smart way of changing the characters the way they want with a definition.
-
No, it was a lame way to take the Trek universe fans know and love and bastardize it to fit their own silly vision :p
-
No, it was a lame way to take the Trek universe fans know and love and bastardize it to fit their own silly vision :p
:lol It didn't bother me like some. In the immortal words of William Shatner, "Get a life!" :lol
-
The original Scotty was an interesting character as Doohan played him. Obviously, he was mainly interested in tinkering and building/repairing stuff, but if pressed into service, he was an awesome command officer. Any time he was in the big chair, he was cold as ice, yet still deliberate and thoughtful. The new Scotty seemed to be more about comic relief, and that's unfortunate.
Keep in mind there's about ten years between STXI and TOS. That's a lot of time for a character to evolve.
-
The only thing that actually bugged me as a plot hole was the fact that, even if you collapse something into a black hole, the mass is still the same. So, the gravitational pull stays the same.
I was thinking about this at work today. I don't think they made the planet into a black hole; they made a black hole at the center of the planet. There are endless possibilities since we don't know anything about the properties of the red matter.
-
(https://jonbalza.com/tutorials/chromesphere/step2.jpg)This thread needs (https://jonbalza.com/tutorials/chromesphere/step2.jpg)more lens flares(https://jonbalza.com/tutorials/chromesphere/step2.jpg)
-
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--x4Luc0KSYY/TVlt9taehuI/AAAAAAAABp8/HPvjT7LTH1Y/s1600/how-many-lights-do-you-see.jpg)
-
The only thing that actually bugged me as a plot hole was the fact that, even if you collapse something into a black hole, the mass is still the same. So, the gravitational pull stays the same.
I was thinking about this at work today. I don't think they made the planet into a black hole; they made a black hole at the center of the planet. There are endless possibilities since we don't know anything about the properties of the red matter.
And yeah, my impression has always been that they made a black hole in the center of the planet.
-
I bought a Spock Cookie Jar yesterday.
(https://craziestgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/spock_cookie_jar.jpg)
-
That is highly illogical ScioPath. :lol
-
Now a cool one would have been Spock with the headband thingie from Spock's Brain, so you'd remove his skullcap to get at the cookies.
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Of_Gods_and_Men
Has anybody ever watched this?
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Of_Gods_and_Men
Has anybody ever watched this?
No, but I would love to see it. What a great-sounding thing.
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Of_Gods_and_Men
Has anybody ever watched this?
Nope. I have watched 2 or 3 of the New Voyages and didn't care for them. Looking at the cast of this, I assume it's pretty similar. The problem with NV is that they were constantly trying to force in as many references to the original series as possible*, and many of them were cheesy. The fact that Charlie Evans is included in this doesn't strike me as encouraging.
*The continuation of Captain Decker's story after the Planet Killer was pretty amusing, though.
-
The continuation of Captain Decker's story after the Planet Killer was pretty amusing, though.
Sounds interesting. Do tell?
-
The continuation of Captain Decker's story after the Planet Killer was pretty amusing, though.
Sounds interesting. Do tell?
Via some nonsensical event he woke up in the 20th century after entering the planet killer. He goes to Earth, gets married and settles down. The Enterprise uses the guardian of forever to go back in time and finds a signal from his shuttlecraft. Kirk, Spock and McCoy show up at a pre-fab house in suburbia, meet his wife and watch a video he'd left for them (he had died 6 months earlier). The amusing bit is that when they're getting ready to leave, she tells them there is one other thing they might be interested in. She takes them out to the garage and opens the door to reveal Decker's shuttlecraft parked next to piles of clutter.
Honestly, the show's really pretty bad. I like that they're trying to do it, and on some levels they did a fine job. They're using a perfect recreation of the original bridge set (Paramount actually used their set for the TNG episode where Scotty returns). They're creating top of the line CGI for it. The actors they've got are convincing as K, S and McC (though not very good at actually acting). The two main problems are that it still looks like it was shot by the drama department at a community college somewhere in Nebraska, and they rely too heavily on trying to incorporate cameos from TOS characters. Every episode seems to involve some mishap that allows for an 80 year old Sulu to appear, except that it's usually much lower tier characters. Mr. Leslie is a captain. Lt. Kyle is an admiral. Etc.
-
So all the shows except DS9 are on Netflix right now. So I've been watching some great TNG episodes, starting with Q Who and Deja Q, inspired by recent visits by the Omnipotent being himself. What a great show. I'm going to watch Qpid next just for the line "Captain! I must protest! I am NOT a Merry Man!"
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Of_Gods_and_Men
Has anybody ever watched this?
No, but I would love to see it. What a great-sounding thing.
I just watched about 12 or so minutes of it.
Good god it was horrible. Just awful. The story may have been good, but jesus christ. The acting, the directing, the writing...........everything was abysmal.
-
Mr. Worf, do you know Gilbert and Sullivan?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61AAwNDwU4U
:laugh:
-
The new Star Trek film was great, haters.
-
The new Star Trek film was great, haters.
I agree 100%. It was Fantastic. :biggrin:
Kicked Nemesis so hard in the balls. I was shocked when I found out the forger in Inception also played Shinzon. ( Tom Hardy )
Did. Not. Recgonise, In. The. Slightest. :o
-
The new Star Trek film was great, haters.
I agree 100%. It was Fantastic. :biggrin:
Kicked Nemesis so hard in the balls. I was shocked when I found out the forger in Inception also played Shinzon. ( Tom Hardy )
Did. Not. Recgonise, In. The. Slightest. :o
He definitely became a better actor too.
-
Oh, by miles and miles. Although it's been a while since I've seen Nemesis (release, probably) so I can't remember if the cast was shit (the regulars aside) or if it was just the script.
I do love one part though: "Romulan ale should be illegal..."
"It is illegal, Worf."
-
I did not know that, wow.
-
Oh, by miles and miles. Although it's been a while since I've seen Nemesis (release, probably) so I can't remember if the cast was shit (the regulars aside) or if it was just the script.
I do love one part though: "Romulan ale should be illegal..."
"It is illegal, Worf."
Say what you will about Nemesis, but Data dying was intensely sad. Brent Spiner and the rest of the cast handled it perfectly.
-
I do love one part though: "Romulan ale should be illegal..."
"It is illegal, Worf."
FYI, it is also not recommended for diplomatic functions.
-
Oh god, I just found out I share a birthday with a famous star ship captain... Janeway.
On one hand, it's poetic because I grew up watching Voyager. On the other hand, she was everything you don't want in an officer.
-
So, Shatner's pretty busy . . . he's got a documentary out where he interviews all of the Star Trek captains and also a new novel (which I will definitely read) where a retired Kirk tries to solve the the mystery of Spock's murder.
-
So, Shatner's pretty busy . . . he's got a documentary out where he interviews all of the Star Trek captains and also a new novel (which I will definitely read) where a retired Kirk tries to solve the the mystery of Spock's murder.
I'd like to seem him interview all the different captains, I'd also probably read the book.
-
Ranking my favorite regular characters, regardless of writing/direction/etc:
Spock
Kirk
Picard
Data
McCoy
Worf
Ro
Riker
Scotty
Holograph Doctor
O'Brien
I'm a weird Trekkie, I know everything there possibly is to know about TOS and TNG (including novels, behind-the-scenes stuff, geeky stuff, etc), but almost nothing about the rest . . . I did watch many episodes of DS9 when it first aired.
-
Oh, by miles and miles. Although it's been a while since I've seen Nemesis (release, probably) so I can't remember if the cast was shit (the regulars aside) or if it was just the script.
I do love one part though: "Romulan ale should be illegal..."
"It is illegal, Worf."
Say what you will about Nemesis, but Data dying was intensely sad. Brent Spiner and the rest of the cast handled it perfectly.
And that.
-
Oh, by miles and miles. Although it's been a while since I've seen Nemesis (release, probably) so I can't remember if the cast was shit (the regulars aside) or if it was just the script.
I do love one part though: "Romulan ale should be illegal..."
"It is illegal, Worf."
Say what you will about Nemesis, but Data dying was intensely sad. Brent Spiner and the rest of the cast handled it perfectly.
Say what you want about Nemesis - the amount of nods to The Wrath of Khan was ridiculous.
1.Genetically Engineered Villain
2.Massive weapon ( Genesis device, Shinzons weapon )
3.References to Romulan Ale being illegal in both movies
4.Final battle in a Nebula
5.Death of crew member
6.Data downloading his memory into B4. Spock transferring his mind to McCoy.
Any others i've forgotten ?
-
And pulled off not nearly as well.
-
Well no but it's so blatant they were trying to remake TWOK.
Star Trek 2009 did it so much better. That film gives TWOK a serious run for it's money in the best Trek movie ( in my book ).
I am so glad they are taking their time on the sequel and making sure that everything is ready before they start, not rushing out
a sequel for the sake of it. As long as it's as good as ST2009 I can wait as long as it takes. We waited 7 years for the last one and it was
amazing. :)
-
Well no but it's so blatant they were trying to remake TWOK.
Star Trek 2009 did it so much better. That film gives TWOK a serious run for it's money in the best Trek movie ( in my book ).
I am so glad they are taking their time on the sequel and making sure that everything is ready before they start, not rushing out
a sequel for the sake of it. As long as it's as good as ST2009 I can wait as long as it takes. We waited 7 years for the last one and it was
amazing. :)
The new movie was really fun and pretty good. But it had A LOT of problems. Way too many to even think about qualifying it for best.
-
I still wish I understood why so many people like the new Star Trek. I thought it was painfully bad.
-
I still wish I understood why so many people like the new Star Trek. I thought it was painfully bad.
It wasn't painfully bad.
It had mostly good performances (few I didn't care for), great visuals, amazing opening sequence, believable villain (for the most part anyway), a decent script dialogue wise, a sexy green chick and ...........well............it was well directed? I dunno. It's harder to defend than I thought it would be.
-
People talk about the new film as if the original source material is Shakespeare.
-
People talk about the new film as if the original source material is Shakespeare.
For all of Star Trek's many flaws, it could be legitimately brilliant at times. When people think of Captain Kirk, they usually remember the sleeping with alien women and hammy attitude, not the commanding officer who won a submarine battle in space against a Romulan warship and honorably offered mercy to his opponents.
It had mostly good performances (few I didn't care for), great visuals, amazing opening sequence, believable villain (for the most part anyway), a decent script dialogue wise, a sexy green chick and ...........well............it was well directed? I dunno. It's harder to defend than I thought it would be.
- I thought Chris Pine's Kirk got the character completely wrong. He took Shatner's cocksureness and turned it into pure unlikable cockiness. He took an interest in women and turned it into being a college aged horndog. And he did this without any of the gravitas of Shatner. If you're anywhere and Shatner walks into the room, he'll own it if he wants to. He brought that quality to Kirk in a huge way. Pine has none it. Simon Pegg took away all of Scottie's dignity and emphasized the jokiness. John Cho made Sulu into Harold. I don't even know how to articulate in words how they messed Spock up. Uhura was good but basically a different character. At least they got McCoy and Chekov right.
- For what they were, they were very well executed. But why did the phasers look like blasters from Star Wars? Why did the engine room look like a brewery? Why did the federation transport ships to the academy remind me of the drop ships from Starship Troopers? So much generic and cheesy design work in that movie.
- The opening sequence was bad bad bad. It wanted you to feel so much and did so little to earn it.
- I guess Nero was believable. Good? Eh. Bald creepy guy with tattoos. Why should I care?
- I've repressed all memories of the movie's dialog because I don't want it to haunt my nightmares.
- The green chick wasn't even that sexy.
- The directing was well executed, and given the script and what the studio wanted to accomplish I'd say JJ Abrams did what he was supposed to do. But are you really gonna call it good?
-
I'd call the directing good, not brilliant but good. The writing........eh.
And as far as Kirk goes, I thought he did ok. You have to remember that Pine Kirk grew up without a father, which completely changed the essence of the character. I do agree though that Syler did an awful............awful spock. People seem to love his Spock because I guess he looked a great deal like him, which he did, but he was pretty much just Sylar with pointy ears. I also agree with Scotty, it seems they just wanted a big sci-fi comedy name like Pegg, but he was hardly Scotty at all.
The opening sequence was good, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
The ship designs were fine, I don't care if a transport ship isn't the most innovative design ever, it's a transport ship.
Nero was more believable if you had read the comic prequel, which helped flesh his character out (and Spock's reaction to him).
I'd bang the green chick.
-
I'd bang her.
-
For all of Star Trek's many flaws, it could be legitimately brilliant at times. When people think of Captain Kirk, they usually remember the sleeping with alien women and hammy attitude, not the commanding officer who won a submarine battle in space against a Romulan warship and honorably offered mercy to his opponents.
- I thought Chris Pine's Kirk got the character completely wrong. He took Shatner's cocksureness and turned it into pure unlikable cockiness. He took an interest in women and turned it into being a college aged horndog. And he did this without any of the gravitas of Shatner. If you're anywhere and Shatner walks into the room, he'll own it if he wants to. He brought that quality to Kirk in a huge way. Pine has none it.
This is an excellent assessment of both Kirks. Way to go. :tup
Adami makes an interesting point about him. The problem is that we have no idea what role George Kirk played to the Shatner Kirk. Shatner's might have been fatherless, as well. All we know are that there are potential differences in the two because of the different timelines. What seems important to me is that Pine's Kirk is a few years younger than Shatner's. I can't for the life of me imagine Shatner's Kirk every being the Jackass that Pine's is. However, I can definitely see Pine's becoming the genuine badass that Reap describes.
Sadly, don't think that theory will save Quinto's Spock. We actually got our fair share of emotional and occasionally violent Spock in TOS, and he was just a completely different thing altogether from Quinto's. That said, I'll be interested in seeing how he works with the next movie, where presumably they'll both be a bit older. They should be working the K/S/M dynamic at that point, and Quinto might blend in better.
Mostly agree with Reap about the other points. Horrible intro. Scotty and Sulu were caricaturized. Would fuck the green bitch, but I wouldn't have gone very far out of my way for it. Didn't like Nero, or the entire story for that matter.
-
Just a small point but Shatners kirk wasn't fatherless. Old Spock (in the new movie) pointed out that Kirks father was very influential on him and was one of the main reasons he joined starfleet. However Pine never had that guiding beacon of morality, because his father flew the ship into the romulan/borg thing and ended up Odins son.
-
Fair enough. I was trying to think of any TOS reference. I found the story of the new movie so tiresome that I wouldn't remember if Old Spock told him they used to be lovers.
-
Fair enough. I was trying to think of any TOS reference. I found the story of the new movie so tiresome that I wouldn't remember if Old Spock told him they used to be lovers.
..............he did. Of course he was referring to himself and Scotty. What do you think was about to "blow" all those times?
Yea.
-
There were things I liked about the new Trek movie, and things I hated. The plot was stupid, and most of the characters were wasted entirely. But I think the casting was pretty good, and the style was good. When I came out of the cinema after seeing it, I was disappointed, yet still excited for the next one, if that makes sense.
-
and ended up Odins son.
:lol
-
I think it was very good. The basis for my opinion is the comparison to the last 5 movies in the series. This was WAY better than those....hence, the props.
-
I think it was very good. The basis for my opinion is the comparison to the last 5 movies in the series. This was WAY better than those....hence, the props.
First Contact was way better.
And while Insurrection was boring as all hell, at least it made internal sense.
-
I think it was very good. The basis for my opinion is the comparison to the last 5 movies in the series. This was WAY better than those....hence, the props.
First Contact was way better.
And while Insurrection was boring as all hell, at least it made internal sense.
I liked the Borg part of first contact, but the Cochrane part bored the piss out of me.
-
I think it was very good. The basis for my opinion is the comparison to the last 5 movies in the series. This was WAY better than those....hence, the props.
First Contact was way better.
And while Insurrection was boring as all hell, at least it made internal sense.
I liked the Borg part of first contact, but the Cochrane part bored the piss out of me.
Ohhh so you prefer just straight action non stop stuff. Gotcha.
-
First Contact was awesome. I watched Insurrection only yesterday, and I still like it. It's not great, but it's good. I enjoy parts of Generations, but that's a bad movie. And Nemesis is bad. Not that much competition aside from First Contact.
-
I think one of the problems with Trek XI is that it at no point takes its time to do anything. The older sci fi movies usually took their time to develop, while the new ones are just throwing everything at you as quickly as possible so that you don't at any point have a minute to reflect on what just happened.
Dear Movies............take your time, it's ok.
-
The best example of that is the pointless beast chase when Kirk lands on that icy moon/planet. It was action for the sake of action, and perhaps to quicken the contrivance of Kirk meeting Old Spock.
-
Ohhh so you prefer just straight action non stop stuff. Gotcha.
Not at all.... Just thought those segments were stiff, poorly written, and quite boring... :lol I'm a TNG guy 100%...but I think the TNG movies really sucked compared to ST I - IV and The New one.
-
The best example of that is the pointless beast chase when Kirk lands on that icy moon/planet. It was action for the sake of action, and perhaps to quicken the contrivance of Kirk meeting Old Spock.
Good example, as is well...........the rest of the movie haha. The only time it slows down is to make a bad joke.
-
Didn't know about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjQJKfG_p2o&feature=related
-
Star Trek: ENT was amazing and the larping nerds who complained about canon and shit, giving it low ratings and whatnot can all suck it.
That is all :)
-
Didn't know about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjQJKfG_p2o&feature=related
Hadn't heard of it either. Might check it out someday, but watching the video would blow it. Apparently, there's also a Star Trek: Klingon.
-
I am sure this has been mentioned, but I am enjoying the recently released streaming catalog of most ST stuff on Netflix.
I will also lobby an insult towards the ST-XI (not sure if discussed, not looking at entire thread). I know it is hard to keep up with the canon, and I understand why they made an alternate timeline, as it was clever. I appreciate the freshness of the approach, as an outside take was needed greatly from the Berman/Brag collective
My issue is with the producers (or JJ Abrams') apparent obsession with ST2: The Wrath of Khan. I understand the greatness of the movie. Already, we have had Kobayashi Maru situation, and actually a big chunk was devoted to that if I recall. And I would bet money that Khan will be in the next film (or two). My issues are ST2 was basically the most popular movie, or most beloved out of the films. And they are ripping stories from that potentially for many movies. Yet there are PLENTY of better villains/races IMO, and also PLENTY of other story lines in the canon to adapt from. I do not get the feeling from the X-men film franchise that they are citing one story only primarily.
ST2 is like the Final Fantasy VII of the franchise. Many place it as the greatest, but many who do have really not ventured far outside of that one title much at all. And that is really a shame, because there are so many more as good (if not debatable better) story lines in the franchise, or games in the case of FFVII. Khan as the greatest villain? He was in one episode, and one movie, right?
-
Ricardo Montalban only needed one episode and one movie. Even in TOS, he had such a commanding stage presence unlike any other, which elevated him well above other villians. His performance took an interesting episode, and brought it to a whole other level that few other episodes achieved.
And what other individual villian can rival him? A whale probe? Nero-feratu? I-can't-believe-it's-not-Picard? The guys addicted to plastic surgery? The greatness of the character came down to Montalban's performance, and he sold it brilliantly.
-
I watched the new star trek movie again last night. If you can't enjoy it for what it is then you probably hate everything. It was definitely good in comparisson to most new releases. It had it's elemt of cheese but keep in mind this is an entire new generation (why) in which they are also trying to turn onto Star Trek. If you compare how they did this to Superman Returns (which had more cheese but wasn't bad) or Star Wars (which should be the one to get a reboot) it's still a good flick.
-
I watched the new star trek movie again last night. If you can't enjoy it for what it is then you probably hate everything. It was definitely good in comparisson to most new releases. It had it's elemt of cheese but keep in mind this is an entire new generation (why) in which they are also trying to turn onto Star Trek. If you compare how they did this to Superman Returns (which had more cheese but wasn't bad) or Star Wars (which should be the one to get a reboot) it's still a good flick.
I guess I do hate everything. Thanks for telling me, I never would have known without your wisdom.
-
Glad I could help
-
I think they've rather definitively ruled out Khan in the new venture. There was a list of five potential villains, but I don't recall all of them. I think Gary Mitchell and Trelane were two of them.
Also looks like Paramount is insisting that they shoot this one in 3d. Oh joy.
-
No.
It Wasn't.
You're thinking of " The Phantom Menace ".
New Star Trek was "Painfully Bad".
-
Also looks like Paramount is insisting that they shoot this one in 3d. Oh joy.
1) I'd much prefer them put their foot down now than after all the shots are wrapped up, guaranteeing it to be a conversion...
2) You'll still be able to see it in 2D. Most theaters that have a 3D print will also have it available in 2D.
-
Also looks like Paramount is insisting that they shoot this one in 3d. Oh joy.
1) I'd much prefer them put their foot down now than after all the shots are wrapped up, guaranteeing it to be a conversion...
2) You'll still be able to see it in 2D. Most theaters that have a 3D print will also have it available in 2D.
For one thing, I won't see it in the theater anyway. More important, my concern is that they'll naturally be inclined to focus on gee-wiz eyecandy than actual writing, character development, plot, etc.
Personally, I like some good space battle action, but the modern version of it really sucks. Writing them to intentionally utilize 3D will make it even worth. Modern action sequences are completely devoid of plot or suspense. You never care who's chasing who, or who's shooting at what. You watch the action, appreciate the explosions and then move on with however the story plays out afterward. Spend five minutes drawing one of those out for Christ sakes. Reliant's surprise attack on Enterprise was infinitely better than any battle in XI. The Mutara nebula more so. Suspense has been replaced with chaos nowadays, and frankly it sucks.
-
Also looks like Paramount is insisting that they shoot this one in 3d. Oh joy.
1) I'd much prefer them put their foot down now than after all the shots are wrapped up, guaranteeing it to be a conversion...
2) You'll still be able to see it in 2D. Most theaters that have a 3D print will also have it available in 2D.
For one thing, I won't see it in the theater anyway. More important, my concern is that they'll naturally be inclined to focus on gee-wiz eyecandy than actual writing, character development, plot, etc.
Personally, I like some good space battle action, but the modern version of it really sucks. Writing them to intentionally utilize 3D will make it even worth. Modern action sequences are completely devoid of plot or suspense. You never care who's chasing who, or who's shooting at what. You watch the action, appreciate the explosions and then move on with however the story plays out afterward. Spend five minutes drawing one of those out for Christ sakes. Reliant's surprise attack on Enterprise was infinitely better than any battle in XI. The Mutara nebula more so. Suspense has been replaced with chaos nowadays, and frankly it sucks.
Hear hear!
-
Personally, I like some good space battle action, but the modern version of it really sucks. Writing them to intentionally utilize 3D will make it even worth.
I never notithd you typing with a lithp before.
-
Personally, I like some good space battle action, but the modern version of it really sucks. Writing them to intentionally utilize 3D will make it even worth.
I never notithd you typing with a lithp before.
Damn, I had to read that three times before I saw WTF you were talking about. I gueth I read with one, too. :lol
-
Hey guyth, I'm thuper, how ith everyone doing?
-
Star Wars (which should be the one to get a reboot)
wat
-
Actual monument in Riverside, Iowa.
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/other/kirkmonument.jpg)
-
That's right, they know what's up. :tup
-
Hell yes! :salute:
We need a saluting emoticon.
-
Do you think they got pissed off when the new movie rewrote history so Kirk got born in space instead?
-
Do you think they got pissed off when the new movie rewrote history so Kirk got born in space instead?
It didn't "rewrite" history - that's an alternate timeline. The real Kirk was still born in Iowa.
-
Do you think they got pissed off when the new movie rewrote history so Kirk got born in space instead?
It didn't "rewrite" history - that's an alternate timeline. The real Kirk was still born in Iowa.
I should have put an emoticon in there to show I was joking. I wasn't being too serious, it was just my first thought. :tup
-
Do you think they got pissed off when the new movie rewrote history so Kirk got born in space instead?
It didn't "rewrite" history - that's an alternate timeline. The real Kirk was still born in Iowa.
I should have put an emoticon in there to show I was joking. I wasn't being too serious, it was just my first thought. :tup
:neverusethis:
-
Do you think they got pissed off when the new movie rewrote history so Kirk got born in space instead?
It didn't "rewrite" history - that's an alternate timeline. The real Kirk was still born in Iowa.
This got me thinking. What re-wrote history was when the Romulan ship appeared, before that everything should have been the same. Now, Kirk's mom was obviously already in labor before the ship came, so that means that if the ship hadn't come and the timeline hadn't been re-written, he would have been born in space anyway.
-
Do you think they got pissed off when the new movie rewrote history so Kirk got born in space instead?
It didn't "rewrite" history - that's an alternate timeline. The real Kirk was still born in Iowa.
This got me thinking. What re-wrote history was when the Romulan ship appeared, before that everything should have been the same. Now, Kirk's mom was obviously already in labor before the ship came, so that means that if the ship hadn't come and the timeline hadn't been re-written, he would have been born in space anyway.
I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that post. I think the explanation is that it's an alternate universe (that is very similar), not the same one. I don't think it's straight time travel and changing the past of the same timeline. I think. Maybe.
Either that or they just ignored certain points of continuity like this for the sake of rebooting the franchise and creating a new backstory.
Either way, it's probably best to just ignore canon and accept that it's different.
-
This got me thinking.
Well, stop. It isn't worth it. That 'alternate timeline' stuff is garbage. :)
-
Do you think they got pissed off when the new movie rewrote history so Kirk got born in space instead?
It didn't "rewrite" history - that's an alternate timeline. The real Kirk was still born in Iowa.
This got me thinking. What re-wrote history was when the Romulan ship appeared, before that everything should have been the same. Now, Kirk's mom was obviously already in labor before the ship came, so that means that if the ship hadn't come and the timeline hadn't been re-written, he would have been born in space anyway.
I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that post. I think the explanation is that it's an alternate universe (that is very similar), not the same one. I don't think it's straight time travel and changing the past of the same timeline. I think. Maybe.
Either that or they just ignored certain points of continuity like this for the sake of rebooting the franchise and creating a new backstory.
Either way, it's probably best to just ignore canon and accept that it's different.
Based on the comic book tie in (which is official) it's that the time travel changed things, and it was the same time line until then.
-
Hey, could be the Kelvin was heading home until that happened.
-
Hey, could be the Kelvin was heading home until that happened.
They were in Klingon space, while I have no idea how far that is from federation space, I'm going to assume it's more than a few hours travel.
-
Based on the comic book tie in (which is official) it's that the time travel changed things, and it was the same time line until then.
I thought the writers explained that it wasn't the same universe, but a parallel one or something to that effect. But they had input on the comic tie-in, didn't they? Even though the comic is official though, it's still not "canon" as far as Trek is concerned.
I don't know, I'm not really arguing it, because tbh I don't care too strongly either way. I'm a big Trek fan, but the whole point of the reboot was to avoid canon issues, so I'm willing to just accept the contrivances. If they were going to stick religiously to canon, the Kelvin should have had a shitty painted wooden bridge.
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Of_Gods_and_Men
Has anybody ever watched this?
Nope. I have watched 2 or 3 of the New Voyages and didn't care for them. Looking at the cast of this, I assume it's pretty similar. The problem with NV is that they were constantly trying to force in as many references to the original series as possible*, and many of them were cheesy. The fact that Charlie Evans is included in this doesn't strike me as encouraging.
*The continuation of Captain Decker's story after the Planet Killer was pretty amusing, though.
I haven't watched NV but they do seem interesting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_New_Voyages)
It looks like they managed to get just about eveyr secondary character in - Chapel, Kyle, Rand.
-
Like I said, I saw that awful movie (or at least what I could stomach of it), you know with Uhura and Charlie X or whatever.
Just awful..............beyond awful, and no amount of references or actors brought back or anything could save it.
-
I still wish I understood why so many people like the new Star Trek. I thought it was painfully bad.
It wasn't painfully bad.
It had mostly good performances (few I didn't care for), great visuals, amazing opening sequence, believable villain (for the most part anyway), a decent script dialogue wise, a sexy green chick and ...........well............it was well directed? I dunno. It's harder to defend than I thought it would be.
For what it's worth, I actually enjoyed the movie. Not the best trek film, but certainly not the worst. At the very least, it blew Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis out of the water, and was about on par with First Contact (in that it was a fun action flick that you could enjoy if you ignored established cannon and common sense).
-
- The green chick wasn't even that sexy.
Whaaaaaa?!
(https://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/Gaila_Star_Trek.jpg)
Dude......... you can't be serious....... Rachel Nichols was freaking hot as an Orion animal woman, and even more so as Scarlett in G.I. Joe (Hell, she was pretty much the main reason to see that movie).
-
I still wish I understood why so many people like the new Star Trek. I thought it was painfully bad.
It wasn't painfully bad.
It had mostly good performances (few I didn't care for), great visuals, amazing opening sequence, believable villain (for the most part anyway), a decent script dialogue wise, a sexy green chick and ...........well............it was well directed? I dunno. It's harder to defend than I thought it would be.
For what it's worth, I actually enjoyed the movie. Not the best trek film, but certainly not the worst. At the very least, it blew Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis out of the water, and was about on par with First Contact (in that it was a fun action flick that you could enjoy if you ignored established cannon and common sense).
Why does everyone hate Generations SOOOOO much? Seriously, you'd think it was Star Trek V based off what people say about it. I'd say the new movie was on par with that and Insurrection, way better than Nemesis, but no where near First Contact. And I thought differently until I watched it like 5 times and noticed all the things wrong with it.
-
I still wish I understood why so many people like the new Star Trek. I thought it was painfully bad.
It wasn't painfully bad.
It had mostly good performances (few I didn't care for), great visuals, amazing opening sequence, believable villain (for the most part anyway), a decent script dialogue wise, a sexy green chick and ...........well............it was well directed? I dunno. It's harder to defend than I thought it would be.
For what it's worth, I actually enjoyed the movie. Not the best trek film, but certainly not the worst. At the very least, it blew Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis out of the water, and was about on par with First Contact (in that it was a fun action flick that you could enjoy if you ignored established cannon and common sense).
Why does everyone hate Generations SOOOOO much? Seriously, you'd think it was Star Trek V based off what people say about it. I'd say the new movie was on par with that and Insurrection, way better than Nemesis, but no where near First Contact. And I thought differently until I watched it like 5 times and noticed all the things wrong with it.
Because the ENTIRE plot of Generations was nothing more then a half-assed contrivance to get Kirk and Picard on screen together, and then when they do, Kirk does nothing more then get into a fist fight with Malcom McDowell and dies on a collapsing bridge saving some civilization we never see or care about.
Insurrection was basically just a mediocre TNG episode. It wasn't gods-awful, but I can think of countless TNG eps that were way better, to say nothing of First Contact or most of the TOS films.
Nemesis could have been a good movie, but it had two major flaws that killed any potential it had. 1 - it ripped of of Wrath of Khan waaaaaay too blatantly, and 2 - Shinzon was a pretty weak villain character wise (which is made all the more obvious by the fact the film ripped of WoK)
Oh, and seriously, a dune buggy chase??? In a STAR TREK FILM?!?!?!?
But at least we can agree that First Contact, despite some script blunders, was a pretty bad-ass movie. :tup
-
I agree on all of the problems with Generations (especially the entire thing with the Nexus, which caused too many plot holes), but I thought it had a lot of really good elements too. There were some great character moments, the Enterprise sets looked amazing, and I liked the majority of the plot. But shoehorning the original cast in there just weakened the movie, and showed no faith in the TNG cast.
-
The new movies plot wasn't all that amazing either. An angry guy who wants to destroy everything so that a few hundred years down the line, absolutely nothing can be altered because neither the Vulcans nor the Federation had anything to do with a freaking star going nova and destroying Romulas.
Wanna know what's going to happen in this new time line? Romulas will be destroyed, at the exact same time it was in the other time line.
So you have a pointless plot, which also served mostly just to get everyone on the same ship together, and of course the idea of time travel was just thrown in to give them more writing liberties and make sure Spock have a cameo. And unlike the other movies you mentioned, everyone knew how to play their characters properly, I never looked at Data and said "Good cruise....that is NOT how Data should act", while I did have to do that with Spock..........constantly because he was awfully miscast. And I can't imagine another Star Trek movie blatantly ignoring the laws of physics the way that movie did. (and they all do to some extent)
-
I agree entirely on the problems with the new movie. I disliked the new Trek movie at first, not because it changed everything, but simply because the plot was pathetic.
The bad guy's motivations were garbage and barely made sense, most of the cast were wasted for stupid one liners, Kirk's backstory was laid on too thick, the way he became captain was ridiculous, and the Transwarp beaming was lazy.
Aside from that, I thought the casting was good, the style was good, and I'm actually still excited for the next movie. But Trek XI was just a fun mindless action movie, and little more.
-
I agree entirely on the problems with the new movie. I disliked the new Trek movie at first, not because it changed everything, but simply because the plot was pathetic.
The bad guy's motivations were garbage and barely made sense, most of the cast were wasted for stupid one liners, Kirk's backstory was laid on too thick, the way he became captain was ridiculous, and the Transwarp beaming was lazy.
Aside from that, I thought the casting was good, the style was good, and I'm actually still excited for the next movie. But Trek XI was just a fun mindless action movie, and little more.
I think Bones and Chekov and hell even Sulu were well cast. Kirk was fine as well...............but Spock? Come on, aside from looking like Spock, he had NOTHING in the least in common with the original. Yea, I know it's a reboot, but he's a different person entirely, change his name to T'poop or something and no one would notice, he'd just be another random guy in pointy ears. Spock has specific way of delivering his lines, he has a sense of wisdom and irony.....Sylar had nothing, he was passive aggressive (VERY passive aggressive) and was from the very first moment just as emotional as anyone else in the movie, at no point did he even seem like a Vulcan.
And Uhura should have never become the leading female, there's just not enough there.
-
I agree entirely on the problems with the new movie. I disliked the new Trek movie at first, not because it changed everything, but simply because the plot was pathetic.
The bad guy's motivations were garbage and barely made sense, most of the cast were wasted for stupid one liners, Kirk's backstory was laid on too thick, the way he became captain was ridiculous, and the Transwarp beaming was lazy.
Aside from that, I thought the casting was good, the style was good, and I'm actually still excited for the next movie. But Trek XI was just a fun mindless action movie, and little more.
I think Bones and Chekov and hell even Sulu were well cast. Kirk was fine as well...............but Spock? Come on, aside from looking like Spock, he had NOTHING in the least in common with the original. Yea, I know it's a reboot, but he's a different person entirely, change his name to T'poop or something and no one would notice, he'd just be another random guy in pointy ears. Spock has specific way of delivering his lines, he has a sense of wisdom and irony.....Sylar had nothing, he was passive aggressive (VERY passive aggressive) and was from the very first moment just as emotional as anyone else in the movie, at no point did he even seem like a Vulcan.
And Uhura should have never become the leading female, there's just not enough there.
I actually thought Spock was one of the best cast. You're right that he plays the character differently, and without the brilliant subtlety of Nimoy's line delivery, but I thought he still felt like a Spock (aside from the crap with Uhura). They definitely played up the Vulcan/human dynamic a lot more than was done in TOS, although they did it a bit more in the movies. Nothing can touch Nimoy's Spock, but I thought he still did an admirable job. But the more I watch TOS, the more I realize how amazing Nimoy's performance was.
Bones was ok, but he felt too forced trying to copy the original performance, so it felt like a parody. That goes double for Chekov. It was just some kid cast because he could do a funny impersonation. But Chekov was never a good character, so I don't mind. Sulu was alright, but you'd forget he was even there, because he did hardly anything and had no personality. Uhura was fine, but they changed the role a fair bit. Scotty was good, I just wish he did more.
I thought Kirk was well cast, but the entire backstory was forced and stupid. WE GET IT. HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE WORLD'S BIGGEST BADASS. Ugh.
-
The new movies plot wasn't all that amazing either. An angry guy who wants to destroy everything so that a few hundred years down the line, absolutely nothing can be altered because neither the Vulcans nor the Federation had anything to do with a freaking star going nova and destroying Romulas.
Wanna know what's going to happen in this new time line? Romulas will be destroyed, at the exact same time it was in the other time line.
So you have a pointless plot, which also served mostly just to get everyone on the same ship together, and of course the idea of time travel was just thrown in to give them more writing liberties and make sure Spock have a cameo. And unlike the other movies you mentioned, everyone knew how to play their characters properly, I never looked at Data and said "Good cruise....that is NOT how Data should act", while I did have to do that with Spock..........constantly because he was awfully miscast. And I can't imagine another Star Trek movie blatantly ignoring the laws of physics the way that movie did. (and they all do to some extent)
The difference, though, is that while certain parts of Trek XI's plot and script may have been a poorly conceived contrivance to "re-boot" the franchise while maintaining canonical continuity, the film itself was actually pretty cool and fun to watch with characters and a story that actually mattered to the audience . Say what you will about the casting or the portrayal of classic characters, we actually saw the new version of the classic crew grow and evolve as people in a story that we were actually emotionally invested in. Star Trek XI may have fucked up the ST universe, but taken on it's own, it was a damn good movie, despite a few plot holes and occasional lapses in common sense. The story followed in a classic heroic arc that, while not exactly original, was pretty well told, and was something that anyone could follow and relate too. Not to say that I feel every movie needs to follow the same basic plot outline (and in fact, Star Trek has on multiple occasions done out of the ordinary stories quite well), but for what it was, the movie rocked. The movie never claimed to be, nor presented itself as, the next 2001: A Space Odyssey; it was purely a fun action movie, and the story facilitated the purpose of the film in a way that at least made the film fun to watch, even if it was nothing complex or thought provoking.
Conversely, Generations was a mess of unrelated storylines and plot devices, and there was very little in Generations that anyone really cared about. Mixing in the TOS crew with the NextGen crew was a big mistake, and personally I think it was a major insult to TNG. But even beyond that, the entire plot was nothing that we would really care about and it was boring as hell. The fucking Nexus made no sense whatsoever and was purely a plot device to bring Kirk into the 24th century. But the whole plot revolved around the Nexus because the only reason for the movie existing was to have Kirk and Picard fight the bad guy together (again, a bad guy who was attempting to blow up a civilization that we never saw. At least Nero blew up a planet that had emotional value to the characters, and by proxy, the audience, and he attempted to blow up Earth as well). Since the whole story was built around such a pointless plot contrivance, the result was a boring film with a very weak story. On top of that, pretty much every sub-plot in the movie was useless to the overall story of Kirk, Sauron and the Nexus. Data's whole emotion-chip thing did nothing for the overall story; all it did was turn Data into the comic relief of the film, which was totally unnecessary. The Duras sisters were basically just there as Sauron's muscle, which was a horrible waste of their characters who had been part of one of the best multi-episode story arcs in TNG. The movie was just built upon a very weak foundation because the only reason it was made was to show the two most famous Enterprise captains working together in the third act. That was the only reason for it's existence, and it came off like a bad piece of fan-fiction.
On the other hand, the new film was made to pump some new blood into what had been at the time, a dying franchise. It may have had some story issues, but overall it had a much stronger reason for being made, which provided a better foundation for a more enjoyable movie-going experience. The little plot inconsistencies don't really matter (for either movie) because all fiction requires at least a little suspension of disbelief. What does matter though is if the story being told is interesting to the audience, and if the filmmakers can get the audience to give a shit about what is going on in the movie. JJ Abrams and his crew seemed to genuinely have a story to tell, and while their efforts were not perfect, they got the job done. Generations was made for no reason other then to satisfy some fan-wank by have the two captains collaborating on something that we are told is important, but really given no reason to care about. To me, that is a bad movie. It's not about plot issues, or casting problems, or the little technical things like that, it basically all comes down to "does this movie succeed at what it was trying to accomplish?" STXI wanted to re-invent Star Trek as a modern sci-fi action flick that was fun to watch. It accomplished that. What was the point of Generations? From what I can tell, it was watching Stewart and Shatner punching Malcom McDowell in the face. If that was the point of the movie, then good for them, but since it was billed as this epic clash of two Star Treks, only to end up with a boooooooooring, half assed plot that no-one cared about and an anti-climactic death for one of the most classic of Star Trek characters, I cannot help but view the movie as a failure.
-
Holy Jesus I read none of that.
-
- The green chick wasn't even that sexy.
Whaaaaaa?!
(https://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/Gaila_Star_Trek.jpg)
Dude......... you can't be serious....... Rachel Nichols was freaking hot as an Orion animal woman, and even more so as Scarlett in G.I. Joe (Hell, she was pretty much the main reason to see that movie).
I'd bang her til she turned purple!
-
She is not at all attractive in that picture.
-
She is not at all attractive in that picture.
Take it green isn't your favorite color?
-
She could be purple for all I care; she is a hot woman.
-
I've never really been attracted to colored girls.
It's a joke! Calm down! :chill
:neverusethis:
-
You're yellow.
She is not at all attractive in that picture.
Take it green isn't your favorite color?
She just looks very unattractive there, maybe it's a bad colour for her.
-
I have some problems with Generations (mostly to do with the Nexus, which I agree creates too many plot-holes to count) but I thought it had terrific performances from all 3 leads (Shatner, Stewart, McDowell) and it was beautifully filmed in my opinion. The original premise of ST was never about showy sci-fi action and SE but was about humanistic stories set against the backdrop of space. In that regard, I think Generations is successful when you consider the emotions and experiences the characters went through (Kirk: death-life-death; Picard losing his nephew and willingly giving up "heaven").
-
Yes, I thought TNG really missed a McCoy character (apart from Pulaski maybe) for a humanistic angle.
-
I thought Dr. Crusher was an interesting angle, at first. The idea that she and Capt. Picard had a history had some potential, and obviously the idea was to not make it exactly like the Kirk-McCoy dynamic. But it quickly became lame and boring. Dr. Pulaski was a step in the right direction, overall a more interesting character, and I wish she'd stuck around.
I seem to recall that Gates McFadden (Crusher) had an issue with one of the producers or something, so she left the series. After some investigation and fan outcry, the offending party was canned and she came back.
-
Crusher wasn't the most interesting character, but I hated Pulaski so much. She should have just stuck to being a blind telepath.
-
What didn't you like about Dr. Pulaski? She definitely came across as more abrasive and bitchy, especially after all the warm empathy of Dr. Crusher (which I thought was part of what made her so boring), but that was obviously the idea. They went a different direction with it.
-
What didn't you like about Dr. Pulaski? She definitely came across as more abrasive and bitchy, especially after all the warm empathy of Dr. Crusher (which I thought was part of what made her so boring), but that was obviously the idea. They went a different direction with it.
Well it's been a while since I've seen most of season 2 (although I've seen a couple recently), but I just found she took too much joy in being a bitch for the sake of it, without having enough of a relationship with the characters to get away with it. I think that was one of the big differences to me between Pulaski and McCoy, who they were obviously trying to emulate.
I agree that Crusher's kindness made her a bit boring and perhaps pointless, but she was inoffensive enough, so I never had a problem with her.
-
The Pulaski/Data dynamic made her a huge improvement over Crusher.
-
Yeah, I can see how Dr. Pulaski's no-nonsense bedside manner wouldn't work for a lot of people. It didn't work for me at first, either. Good point about how she hadn't really "earned" it -- I can imagine most patients leaving sick bay thinking "Damn, the new doctor's a real bitch."
But I liked her dynamic with Data, as El Barto pointed out. He had to earn her respect, and he did. (The question of whether or not he should have had to earn it in the first place is another matter.) I specifically remember the issue of how his name is pronounced.
And she did the Klingon Tea Ceremony with Worf. Yeah, it's poison; let's do it. She was a ballsy lady.
-
I have some problems with Generations (mostly to do with the Nexus, which I agree creates too many plot-holes to count) but I thought it had terrific performances from all 3 leads (Shatner, Stewart, McDowell) and it was beautifully filmed in my opinion. The original premise of ST was never about showy sci-fi action and SE but was about humanistic stories set against the backdrop of space. In that regard, I think Generations is successful when you consider the emotions and experiences the characters went through (Kirk: death-life-death; Picard losing his nephew and willingly giving up "heaven").
I :heart Generations. I just love how it "feels". The gorgeous music and the visuals and the epic scale of it all.
The nexus was awesome. i actually wished Soran got to stay in the Nexus as he only wanted to get back there. :-[
I imagined when Kirk and Picard came back to Veridian III, it was an alternate version and Soran was still in the nexus.
Of course you could argue that Picard and Kirk are still in the nexus and it just showed Picard what he wanted to see :P
-
I liked Pulaski, brought some much needed spice to the cast, even if the character initially comes off as a McCoy copy. Wish they had stayed with her actually.
-
Did they explain in one episdoe why she'd left. ISTR Wesley narrating it?
-
Did they explain in one episdoe why she'd left. ISTR Wesley narrating it?
Crusher? She left to teach.
-
No - Pulaski
-
Dr. Crusher left the Enterprise to take a position at Star Fleet Medical. When the behind-the-scenes crap was settled and Gates McFadden decided to come back, they retconned and mentioned that Dr. Crusher's sabbatical (or temporary assignment or whatever they called it) was ending and she was coming back. They didn't address it specifically, but the idea was that she used her seniority and clout to get her position back, bumping Dr. Pulaski. This basically echoed what happened behind the scenes. Gates McFadden came back so they bumped Diana Muldaur. It was a little easier to do because Diana Muldaur was never added to the regular cast; despite being in the entire season, she was always a "special guest star".
-
According to Memory-Alpha, it was Muldaur's decision to remain a special guest. No explanation why. Maybe she figured all along that this was how it would play out.
In retrospect, like most people I thought at the time that I didn't like her and preferred Crusher. Looking back, I actually liked Pulaski a lot and would have been keen to see Crusher blown out of an airlock.
-
Special guest star is a way to advertise oneself as available for other jobs. David Ogden Stiers kept that status on The Dead Zone, despite being one of the main characters, for that reason.
-
According to Memory-Alpha, it was Muldaur's decision to remain a special guest. No explanation why. Maybe she figured all along that this was how it would play out.
In retrospect, like most people I thought at the time that I didn't like her and preferred Crusher. Looking back, I actually liked Pulaski a lot and would have been keen to see Crusher blown out of an airlock.
Better yet, Wesley blown out of an airlock. Seriously, who else couldn't stand him?
-
According to Memory-Alpha, it was Muldaur's decision to remain a special guest. No explanation why. Maybe she figured all along that this was how it would play out.
In retrospect, like most people I thought at the time that I didn't like her and preferred Crusher. Looking back, I actually liked Pulaski a lot and would have been keen to see Crusher blown out of an airlock.
Better yet, Wesley blown out of an airlock. Seriously, who else couldn't stand him?
I hated Wesley. Picard should have booted his ass off the Enterprise.
-
The idea of Wesley Crusher probably looked good on paper, at least to some. It's the future, there's this whiz kid genius on board, the son of an officer and personal friend of the captain. The problem was the casting. Wil Wheaton did not have the demeanor to project a likeable geek. He just came across as a spoiled kid you want to slap multiple times. I've seen shows where the geek (and there can be only one) is great, everybody likes him, or at least respects him, and I've seen shows where you just want to thrash him soundly. Wesley falls into the second category. On the show itself, everybody liked him, which added to the confusion, because almost no fans did.
-
I don't suppose my issue was with Wheaton, and to be fair he was put into a damned awkward situation. What I disliked was that the Enterprise was some floating cross section of society, with all the families and children on-board. That's not the Star Trek I want to watch on television. Quite a stupid concept, frankly, and once they set that as a premise, it made for 7 seasons of oft-shitty TV. Wesley was pretty much the embodiment of that problem. There's a joke that Kirk would have thrown him off the ship, but in reality, Kirk would have tossed his mother off the ship the moment McCoy filled out the crewman knocked up form.
-
I don't suppose my issue was with Wheaton, and to be fair he was put into a damned awkward situation. What I disliked was that the Enterprise was some floating cross section of society, with all the families and children on-board. That's not the Star Trek I want to watch on television. Quite a stupid concept, frankly, and once they set that as a premise, it made for 7 seasons of oft-shitty TV. Wesley was pretty much the embodiment of that problem. There's a joke that Kirk would have thrown him off the ship, but in reality, Kirk would have tossed his mother off the ship the moment McCoy filled out the crewman knocked up form.
I thought it added a new dynamic to the show. When it was all Starfleet on board, then the captain could see them as dying honorable deaths if worse came to worse. But when there's families on board, then Picard has to be extra considerate about what he does. It just makes every decision he makes more difficult.
-
I don't suppose my issue was with Wheaton, and to be fair he was put into a damned awkward situation. What I disliked was that the Enterprise was some floating cross section of society, with all the families and children on-board. That's not the Star Trek I want to watch on television. Quite a stupid concept, frankly, and once they set that as a premise, it made for 7 seasons of oft-shitty TV. Wesley was pretty much the embodiment of that problem. There's a joke that Kirk would have thrown him off the ship, but in reality, Kirk would have tossed his mother off the ship the moment McCoy filled out the crewman knocked up form.
I thought it added a new dynamic to the show. When it was all Starfleet on board, then the captain could see them as dying honorable deaths if worse came to worse. But when there's families on board, then Picard has to be extra considerate about what he does. It just makes every decision he makes more difficult.
I don't think Kirk was ever less concerned for the welfare of his crew than Picard was of his. Furthermore, Picard would occasionally grow a pair and put all 87,000 of them at extreme risk. Hell, he was willing to blow them all up himself on occasion.
-
Perhaps, but it's easier for a soldier to demand the lives of other soldiers than it is to demand the lives of civilians.
-
Fuck 'em. I'm pretty sure they knew the risks.
Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that compartmentalization is pretty high on the list of desirable characteristics for a starship captain.
-
So many times I want to post a thought, and realize it would be much easier to just quote Barto.
In retrospect, like most people I thought at the time that I didn't like her and preferred Crusher. Looking back, I actually liked Pulaski a lot and would have been keen to see Crusher blown out of an airlock.
-
Bart, it really just seems that you dislike the entire premise of TNG.
-
I rather like the premise. It's the details I can't stand.
Every season had a handful of good episodes, but for every Sins of the Father, there were four [insert pedantic Troi epsiode]'s. Most of the crew sucked ass, and all of them, save Data, were fairly meaningless. Yet easily half of the episodes are centered around one of these silly people.
-
I rather like the premise. It's the details I can't stand.
Every season had a handful of good episodes, but for every Sins of the Father, there were four [insert pedantic Troi epsiode]'s. Most of the crew sucked ass, and all of them, save Data, were fairly meaningless. Yet easily half of the episodes are centered around one of these silly people.
Fair enough, I agree that Data rocked, but I guess different strokes and all of that stuff.
-
Better yet, Wesley blown out of an airlock. Seriously, who else couldn't stand him?
He was alright in a few later episodes when he only showed every now and then, but the boy wonder of the early seasons was awful.
-
Just to say there's a Survivor for ST:TNG https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=26784.0
Re.Wesley - the later episodes I thought were great like the final mission he went on with Picard. Also when he came back from the academy - and when he left the academy. The second one I mentioned - didn't he fall in love with some young lady in the story who later in real life became quite famous?
-
Yeah, Ashley Judd was a guest star in an early episode, and she and Wesley get along very well. It's hard to summarize what happened to their relationship without giving away a really awesome scene, so let's just say there was a serious, um, physical incompatibility.
-
What are you talking about?
-
Yeah, Ashley Judd was a guest star in an early episode, and she and Wesley get along very well. It's hard to summarize what happened to their relationship without giving away a really awesome scene, so let's just say there was a serious, um, physical incompatibility.
I don't recall that one. I do recall Ashley Judd being hot though. :biggrin:
-
Yeah, Ashley Judd was a guest star in an early episode, and she and Wesley get along very well. It's hard to summarize what happened to their relationship without giving away a really awesome scene, so let's just say there was a serious, um, physical incompatibility.
I don't recall that one.
I do. What an awful episode.
-
What are you talking about?
Wasn't she the one who had a guardian who turned into a beast to protect her, then Ashley herself turned into a beast?
-
Crap, I looked it up and I was thinking of a different episode. There was an episode where Wesley falls in love with this girl who turns out to be a big hairy creature, or at least a shape-shifter. Seeing her in her "alternate form" kinda turned him off.
-
Crap, I looked it up and I was thinking of a different episode. There was an episode where Wesley falls in love with this girl who turns out to be a big hairy creature, or at least a shape-shifter. Seeing her in her "alternate form" kinda turned him off.
Yea, awful episode. Forgot if Ashley Judd were in that one or another though.
-
No , Judd was in that addicting flash game one, and maybe one or two others before it.
-
No , Judd was in that addicting flash game one, and maybe one or two others before it.
Oh yea, that one wasn't bad.
-
Crap, I looked it up and I was thinking of a different episode. There was an episode where Wesley falls in love with this girl who turns out to be a big hairy creature, or at least a shape-shifter. Seeing her in her "alternate form" kinda turned him off.
So then who is the girl that turns into that creepy monster thing? I thought that was Judd.
-
Crap, I looked it up and I was thinking of a different episode. There was an episode where Wesley falls in love with this girl who turns out to be a big hairy creature, or at least a shape-shifter. Seeing her in her "alternate form" kinda turned him off.
So then who is the girl that turns into that creepy monster thing? I thought that was Judd.
Jaime Hubbard.
-
Yeah, I thought that was her too, but I looked it up and Adami is right; it's an actress named Jaime Hubbard. She apparently did that episode of TNG, a made-for-TV movie, a couple of guest appearances on other TV shows, then disappeared.
-
Yeah, I thought that was her too, but I looked it up and Adami is right; it's an actress named Jaime Hubbard. She apparently did that episode of TNG, a made-for-TV movie, a couple of guest appearances on other TV shows, then disappeared.
Disappear? Or morph into a bear thing and rule a planet?
-
It was her destiny! That's what the old lady kept saying, the reason why she and Wesley couldn't get involved. Man, it's all coming back to me now. Except I keep imagining Ashley Judd as the girl.
-
Just so we're all clear here, you keep having dreams about Ashley Judd turning into a beast?
-
Just so we're all clear here, you keep having dreams about Ashley Judd turning into a beast?
Yes, he keeps dreaming about Ashley Judd turning into Wynnona Judd.
-
Argh! Everything is ruined forever!
-
Wow, just looked up her picture and totally not Judd haha. So what was Judds characters story?
-
Wow, just looked up her picture and totally not Judd haha. So what was Judds characters story?
She was in an episode about Picard speaking metaphorically to an alien on a planet. But her main episode was when Wesley comes to the Enterprise and Riker introduces everyone to an addictive game that is designed to keep everyone under control by some group who wants to take over. And only Wesley and Ashley can stop them.
-
Hold on now, it wasn't a cameo! :p
-
I thought Judd was either the young Q protegé, or the girl that everybody hated until they blasted her into Romulan space in a photon tube, never to be heard from again. It looks like I'm getting my jail-bate mixed up.
-
I thought Judd was either the young Q protegé, or the girl that everybody hated until they blasted her into Romulan space in a photon tube, never to be heard from again. It looks like I'm getting my jail-bate mixed up.
That first episode was the sister from The Wonder Years. And I seriously am having trouble any episode where they launched some girl into space cause they hated her.
-
She was one of the cadets that caused that kid's death in attempting whatever that dangerous aerial maneuver was at the graduation ceremony. She transferred aboard and Picard made it clear how much he loathed her and generally ragged on her every chance he got. After putting up with his abuse for a while, she got sent on some ultra-risky courier mission that involved launcher her into Romulan space. When her friends were lamenting her apparent demise, Picard explained to them that he had actually requested her so that she'd be give a fair chance to redeem herself, and he was just "encouraging" her with his constant abuse.
-
She was one of the cadets that caused that kid's death in attempting whatever that dangerous aerial maneuver was at the graduation ceremony. She transferred aboard and Picard made it clear how much he loathed her and generally ragged on her every chance he got. After putting up with his abuse for a while, she got sent on some ultra-risky courier mission that involved launcher her into Romulan space. When her friends were lamenting her apparent demise, Picard explained to them that he had actually requested her so that she'd be give a fair chance to redeem herself, and he was just "encouraging" her with his constant abuse.
Dude she was sent on a mission and was killed by the cardassians, I remember now. She wasn't launched into Romulan space because everyone hated her.
Stop hating on TNG so much! Hate on Voyager if you have to.
-
Stop hating on TNG so much! Hate on Voyager if you have to.
No, don't hate on Voyager. hate on Enterprise.
If you've ever seen an episode. Can't blame you.
-
Stop hating on TNG so much! Hate on Voyager if you have to.
No, don't hate on Voyager. hate on Enterprise.
If you've ever seen an episode. Can't blame you.
Enterprise was awesome, for the most part. But it did have the official worst last episode to any show.............ever.
Ok, the first 2 seasons were meh, but the 3rd and 4th seasons of Enterprise were amazing.
-
I never said they blasted her into space because they hated her. I said they hated her and then blasted her into space. :lol
And aside from having mixed up the Romulans and the Cardassians, I think my summary was pretty reasonable. For that matter, I seem to recall that it was actually a pretty good episode, by TNG standards.
-
Enterprise was awesome, for the most part. But it did have the official worst last episode to any show.............ever.
Ok, the first 2 seasons were meh, but the 3rd and 4th seasons of Enterprise were amazing.
I liked Enterprise too, although I thought Voyager was a lot better. Season 3 of Enterprise was great, and while I'd put S4 as the second best season, I don't think it was as amazing as some people do.
But let's not ever mention that last episode ever again. Ever.
-
Voyager and Enterprise both had their moments. I probably preferred Voyager to TNG, but it also had extreme instances of cheesiness. Enterprise just had a tone that I wasn't crazy about, although it is cool that the entire show seemed to be built around finding excuses to to slather lotion all over the Vulcan chick. I really wish it had been better, as there were concepts that I thought were fantastic. The entire notion of the Xindi, being 6 races that evolved to sentience, was brilliant. Shran was of course a wonderful character. Some of the crew actually were pretty interesting. They also did some silly stuff, though. Too many times they tried to forcibly write in references to the future that didn't really work. I seem to recall an early visit by the Borg, and also an attempt to tie in Khan and Noonian Soong.
-
Voyager and Enterprise both had their moments. I probably preferred Voyager to TNG, but it also had extreme instances of cheesiness. Enterprise just had a tone that I wasn't crazy about, although it is cool that the entire show seemed to be built around finding excuses to to slather lotion all over the Vulcan chick. I really wish it had been better, as there were concepts that I thought were fantastic. The entire notion of the Xindi, being 6 races that evolved to sentience, was brilliant. Shran was of course a wonderful character. Some of the crew actually were pretty interesting. They also did some silly stuff, though. Too many times they tried to forcibly write in references to the future that didn't really work. I seem to recall an early visit by the Borg, and also an attempt to tie in Khan and Noonian Soong.
I agree on pretty much all of this. While I liked Enterprise, it was boxed in by canon, and they tried to shoehorn in references to other shows on technicality and semantics, such as the Romulans, the Borg, and other stuff. At its heart it tried to be in the formula of the original series, but it was much too sterile to recapture that. And the 4th season was a lot of fanwank, and I mean a lot of it. Virtually every episode was tying up loose ends from previous Trek.
But I'm not going to lie. I didn't mind the excuses to get people into the lotion chambe..... I mean, the de-con chamber. I always preferred the cute asian chick to the Vulcan though. Shame she was hardly in the last 2 seasons.
-
She was one of the cadets that caused that kid's death in attempting whatever that dangerous aerial maneuver was at the graduation ceremony. She transferred aboard and Picard made it clear how much he loathed her and generally ragged on her every chance he got. After putting up with his abuse for a while, she got sent on some ultra-risky courier mission that involved launcher her into Romulan space. When her friends were lamenting her apparent demise, Picard explained to them that he had actually requested her so that she'd be give a fair chance to redeem herself, and he was just "encouraging" her with his constant abuse.
Which episode was this?
Some of the death or disappearance episodes were quite sad e.g. Ro Laren, Suder, the Mars mission flashback in Voyager, or the Voyager one where they meet an alien who was once a crew member killed several seasons before. Any others?
-
It was the episode where a Bajoran girl who had disappointed Picard a few years earlier was serving on the Enterprise. Then she was asked to go on a secret away mission to pose a Bajoran prisoner to a Cardassian traitor so that he might safely get back to Cardassia, but they were both killed in the mission.
-
Yeah, I much preferred Hoshi, as well.
One of the interesting things that ST has often done was to cast really hot chicks and then design them unattractively. It's an interesting effect, in that a lot of the characters aren't particularly good looking (in my opinion, at least), but they have a real underlying hotness. I couldn't stand 7/9, but Annika Hansen was stunning. Similarly, Jolene Blalock was really hot, but the Vulcan hair never worked for me.
It was the episode where a Bajoran girl who had disappointed Picard a few years earlier was serving on the Enterprise. Then she was asked to go on a secret away mission to pose a Bajoran prisoner to a Cardassian traitor so that he might safely get back to Cardassia, but they were both killed in the mission.
They didn't launch her out in a photon tube?
-
No, they didn't launch her out of a photon tube.
-
Yeah, I much preferred Hoshi, as well.
One of the interesting things that ST has often done was to cast really hot chicks and then design them unattractively. It's an interesting effect, in that a lot of the characters aren't particularly good looking (in my opinion, at least), but they have a real underlying hotness. I couldn't stand 7/9, but Annika Hansen was stunning. Similarly, Jolene Blalock was really hot, but the Vulcan hair never worked for me.
I never much liked the Vulcan look. The costume was unflattering, and the pixie ears and haircut did nothing for me.
Although I thought 7/9 still looked hot. She looked much hotter with her hair out of course, but that catsuit kept me pretty happy.
-
No, they didn't launch her out of a photon tube.
Yeah, I found the episode. https://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Lower_Decks_%28episode%29
She was supposed to return in an escape pod, which they found destroyed. That's what was thinking of.
-
I remember it now and the link to the earlier episode with Wesley crusher. Apparently she was rescued: https://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sito_Jaxa
-
I don't think Enterprise was boxed in by canon at all, think about it for a moment. Instead of inventing a new race and completely fucking up already established timeline. They could have had the beginnings of the Romulan war or anything else that was going on at the time. I'm sure many of you like myself would have enjoyed seeing how it all want down.
That Borg episode pissed me off. The Borg and Q were thrown into episodes for unnecessary fan service. They ripped out the awesomeness that was the first encounter with TNG. Fuckers
-
Although I thought 7/9 still looked hot. She looked much hotter with her hair out of course, but that catsuit kept me pretty happy.
Awwwww yeeeeeeah :eyebrows:
-
That Borg episode pissed me off. The Borg and Q were thrown into episodes for unnecessary fan service. They ripped out the awesomeness that was the first encounter with TNG. Fuckers
They had an episode with The Borg and Q?!?! Holy fuck, I'm glad I didn't watch that show.
I've seen every episode of TOS and TNG multiple times, each Voyager at least once, and I apparently gave up on DS9 too soon (someday I'll remedy that), but I tried Enterprise and couldn't hang with it. Yeah, the Vulcan chick was hot, but come on. I think I watched two episodes, and in both of them they found some excuse to get her clothes off. Seriously, that's what it's come to?
I heard some Enterprise episodes were actually pretty good, which I believe, but that the final episode blew chunks, and really... Q and The Borg?
-
The third and most of the 4th season of Enterprise was great, just the rushed ending because they were canceled and had to quicly write an ending so it felt rushed.
-
That Borg episode pissed me off. The Borg and Q were thrown into episodes for unnecessary fan service. They ripped out the awesomeness that was the first encounter with TNG. Fuckers
They had an episode with The Borg and Q?!?! Holy fuck, I'm glad I didn't watch that show.
I've seen every episode of TOS and TNG multiple times, each Voyager at least once, and I apparently gave up on DS9 too soon (someday I'll remedy that), but I tried Enterprise and couldn't hang with it. Yeah, the Vulcan chick was hot, but come on. I think I watched two episodes, and in both of them they found some excuse to get her clothes off. Seriously, that's what it's come to?
I heard some Enterprise episodes were actually pretty good, which I believe, but that the final episode blew chunks, and really... Q and The Borg?
If you're going to ever watch it again, best just skip to S3 (although you need to watch the finale of S2 to start the storyline).
But I don't remember anything with the Q in Enterprise at all.
And the Borg idea wasn't that bad. It was Borg who were left there from First Contact, which is plausible enough (considering it's Trek). Why did TNG have to be the first encounter with the Borg? If you want to get technical, it was already changed in First Contact when Lily saw the Borg on the ship, and even knew them by name. She was the first chronological human contact with them. So I don't really see the problem with the Borg in Enterprise. Much like everything else they rehashed, it was nothing new, and not done as well, but in theory I have no issue with it.
-
They had an episode with The Borg and Q?!?! Holy fuck, I'm glad I didn't watch that show.
-
Ah, I'd forgotten about The Borg stuff in First Contact. I even liked that movie overall, but man, what a mess.
When Q introduces the TNG crew to The Borg, it's supposedly the first time we've ever seen anything even remotely like them, and the first time they've heard about us. Q even makes a point of saying that The Borg now know about us, and they'll be coming for us, or something like that. If we'd contacted them back in Cochrane's time, and again in the time of Enterprise, then the amazing first contact with them in TNG is completely neutered, as El JoNNo said.
I guess you could argue that Q is omnipotent (by our standards) but not omniscient, so he didn't actually realize that The Borg knew about humans before the TNG episode, but basically it seems like they were included in Enterprise just to include an awesome species that had been created in the Star Trek universe, and they came up with a half-assed plot to shoehorn them in. So yeah, it was fanservice. But I never saw it, so I can't say how well or poorly it was done.
-
I really don't see the big deal of their introduction in TNG. It's not like it was all that good or detailed. It was the later episodes where they explored the Borg further that made them such a classic Trek race, not the fact that no human had ever seen one before, or that no Borg had ever known about Earth before.
I'm glad they ignored a quick line in an undeveloped plot for the sake of First Contact, as it's easily one of the better Trek movies. And maybe people should at least watch the episode of Enterprise before complaining! While it wasn't a great episode, they did actually make a solid attempt to fit it within canon, unlike their clumsy mishandling of the Romulans.
-
When i mentioned Q and the Borg it was a general statement, the Q and the Borg have been in nearly every series. The same can be said about almost every "main" species. However, those species IE Vulcuns, Romulans, Klingons etc.. Are all plausible with the exception of Enterprise. Enterprise was the only series where most of the main species had not made contact yet.
-
The only races I can remember from Enterprise that shouldn't have made contact yet were the Romulans and the Borg. The Romulans were an absolute mess, especially with the cloaked ship episodes. The Borg were only for one episode, and I was happy enough with the way it fitted into the timeline.
I don't recall the rest having the backstory to contradict Enterprise (such as Klingons, Andorians, Tellarites), and obviously the Vulcans were ok due to First Contact.
-
I thought the Borg thing was fine, it was well before much of what happened was properly recorded since the federation didn't exist yet.
And Q was never in Enterprise.
-
OK, I didn't see it. So someone tell me how the Borg wound up in Enterprise without Q?
-
OK, I didn't see it. So someone tell me how the Borg wound up in Enterprise without Q?
They were on earth from the incidents of First Contact, frozen in I guess the arctic or something. Then some scientists found them, studied them, got assimilated, the Borg took off trying to get back home, but Dr. Becket stopped them.
-
Okay, that sounds tolerable at least, provided the execution wasn't completely fumbled. Still, at this point I probably would only watch Enterprise by renting the DVDs and starting from the beginning. Knowing ahead of time that it doesn't really find its stride until the third season, and there were only four seasons, is discouraging. I'll probably go with Deep Space Nine first. My buddy's wife has them all on DVD, and I'm sure I could borrow them.
-
Every ST show starts off terribly for a while.
-
Good point.
-
Every ST show starts off terribly for a while.
I must be the only person that doesn't hate the first two seasons of DS9. They're certainly much, much better than (most of) the first 3 seasons of TNG.
Netflix is starting to make a lot of Trek streaming, so it'd be pretty easy to watch if you don't have the DVD's. Actually, DS9 is the only show that's not available to stream. :lol
-
The first 3 seasons of TNG aren't great, and they have episodes WAY worse than anything from DS9, but they have stuff that was also way better than anything in the first two seasons of DS9.
Hell, when I did my DS9 rewatch, I literally just skipped the 1st season.
-
The Borg episode in Enterprise was actually pretty good. I rolled my eyes when I heard about it, but when I actually gave it a chance, it turned out to be one of the better and more memorable episodes in the series.
What did bother me in Enterprise was the way the handled the Klingons, specifically how they felt the need to explain in cannon why TOS Klingons had no ridges and were generally less honourable then klingons from TNG onward. The whole space plague idea was just so very, very random and ill-conceived, only to tie up a relatively minor in-universe consistency issue derived solely from TOS' general lack of a budget. The way they handled the Romulans bugged the crap out of me too.
Enterprise had a lot of untapped potential, and while the later seasons were very well written, the show gradually started to give into fan-wankery much too easily in a vain attempt to maintain interest by hard core trekkers and increase ratings. It's a damn shame the show was never really allowed to fully stand on it's own, as they had some rather intriguing concepts (the Xindi) that could have played out very well, given enough time to develop and grow, like DS9 and the Dominion. It had many commendable moments, but all too often tried to take the easy road of fan service, and sadly died with a whimper well before it's time.
-
I thought the Xindi were brilliant. It was an entire season long episode pretty much, which is something ST had never done ever. And I have no idea how much more time you could have wanted with the Xindi, it was an entire season.
Also, I agree about the Klingons. I think they should have left the explanation as to why TOS ones looked differently with Worf's "We don't discuss it with outsiders". Quick, witty, succinct, and to the point.
-
I thought the Xindi were brilliant. It was an entire season long episode pretty much, which is something ST had never done ever. And I have no idea how much more time you could have wanted with the Xindi, it was an entire season.
Oh, they were developed fine as a concept, but I was just hoping to see them take the place as the main alien race in ENT. I wasn't complaining that they didn't get enough time in the series as is, I simply wanted to see more of them. What really bothered me about the Klingons and the Romulans was that it felt like the writers were using those established races as a crutch to increase appeal to the fans and thus act as a ratings magnet, and in the process stifling untapped potential of fresh ideas by simply rehashing old fan-favourites. If they had tried to do the same with the Borg, that would have annoyed me as well, but the Borg only had one episode, and it was a good one at that, so they were not really an issue.
-
Every ST show starts off terribly for a while.
They usually get the first episode right, though. TNG, DS9, and Voyager all had great openers. I can't quite recall the Enterprise one, but it was at least pretty good.
The TNG first season is downright awful looking back. Granted a third to half of TNG is pretty bad regardless, but that first season is surprisingly tough to watch now. The whole series seemed really feast or famine to me. Season 1 was plain and simple starvation.
DS9 tried too hard to recall TNG sometimes in the first season, but it put out some excellent episodes. I've been surprised before at how much of the first season I can watch and enjoy. Also, the end of the first season and beginning of the second season is one of the best runs of episodes the entire series.
Voyager turned what should have been the driving mechanism for the series, the two crew conflict for survival, into a superficial element. That sin alone made the first season a tremendous disappointment. It wasn't so bad compared to early TNG seasons, but it just felt so wrong. Then they try to pop up those hard elements out of nowhere and you just wonder where they've been all this cheery time.
Enterprise, yeah, B&B lost it. WTF, at least we had the Andorian episode.
-
B&B? And I still don't get the hate for Enterprise, at its very worst, it was better than the bad episodes of any of the other shows.
And you're right about Voyager. That whole Maquis/Federation thing basically disappeared after the first 2-3 episodes and only came back on occasion. It was a HUGE potential for them and they ignored it to give it a "Happy family" feeling. I actually liked Nelix, despite his overall uselessness, if only because he had one of the few good actors on the show. But Kim was by far the most useless character on any Star Trek ever. Tom really could have been written well, but wasn't, the indian guy that AndyDT loves so much was also written awfully as was just about everyone except the Doctor, he carried every single episode by himself.
However plot wise, the show actually had some insanely good episodes, but the poor crew really ruined it.
-
However plot wise, the show actually had some insanely good episodes, but the poor crew really ruined it.
Yeah, even thought the bright points of Voyager were few and far between, the select handful of times that show actually got it's shit together, it was a beautiful thing. The Killing Game is still one of the best Star Trek episodes ever, from any series. :metal
-
B&B? And I still don't get the hate for Enterprise, at its very worst, it was better than the bad episodes of any of the other shows.
And you're right about Voyager. That whole Maquis/Federation thing basically disappeared after the first 2-3 episodes and only came back on occasion. It was a HUGE potential for them and they ignored it to give it a "Happy family" feeling. I actually liked Nelix, despite his overall uselessness, if only because he had one of the few good actors on the show. But Kim was by far the most useless character on any Star Trek ever. Tom really could have been written well, but wasn't, the indian guy that AndyDT loves so much was also written awfully as was just about everyone except the Doctor, he carried every single episode by himself.
However plot wise, the show actually had some insanely good episodes, but the poor crew really ruined it.
Berman and Braga. The first season was downright boring. Even if every three or so episodes had been even good that would have been major improvement. Time war was not that welcome as an overreaching storyline, in my opinion. I'd rather have just had an origin story without the future coming into play throughout.
I have to agree with your opinions on Voyager, there.
-
Oddly enough the Time Wars thing was brought in by the studio or something, the writers/creators didn't want to do it. But the studio or whatever thought the show wasn't "futuristic" enough so they added the whole 30th century or whatever.
Also yea, the ending with Archer magically jumping back into his own time was just down right sloppy writing.
-
Pondering the Star Trek always starts off bad theory. I was looking over season 1 of TNG the other day when Andy started the survivor, and thought it was an even mixture of passable episodes and crap until it ended very strong. Four of the last seven episodes are very good. At quick glance, season two seems to be about the same quality wise, but the good episodes are distributed pretty evenly.
I actually don't hate the first two seasons of DS9 at all. Looking them over, though, they're certainly not strong. Season 1 has very little to offer. Season 2 has some good episodes, and it's where they start laying some groundwork for the rest of the series, but overall it's still average at best. After that, the show really turns bad ass.
I agree with most about Voyager. Some of the crew were interesting, and a helluva lot of them were awful. The Maquis thing was completely wasted. Just as bad in my opinion was the terrible bad guys in the first season. Those Kazon people really sucked pretty hard as villains. The Vidians were an interesting concept, but were mostly just creepy. The chick that defected was a problem as well. She was actually one to add some much needed tension, and they got rid of her. Furthermore, she was mostly annoying from the get-go. Betrayal by somebody that's already a twat has no impact, as opposed to getting screwed by a valued, liked and trusted companion. Add to that, Kes was both annoying and useless. Considering the effort they put into developing her and the fact that she was well liked among the crew, she should have been the one to sell them out. Regardless, once they replaced her with Catsuit-Girl, the show improved quality-wise.
Thus far, I'd say that they all started on a pretty low note and improved after the first season. TNG actually got rolling in the first season. Enterprise might well be the exception. I thought the first 2 seasons were generally pretty interesting, and it also felt like Star Trek. You got to see plenty of the the onset of what we got used to, weapons, transporter, tractor beams, etc. You were introduced to one or two of the older races. Some of the episodes were better than others, but rarely did they absolutely suck. Not bad, just rarely great. Season 3 was certainly better entertainment, and as pointed out the Xindi were an excellent concept, it just never actually felt like Star Trek to me. It was like any other sci-fi show on UPN, except not quite as good. From then on out they were just throwing out gimmicks trying to not be canceled. (And Worf's stance during Trials and Tribulations was fucking fantastic. I really hated that they had to go and screw that up with some silly story about genetic re-sequencing, or some garbage.) Personally, I'd say that it started off alright and tanked pretty hard towards the end.
-
I thought season 4 was mostly good.
I thought the idea of the xenophobes was great, although it was a bit rushed near the end. And the 2nd to last episode with T'breasts and Trip having to deal with the loss of their child was great. However the last episode, I will always hold as the worst episode to pretty much any show ever. It was pretty much a huge middle finger to everyone watching.
-
I thought Trip was dead by then. Anyway, I hated the whole subplot with Trip and the Vulcan chick.
-
I thought Trip was dead by then. Anyway, I hated the whole subplot with Trip and the Vulcan chick.
Why? It was built quite well I thought, it was a lot better than Sylar and Uhura in the new movie. They took several seasons to even begin to get into it properly.
But I have a feeling you and I look for very different things in Star Trek.
-
B&B? And I still don't get the hate for Enterprise, at its very worst, it was better than the bad episodes of any of the other shows.
And you're right about Voyager. That whole Maquis/Federation thing basically disappeared after the first 2-3 episodes and only came back on occasion. It was a HUGE potential for them and they ignored it to give it a "Happy family" feeling. I actually liked Nelix, despite his overall uselessness, if only because he had one of the few good actors on the show. But Kim was by far the most useless character on any Star Trek ever. Tom really could have been written well, but wasn't, the indian guy that AndyDT loves so much was also written awfully as was just about everyone except the Doctor, he carried every single episode by himself.
However plot wise, the show actually had some insanely good episodes, but the poor crew really ruined it.
I thought the Maquis thing would have been bigger but then I thought that it would be irrelevant and seem petty given that they could be/then were facing the Borg in this sector. The great thing about Voyager I thought was the fact they were in it together and so you had links like crew members coming back later on including Kes.
As I said I thought Chakotay added the spiritual angle that ST had so often lacked. Kira's wormhole seemed more religion-based than spiritual. The native American thing had been explored in a ST:TNG episode and I liked how they developed it and brought a precious culture into the 24th century and "far from the bones of his ancestors" as he said.
-
I thought season 4 was mostly good.
I thought the idea of the xenophobes was great, although it was a bit rushed near the end. And the 2nd to last episode with T'breasts and Trip having to deal with the loss of their child was great. However the last episode, I will always hold as the worst episode to pretty much any show ever. It was pretty much a huge middle finger to everyone watching.
What do you call the new movie then? Seems to me they're not just saying there's no more but to forget about everything.
-
Round 2: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=26967.0
-
The idea of Wesley Crusher probably looked good on paper, at least to some. It's the future, there's this whiz kid genius on board, the son of an officer and personal friend of the captain. The problem was the casting. Wil Wheaton did not have the demeanor to project a likeable geek. He just came across as a spoiled kid you want to slap multiple times. I've seen shows where the geek (and there can be only one) is great, everybody likes him, or at least respects him, and I've seen shows where you just want to thrash him soundly. Wesley falls into the second category. On the show itself, everybody liked him, which added to the confusion, because almost no fans did.
I don't think it was the casting, since, in real life, Wil Wheaton actually is a likable geek. I blame the writers.
-
I :heart Wil Wheaton, saw him speak at Phoenix Comicon. Hilarious, nice, awesome dude.
-
I :heart Wil Wheaton, saw him speak at Phoenix Comicon. Hilarious, nice, awesome dude.
Despised him on the show, like the rest of North America, but I realize that he got put into a fairly crappy situation and he certainly seems to have coped quite well, all things considered.
He was great as the news reporter in San Andreas.
-
Wil is reputed to hate his character, too.
-
I can't see how it's all the writers' fault. Most of the time, Wesley really is smarter than those around him, and he really does have good ideas which end up saving the ship, the planet below, whatever it is that needs saving. An actor with sufficient gravitas could deliver the necessary lines and make them work. The awe inspired in those around him would come across as legit. It was how he looked and carried himself that buried him.
The writers are guilty of one thing, and that's setting Wesley up. Wesley always had something to prove, because it was a given that "the boy" would be pretty useless, so it took a while for anyone to take him seriously, and he had confidence issues. So Wesley always ended up delivering his lines not as someone confident and respected, but as someone wishing others would believe him, begging them to give his idea a chance, and hoping beyond hope that it will work and he won't look like an idiot.
Later, once it was established that he really was a genius and his ideas worked, after he'd earned the respect of Geordi, Data and the others, he still came across as a know-it-all brat. But I still think that a better actor, or a better cast actor, could have made the part work. Not all know-it-alls are resented, not all geeks are shunned.
-
From https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley
Some of Wesley's The Wesley-ness is accidental: Six scripts had been drafted for the "Wesley saves the day" plot, with the intention that the best elements of each would be combined to make one character-focus episode on Wesley — none of them were especially good, but it was hoped that there would be enough good material between them to make a single episode. A writer's strike dried up the supply of scripts for the first season, so all six drafts were completed and produced, at which point Wesley's characterization was firmly entrenched.
-
lol TheWesley
-
I actually enjoyed the Wesley episodes with the Traveler.
-
The Traveller always seemed suspect to me.
-
You're just paranoid. Obviously if some guy with powers beyond our comprehension, including the ability to transcend time and space itself, comes to visit, he can only have our best interests in mind.
I love it when Riker asks him "Then why have we never heard of you?"
He gets this great look and smiles and says "Ah... what wonderful arrogance."
Anyway, Wesley did score some serious coolness points when he too became a transcendant being and took off with The Traveller. Still, I would have felt better if a chaperone went alone with them.
-
Wes appeared in Nemesis the full extended edition I think. I'm not sure how they explained his presence or if he said anything in the full movie or cut scenes. I have seen some cut scenes but it's not the whole set on the DVD.
-
Wes appeared in Nemesis the full extended edition I think. I'm not sure how they explained his presence or if he said anything in the full movie or cut scenes. I have seen some cut scenes but it's not the whole set on the DVD.
As far as I know they didn't explain it, he was just there. As a full officer if I remember correctly. Which is odd since he left starfleet.
-
That's probably why they cut the scene. Someone thought it would be cool have a cameo shot of him, and he'd be a full officer by now. Then someone else realized that that didn't make any sense, as he left to go surf the cosmos with The Traveller.
-
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/wesley.jpg)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/spock.jpg)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/primedirective.jpg)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/picardyeah.jpg)
-
:lol Especially love the first one.
-
I made this a while ago. Go forth and put it to good use:
(https://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/ddtonfire/WesleyFacepalm.jpg)
-
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/spock.jpg)
... is that top picture a shoop?
-
No, it was from the episode "Kirk's Dark Secret" which turned out to be a bit of a disappointment, TBH.
-
currently watching the wrath of khan
-
No, it was from the episode "Kirk's Dark Secret" which turned out to be a bit of a disappointment, TBH.
I tell you, if I was Shatner and had legs like that, I'd have been showing them off too. Not to mention his ballet technique. Look at that ankle angle!
And I thought Kirk's Dark Secret was a pretty good episode, even if it was a season 3 ep.
-
And I thought Kirk's Dark Secret was a pretty good episode, even if it was a season 3 ep.
I actually kind of felt bad for Chekhov.
-
No, it was from the episode "Kirk's Dark Secret" which turned out to be a bit of a disappointment, TBH.
There wasn't any such episode.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series_episodes#Season_3_.281968.E2.80.931969.29
-
How can you say that. He's already posted a screen-cap from it.
-
It truly takes a hardcore Star Trek nut to spot the hole in El Barto's clever ruse. Iron clad in almost every conceivable way. He had us all firmly believing.
-
No, it was from the episode "Kirk's Dark Secret" which turned out to be a bit of a disappointment, TBH.
There wasn't any such episode.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series_episodes#Season_3_.281968.E2.80.931969.29
My DVD set says otherwise.
-
Kirk's dark secret wasn't a great episode, I don't care how revolutionary it was. Sure it was cool when Spock briefly transcended his physical form, but it wasn't explored to the extent that it could have been. And to be completely honest, the ballet sequence discussed earlier was completely out of place. Why the hell would Scotty be doing traditional irish dance when he is scottish? It's like the writers completely forgot who the characters were.
-
Totally agree. It started with a great premise, but they just didn't follow through. That's why I consider it a disappointment.
-
:rollin
-
Totally agree. It started with a great premise, but they just didn't follow through. That's why I consider it a disappointment.
Did you buy the complete set on Blu Ray? It has deleted scenes to Kirks Dark Secret that kind of tie up a bit of loose ends, if you don't have it I'll try to sum up the differences.
1. Turns out the reason Spock couldn't comminucate with the dolphin was because the dolphin was deaf.....I'm not quite sure how that works, but it's better than nothing I guess.
2. Kirk actually was living with a french ballerina several weeks before the episode took place, and she happened to leave some of her stuff there when they broke up, so that explains why he had the dresses that he later on wore.
3. Spocks line in Vulcan that he said to McCoy that never got translated was "You complete me".
It helps, but still, maybe a B- episode in the end.
-
Watched the extras from the Wrath of Khan DVD special edition last night . . . man Montalban is so awesome.
-
Watched the extras from the Wrath of Khan DVD special edition last night . . . man Montalban is so awesome.
For some reason I feel obligated to respond….
The development of that movie has an interesting history, from the ashes of the abandoned Star Trek Phase 2 project, to the budget of ST:TMP that made the suits and the bean-counters cry, to the multiple screenwriters and scripts that no one liked, to Nimoy not wanting to be involved. It’s a testament to Harve Bennett and Nick Meyer that they were able to get the movie made at all.
That DVD has some great bonus features. It’s amazing to see all the effects being done with models on wires. Nick Meyer may be a pompous ass, but I love listening to him talk. He has such an engaging view of Trek that served the movie well. Somewhere along the way Roddenberry’s view of Trek got muddled. It’s a shame he got shut out of the films after ST:TMP, but history proves it was the right choice.
-
The Wrath of Khan is still my favorite Star Trek movie. Khan is one of the very few really excellent bad guys in the Star Trek universe. Intelligent and driven. Also, Star Trek II-III-IV form a great trilogy. I'm still waiting for the extended editions to be released on Blu-ray. My understanding is that the Blu-rays have only the theatrical releases.
-
Yeah. Kahn and First Contact in my opinion are the best.
-
Voyage Home is one of my personal favorites.
-
Yeah. Kahn and First Contact in my opinion are the best.
Yep. The second TOS movie and the second TNG movie both scored.
-
Drunk on tequila was the only time Troi was ever worth a damn. At the same time, though, the Borg Queen more than made up for crappy female characters.
-
Drunk on tequila was the only time Troi was ever worth a damn. At the same time, though, the Borg Queen more than made up for crappy female characters.
There used to be a TV trope called "Good Troi Episode."
I really did like a quote of hers in "Tapestry," though. And the episode about her sister was pretty intense.
Now Lwaxana is a completely different story. I both cringe at and thoroughly enjoy any episode she shows up in!
-
just watched in search of spock. it was alright, kinda boring. and i couldnt picture christopher lloyd as anything other than doc brown. even with the makeup
-
Yeah. Kahn and First Contact in my opinion are the best.
My personal favorite. I also enjoy The Undiscovered Country a whole lot, so that is my number two.
-
just watched in search of spock. it was alright, kinda boring. and i couldnt picture christopher lloyd as anything other than doc brown. even with the makeup
I can't recall the guy they had wanted for the role, but I thought Lloyd was a great choice. He was just so good playing a nutjob it is hard to see him as a Klingon warrior. More of a movie with great scenes than an overall great movie. Shatner described early drafts as more of their stumbling upon Spock, instead of actually searching for him. I am also old enough to remember the trailer for it showing the Enterprise getting ready to blow up, and was all "OMG the Enterprise! No!!!"
-
Voyage Home is one of my personal favorites.
Are you sure it isn't time for a colorful metaphor?
-
Voyage Home is one of my personal favorites.
Are you sure it isn't time for a colorful metaphor?
Double Dumb Ass On You!
-
What does it mean... "exact change"?
-
I think he did a little too much LDS.
-
I think he did a little too much LDS.
Who's Mormon?
-
I'm looking for the nuclear wesells.
-
My new supervisor is from Serbia and pronouces 'V' as a 'W'. It is awesome!
As long as we are talking original crew movies, what are everyone's thoughts on TMP?
-
My new supervisor is from Serbia and pronouces 'V' as a 'W'. It is awesome!
As long as we are talking original crew movies, what are everyone's thoughts on TMP?
It's not..............the worst movie ever or anything. But that's the best thing I can say about it.
-
I was told not to watch it because it's terrible.
With those expectations, it was slightly better than I expected.
But that's the best thing I can say about it.
-
TMP was excellent for its time. Star Trek was barely more than a cult TV show some fifteen years prior, and giving it the big-screen treatment was unheard-of. Nowadays it's done all the time, often to TV shows that are far less worthy, but in the 70's this was most definitely not the case.
And it was a true big-screen treatment. People marvelled at those long pans across the Enterprise hull, because we'd never seen it like that before. Not up close, not with that much detail. The movie gets slammed today because it takes a while to unfold and spends too much time on those beauty shots and cheesy special effects, but believe me, I was there; people ate it up at the time. Star Trek fans creamed their pants multiple times, right there in the theater, before it was over. Then they went out, bought another ticket, and watched it again.
One legitimate gripe is that there isn't much action. That's why STII: The Wrath of Khan made sure to amp it up. But TMP kicked off the movie series, and that series would not have continued if TMP had flopped.
-
I think the main issue with TMP is that it seemed like it was trying really hard to be 2001 and just lacking the substance or Kubrick that 2001 had.
-
Once they expanded it so that the plot actually made sense, I thought it was fine. The original theatrical release left out quite a bit about V'ger and that bald chick, leaving much of the story quite nonsensical. In fact, the bald chick was probably the biggest problem with the thing, even after the expanded version explained a bit more about her.
-
Once they expanded it so that the plot actually made sense, I thought it was fine. The original theatrical release left out quite a bit about V'ger and that bald chick, leaving much of the story quite nonsensical. In fact, the bald chick was probably the biggest problem with the thing, even after the expanded version explained a bit more about her.
Why do you hate bald people? And is this why you dislike TNG so much?
-
Once they expanded it so that the plot actually made sense, I thought it was fine. The original theatrical release left out quite a bit about V'ger and that bald chick, leaving much of the story quite nonsensical. In fact, the bald chick was probably the biggest problem with the thing, even after the expanded version explained a bit more about her.
Glad I skipped right to the director's cut then. The story made sense to me, it was just slow paced and kind of boring. But I love ST 2,3,4 and 6, so it's not just because of lack of "action".
(I'm not including TNG movies here, but I like those too)
-
Star Trek has always needed a good mixture of action, humor and drama. However beyond those, it always needs characters that make you invested in the story. In TMP I couldn't find any action, any humor, any real drama or any concern for the characters.
-
Once they expanded it so that the plot actually made sense, I thought it was fine. The original theatrical release left out quite a bit about V'ger and that bald chick, leaving much of the story quite nonsensical. In fact, the bald chick was probably the biggest problem with the thing, even after the expanded version explained a bit more about her.
Why do you hate bald people? And is this why you dislike TNG so much?
Nothing against bald people in general (slowly joining their ranks, in fact). I'm not into bald women, though. Long hair on chicks--FTW.
And Picard was one of the few characters on TNG I liked. He was certainly no Kirk, but at least he had some depth. Still, my dislike of TNG isn't based on individual characters so much as the collective group.
-
Star Trek has always needed a good mixture of action, humor and drama. However beyond those, it always needs characters that make you invested in the story. In TMP I couldn't find any action, any humor, any real drama or any concern for the characters.
They had to spend a certain amount of time re-introducing each character (which I actually liked) and explaining what they'd been doing for 15 years. I still think that could've worked if they'd stuck with just the original cast. It was the introduction of two new characters, the importance placed on them, and us having no reason to give a shit about them, that was the problem.
Spock's struggle to find his "humanity" and how it paralleled that of V'ger should have been the focus. A secondary plot with another main character would've been fine. But the crap with Decker and Ilia did nothing for me. The "new" Klingons were cool, but they were gone in the first five minutes. The action component could've been satisfied by them showing up later and trying to intercept the Enterprise or something. Sure, it would've been a pointless battle literally to satisfy the action quota, but it could've worked.
-
Lack of action didn't trouble me at all. Spock in the jetpack was pretty dull, though. As for the new characters, like I already said, I didn't care for the bald chick. The Decker story was a good addition, though. A foil for Kirk and a source of tension when Spock wasn't there to annoy McCoy.
-
Ha ha, okay I can see that.
-
Star Trek has always needed a good mixture of action, humor and drama. However beyond those, it always needs characters that make you invested in the story. In TMP I couldn't find any action, any humor, any real drama or any concern for the characters.
That's as good of a synopsis as I can think of. The original story was conceived by Roddenberry, who at that time seemed more in to larger abstract issues, like our relationship with God, are search for meaning, and lost track of some of those things Adami mentioned that made Trek great. But he was always an idea man, not a good screenwriter (Hi, George Lucas). Gene Coon and the other TV writers helped flesh out the characters and subtexts that TMP was lacking.
And they were totally under the gun with filming and special effects that the editing suffered.
-
Wait, what, people hated that episode?
Ever get caught off guard when you find out common opinions of an episode? A couple from DS9 I didn't realize were apparently hated.
Prodigal Daughter: I thought it was a highlight of season 7, what was wrong with it? Mild convolution of a connection between O'brien and Ezri Dax, but that doesn't wreck an episode.
The Storyteller: I don't recall hating this episode when it first aired, I think I originally thought of it as somewhat likable. The premise was always hard to buy, but that's the unfortunate side effect of doing adaptations of other stories. Going back, though, it's one of the season 1 episodes I really like to watch. Seeing O'brien and Bashir early on is hilarious in the context of the entire show. Big retroactive bump in any rating I would do of it, but I guess others don't agree.
-
Once they expanded it so that the plot actually made sense, I thought it was fine. The original theatrical release left out quite a bit about V'ger and that bald chick, leaving much of the story quite nonsensical. In fact, the bald chick was probably the biggest problem with the thing, even after the expanded version explained a bit more about her.
Glad I skipped right to the director's cut then. The story made sense to me, it was just slow paced and kind of boring. But I love ST 2,3,4 and 6, so it's not just because of lack of "action".
(I'm not including TNG movies here, but I like those too)
The god of Sha-ka-ree would never say that.
-
I must be the only one who doesn't hate on Star Trek V: The Search for God, or Someone Claiming to Be Him.
The special effects were bad. I don't care. It's the story that matters, and I thought the return to a story which was more like an extended TOS episode was great after all the epic-craziness. It starts with a Vulcan, a full-blooded Vulcan, laughing his ass off. We get more Spock family history, and even some other family histories. We get Kirk being a badass and standing toe-to-toe (kinda) with a being of obviously great power because, dammit, whoever or whatever it is is not what it claims to be! Don't lie to Kirk and tell him you need his ship. "Why does God need a spaceship?" was a perfectly logical question, and people thought it was stupid that he asked it. Why?
STV isn't quite up there with II-III-IV, but I'd watch it before sitting through TMP, VI, or Generations again.
-
I must be the only one who doesn't hate on Star Trek V: The Search for God, or Someone Claiming to Be Him.
I was going to bring up ST:V. I thought it had some good scenes, but ultimately feel short of the ‘adventure’ that a Trek film should have; makes me feel maybe it would have been a better idea for a TV episode than a big screen film. The scene where Sybok shows McCoy and Spock their pain is a top Trek moment. You can see them feel their pain, and yet they tell Sybok they are standing with their captain. Awesome.
Otherwise, I recall very little from that film. Probably means there wasn’t much worth remembering.
Orbert, I am a big fan of VI, I am curious why you'd rank it below V, as that seems to be a minority opinion among fans and critics.
-
Orbert, I am a big fan of VI, I am curious why you'd rank it below V, as that seems to be a minority opinion among fans and critics.
Indeed. This is a position I don't think I've ever heard before.
-
Ah, I thought that what I said might be interpreted that way. And looking at it now, I can see why. I wouldn't rank V over VI. It's just that everyone hates V, so they never show it on TV or cable, whereas I've seen VI many, many times. I'd rather see V again sometime than watch VI for the 20th time. Or TMP for the 10th time. That's what I meant. I don't consider V superior to VI, I just don't rank it as far below VI as everyone else seems to.
As I mentioned, one of the things that you consider a shortcoming is something I consider a nice change of pace. It doesn't have the broad epic scale that the other films do; it feels more like an extended TV episode. But after the unofficial II-III-IV trilogy, I liked that it went a different direction and is basically a standalone story.
And I like the story told in V. Most of us have something in our past that we will never escape, and it hangs over us. Maybe we don't think of it every day, but every once in a while, if we had to honestly ask ourselves "Am I happy? Completely, 100% happy?" the answer would be "No" because of that one thing. What if someone could take that away? What would that be worth? And what if someone told you that God is real, that he's actually met Him and talked with Him, just as the prophets of old did? And what if he told you that he'd actually take you to see Him? Now how much would you pay? You've got a starship? Even better, let's go!
I guess it's because the story in V resonates with me personally. I dig it. And I like that it's more of a thinker than an action movie. Again, the TV series mixed things up, but the movies all seem to need to be huge and action-packed. I don't see that as necessarily required. V is a thinker, maybe in a similar way that TMP is a thinker, and I'm okay with that.
-
I agree with everything Orbert said about V.
-
Yeah, I like V too.
I will fully agree with anyone that says it's not a good movie, but it has a very neat concept and a sense of fun about it that makes it hard to not like. It's not exactly a B-Movie, but it's campy and it doesn't quite take itself 100% seriously. Plus, it's imminently quotable.
Yeah, I'd definitely rather watch V than TMP again and maybe even III too.
-
Guess what's coming to blu-ray next year?
https://www.movieweb.com/news/star-trek-the-next-generation-blu-ray-trailer
Never owned the DVDs so I may consider picking these up
-
The big holdup with getting TNG to HD has always been that the special effects (phasers, etc.) were all done post-production at standard def and that's what they have on video tape. Going back to the original film elements and transferring to HD was not a big deal, but re-rendering all the effects represented a huge undertaking. Apparently Paramount has decided to dive into it.
My guess is that they'll release this "teaser" to test the waters. If sales are good enough, they'll go ahead and do the first season, then sales of each season will fund the work on subsequent seasons, or something like that. If at some point they don't make their money back or pull in enough to keep going, they'll stop. That would suck. I'd hate to get a few seasons into it, then they stop producing them (it has happened to some shows), especially since most of the really good stuff came later.
-
I don't think they'll stop unless it really tanks. This undertaking is kind of necessary for the continued syndication of the show, so it's a long term investment. But I think you're spot on that this is testing the waters before they get too far into it. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
-
As long as they don't add CGI alien creatures wandering around in the background, or have Worf shoot second.
-
As long as they don't add CGI alien creatures wandering around in the background, or have Worf shoot second.
Considering the huge undertaking it is just to rescan and composite the entire 7 seasons from scratch, I'm not expecting a lot of extra unnecessary stuff, because it's only going to add to the cost/time factor. TNG did have a few creatures/beings that were already CG, and those will have to be redone, but I don't think we'll see much changed with the live action stuff. I would expect redone planet shots and maybe some spaceships, but I actually wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being more faithful than TOS-R.
-
Totally agree. I was making a bad joke/reference to Lucas. I expect much more from Paramount.
-
Don't worry, I got the reference, I figured it was still a legitimate concern considering that TOS got some fairly big changes. They probably don't have the budget to digitally replace Wesley Crusher with someone else like we'd all hoped anyway.
-
I can only think of one thing that really didn't work with the TOS remasters. None of the new ships or planets bothered me. None of the improved explosions or special effects bothered me. Mostly they never touched the actual themes, ideas or stories. The one exception was The Ultimate Computer, where they CGI'ed lots of exciting, gee-whiz space fighting with the other ships. The original with the 4, then 3, then 2 ships flying in that blocky formation was much more dramatic, I thought.
-
TOS got some fairly big changes.
I didn't realize that. I love TOS, but I rarely buy TV shows on disc. I just wouldn't rewatch them enough to warrant the cost, so I'd never investigated it.
-
TOS got some fairly big changes.
I didn't realize that. I love TOS, but I rarely buy TV shows on disc. I just wouldn't rewatch them enough to warrant the cost, so I'd never investigated it.
Well it depends on what you consider big changes. I'm not a purist, and I've never really seen the original episodes, so they don't bother me much overall.
But every space shot is replaced with CG, they've changed or replaced a lot of establishing shots of "planets", and added some other effects here and there. If you've seen them on TV any time recently though, they'd be the new updated versions. There aren't any George Lucas moments that I'm aware of, but if you're used to seeing them a certain way, there are differences and changes that some people have taken issue with.
-
Makes sense. Thanks for the info. I probably will rent them sometime.
-
They probably don't have the budget to digitally replace Wesley Crusher with someone else like we'd all hoped anyway.
:lol
-
about to watch star trek generations. not too excited though cause Bones isnt in it, and he is definitely my favorite ST character
-
Generations is great if you delete the middle 1/3.
-
I love Generations, it was a huge spectacle in the cinema.
It's exciting, it looks great and has really moody music.
It's certainly a lot better than the tv movie that was Insurrection.
-
Which is everyone's favourite Enterprise design ?
I think the Motion Picture Enterprise is not only the best looking Enterprise but the best looking spaceship in anything ever.
https://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/d/df/USS_Enterprise-A_quarter.jpg
Enterprise 2009 also looked cool and retro with it's almost 1950's stylings
https://img.trekmovie.com/images/fanmade/enterprise_wall10_1920.jpg
Then Enterprise B for being a cooler looking Excelsior.
https://culttvman.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/jluisentb001.jpg
I just never liked the look of Enterprise D - too fat - too curvy. And Enterprise C was just :facepalm:
Enterprise C : :angry: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7jZdTjX63Qc/TmIdhTDjWJI/AAAAAAAAI2o/zfkSfmNUtrc/s1600/enterprise+C.jpg
-
The original Enterprise / refit looked good.
The Enterprise B / Excelsior is an ugly dog that should be taken out and shot.
The Enterprise C is kind of stodgy and a rush job, so I mostly ignore it, but the recent finished Probert design is quite nice - https://bruce-domain.blogspot.com/2011/03/proberts-design-for-ambassador-class.html
The Enterprise D is really great from certain angles, but from other angles is stumpy looking, but I'm glad they did something original instead of just adding a speed stripe to the TOS model.
The Enterprise E is a sexy beast.
The Trek XI Enterprise is quite good, although the proportions are a bit weird. But I like most of the design changes. I love the chunky nacelles.
-
I forgot about Enterprise E - she was criminally underused !!
Much better design than the Galaxy Class .
-
Enterprise D. She's the perfect marriage of form and function.
-
^ She isn't as elegant as The Refit Connie or even Enterprise E. D is just bulbous and as a bit too "futuristic space vessel" for me.
-
That's ok. You'll never convince me.
-
^ She isn't as elegant as The Refit Connie or even Enterprise E. D is just bulbous and as a bit too "futuristic space vessel" for me.
It is, in fact, a futuristic space vessel.
-
No shit.
I meant it's too obviously sci-fi spaceship looking. Too Cliche. Just all curves and lights.
-
Just all curves and lights.
*drools*
That's how I like my women, too.
-
Just all curves and lights.
*drools*
That's how I like my women, too.
:metal
-
Lights. . . . . . :justjen Hmmmmmm......
-
(https://www.fast-rewind.com/pix/topsecret2.jpg)
-
No shit.
I meant it's too obviously sci-fi spaceship looking. Too Cliche. Just all curves and lights.
Apple ship?
-
It was an apple ship......
But they ejected the core... :hat
-
I don't have time to read through this entire thread so I'm sorry if this has been asked before.
At the end of Star Trek Generations when Picard buries Kirk, I always thought it was rather odd that they chose to memorialize his death in that manner. Is it because Kirk always knew that he would die alone and they chose to characterize his memorial that way?
-
Something like that. The whole premise of "Generations" -- something tantamount to time travel, but using "the nexus" -- creates a ton of logistical problems. James T. Kirk is a legend. Captain of the flagship for years, promoted to Admiral, busted back to Captain and thus the captain of the flagship again, then in a bizarro event he is "killed". Gone.
But it turns out he's not killed, he's just in "the nexus", and 80some years later, Picard convinces him to leave it so he can help make a difference again. Except they don't really tell anyone. There's no press release, no celebration honoring the return of a legend, they just go off and fight Soran. So when Kirk dies, actually dies this time, what are they gonna do? He's been "dead" for... generations. What can Picard do? Tell everyone that Kirk wasn't really dead all this time, but, um, sorry he actually is now?
Kirk always said he knew he'd died alone. He wasn't quite alone; Picard was there, but basically yeah, no one else around, and no real memorial. It was weird how it played out, but my guess is that you're not really supposed to think about it. Which is lame, but there you go.
-
So when Kirk dies, actually dies this time, what are they gonna do? He's been "dead" for... generations. What can Picard do? Tell everyone that Kirk wasn't really dead all this time, but, um, sorry he actually is now?
That was what I was thinking. Also, did Piccard even know that he was going to rescued any time soon? I don't recall, but it's possible that he buried him out of practicality, and then just didn't bother to tell anybody.
-
I always thought it was kinda sad that Soran just wanted to be happy for eternity.
I always imagined that he is still in the nexus and Picard and Kirk were in n alternative reality and Picard is still living in that existence to this day.
Plus Guinan is still in the nexus despite being "rescued" by the Enterprise B.
-
It is kinda sad. I mean, yeah he's still an evil dude because he's willing to kill and/or massively inconvenience countless people just so he can be happy forever, but I have a lot of trouble with the story for Generations in the first place. I realize that Paramount really, really wanted a movie that tied the two series together and passed the torch to TNG, but this was the best they could come up with?
-
I don't have time to read through this entire thread so I'm sorry if this has been asked before.
At the end of Star Trek Generations when Picard buries Kirk, I always thought it was rather odd that they chose to memorialize his death in that manner. Is it because Kirk always knew that he would die alone and they chose to characterize his memorial that way?
Because that whole movie is just one giant plot hole?
-
Something like that. The whole premise of "Generations" -- something tantamount to time travel, but using "the nexus" -- creates a ton of logistical problems. James T. Kirk is a legend. Captain of the flagship for years, promoted to Admiral, busted back to Captain and thus the captain of the flagship again, then in a bizarro event he is "killed". Gone.
But it turns out he's not killed, he's just in "the nexus", and 80some years later, Picard convinces him to leave it so he can help make a difference again. Except they don't really tell anyone. There's no press release, no celebration honoring the return of a legend, they just go off and fight Soran. So when Kirk dies, actually dies this time, what are they gonna do? He's been "dead" for... generations. What can Picard do? Tell everyone that Kirk wasn't really dead all this time, but, um, sorry he actually is now?
Kirk always said he knew he'd died alone. He wasn't quite alone; Picard was there, but basically yeah, no one else around, and no real memorial. It was weird how it played out, but my guess is that you're not really supposed to think about it. Which is lame, but there you go.
That's a good explanation. I never really factored that in, but the ending didn't sit well with me. You're right though, what else could they have done considering the circumstances? It was bizzare.
-
Diana Troy = :tup
-
In terms of best Enterprise, the juiced-up ship that Will Riker commands in the final episode is pretty awesome.
rumborak
-
The one that can go Warp 13? Yeah, that was pretty cool. I love that shot where it comes up the Z-axis blasting holes through the hull of the other ship. IMO there weren't nearly enough scenes that underscored how everything takes places in three dimensions (since it's "outer space" after all), despite Spock mentioning that very thing way back in STII.
Also, I did kinda laugh the first time I saw that scene, when they go to Warp 13. All I could think was "Mr. Data, turn it up to 11!"
-
The one that can go Warp 13? Yeah, that was pretty cool. I love that shot where it comes up the Z-axis blasting holes through the hull of the other ship. IMO there weren't nearly enough scenes that underscored how everything takes places in three dimensions (since it's "outer space" after all), despite Spock mentioning that very thing way back in STII.
Also, I did kinda laugh the first time I saw that scene, when they go to Warp 13. All I could think was "Mr. Data, turn it up to 11!"
This. And the ships always went "forward". The Borg Cube is as "aerodynamic" as Enterprise - E in space. :P
-
Speaking of Diana Troy I saw Marina Sirtis in Hooligans 2, which is one of the most horrible movies I have ever seen.
-
Speaking of Diana Troy I saw Marina Sirtis in Hooligans 2, which is one of the most horrible movies I have ever seen.
I saw her get gang-raped in Death Wish 3, which almost (but not quite) makes up for that whole Deanna Troi thing.
-
For anyone that hasn't seen it, "The Captains" is streaming on Netflix.
Awesome documentary written and directed by the Shat; a must-see for any serious Trekker.
-
The one that can go Warp 13? Yeah, that was pretty cool. I love that shot where it comes up the Z-axis blasting holes through the hull of the other ship. IMO there weren't nearly enough scenes that underscored how everything takes places in three dimensions (since it's "outer space" after all), despite Spock mentioning that very thing way back in STII.
Also, I did kinda laugh the first time I saw that scene, when they go to Warp 13. All I could think was "Mr. Data, turn it up to 11!"
This. And the ships always went "forward". The Borg Cube is as "aerodynamic" as Enterprise - E in space. :P
Not quite, there is matter in space, and it's more dense in some areas than others. It's part of why no true perfect orbit can be obtained by a satellite. No matter how well placed they are, they need thrusters, and occasional lifts by other crafts, to stay in place.
The other argument for sleek, directional design is related to the engines. Using them would exert great force over the entire structure of the ship, it makes sense to build ships which can withstand that strain easiest. Pushing in a specific direction would accomplish that.
-
For anyone that hasn't seen it, "The Captains" is streaming on Netflix.
Awesome documentary written and directed by the Shat; a must-see for any serious Trekker.
I watched it a little bit ago, I didn't like it. It could've been great but shatner loves himself.
Also, Avery Brooks is one weird dude.
-
So I'm watching this right now (downloaded it, gotta love the internet speed in Tokyo :lol), but yeah, you're totally right. Shatner pretends to interview the guys; but in the end he's only letting them set up the cue lines so he can talk about himself. I'm always just waiting for him to get off the soap box, so that the other guys can talk.
And man, yeah, Avery Brooks is one space cadet. Really amazes me that a guy who's so spaced out can deliver such intense acting performances. What's hilarious though in those "jazz singing" sessions of theirs is how bland Shatner's lines are. Brooks has a sense of art that Shatner completely lacks.
rumborak
-
Brooks is a tenured professor (of arts), he's allowed to be a little nutty.
-
So I'm watching this right now (downloaded it, gotta love the internet speed in Tokyo :lol), but yeah, you're totally right. Shatner pretends to interview the guys; but in the end he's only letting them set up the cue lines so he can talk about himself. I'm always just waiting for him to get off the soap box, so that the other guys can talk.
It's been a while since I've seen it, but I didn't get that feeling. It always felt like, to me, that Shatner was drawing on his personal experience to relate to the interviewee's story.
Being the center of attention his whole life, I'm not sure Shatner has the ability to completely understand someone else's story without relating it to himself. I do not think this is an ego issue, I just think it's the product of his life's experiences.
-
He may of meant well with it, and I'm sure he did, but it really came off as "Patrick, tell me how awesome I am"
-
Guess I'll watch that tonight and begin rewatching Deep Space 9 as well. I'm excited. :caffeine:
Also, I decided to watch the Enterprise finale after rewatching "The Pegasus" and remembered hearing that the episode was used as a framing device for the Enterprise finale...my God that was terrible.
Entire episode: OMG ARCHER HAS TO WRITE A SPEECH!
End of episode:
Archer: Here's my speech guys! It starts like-
Riker: COMPUTER QUICK END PROGRAM!
:facepalm:
-
Sky, that's what happens when your series is canceled mid season and the rush to write a finally happens.
-
It was just so jarring seeing some moments that were supposed to be emotional or something, and then BOOM, there's old-but-supposed-to-be-young Riker, just creepily looking at them.
-
Also, I decided to watch the Enterprise finale after rewatching "The Pegasus" and remembered hearing that the episode was used as a framing device for the Enterprise finale...my God that was terrible.
Entire episode: OMG ARCHER HAS TO WRITE A SPEECH!
End of episode:
Archer: Here's my speech guys! It starts like-
Riker: COMPUTER QUICK END PROGRAM!
:facepalm:
If that's the worst you can say about it, then you've done pretty well. :lol
I quite liked Enterprise, and I kept hearing about how bad that final episode was, and in the past I found these kinds of opinions to be exaggerated, but that episode really was that bad.
And this is from a guy who loved Spock's Brain. :lol
-
One of my favorite Enterprise designs is a concept image done in 1978 that could be considered the first of Enterprise D. It's almost as if the Enterprise was built in the Star Wars universe. Refine the nacelles just a bit and it is a really cool design, I think.
(https://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l547/unklejman/enterprise_1978.jpg)
-
It looks like a flying pancake.
-
Well yeah. A mutherfockin' warp-speed flying pancake!
-
I like it.
I just watched Trials and Tribble-ations today. Only episode of DS9 I've ever actually seen, and it's pretty obvious why I chose that as a random one. :hat
Was pretty good.
-
That was the best series-crossing mashup of the ones I've seen. I wasn't a regular DS9 fan either, but a friend of mine who is said that I had to watch it. She knew I was into TOS, and knew Worf from TNG and some of the other characters, so yeah it worked really well.
My favorite visual joke: In the TOS episode, after they've popped open that overhead storage bin (which is a completely stupid design) and the tribbles all pour out of it, eventually it trickles down to a few dropping every second or two. It literally looks likes there's someone up there tossing them tossing down, which adds to the comedy. In the crossover, we see that that's exactly what's happening, except that it's the DS9 guys up there tossing them down!
-
Yeah, I thought that was a neat tie-in too. I was pausing it regularly to check the original TOS episode to compare certain things. Some of the shots were excellently done, and it fitted together nicely.
And you can be sure that when they originally filmed it, there was just a guy up there tossing them down. :lol
-
A. Dax looked hot as hell in the skirt. B. O'Brien thinking Kirk's stand in was him was a real gas. "Let's buy him a drink!"
-
Yes indeedy she looked hot. A lot more flattering than the old Starfleet potato sacks they usually wear, that's for sure.
-
In total agreement about Dax's legs.
-
It was interesting to listen to Rick Berman about how difficult it was to cast the role of Jadzia Dax, because no hot actress wants to do TV shows, they all want to do movies.
rumborak
-
That's interesting. I recall that Jeri Ryan (7 of 9) turned down the role several times before finally agreeing to do Voyager. Might be the same issue. I would think that maybe the curse of scifi typecasting might factor in too.
-
Interesting irony, I'm watching Moby Dick with Patrick Stewart as Captain Ahab. The movie came out 1998, two years after First Contact came out, where he gets accused of acting like Captain Ahab.
rumborak
-
Yeah, Melville was a hack, stealing from the Star Trek like that. Two years, and he didn't think anyone was gonna notice?
(Actually I totally hate Melville, and will rag on him, unprovoked, with or without proper cause.)
-
Moby Dick could be miles better in an abridged version, with all that crap about whales taken out. It's like the songs in LOTR, where you just start skipping them.
rumborak
-
I started skipping the songs in LOTR as well. It wasn't until later that I learned a bit more about JRRT and his background in culture and linguistics study, and how he used LOTR largely as an experiment in creating and studying language. Next time I read LOTR, I specifically took the time to read through every line of each song, and tried to pay more attention to the different languages as well. I tried to think of the songs in terms of culture and how it evolves over time and tried to see how they functioned as they do in actual cultures. They help with the preservation of language, while simultaneously underscoring how it has changed. Summary: It was still tedious, but at least I had a better appreciation for their place in the books.
As for Melville, oh dear lord that was painful. An entire chapter on the left side of the whale, titled "The Left Side of the Whale". Then an entire chapter on the right side of the whale, titled "The Right Side of the Whale". Then a chapter on the flukes of the whale, titled "The Flukes of the Whale". And more. I don't know if I have the order or titles exactly correct, but those of you who have sufferred through Moby Dick on paper know that I am not exaggerating. My 10th grade American Literature teacher, who otherwise was a great guy and one of my favorite teachers (he's the one who turned me on to Tull, early Kansas, etc.) assigned this book, and I'm pretty sure no one actually read the whole thing. It just isn't possible for a 15-year-old mind to force itself to endure that kind of pain, not when Cliff's Notes are sold in the bookstore down the street.
Between that and Bartleby the Scrivener, I have great respect for what Melville tried to do, but little for the results.
-
Germany has only just shown Patterns of Force:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057908/Germans-boldy-Nazi-Star-Trek-episode-43-years-filmed.html
-
Yeah, I thought I read a long time ago that that one episode was banned, for (presumably) obvious reasons. Star Trek laid on the political allegory pretty thick sometimes, but this one was different. The message seemed to be "But this same approach, used with benevolent intentions, could be really cool." People still couldn't believe that it was anything but Nazi-slamming, and I thought that was unfair. But I'm not from Germany, or anywhere in Europe for that matter, so I don't know what it's like growing up with that particular historical issue to deal with.
-
The problem, in my opinion, was the clumsy and almost belittling portrayal of Nazi Germany in the episode. I love Star Trek, but in essence they banned an absolute shit episode, so nobody lost anything.
rumborak
-
I guess nothing about that episode stood out enough for me to remember anything about it. I'm not sure how the portrayal of Nazi Germany in Star Trek could have gone any deeper, though, being in the late sixties. There were many more people in '67 that would be offended/horrified just by seeing a swastika than there are now.
-
From what I remember of the episode, you had the impression the writer had at best a fleeting idea of what went down in Nazi Germany, and was somewhat enamored with the uniforms and organization of it.
I'm tempted to download it, hmm.
rumborak
-
I remember it being a fun episode. While the comparison was blatant, it really didn't delve that deeply into the idea. I thought it was a fun episode, but I mostly enjoy TOS for the hilarity anyway.
-
Guess I'll watch that tonight and begin rewatching Deep Space 9 as well. I'm excited. :caffeine:
I'm finishing up a re-watch of DS9. I'd seen it when it aired and later all in a straight shot so did things differently this time. I pieced together the connected story lines over the seasons and watched them together. Stringing by secondary characters is a really nice way to begin. The Garak string was so full of awesomeness! :lol I mixed in major story episodes and various favourites, but once I completed the arcs I started with season 7 and watched the remaining episodes backwards. I'm done with 2-7 and and working through 1, now. The progressions of Bashir and Rom are really cool backwards.
I met Nicole de Boer, Nana Visitor, and James Darren 2 months ago, all three were wonderful to talk to. They seemed so appreciative. Nicole de Boer and Sean Patrick Flanery were funny, they both pointed each other to make sure I saw the other (big Dead Zone fan).
-
I met Nicole de Boer, Nana Visitor, and James Darren 2 months ago, all three were wonderful to talk to. They seemed so appreciative. Nicole de Boer and Sean Patrick Flanery were funny, they both pointed each other to make sure I saw the other (big Dead Zone fan).
2 months ago..were you at Dragon*Con? I know Nana Visitor and Nicole de Boer were there, but I didn't talk to them because I feel bad about not knowing them from anywhere but Star Trek and had a feeling that they must be annoyed by now only being known from Star Trek. I might be completely wrong but I can be a bit starstruck around famous people :P
-
Yeah, Dragon'Con, it was my wife's spur of the moment present to me for the work I did during my daughter's first 6 weeks. She saw me trying not to cry during What You Leave Behind and decided I could buy the the last two DS9 dvd's and go to Dragon'Con. :lol I was so tired and so many things going on I started to cry when I walked up to Nana Visitor, too. :lol She was great about it, though, and chatted quite a bit. I actually felt guilty about taking her time. Nicole de Boer was fantastic, too, but Dead Zone and DS9 are my two favourite shows, so I think I piqued her interest. Next time just go up, they were extremely welcoming to me.
edit: I was a little surprised at how much bigger the lines were for TNG! Gates McFadden had a huge line, but Visitor and de Boer very small. Is it because they did movies or because they were a more accessible show to more general audiences?
-
Are you really surprised my that? TNG was an iconic show of the late 80s/early 90s. I don't think you'll find many people who've never heard of Captain Picard.
Whereas only a few select will know Benjamin Sisko. Let alone Major Kira, or even more obscure, Ezri Dax.
rumborak
-
I was not surprised the lines were longer, but that they were far longer. The waits for every TNG guest were long, but I could pretty much walk up to the DS9 cast.
-
Very cool Yorost! I met Brent Spiner just because I've seen him in a few other movies and the TNG panel with him, Gates, and Wil Wheaton was hilarious and awesome. Same with Wil Wheaton (plus his appearances in BBT and The Guild). If I get to go back I'll just talk to whoever I recognize. :P
I think I had to miss the DS9 panel for something, unfortunately.
Also, I finished watching the Captains...and I have to agree with the general sentiment that Shatner was just using the interviews as a way to talk about HIS experiences and not giving the actors enough time with their stories. And that Avery Brooks has a much better talent for improvising lyrics/singing than Shatner. He sure is a nutty guy and it makes me like him even more, even though I wanted to hear more about his time on the show...
-
Watched the TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" last night. I remember liking it when I was younger, and it seems to be generally well-regarded, but after seeing it again it seemed more like a steaming pile. For one thing, this is one of the few episodes where I did not like Shatner's acting (seemed totally phoned-in). More importantly, there was no sense of menace or danger whatsoever from the Klingons. Many other minor things bugged me, like 3 different pronounciations of the word "Klingon" and a lot the scenes seemed farce-like. I realize it's supposed to be a light, funny episode but it kind of detracts from the overall serious nature of the series IMO.
-
Ok, I am now thoroughly convinced that the makeup department on Trek had bets on who could get the facial prosthetics to most closely resemble genitals and get it on TV. There is just no other excuse.
(https://www.kontinuum.cz/databaze/postavy/1586_3.jpg)
-
:lol
-
Really, I thought I had seen Trek's most blatant face-crotch, but clit-face here takes the cake.
-
I'm trying to remember that episode. Is that the one where that dude comes over to steal Jadzia's host?
-
Really, I thought I had seen Trek's most blatant face-crotch, but clit-face here takes the cake.
Wow. What was the predecessor?
-
I'm trying to remember that episode. Is that the one where that dude comes over to steal Jadzia's host?
Yep, that's the one. It's called "Invasive Procedures". I just finished watching it, and just had to post that. I wish I'd done the same thing with my watch through of Voyager, because that had some good ones too.
@El Barto - I wish I'd been keeping track, but I couldn't name an episode off the top of my head.
-
I'd really like to stroke that face if she had a migraine.
-
Here is another contender from the Voyager episode "Resistance".
(https://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060228223912/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a6/Darod.jpg)
edit: a challenger appears courtesy of Voyager's "Sacred Ground"
(https://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051002155449/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/8/8e/Nechisti_guide.jpg/566px-Nechisti_guide.jpg)
edit: And this guy looks a little concerned with the vag on his face, from "Darkling"
(https://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050814084836/memoryalpha/en/images/c/c3/Zahir.jpg)
edit: And Think Tank brings us Jason Alexander's vag face. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080501001515/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/1/16/Kurros.jpg/508px-Kurros.jpg)
edit: Blink of an Eye shows us that vag face can leave some people feeling........ lost
(https://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050818220627/memoryalpha/en/images/d/d3/Gotana-Retz.jpg)
edit: "Live Fast and Prosper" indeed............
(https://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050905160556/memoryalpha/en/images/0/06/Dala_starfleet_uniform.jpg)
edit: This lady apparently had some trouble containing her laughter at the toothed genitals upon her face
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060319212933/memoryalpha/en/images/f/f2/Tanis_actress.jpg)
edit: Critical Care brings us this not so happy clit face camper.
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070730151126/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/f/f4/Chellick.jpg/540px-Chellick.jpg)
also, please tell me these are showing up :lol
-
they are :lol
-
One thing I've noticed now that I'm older and I'm watching through DS9, its that if they need a new alien, the makeup crew comes up with some funky prosthetic ridges and calls it a day. :P Pretty forgettable. Though that sequence of vag-faces was pretty hilarious. :rollin
-
On the old Usenet boards, the Star Trek group always had regular reviews of the various shows when they were running. Many were the references to the "forehead aliens of the week" especially on DS9 and Voyager. You need a new alien species, put something on their foreheads. There, new species.
-
:o how did I never notice genital faces before
-
The epitome of laziness is that they just resorted to nose-bridge prosthetics I find. While that was alright for TOS in the case of Vulcans because of budget constraints for a recurring character, a show like Voyager really had no excuse. Other than just pointing to TOS and saying "they did it, and that's good enough for us!"
rumborak
-
The epitome of laziness is that they just resorted to nose-bridge prosthetics I find. While that was alright for TOS in the case of Vulcans because of budget constraints for a recurring character, a show like Voyager really had no excuse. Other than just pointing to TOS and saying "they did it, and that's good enough for us!"
rumborak
I wouldn't say laziness so much as the limitations of time and budget that come with a weekly TV show.
With the more important recurring races like the Ferengi and Klingons, they've already had the time to design it and probably have reusable molds to make it easier each time, and as such those are actually quite complex setups that cover most of the face and head (and in the case of the Cardassians, the neck too).
But for the alien of the week type aliens, they don't have as much time to come up with something, are probably limited by budget with how many people need to have it, and the amount of time it takes to apply the prosthetics. I'd say a Klingon or Ferengi would take at least a couple of hours to do, not just to put the stuff on, but to take it back off too. That's probably not viable when you've got a bunch of people to make up every day for a one-off race. So usually the aliens end up with only one slightly different detail to humans. It's often either just the ears, or just the nose or forehead, or sometimes just some painted spots and a silly hat. :lol
And when you consider that TNG/DS9/Voyager each did over 170 episodes, there are only so many combinations they can come up with every time.
I saw a funny one in the episode of DS9 I just watched. The guy's nose came down and attached to his chin, almost like a cup handle on his face. He could barely open his mouth, and when he had a drink from a cup, they had to conveniently crop it out of frame because it wouldn't have even worked. :lol
-
Well, I think they never explored non-interactive aliens enough IMHO. The Shelniak were a great example of that. All you could see was this almost Cylon-esque setup, and they then focused on the interactions with them. Definitely in my top 10 of Star Trek aliens.
rumborak
-
I don't remember them even though I would have seen the episode(s). Been too long unfortunately, so I can't remember what they did with them.
Trek for the most part wasn't really focused on that aspect of aliens. They kept them very humanoid because they were more focused on doing human relation stories with scifi elements. Usually it wasn't necessary for the aliens to be anything too different unless it served the story directly. They were either closely humanoid, or completely unrecognizable sentient lifeforms such as energy beings that had little direct communication.
So take your pick of either vag-face human, sentient space cloud, or giant whale probe. Not much inbetween.
-
I don't remember them even though I would have seen the episode(s). Been too long unfortunately, so I can't remember what they did with them.
The Sheliak (looked it up just now, I misspelled it) claimed ownership to a planet on which humans lived (due to accidental colonization). The awesome part about the Sheliak was that they viewed humans as inferior, so the treaty between them and humans had millions of words to compensate for the inferior human language :lol
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080330120037/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/1/18/Sheliak.jpg/180px-Sheliak.jpg)
I thought that episode (and the Darmok one) made the topic of first-interaction with a new race interesting. Most of the time it's just "put it on viewer, and switch on the universal translator".
rumborak
-
"Darmok" was one of the best Star Trek episodes of all time, IMO.
-
I don't remember them even though I would have seen the episode(s). Been too long unfortunately, so I can't remember what they did with them.
The Sheliak (looked it up just now, I misspelled it) claimed ownership to a planet on which humans lived (due to accidental colonization). The awesome part about the Sheliak was that they viewed humans as inferior, so the treaty between them and humans had millions of words to compensate for the inferior human language :lol
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080330120037/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/1/18/Sheliak.jpg/180px-Sheliak.jpg)
I thought that episode (and the Darmok one) made the topic of first-interaction with a new race interesting. Most of the time it's just "put it on viewer, and switch on the universal translator".
rumborak
I did look it up (and was too kind to mention the spelling error :p ), and I even recall the episode, but I still don't recall the aliens at all. I guess I only remember them if they resemble female genitals. :lol
Sounds like as good an excuse as any for another full watch through once I'm done with DS9.
-
Occasionally TOS would do some fairly abstract aliens. The Melkotians come to mind.
I had read about the prosthetics for modern aliens. Generic Klingons or Ferengi, background crew members for example, didn't take much time since they had tons of reusable faces lying around and they weren't really seen in much detail. Recurring ones got streamlined after the first couple of appearances just due to practice. Worf, for example, didn't take much time. Central character Klingons and Ferengi that hadn't been seen before took forever. They had to create new versions from scratch, and since they were going to get a good amount of screen time, they had to be fairly detailed.
-
Occasionally TOS would do some fairly abstract aliens. The Melkotians come to mind.
Horta. Yeah, not as abstract as Melkotians, but still non-humanoid.
-
I thought the Horta was a neat idea for a creature. That was my first exposure to silicon-based life, which apparently had been something something of a staple in sci-fi for a long time, but I was like nine years old and didn't know that. When I got to junior high and learned that silicon is immediately below carbon in the periodic table (and therefore has the same valence electrons and will tend to react similarly in certain situations) it all made sense.
-
Blink of an eye was a great episode. Live Fast and Prosper was quite good IIRC. I remember the man from Critical care but not much else.
-
In retrospect it's plainly obvious, but I never knew this was Iggy Pop. He made a great Vorta.
(https://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20041204050102/memoryalpha/en/images/a/ad/Yelgrun.jpg)
-
:lol
My wife and I were just discussing Iggy Pop and that I had no idea it was him recently.
-
I saw the picture first and thought it was a shoop of Weyoun. :lol Never realized that was him.
-
I haven't seen that episode yet, but I'll have to keep an eye out for him now. :lol
-
Weyoun was my favorite Vorta (not many to choose from) but he was brilliantly acted, the scenes between him and Damar where among some of my favorite.
-
I haven't seen that episode yet, but I'll have to keep an eye out for him now. :lol
I always really liked this episode. The other cool tidbit is that the other Vorta is from a previous episode, The Ship.
-
Weyoun was my favorite Vorta (not many to choose from) but he was brilliantly acted, the scenes between him and Damar where among some of my favorite.
Yeah. Certainly a credit to Jeffery Combs. The fact that occasionally people would kill him and he'd come back just the same was a pretty neat story device. Great since Worf got to be the one to kill the very last of the Weyouns.
And The Magnificent Ferengi was a real good episode. DS9 seemed to have the best knack for doing light hearted episodes.
-
Garak killed the last Weyoun.
-
Yeah, I guess he did. I just remember it being somebody who took great satisfaction in it.
-
Well, Damar certainly enjoyed himself when Worf killed Weyoun. :) Why did Garak hate Weyoun so much? I can't recall any personal interaction they had before that, was it just because he was the public face of the Dominion?
-
Man, the actress who played Jennifer became a whole lot better between "Emissary" and "Through the Looking Glass." She was painful to watch in the pilot. :lol
-
Oh god, she was terrible. Worst thing about "Emissary" too which is too bad, because it was otherwise a pretty good pilot episode.
-
Oh god, she was terrible. Worst thing about "Emissary" too which is too bad, because it was otherwise a pretty good pilot episode.
I was quite surprised by how good it was for a pilot. My expectations for scifi pilots are pretty low, because they have so much to establish.
The TNG pilot was pretty dreadful (aside from Troi in the miniskirt), Voyager's was pretty average, and Enterprise's pilot left me unimpressed. But DS9's pilot managed to introduce a lot of plot points while still managing to be an enjoyable episode.
-
Troi's mini skirt was negated by hearing her cry, "I feel paaaaaain" every 3 seconds. I'm so glad they flushed out her character better.
-
Troi's mini skirt was negated by hearing her cry, "I feel paaaaaain" every 3 seconds. I'm so glad they flushed out her character better.
Freudian slip? Freudian mini skirt? Hmmm...
-
Troi's mini skirt was negated by hearing her cry, "I feel paaaaaain" every 3 seconds. I'm so glad they flushed out her character better.
Freudian slip? Freudian mini skirt? Hmmm...
:lol I have a few Next Generation blooper tapes and I never saw Troi like that dammit! :lol Though she is toppless from another show on it.
-
I believe the expression is "they fleshed out her character" as in adding more substance to the basic outline of the character. I must admit that seeing Marina Sirtis "fleshed out" in various clips found on the 'net was quite an eye-opener, if you know what I mean.
-
They should have flushed her character [out the nearest airlock]. It would have made the show halfway bearable.
-
Both of you are correct. :lol
-
Yeah, the female characters always were kinda lacking in TNG. Picard, Data, Worf all got these deep character developments, whereas Crusher was really just a mom doctor, and Troi's character was all over the place. Also, any episode focusing on Deanna had a high probability of involving Lwaxana, and that was a guarantee for crap.
rumborak
-
The only time Troi was ever worth a shit was when she was hammered on tequila.
And am I the only one that thinks the Worf/Troi thing was one of the stupidest TV romances ever conceived? Not only was it just flat out stupid, but it really made Worf a much bigger wuss than I already thought he was. What the hell were they thinking?
-
I can't think of any good that came of it. And in reality, being a Klingon he should have shattered her weak human pelvis to fuck-dust.
Although I'm not sure if it was possible to make Worf a bigger wuss than he already was, with his nicely shampooed hair and streaks, and beauty pageant sash.
-
Worf was getting in touch with his *Richard Nixon fingers* Human side.
And your right El Barto.
-
I can't think of any good that came of it. And in reality, being a Klingon he should have shattered her weak human pelvis to fuck-dust.
Troi was half Betazed. Maybe their bones have a much higher concentration of iron or other minerals, making them much stronger.
Ah, fuck it, you're right, there's just no way.
Although I'm not sure if it was possible to make Worf a bigger wuss than he already was, with his nicely shampooed hair and streaks, and beauty pageant sash.
No argument there. I loved it when there were other Klingons and they gave Worf shit about it. He tried to play it like it was a great honor to serve in Star Fleet and this is how they dress, blah blah blah, but no one was buying it.
-
Worf/Jadzia got everything right. It made sense. On the other hand, I remember being in middle school watching TNG episodes wondering why the hell Troi and Worf were together at all.
-
Not only that, but they also completely disregarded it later for the movies, with Riker and Troi marrying in Nemesis.
rumborak
-
Oh my God.....
https://www.dolphincry.com/imzadieverlasting/gym/weddingalbum.htm
:|
rumborak
-
What the... ?
-
So, half of those photos are screenshots or set photos from Nemesis, but what's the bet the other half were only taken at Jonathan Frakes' request for his personal collection?
You know the really scary thing? If you look at the side on pic in the 3rd row down, it is uncanny how much she actually looks like her on-screen mother Lwaxana Troi / Majel Barrett.
-
So, I'm downloading the Star Trek New Voyages episode with George Takei in it right now. Anybody watch it?
rumborak
-
I've only seen segments of New Voyages, but not that particular one. The most I've ever seen of a "fan film" was Of Gods and Men, and I didn't make it far through it. Kind of painful. I have trouble watching fan films.
-
So, I'm downloading the Star Trek New Voyages episode with George Takei in it right now. Anybody watch it?
rumborak
Watched the first three, but gave up before that one (the fourth). They actually have some decent ideas, but they're painfully bad at conveying them. The Sulu premise might actually be pretty good, the Chekhv idea certainly was, but I suspect it'll still be an unpleasant 60 minutes.
-
So, I'm watching it right now, and it definitely is the best fan-produced stuff I have seen so far. That said, I don't get why they're trying so hard to be TOS. They're trying to match the voices, even Shatner's weird facial expressions!
With the visual technology they seemingly have, they could have gone a completely fresh route.
rumborak
-
Oh my God.....
https://www.dolphincry.com/imzadieverlasting/gym/weddingalbum.htm
:|
rumborak
400 years later and the wedding cake and dress still looks the same? Ffs!
-
Why does Geordie have robotic eyes again in Nemesis when he had proper working human eyes in Insurrection ?
-
I don't remember. I've only seen Nemesis a few times sadly.
-
Why does Geordie have robotic eyes again in Nemesis when he had proper working human eyes in Insurrection ?
Because apparently the effects of the short term exposure were only temporary. Or we could just ignore Nemesis to avoid the issue altogether. I'm sure if we took it to a vote, it would pass unanimously.
-
It's such a bummer. I love TNG so much more than TOS, but in terms of movies TOS got a miles better deal. First Contact was good, Generations was ok-ish, and the others were plain eh.
rumborak
-
TOS definitely had the better record for movies. I think the best and worst of TOS vs TNG were about equal, but TOS managed more really good ones.
If you take out the TOS stuff, and ignore the plot holes of the Nexus, I actually quite like Generations. I also think Insurrection is a decent movie too, even though it wasn't a strong follow up to First Contact, and was too low key for a movie release. For me Nemesis was the only truly bad TNG movie, and First Contact was the only great one, with the other two still being ok despite their obvious flaws.
-
They should have done one movie with Q, that would have been so awesome.
rumborak
-
Nemesis always felt close to being great, but something just fell so flat. They might have been better had they cooled off the 'we have to be big' engines and put more effort into exploring the identity story.
-
They should have done one movie with Q, that would have been so awesome.
rumborak
That could have been so awesome BUT with Q in the cast - you could literally have ANYTHING happen in the plot and just have any old Deus Ex Machina .... Although would it still be a Deus Ex Machina if you introduce Q at the beginning ? Does it have to pop up out of nowhere at the end and save the day ?
-
Nemesis always felt close to being great, but something just fell so flat. They might have been better had they cooled off the 'we have to be big' engines and put more effort into exploring the identity story.
And didn't take *quite* so many cues from The Wrath Of Kahn.
-
Interesting Cracked article, #1 is about Gene Roddenberry: https://www.cracked.com/article_19576_6-pop-culture-visionaries-who-get-too-much-credit.html
-
Looks like he's #6. And he deserves to be on that list. Sure, he's responsible for establishing Star Trek, but let's look at since then. He was responsible for Star Trek TMP. Then he basically got taken out because that bombed, and we got STII onwards.
And I believe he had some strict rule about no conflict between humans, because the Federation is supposed to be perfect, which is why everyone on TNG was so friendly. Then he died, and they went against that rule and made DS9.
-
Yeah, I think I recall reading somewhere that Roddenberry would have hated DS9. Considering I hated TNG, I have to agree that he sucked.
-
I don't know, the DS9 staff says they had his blessing to do what they did with DS9. The assumption often made is that he would have hated it, but we'll probably never know.
-
Looks like he's #6. And he deserves to be on that list. Sure, he's responsible for establishing Star Trek, but let's look at since then. He was responsible for Star Trek TMP. Then he basically got taken out because that bombed, and we got STII onwards.
And I believe he had some strict rule about no conflict between humans, because the Federation is supposed to be perfect, which is why everyone on TNG was so friendly. Then he died, and they went against that rule and made DS9.
That's what I meant. Although it doesn't really even matter in this case, because even though they're numbered backwards like that, Cracked articles don't tend to be ranked as far as I can tell.
-
TOS definitely had the better record for movies. I think the best and worst of TOS vs TNG were about equal, but TOS managed more really good ones.
If you take out the TOS stuff, and ignore the plot holes of the Nexus, I actually quite like Generations. I also think Insurrection is a decent movie too, even though it wasn't a strong follow up to First Contact, and was too low key for a movie release. For me Nemesis was the only truly bad TNG movie, and First Contact was the only great one, with the other two still being ok despite their obvious flaws.
:tup
I *loved* Generations in the cinema - it just felt epic. Plus the music was amazing.
First Contact was pretty enjoyable too. Probably the best TNG movie.
Insurrection was fun but was basically a big tv episode.
Nemesis looked ridiculously awesome from the trailer but didn't quite deliver - but i can still watch it. It's obviously nowhere near as bad as Final Frontier.
In short - TNG movies don't hit the same highs as the best TOS movies but they don't hit the same lows as the worst TOS movies.
In my opinion.
-
My Star Trek Movie list
1. The Wrath of Khan
2. First Contact
3. The Undiscovered Country
4. Star Trek (2009)
5. The Voyage Home
6. The Search for Spock
7. Generations
8. Insurrection
9. Nemesis
10. The Motion Picture
11. The Final Frontier
-
Kahn
Undiscovered Country
The Search for Spock
The Voyage Home
The Motion Picture
First Contact
Insurrection
Star Trek (2009)
Nemesis
Generations
The Final Frontier
TMP was actually pretty good once they released the Expanded Edition which explained what the hell was going on.
I put 2009 right in the middle because it's in some ways very good, and in other ways complete shit. I really don't know how to rank it. I do have hope the the next one will be much better, though.
First Contact should probably be a bit lower on my list, but it is fun. I just don't like the movie version of Piccard very much. Truth be told, I'm not crazy about the TV version, but that is Piccard--not the wannabe action hero and loose cannon the movies make him out to be.
-
I have the expanded version of TMP but that movie drags so much.
I think the swashbucking movies seem to be my favorite. A male soap opera. blow stuff up.
Though The Voyage Home was so different is was that good. Nemoy's a good director but Shatner.........er...... not so much
-
Movie ranking time?
Kahn
Voyage Home
Undiscovered Country
First Contact
The Search for Spock
Generations
Insurrection
The Motion Picture
Nemesis
The Final Frontier
I'm kind of with Barto on Star Trek 09. In some ways it was quite good, and I could see myself putting it above TSfS and Generations. But on the other hand, there were lots of things that really annoyed me which would put it around Insurrection/TMP. Don't really know where to rank it right now, but since its an alternate timeline I don't really think its comparable to any of the other movies.
-
Khan - Untouchable.
Star Trek ( 2009 ) - I absolutely loved it. Been a Trekker for most of my life and didn't have any problem with it.
Undiscovered Country
First Contact
The Voyage Home
Generations ( I love it )
Insurrection
Nemesis
The Motion Picture
The Search For Spock - second worst one but not by a long way.
The Final Frontier - Universally accepted as worst trek.
-
Sure looks like nobody likes Spock's brother. :lol
-
The thing is, the movie actually starts nicely and isn't too bad in the middle either, but the end is just such a train wreck. I didn't realize until now that Shatner directed it, and frankly I'm not surprised really.
rumborak
-
I liked Sybok, and I don't share the hatred for STV. It's not a masterpiece or anything, but I just don't see why it's considered so freakin' horrible. I at least put it above Nemesis, which I thought really was crap.
-
Final Frontier isn't *abysmal* - it was on tv recently and it's actually quite fun.
Lots of funny gags too.
But it just is nowhere near as good as some of it's predecessors - plus it was followed by Undiscovered Country - one of the best.
I still rank it below Motion Picture though.
-
That could have been so awesome BUT with Q in the cast - you could literally have ANYTHING happen in the plot and just have any old Deus Ex Machina .... Although would it still be a Deus Ex Machina if you introduce Q at the beginning ? Does it have to pop up out of nowhere at the end and save the day ?
Not if Q caused the problem in the first place.
(EDIT: It's ok, I don't mind being a page late.)
-
BTW, not only is The Undiscovered Country an excellent movie, but its opening music is also bad-ass.
rumborak
-
I saw part of it on a Saturday. Seems HBO has been playing the first 6 movie a ton.
-
BTW, not only is The Undiscovered Country an excellent movie, but its opening music is also bad-ass.
rumborak
Star Trek 2 and Star Trek 2009 have the best music IMO :)
-
BTW, not only is The Undiscovered Country an excellent movie, but its opening music is also bad-ass.
rumborak
Great decision by Nick Meyer to get away from the traditional sci-fi epic musical score and do something different. The music when Kirk and McCoy escape from Rura Penthe is awesome. Surprised that composer never went on to do anything else noteworthy (that I am aware of).
James Horner did a great score for II as well.
-
IIRC, it had that Gustav Holst, Mars thing going on right up until it culminated with the epic explosion of Praxis. Yeah, great stuff.
-
I just watched Star Trek V: The Final Frontier for the second time. First time I saw it was when I was just getting into Trek, and I kind of zoned out for most of it and didn't remember it at all.
And you know what? I actually quite enjoyed it. The terrible parts were so bad they were good, and the Kirk/Spock/McCoy trio was in top form. I'd actually say this movie feels the closest to the original series out of all the movies. I'll update my ranking and say that this is much better than The Motion Picture.
-
Ah, another fan has seen the light!
I never thought STV was that bad. A lot of people seemed to hate on it just because Shatner directed it (I specifically remember hearing remarks to that effect) but I didn't get it. Nimoy had already directed two of them, and many great directors were actors first, or you could say that many actors make great directors. I don't know if Shatner is a great director, but I was willing to give him a shot and never understood those who weren't.
-
I never knew Shatner directed it when I first saw it, but I kind of got distracted while watching it the first time, and only remembered the weird ending with "god", so I remembered it being bad.
Also, this was before I saw any TOS, so I didn't really appreciate the great character moments in it first time around. Spock never really felt the same to me in the movies as he was in TOS, but this comes closest for me.
It's a very camp movie, but that's why I enjoyed it so much. Kirk free climbing a cliff and falling to be saved by Spock in rocket boots? That is GOLD.
-
I watched it again the other night, because of this thread, and still didn't like it. A couple of the ideas were alright, like the so-called Planet of Eternal Peace that turned into a shit-hole, but most of it was just pretty bad. I won't make a list of all of the things I found wrong with it, but I'll throw out the most glaring. They say repeatedly that no ships or even probes can penetrate the barrier, and every thing they've sent in there was destroyed, but the Enterprise cruises right on in with no problem. OK, maybe the Enterprise is the Blues Mobile and has spooky powers that allow for such a thing, but what about the Bird or Prey, which also strolls right on in after them?
-
Plots holes in STV? NO!!!!
-
El Barto, you're right about the ton of problems the movie has, and I won't defend it. I wouldn't call it a good Trek movie, but for me it was still an enjoyable Trek movie. It had a redeeming charm to it. What can I say? I have a soft spot for awesomely bad movies. :lol
-
I wouldn't call it a good Trek movie, but for me it was still an enjoyable Trek movie.
This is the key. Star Trek the TV series tried to be "hard sci-fi" sometimes, but was really at its best when it was just entertaining and fun and not clobbering you over the head with its political and social allegory. The Star Trek movies have a different feel to them, and I'm just looking to be entertained overall.
Also, I like the ending. Why does God need a starship? Isn't he God? Obviously not.
Dammit Jim, you're gonna piss God off!
But he's not God!
"God" starts zapping people with his laser eyeballs
See! Told you!
Shit, duped again!
-
Khan (a masterpiece, imho)
The Search For Spock
The Motion Picture
The Voyage Home
Star Trek ( 2009 )
Undiscovered Country
First Contact
Generations
Insurrection
Nemesis
The Final Frontier
On a related note, I think it's absolutely amazing that I can watch unlimited episodes of the original series on my iPhone and iPad. :hefdaddy
-
Also, I like the ending. Why does God need a starship? Isn't he God? Obviously not.
Dammit Jim, you're gonna piss God off!
But he's not God!
"God" starts zapping people with his laser eyeballs
See! Told you!
Shit, duped again!
That actually was pretty cool. They probably could have expanded that a bit. Kirk was always at his best when using logic to fuck with beings far superior to himself.
Something else that bothered me about the ending was that when God zapped them with the laser thingy, it left a smoldering burn patch on the back of their uniforms to match the one on the front, implying that the laser actually went clean through them. Yet it didn't really seem to hurt them very much. I hate to be one of those Comic Book Guy types who nitpick every little thing, but it would have been a helluva lot easier to just imply that it punched them in the gut or something, rather than burning a big smoking hole through their chests.
-
Yeah, I was a bit disappointed when it turned out that they didn't really have a hole burned through them (seriously).
The whole movie was kinda like an extended TOS episode, which may be why I like it so much. They weren't trying to save the earth, or the whole galaxy or universe or whatever. They weren't for some reason the only ship in the quadrant close enough to deal with the imminent threat to something. They were seeking answers, exploring, checking out some unexplained life form, which is what TOS was all about. And yeah, Kirk got to fuck with a clearly superior being, so that was cool.
-
Was watching TNG episode "Clues" yesterday, the one where the Enterprise lost a full day and it turns out Data was lying to cover up that they encountered a race that didn't want to be found. What a great episode. Only bummer is that glaring plot hole that they actually end up with a *two* day difference to the rest of the universe at the end.
rumborak
-
I wouldn't call it a good Trek movie, but for me it was still an enjoyable Trek movie.
This is the key. Star Trek the TV series tried to be "hard sci-fi" sometimes, but was really at its best when it was just entertaining and fun and not clobbering you over the head with its political and social allegory. The Star Trek movies have a different feel to them, and I'm just looking to be entertained overall.
Well I much prefer the later series such as TNG and DS9 to the movies (and to a lesser degree more than TOS), so I don't fully agree there. I do like the lighter side of Trek a LOT, which is why The Voyage Home is one of my favourites, along with stuff like The Trouble With Tribbles, but I also love the really science fictiony stuff too, as long as they're not being blatant with the allegory. I'm always in it for the entertainment, not to be lectured.
Yesterday I watched a great DS9 episode (Children of Time) where the Defiant went to this planet that had an energy barrier around it. When they get there there's an entire race of their own descendants. It turns out that when the Defiant tries to leave the planetary energy barrier, they end up getting shot back in time 200 years and crashing on the planet, and start a civilization there.
And then they have to deal with the issue of either leaving the planet successfully this time and essentially stopping all of these people from ever existing, or whether they should accept the crash to allow these people to live, and lose one of their own crew in the process.
There were flaws with the time travel logic, but I just love whenever they can do the kinds of story that regular shows can't, with time travel, and parallel worlds, and all the fun stuff, and not necessarily with a blatant message to it. That's the stuff I find most entertaining and fun.
-
^ That reminds me of a pretty good Voyager episode where they get stuck in orbit around a planet with a hugely accelerated passage of time and they observe it go from nothing to warp capable in a matter of days and someone from the surface makes contact with voyager and they find out that Voyager has been in the sky for the entirety of their history. Pretty cool.
-
Yes, that's "Blink of an Eye", one of my favourite Voyager episodes. It also has the asian dude from Lost in it as one of the aliens who takes the spaceship onto Voyager.
-
Whoa, I was pretty sure I'd seen every Voyager episode, but that doesn't even sound familiar. Now I have to look it up.
-
I never got the time line difference in that episode, but it was good.
Speaking of planetary time fields, "Sound of Her Voice" was a pretty good one for DS9, too. It was the 'formal' send off episode of Terry Farrell. Started off shaky, but it had a lot of nice character stuff. The final scenes is really sad knowing it's a cast farewell.
-
I love Star Trek and watched all the series but damn if I can remember the names of the episodes like you do. I just read your synopsis of these episode and I'm like, "Oh, that's the name of that episode?" :lol
-
Blink Of An Eye as Blob said is a great episode.
-
Cool episode. Same story as Lisa's petri dish civilization in Treehouse of Horror VII.
-
Not far off . :P
-
Cool episode. Same story as Lisa's petri dish civilization in Treehouse of Horror VII.
I was going to mention that earlier too. Incidentally, that's always been my favourite Halloween episode.
-
Afflicted with a rather gnarly cold, I've watched movies 1-4 and 2009 over the last day and a half. Some musings:
Khan and Search for Spock actually have just as many plot holes as all the rest of the movies, and often just as glaring. Yet you look right past them because the story's are good and the movies make you want to care about the characters more than nitpick. I can point to 8 different things terribly wrong in the final 10 minutes of Khan, but with Spock dying right there in front of Kirk, how could you possibly give a shit? That sort of character dynamic carries right on into TSFS. The exchange with Sarek at the end pretty much exemplifies why they're good movies, and so many of the followers sucked ass.
Ambassador Sarek: But at what cost ? Your ship. Your son.
Kirk: If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul.
If TMP didn't look as dated as it does, people would think it a much better movie. The story's good and the Kirk/Decker subplot is really something else. It's also one of the few movies that actually has a story along the lines of TOS. It's more sci-fi than action. They should have expanded on Spock's situation a bit more, though.
Here's what really sucks. Mankind, being relatively primitive, yet insatiably curious, sends out a bunch of rather crude probes with the incredibly naive instructions to "learn all that is learnable." By the God-damnedest stroke of luck, one of them stumbles through a black hole and pops up in front of advanced aliens who are sympathetic to it's cause, and build into it the capability of actually fulfilling it's dramatically overambitious mission. It spends 200 years traveling the galaxy, destroying everything it encounters while accumulating a library of data so large it's unfathomable. Not only does it possess the combined knowledge of the galaxy, it's steadfastly determined to see every bit of that data delivered back to Earth. And when it's finally time to unload all of that information, it up and changes it's mind and disappears off to God knows where, never to be seen again. If it had actually done what it was supposed to do, we could have been on par with The Q by the time TNG rolled around. In the 23rd century, Will Decker is history's biggest asshole.
There needs to be a drinking game for The Voyage Home, where you take a shot every time they do something to completely fuck the timeline. It's a fun movie, and I enjoy watching it, but it's somewhat like the TNG movies where they just stopped caring about things that used to be really, really important. Did nobody think it relevant that Chekov tossed a phaser to a military intelligence goon before running out the door? Yeah, I know, plot holes, but this is the sort of thing that they really cared about before. Seems like kind of a turning point, where being cute is more important than being earnest.
As for the reboot: J.J Abrams must die. I really want to like it more than I do. I think they could be onto something with it. The casting was great. I liked the story and even Captain Nero. I don't have a problem with the new timeline, although multiple canons will get confusing after a while. It was just a horrible mess of story telling. Abram's entire plan seemed to be throwback references and action sequences. A lot of the references were actually pretty amusing, but got stale fairly quickly. As for the action sequences, much like plenty of other modern action flicks, so chaotic that they made no sense whatsoever. I don't understand why they spend 20 million dollars on a CGI scene that happens so fast you can't even tell who's shooting at what.
And I think that's largely a function of what I dislike most about Abram's style with this. It's shot to appear like you're in the middle of it. It's Star Trek for the realty television segment. Hand held cameras, shaking all hell over the place, and multiple lens flairs in every scene, as if they had no control over the lighting. I want to see the story unfold, not be a part of it. It used to be that immersion came from the story, and good filmmakers knew that their role should be to stay the fuck out the way. Shame that's no longer the case.
The first thing I did when I finished 2009 was look to see if Abrams was directing the next one. Sadly, he is. Moreover, I'd bet good money they make it in 3d. The next step in making the telling of the story more important than the story itself. Sigh.
-
If TMP didn't look as dated as it does, people would think it a much better movie. The story's good and the Kirk/Decker subplot is really something else. It's also one of the few movies that actually has a story along the lines of TOS. It's more sci-fi than action. They should have expanded on Spock's situation a bit more, though.
I think the movie is going to be dull no matter how you dress it up. The director's cut has a lot of fixed up and redone effects, and looks a lot better than the original theatrical version, but it's still a slow movie.
It's not that I think it's a bad movie, but it really should have only been an episode, and not a movie (and I believe it actually was written as a Phase II episode). It's drawn out to the point where it's basically 2001: A Space Odyssey.
I think that what they had going was good, but there wasn't enough meat there to sustain 2 hours. Maybe it would have worked better as a 90 minute movie, if they could still maintain everything that was necessary.
As for the reboot: J.J Abrams must die. I really want to like it more than I do. I think they could be onto something with it. The casting was great. I liked the story and even Captain Nero. I don't have a problem with the new timeline, although multiple canons will get confusing after a while. It was just a horrible mess of story telling. Abram's entire plan seemed to be throwback references and action sequences. A lot of the references were actually pretty amusing, but got stale fairly quickly. As for the action sequences, much like plenty of other modern action flicks, so chaotic that they made no sense whatsoever. I don't understand why they spend 20 million dollars on a CGI scene that happens so fast you can't even tell who's shooting at what.
I had no problem with the movie visually with camera work, but there was a lot of redundant action for the sake of it. The part where Kirk is being chased by that giant monster on Delta Vega(?) felt like something I expect in Star Wars, not Star Trek. It was pointless filler because they didn't trust their target audience to handle more than 5 minutes without an action sequence.
Overall I like the movie, but I hated it at first just because of the ridiculous number of plot holes and other things that just didn't work. Nero is a terrible enemy, and nothing about his motivation works unless you assume he is literally a brain dead moron with zero reasoning skills.
And I thought the casting was overall pretty good, although aside from Spock/Kirk/Uhura, all of the characters were completely wasted with parody one liners. Hopefully they'll have time in the next movie to establish the characters a little bit more.
The first thing I did when I finished 2009 was look to see if Abrams was directing the next one. Sadly, he is. Moreover, I'd bet good money they make it in 3d. The next step in making the telling of the story more important than the story itself. Sigh.
If I recall, he was pretty set on filming it in 2D, so they're going to convert it to 3D in post.
-
^ Yes. Blame Paramount for that. JJ was adamant he wouldn't shoot it in 3D so he could use film. He is going to release 2D and converted 3D versions.
I'm not going to pay extra to see pop-up Star Trek with poor brightness. I'll see it in 2D the way it was shot, thank you.
-
I don't know if anyone here is a fan of "The Nostalgia Critic" but he is reviewing all the odd number star treks this month, TMP has been put up and it's pretty good:
https://thatguywiththeglasses.com/
-
I'm not going to pay extra to see pop-up Star Trek with poor brightness. I'll see it in 2D the way it was shot, thank you.
I'm not going to pay to see Star Trek shot by that Blair Witch guy.
If TMP didn't look as dated as it does, people would think it a much better movie. The story's good and the Kirk/Decker subplot is really something else. It's also one of the few movies that actually has a story along the lines of TOS. It's more sci-fi than action. They should have expanded on Spock's situation a bit more, though.
I think the movie is going to be dull no matter how you dress it up. The director's cut has a lot of fixed up and redone effects, and looks a lot better than the original theatrical version, but it's still a slow movie.
It's not that I think it's a bad movie, but it really should have only been an episode, and not a movie (and I believe it actually was written as a Phase II episode). It's drawn out to the point where it's basically 2001: A Space Odyssey.
I think that what they had going was good, but there wasn't enough meat there to sustain 2 hours. Maybe it would have worked better as a 90 minute movie, if they could still maintain everything that was necessary.
Well, technically, it was a retelling TOS episode The Changeling. The pacing didn't bother me. Five minutes of Kirk and Scotty flying around the new Enterprise was a bit much; seemed like a music video for the score. Aside from that, I'd rather see a slowly paced sci-fi story than the never ending action sequences that the franchise became.
-
If TMP didn't look as dated as it does, people would think it a much better movie. The story's good and the Kirk/Decker subplot is really something else. It's also one of the few movies that actually has a story along the lines of TOS. It's more sci-fi than action. They should have expanded on Spock's situation a bit more, though.
I think the movie is going to be dull no matter how you dress it up. The director's cut has a lot of fixed up and redone effects, and looks a lot better than the original theatrical version, but it's still a slow movie.
It's not that I think it's a bad movie, but it really should have only been an episode, and not a movie (and I believe it actually was written as a Phase II episode). It's drawn out to the point where it's basically 2001: A Space Odyssey.
I think that what they had going was good, but there wasn't enough meat there to sustain 2 hours. Maybe it would have worked better as a 90 minute movie, if they could still maintain everything that was necessary.
Well, technically, it was a retelling TOS episode The Changeling. The pacing didn't bother me. Five minutes of Kirk and Scotty flying around the new Enterprise was a bit much; seemed like a music video for the score. Aside from that, I'd rather see a slowly paced sci-fi story than the never ending action sequences that the franchise became.
I don't mind slowly paced as long as it's paced that way for a purpose, but it just felt like it was slow for the sake of some self indulgent slow space shots, and some redundant fluff that didn't serve the story. As nice as it was to see the Enterprise for the first time in space dock, they didn't need to milk it forever. Ideally, I like a balance between action, some good scifi and some good character moments etc.
We're talking the extremes here. Star Trek 2009 sacrificed character moments and depth so they could have more explosions, but Star Trek TMP felt like it sacrificed pretty much everything for no good reason imo. Considering it's one of the longest Trek movies, it seemed to have the least to it.
Personally, I think Trek has always flourished much better as a series than as movies, because there they could focus on balancing out these elements, instead of thinking about how to draw in the casual movie-goers with mindless space battles.
-
Considering it's one of the longest Trek movies, it seemed to have the least to it.
Interesting observation, and hard to argue with. I think it did have plenty to it, it's just that none of it was ever explored very well. You had Spock's mysterious fascination with V'ger. You had Kirk and Decker fighting over command. You had V'ger itself. None of these were fleshed out, in favor of grandiose. Yet still, as a movie from 1979, I think it worked well enough, and in that light still beats out plenty of the newer ones.
-
I would actually easily rank it my least favourite. Even though there are Trek movies I'd consider technically worse, I still enjoy them a hell of a lot more, because while TMP may have less flaws, it also has much less to redeem it. Every other movie I can point out something specific and say "that was a great character moment" or "that was a great action sequence". I watched TMP only a week or so ago, and nothing really comes to mind.
I do agree it had many good story threads established, but they weren't really given much screen time, relatively speaking, and they could have done a lot more to tie them together into a much better movie.
-
Found " Blink Of An Eye " online to watch. Gonna watch it now :D
-
Found " Blink Of An Eye " online to watch. Gonna watch it now :D
Definitely one of the hotter Kirk babes in that one - he even gets busy!
-
Found " Blink Of An Eye " online to watch. Gonna watch it now :D
Definitely one of the hotter Kirk babes in that one - he even gets busy!
That's Wink of an Eye. This is Blink of an Eye, the Voyager episode, which incidentally was originally going to be called Wink of an Eye until they realized there was a TOS episode of that name already.
-
benadict cumberpatch (form bbc sherlock holmes) is going to be in the new film i wonder what sort of role he will be in? goodie/ baddie will he be human or alien ???
-
I've only seen pictures of him, but he'd make a good Trelane. As I recall, Trelane was mentioned as one of the five possible antagonists of the next film.
-
Khan and Search for Spock actually have just as many plot holes as all the rest of the movies, and often just as glaring. Yet you look right past them because the story's are good and the movies make you want to care about the characters more than nitpick. I can point to 8 different things terribly wrong in the final 10 minutes of Khan, but with Spock dying right there in front of Kirk, how could you possibly give a shit? That sort of character dynamic carries right on into TSFS. The exchange with Sarek at the end pretty much exemplifies why they're good movies, and so many of the followers sucked ass.
There is nothing ‘terribly wrong’ with II at all. ;)
Shatner wrote that it felt less like they were searching for Spock as they were stumbling their way to him. Maybe that is true. The plan, hijacking the Enterprise, even Sulu tossing that guard… all that was great and has the total feel of a TOS episode. C. Lloyd was a good Kruge, and having one of his men arbitrarily kill Saavik/Spock/David, and Saavik having to tell Kirk about David was awesome. I still remember seeing the preview where it showed a brief clip of the Enterprise blowing up, and thinking “whaaaaaaaaaa?!”
I don’t like IV as much as I did when it came out, but I get how they felt they needed something more lighthearted after II and III. TOS wasn’t all serious and sci-fi in every episode, and IV captures that other side of TOS well.
I have never seen the Director's Cut of TMP, I'll look in to that.
-
Found " Blink Of An Eye " online to watch. Gonna watch it now :D
Definitely one of the hotter Kirk babes in that one - he even gets busy!
That's Wink of an Eye. This is Blink of an Eye, the Voyager episode, which incidentally was originally going to be called Wink of an Eye until they realized there was a TOS episode of that name already.
Whoops :blush
-
I just finished watching the first season of DS9 on Netflix a few days ago (I have seasons 3 through 7 on DVD) and I have to say, I don't really understand the criticisms that the first season gets. There are a few clunkers there, but the worst episodes are just boring as opposed to the genuinely awful episodes from TNG's first season (and there were a lot of them!). Season 1 also has "Duet" which is one of the best episodes in the series.
DS9 also has the privilege of having the best pilot episode out of the Trek shows. Characters and plot-lines are quickly established and stuff that happens continues to affect the remainder of the series. It's really actually a good, enjoyable pair of episodes as opposed to the usual 'well, it's good for a pilot.' I actually enjoy watching it every now and again, unlike "Encounter at Farpoint" which is enjoyable only for the Q scenes.
So, not a particularly great season, but not as bad as people seem to say.
I then watched the Voyager pilot, which was just kind of... bleh. There was definitely some room for... something afterwards, but as we all know, something didn't really happen. Also, the Kazon are one of the worst enemy races ever conceived, though not as bad as TNG's 1st and 2nd season Ferengi.
-
I completely agree about season one of DS9. I actually thought for some reason that it was bad, which is why a year or two ago when I did a re-watch I skipped season 1. However recently I rewatched again WITH season 1 and was blown away. And yes, Duet is easily one of the best DS9 episodes ever if not one of the best Star Trek episodes ever. Just a beautiful episode.
-
The TNG Ferengi were terrible. Sort of like a retarded Ron Paul congregation, but in space. DS9 picked them up, but made them much more interesting.
rumborak
-
I just finished watching the first season of DS9 on Netflix a few days ago (I have seasons 3 through 7 on DVD) and I have to say, I don't really understand the criticisms that the first season gets. There are a few clunkers there, but the worst episodes are just boring as opposed to the genuinely awful episodes from TNG's first season (and there were a lot of them!). Season 1 also has "Duet" which is one of the best episodes in the series.
DS9 also has the privilege of having the best pilot episode out of the Trek shows. Characters and plot-lines are quickly established and stuff that happens continues to affect the remainder of the series. It's really actually a good, enjoyable pair of episodes as opposed to the usual 'well, it's good for a pilot.' I actually enjoy watching it every now and again, unlike "Encounter at Farpoint" which is enjoyable only for the Q scenes.
So, not a particularly great season, but not as bad as people seem to say.
I then watched the Voyager pilot, which was just kind of... bleh. There was definitely some room for... something afterwards, but as we all know, something didn't really happen. Also, the Kazon are one of the worst enemy races ever conceived, though not as bad as TNG's 1st and 2nd season Ferengi.
I was really surprised by how strong the DS9 pilot was. It was downright decent! Easily the best Trek pilot. Voyager's one wasn't too bad, but it was nothing special. And it's basically downhill from there. :lol
I actually thought all of S1 of DS9 was pretty good. No real bad episodes, just not as great ones. And the show just kept improving from there. I only just started S7 myself for the first time ever.
The TNG Ferengi were terrible. Sort of like a retarded Ron Paul congregation, but in space. DS9 picked them up, but made them much more interesting.
rumborak
I avoided DS9 for so long, and one reason was because I hated the Ferengi from TNG (and brief appearances in other later series). DS9 did make them great, although I didn't like the fact they felt they had to neuter most of what made them unique to make the main characters "likable". Every alien race doesn't have to comply exactly to Starfleet morals to be a likable character.
Nog didn't care about profit and joined Starfleet and basically became human. Rom was never a good Ferengi, and he fought for a union and became a Bajoran engineer and let his wife wear clothes (which was a shame considering how damn fine Leeta was). Their mother wore clothes and earned profit and screwed with the entire Ferengi system to make it more human-like and give women rights.
Quark mostly stuck to being a Ferengi, but even he had hew-mon morals get in the way of him doing anything too despicable. He got downgraded to merely slightly greedy.
-
Oh, I totally agree that they never explored the interesting ramifications a Ferengi society would have. But that holds for a lot of races they introduced.
rumborak
-
I avoided DS9 for so long, and one reason was because I hated the Ferengi from TNG (and brief appearances in other later series). DS9 did make them great, although I didn't like the fact they felt they had to neuter most of what made them unique to make the main characters "likable". Every alien race doesn't have to comply exactly to Starfleet morals to be a likable character.
Nog didn't care about profit and joined Starfleet and basically became human. Rom was never a good Ferengi, and he fought for a union and became a Bajoran engineer and let his wife wear clothes (which was a shame considering how damn fine Leeta was). Their mother wore clothes and earned profit and screwed with the entire Ferengi system to make it more human-like and give women rights.
Quark mostly stuck to being a Ferengi, but even he had hew-mon morals get in the way of him doing anything too despicable. He got downgraded to merely slightly greedy.
That's an interesting point. They still had the traditional hard-assed Ferengi come in from time to time, but often even those guys were used for laughs. Would have been cool to see them be a little more ruthless. Although honestly, it's probably TNG's fault for turning them into the comic relief. In fact, I'd say they were ruined from their first appearance. Great in concept, but after behaving like idiots and waving around those whips like a bunch of sissies in The Last Outpost, who could take them seriously.
I just finished watching the first season of DS9 on Netflix a few days ago (I have seasons 3 through 7 on DVD) and I have to say, I don't really understand the criticisms that the first season gets. There are a few clunkers there, but the worst episodes are just boring as opposed to the genuinely awful episodes from TNG's first season (and there were a lot of them!). Season 1 also has "Duet" which is one of the best episodes in the series.
I did the same thing a while back, and I agree. The problem is that we all look at the whole Dominion war seasons as great, and the first couple of seasons, collectively, cant live up to that. On an episode by episode basis, there really isn't much of a difference between the first two and the later 5 seasons. It's just the that the first two suck comparatively when taken as a whole.
Personally, I thought the Klingon war was pretty entertaining.
-
I avoided DS9 for so long, and one reason was because I hated the Ferengi from TNG (and brief appearances in other later series). DS9 did make them great, although I didn't like the fact they felt they had to neuter most of what made them unique to make the main characters "likable". Every alien race doesn't have to comply exactly to Starfleet morals to be a likable character.
Nog didn't care about profit and joined Starfleet and basically became human. Rom was never a good Ferengi, and he fought for a union and became a Bajoran engineer and let his wife wear clothes (which was a shame considering how damn fine Leeta was). Their mother wore clothes and earned profit and screwed with the entire Ferengi system to make it more human-like and give women rights.
Quark mostly stuck to being a Ferengi, but even he had hew-mon morals get in the way of him doing anything too despicable. He got downgraded to merely slightly greedy.
That's an interesting point. They still had the traditional hard-assed Ferengi come in from time to time, but often even those guys were used for laughs. Would have been cool to see them be a little more ruthless. Although honestly, it's probably TNG's fault for turning them into the comic relief. In fact, I'd say they were ruined from their first appearance. Great in concept, but after behaving like idiots and waving around those whips like a bunch of sissies in The Last Outpost, who could take them seriously.
True, and I give credit to DS9 for taking a stab at giving them more depth and creating more of a culture there.
Oh, I totally agree that they never explored the interesting ramifications a Ferengi society would have. But that holds for a lot of races they introduced.
rumborak
Agreed. As much as I am loving DS9, I feel they kind of overwhelmed themselves with possibilities from the very start, and never got a chance to fully explore a lot of these avenues they created. The same can be said for Bajoran culture and religion. They don't even go to Bajor all that often considering it's the closest planet to the station.
The problem with the Ferengi is that they quickly became a joke race that were basically just supposed to be the most greedy aspects of humanity rolled into a punchline. They were exaggerated to the point where it became impossible to believe it could really be a functional society, when every Ferengi is literally out for only themselves. It only really worked when they kept it to isolated appearances, rather than the times where they actually go to Ferenginar.
-
To me, there was always the issue of what I would call the "menial worker problem" of Star Trek.
So, you got the races like Klingons and Ferengi flying these interstellar spaceships. Problem is, with their supposed primary ethic (being a warrior for the Klingons, making profit at all costs for the Ferengi), there should be nobody manning the science stations, the engineering sections. There is no glory or profit in doing the basic science needed to get a race into space, so humans should never have met those races in the first place.
So, every time they actually dug into an alien race, they ended up becoming more human like. The only race that didn't suffer from that problem were the Borg.
rumborak
-
To me, there was always the issue if what I would call the "menial worker problem" of Star Trek.
So, you got the races like Klingons and Ferengi flying these interstellar spaceships. Problem is, with their supposed primary ethic (being a warrior for the Klingons, making profit at all costs for the Ferengi), there should be nobody manning the science stations, the engineering sections. There is no glory or profit in doing the basic science needed to get a race into space! so humans should never have met those races in the first place.
rumborak
I can't tell you how many times I've looked at a Klingon ship and wondered about the poor hypothetical Klingon who sat there in an office designing GUIs, logos and guidance systems, and wondering how that fit in with their sense of honour. :lol
The fact is that such single minded races with no real diversity wouldn't have flourished to a functional civilization. Why would a Ferengi father even want to support a family? It eats into profits, especially as the females aren't allowed to earn profits.
At least races like the Vulcans and Cardassians are a bit more believable, since the traits that make them unique don't entirely define them as a culture.
-
I just finished watching the first season of DS9 on Netflix a few days ago (I have seasons 3 through 7 on DVD) and I have to say, I don't really understand the criticisms that the first season gets. There are a few clunkers there, but the worst episodes are just boring as opposed to the genuinely awful episodes from TNG's first season (and there were a lot of them!). Season 1 also has "Duet" which is one of the best episodes in the series.
DS9 also has the privilege of having the best pilot episode out of the Trek shows. Characters and plot-lines are quickly established and stuff that happens continues to affect the remainder of the series. It's really actually a good, enjoyable pair of episodes as opposed to the usual 'well, it's good for a pilot.' I actually enjoy watching it every now and again, unlike "Encounter at Farpoint" which is enjoyable only for the Q scenes.
So, not a particularly great season, but not as bad as people seem to say.
My recent rewatch of DS9 I also enjoyed season one. It isn't that bad, and has some great episodes. I love seeing the early characters and how some later arcs started forming, like between Bashir and O'Brien. Sisko and his son is a great element of the season, especially with Nog in the mix. Duet through the first three episodes of season two is a great run, and where I thinkt he series first hit it's real stride. I think the pilot episode is excellent, I've probably watched that more than any other episode in the series.
Still, it probably is the weakest season, too much trying to be like TNG.
-
I agree that the 2009 Trek was fun but disjointed with some good characters but for the most part ruined by characters you don't care about or do things that honestly are forgotten about. For example, Kirk is an asshole. Plain and simple and that I don't like at all. You can make him reckless but an asshole? Really? How are we supposed to connect to that kind of character? Then you have Spock exiling Kirk on an Ice planet. Okay.. he might not be thinking straight after his planet is... you know. But why didn't he just throw him in the brig? That whole sequence was by far the worst part of the whole movie. There are plenty of other character actions that do not make sense, especially where Nero is concerned. All in all, it wasn't a bad movie but the screenplay clearly needed polish.
Deep Space 9 was the biggest surprise for me. I only watched the show recently and it impressed me through and through. The 6 season in my opinion is the best season for Star Trek ever. Dynamic characters, real and personable and interesting (except for maybe Dax who I thought was a bit too cardboard cut out for me but I think Teri just wasn't the right person to play her). However DS9 took a HUGE nose dive with Season 7 which is probably the worst season of Star Trek ever. Granted there were some genuinely good episodes, the whole point of Season 7 almost undermined the whole series. It was such a disappointing season that I cannot believe it was written by the same people who did season 6.
Also, after recently watching TNG I'm beginning to notice a few things. Gene and/or the producers of Star Trek clearly have no idea what it means to be "in the dark ages". In two different episodes they have related it to religion and ideology, comparing it to suspicion, fear and doubt, obviously making the connection that religion and heliocentric thinking are "the dark ages". It was such a breath of fresh air seeing that Deep Space 9 jettisoned this idea, however Season 7 brought it all back again. :( For a show that is supposed to be about morals and philosophical ideas, they certainly fall flat on getting the basics correct.
-
I only just started watching S7 of DS9 for the first time and I'm only two episodes in. Without giving any spoilers, what's wrong with S7 compared to other seasons? Because you're far from the first person I've heard with the same opinion. Many people seem to share the same sentiment.
Then again, the same people said S1 was bad, and I loved that too, so I'm trying to just watch it without any preconceptions.
-
I won't spoil anything but first off the last episode of Season 6 and the first two episodes of Season 7 should be a clear give away about what is going to happen. remember the plot with Sisko's "real" mom, what happens when the worm hole closes, how the Bajorans react to it, (SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T WATCHED THIS YET!! DO NOT READ THIS!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED) how Dax dies, and how the two major antagonists, (damn it I can't remember their names: the Cardassian and the Bajorin high priestess) are handled in this season. None of it works. The good episodes are still good and there were geniunely great moments in the season, but overall, it really "jumped the shark".
-
It's interesting to think that with Gene still alive, DS9 might never have become as good as it did without him. It majorly violated one of his paradigms, I.e. staying away from religion.
rumborak
-
It is unfortunate that his religious views ended up in quite a few of the TOS and TNG episodes. It does make these episodes a bit hard to accept especially when he mis-attributes religion (prime offenders The Drumhead, Who Watches the Watchers and First Contact). Oh well.
-
It's interesting to think that with Gene still alive, DS9 might never have become as good as it did without him. It majorly violated one of his paradigms, I.e. staying away from religion.
rumborak
Interesting point, never thought about that. That would have taken out two of the crucial parts of the story, the Founders and Bjorrans.
-
It is unfortunate that his religious views ended up in quite a few of the TOS and TNG episodes. It does make these episodes a bit hard to accept especially when he mis-attributes religion (prime offenders The Drumhead, Who Watches the Watchers and First Contact). Oh well.
Your inclusion of The Drumhead leads me to believe that you're hunting for instances where you can point out attacks on religions; be they real or imagined. Sometimes a fictional story is just a story told for entertainment.
-
I won't spoil anything but first off the last episode of Season 6 and the first two episodes of Season 7 should be a clear give away about what is going to happen. remember the plot with Sisko's "real" mom, what happens when the worm hole closes, how the Bajorans react to it, (SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T WATCHED THIS YET!! DO NOT READ THIS!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED) how Dax dies, and how the two major antagonists, (damn it I can't remember their names: the Cardassian and the Bajorin high priestess) are handled in this season. None of it works. The good episodes are still good and there were geniunely great moments in the season, but overall, it really "jumped the shark".
Nothing is wrong with season 7, it's as good as or close to season 6, and the final arc is the best thing Trek has ever done. The most common opinion as I know it is that season 7 is the second best season for DS9, just behind 6. Some people just hate it.
Kai Winn's story made sense, as did Dukat's seeing as *SPOILERS* season 6 decidedly displayed his mental instability. There was no surprise either character sided with the very antithesis to Sisko's being.
-
The problem with season 7 is that more than half of the episodes are stand-alones that don't really advance the stories they'd been building up to for so long. You've got 3 years worth of Dominion war and all of it's intrigues, and when it's time to wrap everything up in the final season, they're showing baseball games*, creating new love interests and revisiting Dax's past hosts like it's new territory. After season 6, I think everybody had an expectation that 7 would be a grand finale. It seems like TPTB knew their exit strategy, and that they were going to wrap everything up neat and tidy in the final 4-6 episodes, so most of what preceded it was just filler.
*I enjoyed the baseball episode, BTW. Just citing it as another non-story arc bit of filler.
-
It is unfortunate that his religious views ended up in quite a few of the TOS and TNG episodes. It does make these episodes a bit hard to accept especially when he mis-attributes religion (prime offenders The Drumhead, Who Watches the Watchers and First Contact). Oh well.
Your inclusion of The Drumhead leads me to believe that you're hunting for instances where you can point out attacks on religions; be they real or imagined. Sometimes a fictional story is just a story told for entertainment.
This. How in the world is The Drumhead an attack on religion? :huh:
The Drumhead is an excellent (albeit somewhat heavy-handed) allegory to McCarthyism, or the Stasi.
Who Watches The Watchers is indeed about religion, but to be honest it is for all intents and purposes a retelling of European Middle Age history, where people were struggling with their new insights (Enlightenment) and their past (mysticism, The Church).
rumborak
-
It is unfortunate that his religious views ended up in quite a few of the TOS and TNG episodes. It does make these episodes a bit hard to accept especially when he mis-attributes religion (prime offenders The Drumhead, Who Watches the Watchers and First Contact). Oh well.
Your inclusion of The Drumhead leads me to believe that you're hunting for instances where you can point out attacks on religions; be they real or imagined. Sometimes a fictional story is just a story told for entertainment.
This. How in the world is The Drumhead an attack on religion? :huh:
The Drumhead is an excellent (albeit somewhat heavy-handed) allegory to McCarthyism, or the Stasi.
rumborak
I think they did reference Salem and the Inquisition specifically. Doesn't matter, though. It's still just an allegory about paranoia.
-
I remember watching the episode the first time and that happened during GWB's reign. The similarities of eroding personal liberties under the veil of an external threat was just striking.
rumborak
-
The problem with season 7 is that more than half of the episodes are stand-alones that don't really advance the stories they'd been building up to for so long. You've got 3 years worth of Dominion war and all of it's intrigues, and when it's time to wrap everything up in the final season, they're showing baseball games*, creating new love interests and revisiting Dax's past hosts like it's new territory. After season 6, I think everybody had an expectation that 7 would be a grand finale. It seems like TPTB knew their exit strategy, and that they were going to wrap everything up neat and tidy in the final 4-6 episodes, so most of what preceded it was just filler.
Considering I've had the same criticism about every other season so far, this wouldn't bother me (although the first 6 episodes of S6 were just plain amazing, and everything I had hoped for).
-
The problem with season 7 is that more than half of the episodes are stand-alones that don't really advance the stories they'd been building up to for so long. You've got 3 years worth of Dominion war and all of it's intrigues, and when it's time to wrap everything up in the final season, they're showing baseball games*, creating new love interests and revisiting Dax's past hosts like it's new territory. After season 6, I think everybody had an expectation that 7 would be a grand finale. It seems like TPTB knew their exit strategy, and that they were going to wrap everything up neat and tidy in the final 4-6 episodes, so most of what preceded it was just filler.
Considering I've had the same criticism about every other season so far, this wouldn't bother me (although the first 6 episodes of S6 were just plain amazing, and everything I had hoped for).
Yeah, but you kind of expect that. When it's already clear that they're in the final season, and they've got a story they've spent 6 years developing to wrap up, you tend to expect more content than filler.
-
The problem with season 7 is that more than half of the episodes are stand-alones that don't really advance the stories they'd been building up to for so long. You've got 3 years worth of Dominion war and all of it's intrigues, and when it's time to wrap everything up in the final season, they're showing baseball games*, creating new love interests and revisiting Dax's past hosts like it's new territory. After season 6, I think everybody had an expectation that 7 would be a grand finale. It seems like TPTB knew their exit strategy, and that they were going to wrap everything up neat and tidy in the final 4-6 episodes, so most of what preceded it was just filler.
Considering I've had the same criticism about every other season so far, this wouldn't bother me (although the first 6 episodes of S6 were just plain amazing, and everything I had hoped for).
Yeah, but you kind of expect that. When it's already clear that they're in the final season, and they've got a story they've spent 6 years developing to wrap up, you tend to expect more content than filler.
Ok, that's valid. It's not like a regular show where they just go as long as possible. They knew going in that they were stopping with S7, so they had no excuse to hold back anything at that point. They could go in with all guns blazing all season knowing that they didn't need to worry about next season.
As I haven't seen any but the first 3 episodes yet, I can't give any first hand opinion on it, but the main issue with scifi issues is usually the budget. You can't blow your money load on every episode. For every badass space battle episode you have, you'll probably have to endure at least one bottle show of nothing but talking to pay for it. :lol
I've found DS9's filler episodes to be of a pretty good standard though, so hopefully I'll still enjoy it.
-
Yeah, I agree with both points. They probably did spend a ton of money on massive star ship battles and busloads of alien extras to kill. And their filler episodes generally are above par. I don't actually have much of a problem with season 7. I can just understand why people were disappointed.
-
To me, there was always the issue of what I would call the "menial worker problem" of Star Trek.
So, you got the races like Klingons and Ferengi flying these interstellar spaceships. Problem is, with their supposed primary ethic (being a warrior for the Klingons, making profit at all costs for the Ferengi), there should be nobody manning the science stations, the engineering sections. There is no glory or profit in doing the basic science needed to get a race into space, so humans should never have met those races in the first place.
So, every time they actually dug into an alien race, they ended up becoming more human like. The only race that didn't suffer from that problem were the Borg.
rumborak
:lol
I think about that every once in a while, but I just turn off my brain and ignore. Just like whenever I watch a time-travel episode.
The problem with season 7 is that more than half of the episodes are stand-alones that don't really advance the stories they'd been building up to for so long. You've got 3 years worth of Dominion war and all of it's intrigues, and when it's time to wrap everything up in the final season, they're showing baseball games*, creating new love interests and revisiting Dax's past hosts like it's new territory. After season 6, I think everybody had an expectation that 7 would be a grand finale. It seems like TPTB knew their exit strategy, and that they were going to wrap everything up neat and tidy in the final 4-6 episodes, so most of what preceded it was just filler.
Considering I've had the same criticism about every other season so far, this wouldn't bother me (although the first 6 episodes of S6 were just plain amazing, and everything I had hoped for).
Yeah, but you kind of expect that. When it's already clear that they're in the final season, and they've got a story they've spent 6 years developing to wrap up, you tend to expect more content than filler.
Well, the whole second half of season 7 is basically one, big, continuous plot-arc.
DS9 was made when shows with fully continuous storylines were pretty rare, so it is, in effect, a product of its times. The only show that I can think of that was truly devoted to its story at the time was Babylon 5 and even that had a fair few standalone episodes. It was also constantly on the verge of cancellation.
However, I do agree that the writers could've done a better job of focusing more on the main story during season 7 but it was still pretty damn plot heavy already. At least 18 of the episodes directly contribute to the main plots and that's pretty impressive for a Star Trek series.
-
I would disagree about what constitutes "directly contributing to the plot." The last 10 all do. Of the first 15, not many do, though a few are tangentially related.
-
I would disagree about what constitutes "directly contributing to the plot." The last 10 all do. Of the first 15, not many do, though a few are tangentially related.
Some are kind of thin, I agree, but a few tie up loose plot-lines and many are either related to the Dominion War or the whole Prophets plot-line.
I guess it really depends on how you view "directly contributing to the plot." :D
-
So, I've watched the first 5 or so eps. of S1 of TOS, and I have been very entertained all the way through. I do have a quick question:
Are they representative of the series' overall level of quality, or just a rather strong stretch of episodes? I mean, either way, I'm intending to watch the entire series and the movies, but I'm curious as to what to expect compared to what I've seen thus far.
Totally glad to be finally getting into this franchise, at any rate.
-
So, I've watched the first 5 or so eps. of S1 of TOS, and I have been very entertained all the way through. I do have a quick question:
Are they representative of the series' overall level of quality, or just a rather strong stretch of episodes? I mean, either way, I'm intending to watch the entire series and the movies, but I'm curious as to what to expect compared to what I've seen thus far.
Totally glad to be finally getting into this franchise, at any rate.
Out of the first 5, I'd say The Naked Time and The Enemy Within are moderately representative, although I think S2 is stronger, and there are many episodes that are a lot better than those.
-
So it picks up more over the course of the first 2 seasons (or in S2, at any rate)? If so, cool beans.
Does this basically mean rest of S1 keeps getting better, or is it sorta up and down from ep to ep?
Also, is S3 the shark-jumping that I've seen many refer to it as?
-
So it picks up more over the course of the first 2 seasons (or in S2, at any rate)? If so, cool beans.
Does this basically mean rest of S1 keeps getting better, or is it sorta up and down from ep to ep?
Also, is S3 the shark-jumping that I've seen many refer to it as?
I'd say it picks up a bit in the second half of S1, but think it varies too much to really generalize. There are equally amazing and bad episodes in the first 2 seasons.
S3 has more of the cheesy 60s stuff, although if you enjoy the camp factor, it's still very enjoyable. The first episode of the season "Spock's Brain" is usually considered the worst for some reason, so if you get through that episode and enjoy it, you'll probably enjoy the rest. And there are still great episodes in there. But there are definitely more of the really bad ones.
For example, the episode where Abraham Lincoln appears in space and comes aboard the ship and calls Uhura a charming negress. Good times. :lol
-
For example, the episode where Abraham Lincoln appears in space and comes aboard the ship and calls Uhura a charming negress. Good times. :lol
Uh... wtf?
I needs to watch some more of TOS, I think. :lol
-
Shouldn't be a problem, then. I'm the sorta guy who ends up getting huge space boners off of camp. That title, "Spock's Brain" sounds like something that'd be either putrid or downright hilarious. Ah well, I'll catch it when I reach it. It'll be a while, taking it at an episode per every day or two, and that's a pace I'm quite happy to work with. Keeps it a regular thing, but time to take it in and savor.
For example, the episode where Abraham Lincoln appears in space and comes aboard the ship and calls Uhura a charming negress. Good times. :lol
That is about 2009-Trek level silly. :lol :note: I loved that movie. It's what made me want to get into ST in the first place:
-
Shouldn't be a problem, then. I'm the sorta guy who ends up getting huge space boners off of camp. That title, "Spock's Brain" sounds like something that'd be either putrid or downright hilarious.
Let me set the scene for you - An alien female (dressed in a sexy 60s go-go dancer outfit of course) beams aboard the Enterprise and knocks out the crew. When they all wake up, they find that she has literally taken Spock's brain. So they do what any good crew would do; they make a remote control so they can move Spock around, then follow the warp trail to find where they took Spock's brain. It's basically Weekend at Bernie's with a Vulcan.
-
I think my IQ has dropped a few points. Bet it'll drop more than a few when I see it. No regrets. :lol
-
The problem with season 7 is that more than half of the episodes are stand-alones that don't really advance the stories they'd been building up to for so long. You've got 3 years worth of Dominion war and all of it's intrigues, and when it's time to wrap everything up in the final season, they're showing baseball games*, creating new love interests and revisiting Dax's past hosts like it's new territory. After season 6, I think everybody had an expectation that 7 would be a grand finale. It seems like TPTB knew their exit strategy, and that they were going to wrap everything up neat and tidy in the final 4-6 episodes, so most of what preceded it was just filler.
Considering I've had the same criticism about every other season so far, this wouldn't bother me (although the first 6 episodes of S6 were just plain amazing, and everything I had hoped for).
Yeah, but you kind of expect that. When it's already clear that they're in the final season, and they've got a story they've spent 6 years developing to wrap up, you tend to expect more content than filler.
Ok, that's valid. It's not like a regular show where they just go as long as possible. They knew going in that they were stopping with S7, so they had no excuse to hold back anything at that point. They could go in with all guns blazing all season knowing that they didn't need to worry about next season.
As I haven't seen any but the first 3 episodes yet, I can't give any first hand opinion on it, but the main issue with scifi issues is usually the budget. You can't blow your money load on every episode. For every badass space battle episode you have, you'll probably have to endure at least one bottle show of nothing but talking to pay for it. :lol
I've found DS9's filler episodes to be of a pretty good standard though, so hopefully I'll still enjoy it.
Yeah, budget was one thing, they went nuts with the final arc and saved a lot of their budget for it. Even then they could barely do it. *SPOILERS*The last episode was supposed to have three major battles. It ended up with two battles and used stock footage in a healthy number of cuts, which pissed some people off.*END SPOILERS*
The other thing to remember is that the studio did not like the extremely serial side of DS9, season six apparently got the studio's panties in a knot, but the ratings increase got them to give the DS9 team a little more freedom to end 7. Still, they never wanted the episodic nature abandoned, and the commentaries indicate they took every inch of being serial that the studio would allow.
I think some of the episodes are mislabeled as filler, and season 7 doesn't have too much when you start thinking about it. A quick scan of the episode list...
*SPOILERS*
Episodes 1-3, 17-25 are all serial.
Episodes 6,8,10,16 are dealing with the war
Episode 9 is a bridge episode between the serials bracketing the season
Episodes 5,7,11,12,13 all revisit popular minor characters or stories and give some closure
That leaves episodes 4(baseball),14(odo story), and 15(holosuite). 14 was interesting for Odo, but didn't play a major role in the series aside from being a discussion. 15 was simply the big breathe of air before the ball got rolling on the final push. ...and the last scene was great setup for that.
I think the biggest issue people have is that it sometimes felt like the war wasn't in the forefront, just sort of there but not always an urgent matter, particularly on the stretch 11-15. The revisiting past characters and stories is something DS9 always did, though, it was part of what made it more serial, but I think those get tabbed filler. On the other hand, one complaint I have heard often enough is DS9 didn't close enough of their minor threads.
*END SPOILERS*
I think it's mostly just 3 filler episodes, and one of those is iffy. Most of the season was accomplishing something towards ending things, people can just always do better in their own minds. :p
-
Well I just saw "Take Me Out To the Holosuite", which was "filler" by any definition. Not sure how I felt about that one. On one hand, I didn't buy the Vulcan aspect of it at all, and I don't want to see the generic every sports movie ever template in a scifi show, but the ending was pretty hilarious after they lost.
"You're trying to manufacture triumph where none exists."
"I'd say he succeeded."
"To manufactured triumph!"
"Manufactured triumph! Hear hear!"
:lol wtf?
-
Well, it was one of their mimic scripts for an older tv show. The best part is that the worst baseball playing character was actually the best real life baseball player. Rom's actor is a semi-pro that considered going pro, apparently they had to switch his handedness for him to successfully act out of this episode.
Yes, no question the baseball episode was filler.
-
DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION! :lol
So, I've watched the first 5 or so eps. of S1 of TOS, and I have been very entertained all the way through. I do have a quick question:
Are they representative of the series' overall level of quality, or just a rather strong stretch of episodes? I mean, either way, I'm intending to watch the entire series and the movies, but I'm curious as to what to expect compared to what I've seen thus far.
Totally glad to be finally getting into this franchise, at any rate.
I grew up watching them in syndication, where there was no order; just random episodes, minus two that they wouldn't show. As such, I can't associate any of them with seasons, other than Chekov and Yeoman Rand's presence. I think Kirk's wraparound shirt might be specific to a season, but I'm not sure. Still, looking over the episode guide, season 3 has just as many strong episodes, plus a handful of great ones, that I see no reason for any shark jumping opinions. From my perspective, the entire series was about the same. Generally good, with occasional great or poor episodes.
-
I watched one of the campiest TOS episodes yesterday, the one where those flying brain cells (which just dangle on wires through the scene :lol) infect Spock, and the healing treatment is a tanning station.
rumborak
-
I noticed Rom was batting lefty. Funny little bit of trivia there!
And of course I have no problem with filler generally speaking. DS9's filler episodes are usually pretty good, although because they have so many concurrent story arcs, you really notice when they decide to take two weeks for a personal baseball rivalry, rather than seemingly doing anything about that imminent threat of the Dominion, who are spending their time doing nothing but scheming against the entire Federation.
DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION! :lol
:lol That cracked me up.
-
I...you really notice when they decide to take two weeks for a personal baseball rivalry, rather than seemingly doing anything about that imminent threat of the Dominion, who are spending their time doing nothing but scheming against the entire Federation.
That's the problem I think people have with s7. Any break from the war felt odd, although the war was in a holding pattern according to the story(the Dominion consolidated to a defensive position for rebuilding). It just never felt right that DS9 would be off the front lines since Cardassia is supposed to be so close. I guess that's the advantage of never being completely clear on how the maps work.
-
I...you really notice when they decide to take two weeks for a personal baseball rivalry, rather than seemingly doing anything about that imminent threat of the Dominion, who are spending their time doing nothing but scheming against the entire Federation.
That's the problem I think people have with s7. Any break from the war felt odd, although the war was in a holding pattern according to the story(the Dominion consolidated to a defensive position for rebuilding). It just never felt right that DS9 would be off the front lines since Cardassia is supposed to be so close. I guess that's the advantage of never being completely clear on how the maps work.
Keeping in mind I haven't seen S7 yet (aside from the first 4 episodes) I could say the same thing about S6.
The first 6 episodes had one hell of a great Dominion war story arc, but after that, there weren't all that many that directly related to the Dominion war. Plenty of them had Weyoun and the Cardassians in some form, but only a few involved directly dealing with the war.
They had a wedding, a mirror universe episode, Quark saving his mother (even though it was from the Dominion), Quark hunting down Morn's money, Sisko stuck in a 1950s vision, O' Brien going undercover, Kira going back in time to meet her mother, Bashir being suspected of being a double agent, Odo and Kira hooking up via a holosuite, another Ferengi storyline, Molly ageing a decade, the Defiant taking a detour to save someone stuck on a planet. Sure, plenty of them had hints and pieces of what the enemy was doing, but there weren't many that really got into it. It mostly simmered. (I just skimmed the episodes, so I apologize if a couple of these did have solid Dominion storylines in there too)
And I'd say that's actually one of my only criticisms of the entire show so far, even from the start. They set up a lot of story arcs along the way, and then largely let them lie further in the background than I felt they really should have. Most of the Bajoran storylines got sidelined aside from the occasional episode, and they built up the Dominion from S2, and it took them 2 or 3 years before it really went anywhere at all.
But giant ramble aside, it's a relatively minor gripe. DS9 has strong enough characters to do a filler episode, and still have a highly enjoyable character piece. If that's the main problem with S7, then I'm not too concerned about it.
-
Oh, I agree about the s6 and s7 comparison, I'm strongly disagreeing with the major criticism posed about s7 in this thread compared to s6. I think they're fairly comparable, and if it's any indication, when I got both dvd sets this summer I tended towards watching s7 first. I'd already seen the series straight twice, so I didn't bother with order.
The Bajoran stories, I agree with, but it was partly because of a backlash from fans. The seasons 1 closer pissed a lot of people off, and for awhile they had to twist the studios arm to do religious episodes. That hurt the Bajor arc.
As for the Dominion, I disagree. It was a purposeful uncovering, they knew from season 2 that the end of the series was headed towards a war with the Dominion. They wanted to uncover it slowly. I think they handled it well.
-
I was mostly referring to the Bajoran arc when I refer to that criticism. I think they built up the Dominion story quite well overall, and the payoff was great once they did the big episodes. But it did start to bother me *slightly* once the Dominion war had officially started leading into S6, because at that point the Dominion were actively trying to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, and it was harder to believe that nothing was actively happening that was more important than whatever the episode was about instead. It was full on for those first 6 episodes, but then once the Federation got DS9 back, the Dominion seemed to lie low.
So again that's back to the S6/7 issue. And again, I don't consider it a huge problem. I've loved every season of DS9, even from season 1. At this stage, I'm hoping S7 will shape up the same way.
-
It's a fair criticism of the war, and when it was first aired I felt similar. Looking back now, it just doesn't bother me. Helps that I know how it all unfolds, I suppose, and that I tend to like a lot of the non-serial episodes. My favourite episode in s7 is actually an Ezri episode that revisits a past 'filler' story for another character.
-
Perhaps it also doesn't bother me as much because I'm watching them at a much faster rate than they would have aired on television, which I never saw. I'd imagine I'd be more impatient if I was waiting a week between episodes, then months inbetween seasons. I've been watching at least 1 or 2 episodes a day on average since I started DS9, so it's not all that long between the Dominion episodes.
-
I completely agree with that sentiment.
-
Goddamnit!!! I just started watching BSG Season 1 and now you guys are making me want to go back and do DS9 from start to finish. I DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF TIME!!!! :getoffmylawn:
-
Perhaps it also doesn't bother me as much because I'm watching them at a much faster rate than they would have aired on television, which I never saw. I'd imagine I'd be more impatient if I was waiting a week between episodes, then months inbetween seasons. I've been watching at least 1 or 2 episodes a day on average since I started DS9, so it's not all that long between the Dominion episodes.
Yeah, this is a very valid point. They wrapped up season six, set to finish with a bang, and then Sisko goes back to New Orleans. You've got the off season, then another 15 episodes (plus re-runs) before they really get back to the war. Given that everybody was geared up for the conclusion of the whole thing, that's really a let down.
-
Oh man, the TOS screenwriting is clumsy :lol
Every time there is a danger in a scene they get the point across by having a Redshirt die.
rumborak
-
What's funny is that the first 6 eps. have far fewer deadshirts than I expected. Hell, a couple of them didn't even have any redshirt killings, as far as I can recall (The Enemy Within and Mudd's Women).
MW was the one I saw today. Wasn't fantastic, but it's always funny to see Spock look on as his peers are all distracted by the sexy.
In the meantime, I'm gonna go ahead and see the next ep, What Are Little Girls Made Of.
Hope it's good.
-
In the meantime, I'm gonna go ahead and see the next ep, What Are Little Girls Made Of.
Hope it's good.
Yeah, good luck with that. :lol
-
Yeah, not exactly the best episode. Probably the worst of the first 7, actually.
Easily the most awkward, at any rate. Especially when Kirk was alone with robo-whore. I wasn't sure who was the more creepy of the two in that interaction. :lol
-
Yeah, not exactly the best episode. Probably the worst of the first 7, actually.
Easily the most awkward, at any rate. Especially when Kirk was in that room with robo-whore. I wasn't sure who was the more creepy of the two. :lol
The answer is always Kirk. Keep an eye out for the classic "Kirking" maneuver where he grabs the woman by both shoulders and pulls her in close (usually accompanied by a kiss as he teaches/forces her to make love)
-
Totally saw it in that ep. That man can just get away with it all. Normally, it'd probably be offensive or something, but that Shatner just makes it work. That guy just seems to make anything Kirk does work. Charisma in a spiffy uniform. I'd love to emulate him in at school and in public, if not for it probably being a really bad idea to actually do so.
Question: Is Miri good (Or better than this last one at any rate)? That's my episode of watching, tomorrow.
-
Miri is in my bottom ten, and I suspect others will echo that sentiment.
At least with WaLGMo, the android chick was absolutely gorgeous. The two ladies in Miri are an awkward 15 year old, and Yeoman Rand, who never really did anything for me. It's also a bit preachy. You've got a good taste of Roddenberry's social consciousness coming up.
This is why I never thought there was a drop off in quality. There are dog episodes throughout the show's run. I'd say the number of poor, average, and great episodes is pretty consistent across the series.
-
Today, I ended up watching both Miri and Dagger of the Mind. I enjoyed the latter more.
Miri wasn't bad, but I did find it rather slow-paced and uneventful, aside from the bonk-ing. Also, Barto's not the only person who Rand fails to impress. Kirk carried the episode, IMO.
Dagger's one of the most entertaining eps. I've seen so far (along with Where no man.., Naked Time, and The Enemy Within). The psycho-prison w/ mind-washing plot appealed to me; that mind-device room was (though probably unoriginal, even for its time) a very entertaining device with some disturbing ramifications. Van Gelder is easily one of my favorite extras-of-the-week and does a good job coming across as mind-raped. The villain Dr. guy wasn't super threatening or anything, but he wasn't the worst monster-of-the-week by any means (he made more sense than, say, the Dr. from WaLGMo, who is evil because he became part robot to live). My favorite moment was when Dr. Eye-candy kicked that guard into the voltage machine. That, and when Spock turned the power back on and unintentionally killed off Dr. Monster-of-the-week.
Also, South Park parodied it. That ep, Roger Ebert Should Lay Off The Fatty Foods, is one of my favorite episodes.
Tomorrow means Corbomite Maneuver, and maybe the Managerie 2 parter. What's y'all's word on those?
-
The Corbomite Maneuver is alright. The Menagerie is ok, but keep in mind that was only made as a cheap recut of the (at the time) unaired pilot featuring Captain Pike instead of Kirk. You may have seen the Pike wheelchair box thingy parodied before. It's a bit of a classic. :lol
I'm realizing there are still a fair few episodes in season 1 I haven't seen yet. Also, I would say the second half of season 1 after The Menagerie is a lot stronger than the first half, with a lot of great episodes.
-
The Corbomite Maneuver is one of my favorites. Clint Howard's about a creepy little fuck, but otherwise the episode is very good. One of the first instances of Kirk demonstrating why he's a badass, and McCoy absolutely ripping him.
One of the nifty things about the show is the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic. It's what makes the show so good. A big part of what makes that work is McCoy's willingness to tell either of them exactly how big of a shithead they're being at any given time, with no concern for the consequences. It'll be a recurring theme, and TCM is one of the first examples.
The Menagerie is also pretty good, though not one of my favorites. It does demonstrate for the first time that Spock's quite capable of outwitting them all easily, but usually chooses not to. Kind of like all of those TNG episodes where Data flips out and wreaks havok. If the guy sets out to screw you over, there's pretty much nothing you're going to do about it.
-
Today, I managed to see the Corbomite one and it was great!
The damn thing really kept me on the seat of my chair. I notice that the degree of an episode's threat tends to vary, and Balok's one of the biggest I've seen yet! He could have easily demolished the Enterprise and even had Spock out of his wits. Kirk's grip on the situation really reinforced his badassery, as you'd stated. After a rather intense conflict, it was a major relief to see Balok turn out to be benevolent and Clint Howard. Still, I was almost anticipating him to turn out to be evil, as he did look rather disturbing.
-
I don't know what season it is I'm watching, but Chekov has the most ridiculous hairdo.
rumborak
-
Probably 2 or 3. Haven't seen any instance of him in 1 and haven't seen 2 and 3.
-
I grew up watching the movies so I was a bit amazed when I found out that Chekov was a later addition to the cast.
-
I don't know what season it is I'm watching, but Chekov has the most ridiculous hairdo.
rumborak
Oh, that's all of them.
-
I don't know what season it is I'm watching, but Chekov has the most ridiculous hairdo.
rumborak
Oh, that's all of them.
Was it the Davey Jones look? Hey, the Monkey's are cool so lets give him that style of hair.
-
I believe he wore a wig in his first few episodes until his own hair grew out enough for the Davey Jones look. Trying to swing a new demographic.
-
I'd never paid attention to the chronology of it, but I remember a few specific episodes laughing out loud at how bad his hair was. Taking a quick look at Amok Time (his first episode?) it does look especially awful.
-
I believe he wore a wig in his first few episodes until his own hair grew out enough for the Davey Jones look. Trying to swing a new demographic.
100 correct. No matter what decade TV executives get their way. We should also add the mini skirts all the women had to wear. Not that I'm complaining but that would be funny to see women in the services wearing mini skirts today.
-
I had a conversation yesterday at lunch about Star Trek, and we came to talk about how the actors' appearances changed.
To me the most extreme was Scotty. I remember seeing the movies first and getting used to the portly, moustached guy. When I then saw the TOS episodes I was like "WTF, that's the same guy?!!"
Shatner's face also massively changed I find. Without knowing they're the same person I would not connect the two Shatners.
Patrick Stewart on the other hand has looked the same throughout his life it seems.
rumborak
-
Patrick Stewart has aged very well. It helps that he was basically bald even when they started, but he's always kept himself in good shape too.
I definitely agree that Scotty was the biggest change. I also saw the movies first (starting with TUC incidentally), so to me he was the tub with the white hair and moustache. Shatner ceased to be Kirk and just became.......... Shatner. Bones always looked basically the same, because he was old as dirt to begin with anyway. :lol
-
Nimoy actually got better over time. His gnarly face these days is beyond awesome.
rumborak
-
:lol
He seemed to age a fair bit between the series and the movie, but for a wise old Vulcan, the wrinkled facial erosion adds a touch of distinction and wisdom, especially since his more recent Trek roles have been set in the TNG+ timeline rather than the TOS one (I'm counting the Star Trek 2009 in the TNG timeline of course, since for his character it is a continuation of that timeline.)
-
Nimoy actually got better over time. His gnarly face these days is beyond awesome.
rumborak
Hey! He still looks good for being in is 200's. :lol
-
So, I saw the Menagerie.
It was quite interesting to see footage of what could have been the ST that wasn't. Pike was a badass before getting charred and such, though Kirk just has something to him that pushed the show to what it is. Definitely glad Number One got cut and replaced with McCoy; the former had about as much animation as your average noodle, which is made even more noticeable when compared with, well, McCoy.
My level of interest/curiosity was kept high throughout. It then proved rewarding to see that Spock had totally tripped everyone up. Definitely not the sort of gentleman you try and prevent from accomplishing his goals. I was a bit disappointed to see Pike get shipped off, as he is the most interesting paraplegic I've seen in space.
No more Pike for the rest of the series?
Also, is Shore Leave a good one?
-
From what I remember, Shore Leave is a pretty good one, with a fun ending.
-
Sounds fantastic, except I now remember that it's actually The Conscience of The King that's next.
Is that another good one, or is it a boner?
-
I liked The Conscience of the King. I'd call that a pretty good episode.
-
Sounds fantastic, except I now remember that it's actually The Conscience of The King that's next.
Is that another good one, or is it a boner?
There are only one or two dogs left in season one, and they're towards the end. The next 15 or so episodes range from average to awesome. Personally, I'd say the worst episodes of the first season are definitely behind you. Charlie X, WALGMO, Miri and Mudd's Women are probably the worst of the lot. I'd call TCotK and Shore Leave both 6's. Nothing particularly noteworthy about either of them, but they're entertaining nonetheless.
-
I'd agree with El Barto's assessment, and I said something similar earlier. The first half of season 1 was weaker stuff, but from here on there are a lot of great episodes, and the average episodes should be stronger. Oh boy, you've still got The City on the Edge of Forever and Space Seed ahead of you. :caffeine:
-
Sounds like a positive outlook, there.
Know nothing about TCotEoF, but I do know that Khan, villain of STII, which is apparently the best film, came from Space Seed, so that sounds fun.
Having not seen any of the movies, are the 3 even ones the best moments of TOS?
-
Sounds like a positive outlook, there.
Know nothing about TCotEoF, but I do know that Khan, villain of STII, which is apparently the best film, came from Space Seed, so that sounds fun.
Having not seen any of the movies, are the 3 even ones the best moments of TOS?
The City on the Edge of Forever is a fantastic Trek time travel episode, and probably about the only one that wasn't just a cheap excuse to save on sets and costumes. :lol A Great Kirk/Spock episode too.
Out of the movies, I'd say they're all worth watching if you're a fan. Ignore the even/odd thing. The first one is slow, but I think you should watch it if you're watching the rest, even if just for completeness. ST3 isn't that bad at all, it's just not one of the better ones, and ST5 is actually a hell of a lot of fun if you enjoy the campiness, and feels the closest to TOS to me.
-
I just watched "Friday's Child", and looked up the actress who gives birth in the episode. Damn, talk about aging badly!!!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/10.18.09JulieNewmarByLuigiNovi.jpg/220px-10.18.09JulieNewmarByLuigiNovi.jpg)
rumborak
-
I'd agree with El Barto's assessment, and I said something similar earlier. The first half of season 1 was weaker stuff, but from here on there are a lot of great episodes, and the average episodes should be stronger. Oh boy, you've still got The City on the Edge of Forever and Space Seed ahead of you. :caffeine:
Errand of Mercy and Balance of Terror. Some of the very best coming up. And I agree about the average episodes being stronger, as well.
-
I'd agree with El Barto's assessment, and I said something similar earlier. The first half of season 1 was weaker stuff, but from here on there are a lot of great episodes, and the average episodes should be stronger. Oh boy, you've still got The City on the Edge of Forever and Space Seed ahead of you. :caffeine:
Errand of Mercy and Balance of Terror. Some of the very best coming up. And I agree about the average episodes being stronger, as well.
And don't forget the camp classics of Arena and The Devil in the Dark! (both great episodes, but definitely some fun cheese factor there). Quite a few great episodes just in the rest of S1 alone. And then S2 kicks off with Amok Time.
Almost makes me wish I'd bothered to watch them in order, although as it wasn't essential, I just watched what were considered the best episodes first so that I'd get interested in watching the series.
-
I'm a massive Trekker who's hardly seen any TOS but I have the first series remastered on DVD but have only watched one episode so far.
It's the one where they beam down to a planet and that alien takes the form of whoever you want to see.
And it craves salt. Not a bad episode really.
-
I believe that's The Man Trap, the first episode (not including The Cage). Decent episode, but there are much better ones. If you found that one ok, you'd enjoy the rest of the series.
-
Yeah I dunno how i've never seen TOS in full ever since i've been massively into Trek for over 20 years :biggrin:
I started with TNG in the 90s - went forward from there and never seemed to be into watching TOS.
I enjoyed DS9 when it was a different story every week. When it became basically one continual story I lost interest.
Voyager is extremely hit and miss - and Threshold is the worst episode form any of the series. I honestly can't see how Spocks Brain can be worse :P
Hardly saw much Enterprise either.
-
I got to see Conscience of the King, as well as Balance of Terror.
The latter's arguably the best I've seen yet!
Hard to beat a space battle, Romulans, and an Aesop about racism.
-
Watching Trials and Tribble-ations right now. Yum, Terry Farrell in miniskirt.
rumborak
-
There seems to always be a decent supply of eye candy on the Enterprise.
Is it true Gene Roddenberry was banging just about every actress on set?
-
I find that highly doubtful, unless it happened right on the TOS sets. Even then he was in his mid 40s.
rumborak
-
I got to see Conscience of the King, as well as Balance of Terror.
The latter's arguably the best I've seen yet!
Hard to beat a space battle, Romulans, and an Aesop about racism.
There are plenty of other equally good ones in the rest of the season (and the other 2 seasons), a few of which El Barto and I named earlier. :tup
Watching Trials and Tribble-ations right now. Yum, Terry Farrell in miniskirt.
rumborak
Much better than the Starfleet potato sack (although the later era uniforms were a bit more flattering than the ones they started with).
It's also a shame that they established she had a pouch in her abdomen for the symbiont, so we only ever saw her in a one piece. It just felt prudish for a visit to Risa. :lol
I find that highly doubtful, unless it happened right on the TOS sets. Even then he was in his mid 40s.
rumborak
I believe that's how Majel Barrett got a gig as nurse Chapel even after the studio wanted her booted off for her performance in the pilot. And of course they later married.
And there are rumours about him and Nichelle Nichols, but I'm not sure how substantiated those are.
-
Charlie X
I don't know why I cannot stand "Charlie X". I can make through a lot of bad ST episodes but not Charlie X.
-
And there are rumours about him and Nichelle Nichols, but I'm not sure how substantiated those are.
Nichols said she had an affair with him a few years prior to Star Trek, which ended up helping her land the part.
-
And there are rumours about him and Nichelle Nichols, but I'm not sure how substantiated those are.
Nichols said she had an affair with him a few years prior to Star Trek, which ended up helping her land the part.
Oh well if she said it herself, I'll believe it's pretty reliable. :lol I knew I'd heard it, but I wasn't sure who/where it came from.
-
I got to see Conscience of the King, as well as Balance of Terror.
The latter's arguably the best I've seen yet!
Hard to beat a space battle, Romulans, and an Aesop about racism.
Balance of Terror is a real winner. It's a shame they stopped using plasma torpedoes as the Romulan's principal weapon. Great for adding suspense.
You got something interesting coming up. The best element of TOS is the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic. None of the characters would be worth a damn without the other two. In The Galileo Seven, Spock gets his first real command in a survival situation, and it doesn't go well at all. It gives you a real appreciation for Kirk's leadership once you see how terribly the straight logical approach to command goes.
It's also a pretty nifty insight into Scotty. After the first movie, Scotty became mostly comic relief, but in TOS he was a genuine badass. The only person in the ST universe that was cooler when facing certain death was Piccard. In TG7, he's at various times single-mindedly determined to repair the ship, ready to kick somebody's ass for disrespecting Spock, and blissfully content that he's fixing to burn up in space. Cool guy.
-
I thought it was well documented that Gene was a skirt chaser, to the point where it was a poorly-kept secret.
It's also a pretty nifty insight into Scotty. After the first movie, Scotty became mostly comic relief, but in TOS he was a genuine badass. The only person in the ST universe that was cooler when facing certain death was Piccard.
Agreed mostly, I never saw Scotty as comic relief in the films. He had some funny scenes ("Hello, computer....?"), but I wouldn't consider them "comic relief." Sure, maybe he wasn't utilized on the bridge as much as on the show, but he was always in command in engineering, or when he unfaultingly helps give the self-destruct code in STIII.
-
Well, as Rumbo pointed out, the movie versions of the characters are vastly different than the 60's TV versions, and Scotty is certainly the best example of that. Perhaps comic relief is a bit harsh, but he certainly became more of the jolly fat-man persona than the badass he originally was.
Interestingly, the new actors in the reboot all tried to take the qualities of the originals and make them their own, and in Scotty's case, he was a bumbler. It's pretty clear that Simon Pegg was modeling him after the Sgt. Schultz, movie version rather than the young and serious original.
-
Chekov's role was always a bit of a mystery to me. In TOS he was mostly there as the junior, hapless (and slightly retarded) comic relief, but in the movies it seemed his best qualities was to get injured.
rumborak
-
Well, as Rumbo pointed out, the movie versions of the characters are vastly different than the 60's TV versions, and Scotty is certainly the best example of that. Perhaps comic relief is a bit harsh, but he certainly became more of the jolly fat-man persona than the badass he originally was.
No argument with the bolded part, though I think he still has his moments. He tries to maintain order in engineering in II when the cadets panic during Khan’s attack; he shoots the potential assassin in VI. But the more I think about it, other than jacking a few screws from the Excelsior in III, does he actually do anything in that movie?
Another issue is that on the show, the characters are largely just names on the page. 10+ years later, the characters had taken on a life of their own, and there was an expectation of how they should act, both on the part of the actor, and the fans. Shatner would read a line and think “Kirk wouldn’t say this” because he felt he had a better understanding of Kirk than the director/writer. Whether or not that helped produce a better product is another issue.
And I think I read someone once suggest Koenig had the best scream, so Chekov was always the first choice when one of the crew needed to be injured. :lol
-
Chekov's role was always a bit of a mystery to me. In TOS he was mostly there as the junior, hapless (and slightly retarded) comic relief, but in the movies it seemed his best qualities was to get injured.
rumborak
Yeah, it seems he actually had a pretty nice career, it was just never really discussed in the films. He was the chief tactical officer on the refitted Enterprise, which explains how he was the one to blow the living shit out of Reliant when the time came, and in between he was actually the Reliant's XO. After all of that he kind of just became Kirk's personal driver.
Another issue is that on the show, the characters are largely just names on the page. 10+ years later, the characters had taken on a life of their own, and there was an expectation of how they should act, both on the part of the actor, and the fans. Shatner would read a line and think “Kirk wouldn’t say this” because he felt he had a better understanding of Kirk than the director/writer. Whether or not that helped produce a better product is another issue.
That's a reasonable point. If it's actually correct, then Doohan should have stuck with the scripts. Like I said, he played the role as the jolly fat man and as a caricature of Scotsmen.
-
I thought this might interest some of you:
https://trekmovie.com/2012/02/13/details-and-cover-from-star-trek-tngdoctor-who-assimilation2-crossover-comic/
-
Yikes, watching TOS "A piece of the action" right now. Terrible episode, and it blows my mind that TNG redid it with "The Royale".
rumborak
-
I love A Piece of the Action. :lol
It's not a great episode, but it's a fun episode. I just like the idea of Spock and Kirk in suits, and hearing Kirk trying a mobster "accent".
I can't remember The Royale off the top of my head, although I have seen it. I think I'm overdue for a TNG watch through.
-
I think what bothered me most was that Kirk and Spock would constantly end up in some mobster hand, despite the fact that they could stun a whole block by letting Scotty know.
rumborak
-
Great technology divides like that always bother me in Trek episodes. They have all of that technology, but for the sake of the story they never really use it to its full potential, and then get captured by a bunch of cavemen.
There were some funny uses of the transporter near the end of the episode though, if I recall.
-
Shore Leave proved very entertaining. Not in the same way that say, Balance of Terror was, but for one of the sillier, less serious, episodes, it worked very well. I was quite surprised to see McCoy get killed, though I wasn't surprised at all to see that he wasn't killed off. I mean, he IS a primary character, if a rather non-active one, aside from his really effective speeches/calling Kirk and/or Spock out. Also, it was nice to have a break from Yeoman Rand.
-
I know we're (apparently) only talking about ToS right now, but I wanted to point something out.
During my re-watch of DS9, the 7th season brought about a great amount of uncomfortability when we find out that Kai Winn's first name is Adami.
Hearing Dukat say things like "But Adami I love you" and so forth was just a bit off putting.
-
I always liked APotA. I also don't think it's very similar to The Royale at all. Certainly not a retelling by any means.
Shore Leave was a good episode. Nothing great, but nothing bad. And Yeoman Rand is gone. The Conscience of the King was her final episode.
During my re-watch of DS9, the 7th season brought about a great amount of uncomfortability when we find out that Kai Winn's first name is Adami.
Yeah, I was very familiar with DS9 long before I started posting here, so you're pretty much stuck with the fact that I always associate you with her. Could be worse, though. For the longest time I thought she was the woman who played Beulah Balbricker. Hard to find a more despicable character to be permanently linked with (although Nurse Rached wasn't exactly a charmer).
-
The Naked Now & The Naked Time are pretty much the same episode.
-
The Naked Now & The Naked Time are pretty much the same episode.
Yeah, I thought that was pretty cheap. But then I thought the first season of TNG was miserable.
-
Seriously cheap. They even pointed out in the TNG episode itself that they were experiencing the same deal as the TOS crew did.
-
I know we're (apparently) only talking about ToS right now, but I wanted to point something out.
During my re-watch of DS9, the 7th season brought about a great amount of uncomfortability when we find out that Kai Winn's first name is Adami.
Hearing Dukat say things like "But Adami I love you" and so forth was just a bit off putting.
When I first signed up here and saw your username I thought it was pretty cool that your name was an obscure Trek reference. My illusions, they have been broken!
-
You got something interesting coming up. The best element of TOS is the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic. None of the characters would be worth a damn without the other two. In The Galileo Seven, Spock gets his first real command in a survival situation, and it doesn't go well at all. It gives you a real appreciation for Kirk's leadership once you see how terribly the straight logical approach to command goes.
It's also a pretty nifty insight into Scotty. After the first movie, Scotty became mostly comic relief, but in TOS he was a genuine badass. The only person in the ST universe that was cooler when facing certain death was Piccard. In TG7, he's at various times single-mindedly determined to repair the ship, ready to kick somebody's ass for disrespecting Spock, and blissfully content that he's fixing to burn up in space. Cool guy.
Caught that ep last night. Real thriller, that's for sure! Your statements regarding the Spock-Kirk-McCoy trio's necessity, as well as Scotty, proved quite accurate. I was quite shocked to see Spock proving so helpless in a command role, but it did make sense that he'd not cut the mustard. His 'logic' required that the Ewoks would also think and act logically. Not to mention that he acted disturbingly rationally, in regards to his crew; though it did make sense, it certainly did not have the best effect upon his subordinates, giving them a real sense of impending failure under his wing. Ultimately, Spock ended up saving everyone (with the good fortune of the Ent leaving orbit slowly) by acting on his human half's desperation. Though extremely intelligent and the perfect man (and Vulcan) for studies, calculations, and observation, his refusal to act on his humanity hinders his leadership capability, and he just lacks that something that only Kirk can bring to the table.
Normally, I find Spock to be much more competent than McCoy, and sometimes find the latter to be rather arrogent and silly when intereacting with the former, but this episode really showed McCoy being more in the right with his being extremely, well, human. Kirk is in good hands having one on each shoulder, giving him the 3 sides to the story: Spock's, McCoy's, and the 3rd option that Kirk ends up pulling out and resolving the week's plot with.
Also, I saw The Squire of Gothos. Another one of the more comical, campy ones that was probably an excuse to use some other show's/movie's set. The Squire was a real ham and left a solid, humorous impression. I think he was some 400-500 light-years closer to Earth, though; if he was 900 away, he'd have been seeing us in the 1300s, as opposed to the 1700s-1800s, which he was emulating. Putting that aside, it was a good, funny, experience with an ending that had me laughing, even if I had reached the correct conclusion some time earlier.
-
Yeah, neither Spock nor McCoy are well suited for command, yet they're both vital in that role as support for Kirk. As the show progresses, and definitely into the movies, the three become much more interconnected. I always thought that a character dynamic such as that was what was lacking from any of the other series.
Honestly, I never much cared for TG7. I just thought it an interesting depiction of Spock. I do like TSoG, though. Trelane is a nifty character. It was never established one way or the other, but in retrospect Trelane might well have been a Q.
The next few episodes are all pretty good, but nothing's particularly noteworthy until Return of the Archons. Really a mediocre episode, but the first of several instances of Kirk using flawless logic to mindfuck a computer.
-
It was never established one way or the other, but in retrospect Trelane might well have been a Q.
I like the idea of them encountering being so far beyond us that they seem omnipotent, but it seems like they ran into omnipotent species just a little too often. Usually, there's a decent moral to the story. I like the ones where the way they treat us is a reflection of how we treat lower species on our own planet, for example. Trelane was okay because it turns out that he's fallable. Charlie X was more dangerous because he had all that power but was emotionally and socially stunted.
I think the Q in TNG, at least at first, were the most interesting, but that might be because we got to know a few of them. My favorite Q was Corbin Bernson, who SPOILER gets John DeLancie's Q stripped of his powers, but ends up giving them back because he just didn't feel like dealing with the paperwork and beauracracy later. It just shows how they take omnipotence for granted, yet still have their own problems to deal with.
-
I love McCoy, but I've never really liked his place in the "trio", and I hated his character for a long time because of that.
To me it felt like Kirk was the middle ground making the command decisions based on a combination of experience and instinct, and Spock was his "good" conscience, giving him sound logical advice as first officer, and then McCoy was the "bad" conscience, giving him his terrible narrow minded human view, when he really had zero place offering any advice to the captain, since he's just the doctor.
I love McCoy, but mostly because he's a crazy old coot, and because he continually got his ass handed to him by Spock's logical arguments, yet continued to come back for more. I love the humorous dynamic between those two. But he also occasionally annoys the crap out of me when he just gets in the way where he has no place.
There are several episodes where McCoy pesters Kirk into basically destroying a perfectly functional and pleasant civilization just because it's not exactly like Earth, when realistically these society's would most likely no longer be sustainable, because these people are left without any help. Then the crew is on their way, content that they've "helped".
I swear the reason you never hear about the Prime Directive on TOS is because on graduation from Starfleet academy, Kirk rolled up his copy and smoked it.
-
Wow, I've never heard of that interpretation. Spock as "good" and McCoy as "bad" influences. I'm pretty sure the idea is that Spock is the pure logic and reasoning while McCoy is the emotional, gut-reaction guy. And the idea was that Kirk needed both of them, because different types of advice were necessary in different situations.
McCoy advised Kirk because they're old friends. They go back years before serving on The Enterprise together, and Kirk's the captain of the flagship, so if he wants his old buddy on the bridge to bounce ideas off of, he gets it.
I do agree with you that the Prime Directive is a neat idea, but gets abused quite a bit in TOS. Pretty much in every Star Trek series, really.
-
Let's face it, the only captain who gave the slightest crap was Picard, and he enforced it to a fault at times. I'm remembering a few times where he basically said "yeah, I'd love to help you guys, but you're not warp capable, so go fuck yourselves".
Sisko broke the Prime Directive because he was a badass who did whatever he had to do to get what he needed. Janeway broke the Prime Directive because she was 70,000 light years from home and knew Starfleet couldn't do shit about it anyway.
I always hear about the intended dynamic of Kirk/Spock/McCoy, but to me it just never worked that way. Maybe the idea of McCoy worked as intended back in the 60s for those audiences, but for the present day his ideals feel so narrow minded and antiquated to me.
-
How far along are you in season 7 of DS9, now? I'm curious what you're thinking.
-
I'm literally just about to watch 7x12 - The Emperor's New Cloak.
So far my opinion of this season is pretty much as it was for S6. There hasn't been anything at all recently with the Dominion, so I'm noticing the lack of that, but aside from that I'm enjoying it.
And there's still something about Ezri that really bugs me (the acting, I mean). Is it overacted? Too ditzy and forced? Something not quite right for me. I never thought Dax was a very well thought out or utilized character anyway, but at least Terry Farrell seemed to do a much better job with what she got, plus she was way hotter. :lol
I also think the characters are spread thinner this season. They focus on a couple of characters per episode, and you basically don't see the rest. Sometimes I forget Sisko is even there. Every episode I see a character and think "oh yeah, that guy! I haven't seen them in forever...."
-
I'm probably in the minority in this but I liked Ezri a lot more than Jadzia, I think a lot of it has to do with Terry Farrell.
-
I'm probably in the minority in this but I liked Ezri a lot more than Jadzia, I think a lot of it has to do with Terry Farrell.
Character-wise I think they did more from the start to try and establish Ezri's character and persona, I just don't think she's that good of an actor at all. I think Terry Farrell was a better actor for the most part, but the character always felt kind of aimless and indecisive to me.
I think the entire Dax character was kind of wasted, and the most poorly thought out character of the show, so I don't feel too strongly either way about it.
-
Sorry, Nicole Deboer is easily more attractive! :lol She also did a good job with Ezri, in my opinion. That's just what Ezri is supposed to be like, completely lost in life and unsure of who she even is. This is another thing where when I originally watched it I felt closer to your opinion(never disliked character, but wondered if she was too over the top), but looking back I love the Ezri character. They did what they could with a one season character without rehashing the Jadzia stories. People resented the Ezri episodes during the first run because she wasn't as familiar, but I wish she'd had two or three seasons. Think of her like Bashir, he was flat out hated for a season or two, but that's what helped make him so endearing by the end.
Didn't you see Siege of AR124985128957 and In the Pale Moonlight in the last few episodes? Even if they aren't really the big picture for the war, they're great episodes to do while having the active war on the back burner. I thought those two were a fantastic sort of dual episode.
I'm probably in the minority in this but I liked Ezri a lot more than Jadzia, I think a lot of it has to do with Terry Farrell.
I agree.
-
The Siege episode was great, and I like what they've done with Nog this season. He's had some good episodes.
And I have no problem at all with the Ezri character, and I'm glad they've done something with her this season. I just get annoyed with the overacting. It's made more apparent in this episode because she's trying to play her mirror universe counterpart, with a completely different personality, and it's the exact same hammy acting. I really don't think she's up to the task of such a multi-faceted character.
And I will give you that she's cute, but Terry Farrell is definitely hotter imo (doesn't help that I hate short hair on chicks either.)
-
I did not like her in the mirror universe, either, but I still disagree on how she did for the rest of 7.
What did you think of Prodigal Daughter? It's a fairly disliked episode, but I find myself regarding it as one of my favourites from season 7.
-
I thought it was an alright episode. I certainly didn't dislike it, but I didn't think it was amazing either. I think they were due for exploring Ezri's character and back story a bit more, but the whole story felt a little over-simplified to me. And I was really hoping there would be more focus on O'Brien's storyline.
-
I like what they did with Ezri. Jadzia was the most confident one of the group. She had wisdom and experience, and could probably beat the living shit out of any of the crew short of Odo. Ezri was just lost. Young, stupid, and woefully ill-prepared for what happened to her and having to learn on the fly. Great idea. As for the actress, not really any opinion one way or the other. Like Blob, I'm not into short haired chicks, and they kind of made her look like an elf. Still, she had some cuteness to here in a goofy, tomboy kind of way.
I love McCoy, but I've never really liked his place in the "trio", and I hated his character for a long time because of that.
To me it felt like Kirk was the middle ground making the command decisions based on a combination of experience and instinct, and Spock was his "good" conscience, giving him sound logical advice as first officer, and then McCoy was the "bad" conscience, giving him his terrible narrow minded human view, when he really had zero place offering any advice to the captain, since he's just the doctor.
I love McCoy, but mostly because he's a crazy old coot, and because he continually got his ass handed to him by Spock's logical arguments, yet continued to come back for more. I love the humorous dynamic between those two. But he also occasionally annoys the crap out of me when he just gets in the way where he has no place.
Aside from their long friendship, there's also a great deal to be said for the wise and the crazy old coot perspectives. McCoy might have been irrational, but there's a role for that in humanity as well. And Kirk struggled with the prime directive plenty of times. He'd ditch it when he felt he needed to, but wasn't cavalier about it. If anything Picard was far too rigid about it (and a lot of other things).
-
Still, she had some cuteness to here in a goofy, tomboy kind of way.
That sums it up pretty well actually. :lol
Aside from their long friendship, there's also a great deal to be said for the wise and the crazy old coot perspectives. McCoy might have been irrational, but there's a role for that in humanity as well. And Kirk struggled with the prime directive plenty of times. He'd ditch it when he felt he needed to, but wasn't cavalier about it. If anything Picard was far too rigid about it (and a lot of other things).
I always felt that Kirk had enough humanity without having McCoy blaring in his ear constantly. To me he felt redundant in that role. Kirk was perfectly capable of pissing on the prime directive without Bones, in fact he managed it in pretty much every single episode. :lol
Picard was too rigid with the prime directive, but in his defense, he was actually far too lenient with it in "Justice" if you know what I mean. Why won't you die, Wesley? Why hasn't someone ejected you from a fucking airlock yet?
-
Yeah, I always figured he only intervened to save Wesley because he wanted to fuck his mom.
-
True, but here's the problem I have with that - He's friggin' Picard, and she's a ginger. He's about 5 leagues above her. I'd rather have Troi personally (at least before she had to start piling on the makeup and wearing the standard Starfleet potato sack).
I'm sure on a crew of over 1000 (or whatever it was) he could have scored much better with that sex dome on his head.
-
not sure if this has been discussed but how does everyone feel about the JJ Abrams movie?
im not a diehard trek fan but I think its absolutely awesome, I thought the casting was perfect. Makes me wonder how good the star wars prequels would have been if Abrams had a shot at it (even though its ten years later now)
-
It was enjoyable, but the storyline was full of huge plotholes, and most of the cast was wasted for quick throwaway gags (although I thought most of the casting was pretty good). I like it, but hopefully the sequel focuses less on just being an action movie.
I am excited for the next one though.
-
I liked it a lot, and I'm excited to see then next movie.
-
It's been discussed a lot. Summary of what seem to common opinions: Fun to watch, but effects and plot are too over the top/ridiculous. Too action for Star Trek, not enough sci-fi.
Personally, I liked it but felt some things were too much with the plot. Nice reboot all-in-all, I just hope they tone down some of the stunts being pulled off that make no sense in the grand scheme of Star Trek. The big action and special effects didn't bother me at all.
-
True, but here's the problem I have with that - He's friggin' Picard, and she's a ginger. He's about 5 leagues above her. I'd rather have Troi personally (at least before she had to start piling on the makeup and wearing the standard Starfleet potato sack).
I'm sure on a crew of over 1000 (or whatever it was) he could have scored much better with that sex dome on his head.
I wouldn't even ask an ensign to bang Troi. Horrible, horrible woman. And the SF uniform was actually a huge improvement for her. It's her whinyness that's a problem, not her looks.
not sure if this has been discussed but how does everyone feel about the JJ Abrams movie?
Here's what I said about it last time this came up:
As for the reboot: J.J Abrams must die. I really want to like it more than I do. I think they could be onto something with it. The casting was great. I liked the story and even Captain Nero. I don't have a problem with the new timeline, although multiple canons will get confusing after a while. It was just a horrible mess of story telling. Abram's entire plan seemed to be throwback references and action sequences. A lot of the references were actually pretty amusing, but got stale fairly quickly. As for the action sequences, much like plenty of other modern action flicks, so chaotic that they made no sense whatsoever. I don't understand why they spend 20 million dollars on a CGI scene that happens so fast you can't even tell who's shooting at what.
And I think that's largely a function of what I dislike most about Abram's style with this. It's shot to appear like you're in the middle of it. It's Star Trek for the realty television segment. Hand held cameras, shaking all hell over the place, and multiple lens flairs in every scene, as if they had no control over the lighting. I want to see the story unfold, not be a part of it. It used to be that immersion came from the story, and good filmmakers knew that their role should be to stay the fuck out the way. Shame that's no longer the case.
The first thing I did when I finished 2009 was look to see if Abrams was directing the next one. Sadly, he is. Moreover, I'd bet good money they make it in 3d. The next step in making the telling of the story more important than the story itself. Sigh.
-
True, but here's the problem I have with that - He's friggin' Picard, and she's a ginger. He's about 5 leagues above her. I'd rather have Troi personally (at least before she had to start piling on the makeup and wearing the standard Starfleet potato sack).
I'm sure on a crew of over 1000 (or whatever it was) he could have scored much better with that sex dome on his head.
I wouldn't even ask an ensign to bang Troi. Horrible, horrible woman. And the SF uniform was actually a huge improvement for her. It's her whinyness that's a problem, not her looks.
:lol Let's put it this way - your options are basically Troi, Crusher, or Yarr. I don't know about you, but the thought of the other two never once crossed my mind.
And I want Troi to sense my shame.
-
What are you racist against polish people? What about Pulaski? :rollin :rollin
-
As for the reboot: J.J Abrams must die. I really want to like it more than I do. I think they could be onto something with it. The casting was great. I liked the story and even Captain Nero. I don't have a problem with the new timeline, although multiple canons will get confusing after a while. It was just a horrible mess of story telling. Abram's entire plan seemed to be throwback references and action sequences. A lot of the references were actually pretty amusing, but got stale fairly quickly. As for the action sequences, much like plenty of other modern action flicks, so chaotic that they made no sense whatsoever. I don't understand why they spend 20 million dollars on a CGI scene that happens so fast you can't even tell who's shooting at what.
That is as good of an assessment of ST2009 as I have ever read about any movie.
And I think that's largely a function of what I dislike most about Abram's style with this. It's shot to appear like you're in the middle of it. It's Star Trek for the realty television segment. Hand held cameras, shaking all hell over the place, and multiple lens flairs in every scene, as if they had no control over the lighting. I want to see the story unfold, not be a part of it. It used to be that immersion came from the story, and good filmmakers knew that their role should be to stay the fuck out the way. Shame that's no longer the case.
That is an interesting analysis. I never thought of it that way, but you are right on with how things seem to be filmed nowadays.
-
And I want Troi to sense my shame.
That really floored me. :rollin
The only thing she'd sense out of me would definitely give her Death Wish III flashbacks.
-
I thought it was an alright episode. I certainly didn't dislike it, but I didn't think it was amazing either. I think they were due for exploring Ezri's character and back story a bit more, but the whole story felt a little over-simplified to me. And I was really hoping there would be more focus on O'Brien's storyline.
O'Brien's story was actually a very late change/addition to the story, but it was a nice connection to an older, popular episode. It was far from the first major change, though. Prodigal Daughter actually started out as a Sisko time travel story! :lol The writing team apparently HATED this episode.
-
May be because it was the first Star Trek related thing I saw, but I really enjoyed ST-2009. Don't get me wrong, I realize very well that the story is a sort of mess, it's full of gratuitous action scenes, and it's really cheesy, overall. However, I found it very, very, entertaining, in spite of, and because of (to an extent) those reasons. It isn't very Star Trek like, knowing now what TOS is really like, but it's a film I'm always up for watching, if it's on, and I'm eagerly awaiting the sequel.
Also, today I saw Arena, which I recall The Bart praising. Kirk is the most able (of the 3 leads) to hold up an episode solo and it really shows here. He really gives a solid fight against the Gorn, takes some blows, realistically, and then, of course, thinks up a solution to the conflict, using his knowledge to defeat his opponent and letting his humanity spare the creature. McCoy is small doses is how he's best served, like here. That look of approval and pat he gives Kirk at the end is, IMO, one of his best moments. Just works. The message here, though pretty obvious, is a good message and is put through well enough.
Definitely seeing more and better good eps, lately.
Also, regarding the McCoy thing, I feel he is a necessisary part of the id-ego-super ego trio thing. I mean, he's easily less useful to the ship than Kirk and Spock, has a smaller role in the plots, and is a good deal less competent, but the man has his moments. They don't seem to be super common, but without him, the Enterprise wouldn't have necessarily made it through in one piece. There are times, though, where I really do wonder what the hell he's doing around there, besides being Kirk's drinking buddy. :P
-
Don't think I praised it. I recall BVD appreciating the campiness of it, though. I'd consider it a good episode, though. Watched it the other day, in fact. Shame the Metron was such a sissy, though.
Looks like you're got about 10 episodes left this season and 3 of them are among the very best they did. A couple more rate as excellent, though a step below.
-
Also, today I saw Arena, which I recall The Bart praising. Kirk is the most able (of the 3 leads) to hold up an episode solo and it really shows here. He really gives a solid fight against the Gorn, takes some blows, realistically, and then, of course, thinks up a solution to the conflict, using his knowledge to defeat his opponent and letting his humanity spare the creature. McCoy is small doses is how he's best served, like here. That look of approval and pat he gives Kirk at the end is, IMO, one of his best moments. Just works. The message here, though pretty obvious, is a good message and is put through well enough.
Also, regarding the McCoy thing, I feel he is a necessisary part of the id-ego-super ego trio thing. I mean, he's easily less useful to the ship than Kirk and Spock, has a smaller role in the plots, and is a good deal less competent, but the man has his moments. They don't seem to be super common, but without him, the Enterprise wouldn't have necessarily made it through in one piece. There are times, though, where I really do wonder what the hell he's doing around there, besides being Kirk's drinking buddy. :P
Well, he is the ship's doctor. Sure, he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time in sick bay, but he has an actual job. I guess that's kinda what I was getting at when I said that he gets to hang around on the bridge because he and the captain are old buds. Any other captain would tell him to get his ass back to sick bay and read up on some journals or inventory the meds or something.
Trivia: "Arena" was adapted from a short story by Fredric Brown. There were a number of TOS scripts that came from old-school sci-fi; I know I've seen Harlan Ellison and others in the writing credits. Anyway, I'd seen the episode in its original broadcast, then years later came across the short story in some anthology, but didn't make the connection. Then I caught the episode again later and noticed the title and it all clicked. It's basically the same story, except that the alien in the original was not a Gorn, but a truly alien creature the name of whose race we never actually learn. But the idea is the same. One representative from each species, and the winner's race gets to live. And some ominpotent race acting as "referee" over the entire thing. (Once again, the omnipotent race thing.)
-
O'Brien's story was actually a very late change/addition to the story, but it was a nice connection to an older, popular episode. It was far from the first major change, though. Prodigal Daughter actually started out as a Sisko time travel story! :lol The writing team apparently HATED this episode.
Well that is interesting! This is why I love reading the memory-alpha.org articles on each episode, although I've been trying to avoid it a bit recently because of their blatant spoilers for later episodes.
-
For the longest time I thought City on the Edge of Forever was highly overrated. Every time I see it, though, I think it more worthy of the praise heaped upon it. Just watched it again, and despite the customary plot holes, it really is a damn fine piece of work. I can still name plenty of episodes I enjoy more, but I don't think I could really argue with all the people who say it's the best thing they ever did.
-
Well, you guys have done the impossible, you've made me start watching TOS (thank you Netflix). I'd never seen "The Cage" and it was... much different than Star Trek proper ended up being. Majel Barrett sure was a bit of a hottie back in the day though.
-
Well, you guys have done the impossible, you've made me start watching TOS (thank you Netflix). I'd never seen "The Cage" and it was... much different than Star Trek proper ended up being. Majel Barrett sure was a bit of a hottie back in the day though.
Really? Ew. You can have her. :lol
For the longest time I thought City on the Edge of Forever was highly overrated. Every time I see it, though, I think it more worthy of the praise heaped upon it. Just watched it again, and despite the customary plot holes, it really is a damn fine piece of work. I can still name plenty of episodes I enjoy more, but I don't think I could really argue with all the people who say it's the best thing they ever did.
I thought it was a great from the first time I saw it. I really love the Kirk/Spock dynamic in it, and seeing Spock try to adapt to Earth in that time period. And I'm admittedly a sucker for time travel in any form.
-
Well, you guys have done the impossible, you've made me start watching TOS (thank you Netflix). I'd never seen "The Cage" and it was... much different than Star Trek proper ended up being. Majel Barrett sure was a bit of a hottie back in the day though.
Really? Ew. You can have her. :lol
For the longest time I thought City on the Edge of Forever was highly overrated. Every time I see it, though, I think it more worthy of the praise heaped upon it. Just watched it again, and despite the customary plot holes, it really is a damn fine piece of work. I can still name plenty of episodes I enjoy more, but I don't think I could really argue with all the people who say it's the best thing they ever did.
I thought it was a great from the first time I saw it. I really love the Kirk/Spock dynamic in it, and seeing Spock try to adapt to Earth in that time period. And I'm admittedly a sucker for time travel in any form.
I concur on Majel Barrett. She's about as much presence as a wet noodle and a personality to match. She isn't going to appear much more in the 60-odd episodes ahead of me, is she?
In other news, saw Tomorrow is Yesterday. Nice to see time travel being played with again after its having been discovered some episodes back, even if they weren't intending to do anything of the sort. Like some of the other ones that were an excuse to use other sets, it wasn't super action-packed, nor grand in proportions, but the plot had some thrill. The pilot guy was an amiable guest star and likable throughout, aside from that weird outburst.
Overall, a good episode. Not a favorite, but it's all positives.
Court Martial sounds intriguing. Is it the thrill that the title would seem to suggest?
-
Court Martial sounds intriguing. Is it the thrill that the title would seem to suggest?
No. But it's not a bad episode.
-
I remember enjoying Star Trek 2009, but it's not aging well. As stated the story is a mess. I rather liked the alternative timeline and what they did with it, but Nero was wasted, Kirk was an asshole and completely unlikable and alternated between being a genius and being reckless and dumb, Spock was way overdone and I hated the fact that Scotty doesn't appear in the movie until more than half way through. Kirk's rise to the captain's chair is on par with all of the "what on earth is Starfleet thinking" situations that happen throughout the tv series, (why on earth are you sending a Federation captain on a spy mission? why do they send only 4 people into a hostile situation? Why in one instance in going into the neutral zone you have a backup plan and the next instance you are a sitting duck?) All in all, it was like an over-iced birthday cake. Lots of action sequences, glitz and flair with very little substantial stuff.
-
Kirk was an asshole and completely unlikable and alternated between being a genius and being reckless and dumb,
Isn't that in essence what Kirk is? :lol
-
Yeah, but Shat-Kirk has charisma. He does object-able things at times, but he does them with grace. And not in every other scene or so. The better part of the time, Shat-Kirk comes across as a believable leader figure, with his occasional missteps ending up making him come across as liable to human error. In addition, he comes across as an affable figure who cares about his crew. Very human. Granted, I've seen few of the incredibly stupid episodes.
Kirk-09 was very lucky to have survived 15 minutes on the Enterprise.
-
He sure seemed to have charisma when he was hitting on Uhura at the bar. It's a different take folks since his dad died he's a bit different . Get over it.
-
Kirk was an asshole and completely unlikable and alternated between being a genius and being reckless and dumb,
Isn't that in essence what Kirk is? :lol
I don't remember the episodes very well but I do remember the movies from start to finish, and Kirk was never reckless or dumb. He was resourceful though. He had the ability to take a hopeless situation and turn it around it was almost always very practical. In Wrath of Khan he used Starfleet protocol against Khan. In Search of Spock he turned a surrender into a massacre. As the series went on he became less and less practical and more technological. But with the 2009 it seemed Kirk was acting completely at random and getting very lucky at each decision he made. Now granted this is a "new" Kirk. A Kirk that grew up primarily without a father it seems. Now this was fine in a sense. I accepted this "new" Kirk at the start but after the movie was over I was thinking to myself if Kirk ever grew up from that and learned anything. If he did, it happened without any mention of it. I suppose Kirk can be reckless, but not this reckless with abandonment. I think back to Luke Skywalker and how essentially he was reckless with abandonment but his character was far more likable. There was an innocence to Luke that did not exist in Kirk. There was a realistic approach to authority that did not exist with Kirk. and when Luke messed up, it cost him dearly. I didn't see that happen with Kirk.
Oh well. :D
-
Yes because he never put together Uhura's transmission and that they we're going into a trap that happened to his father and Pike reminded him in his dissertation. So Kirk really seemed dumb.
-
He sure seemed to have charisma when he was hitting on Uhura at the bar. It's a different take folks since his dad died he's a bit different . Get over it.
We are having a discussion. Get over it. :P
-
I don't know as I'd call 09 Kirk dumb, although he certainly made some dipshit decisions. Vivace does raise a very good point, though. There are two very large differences between the two kirks. New Kirk is arrogant to the point of being completely unlikeable. Eating the apple during the Kobyashi Maru simulation really makes you just want to kill him. Original Kirk was the most confident man in the galaxy, but never so arrogant. Perhaps "I don't like to lose" during Khan, but that was patently bad ass. Typically, he was completely sure of himself, but never one to rub it in your face. New Kirk wanted everybody to know how brilliant he was, and he wasn't.
The other thing is that original Kirk was singlemindedly devoted to his ship and crew. No matter what was going on, those two things were always his primary concern. I never got the impression that new Kirk had any devotion whatsoever to the ship and crew. I'm sure he'd be annoyed to see them blown to bits, but unlike Shatner's Kirk, they were never driving motivations for his actions.
These two things speak volumes about their respective leadership. Shatner exuded confidence for the sake of his crew, who were of paramount importance. New Kirk just wanted to show off.
-
Whenever I read people complaining they always seem to forget it's a reboot. I can see complaining if the same character from the same series or same actor in the series changes how the character is in essence but this is a reboot and of course the different path this Kirk had to go with loosing his father, which he had, drastically changes who he is in this reboot.
I get that people may not like "this" version of Kirk, but I for one, am happy they took a different slant and made it fresh again. that is what they were going for in the first place.
-
I see your point, but there's only so much you can change and still call it the same franchise; rebooted or otherwise. If they'd made Spock a woman would it still be Star Trek rebooted?
-
I see your point, but there's only so much you can change and still call it the same franchise; rebooted or otherwise. If they'd made Spock a woman would it still be Star Trek rebooted?
I dunno, ask Starbuck :neverusethis:
-
I see your point, but there's only so much you can change and still call it the same franchise; rebooted or otherwise. If they'd made Spock a woman would it still be Star Trek rebooted?
That a little bit of a stretch isn't it?! I mean, he's not that far different from the original Kirk. Hell, you can say the same for Spock's character. They obviously wanted to tweak the characters into some new, fresh. I have no problem thinking both Kirk and Spock ended up this way because of the alternate timeline.
I can see your side that it's different from the old characters but it's no surprise they wanted something new for this franchise and looking at the numbers this movie did and the reviews, they had it right.
-
I don't have a problem with them changing stuff, but I agree with El Barto. The problem isn't that Kirk is different, the problem is that they failed to make us care.
Original Kirk was motivated by duty to Starfleet, and cared for his ship and crew more than himself, and he proved that numerous times. Even though he was confident and a little sleazy, his motiviations were always clear to be admirable.
New Kirk was motivated by ego, and didn't earn his way up the ranks. He was a spoiled brat who was basically handed everything on a silver platter because Starfleet was apparently desperate, and then got given command of their prize ship. It didn't even make sense.
They really spent too much time intentionally forcing down our throats that new Kirk was supposed to be a rebel badass. Spock had a great backstory about his human/Vulcan heritage and how it shaped him. Kirk got a backstory about being a dick and destroying a car because he was a rebellious little jerk.
-
Alright, that's a great way of putting it. I think the problem is that we've had close to 40 years of Kirks back story on why he became who he is while the movie had 2 hours to do so. It's not like they had a whole series to give us the new Kirk back story but yes, he is a rebel badass. I just don't think any of the characters had enough time to really flush out the characters.
For me, These movies are still better.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
-
That's the problem with a movie as opposed to a series; they only had time to flesh out a couple of the characters. The rest were just one liners and that's it.
Chekov had a quick joke about not being able to pronounce V's. Sulu had a couple of lines about not being able to go into warp, and one fight scene. Scotty got a bit of time, but all he did on the Enterprise was have a pointless intro scene in the brewery (just one example of the mindless action in the movie that could have been taken out for some character moments or plot), and then give his punchline at the end.
As the sequel doesn't need to take 1/3 of the movie before they even get on the ship, they'll hopefully have time for the characters to form a dynamic, rather than just padding it out with action scenes that don't serve the story at all.
This is why Trek has always worked better on television imo.
-
That's the problem with first movies. They always need to address the characters. The second movie always is the better movie.
Ex: Superman 1 & 2.
-
I'm hoping for a new Enterprise in the next film. :)
I know it's too soon for the Constitution II refit but a modded version of the Enterprise 2009 would be good.
Or at least destroy it in 2 and have a new Enterprise right at the end to carry over into the 3rd movie ( assuming there is one )
-
I think I read something about them possibly changing the sets (such as the awful brewery that was supposed to be an engine room somehow), but I think it's highly unlikely there will be any major changes to the ship. Maybe some minor details, but not a "refit" as such.
Being an alternate universe, they could easily justify a quick refit if they wanted to though.
-
I don't mind having the same one for the next movie but i'd like to see a souped up / new design in the third film.
-
Where the hell is the Jeffries tube and why hasn't it shown up in the movies?! :lol
-
Maybe Matt Jeffries wanted more royalties :neverusethis:
-
That's the problem with a movie as opposed to a series; they only had time to flesh out a couple of the characters. The rest were just one liners and that's it.
Chekov had a quick joke about not being able to pronounce V's. Sulu had a couple of lines about not being able to go into warp, and one fight scene. Scotty got a bit of time, but all he did on the Enterprise was have a pointless intro scene in the brewery (just one example of the mindless action in the movie that could have been taken out for some character moments or plot), and then give his punchline at the end.
As the sequel doesn't need to take 1/3 of the movie before they even get on the ship, they'll hopefully have time for the characters to form a dynamic, rather than just padding it out with action scenes that don't serve the story at all.
This is why Trek has always worked better on television imo.
Maybe this is me being my cynical old self, but I don't see it happening. We're in an era where a movie such as this can make $100m and be deemed a flop, and the masses that'll make up the difference between one and two hundred million want to see explosions and lasers, not character development. We'll see a little more fleshing out of the characters, but not much.
One of the things that intrigued me about the sequel was something I read about the writers trying to determine if there'd be a villain or if the antagonist would be the great unknown. I hadn't considered that before, but quite a few of the original episodes (and the first movie) dealt with "a thing out there" which is what provided the tension. I watched The Immunity Syndrome last night, and it's a perfect example. The entire episode was spent trying to figure out WTF was killing them. This is yet another thing that I think is a relic of the past. American audiences want a bad guy explaining what's happening all the time. A mystery doesn't really fit in with the gee-whiz action flicks we get nowadays.
Alas, they're not making Star Trek movies for the old school Star Trek fans like us. There's just not enough money in it. They make Star Trek movies for the masses, and occasionally they'll throw us a bone if it can be done without breaking up the action and boring people by making them think.
-
I'm actually going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one until I see it. I don't think they had much choice but to make a mass appeal movie for the first one. The franchise was dead, and it needed a solid injection of casual fans brought in if it had any chance of success. Now that it's proven itself, I think they would have a bit more freedom to take a gamble with a more science fictiony story.
From recent interviews, it sounds like JJ and writers might not entirely dismiss what Trek fans think, and have taken on board some of the criticisms of the first one. Whether or not that really translates to a different movie this time around is anyone's guess, but I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. I'm sure there's a middle ground here somewhere where they can please the average moviegoer, while actually giving it a plot. I don't expect character development, as that's just not going to happen in a movie. But I'll settle for a plot that isn't full of holes.
-
O'Brien's story was actually a very late change/addition to the story, but it was a nice connection to an older, popular episode. It was far from the first major change, though. Prodigal Daughter actually started out as a Sisko time travel story! :lol The writing team apparently HATED this episode.
Well that is interesting! This is why I love reading the memory-alpha.org articles on each episode, although I've been trying to avoid it a bit recently because of their blatant spoilers for later episodes.
Yup, great site once you don't need to worry about spoilers. It's definitely a nice compliment during a rewatch.
-
I'm a huge trek fan and i loved the 2009 movie so i'm happy :D
-
Where the hell is the Jeffries tube and why hasn't it shown up in the movies?! :lol
The Wrath of Khan had a deleted scene in a Jeffries tube, and it's included in the version they show on TV sometimes. After Khan attacks the Enterprise, Kirk and Spock have a brief conversation in a tube on the way somewhere (the turbolifts are offline) and I think that's the scene where Kirk is telling Spock that the younger Dr. Marcus is his son.
-
You know. I do have that and haven't watched the deleted scene in 10 years. I will take a look. Thanks!
-
It's after the "two hours which seem like days" when Kirk gets back on the ship. Kirk gets beamed back aboard and of course wants to head straight to the bridge, but turbolifts are offline, so they have to go through the tubes. Kirk asks Spock what's actually working, and Spock says "Not much, Admiral" or something like that. I'm pretty sure that's when he also tells Spock about David, but I haven't watched it in a while, either. I do know that they have a conversation while climbing through the Jeffries tubes.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1chtJQFQNs&feature=related
-
Kirk tells Spock "That man is my son" to which Spock replies, in perfect Spockian laconic style "fascinating."
And LOL at this from wikipedia:
Another in-joke reportedly appearing in the Jefferies tube sets on the original Star Trek series are labels on the pipes marked "G.N.D.N.". This stands for "Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing." The labels are usually written so small as to be invisible to the audience, but can be seen in certain scenes from the Star Trek films.
-
Ha ha, I should've known that the man with Khan as his avatar would know all about it!
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1chtJQFQNs&feature=related
Funny how many of those are from TNG :lol
-
Another in-joke reportedly appearing in the Jefferies tube sets on the original Star Trek series are labels on the pipes marked "G.N.D.N.". This stands for "Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing." The labels are usually written so small as to be invisible to the audience, but can be seen in certain scenes from the Star Trek films.
I was going to post that :)
I actually had that Technical Guide to the Enterprise D book . That's how I know the name Matt Jeffries etc...
It explains how warp drive is theoretically possible ( while not physically possible ) and all that kind of stuff.
Along with having every Enterprise design in detail from the old TOS connie up to Galaxy class D etc etc..
-
Another in-joke reportedly appearing in the Jefferies tube sets on the original Star Trek series are labels on the pipes marked "G.N.D.N.". This stands for "Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing." The labels are usually written so small as to be invisible to the audience, but can be seen in certain scenes from the Star Trek films.
There's a lot of stuff like that listed in the Star Trek Technical Manual released in the 90s. I have it somewhere.
-
Trekkies Bash New Star Trek Film As 'Fun, Watchable' (https://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2009/05/the-onion-trekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable.html)
-
Calling a film "Fun" and "Watchable" is bashing it?
-
Calling a film "Fun" and "Watchable" is bashing it?
You didn't click on the link.
-
:lol :lol :lol
I remember that story coming out and laughing so hard. Then I saw the movie and understood why Trekkies could be upset. :-\
-
Don't know if the subject of the TOS remasters has come up here, yet. While I was happy to see them get remastered to look better on big screens, I didn't like the idea of revamping the special effects with CGI. Honestly, though, I think they've done a pretty good job of minimizing the impact. As they've been quite judicious in what they've tinkered with, I've been fairly pleased with the results. I watched The Doomsday Machine last night, which was the episode that got the most treatment, and a lot of it was really spectacular. Since the tension from the episode is largely internal, the new and improved ships only accented the scenes, rather than impacting them.
(https://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110323003310/memoryalpha/en/images/c/c6/USS_Constellation_remastered.jpg)
(https://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/5/5e/USS_Enterprise_tractored_into_planet_killer%2C_remastered.jpg)
It's amazing how much of a difference it makes not being constrained to showing those models only at direct angles. That seems to be the thing that was altered the most, and while there's plenty of camp and cheese in TOS, those matted models were just ugly without the quirkiness.
-
Wow! I'd heard about the TOS episodes being "Lucasized" and was not in favor of it, but this looks really good.
Calling a film "Fun" and "Watchable" is bashing it?
You didn't click on the link.
Um... guilty as charged.
-
Wow! I'd heard about the TOS episodes being "Lucasized" and was not in favor of it, but this looks really good.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it Lucasized (though I considered the analogy when making that post). Lucas' changes altered the stories in many cases. The main thing they did with the remasters was to make them presentable for HD (and they did a great job). The special effects changes are usually only 4 or 5 shots per episode. Planets look more realistic, exterior shots are now CGI, and phasers and whatnot are CGI as well. There are also some more subtle differences. I watched The Ultimate Computer the other day and the freighter that M5 blew to bits was no longer the re-used Botany Bay, for example.
The Ultimate Computer is actually a pretty nifty example. A lot of the tension in that episode is exterior. There was something ominous about the 4 starships approaching in a box like that. I was concerned that they'd muck that up adding lots of maneuvering about and such. While they did alter the battle scenes quite a lot, they still kept them fairly honest to the original. Originally I thought they were going to make these all like TNG, but they managed to be very faithful to TOS canon.
-
Wow, that's good to know, and it's making me reconsider picking up TOS on Blu-ray. Thanks for the info.
"Lucasized" is too strong of a word, I suppose, as it carries with it the connotation of taking it too far. But when I first heard that they were "updating" the episodes for the big high-def release, I know I wasn't the only one who was worried about the results. It would seem that the guys doing the restorations/updates were well aware that their work would fall under serious scrutiny. Star Trek fans are at least as rabid as Star Wars fans, and if they'd truly been Lucasized, there would have been much screaming. I just like using the word because it's awesome how people know exactly what it means. :biggrin:
-
I have series 1 TOS Remastered on DVD. Still need to get 2 & 3.
:omg: EEK didnt realise Space Seed was on this set !! *watches*
Not a bad episode ! :)
-
I have series 1 TOS Remastered on DVD. Still need to get 2 & 3.
:omg: EEK didnt realise Space Seed was on this set !! *watches*
Not a bad episode ! :)
Yeah, Montalban is awesome.
-
Wow. The Way To Eden is painful, just painful.
rumborak
-
Wow. The Way To Eden is painful, just painful.
rumborak
:lol Would it have something to do with the bad space hippies and padding out half the episode with awful '60s folk music?
-
It was the 60's. In the context of the times, it wasn't really that bad, just a bit cliché. The problem is that now it's cliché and dated. Combine that with the inherent cheese factor, and... yeah, painful is a good word for it.
-
I'm now up to the finale of DS9, which I'll watch tomorrow when I have time. Then I just have about 6 more episodes of TOS to finish off, then I'll have officially seen every single one of the 700+ live action episode of Star Trek. :hat
I don't really care about the animated series, but I might watch it just out of boredom and curiosity and completeness. Anyone else seen it to comment?
-
I saw a bit of the animated series. It's BEYOND dated. If they had done it with good animation, good acting and so forth it could have been great. I don't remember the stories being that bad.
-
The stories were fine for the most part, and most of the main cast came back and did the voices. The animation was not great, though. I'd say it was the weakest part.
-
Yeah, can't say much good about the animated series. You kinda expect Scooby Doo to show up any second.
rumborak
-
I'm now up to the finale of DS9, which I'll watch tomorrow when I have time. Then I just have about 6 more episodes of TOS to finish off, then I'll have officially seen every single one of the 700+ live action episode of Star Trek. :hat
Is this your first time seeing most of DS9? How'd it get left until the end?
I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on s6 vs s7 and the final arc. What You Leave Behind, though, great episode. Damn thing still made me cry all though the last 30 minutes or so on my third time watching the series. :lol I assume you have the full original version. The syndication split cuts out one of the more memorable scenes ...the laughing scene.
The stories were fine for the most part, and most of the main cast came back and did the voices. The animation was not great, though. I'd say it was the weakest part.
Some of the Klingon characters in TOS and DS9 had their animated series stories alluded to in DS9, I believe. If nothing else, the series was never discarded within the franchise.
-
I'm now up to the finale of DS9, which I'll watch tomorrow when I have time. Then I just have about 6 more episodes of TOS to finish off, then I'll have officially seen every single one of the 700+ live action episode of Star Trek. :hat
Is this your first time seeing most of DS9? How'd it get left until the end?
I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on s6 vs s7 and the final arc. What You Leave Behind, though, great episode. Damn thing still made me cry all though the last 30 minutes or so on my third time watching the series. :lol I assume you have the full original version. The syndication split cuts out one of the more memorable scenes ...the laughing scene.
Yep, I'm watching the DVD episodes, not the syndicated edits. This was my first time seeing any DS9 at all, so I've watched it beginning to end over the past few months.
S7 felt like it really let the Dominion war slip into the background a lot more than S6. S6 did a better job of keeping it on your mind and having it play at least some minor role in most episodes. S7 felt like more "filler", although I don't mean as a big negative, as DS9's "filler" episodes were still great.
And What You Leave Behind was just about perfect.
-
As much as I love the last half of Season 7, that first episode that kicks off the arc I really started to hate it. Back in the day, when DS9 was still being shown quite a bit on various channels, it seems that I'd always catch that episode everytime I'd watch.
"Oh hey, cool, DS9 is on... oh damnit, not this one again."
-
I was wondering today, whether the actors in hindsight saw their Star Trek stints as a blessing or a curse.
I mean sure, they played characters on a wildly popular TV show, but it also meant their career received the kiss of death. Other than Patrick Stewart I can't think of anyone who really escaped their Star Trek typecast.
rumborak
-
I was wondering today, whether the actors in hindsight saw their Star Trek stints as a blessing or a curse.
I mean sure, they played characters on a wildly popular TV show, but it also meant their career received the kiss of death. Other than Patrick Stewart I can't think of anyone who really escaped their Star Trek typecast.
rumborak
If you watch The Captains, that Shatner directed documentary, he and Patrick discuss that near the end. Essentially they say the same thing....
"I know that fi I were to die right now, I'd be known largely for my role on Star Trek and not much else......and I'm ok with that"
However, I know people like Brent Spiner aren't too thrilled about it.
-
Most of the ones I've heard talk favorably about it. For better or worse, many of them probably obtain career stability from the franchise. They're invited to conventions, they get cameo spots, and probably get some sort of royalty check. Their name recognition shoots up from what it had been. Maybe a few think they could have done better, but I imagine most are happy to have gotten such a break. You also hear a lot of them talk about having formed lifelong bonds because of the shows.
Aside from Spiner, the other one I've heard the most negativity from is Robert Beltran. I think he, rightfully so, thought the Voyager writing team sucked ass in making the characters interesting, not only for fans but for the actors.
-
Aside from Spiner, the other one I've heard the most negativity from is Robert Beltran. I think he, rightfully so, thought the Voyager writing team sucked ass in making the characters interesting, not only for fans but for the actors.
Although to be fair, considering how terrible an actor he was, Beltran was lucky as hell to have such a sweet steady gig for 7 years. :lol
-
In Shatner's book he mentions how great it felt the first time someone recognized him in public and instead of saying "Hey, Kirk!" said "Hey, TJ Hooker!"
At least regarding the TOS actors, hard to think of their roles as a 'kiss of death' since other than De Kelley and Shatner, they were largely unknowns, and it assured them roles in 6 major films, along with speaking appearances and other stuff yorost mentioned. Sure, their roles didn't knock down many major doors for them with regards to future projects. But I think in an occupation with a 95% unemployment rate, you gotta appreciate what you can get.
It would be interesting, though, to go back to 1966, and say to them "You'll be in this quirky show for 2.5 seasons. it won't do very well, and won't make you much money. But will gradually pick up steam through syndication, and between 1979 and 1991 you'll be in 6 follow-up films, and you will from then on always be associated with these roles. Sign here?"
-
I think the problem (as most of them would see it) is that an actor wants to act. They want to play different roles, explore their art, and most of all, they just want to perform. Showing up at conferences for the next 30 years might be decent money, I don't know, but I'm sure they'd rather be working in their craft, not living off of something they did a lifetime ago.
-
Yeah, I have a hard time feeling bad for Data. The guy likely made out like a bandit and everybody loves his character. If his interest is with acting, he can certainly do stage work, and if his interest is in making money being an actor, he's already done much, much better than most will.
Now, Sulu and Chekov are a different story. I doubt they made nearly as much money due to the era in which they worked, and they're typecast as hell. The Voyager cast probably didn't get rich either. The good news is that most of those guys get to direct a few episodes, which gives them experience they can use. Wouldn't surprise me if half of those guys are quite comfortable directing TV shows nowadays.
In Shatner's book he mentions how great it felt the first time someone recognized him in public and instead of saying "Hey, Kirk!" said "Hey, TJ Hooker!"
Shatner's an interesting case since the Shatner persona is much larger than the Kirk one. If he's typecast, it's as himself, not Kirk.
-
Well let's see.
Robert Picardo seems to be doing just fine for himself, sure he'll never win an Oscar, but he'll always been a favorite in anything he does, and he does plenty.
Johnathan Frakes has become a rather successful TV director, he admits he really isn't much of an actor and has found his calling.
Roxanne Dawson and LeVar Burton have also become directors, and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves as well.
Michael Dorn....well, yea.
The rest of them have little roles here and there in Sci-Fi shows, for the most part. I've seen them appear in Stargate, Eureka, Warehouse 13, Heroes etc.
Of course most of the people on Voyager were just terrible actors to begin with, and their lack of career probably has nothing to do with Star Trek.
-
Nicole Deboer was main cast on The Dead Zone, a very successful cable show for six seasons.
Terry Farrell was main cast on Becker, a hit while she was on it.
Patrick Stewart has starred in large films.
Avery Brooks is a tenured professor before and after his Hawk and Sisko roles. Hard to fault that, he just wasn't really into having a film career first.
-
Jeri Ryan has done pretty well since Voyager too.
-
You also have guys like Scott Bakula, Rene Auberjonois, and Andrew Robinson, who already had established careers with popular roles. Star Trek was something more for them, none was in serious danger of being typecast by their roles.
-
That's the thing, though. If they had an established career before Star Trek, then they'll probably be okay afterwards. Robert Picardo was and will always be a great character actor. Patrick Stewart wasn't exactly huge before TNG, but he was known, and did a lot of stage work. Scott Bakula was a household name already.
But overall, considering how many actors in total there have been in the various Star Trek shows, I think it's fair to say that most of them have not exactly gone on to great success as actors. Nicole de Boer, Terry Farrell, and Jeri Ryan all have the "physical" aspect going for them, and let's face it, that is often enough to get steady work.
-
It isn't like Farrel, Deboer, or Ryan are the only attractive women in the acting industry. They landed roles in shows that became successful, it isn't fair to downplay that simply because they're attractive. Maybe Star Trek helped land the part, maybe their attractiveness helped land the part, but the shows weren't automatically popular.
Heck, Becker tanked after Farrel was controversially fired.
Deboer was one of only two main cast members in every season of The Dead Zone. ...season six moved most of the cast to guest appearances, partly to focus on Deboer's character.
-
My point is that most of the former Star Trek actors have not gone on to anything like thriving careers, but of those who have had decent success, three of them are females with impressive physical attributes. I'm not that familiar with Nicole de Boer, but I know that both Terry Farrel's and Jeri Ryan's acting chops are regularly questioned, or at least how important they are compared to how they look.
It's all pretty much moot anyway. Star Trek is not about world-class acting performances. It was always at its best when telling a good and meaningful story. If you got some decent acting along the way, it was a plus.
-
Shatner's an interesting case since the Shatner persona is much larger than the Kirk one. If he's typecast, it's as himself, not Kirk.
I feel the same way about Adam West.
-
My point is that most of the former Star Trek actors have not gone on to anything like thriving careers, but of those who have had decent success, three of them are females with impressive physical attributes. I'm not that familiar with Nicole de Boer, but I know that both Terry Farrel's and Jeri Ryan's acting chops are regularly questioned, or at least how important they are compared to how they look.
It's all pretty much moot anyway. Star Trek is not about world-class acting performances. It was always at its best when telling a good and meaningful story. If you got some decent acting along the way, it was a plus.
Sure, but the men are at a disadvantage since so many of the successful bunch were successful prior to Star Trek. I would count Stewart as Star Trek being his break out role, though, Auberjonois, Bakula, and Brooks already had popular roles prior to Trek. Plus Brooks never had a strong interest in film being his main career. He never shied away from saying he wasn't interested in sticking out DS9 because he didn't like the grind. He stuck it out because he thought it was important to keep a commitment and wanted his children to understand that.
...and criticize Farrell all people want, but she was one of the main cogs for Becker working. She couldn't have been too bad.
-
On season 5 of Voyager now, episodes are definitely getting more interesting now. Not too excited about the addition of the kid though, which seemed a blatant excuse to redo some TNG plots ("oh no, my mummy might be dead!")
rumborak
-
On season 5 of Voyager now, episodes are definitely getting more interesting now. Not too excited about the addition of the kid though, which seemed a blatant excuse to redo some TNG plots ("oh no, my mummy might be dead!")
rumborak
I have no idea which seasons they're in, but Voyager had that rather interesting story of going to that planet where the liquid or something became clones of the crew and had no idea they were clones. Which was cool. But then they did a follow episode a few years later, where the clones of the whole ship (including the ship) are in space and think they're voyager until things start to go wrong (to avoid spoilers) but I thought that follow up episode was amazing, one of voyagers best.
-
On season 5 of Voyager now, episodes are definitely getting more interesting now. Not too excited about the addition of the kid though, which seemed a blatant excuse to redo some TNG plots ("oh no, my mummy might be dead!")
rumborak
I fault Voyager for not having more kids. They're supposed to be on a 70 year survival mission and the whole ship isn't forming families? Human lifespans at that time are a lot longer(around 150, right?) but still, that's half your life. You won't have much chance to have a normal family when you get home. They needed to be far more creatively aggressive with this show.
-
On season 5 of Voyager now, episodes are definitely getting more interesting now. Not too excited about the addition of the kid though, which seemed a blatant excuse to redo some TNG plots ("oh no, my mummy might be dead!")
rumborak
I have no idea which seasons they're in, but Voyager had that rather interesting story of going to that planet where the liquid or something became clones of the crew and had no idea they were clones. Which was cool. But then they did a follow episode a few years later, where the clones of the whole ship (including the ship) are in space and think they're voyager until things start to go wrong (to avoid spoilers) but I thought that follow up episode was amazing, one of voyagers best.
Four and five (Demon and Course:Oblivion). I really liked C:O, and absolutely despised Demon.
-
I assume Demon was the first episode? Yea, it was ok. Not sure why you despised it but I haven't seen it in a while.
But Course Oblivion was just great writing if you ask me. Acting could have been better, but it's not like Voyager had a bunch of good actors anyway.
-
On season 5 of Voyager now, episodes are definitely getting more interesting now. Not too excited about the addition of the kid though, which seemed a blatant excuse to redo some TNG plots ("oh no, my mummy might be dead!")
rumborak
I fault Voyager for not having more kids. They're supposed to be on a 70 year survival mission and the whole ship isn't forming families? Human lifespans at that time are a lot longer(around 150, right?) but still, that's half your life. You won't have much chance to have a normal family when you get home. They needed to be far more creatively aggressive with this show.
Absolutely. Seven years and most of the characters went through very few major changes at all.
-
Yeah, that's a bit weird, I agree. Like, Harry has remained the hapless bachelor for way too long already. I guess maybe they were looking for a Geordi LaForge equivalent in Voyager, but even Geordi was overdone in his "can't hook up with anyone" thing.
rumborak
-
Harry wasn't just the hapless bachelor for seven years; he was still a greenhorned ensign after seven years. I'm sorry, but spending seven years in space, fighting for your life against aliens, in a distant quadrant with literally no other humans, has to change you. Most of the people came out of it exactly the same. The Doctor got a name. Kes is dead by now. Tom and B'elanna got together. That's pretty much it. Seven of Nine got the most character growth, and it was almost accidental because she was obviously brought in for the T&A factor, and someone finally figured out that there were a lot of potential stories in her deassimilation journey, some of which they actually explored.
-
On season 5 of Voyager now, episodes are definitely getting more interesting now. Not too excited about the addition of the kid though, which seemed a blatant excuse to redo some TNG plots ("oh no, my mummy might be dead!")
rumborak
Luckily the kids don't get all too many episodes before they ditch them. Icheb gets an episode with 7 of 9 which is actually fairly good, and the one where they find the parents for the rest of the kids isn't too bad either.
Harry wasn't just the hapless bachelor for seven years; he was still a greenhorned ensign after seven years. I'm sorry, but spending seven years in space, fighting for your life against aliens, in a distant quadrant with literally no other humans, has to change you. Most of the people came out of it exactly the same. The Doctor got a name. Kes is dead by now. Tom and B'elanna got together. That's pretty much it. Seven of Nine got the most character growth, and it was almost accidental because she was obviously brought in for the T&A factor, and someone finally figured out that there were a lot of potential stories in her deassimilation journey, some of which they actually explored.
One problem was that the network didn't want a serialized show ala DS9. In fact, they wanted the opposite. "Year of Hell" was supposed to be an entire season arc, but that got shot down (although the double episode is one of my favourite Trek episodes ever, so I'm ok with that), and despite Garrett Wang continually pushing, his character forever remained the ensign noob, and they almost made a joke of his lack of progress.
There were also a couple of episodes with the Doctor, such as the one where he discovers a repressed/deleted memory and has to deal with it, or when his holomatrix gets reset and he loses a bunch of memories, that really should have carried over into later episodes, but got reset by the next episode.
Aside from 7 of 9, The Doctor, and Janeway, they weren't overly great actors, so the lack of character development didn't really hurt the show any further. As soon as the show hit S4, and they went full CG for the space shots, the show became more action oriented, and that was its strength compared to other Trek series imo. The acting was never as good as TNG or DS9, but there are a lot of great episodes that relied more on the scifi/CG stuff.
-
One problem was that the network didn't want a serialized show ala DS9. In fact, they wanted the opposite. "Year of Hell" was supposed to be an entire season arc, but that got shot down (although the double episode is one of my favourite Trek episodes ever, so I'm ok with that),
Far out. I didn't know that. I think it probably was the highlight of their series, so I'm not sure it would have been the right move, but from the network brass point of view I think they bungled it. For one thing, like we've seen with DS9 and Enterprise, being in the middle of a serialized story arc doesn't stop you from doing standalone episodes. Probably ten of them would have been love stories, holodeck adventures, and senseless filler. Add to that, it would present a good opportunity to do some non-cannon stuff. With Annorax blowing shit up left and right you could have a different timeline every week if you wanted. Endless potential there.
-
Blob, where did you read that? All I found on a quick search was people saying they read Year of Hell was supposed to be a full season, but Memory Alpha has no mention of it. The background section actually indicates that it was always intended as a two-parter in the producers minds...
Episode co-writer Brannon Braga explained, "Although I don't like to do episodes that rely on other episodes for exposition, I loved the phrase 'Year of Hell' that Ken Biller came up with for that episode. I loved the look of the show. I loved the look of a destroyed Voyager. I wanted to do a whole two-parter like that."
...and with comments like this I just don't buy that the producers weren't completely on board with the network wanting a non-serial series.
-
I'll have to get back to you on that, yorost. I could have sworn in was on memory alpha I read it, but I can't see it on there either. I know I read it somewhere though. You'd really expect memory alpha would have it if anywhere. It is possible that I'm mistaken, but I swear I recall reading it.
-
I don't doubt you read it, I see other people mentioning it. I'm wondering if the full season idea was just a rumour that got spread around. Memory Alpha missing something that big would be surprising.
-
It's entirely possible that I read other people discussing it as a mere idea, and over time my memory got fuzzy and thought it was actually something being considered. I'd trust memory alpha a lot more than I'd trust my own memory. :lol
So let's just assume I'm mistaken on that one.
-
I totally forgot about the "Year of Hell". That was actually pretty good stuff right there. Brad Dourif as Ensign Suder was awesome.
-
I rewatched Year of Hell only a week or so ago. Been one of my favourite Trek episodes since I first saw it. The kamikaze run of Voyager is one of the all time great Trek moments, and it's so refreshing to see a Star Trek ship, especially Voyager, damaged to the point of disrepair, and cop such an ass kicking. Part 2 had a great darker vibe to it too.
-
I rewatched Year of Hell only a week or so ago. Been one of my favourite Trek episodes since I first saw it. The kamikaze run of Voyager is one of the all time great Trek moments, and it's so refreshing to see a Star Trek ship, especially Voyager, damaged to the point of disrepair, and cop such an ass kicking. Part 2 had a great darker vibe to it too.
That episode always felt like such a missed opportunity to me.
There was heavy foreshadowing about the 'Year of Hell' in that one Kes-centric episode, so I was really looking forward to Voyager hopefully going for something that would really threaten to shake up the status quo and then we get a two-part episode with a time travel-esque reset button at the end? C'mon. I think that was the point where I just stopped giving a shit about Voyager anymore.
I guess maybe it's a bit unfair to judge that episode so harshly, but it's hard to decouple your hype engine (and plasma conduits too, apparently). Maybe the episode was really good and I just need to rewatch it. It has been a long time since I've seen it.
-
What the hell?! Jason Alexander in Star Trek?!
rumborak
-
I actually kinda liked his character, too. Sure, he turned out to be another one of those "powerful and/or amazing but horribly misguided by our standards" kinda guys, but that applies to like half of Star Trek's guest stars anyway.
Hey, they cured the Phage. Yeah, they did it for money, but they did it.
-
Man, Star Trek missed a golden chance for some tongue-in-cheek humor. Wouldn't it have been awesome if Janeway had made some comment at the end of the episode a la "Sometimes I wonder how the Universal Translator comes up with its voices. I mean, it gave this guy a thick 20th century New York accent!"
rumborak
-
Man, Star Trek missed a golden chance for some tongue-in-cheek humor. Wouldn't it have been awesome if Janeway had made some comment at the end of the episode a la "Sometimes I wonder how the Universal Translator comes up with its voices. I mean, it gave this guy a thick 20th century New York accent!"
rumborak
:lol Although he was putting on a much softer, neutral accent, as many guests in scifi do. Plus I don't think Star Trek want to call out that level of self awareness on the issue. :lol Maybe at the end of the episode he could have screamed "KURROS IS GETTING VERY ANGRY!".
He actually did a pretty good job too, and it was a good episode. But it's on my top 10 list of Trek vagina-heads-
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080501001515/memoryalpha/en/images/1/16/Kurros.jpg)
-
I think the only Sci-fi show I've seen that calls itself out on its own crap (and other sci-fi shows) was Stargate Sg-1. They pointed out the nonsense of all aliens speaking english, why earth things appear on other planets etc.
-
SG-1 had a lot of genre awareness in that regard, because it was based in present day with regular people. Then they had a few self deprecating episodes where they poked fun at themselves, such as Wormhole Xtreme, 200, Citizen Joe.
I loved that bit of humour and acknowledging the contrivances necessary for that kind of scifi, although Citizen Joe can die in a fire.
-
SG-1 had a lot of genre awareness in that regard, because it was based in present day with regular people. Then they had a few self deprecating episodes where they poked fun at themselves, such as Wormhole Xtreme, 200, Citizen Joe.
I loved that bit of humour and acknowledging the contrivances necessary for that kind of scifi, although Citizen Joe can die in a fire.
200 had some brilliant in-jokes. The Farscape parody was brilliant. But the best part was when the marionets went through the gate and then died on the other side because their strings broke. Just amazing.
-
I'm going to try and watch TNG again, but it's already a challenge. Farpoint is easily the worst of the series premiers, and just an all around terrible episode. It occurs to me that it's a perfect microcosm of everything I liked and loathed about the series. As annoying as Troi was throughout the show's run, she was actually much worse early on. Yar was terrible. Worf actually drew a phaser to shoot an image of Q on the viewscreen!. The flip-side is that Piccard and Data were both perfectly likeable, even in the first, crappy episode.
There was no way I could stomach the horrors of alcohol episode, so I skipped to The Last Outpost. How did the Ferengi evolve from those crazy little hunchback fuckers to Quark? The Ferengi in latter episodes were interesting characters. In this one they were so incredibly stupid and pointless that they just made no sense whatsoever. The writers should have retconned them with some story like "the ship they intercepted was the Ferengi short bus, taking some of the more special ones off to a school where they could get better attention to their needs."
What really amazes me is that the show actually survived. I've made no secret that I'm not a fan, but I recognize that plenty of people liked it and it wasn't an altogether bad show. The first season was just terrible, though. For the sake of the franchise I'm glad it caught on, but I'm more than a little surprised they got a second season to turn it around.
-
The first season was terrible, although it was the first season of any Star Trek I ever watched, and I despised Star Trek before that and yet somehow stuck with it. I couldn't tell you why, but there must have been something. And it sure wasn't that clunky as hell pilot.
The show really does get much better as it gets in though, and has many of the all time great Trek episodes.
-
I certainly recognize that it takes time to develop characters. Your initial concept is generally not what the character will actually be. They toned down Troi a very small amount. They killed Yar's annoying ass. They made Worf a pussy rather than somebody who's only contribution was "lets kill it!" I'm just surprised that they got that opportunity given how terrible it really was, early on. Try and imagine what the meetings must have been like at UPN after the first few weeks.
-
TNG wasn't on UPN. Only Voyager and Enterprise (UPN wasn't even around until Voyager started). TNG started in syndication, which probably has something to do with it.
-
That actually does help explain how it survived. I suppose I also overlooked the existing fan base that would have stuck with it regardless of crappiness. Everybody watched the premier episode when it aired, which would also give it a boost in the ratings.
In an example of "barter syndication", Paramount offered the show to local stations for free. The stations sold five minutes of commercial time to local advertisers and Paramount sold the remaining seven minutes to national advertisers. However, stations had to also commit to purchasing reruns in the future.[13] As additional incentive, only stations that aired the new show could purchase the popular reruns of the original series
-
You seem to be focusing a lot on the negative and wondering how it could have survived. The answer: There was a lot of positive as well. The show, in a sense, was not made for general consumption, but for Star Trek fans. At the very least, they were counting on the loyalty of Star Trek fans to help the ratings. The Enterprise was bigger, sexier, had holodecks, and could separate. The captain wasn't a cowboy, but a veteran who relied on brains and experience more than blowing things up first and asking questions later, maybe. No Vulcans, but who needs them when you have Data? The main crew was expanded.
Yeah, there were still things that needed to be worked out, but it was no worse than original Trek, which is all there was to compare it to, and in some ways it was better. So it lived. It wasn't the steaming pile you make it out to be.
-
I couldn't stand Troi in the begining. Her character was unbearable. They did a better job with her character later in the series. but like in any series it take a while for the characters to be molded.
-
You seem to be focusing a lot on the negative and wondering how it could have survived. The answer: There was a lot of positive as well. The show, in a sense, was not made for general consumption, but for Star Trek fans. At the very least, they were counting on the loyalty of Star Trek fans to help the ratings. The Enterprise was bigger, sexier, had holodecks, and could separate. The captain wasn't a cowboy, but a veteran who relied on brains and experience more than blowing things up first and asking questions later, maybe. No Vulcans, but who needs them when you have Data? The main crew was expanded.
Yeah, there were still things that needed to be worked out, but it was no worse than original Trek, which is all there was to compare it to, and in some ways it was better. So it lived. It wasn't the steaming pile you make it out to be.
Taken as a whole, you're correct. However, I was referring to the first season which really had no redeeming qualities. Looking at the episode list, they didn't produce episodes that were very good until the final two (and plenty of people hate Conspiracy with a passion). Overall, you've got 5 or so that are passable, but far from great, two that are great, and a whole bunch of crap.
Regardless, the syndication strategy and the existing fanbase pretty much answered my question. Had that been on an actual network I doubt it would have made it, though. Honestly, if Fartpoint was the pilot, I doubt it would have been picked up at all.
And I don't get any comparison of quality with TOS, at all. Pretty much everybody agrees that the first season of TOS was their best, and there was very little that changed throughout their run.
-
I LOVE TNG, but I agree the first season was terrible. I almost stopped following it, but would check in periodically and must have came across a decent episode :lol. Anyway, I think Stewart and Spiner were the best actors of the entire franchise, and Frakes was very solid. That said, of course nothing will ever beat the Kirk-Spock-McCoy dynamic.
-
Brent was amazing as Data. It must be so hard to portray what is essentially a machine without going " ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE" type acting.
-
Taken as a whole, you're correct. However, I was referring to the first season which really had no redeeming qualities. Looking at the episode list, they didn't produce episodes that were very good until the final two (and plenty of people hate Conspiracy with a passion). Overall, you've got 5 or so that are passable, but far from great, two that are great, and a whole bunch of crap.
Conspiracy was great if only for Riker and Picard blowing up/melting that one dude's face and body with phaser fire. :lol
What a bugfuck of an episode (literally...). I'm not sure what they were going for, but the gore in that was pretty damn extreme for a late 80's, syndicated sci-fi show.
-
It was! I loved that scene, too, and remember thinking the same thing. This is TV? This is Star Trek special effects?
-
It was also an episode that was dark and represented an existential threat to the Federation. Everything before that had portrayed everything as just pretty damned super, even when somebody was going to be killed. Not that any of us give a damn if they'd killed Wesley for trodding on the flowers (we all would have preferred it, I'm sure), but even when the episode revolves around the potential death of a crew member, it's still not intense or dramatic. Conspiracy and The Neutral Zone finally added an element of seriousness that the series desperately needed.
-
Looks like I'll backtrack a bit on my criticism. I still think TNG is pretty week, but it seems that it only took about 6 weeks to get their act together. As bad as the first few episodes were, most of the subsequent ones from the first season were perfectly tolerable, and in a couple of cases pretty good. Wesley and Troi continue to be despicable, but the rest of them are reasonable enough, though quite banal.
The biggest downside is that they continue to be too preachy. The original series would throw out morality plays from time to time, and they usually sucked, but they didn't generally stoop to the level of After School Specials. Some of these have just been painful to watch. Symbiosis actually had a pretty good prime directive quandary, which is where ST was always at it's best, and a nifty premise, and then you get Tasha Yar and Wesley delivering the standard DARE lecture about drug use. That's the kind of shit that makes me despise television.
Aside from the total lack of interpersonal conflict among the characters, which tends to make them quite boring, we also have to be subjected to their smug, condescending lectures about how all of us suck. Not cool.
-
I agree. Gene Roddenberry envisioned a near-Utopian future where nobody has any problems, everybody respects everyone else, and everything is lovey-dovey. I'm sure the other powers-that-be tried to explain to him that that makes for some really boring television, but it was his baby.
And even that would probably have been okay if it weren't for the preaching. I have to admit, I spent most of the 80's and 90's pretty baked, so when TNG was in its original run, we just laughed at it when they started preaching. In fact, the show itself was more tolerable that way overall.
-
Tasha Yar really had it the worst in terms of scripting, she never got past her lecturing before she died.
rumborak
-
I really tried to warm up to her. She was actually one of the few characters on the show that was troubled. Everybody else is just annoyingly smug in their superiority. Unfortunately, she always seemed to use her background as an excuse to lecture people. But aside from crying when she was in the penalty box, I liked her as security chief. And given my choice, I'd have much rather seen Troi get killed by the tar-baby than her.
-
TNG could definitely be a little stuffy and over the top sometimes with the Prime Directive, but personally I'll take that over Kirk's shitting all over the Prime Directive in every episode to uphold his narrow minded 1960s Americana. :lol
Speaking of which, I watched The Omega Glory yesterday, and it was a really great episode up until they brought in the American flag, and Kirk suddenly flipped sides, and gave the most super cringeworthy hammy speech about the constitution as if it was the universal Federation rulebook, even though the future is supposed to be united and not about individual countries. None of it made any sense at all, and there was no explanation for why or how this planet was somehow based on anything from Earth, or why Kirk was reacting so strongly to it.
While I love TOS, this is why I basically ignore it as canon, because it's completely out of line with the rest of the series. Otherwise, it was a great episode though.
-
So, yet another episode where the holodeck breaks ("Spirit Folk"). It would be interesting to see the percentage of episodes where it actually worked.
rumborak
-
There do seem to be a lot of episodes where a holodeck malfunction or simple abuse causes problems. I figure that if everything always worked fine, it would be similar to if there were no conflicts or problems and everything was hunky dory. You wouldn't have any stories. Therefore, we don't see it, but we have to assume that the holodeck is used all the time by crew members and their families, and 99% of the time (or more) it works fine. But when it screws up, you hear about it.
-
They've also been in space for years and years with no starbases at which to get repairs. Things are going to break. In fact I'm surprised nothing else really broke.
-
Ah, that reminds me...
I think I've posted this link in this thread before, but it's just too damned awesome and needs to be repeated. How many Star Trek crew members does it take to change a light bulb?
Peter Anspach's Star Trek Parodies (https://www.eviloverlord.com/parodies/)
-
So, yet another episode where the holodeck breaks ("Spirit Folk"). It would be interesting to see the percentage of episodes where it actually worked.
rumborak
I'm not going to lie, I couldn't make it through that whole episode. Not because it was the millionth holodeck malfunction, as I actually still get a kick out of those when done right (see "Our Man Bashir" for a fun combination of transporter malfunction and holodeck malfunction wrapped into one!), but just because sometimes I find it really painful to see a bunch of the future's apparently brightest people with such amazing technology get overcome by a bunch of hicks with pitchforks time and again. :lol
-
So, yet another episode where the holodeck breaks ("Spirit Folk"). It would be interesting to see the percentage of episodes where it actually worked.
rumborak
I'm not going to lie, I couldn't make it through that whole episode. Not because it was the millionth holodeck malfunction, as I actually still get a kick out of those when done right (see "Our Man Bashir" for a fun combination of transporter malfunction and holodeck malfunction wrapped into one!), but just because sometimes I find it really painful to see a bunch of the future's apparently brightest people with such amazing technology get overcome by a bunch of hicks with pitchforks time and again. :lol
I thought the same thing. But then the Voyager crew got it's ass kicked constantly. They were made to look foolish by most of the Delta quadrant.
-
Man, Voyager's episodes are really a mixed bag. Watched a great one (where the ship exists in different time zones and Chakotay fixes it), and now I'm watching a stinker about an angsty Belana trying to genetically alter her unborn baby. Wtf.
rumborak
-
Both final season episodes, "Shattered" and "Lineage".
S7 seemed to have a lot more episodes for individual characters, which I liked. Shattered is a great episode. I love the really scifi stuff, especially when time travel is involved.
I appreciate what they were trying to do with Lineage, and it was a nice idea given Be'lanna's history, but the end result was just a batshit crazy Klingon chick going nuts, that only begged the question "are Klingon women on permanent PMS?"
-
I'm thinking that once I wrap up TNG I'll revisit Voyager.
Thus far, I've decided that the average TNG episodes aren't as bad as I remember them. That elevates the show significantly. The bad episodes are still every bit as nauseating as I thought. I've also found a couple of episodes that were pretty good, which I hadn't noticed before. All in all, the overall show has moved up in my book (although it's probably still the worst of the franchise, at least until I get to Voyager).
-
Don't forget Enterprise. While I enjoyed it, it's unquestionably the worst Trek series. Hopefully by the end of rewatching TNG you'll realize how damn good it was. ;) :biggrin:
-
Don't forget Enterprise. While I enjoyed it, it's unquestionably the worst Trek series. Hopefully by the end of rewatching TNG you'll realize how damn good it was. ;) :biggrin:
Not gonna happen. I'm giving it props for being better than I recall, but it still lacks good characters, good interaction between them, and when it's rotten, it's painfully so and hard to watch.
It doesn't help that I'm also rewatching TOS. Given just how good that show was, it really makes me thing lesser of TNG.
-
I agree about TNG. With DS9 I feel I would need a paring knife to clean it up, but for TNG.an ax.
-
Don't forget Enterprise. While I enjoyed it, it's unquestionably the worst Trek series. Hopefully by the end of rewatching TNG you'll realize how damn good it was. ;) :biggrin:
Not gonna happen. I'm giving it props for being better than I recall, but it still lacks good characters, good interaction between them, and when it's rotten, it's painfully so and hard to watch.
It doesn't help that I'm also rewatching TOS. Given just how good that show was, it really makes me thing lesser of TNG.
While I love TOS, I really can't take it at all seriously compared to later Trek, given the tacky sets, and general 60s scifi campiness. And they screwed over later Trek in so many ways. I mostly appreciate it for the camp 60s fun factor, and of course the characters, but it's not something I can take all that seriously compared to TNG/DS9 aside from the fact it established the franchise.
Granted, TNG had its share of painfully dull moments, but it had a strong cast, and had many of the all time great episodes, just as much as TOS, if not more given the past it lasted twice as long. I really need to rewatch TNG myself. Given how little Trek I knew before watching it, I'll appreciate it so much more now.
-
I finished season 7 of Voyager, and then realized that I had skipped the first two. So, I'm watching season 1 right now and man, there's some stinkers. Just watched the one with the culture that had some transport technology that could have transported them halfway back.
Man, Janeway's high-horse monologue at the end was painful to listen to. I'm sorry, but Starfleet or not, it's not up to her to waste 30 years of her crew over some questionably applicable prime directive.
-
I've been rewatching quite a few Voyager episodes lately. I watched Before and After and Counterpoint yesterday.
Season 1 and 2 were easily the worst. I still enjoyed season 1 for the formulaic scifi nature of it (I never get sick of spacial-anomaly-of-the-week), but at this point they really should have been focusing on the premise they set up with the Maquis, not to mention having the most laughable of all Trek villians, the barnacle heads.......... I mean the Kazon......
Season 2 was my least favourite. They definitely changed their style a bit, and tried to diversify their storylines, but at this point I think they largely failed and had trouble finding their own way.
The second they ditched the Kazon going into season 3, the show picked up dramatically, and season 4 is when it started to really hit its stride.
-
Don't forget Enterprise. While I enjoyed it, it's unquestionably the worst Trek series. Hopefully by the end of rewatching TNG you'll realize how damn good it was. ;) :biggrin:
Not gonna happen. I'm giving it props for being better than I recall, but it still lacks good characters, good interaction between them, and when it's rotten, it's painfully so and hard to watch.
It doesn't help that I'm also rewatching TOS. Given just how good that show was, it really makes me thing lesser of TNG.
Yes, but Enterprise.
-
I just watched Wolf in the Fold for the first time, and that was a kicker of an episode.
Just when you think Scotty's alcoholism couldn't get any more troublesome, suddenly he's blacking out and allegedly stabbing exotic dancers. Next thing you know, Jack the Ripper's evil ghost has control of the Enterprise computer, and the crew is getting high on tranquilizers by the captain's order. But nothing that beaming someone out into space can't fix! Classic.
And I also watched Patterns of Force the other day. Man, the chick in that was a hottie. I love that they didn't even bother to give her clothing that was consistent with the culture, and just gave her leather flares and some neon orange fluffy thing that showed off her midriff instead. And what was with that scene where she was performing that orgasm ritual all over Kirk's body? Don't care, I totally enjoyed it. :hat
-
Patterns of Force was the episode with Nazis. I think you're referring to A Private Little War, which is actually a pretty good episode.
I watched Wink of an Eye out in the shop yesterday, and noticed something I hadn't picked up on before. They developed a cure for the Scalosian water problem, and intentionally withheld it from them, presumably out of spite. Not only did they never discuss it in front of them, they went out of their way to avoid the subject until after they'd left. Fairly vindictive on Kirk's part, frankly.
-
Patterns of Force was the episode with Nazis. I think you're referring to A Private Little War, which is actually a pretty good episode.
Yep, you're right. I keep getting those names confused. I quite liked the episode, and it was refreshingly nice to not have a neat clean cut ending for a change.
-
Yeah, I know they catch some flack here, but I like TOS's prime directive episodes. Continuing it's annoying theme of avoiding conflict at all costs, TNG tended to draw bright lines and stick to them. "We can and will do this, we won't do that. Problem solved." TOS actually dealt with the shades of grey inherent in any strict set of rules. That always made for great discussion with K/S/M arguing about what was appropriate.
-
I actually prefer the episodes where Kirk acknowledges that there's a prime directive, instead of just deciding a culture doesn't fit with his idea of what they "should" be, and completely destroys it. Happens in too many episodes, like The Apple. Kirk annoys me with his narrow minded '60s American mentality sometimes, and it's episodes like that which made me initially hate McCoy, because he was always the voice in Kirk's ear for that, while Spock actually tried to do the right thing.
TNG sometimes took the prime directive too far to the point where I felt they were upholding the letter of the prime directive, but not necessarily the intent of it. A captain should have the discretion to disregard it in special cases (although I'll never forgive him for letting Will Wheaton avoid his due punishment for stepping on the damn grass).
I felt DS9 did the best job of weighing the issues of the prime directive and ignoring it when appropriate. Sisko was such a badass. You just can't compete with a bald black guy with a goatee, and a voice that smooth. You just can't.
-
I watched Voyager's "Alliances" yesterday, where they're trying to forge an alliance with the Kazon. The whole episode is about the Prime Directive, and when Janeway finally yields to be more flexible, the whole things falls apart, only to give her a soap box at the end how the Prime Directive is the best thing they have. Ugh.
Luckily the next one (where Paris goes beyond warp 10 and totally disintegrates, and then has kids with Janeway) is really good.
rumborak
-
Luckily the next one (where Paris goes beyond warp 10 and totally disintegrates, and then has kids with Janeway) is really good.
rumborak
:lol I call shenanigans. Threshold is as infamously bad as Spock's Brain. But who am I kidding? I love Trek even when it's bad. Especially when it's bad. :lol
I don't think there's a single Kazon episode I like, except maybe the double episode where they take over the ship (Basics, S2/3 cliffhanger), although the thought of any group that lowly overcoming Voyager still annoys me.
-
The kazon were weak antagonists. Actually a pretty big detriment to the show, IMO.
-
It's amazing how dramatically the show improved the minute they ditched the Kazon. Just dreadful. I thought the Vidiians were much better bad guys, because they weren't inherently bad people, they were just doing bad things from the legitimate motivation of their own survival. It's a shame they only got a few episodes, because they could have explored it further.
-
I actually hated the Videans even more, but I suppose they were a better dramatic foil.
-
Come on. They stole Neelix's lungs and left him for dead in a cave. That's gotta count for some brownie points! :lol
-
Yeah, that was pretty cool.
-
The lack of solid original antagonistic races was one of the major shortcomings of Voyager. The Hirogen were probably the best, but they were just watered down Predators and everyone knew it. The Vaaduar were another one of the better ones. Funny thing is, some of their best ideas for aliens were one shot antagonists; like those dinosaur aliens who were in denial about not being native to the Delta quadrant. Most of the bad guys in Voyager, however, were rather weak; the Kazon, the Vidians, the Malon, just all really bland, faceless and underdeveloped. None of the deep and complex cultural identities of classic species like the Romulans or the Klingons, or even then-more recent antagonists like the Cardassians and the Dominion. Hell, even the comical Ferengi were better villains then most of the Delta quadrant's natives. No wonder the writers milked the Borg for all they were worth in that show.
-
The Memory-Alpha entry on the Kazon is actually pretty damned interesting. It would seem that pretty much everybody hated them. That would include The Borg, who found them unworthy of assimilation. Really, how worthless do you have to be? :lol
The original intent was to have them be the 23rd century equivalent of Crips and Bloods (plus a couple of smaller gangs). They had planned for different gangs, and Voyager would always be in uneasy alliances which would aggravate the other gangs. Not a bad idea, but executed poorly. After the second season, pretty much the entire cast and crew was sick of them and wanted them gone forever.
https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kazon#Background
-
To be fair, though, they were working with different rules as far as bad guys were concerned. The whole premise of the show was that they suddenly found themselves in the Delta quadrant and were heading back to Earth. Presumably they were doing so in as much of a beeline as possible (however that works in 3D), so they weren't going to run into the same bad guys over and over. When the show first came on, The Powers That Be talked about how it would be more like TOS in that they would constantly be encountering new things, new races. I thought that that sounded really cool. But first season, we had the f%@#ing Kazon for months and months. How could they be travelling at maximum warp for months and still be Kazon territory?
The Borg were different. Yeah, they were the established badasses of the galaxy, but as such, it was also established that we had no idea how far their turf went.
But overall, yeah, the aliens-of-the-week did tend to be pretty crappy in general. That amazing premise we started with never really did pan out.
-
Yeah, the Kazon were really half of nothing. I watched the episode yesterday where they tried to give the Kazon some back story by saying they were suppressed by the Traib, but that made even less sense. These obvious morons somehow achieve enormous dominance after being suppressed? Hardly.
It kinda struck me that they were trying to create a Klingon equivalent with the Kazon, only without the endearing qualities of the Klingon.
rumborak
-
To be fair, though, they were working with different rules as far as bad guys were concerned. The whole premise of the show was that they suddenly found themselves in the Delta quadrant and were heading back to Earth. Presumably they were doing so in as much of a beeline as possible (however that works in 3D), so they weren't going to run into the same bad guys over and over. When the show first came on, The Powers That Be talked about how it would be more like TOS in that they would constantly be encountering new things, new races. I thought that that sounded really cool. But first season, we had the f%@#ing Kazon for months and months. How could they be travelling at maximum warp for months and still be Kazon territory?
The Borg were different. Yeah, they were the established badasses of the galaxy, but as such, it was also established that we had no idea how far their turf went.
But overall, yeah, the aliens-of-the-week did tend to be pretty crappy in general. That amazing premise we started with never really did pan out.
Yep, having strong recurring races like the Klingons etc was difficult in Voyager due to the premise, and yet their major attempts at it failed regardless. I bought the Borg as Voyager's main enemy during the later seasons, since they had conquered so many species and had much faster ships.
I think they did best with the spacial anomalies and one off interesting characters, rather than entire races. See Future's End, Year of Hell, Timeless, Blink of an Eye etc. They had a good track record for time travel stories!
-
IIRC, they were actually on the other side of Borg space, so they were just entering the outskirts on the way back. There experiences with the Borg would have continued to increase in frequency.
Yeah, the Kazon were really half of nothing. I watched the episode yesterday where they tried to give the Kazon some back story by saying they were suppressed by the Traib, but that made even less sense. These obvious morons somehow achieve enormous dominance after being suppressed? Hardly.
It kinda struck me that they were trying to create a Klingon equivalent with the Kazon, only without the endearing qualities of the Klingon.
rumborak
Their backstory was explained a bit in the M-A link I posted. I don't know if it was ever developed on the show, but the original premise was that The Trabe had kept all of the sects fighting amongst each other to prevent them from rebelling as a united front. Eventually they did unite, kick the Trabe's ass, and steel all of their technology. Much like the Klingons, they were flying around in ships they didn't really fully understand.
Honestly, I don't remember any of this. Once I finish TNG, I'll probably start that up. Star Trek is actually pretty good TV to watch out working in the shop, and I haven't seen Voyager since it actually aired.
-
What's funny about Star Trek plots is that every time there's more than one person dying, or alternatively a key member, you know it's a time travel episode :lol
rumborak
-
What's funny about Star Trek plots is that every time there's more than one person dying, or alternatively a key member, you know it's a time travel episode :lol
rumborak
Hm? When Tasha, Data (yea, I know it was a movie, but still), Dax and so forth all died, it wasn't time travel. I can't think of many other key members dying off the top of my head. Unless you meant something else, like someone dying but then coming back by the end.
-
What's funny about Star Trek plots is that every time there's more than one person dying, or alternatively a key member, you know it's a time travel episode :lol
rumborak
Hm? When Tasha, Data (yea, I know it was a movie, but still), Dax and so forth all died, it wasn't time travel. I can't think of many other key members dying off the top of my head. Unless you meant something else, like someone dying but then coming back by the end.
Except when Tasha came back in Yesterday's Enterprise and died again... but not actually.
-
What's funny about Star Trek plots is that every time there's more than one person dying, or alternatively a key member, you know it's a time travel episode :lol
rumborak
Hm? When Tasha, Data (yea, I know it was a movie, but still), Dax and so forth all died, it wasn't time travel. I can't think of many other key members dying off the top of my head. Unless you meant something else, like someone dying but then coming back by the end.
Except when Tasha came back in Yesterday's Enterprise and died again... but not actually.
Yes but she didn't die in that case.
-
What's funny about Star Trek plots is that every time there's more than one person dying, or alternatively a key member, you know it's a time travel episode :lol
rumborak
This translates to just about every scifi show. Whenever I see the main cast start dying, I always get excited that it's a time travel episode, or something similarly "sciency". :lol
In fact, just yesterday I was watching the Voyager episode "Deadlock", where a spacial anomaly splits Voyager into two and they have to destroy one to save the other, but you don't find that out until after Harry Kim gets sucked out into space. :metal (Samantha Wildman's baby also dies too)
-
Haha, we were both watching the same episode yesterday!
rumborak
-
That one was actually on TV yesterday. Wasn't going to watch it, since I knew they were still showing season 2, but when I realized which one it was, I had to watch it. I usually watch episodes from S4 onwards, since those are generally much better episodes, and even if they're shit, you've got better eye candy. :lol
I also watched Drone and Endgame yesterday too.
-
Something that always puzzled me about TNG. For all of their smug superiority, why didn't these people ever come up with some rule about waltzing into other people's holodeck program unannounced and uninvited? I guarantee you that the thing wasn't invented for 48 hours before some really uncomfortable situations arose.
I suppose that Roddenberry probably wanted us all to assume that they had evolved past the point of wanting to use the holodeck for sleazy, green Orion chick orgies (ironic given his pervy nature), but clearly that wasn't the case. Uncomfortable intrusions seemed to happen all the time. If nothing else, couldn't these people have come up with a necktie on the doorknob kind of signal?
Didn't Bashir or somebody once make a reference to it being illegal to intrude on somebody in the holodeck?
-
Didn't Bashir or somebody once make a reference to it being illegal to intrude on somebody in the holodeck?
He did, but the DS9 promenade was subject to Bajoran law, not Federation law.
-
Something that always puzzled me about TNG. For all of their smug superiority, why didn't these people ever come up with some rule about waltzing into other people's holodeck program unannounced and uninvited? I guarantee you that the thing wasn't invented for 48 hours before some really uncomfortable situations arose.
Eh, that was always bogus. Really, the worst thing imaginable is Barkley recreating bridge officers on the Holodeck?
In real life they would constantly beam all the smile into outer space that accumulated on the Holodeck.
rumborak
-
When people wanted their privacy they locked the holodeck doors. I think they were past the point of seeing privacy as this ultimate amazing right that everyone needs at all times.
-
When people wanted their privacy they locked the holodeck doors. I think they were past the point of seeing privacy as this ultimate amazing right that everyone needs at all times.
That never happened. In fact, I suspect that locking doors would have been something they actually had evolved beyond. I can hear Piccard smugly pronouncing that mutual respect for one's shipmates circumvents the needs for such safeguards in the twenty-third century; condescending prick. And in the case of the holodeck, all that's needed is a doorbell or something. They'd just stroll right on in. They never walked into people's quarters.
Moreover, I think privacy is only one of the concerns. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd really prefer not to know what others do in their holodeck time. You tell me what's more awkward, getting caught nailing the holographic Crusher, or walking in on same? Christ, what if you walk in on somebody having gay-sex with a hologram of you? What kind of effect is that going to have on ship morale?
-
I don't have the intense hatred for most things that you do, nor do I remember every episode of TNG. But I recall a few times when the holodeck door was locked. Maybe voyager, I dunno.
-
Not sure what intense hatred of mine you're referring to, or how it fits in here. I just don't get the utter lack of privacy and/or discression from these people.
Thankfully, I'm not the only one. Found this rather amusing blog post on the matter.:
I guess what Star Trek is trying to tell me is that they don’t need locking doors on the holodeck because people of the 24th century aren’t going to be doing anything they wouldn’t be comfortable with anyone walking in & seeing. Not that everyone in the 24th century is a kinky exhibitionist, but that they don’t use the holodeck to do really freaky shit, because they are all cultured and evolved and work to better themselves and all of humanity and somehow making a holographic copy of their crewmates to rape in a holodungeon just doesn’t even occur to them. If this is true then by the time humanity gains holodeck technology the entire point of it will have already been wasted on them.
Continued. . . (https://carsthatgoboom.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/a-holodeck-without-a-locking-door-is-basically-useless/)
Be sure and watch Barclay's Hobby at the end.
And by the way, I've lightened up on TNG quite a bit. The bad episodes (and there are plenty) are still the worst thing they've done, but most of the episodes are perfectly passable and occasionally quite good.
-
In another instance of "why didn't he....?", I'm watching Basics Pt II, where the doctor and Suder try to retake the Voyager. Where all it would have taken is to flood the ship with an anesthetic. Actually, just about any boarding of any Federation vessel could have been averted with that simple move.
rumborak
-
I finally figured why people liked T'Pol. They're really using any excuse to show off her exquisite body :lol
rumborak
-
I finally figured why people liked T'Pol. They're really using any excuse to show off her exquisite body :lol
rumborak
Oh come on, they didn't care about showing off her body! That whole, get naked and rub each other down in oil room that they go into after every mission serves a very....um.....specific purpose?
-
Yeah, they definitely worked that angle as much as possible. Personally, I never found her very attractive. She's certainly well built, though. Still, I always preferred Hoshi by a fairly wide margin.
Wrapping up season 4 of TNG, and along with season 3 it's been pretty respectable. This seems to be where their best work was. The latter seasons, as I recall, seemed to be more character driven, and since I don't like many of the characters, and they're not allowed to have any real conflicts, those pretty much sucked. I'm trying pretty hard to watch all of them, but there are a couple each season that I just can't make myself sit through. Generally they tend to be episodes involving Troi's mother or obnoxious kids. Episodes focusing on Geordi's inability to get laid don't sit too well with me, either. I'm up to the episode with that awful woman he had the holo-crush on, and I'm not sure if I want to suffer through it or not.
Now that I think about it, along with locking the freaking door to the damn holodeck, hiding or deleting programs that might embarrass the hell out of you should probably also be SOP for anybody with half a brain on that ship, as well. Maybe it's just me, but if I know I'm having a house guest over, I'll probably make sure sensitive folders on my hard drive are tucked away somewhere, and I'll absolutely make sure there aren't shortcuts to "house_guest_naked.jpg" on my desktop in plain view.
-
Yeah, they definitely worked that angle as much as possible. Personally, I never found her very attractive. She's certainly well built, though. Still, I always preferred Hoshi by a fairly wide margin.
You and me both. T'Pol's outfit wasn't even that flattering until the difference outfit in season 3 and 4, and even then she wasn't that great. Hoshi all the way. :tup
-
T Pol > 7of9
-
No way! T'Pol is bottom of the barrel for Trek women for me. The short haired bowl cut, the fake lips, the malnourished look, it just did nothing for me.
I'll take 7's corset cat suit with high heels any day. Meow! And THOSE EYES.
I tell you what though, we'll just let them decide with a catfight. Vulcan strength vs Borg enhancements. Should make for an interesting fight. 1900 hours, holodeck, Orion mud wrestling program.
-
Honestly, 7/9 didn't really do much for me either. When she let her hair down, a la Annika Hansen, she was gorgeous, but most of the time I found her fairly unattractive.
That seems to be a sci-fi staple. Take an attractive woman with very strong features, then make her vaguely unattractive as an alien. She'll project an underlying beauty, but still be a weird chick with a bizarre look most of the time. T'Pol and 7 of 9 are fine examples of that.
-
7 of 9 looked way hotter with her hair down (what chick doesn't?), but she was still hot with it up. She still had a gorgeous face, and a killer body, and none of the Borg additions really hid that.
Afraid I can't say the same for T'Pol though, so I agree with you there. The standard Vulcan look does not lend itself to attractiveness at all. And that early uniform was not flattering at all.
-
I have to agree that the "main chicks" were all too supermodel-y for me. I find that Star Trek has brought way more attractive side actresses into random episodes.
That said, Kess was pretty attractive.
rumborak
-
I liked Kes best of all. She was a cutie.
-
Good thing they also at some point found out what to do with her hair. The early-season hairdos she had were really bad.
rumborak
-
Good thing they also at some point found out what to do with her hair. The early-season hairdos she had were really bad.
rumborak
That confused me so much, because they chose the worst episode to make the switch.
She had the awful pixie mop for 3 seasons, then for about the last 6 episodes she was ever in, they suddenly switched, and they did so in the episode "Before and After" where she's ageing backwards through time slowly regaining her memories and trying to stop it happening. Then at the end of the episode she magically has long hair, and I still think everything must be screwed up, because clearly this can't be the same timeline! HER HAIR IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
But no, they just chose the worst possible time to change her hairstyle without any logical sense or explanation.
-
I actually wasn't talking about her switch to long hair, but rather already beforehand where they were adjusting her pixie mop. She started out with this indescribable thing on her head, and later it looked more like actual hair.
rumborak
-
Ah ok. I've only been watching them randomly lately, and I don't watch a lot of the pre-7 of 9 episodes, so I'd forgotten about that!
T'Pol's mop went through a similar progression too. In the first episode it looked liked a Beatles wig from a costume shop. It took them a while before it looked like it was real hair, and not just a rag over her real hair.
-
She was hottest in SLC Punk, though it's hard to find a decent pic of her from that movie.
(https://pics.livejournal.com/xtomxfallsx/pic/000geyw0)
Also, agree on Hoshi....god damn.
-
Since we are on the subject of the girls of Trek, I was watching TOS a while back, which I had not seen any episodes of in quite a few years, and I was taken aback a bit by how damn striking Nichelle Nichols was back in the day. She had aged pretty well over the course of the movies, but back in the late 60's, she was rather attractive and cute at the same time.
I gotta say, though, her successor in the '09 film made me salivate a little. I normally like my women with more meat on them, so I'm typically not into the model-thin types, but Zoe Saldana has a pretty damn hot body for such a slender girl, and she just so goddamn beautiful, too. Mmmmmm.......
-
My oldest daughter had a couple of friends over Monday night, who happened to be Trekkies. Turns out they had never seen the TOS episode "Spock's Brain", which I showed them for the lulz. Possibly Coon wrote it as a joke but Freiberger filmed it anyway. Beautiful write-up of it at The Agony Booth:
https://www.agonybooth.com/recaps/Star_Trek/the_original_series/Spock_s_Brain.aspx
My favorite part is Kirk (who had not been shown how to use the remote control) pushing the "extend index finger slightly to the left and press down" button. :lol
-
Man, some plot developments are so shite. Watching "The Communicator" right now, where this simplistic but warring nation gets hold of Archer and Reed and their equipment. The solution? Hang Archer and Reed. Makes zero sense.
rumborak
-
Since we are on the subject of the girls of Trek, I was watching TOS a while back, which I had not seen any episodes of in quite a few years, and I was taken aback a bit by how damn striking Nichelle Nichols was back in the day. She had aged pretty well over the course of the movies, but back in the late 60's, she was rather attractive and cute at the same time.
I gotta say, though, her successor in the '09 film made me salivate a little. I normally like my women with more meat on them, so I'm typically not into the model-thin types, but Zoe Saldana has a pretty damn hot body for such a slender girl, and she just so goddamn beautiful, too. Mmmmmm.......
The green chick was *FAR* hotter...
-
No way dude. Uhura was hotter.
rumborak
-
No way dude. Uhura was hotter.
rumborak
Whale vagina!
-
Why the hell are you two arguing? The obvious answer is a three way.
-
No way dude. Uhura was hotter.
rumborak
Whale vagina!
What does San Diego have to do with this?
rumborak
-
No way dude. Uhura was hotter.
rumborak
Whale vagina!
What does San Diego have to do with this?
rumborak
It was a mistranslation on his part. He didn't mean to write San Diego in German, he meant to write San Francisco because that's where Star Fleet is.
He should have said Whale Anus.
-
So the whales were moaning, not communicating. Well they were talking another language then......
-
No way dude. Uhura was hotter.
rumborak
Whale vagina!
What does San Diego have to do with this?
rumborak
I was saying...."Agree to disagree."
:P
-
Man, some plot developments are so shite. Watching "The Communicator" right now, where this simplistic but warring nation gets hold of Archer and Reed and their equipment. The solution? Hang Archer and Reed. Makes zero sense.
rumborak
I find it's best not to try and make sense of anything Enterprise did. :lol
Especially season 4's philosophy of forcing the round peg into the square hole at any cost. A 3 part episode dedicated to trying to explain why the Klingons of TOS looked different...... I was perfectly content with "the makeup was shit. Deal with it."
-
A 3 part episode dedicated to trying to explain why the Klingons of TOS looked different...... I was perfectly content with "the makeup was shit. Deal with it."
Man, sometimes I'm glad I never got into Enterprise. That sounds horrible. I was fine with the makeup issue as well, or even Worf's remark on the DS9 tribbles episode. "It is not something we discuss." There, it's been acknowledged. No explanation is forthcoming.
-
I still say season 3 of Enterprise is some of the best Trek ever.
And the whole Xenophobia storyline in season 4 is amazing as well. The rest....well, it's either okay or bad.
-
A 3 part episode dedicated to trying to explain why the Klingons of TOS looked different...... I was perfectly content with "the makeup was shit. Deal with it."
Man, sometimes I'm glad I never got into Enterprise. That sounds horrible. I was fine with the makeup issue as well, or even Worf's remark on the DS9 tribbles episode. "It is not something we discuss." There, it's been acknowledged. No explanation is forthcoming.
I was even bothered by that much. While I guess they had to address it, since they were unavoidably side by side, I wish they were just able to ignore it. Because if you acknowledge it, then it's now canon that there must be some in-universe reason for it. For the most part TOS should just have been ignored when it comes to canon, because it said a lot of throwaway lines that just painted them into a corner later when they actually tried to have more sense of continuity.
Enterprise did have a few worthwhile episodes though. The season 3 arc was quite enjoyable, and In a Mirror Darkly is a fun two parter, even though it's just as fan wanky as the rest of season 4. It's kinda cheesy, but I guess that's what made it a fun throwback to TOS. You're not really missing out by avoiding it though. It was very derivate of other Trek series, and fairly uninspired.
I still say season 3 of Enterprise is some of the best Trek ever.
And the whole Xenophobia storyline in season 4 is amazing as well. The rest....well, it's either okay or bad.
:tup
-
It's a real shame that Michelle Forbes turned down DS9. The Ro Laren character was wasted on TNG, and I really hated Kyra Nerys. I would have much rather seen her on DS9.
-
It's a real shame that Michelle Forbes turned down DS9. The Ro Laren character was wasted on TNG, and I really hated Kyra Nerys. I would have much rather seen her on DS9.
Ro was very 1 dimensional. Yes, that is mostly due to her limited screen time, but it's also not a reason to want her over Kira.
Kira was pretty awful for the first few seasons, though she did have great moments like in Duality. But her character was given amazing development over the course of the show, some really deep stuff and Nana eventually grew into the character and did a good job.
-
It's a real shame that Michelle Forbes turned down DS9. The Ro Laren character was wasted on TNG, and I really hated Kyra Nerys. I would have much rather seen her on DS9.
That was your biology kicking in. We all tend to hate C-Notes and she played one. The softened her a bit in later seasons.
-
Out of sheer curiosity Senior Simpson, which characters outside of TOS do you really like? Not plots, or stories or shows, but characters and specifically main chast characters. Thanks.
-
It's a real shame that Michelle Forbes turned down DS9. The Ro Laren character was wasted on TNG, and I really hated Kyra Nerys. I would have much rather seen her on DS9.
That was your biology kicking in. We all tend to hate C-Notes and she played one. The softened her a bit in later seasons.
I don't think so. For one thing, Michelle Forbes was a pretty girl, and I never thought that about Nana Visitor. For another, Ro Larin had an interesting backstory. How often does somebody in the federation get court-martialed? Lastly, she was just engaging. I found her to be interesting, and I never actually cared about Kira or her history. I suppose Kira might have had an interesting back story, but she never made me care enough to want to hear it.
The fact that Kira was a bitch was actually her most endearing quality. That's the whole reason they wrote the character into the show, and is actually the reason they created Ro Larin. She was the interpersonal conflict that TNG lacked, and that they wanted to add to DS9.
Out of sheer curiosity Senior Simpson, which characters outside of TOS do you really like? Not plots, or stories or shows, but characters and specifically main chast characters. Thanks.
I don't like any chast characters. It goes against my nature.
In TNG I like Piccard and Data a great deal. They're both interesting and actually have some chemistry with each other, unlike all the rest of them. I was alright with Worf, but honestly he was something of a pussy as far as Klingons go.
In DS9 I like Bashir and O'Brien. Also can't help but to notice that their interactions were always good, as well. Interestingly, O'Brien never sat well with me until I realized that he was non-com. That's actually a status I find quite intriguing. Dax was an interesting character because of her backstory. While he wasn't a main character, Garak was my favorite of all of them. My kinda guy.
I liked Tuvok and The Doctor. Janeway was alright. The rest of them should have all been left on that planet from Basics, IMO. Actually, they should have jettisoned Neelix and given the morale officer job to that sociopath guy. That would have been fantastic.
My opinions might change once I get around to rewatching the Voyager, which should happen in about 2 months. Until then, my recollection is that I really didn't like very many of them.
-
I was thinking along the lines of when a character like Kira is so non dimensional and all she does it play that "Bitch character" I tend to not like the character. I think in the limited time with Ro, you found out about her hardship as a child and because she was a minor character it was ok. As a main character, the writers needed to flush out Kira's character and make her less hardened like they did.
I know what they were going after with hr character bit I personally didn't like it.
-
Well as long as you like O'Brien, my favorite of all ST characters. And yea, I agree Garak was all kinds of awesome.
Also, Kings, how can you call Kira's character non dimensional? I mean sure...in the first season or 2, but she had a tremendous amount of growth and development throughout the show. Keep in my who she was in season 1 and that she ended the show leading the Cardassian resistance to free them.
-
It's a real shame that Michelle Forbes turned down DS9. The Ro Laren character was wasted on TNG, and I really hated Kyra Nerys. I would have much rather seen her on DS9.
You're nuts. :p I think it was a good thing Ro Laren didn't end up a part of DS9. Kira was a great character for the show, she provided a connection to the struggles of Bajor and fear of the Federation which Ro Laren could not. Having the only main cast Bajoran being someone who is more Starfleet than Bajoran, someone who doesn't even fit in with her own species... that's good? The local populace would have no primary face in the series. If anything they should have traded one of the Starfleet officers for another Bajoran militia.
When the show first started I would have agreed with you, but that's only because I liked the Ro Laren character. Looking back, I'm grateful it didn't happen. Would have been nice to see her with a guest spot or two, but oh well. She is a main character in the relaunch novels, though.
-
So...........considering doing a chronological (to the best of my abilities) rewatch of Star Trek, starting with Enterprise through Voyager.
The only problem is that DS9 runs concurrently at times with TNG and Voyager, and switching back and forth to keep it chronological would be a challenge.
-
Well, Voyager you can just throw the pilot in and then let it sit until DS9 is done. There's no true overlap, is there?
...and by chronological do you mean by stardate or airdate? For some reason I don't even think DS9 and TNG were in perfect stardate order on their own.
-
Well, Voyager you can just throw the pilot in and then let it sit until DS9 is done. There's no true overlap, is there?
...and by chronological do you mean by stardate or airdate? For some reason I don't even think DS9 and TNG were in perfect stardate order on their own.
Well because I'm still a lazy bastard at heart, the order of episodes will be decided upon solely by whatever order the DVD box set put them in. However TNG and DS9 still do overlap. But you're right about Voyager.
-
I'm guessing countless Star Trek geeks have already listed everything out in every order imaginable. You shouldn't have any trouble finding the proper order for TNG/DS9, and quite possibly Voy, as well.
However, it doesn't seem like it'd be all that interesting to do. There really wasn't much overlap when it mattered. Neither the Klingon nor Dominion war were dealt with on TNG, so you might as well just watch them in chronological order by series.
Actually, watching Enterprise first might be interesting with all of the retconning they did.
It's a real shame that Michelle Forbes turned down DS9. The Ro Laren character was wasted on TNG, and I really hated Kyra Nerys. I would have much rather seen her on DS9.
You're nuts. :p I think it was a good thing Ro Laren didn't end up a part of DS9. Kira was a great character for the show, she provided a connection to the struggles of Bajor and fear of the Federation which Ro Laren could not. Having the only main cast Bajoran being someone who is more Starfleet than Bajoran, someone who doesn't even fit in with her own species... that's good? The local populace would have no primary face in the series. If anything they should have traded one of the Starfleet officers for another Bajoran militia.
When the show first started I would have agreed with you, but that's only because I liked the Ro Laren character. Looking back, I'm grateful it didn't happen. Would have been nice to see her with a guest spot or two, but oh well. She is a main character in the relaunch novels, though.
Theses are good points, but it doesn't alter the fact that I just didn't like Kira. They could have just traded Kira for another Bajoran militia and I'd have probably been fine with it. However, I still think one of the failings of the post TOS series was the lack of tension between crew-members, and that's exactly what Ro was created for. Having Kira ride Sisko's ass doesn't really count the same as having someone from within starfleet do it. Ro could have kept her starfleet position, yet been appointed by Bajor to be the liaison, and that would have thrown out conflicts of interest all hell over the place. Remember, they started with a more or less clean slate.
-
Bart, have you watched Battlestar Galactica? It seems that show might be more to your liking (it's also the best sci-fi show ever in my opinion).
-
No, but it's on my list. It's pretty rare that I want to commit to watching hour long programs that really require attention. Committing to 75 of them even rarer. I'll get around to it, though.
-
It's a real shame that Michelle Forbes turned down DS9. The Ro Laren character was wasted on TNG, and I really hated Kyra Nerys. I would have much rather seen her on DS9.
GOD NO. I could not be happier she wasn't on the show. She was awful on TNG with her deadpan angst, she couldn't act for shit (at least based on TNG, haven't seen her in anything else), and Kira was one of the best actors/characters on DS9.
@Adami - ignore chronological order, at least with Voyager. Because they're so far away, theres very little overlap aside from the pilot, and the death of the Maquis. And having seen them all before, I wouldn't say the slight crossover with TNG/DS9 is really worth the trouble either. I'd just watch all of TNG, all of DS9, all of VOY.
-
Also, Kings, how can you call Kira's character non dimensional? I mean sure...in the first season or 2, but she had a tremendous amount of growth and development throughout the show. Keep in my who she was in season 1 and that she ended the show leading the Cardassian resistance to free them.
Sorry. That's what I meant. In the first few seasons she was one dimensional but after they did develop here character and she did grow.
-
Kira's character story in season 1 was even one of the highlights, Duet. Between Past Prologue(siding against a Bajoran terrorist), Progress(confronting her single mindedness), and Duet(accepting gray morality), her character really grew in season 1. It might be better to say her aggressiveness was blunted, but still, they got going on growing her character early. It was in the first two seasons that she came to terms with Starfleet being there and started to reevaluate Cardassians. Her character was rebuilt pebble by pebble, not so much by monumental landslides.
-
Sometimes a character rubs me that wrong way and Kira was like that. So was Troi on TNG but thank the stars her character evolved. It doesn't stop me from watching a show but you're not invested as much when you don't like a character.
-
You don'[t have to like her, I just think it's silly to say they didn't work on her during the first two seasons. She had some big wake up calls which formed the beginnings of her change throughout the series. I don't even think Emissary Kira would be able to stand What You Leave Behind Kira.
-
Holy crap, I just yesterday watched the mother of all T'Pol porn episodes, "Bounty". Jesus Christ, I was expecting to have Phlox at some point mount her and get it over with.
rumborak
-
:lol Yeah, that one completely lacked any subtlety. Not that Enterprise was that subtle with the sex appeal anyway...... like Hoshi conveniently losing her shirt........... (can't remember the episode for that one)
I've also never understood the Vulcan's embarrassment with the pon farr. Embarrassment is an emotion, and it's not very logical to try and hide information about your mating cycle when hiding and avoiding it will result in DEATH. I mean, I can understand it while they're under the influence of the pon farr, but not the rest of the time. It never made sense in TOS, and never made sense since. A huge plot hole imo.
-
I always understood the Vulcan's reluctance to discuss it to stem from the embarrassment that once every 7 years their precious logic got overwhelmed by their baser instincts. On the other hand you're of course right, they could just treat it like a "disease" and thus logically approach it.
In that whole episode, T'Pol's skimpy outfit also made little sense. Wanna fuck Phlox? I doubt you keep your shirt on.
rumborak
-
The pon farr thing might also just be a matter of discretion. You might recall that Kirk didn't seem real comfortable discussing it with Spock, and he nailed half the galaxy. While a certain amount of chatter about one's sex life is acceptable, I generally don't care to hear about details, particularly when we're talking about close friends. I can see how decorum and modesty might have created a situation where Vulcans just don't like talking about the thing.
-
The pon farr thing might also just be a matter of discretion. You might recall that Kirk didn't seem real comfortable discussing it with Spock, and he nailed half the galaxy. While a certain amount of chatter about one's sex life is acceptable, I generally don't care to hear about details, particularly when we're talking about close friends. I can see how decorum and modesty might have created a situation where Vulcans just don't like talking about the thing.
If their sex was the same as ours, then it would make perfect sense. It wouldn't really need to be discussed. But when a lack of dealing with their urges in one way or another results in death, why would they withhold that information from every outsider for the sake of modesty? Choosing that over their own survival isn't at all logical. I'm talking more about the physical effect of the pon farr on the Vulcan body than the sexual aspect of it. Remember, McCoy had absolutely no clue about it at all, and he was the doctor.
Their behaviour on the matter has always felt too emotionally driven for me.
-
The pon farr thing might also just be a matter of discretion. You might recall that Kirk didn't seem real comfortable discussing it with Spock, and he nailed half the galaxy. While a certain amount of chatter about one's sex life is acceptable, I generally don't care to hear about details, particularly when we're talking about close friends. I can see how decorum and modesty might have created a situation where Vulcans just don't like talking about the thing.
If their sex was the same as ours, then it would make perfect sense. It wouldn't really need to be discussed. But when a lack of dealing with their urges in one way or another results in death, why would they withhold that information from every outsider for the sake of modesty? Choosing that over their own survival isn't at all logical. I'm talking more about the physical effect of the pon farr on the Vulcan body than the sexual aspect of it. Remember, McCoy had absolutely no clue about it at all, and he was the doctor.
Their behaviour on the matter has always felt too emotionally driven for me.
If there's one thing we've learned about Vulcans, it's that they're not the perfect logical emotionless beings they try to present themselves as.
-
The pon farr thing might also just be a matter of discretion. You might recall that Kirk didn't seem real comfortable discussing it with Spock, and he nailed half the galaxy. While a certain amount of chatter about one's sex life is acceptable, I generally don't care to hear about details, particularly when we're talking about close friends. I can see how decorum and modesty might have created a situation where Vulcans just don't like talking about the thing.
If their sex was the same as ours, then it would make perfect sense. It wouldn't really need to be discussed. But when a lack of dealing with their urges in one way or another results in death, why would they withhold that information from every outsider for the sake of modesty? Choosing that over their own survival isn't at all logical. I'm talking more about the physical effect of the pon farr on the Vulcan body than the sexual aspect of it. Remember, McCoy had absolutely no clue about it at all, and he was the doctor.
Their behaviour on the matter has always felt too emotionally driven for me.
If there's one thing we've learned about Vulcans, it's that they're not the perfect logical emotionless beings they try to present themselves as.
Certainly not in Enterprise (which is why we got that awful season 4 arc trying to explain why the Vulcans in the show were so pathetic). But while individually they may have the occasional flaw or slip, as a race it makes no sense that the rest of Starfleet would be 100% clueless about why Vulcans go nuts every 7 years, and no Vulcan is willing to explain it. TOS has a lot to answer for at times.
-
The doctors usually knew. The same applied to Klingons. Remember when Worf had his whatever he had and only the doctor knew about it and wouldn't tell anyone.
-
I can't remember if Phlox new, but McCoy didn't have the slightest clue despite having an important Vulcan first officer on board. In fact he seemed to know basically jackshit about Vulcan physiology. :lol
-
I can't remember if Phlox new, but McCoy didn't have the slightest clue despite having an important Vulcan first officer on board. In fact he seemed to know basically jackshit about Vulcan physiology. :lol
ToS had no real sense of......continuity really. They just kind of did whatever they wanted, and the rest of the shows had to try to keep up with some of their decisions.
-
I can't remember if Phlox new, but McCoy didn't have the slightest clue despite having an important Vulcan first officer on board. In fact he seemed to know basically jackshit about Vulcan physiology. :lol
ToS had no real sense of......continuity really. They just kind of did whatever they wanted, and the rest of the shows had to try to keep up with some of their decisions.
That's what I'm saying. I think TOS set a bad precedent with the pon farr here, that unfortunately had to get carried through to the later series (along with various other continuity problems they tried to tip toe around). There was a lot about Amok Time that made little sense, as great as the episode is.
-
The TOS crew, along with us the audience, were learning about everything as we went along. Theoretically humans and Vulcans had been friends for a while, and Vulcans were part of the Federation. But beyond that, what? We don't know how long they'd been in the Federation, and it seems that there were very few of them anyway. Why would they share something with us that they barely spoke of amongst themselves?
Spock may well have been the first Vulcan to serve as a bridge officer and possibly the first to serve in Star Fleet at all. Sarek was bummed that Spock chose to attend Star Fleet Academy rather than the Vulcan Science Academy. I don't think it's that ridiculous that they have a bizarre biological trait that others didn't know about.
-
The TOS crew, along with us the audience, were learning about everything as we went along. Theoretically humans and Vulcans had been friends for a while, and Vulcans were part of the Federation. But beyond that, what? We don't know how long they'd been in the Federation, and it seems that there were very few of them anyway. Why would they share something with us that they barely spoke of amongst themselves?
Spock may well have been the first Vulcan to serve as a bridge officer and possibly the first to serve in Star Fleet at all. Sarek was bummed that Spock chose to attend Star Fleet Academy rather than the Vulcan Science Academy. I don't think it's that ridiculous that they have a bizarre biological trait that others didn't know about.
There's just too much contradicting information to say anything for certain, because TOS was dreadful for canon.
At times it definitely seems that Spock is unique in Starfleet, but there was also another Starfleet ship that was entirely Vulcans (the USS Intrepid), so obviously the answer to how long they'd been part of the Federation was "long enough".
I still find it ridiculous that nobody in Starfleet had ever even heard of the pon farr. In the 23rd century, how would an unavoidable regular mating practice of an entire race, Earth's main ally, completely elude the highest ranked crew members of Starfleet's flagship, one that has a Vulcan on board? It makes no sense. It happens every 7 years, so Spock knew he was going to be on board the Enterprise when it happened, and he knew it would result in death if not dealt with. His behaviour during the episode can be explained by the pon farr weakening his ability to repress his emotions, but it doesn't excuse the scenario happening in the first place.
Why would the Vulcans withhold this information? If they don't want people to know that they regularly lose their logic, then the reason is shame, which is an emotion, which is somewhat an ironic reason. If it's because it's related to sex, then it's seemingly nothing more than embarrassment, and there's no logic to any emotionally derived taboo existing there either. There's no logic to modesty being valued more highly than life itself.
tl;dr - TOS screwed over Star Trek.
-
Amok Time was Spock's first pon farr. As he said, he thought his human half prevented the occurrence.
The fact that Vulcans don't like to talk about it doesn't surprise me. It sort of reminds me of the Japanese, who generally prefer to stay the hell out of other people's business. Look no further than the chikan phenomenon to understand just how far some cultures will take privacy.
As for Intrepid, that actually seems a pretty reasonable way to go about it. Particularly since half the crew would no doubt be female.
-
I forgot about it being Spock's first pon farr, or him thinking it may not afflict him at all, so that mostly excuses Spock (I'm not sure how canonical it is, but I believe he is supposed to be the first Human/Vulcan hybrid, so that's a fair point).
But the rest of the argument still holds up. Vulcans are Earth's main ally in TOS. McCoy is arguably one of Starfleet's top doctors, indicated by his position on the flagship. At no point had he even picked up on the slightest hint that Vulcans go entirely batshit crazy every 7 years, and have to screw each other's brains out or else they die. There is just no way this doesn't come out at some point. Not to mention that McCoy doesn't even seem to know Spock's heart from his rectum most of the time.
And I still see no logical reason at all why they feel any need to withhold this information that isn't emotionally motivated. I think it's a contradiction. The entire situation was a contrivance for the sake of a fun story where you had Spock come down with a mysterious illness that turns out to be mandatory sex addiction. That's all good and well for the one episode, but in the grand scheme, it still makes no sense to me. Obviously at the time they never expected it would still be analyzed by people 40+ years later. :lol
-
That's really what it comes down to. It was an episodic TV series that frankly was never meant to be dissected like this. At the time, we got enough explanation to make the plot of the episode work, as long as you didn't look too closely for holes, and there's no way that they could predict that the same characters and universe would be around for four or five more TV series and eight or ten movies over the next several decades. It's kinda fun to pick it apart, maybe just as fun to try and defend it, but I don't think the word "canon" as it know it today was ever a consideration back in the 60's.
-
Does the entire Vulcan species experience pon farr every 7 years or do individual Vulcans experience it every 7 years based on their birth? I think it would be far less obvious if it were the latter.
-
Does the entire Vulcan species experience pon farr every 7 years or do individual Vulcans experience it every 7 years based on their birth? I think it would be far less obvious if it were the latter.
The latter.
-
If you're a married Vulcan or have a girlfriend, it's no big deal. You both take a week off for vacation, a lot of slamming takes place, and then you resume normal life. Pretty easy to keep on the down low. Even if your friends ask about it, you tell them you'll be on vacation that week (with a little arch to the eyebrow as you say it) and everyone understands, as they've all been there.
Single Vulcans might have more issues, but maybe they save up their money for a week in the Vulcan equivalent of the Red-Light District and again, you just tell your friends you're on vacation and you'll catch up with them later.
-
Okay, I have to say this because no one else will get it (though you guys might think differently of me after). But remember that episode of Voyager where that Vulcan had a holographic girl created for his Pan Farr so that he wouldn't murder whoever it was he was trying to seduce? Well he clearly had his Vulcan way with her by the end. So..............what happened to his......Vulcan man juice? When the hologram ended, where did his stuff go?
-
Okay, I have to say this because no one else will get it (though you guys might think differently of me after). But remember that episode of Voyager where that Vulcan had a holographic girl created for his Pan Farr so that he wouldn't murder whoever it was he was trying to seduce? Well he clearly had his Vulcan way with her by the end. So..............what happened to his......Vulcan man juice? When the hologram ended, where did his stuff go?
Let's face it - the holodeck was invented for sex. The holodeck probably has a rinse cycle between uses, then dumps all of the raw material back into the replicator systems. Ever wondered why that replicated sammich just didn't quite taste right? Best not to ask.
-
Which brings up an odd but interesting point. Can one lose their virginity to a hologram? If so, can one marry a hologram? I assume by the 23rd or whatever century that gay marriage was made legal, which means marrying cartoons was made legal. So can you marry a hologram?
-
Which brings up an odd but interesting point. Can one lose their virginity to a hologram? If so, can one marry a hologram? I assume by the 23rd or whatever century that gay marriage was made legal, which means marrying cartoons was made legal. So can you marry a hologram?
Sure you can. In Endgame, The Doc gets married to a pretty young blond thing. And incest is absolutely rampant too. That's why Janeway had to go back in time and change the timeline. Just think of the benefits. The Doctor programmed his own sex sub routines, so imagine what a female sex hologram could do for you. She knows to stay in the kitchen, and she's never going to age, or get loose after popping out a few holokids.
-
Which brings up an odd but interesting point. Can one lose their virginity to a hologram? If so, can one marry a hologram? I assume by the 23rd or whatever century that gay marriage was made legal, which means marrying cartoons was made legal. So can you marry a hologram?
Sure you can. In Endgame, The Doc gets "married" to a pretty young blond thing. And incest is absolutely rampant too. That's why Janeway had to go back in time and change the timeline. Just think of the "benefits". The Doctor programmed his own sex sub routines, so imagine what a female sex hologram could do for you. She knows to stay in the kitchen, and she's never going "to" age, or get loose after popping out a few holokids.
FTFY.
-
Vulcan Love Slave II--The Revenge
:rollin
-
I can't believe what I'm watching right now. A Vulcan zombie episode. Who the hell wrote that script?!
rumborak
-
I can't believe what I'm watching right now. A Vulcan zombie episode. Who the hell wrote that script?!
rumborak
Which one was this? Ohhhh yea, I remember that. Yea, not the best episode but a great season over all.
-
In other news . .
Star Trek 2 / 12 has wrapped.
Only a year to wait !
:biggrin:
-
Considering that Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are the 2 worst writers making huge hollywood movies at the movie, I have very little excitement for this movie. Those two need to be fired immediately from the movie business as they are the worst writers since Ed Wood.
-
It wasn't the writers that disappointed me last time. It was JJA. However, none of it really matters. Today's movie going audience won't allow them to make a decent movie, regardless of who writes and directs.
Something didn't occur to me until just last night. Enterprise still has to be considered canon, since Nemo's timeline tinkering occurs 72 years after the end of Enterprise. It's interesting to me that they erased everything that was well crafted and thought out, and left in place the aspects that were forced and contrived.
This could have some interesting ramifications, such as old school Klingons.
-
It wasn't the writers that disappointed me last time. It was JJA. However, none of it really matters. Today's movie going audience won't allow them to make a decent movie, regardless of who writes and directs.
Something didn't occur to me until just last night. Enterprise still has to be considered canon, since Nemo's timeline tinkering occurs 72 years after the end of Enterprise. It's interesting to me that they erased everything that was well crafted and thought out, and left in place the aspects that were forced and contrived.
This could have some interesting ramifications, such as old school Klingons.
JJA left way too much flare and stuff. But the movie was poorly written. When the story is terrible, the dialogue is bad and the characters make no sense at all, that's the writers fault.
-
It wasn't the writers that disappointed me last time. It was JJA. However, none of it really matters. Today's movie going audience won't allow them to make a decent movie, regardless of who writes and directs.
Something didn't occur to me until just last night. Enterprise still has to be considered canon, since Nemo's timeline tinkering occurs 72 years after the end of Enterprise. It's interesting to me that they erased everything that was well crafted and thought out, and left in place the aspects that were forced and contrived.
(https://www.lilformers.com/comics/2009-06-15.jpg)
-
Whose.
Watching the Wild West episode right now. I'm sorry, but a swat team with phase guns and warp drives are being held at bay by some gunslingers? I hate the things writers will do to get an action scene.
rumborak
-
Whose.
Watching the Wild West episode right now. I'm sorry, but a swat team with phase guns and warp drives are being held at bay by some gunslingers? I hate the things writers will do to get an action scene.
rumborak
Situations like that just annoy the crap out of me too. You've got phasers set to stun, so go to town on them! And you've got a ship with transporters and all kinds of weapons, and would only need a second to sneakily contact them.
The worst one is Fairhaven from Voyager. The one episode of Trek I couldn't even sit through. They basically get held by country hick holograms with pitchforks or something? Can't remember the full story, but it was painful. :lol
-
Whose.
Yeah. Bummer, too, because he makes a good point, but the whole comic is weakened by this.
-
Whose.
Yeah. Bummer, too, because he makes a good point, but the whole comic is weakened by this.
If it helps, it's Archer saying/using it, so it sort of strengthens the point of him being an idiot. :P
-
Kinda. Archer may not have always been the most eloquent, but we're seeing a transcription of his spoken words. He didn't somehow mispronounce the word in such a way that it would be spelled incorrectly; the comic artist used the wrong word.
But mostly, stuff like this bugs me because I notice it right away and it diminishes the impact of any statement the comic might be making. It doesn't just bug me because it's wrong; I actually am bothered by the fact that it bothers me and I should just let it go. But I can't.
-
Kinda. Archer may not have always been the most eloquent, but we're seeing a transcription of his spoken words. He didn't somehow mispronounce the word in such a way that it would be spelled incorrectly; the comic artist used the wrong word.
I know, I'm just messing around. :lol
I still like it despite the typo, although typos bug me too. Just not that much in this particular instance.
-
Considering that Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are the 2 worst writers making huge hollywood movies at the movie, I have very little excitement for this movie. Those two need to be fired immediately from the movie business as they are the worst writers since Ed Wood.
I *loved* Star Trek ( 2009 ).
Everything about it.
Super excited for the next one as long as they don't fuck up Wrath of khan.
-
I'm glad you loved it, but the writing was still horrible. I enjoyed the movie for the most part too, just...meh.
Also the next movie would take place before or during the Space Seed stuff, wayyyyyy before Wrath of Khan.
-
Shoot me - but ST(2009) is my 2nd favourite Trek after TWOK and i've been a trek fan since I was tiny.
Fuck Da police.
-
Shoot me - but ST(2009) is my 2nd favourite Trek after TWOK and i've been a trek fan since I was tiny.
Fuck Da police.
I'll admit the opening sequence was great. I had no problems with the whole Romulan's from the future with 0 motivation to do what they did. I even turned a blind eye to Kirk going from a cadet to a captain at the end of the movie for no real reason. I looked past the complete lack of personality in Sulu, Chekov, Uhura, and most of the others. I ignored Kirk being an awful leader. But Spock ejecting Kirk onto an ice planet for no reason other than he was annoyed? Spock having emotions the ENTIRE movie despite claiming he doesn't? In the end, it was a super shallow movie. It was excuse after excuse to have action scenes. There was no internal logic, no sense of consistency, no desire for the story to make much sense. As long as things went bang and people talked fast and quickly at all times, then the masses won't care. This movie was written for the masses of movie fans who want eye candy and fast action. Star Trek isn't about that, although I guess it is now.
-
Nemesis was a terrible story and pointless action too and people stayed away in their droves.
ST2009 appealed to non trekkers as well as hardcore trekkers. No other film did that.
Meh - agree to disagree - I loved it.
I also love films with mostly plot and not much action like Inception etc.
-
Nemesis was a terrible story and pointless action too and people stayed away in their droves.
ST2009 appealed to non trekkers as well as hardcore trekkers. No other film did that.
Meh - agree to disagree - I loved it.
I also love films with mostly plot and not much action like Inception etc.
What does Nemesis have to do with this? Of course that's a terrible movie too. But it being bad doesn't make ST2009 any better.
And ST2009 was written for fans of modern action movies. Star Trek wasn't supposed to be an action franchise. It's a franchise about characters, interestinge stories, and a unique look at the future. The new movie had action, and none of the rest. It's a new Star Trek that is written for non trekkers, not hardcore trek fans, even if a few of them did love it.
-
Also the next movie would take place before or during the Space Seed stuff, wayyyyyy before Wrath of Khan.
That wouldn't prevent them from fucking up TWoK, though. The consensus seems to be that Kahn would be the exact same character right up to the point that Kirk defrosts him, at which point he would become increasingly different. Since there's no reason to think that Kirk would strand him on CA-V again, latter events would be completely different.
But to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure the people making these movies really care that much anyway. They seem like they'd be perfectly willing to blow off such matters and make Khan into whatever action movie bad guy they want him to be. Remember, none of these people were Star Trek fans to begin with, and the people who are fans will go to see it regardless of how silly it is.
edit: and I pretty much agree with Adami on this. Hence my earlier remark that today's movie going audiences won't allow a good ST movie to be made anymore.
-
Also the next movie would take place before or during the Space Seed stuff, wayyyyyy before Wrath of Khan.
That wouldn't prevent them from fucking up TWoK, though. The consensus seems to be that Kahn would be the exact same character right up to the point that Kirk defrosts him, at which point he would become increasingly different. Since there's no reason to think that Kirk would strand him on CA-V again, latter events would be completely different.
But to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure the people making these movies really care that much anyway. They seem like they'd be perfectly willing to blow off such matters and make Khan into whatever action movie bad guy they want him to be. Remember, none of these people were Star Trek fans to begin with, and the people who are fans will go to see it regardless of how silly it is.
edit: and I pretty much agree with Adami on this. Hence my earlier remark that today's movie going audiences won't allow a good ST movie to be made anymore.
Oh of course it will screw with TWOK. The last movie movie screwed with every single episode/movie of Star Trek that took place after it, so the last movie already screwed with TWOK. I was just pointing out a great misconception (not here I guess) that because Khan is in it, that it is somehow related to TWOK.
-
Honestly, I think they should go out with a bang. Don't try to revive the franchise, but instead have a movie about them trying to rectify the timeline, with the end result being successful and thus tying back into the familiar canon. Because let's face it, how likely is it they'll get the actors back together for a third time?
rumborak
-
Honestly, I think they should go out with a bang. Don't try to revive the franchise, but instead have a movie about them trying to rectify the timeline, with the end result being successful and thus tying back into the familiar canon. Because let's face it, how likely is it they'll get the actors back together for a third time?
rumborak
Star Trek works better as a TV show, let's face it. And you have a point about getting the actors together for a 3rd movie. The original actors were essentially defined by their ST roles, while these new actors aren't in the slightest bit, this is just work to them. I think the franchise needs a new TV show. Obviously the prequel idea didn't work. I say get the enterprise H or whatever, have it set in the future of TNG. Have a few cameos by people, but make it fresh and original. Hell, make it dark...since that seems to be when Sci-fi works best.
-
The problem with the prequel approach as it was attempted was that it really bore little resemblance to actual Star Trek, aside from the terminology. It was well before anything that we could actually relate to, and the tone of the show was radically different than what we associate with ST. A prequel to the TNG era would have/could work. We're already well versed in what came before and after, so it's not a foreign world to the viewer. The style of production is just something they'll have to work out.
I think that doing another TNG to TNG would suffer the same problems as Enterprise. If they jump forward another 70 years, then it'll be back to foreign land.
But yeah, I agree that it just really doesn't work with movies. Since a movie nowadays costs 100m and is a flop if it doesn't make 4x that, the costs are too high to do something interesting. That pretty much rules out sci-fi in favor of action and eye-candy. If you're looking at 74 episodes, you can afford to take some chances and tell some interesting stories.
-
Foreign land isn't a bad thing. Keep in mind TNG was completely new and different than TOS, same with DS9 and to a lesser degree, Voyager. One positive thing about making one in the future is not caring a whole lot about preserving continuity. You have the rules, you just have to keep them in mind to set the stages. It's not like the prequels, where every move you make has an effect on the rest of the franchise.
Also, on the note you made about it baring virtually no resemblence to Star Trek (the new movie that is), am I the only one who hated the new design for engineering?
-
I've been thinking, for a race that isn't supposed to lie, the Vulcans sure do lie a lot.
-
Also, on the note you made about it baring virtually no resemblence to Star Trek (the new movie that is), am I the only one who hated the new design for engineering?
The better question is was there anyone who didn't hate the brewery...... I mean "engineering"? That was awful, and made no sense.
And completely agreed that Trek works better as a TV show. Always has, probably always will as long as Hollywood only cares about appealing to the average viewing public. I realistically think this current cast will make it to 3 movies, unless the 2nd is a huge flop. Movies tend to come in 3's these days anyway. I think after that, they'll probably stop, and then we might get a new series shortly after.
-
For what it's worth, I don't think Paramount is going to throw away the mainstream ST timeline completely just because of the JJA movie. If they had wanted to do that, then they just would have done a straight reboot without the justification of the whole time travel continuity fucking-up story with Spock and Nero. They will probably come back to it at some point, hopefully with a TV series, because the small screen is where Trek really belongs.
As for the Abrams films, to me it is just a question of how long it's going to last. I mean, is he going to pull a Chris Nolan thing and only do a trilogy and then call it a day? If that is the case, it would be nice if he tied up his little Star Trek series by having the main continuity restored at the end of the third film. For the most part, enjoyed the '09 film, but I think it only worked because of JJ's approach to film making, and I'd rather he not leave his ST timeline open for some Hollywood hack director to fuck around with Trek.
And yes, the brewery was a horrible idea for an engine room.
-
I really don't see the original timeline being restored. The original timeline was explored pretty thoroughly, so unless they plan to do a post-Nemesis series, canon is going to box them in just as it did with Enterprise. And if they really want to capitalize on the new movies reviving the franchise, their wisest bet would be to associate with that timeline.
Just as the safest bet for the new movies was to reboot TOS, I think their safest bet for a new series would be a reboot of TNG. That's what I see as the most likely scenario if they want a scifi series to last, however I really hope they have the balls to do an entirely original series.
-
Since the only thing I liked about the reboot was the case, I wonder if there's any possibility of spinning the movies off onto TV. Weren't most of these guys (save Simon Pegg) TV people anyway?
-
Since the only thing I liked about the reboot was the case, I wonder if there's any possibility of spinning the movies off onto TV. Weren't most of these guys (save Simon Pegg) TV people anyway?
No, most are movie actors. Except for the actor playing Spock.
-
Since the only thing I liked about the reboot was the case, I wonder if there's any possibility of spinning the movies off onto TV. Weren't most of these guys (save Simon Pegg) TV people anyway?
No, most are movie actors. Except for the actor playing Spock.
Zach Quinto was TV yea, and has done very little else. And while Pegg isn't TV anymore, don't forget that he did get his start on TV. However aside from Bones, the cast was terrible.
Oh except Pike. He was cool, but he had virtually nothing to live up to so he had a lot more freedom.
-
I know a lot of people hated it, but I actually liked Pegg's take on Scotty. If anything just for the fact that you're not listening to a cringe-inducing Scottish accent.
rumborak
-
His Scotty might have been alright if it weren't strictly comedy relief. Honestly, I couldn't take him seriously enough to form an opinion. As for the cast in general, I thought they were all fine and reasonably true to what their characters should be. Spock's issue was that he was young and arrogant, just like Kirk. Given a few years experience he could be much like we expect him to be.
-
One thing that was always a bit of a bummer in terms of script writing is that despite every computer system since the 70s had login screens, every ST ship's computers were open as a barn door. There's been so many episodes of
"Captain, they're accessing the computers!"
"Lock them out!"
"I can't, it's too late!"
rumborak
-
Since the only thing I liked about the reboot was the case, I wonder if there's any possibility of spinning the movies off onto TV. Weren't most of these guys (save Simon Pegg) TV people anyway?
No, most are movie actors. Except for the actor playing Spock.
Zach Quinto was TV yea, and has done very little else. And while Pegg isn't TV anymore, don't forget that he did get his start on TV. However aside from Bones, the cast was terrible.
Oh except Pike. He was cool, but he had virtually nothing to live up to so he had a lot more freedom.
Oh yeah I know about Pegg and TV but he's full on a movie star for a while. To be honest I'd have to look up the others. I've seen them in plenty of movies but I can't tell you without looking online. I do think they went that way with unknown movie actors for a reason.
And Rumbo, there will always be an intergalactic nerds making viruses just to piss off the masses. That damn Federation. :lol
-
I dunno, I just watched an ENT episode where religious whackos deleted all records of those spheres. Seriously? Enterprise doesn't make backups?
rumborak
-
I dunno, I just watched an ENT episode where religious whackos deleted all records of those spheres. Seriously? Enterprise doesn't make backups?
rumborak
I assume you don't hate everything about ST. But it would be nice if you posted here for more reasons than to list things you don't like. It happens enough with Senior Simpson, a little praise might help this thread a little.
-
Oh, I love Star Trek! Sorry if the impression was otherwise. I'm actually enjoying season 3 of ENT quite a bit.
rumborak
-
:lol
Man I forgot about that episode. You keep looking for these things and your head will explode. I try not to worry about all the little mistakes. It takes away from my enjoyment of the show unless it's a whopper.
-
Oh, I love Star Trek! Sorry if the impression was otherwise. I'm actually enjoying season 3 of ENT quite a bit.
rumborak
Oh I figured you did. It's just you pop in to complain (like most of us) and then when things are good, we tend to stay silent.
-
To say something positive, I don't agree with the many people that said Enterprise was crap. I think it's actually pretty good. Obviously not as good as the others, but certainly not any worse than Voyager.
rumborak
-
The first season of Enterprise was ok but the 3rd and 4th were fantastic. Too bad UPN killed it when it was hitting it's stride.
-
I can't help but wonder how the hell they moved the Andorians' antennas. That's not CGI, is it?
rumborak
-
I can't help but wonder how the hell they moved the Andorians' antennas. That's not CGI, is it?
rumborak
No, it's real. They're robotic is all. Probably an operator off screen moving them remotely.
Also, yea I'm re-watching Enterprise too, and while the 1st season had some REALLY bad moments, the 3rd and 4th were good, the 3rd being mostly amazing. However....Enterprise does have the stigma of having the worst final episode of any show ever.
-
What Adami said. I read that online somewhere. I loved Jeffry Combs as Shran. Hell, I loved every role he's played in all the TV shows.
-
What Adami said. I read that online somewhere. I loved Jeffry Combs as Shran. Hell, I loved every role he's played in all the TV shows.
Well said pink skin.
-
I actually looked him up on Memory Alpha, and he supposedly played the most roles on Star Trek. Even though, their counting was lame, they considered each Weyoun as separate. And even included holograms.
The guy who played General Whatsit on ENT is much more impressive. He really played shitloads of characters.
rumborak
-
I actually looked him up on Memory Alpha, and he supposedly played the most roles on Star Trek. Even though, their counting was lame, they considered each Weyoun as separate. And even included holograms.
The guy who played General Whatsit on ENT is much more impressive. He really played shitloads of characters.
rumborak
As far as numbers, Combs doesn't come close. But he stole every scene he's in as almost any character. Plus he did play 2 characters in one episode (not talking about 2 clones).
-
He's really the perfect villain, in whatever role. He has that snarky quality to him, that's what makes him so great.
rumborak
-
To defend the Senior Simpson school of thought, there's a great deal I like about the shows. TOS was fantastic television, and I've said numerous times that my regard for TNG has increased a fair amount since I started watching. I have little bad to say about DS9, except that I thought Kira sucked. Voyager had several episodes that I thought were very good, despite not really liking any of those people.
There are a few things I bitch about, and that's not likely to change. Most of it has to do with the fact that the post-TOS characters are boring and lifeless, due in large part to Roddenberry's far too positive outlook of the future.
And Shran was great. He was almost certainly the best part of Enterprise.
-
He's really the perfect villain, in whatever role. He has that snarky quality to him, that's what makes him so great.
rumborak
I consider Shran more of a good guy really. And he's good at anything.
Also Bart, I was just pointing out that a Star Trek thread that consists mostly of people popping in to list the things they don't like is really lame. Complaining is fine, but there's no reason we can't have a great deal more positive conversation about Star Trek (minus the horrible new movies and Voyager).
-
I've personally never understood people's love for TOS. To me it's the WDADU of Star Trek; I'm glad it exists because it facilitated the awesomeness that came after,but itself is too campy for me to have the desire to watch an episode.
rumborak
-
I've personally never understood people's love for TOS. To me it's the WDADU of Star Trek; I'm glad it exists because it facilitated the awesomeness that came after,but itself is too campy for me to have the desire to watch an episode.
rumborak
It had a few REALLY great episodes. But TOS movies are better than the TV show. It's really the chemistry between Bones, Kirk and Spock that makes it work. I also like what John Locke from lost had to say in an episode of Lost when Boone tells him about the red shirt dying thing. "Sounds like a piss poor captain to me".
-
The chemistry IMHO only really worked in the movies. In the TOS episodes I always thought it was all about Spock and Kirk, and McCoy kinda was the grumpy grandpa yelling at Kirk. Luckily they improved his character for the movies.
rumborak
-
The chemistry IMHO only really worked in the movies. In the TOS episodes I always thought it was all about Spock and Kirk, and McCoy kinda was the grumpy grandpa yelling at Kirk. Luckily they improved his character for the movies.
rumborak
When I'm done with the Enterprise re-watch, I'll do TOS again. I actually never finished the 3rd season of TOS because I couldn't bare to watch it anymore. And I have seen every episode of Voyager multiple times.
-
Would that apply to Piccard, as well? How many helmsman did he go through during that series? But of course that's another thing that I think made TOS a better show. They were dealing with unknowns that stood a good chance of killing them. TNG had ghosts in candles that sadly didn't kill anybody. Anyhoo, the K/S/M dynamic absolutely made TOS and qualified it as excellent television in my book. Aside from the fact that they were each exceptional at what they did, and Kirk certainly was excellent at his job, combined they were greater than the sum of the parts. Nothing the TNG group ever did made me think that. As I've said, almost every one of them was replaceable.
-
Would that apply to Piccard, as well? How many helmsman did he go through during that series? But of course that's another thing that I think made TOS a better show. They were dealing with unknowns that stood a good chance of killing them. TNG had ghosts in candles that sadly didn't kill anybody. Anyhoo, the K/S/M dynamic absolutely made TOS and qualified it as excellent television in my book. Aside from the fact that they were each exceptional at what they did, and Kirk certainly was excellent at his job, combined they were greater than the sum of the parts. Nothing the TNG group ever did made me think that. As I've said, almost every one of them was replaceable.
During the first season or two when they tried their best to make TNG as much like TOS as possible, then yes it does apply to him.
-
I agree that TNG was maybe a bit too squeaky clean at times, but they had awesome plots that, frankly, TOS episodes could only have dreamed about.
To me TNG + DS9 are still the great Star Trek behemoths.
rumborak
-
I agree that TNG was maybe a bit too squeaky clean at times, but they had awesome plots that, frankly, TOS episodes could only have dreamed about.
rumborak
I agree. The best plots of TNG were infinitely better than TOS. They also had a similar number of piss-poor plots every bit as bad as TOS's worst.
-
Hells yeah. It's amazing that the same series which produced episodes like Best of both Worlds and Time's Arrow, also did Sub Rosa (where Crusher fucks a candle) or the one with the Tar Monster that kills Tasha.
rumborak
-
Hells yeah. It's amazing that the same series which produced episodes like Best of both Worlds and Time's Arrow, also did Sub Rosa (where Crusher fucks a candle) or the one with the Tar Monster that kills Tasha.
rumborak
Sub Rosa, thanks that's one I have to figure out if I am going to skip while I re-watch TNG.
-
So I'm watching the episode of Enterprise where Archer goes on Klingon trial and Martok (or whatever he's called here) gives a very awesome insight into the Klingons. "Did you really think that all Klingon's were warriors?" and the whole bit about a time when Klingon's earned their honor through integrity and not just senseless blood shed. Seriously great moment in Star Trek if you ask me.
-
Hells yeah. It's amazing that the same series which produced episodes like Best of both Worlds and Time's Arrow, also did Sub Rosa (where Crusher fucks a candle) or the one with the Tar Monster that kills Tasha.
rumborak
Sub Rosa, thanks that's one I have to figure out if I am going to skip while I re-watch TNG.
Man, that's a no-brainer for me. I've ended up skipping about 3 per season. I'm really trying to watch as many of them as I can, but there's really only so much I'm willing to subject myself to. Pretty much if the first words you hear are Troi's or Crusher's personal log, it's probably gonna suck. Today's "I can't fucking watch this" moment was the episode with Riker nailing the androgynous chick. Hell, even Frakes thought it was weak.
-
Actually, you might not want to skip all Crusher episodes. The one about the metaphasic shield is pretty good.
Definitely skip Shades of Grey though. All just cuts from previous episodes
rumborak
-
Actually, you might not want to skip all Crusher episodes. The one about the metaphasic shield is pretty good.
Definitely skip Shades of Grey though. All just cuts from previous episodes
rumborak
I pretty much never pay attention to episode names, so you're going to have to describe the plot somewhat. I know Sub Rosa for the same reason I am aware of things like AIDS and Cancer. Is the metaphasic shielding the one where she is caught inside a warp bubble and everyone is disappearing?
-
I think he's referring to the one where she has to take command for some reason. Maybe the entire crew is on the planet or something. Could be that she gets stuck in the separated saucer section.
And I don't skip all Crusher episodes. Just the ones that deal with her in a personal capacity. Crusher's personal log: way out. CMO's log: often good.
-
Actually the metaphasic shield episode is about Crusher inviting scientists onboard to test a Ferengi's new shield that makes them able to fly into sun corona. Actually made another appearance in the episode you mention where Crusher takes command and they destroy a Klingon ship inside the corona.
rumborak
-
Yeah, just saw that. As I recall, Decent (the episode I was thinking of) was actually quite disappointing for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is Piccard beaming the entire freaking crew down, leaving Crusher in command. Pretty weak plot contrivance.
And today's episode (Worf breaks his spine, sulks a lot) seems to be the first hint of the Worf/Troi hookup. Am I the only one who found that utterly and completely ridiculous? Really, that's one of the biggest reasons my recollection of the show is so poor.
-
Frankly, it was almost the only solution. Picard and Crusher had something but they couldn't violate the distance of the captain without sacrificing the character. Riker was an intergalactic callboy and probably already had space herpes, so any hookup would have looked like yet another fling. So, Worf and Troi were essentially the only two options, as little sense that made.
rumborak
-
Frankly, it was almost the only solution. Picard and Crusher had something but they couldn't violate the distance of the captain without sacrificing the character. Riker probably already had space herpes, so any hookup would have looked like yet another fling. So, Worf and Troi were essentially the only two options, as little sense that made.
rumborak
Geordi and Barclay.
Think about it.
-
Frankly, it was almost the only solution. Picard and Crusher had something but they couldn't violate the distance of the captain without sacrificing the character. Riker was an intergalactic callboy and probably already had space herpes, so any hookup would have looked like yet another fling. So, Worf and Troi were essentially the only two options, as little sense that made.
rumborak
The only options for forcing a romantic development that wasn't needed anyway? Even if there were some critical need to introduce such a thing, it was the worst possible combination. Hell, Worf and Riker would have been more believable. Troi and Geordi would have worked, but would have been fairly contrived and pointless. Still forcing a bad situation just to be doing something, rather than leaving well enough alone is the sign of poor, desperate writing.
-
Oh, I had been meaning to mention Geordi. Sadly Geordi had been relegated to a hapless loser in all matters of love, and apparently they were unwilling to change that.
Barclay, now he could have had an awesomely neurotic relationship with a holographic character.
rumborak
-
They really should have done a "Fuck it all" episode and have Riker and Worf get it on in some steaming hot bear-on-bear action.
Actually, I assume some disturbed fan already wrote some fan fiction regarding that. :lol
-
So are we supposed to assume that Troi and Worf are having violent Klingon sex, or was Worf so whipped that he was content to be a kind, gentle lover. Really, it's just fucking stupid.
-
So are we supposed to assume that Troi and Worf are having violent Klingon sex, or was Worf so whipped that he was content to be a kind, gentle lover. Really, it's just fucking stupid.
You know, I have watched TNG like 4 or 5 times all the way through, not counting the dozens of times for random episodes and I have no recollection of any romance between Worf and Troi.
None what so ever.
-
I always took it that by the end Worf was rather pussy-whipped. Remember the season 1 scene where Worf gets a woman on the bridge courtesy of Q? Or the yelling match he explains to Wesley? Now compare that to the opening scene of the finale, where's he all like "but what about Riker?".
Season 1 Worf would have made an aphrodisiac out of Riker's testicles.
rumborak
-
I always took it that by the end Worf was rather pussy-whipped. Remember the season 1 scene where Worf gets a woman on the bridge courtesy of Q? Or the yelling match he explains to Wesley? Now compare that to the opening scene of the finale, where's he all like "but what about Riker?".
Season 1 Worf would have made an aphrodisiac out of Riker's testicles.
rumborak
The DS9 guys really knew how to write Worf better than TNG.
-
Thing is, TNG already had great Klingon episodes regarding the Empire. Just the interpersonal stuff they couldn't figure out until DS9. The only decent Alexander episode is really the one where Alexander travels back in time to kill himself.
Adami, the romance between Worf and Trio was essentially nonexistent up until the last episodes in season 7. The only inkling towards it was the (really good) time travel episode where Worf is married to her in an alternate universe.
rumborak
-
Adami, the romance between Worf and Trio was essentially nonexistent up until the last episodes in season 7. The only inkling towards it was the (really good) time travel episode where Worf is married to her in an alternate universe.
rumborak
Maybe you didn't hear me. I have seen EVERY episode of TNG at least 4-5 times, many of them up to 20. There is no romance between Worf and Troi that I can recall.
We clear?
-
So, you got the special edition with the Worf-Riker action? I kinda knew you would ;)
rumborak
-
So, you got the special edition with the Worf-Riker action? I kinda knew you would ;)
rumborak
No, I have the one where Riker gives Crusher some head, and she sucks the hell out of him.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-apthhDwJMJ4/T5420Hzqc9I/AAAAAAAABZk/2DjMDIFZXyo/s1600/riker+straw+in+head.JPG)
-
Adami, the romance between Worf and Trio was essentially nonexistent up until the last episodes in season 7. The only inkling towards it was the (really good) time travel episode where Worf is married to her in an alternate universe.
rumborak
Maybe you didn't hear me. I have seen EVERY episode of TNG at least 4-5 times, many of them up to 20. There is no romance between Worf and Troi that I can recall.
We clear?
Yep, having a romance between Troi and Worf is just as likely as Highlander having a sequel...
-
I'm watching a 2011 panel with Brent Spiner. It's amazing how much he hates Star Trek.
-
Two whole pages of Trek discussion while I slept? Damn you, DTF! :lol
I can't be bothered going back and quoting, so I'm just dumping it all together-
@rumby - I agree with you on TOS, however unlike your comparison, TOS does actually have some surprisingly amazing episodes that still hold up well today. City on the Edge of Forever is as good as any later Trek series. I'd say about 1/4 of TOS is great, 1/4 is kinda bad, and 1/2 falls into the formulaic "kind of terrible and camp, but still entertaining as hell" category. I enjoy the bad episodes just as much as the good.
And S3 of Enterprise was genuinely great Trek. S1/2 are ok, but hugely derivative, S4 is contrived fanwank for the most part, but S3 did something different that didn't use old Trek as a crutch, and succeeded. It's the only season of Enterprise that I think is a must watch for any Trek fan.
However, I still think the best of Voyager is miles better. I've been rewatching a lot of random Voyager lately, and from S4 onwards, it is quite a strong show. When it's bad, it's bad, but when it's good, it's still my favourite of all the Trek series. Both Voyager and Enterprise had their fundamental flaws, but Voyager learned to play to its strengths a lot better than Enterprise did. Enterprise never really hit its stride imo, unfortunately. They had an ok run considering though.
I'll also throw in my appreciation for Jeffrey Combs. I first saw him as Shran, and he was one of my favourite characters on Enterprise (although that's no real feat when acting against cardboard cutouts). And then I liked him even more as Weyoun on DS9, which I saw later. I actually got into Transformers: Prime just because he does the voice of one of the main Transformers, and he plays the part very well.
-
I'm watching a 2011 panel with Brent Spiner. It's amazing how much he hates Star Trek.
I haven't seen that. He's not a sci-fi kinda guy, but he certainly seems to appreciate what he was given, despite being somewhat typecast.
I love the videos of him and Stewart heckling each other at the conventions.
-
I'm watching a 2011 panel with Brent Spiner. It's amazing how much he hates Star Trek.
I haven't seen that. He's not a sci-fi kinda guy, but he certainly seems to appreciate what he was given, despite being somewhat typecast.
I love the videos of him and Stewart heckling each other at the conventions.
He's a funny guy, but blatantly thinks VERY low of Star Trek and his work.
"Brent, what was the episode of Star Trek that really tested your acting skills?"
"....THAT show? Nothing. I did nothing, all I had to do was show up......so waking up was the most challenging part of doing it"
That's the nice part. Beyond sci-fi he really thinks of Star Trek as meaningless drivel and believes his acting as Data was completely worthless. Which is odd since he's not exactly know for.....anything else.
-
The only other roles I can think of that Brent Spiner did were sci-fi related. He was the mad scientist dude in "Independence Day", and he was in an episode of the TV show "Warehouse 13" playing a scientist dude. Wow, what incredible range.
It's actually a shame that he thinks so lowly of Star Trek and his work in TNG, because I thought his portrayal of Data was usually very good, sometimes downright brilliant. It takes real acting chops to convey thought without emotion, or emotion which is calculated but not truly felt, or however one might describe Data. And as Lore and Soong, with their inherent similarities but important differences, you could really see his talent.
-
The only other roles I can think of that Brent Spiner did were sci-fi related. He was the mad scientist dude in "Independence Day", and he was in an episode of the TV show "Warehouse 13" playing a scientist dude. Wow, what incredible range.
Hold on a sec, Brent Spiner hasn't been in Warehouse 13... ???
-
Aren't you guys forgetting he was a popular guest character on Night Court?
-
The only other roles I can think of that Brent Spiner did were sci-fi related. He was the mad scientist dude in "Independence Day", and he was in an episode of the TV show "Warehouse 13" playing a scientist dude. Wow, what incredible range.
It's actually a shame that he thinks so lowly of Star Trek and his work in TNG, because I thought his portrayal of Data was usually very good, sometimes downright brilliant. It takes real acting chops to convey thought without emotion, or emotion which is calculated but not truly felt, or however one might describe Data. And as Lore and Soong, with their inherent similarities but important differences, you could really see his talent.
I completely agree. Though he was hilarious in Out to Sea, which he discusses fondly.
He was also the bad guy in Master of Disguise, the ever so brilliant Dana Carvey comedy that you needn't see. He also plays a doctor in nearly every one off appearence in TV shows I have seen. He was indeed amazing as Data, perhaps the 20 hour days jaded him to what he was actually doing. In fact outside of Shatner, Stewart and Nimoy, I haven't seen or heard any other Trek actor describe their time fondly.
-
Thankfully, he's a smart enough guy to recognize that he was given a fantastic opportunity. He had many years of steady, gainful employment. He was able to pursue other projects that did suit his interests. He undoubtedly became fairly wealthy because of TNG. I get that he didn't find it rewarding, but he does appreciate the gig nevertheless.
-
Thankfully, he's a smart enough guy to recognize that he was given a fantastic opportunity. He had many years of steady, gainful employment. He was able to pursue other projects that did suit his interests. He undoubtedly became fairly wealthy because of TNG. I get that he didn't find it rewarding, but he does appreciate the gig nevertheless.
Yea he says that as an employee he was fond of the show, but as an actor he wasn't. It's just sad is all, Data is a beloved character and he thinks of Star Trek essentially as nothing more than children's drivel.
-
The only other roles I can think of that Brent Spiner did were sci-fi related. He was the mad scientist dude in "Independence Day", and he was in an episode of the TV show "Warehouse 13" playing a scientist dude. Wow, what incredible range.
Hold on a sec, Brent Spiner hasn't been in Warehouse 13... ???
Crap, I got my shows mixed up. It was Leverage. Frakes directed, and Armin Shimerman was one of the other guest stars, so that was cool, but that's probably why I was thinking it was sci-fi related.
-
The only other roles I can think of that Brent Spiner did were sci-fi related. He was the mad scientist dude in "Independence Day", and he was in an episode of the TV show "Warehouse 13" playing a scientist dude. Wow, what incredible range.
Hold on a sec, Brent Spiner hasn't been in Warehouse 13... ???
Crap, I got my shows mixed up. It was Leverage. Frakes directed, and Armin Shimerman was one of the other guest stars, so that was cool, but that's probably why I was thinking it was sci-fi related.
Never heard of Leverage, although Warehouse 13 is one of my very favourite shows on TV right now, so I'd remember that. :lol
However, Armin Shimerman was in an episode of Warehouse 13, as was Jeri Ryan (7 of 9), René Auberjonois (Odo) was in a few episodes, and Kate Mulgrew (Janeway) was in a few too.
I love the crossover between a lot of scifi shows, although they may consider it typecasting. No idea.
-
The only other roles I can think of that Brent Spiner did were sci-fi related. He was the mad scientist dude in "Independence Day", and he was in an episode of the TV show "Warehouse 13" playing a scientist dude. Wow, what incredible range.
Hold on a sec, Brent Spiner hasn't been in Warehouse 13... ???
Crap, I got my shows mixed up. It was Leverage. Frakes directed, and Armin Shimerman was one of the other guest stars, so that was cool, but that's probably why I was thinking it was sci-fi related.
Never heard of Leverage, although Warehouse 13 is one of my very favourite shows on TV right now, so I'd remember that. :lol
However, Armin Shimerman was in an episode of Warehouse 13, as was Jeri Ryan (7 of 9), René Auberjonois (Odo) was in a few episodes, and Kate Mulgrew (Janeway) was in a few too.
I love the crossover between a lot of scifi shows, although they may consider it typecasting. No idea.
Wierd. I just saw his name this morning in the opening credits of The Little Mermaid.
I have 3 & 6 yr old girls.
But Ariel is hot.
Ever see her Sea Shell bra?
Looks more like a B Shell.
:neverusethis:
-
The only other roles I can think of that Brent Spiner did were sci-fi related. He was the mad scientist dude in "Independence Day", and he was in an episode of the TV show "Warehouse 13" playing a scientist dude. Wow, what incredible range.
Hold on a sec, Brent Spiner hasn't been in Warehouse 13... ???
Crap, I got my shows mixed up. It was Leverage. Frakes directed, and Armin Shimerman was one of the other guest stars, so that was cool, but that's probably why I was thinking it was sci-fi related.
Never heard of Leverage, although Warehouse 13 is one of my very favourite shows on TV right now, so I'd remember that. :lol
However, Armin Shimerman was in an episode of Warehouse 13, as was Jeri Ryan (7 of 9), René Auberjonois (Odo) was in a few episodes, and Kate Mulgrew (Janeway) was in a few too.
I love the crossover between a lot of scifi shows, although they may consider it typecasting. No idea.
Yeah, Kate plays Pete's mom. We watch Warehouse 13, I've seen every episode. Jeri Ryan has a recurring role on Leverage and was a regular for a while. Leverage is like the American version of the British show "Hustle" if that means anything to you. Basically a con game every week.
-
He was also the bad guy in Master of Disguise, the ever so brilliant Dana Carvey comedy that you needn't see.
Actually, that movie is worth seeing if only for the fact that it used to populate the bottom 10 on IMDB. I've seen it, and it is incredibly bad. Partially due to Spiner's character, whose main schtick is to rip a fart at the end of each scene he appears in.
I'm torn on Brent Spiner. Sure, in terms of acting he got a somewhat sucky role. But he's frankly also a rather one-dimensional actor, he can really only do minor variations of the same character (IMHO). So, even though that's of course not something he would ever think of himself, but I think he actually got pretty lucky portraying a memorable character and being loved for it.
rumborak
-
How is being a hillbilly in Night Court a minor variation relative to Data?
-
How is being a hillbilly in Night Court a minor variation relative to Data?
Its like Keanu Reeves or Denzel Washington. They may play drastically different characters from film to film...but Denzel is ALWAYS Denzel, in EVERY movie.
-
How is being a hillbilly in Night Court a minor variation relative to Data?
You're really stressing this 6 or whatever episodes on Night Court, aren't you?
Brent is a fine actor. Not a great one, and his acting as Data was actually quite brilliant. Playing a robot isn't hard. Playing Data the way he did however is not so eash. And as I said, he was pretty amazing as the cruise ship director in Out to Sea. However 98% of his roles are pretty.....bland acting wise. I assume he does a good amount of stage work to justify considering Data a meaningless aspect of his artistic career.
-
Going back to Crusher episodes, just wrapped up the one where the ship keeps exploding after being rammed by Captain Frazier in the Boseman. Pretty nifty episode, despite being to Crusher-centric. They actually did a good job of coordinating everything around the commercial breaks. They actually used the standard format of the show, a two minute teaser and 5 eight minute chunks, as a plot device.
-
Going back to Crusher episodes, just wrapped up the one where the ship keeps exploding after being rammed by Captain Frazier in the Boseman. Pretty nifty episode, despite being to Crusher-centric. They actually did a good job of coordinating everything around the commercial breaks. They actually used the standard format of the show, a two minute teaser and 5 eight minute chunks, as a plot device.
Captain Crane, thank you very much.
You might like this too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xf6cw7LXXQ
-
How is being a hillbilly in Night Court a minor variation relative to Data?
You're really stressing this 6 or whatever episodes on Night Court, aren't you?
Brent is a fine actor. Not a great one, and his acting as Data was actually quite brilliant. Playing a robot isn't hard. Playing Data the way he did however is not so eash. And as I said, he was pretty amazing as the cruise ship director in Out to Sea. However 98% of his roles are pretty.....bland acting wise. I assume he does a good amount of stage work to justify considering Data a meaningless aspect of his artistic career.
Stressing? I mentioned it once and nobody responded so brought it up once more when I think it fit.
How many episodes isn't important, it's how he played the role. A lot of people are surprised to realize Bob Wheeler was Brent Spiner, which says something on its own. I'm just not sure how Bob Wheeler, Data, or that doctor from Independence Day share much of anything in common in the way he acted them? ...dead pan vs stoic vs eccentric. He might get certain roles because of typecast or people enjoy that aspect of him, but all three of those roles were well regarded.
-
How is being a hillbilly in Night Court a minor variation relative to Data?
You're really stressing this 6 or whatever episodes on Night Court, aren't you?
Brent is a fine actor. Not a great one, and his acting as Data was actually quite brilliant. Playing a robot isn't hard. Playing Data the way he did however is not so eash. And as I said, he was pretty amazing as the cruise ship director in Out to Sea. However 98% of his roles are pretty.....bland acting wise. I assume he does a good amount of stage work to justify considering Data a meaningless aspect of his artistic career.
Stressing? I mentioned it once and nobody responded so brought it up once more when I think it fit.
How many episodes isn't important, it's how he played the role. A lot of people are surprised to realize Bob Wheeler was Brent Spiner, which says something on its own. I'm just not sure how Bob Wheeler, Data, or that doctor from Independence Day share much of anything in common in the way he acted them? ...dead pan vs stoic vs eccentric. He might get certain roles because of typecast or people enjoy that aspect of him, but all three of those roles were well regarded.
No need to argue with me. I agree that Spiner is a fine actor, even though he might consider himself a bit better than he might actually be.
-
Going back to Crusher episodes, just wrapped up the one where the ship keeps exploding after being rammed by Captain Frazier in the Boseman. Pretty nifty episode, despite being to Crusher-centric. They actually did a good job of coordinating everything around the commercial breaks. They actually used the standard format of the show, a two minute teaser and 5 eight minute chunks, as a plot device.
Captain Crane, thank you very much.
:facepalm:
-
I remember that episode and remember liking it pretty well, partly because of the format and how they used it, as you've described. I don't remember it being especially Crusher-centric, though. Data figured out the significance of "3" and how to forward a message to himself via technobabble. I think that was the one where Crusher knocks a glass off her nightstand, though, and in one of the instances, they cut away, but you still hear it crash over the communicator, which was a nice touch.
-
I remember that episode and remember liking it pretty well, partly because of the format and how they used it, as you've described. I don't remember it being especially Crusher-centric, though. Data figured out the significance of "3" and how to forward a message to himself via technobabble. I think that was the one where Crusher knocks a glass off her nightstand, though, and in one of the instances, they cut away, but you still hear it crash over the communicator, which was a nice touch.
I didn't remember it being a Crusher episode either, but it very definitely is. She's the focal point of each occurrence. The rest of the crew becomes a little more involved each time they go through it, but she's still the main character picking up on all of the familiarities. The poker game. Treating Geordi's dizzy spell. Hearing voices. The broken glass. All her.
And the last time through, she was talking to Geordi and Data, and you heard the glass break through their com panel. They asked if everything was alright after hearing it. Yeah, nice touch.
-
Wow, you're right. She was all over that one. I didn't even think about that.
-
I love that episode, one of the really good ones.
Btw, one thing I liked in ENT the other day was when Phlox didn't want to treat a patient against his wishes. When asked by Archer whether he would respect the patient's wish even if it means the death of the patient, Phlox replies "Captain, Hippocrates was not a Denobulan." I really liked that scene.
rumborak
-
Btw, one thing I liked in ENT the other day was when Phlox didn't want to treat a patient against his wishes. When asked by Archer whether he would respect the patient's wish even if it means the death of the patient, Phlox replies "Captain, Hippocrates was not a Denobulan." I really liked that scene.
rumborak
I like that. Particularly in contrast to yesterday's TNG episode where Crusher said she'd put Worf in restraints and keep him locked up for years before letting him seppuku himself after being crippled in a senseless accident; dumb twat.
-
Yeah, I didn't like how Crusher bullied Worf like that. I thought it was stupid. I think it was supposed to set up some kind of thing that built on her objections to that other doctor's experimental procedure which could have (and did) allow Worf to walk again, but I thought her objections were a bit too high and mighty as well. She had that speech about playing with people's lives and stuff, but overall I thought she was off base. Worf was ready to kill himself, and here's a treatment that could save him. She would rather keep him alive against his will, yet deny him the treatment. Seriously Beverly, WTF?
-
Yeah, I always thought the same. They tried to portray Beverly's stance as the right one (at least that's how I took it), but in the end she just came across as incredibly culturally ignorant. In the end the whole episode was really about assisted suicide, and IMHO they came down on the safe, but wrong side on that one. Which is really a bummer, because Roddenberry's vision supposedly was this morally advanced culture. Which would include respecting another culture's desire to end life (prime directive anyone?).
rumborak
-
Looks like there were a string of season 5 episodes where Crusher is supposed to be the voice of outdated morality. Today's episode has her upset about the lack of freedom in a woman specifically bred for a purpose. She really does appear to be intolerant of other people's customs and mores.
In that same episode, after getting hot and bothered making out with Famke Jannsen, Riker excuses himself to the holodeck for a while. It would appear that at least somebody in the 24th century still gets it. :lol
-
So I am watching the 3rd season of Enterprise which is arguably one of the darkest seasons of any Trek show ever. The interesting thing is that they chose THIS season to be the season that gets the more upbeat intro song.
"So I think we should make that uplifting intro song more upbeat, and I think this might be the season to do it....what's this season about?"
"Genocide, murder, psychosis, stress, insanity"
"Yup, perfect throw in the happier intro"
-
I just realized that they used Trip as a kinda McCoy of ENT. Likeable but with shitloads of emotional outbursts. It's really interesting how they slowly morphed the thing into an Archer-T'Pol-Tucker triangle, just like Kirk-Spock-McCoy.
rumborak
-
I just realized that they used Trip as a kinda McCoy of ENT. Likeable but with shitloads of emotional outbursts. It's really interesting how they slowly morphed the thing into an Archer-T'Pol-Tucker triangle, just like Kirk-Spock-McCoy.
rumborak
Slowly? That was their plan from the get-go. They've admitted so. Bakula himself said their original intention was to re-create the Kirk/Spock/McCoy thing but that his crew lacked the chemistry.
-
It's funny. I recently read that's what they were shooting for. In retrospect it's painfully obvious. Normal captain, Vulcan science officer and good ole boy best friend of the captain. What's funny is that they were so terrible at it that nobody ever noticed, despite being such an obvious attempt at it.
And I didn't know they changed theme music. I thought it was that same horrible song for the whole series (save for ItMD, which was a pretty cool intro).
-
Well, at least in the beginning it wasn't that clear I thought. Side characters like Hoshi and Travis had much bigger roles, whereas season 3 is almost exclusively for that triangle.
rumborak
-
It's funny. I recently read that's what they were shooting for. In retrospect it's painfully obvious. Normal captain, Vulcan science officer and good ole boy best friend of the captain. What's funny is that they were so terrible at it that nobody ever noticed, despite being such an obvious attempt at it.
And I didn't know they changed theme music. I thought it was that same horrible song for the whole series (save for ItMD, which was a pretty cool intro).
It's the same song, they just added a double time drum beat behind the whole thing to make it more upbeat.
-
The song was a lost cause really. I'm surprised they even tried.
rumborak
-
The song was a lost cause really. I'm surprised they even tried.
rumborak
I agree. It's also a pretty bad song. Even if they had gone the route of theme song rather than orchestral theme, they could have picked something better and not a 2nd tier attempt for a hit by that chick who that Aerosmith song for Armageddon.
-
The song was a lost cause really. I'm surprised they even tried.
rumborak
I agree. It's also a pretty bad song. Even if they had gone the route of theme song rather than orchestral theme, they could have picked something better and not a 2nd tier attempt for a hit by that chick who that Aerosmith song for Armageddon.
She wrote plenty other songs I'm not happy about either.
-
The song was a lost cause really. I'm surprised they even tried.
rumborak
I agree. It's also a pretty bad song. Even if they had gone the route of theme song rather than orchestral theme, they could have picked something better and not a 2nd tier attempt for a hit by that chick who that Aerosmith song for Armageddon.
She wrote plenty other songs I'm not happy about either.
Any other big ones? Those are the only two that come to mind. Of course I haven't looked her up or anything.
-
Look Away - Chicago. Give me the 70's band any day.
Rhythm of The night -- Debarge (Gives me the creeps)
Time, Love & Tenderness -- Michael Bolton
I could go on. :lol
-
I'm going to say it - I actually like the intro song (S1 and 2, not the 3/4 variant so much). It's cheesy, but it fits the montage well, and ties it much closer to our time, which I think was the point - to show the wonder of exploration and space. Granted, the show didn't live up to that, but I thought the intro worked nicely.
-
To me the intro represented somewhat the fatal flaw of ENT, that it was too American. All ST before had people from all across Earth, whereas almost everybody was from the US in the Enterprise crew. Even the uniforms were clearly made after US uniforms.
And so, the intro drove that point home. Mostly American achievements being shown, with an Americsn-style song behind it.
rumborak
-
I actually feel TOS was much worse for being American-centric. There was one episode where Kirk has a massive raging boner for the American constitution as if it was the galactic constant, and then he went on a big rant about it, then hugged the American flag. Ok, I think I made up that last part, but there was an American flag there for some reason, and I have no idea why this planet even had the constitution, or why none of them questioned that it got there somehow. Kirk just went on a 5 minute lecture about it. The episode was pretty good up until that drivel.
I think all Trek has some American bias, as it to be expected from an American made show. ENT was probably second to TOS for that though, so I guess I can somewhat agree.
They actually called it in one episode of ENT. The one where Tucker and the Brit are stuck on the shuttlepod alone for a few days. The British dude asks why everything is so American focused, and Tucker just says that America did everything and is the greatest.
-
I know exactly the TOS episode you mean :lol
To me TOS is a special case because I can't take it too serious anyway. And it also didn't have the international audience that the later shows had, so for them to please their target audience was fine (I guess).
Overall ENT feels less like the beginning of Starfleet, but more like the next steps of the US space program.
It's a shame really, because they could have had a really interesting home-bound story arc how the different human cultures came together.
rumborak
-
I agree with you. TOS gets a bit of a pass, because or the era and circumstances. ENT did try to have the usual diversity, but it was mostly good ol' fashioned American boys parading around the galaxy, and of course having Starfleet placed right next to a US landmark has never helped. :lol
I think the reason is because they were linking it more to our present day, and also to TOS, which ends up making it more US oriented than the other series.
-
I see what you're saying, but I think they massively overshot that goal. I was just thinking now, I just started watching the first episode of season 4, and it's the first time (I think) where a non-US civilization gets mentioned (of course Nazis no less, probably another TOS homage). Up to that moment it had been San Fran, Detroit, Montana and Florida.
rumborak
-
Don't worry, I'm not saying they succeeded at it, I can just understand how it ended up that way. As a non-US viewer, I've always been aware of the lack of geographical diversity there.
-
Time to throw some positivity in this thread.
I really loved the conflict between Reed and that Major whoever guy in Enterprise. The conflict between the Enterprise security crew and the non starfleet military. Really brilliant stuff that ST could have used in general.
-
Just wrapped up Time's Arrow and that was pretty fucking stupid. I was actually looking forward to it as I had good memories of it. The first part was alright, and the premise was excellent. The second half was just a string of gimmicks, cliche's and Deus ex machina that really wrecked the thing. Highlights being:
The away team magically attaining perfect clothing, including a policeman's uniform, for a trip they didn't know was coming.
Data riding to the rescue with the carriage.
They can't fire normal photon torpedoes for 60 seconds because of plot necessity, but the phase shift modified ones can be fired immediately.
Piccard whipping off his fedora like God damn Indiana Jones.
Piccard having the technical no-how to encode a message into Data's severed and non-functional head.
The conversations with Clemens about how wonderful they all are in the future, with Troi in particular, were all just awful.
Guinan had no qualms about telling Piccard that he had to go on the away mission, but refused to tell Riker how to avoid blowing him to bits.
It just goes on an on. It's like they had professionals write part one, and then had contest winners from some high school come up with the ending. Really unfortunate as it should have been a stellar episode. They put a lot of effort into crafting a great outline. They just should have put as much effort into it's execution.
Strangely, I never noticed that the bellhop was Jack London. Good touch. Also never noticed that Gul Dukat was the French poker player.
-
I don't know, that episode is one of my favorite TNG episodes. Sure there's some snags, but the plot is just awesome. Clemens was a bit too over the top probably, he looked more of a caricature.
rumborak
-
I don't remember all the holes El B pointed out, but I do remember it beings 'meh' overall.
-
Honestly, most time travel episodes are giant plot-holes and terrible ideas waiting to happen.
Aside from Encounter At Farpoint, Time's Arrow is probably my least favorite TNG two-parter. It has some good stuff, but is overall pretty meh.
-
Well so much for positivity.
-
I watched the 3-episode ENT arc about the Augments. Overall pretty good, and I liked how they tied into both the Khan stuff, and the Data allusion at the end. Still not a big fan of Spiner's acting, but I guess you take what you can get :lol
rumborak
-
I hated that episode arc so much. The worst fanwanky force the square peg into the round hole episodes ever. Different makeup. End of story. Explaining it in-universe was one of the worst ideas in all of Trek. The Data thing didn't even make much sense. Why would they need to force in that entire thing at all? He just says at the end he's going to get into making robots, so that is supposed to be a clever explanation for why one of his descendants happens to make a robot like 100 years later? Completely unrelated and stupid.
Sorry, but almost nothing in all of Trek pisses me off more than those episodes. Season 4 is full of that kind of thing, and it just feels like bad fan fic. In a Mirror Darkly is the only one that I liked, and even that is still hugely fanwank. S1 and 2 borrowed from previous series, S3 did something original and cool, then for S4 they just said "fuck it, let's just blatantly cram in as much old Trek as we can."
Sorry, I'll stop now. :lol
-
While I'm nowhere near as venomous about it, I largely agree with Blob. Trying to force in as many later references as possible really reeked of desperation.
-
Hey come on guys, I was trying to inject some positivity here! :lol
rumborak
-
Well Enterprise was probably the wrong approach then...... :lol
Especially as that's probably the only season of any Trek series I actively despise.
-
Hey come on guys, I was trying to inject some positivity here! :lol
rumborak
*computer brain processes sarcasm and laughs out loud*
-
Obviously I haven't seen all episodes yet, but it would have been cool had Enterprise bound in not just TOS stories and characters, but TNG and others too. For example, one of the early Dax symbionts would have been cool to have, if only as a small cameo.
rumborak
-
Obviously I haven't seen all episodes yet, but it would have been cool had Enterprise bound in not just TOS stories and characters, but TNG and others too. For example, one of the early Dax symbionts would have been cool to have, if only as a small cameo.
rumborak
Well they did have the Borg. And yea, an old Dax host would have been very cool. I'm trying to think of other non one off people from TNG, DS9 or Voyager that could have somehow showed up, but am coming up short. Obviously the dominion were around then, but had never been to the Alpha quadrant. However, Sarek should have been alive.
-
Yeah, a young Sarek would have been very cool. Maybe even show how he met his human wife.
Another cool being was always that Kevin dude who killed all the Krishniak. Just playing out the plot would have been an awesome episode.
rumborak
-
One thing I just noticed again is how each of the main races have a specific primary color associated to them. Federation is blue, Klingons red and Romulans green.
rumborak
-
One thing I just noticed again is how each of the main races have a specific primary color associated to them. Federation is blue, Klingons red and Romulans green.
rumborak
I got the Romulan green thing, but............what? Klingons red? Federation blue?
-
The lasers mostly I find. And Klingon bridges are bathed in red a lot I find.
-
The lasers mostly I find. And Klingon bridges are bathed in red a lot I find.
That's true.
-
I think it's more of a tone. Each group definitely has their style. The federation seems bright and sunny; lots of yellows and blues. The Klingons exude Earth-tones and fire. Like journeying to hell. The Romulans are very sterile. Cool blues and greens.
Watched The Inner Light today. It's the second ST episode that I always thought was overrated, but eventually decided otherwise. That's a damn fine piece of work. It's definitely not perfect; having his friends and family show up to explain it to him kind of screwed things up with some plot holes. Nevertheless, the concept was excellent and the execution was still pretty good.
-
Finished Enterprise (Excluding the abortion of a final episode which I will pretend doesn't exist).
You know, it really was a good show. The 1st and 2nd season were a bit...blah at times. The third was amazing start to finish, and 4th was pretty great too. Bakula kind of went over the top too often in the 4th season however.
I really didn't mind the augment story line. Soong's little line about cybernetics was nothing more than a cute wink, no idea why anyone would get so furious over it.The klingon thing wasn't bad.....just wasn't at all necessary. I also don't share blobs sentiments that dealing with the problem is a horrible idea. However I think Worf handled it perfectly in DS9.
All in all, a very good show. I know most of you hate it, but I love it and am better off for that. Now I'm on ToS and it's pretty painful to watch as of now. The stories aren't bad (somewhat) but holy crap is the acting and everything else terrible so far. Only a few episodes in and I know it gets much better, but still.....damn. No concept of consistency, no concept of logic or anything.
-
Finished Enterprise (Excluding the abortion of a final episode which I will pretend doesn't exist).
Not too hard considering the entire episode was a holodeck simulation. Technically we're not seeing any of the real story first hand, so let's just pretend the records from that era are sketchy and wrong. :P
I heard everyone say how bad TATV was, and I thought "meh, fans are nitpicky about everything, I'm sure it's not that bad." Boy, was I wrong. :lol
Everyone said Endgame was terrible too, but I thought it was pretty good. I do agree with every criticism of it to some degree, but I still really liked it.
-
Finished Enterprise (Excluding the abortion of a final episode which I will pretend doesn't exist).
Not too hard considering the entire episode was a holodeck simulation. Technically we're not seeing any of the real story first hand, so let's just pretend the records from that era are sketchy and wrong. :P
I heard everyone say how bad TATV was, and I thought "meh, fans are nitpicky about everything, I'm sure it's not that bad." Boy, was I wrong. :lol
Everyone said Endgame was terrible too, but I thought it was pretty good. I do agree with every criticism of it to some degree, but I still really liked it.
Endgame was fine. TATV was Rick whatever pissing inside the rotted out eye sockets of every fan unfortunate enough to watch the episode.
-
The sad thing is that Terra Prime just before it was great, and would have made a much better ending to the series, and related a lot better to the series as a whole.
-
The sad thing is that Terra Prime just before it was great, and would have made a much better ending to the series, and related a lot better to the series as a whole.
I don't understand. Terra Prime was the ending, and it was a great ending.
-
Oh my bad. You're right. I think I'm getting confused with that time I had bad gas.
-
So I'm watching ToS and I have to ask.................why is everyone always sweating? Did anyone else notice this? They are always sweating.
-
I've never really noticed, or maybe I'm used to it. My guess would be that the lighting had to be brighter in those days for the cameras. All that lighting on a closed set would heat it up a bit.
-
I've never really noticed, or maybe I'm used to it. My guess would be that the lighting had to be brighter in those days for the cameras. All that lighting on a closed set would heat it up a bit.
Well obviously there's a logistical reason. It's just...strange. Watch the first season again (not sure how long it lasts) notice that they're all sweating 24/7.
-
It's Denise Crosby's fault. She oozes sexuality. Move over 7 of 9.
-
It's Denise Crosby's fault. She oozes sexuality. Move over 7 of 9.
It's Tasha Yar's fault that The Original Series featured everyone sweating? That's some time traveling sexiness right there.
-
Oh snap! thought you were talking about TNG. :lol My bad. Blob is rubbing off on me and not like your thinking. I know how your mind works pal. :lol
-
When I see Shatner sweating, I really don't even question it. It just makes sense.
-
Never noticed that before, but I fired up a random first season episode and sure enough they were all sweating. I'd certainly guess stage lighting. I'm sure all those TNG guys had a set that was precisely 20.1 C at all times. Not possible in 1968.
While I enjoyed Inner Light, I did have to suffer through some real shit yesterday. While the concept wasn't bad, Rascals had yet another instance of these people getting their asses thoroughly handed to them by greatly inferior people. Generally I enjoy that, but 6 half-brained Ferengi is really pushing it. Worf was particularly inept. Worse still was Fistful of Datas. I'm not sure why crusher doing Candle-boy is always held up as the epitome of awful trek, when this thing is out there. To their credit, they did manage to throw in a few funny jokes, but overall it was just terrible.
I also never realized what a terrible actor young Alexander is. Christ, that kid's awful. The kid that played young Annikan was Olivier compared to him.
-
You never noticed how awful Alexander is? First of all, he's a kid actor. That should have been your first clue. Secondly, he did suck pretty bad. :lol
-
He never had enough screen time to really force an opinion. He was a featured character in FoD.
And as I pointed out before, they're already playing up the Worf/Troi thing quite a bit. You can tell they're setting the stage for that whole thing pretty early on.
-
There's that one scene with Worf and Troi where she gives him a shoulder massage. It always struck me that a teensy Betazoid woman probably couldn't help a tight Klingon muscle :lol
rumborak
-
Ooh yeah, Fistful of Datas, that's a dumb one.
Inner Light, however, is fantastic. One of my favorite Trek episodes. Picard always seems to get the good ones.
-
The Inner Light is awesome. Great concept, slightly flawed execution, but Picard really sells it. The ending almost breaks the magic spell, but I'm okay with it, I guess.
-
The ending certainly opened up some plot holes. Would have been better to let him die of old age, wake up back on the bridge, and then piece together what the meaning of it all was.
Still, good episode.
-
What plot holes did the ending open up?
Also, about midway through the first season of TOS. Almost all of it so far is pretty terrible. Awful acting, awful writing, awful stories. Not sure why this show gets held to such a totally different standard than any other ST. But whatever.
-
The really good episodes of TOS don't come until at least the second half of season 1. At least wait until you've seen Space Seed and The City on the Edge of Forever before completely writing it off, as I found them to be great episodes, and I mostly think TOS is a bit of a laugh.
-
The really good episodes of TOS don't come until at least the second half of season 1. At least wait until you've seen Space Seed and The City on the Edge of Forever before completely writing it off, as I found them to be great episodes, and I mostly think TOS is a bit of a laugh.
I've seen all of those episodes. I know they're good. I know TOS has some great stuff. But it seems the vast majority is awful, yet it gets a pass for just about everything meanwhile every other ST gets scrutinized to the point of nausea. Some of the TNG episodes lacked internal logic? KILL IT!
90% of TOS episodes lacked any sense of logic? Not important. Bones, Kirk and Spock were cool.
Troi was a worthless character? Damn that show!
Sulu, Chekov, Uhura and everyone other than Kirk, Bones and Spock are worthless characters? Who cares, Kirk, Bones and Spock are cool.
It's just annoying that TOS gets away with just about anything while every other ST show gets ripped apart by a lot of people.
-
The really good episodes of TOS don't come until at least the second half of season 1. At least wait until you've seen Space Seed and The City on the Edge of Forever before completely writing it off, as I found them to be great episodes, and I mostly think TOS is a bit of a laugh.
I've seen all of those episodes. I know they're good. I know TOS has some great stuff. But it seems the vast majority is awful, yet it gets a pass for just about everything meanwhile every other ST gets scrutinized to the point of nausea. Some of the TNG episodes lacked internal logic? KILL IT!
90% of TOS episodes lacked any sense of logic? Not important. Bones, Kirk and Spock were cool.
I agree entirely there. Maybe 1/4 of TOS was great stuff I can enjoy somewhat seriously, then the rest is just campy fun that I enjoy for its hilarity. It doesn't get a free pass from me.
I remember one time on a Star Trek forum, I said that the original crappy colourful painted wooden sets of TOS didn't hold up in "In a Mirror Darkly", and someone else got super angry at me and said they found that comment "offensive". :rollin Seriously?
-
I think I'm going to count maybe 10 episodes of TOS (along with all of the movies) to be cannon and just kind of consider the rest sci-fi experiments.
-
Aw, you mean the American Constitution planet, the Nazi planet, the Roman Jesus planet, the ability to time travel easily by flying past a sun, the death penalty for visiting forbidden planets, and the Abraham Lincoln planet aren't canon?
I ignore most of TOS for canon too. Every time it gets enforced, it just screws up all of the better Trek anyway. They were making it up as they went, sometimes they hit the mark, and sometimes they missed by a wide margin.
-
Aw, you mean the American Constitution planet, the Nazi planet, the Roman Jesus planet, the ability to time travel easily by flying past a sun, the death penalty for visiting forbidden planets, and the Abraham Lincoln planet aren't canon?
I ignore most of TOS for canon too. Every time it gets enforced, it just screws up all of the better Trek anyway. They were making it up as they went, sometimes they hit the mark, and sometimes they missed by a wide margin.
Space Seed obviously gets to be cannon, City on the Edge of Forever as well. I'm terrible with names so I can't remember others at the moment. Oh the Naked Time too, only because it's referenced in TNG, and Sulu is hilarious in it.
I also noticed that (at least as of The Conscience of the King) that when they go to warp...........nothing changes. They don't even seem to go faster. He just sort of says it and they stay the same speed.
Also apparently any federation ship can, within a few days, travel to the edge of the galaxy. You know, the same galaxy where almost EVERY other star trek incident took place.
-
I also noticed that (at least as of The Conscience of the King) that when they go to warp...........nothing changes. They don't even seem to go faster. He just sort of says it and they stay the same speed.
Also apparently any federation ship can, within a few days, travel to the edge of the galaxy. You know, the same galaxy where almost EVERY other star trek incident took place.
It's like that in every episode, unfortunately. They never actually show warp as being any different to impulse (did they call it that in TOS?). That bugged me every time, they'd say "warp 6!" then just slowly drift out of orbit. It wasn't until TMP that warp actually did something visibly different.
They really didn't care about consistency for distance/time in TOS. They just did whatever worked for that single episode. The original Enterprise could travel to the edge of the galaxy in a matter of hours, while Voyager was supposed to take 70 years to get from one quadrant to another.
-
Got to see Shatner yesterday at Phoenix Comicon. TNG Panel today!!!
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/581268_10151756237760247_766613120_n.jpg)
-
If Troi were just worthless then I could see your point, but she's more than that. She's a fucking irritant. When Sulu starts acting like a whiny, histrionic cunt ever episode, your criticism will have merit. Until then he's just a background character.
As for the overall quality of the two shows, it seems to me that the breakdown of poor/good/great episodes by season is about the same. TOS had tons of really rotten episodes; no different than TNG. And if we're going to start comparing the quality of shows, keep in mind that you can only compare the first three seasons of TNG. There was some good work in there, but very little of the great work.
I would suggest that the Abraham Lincoln planet was a cut above the wild West episode of TNG I just watched. At least they bothered explaining that. For every time TOS gets stuck on some stupid Earth throw back planet, there's a TNG episode where they're stuck in a malfunctioning holodeck version of the same place.
As for canon, what reason did they have to give a shit? They had no money and no expectation that there would be another show beyond the one they were currently filming. Nor did they have a huge fan base. TOS was incidentally produced for people who weren't even around yet. I find it harder to overlook plot holes for a series that was designed from the get-go to be the start of a huge franchise with a preexisting fan base of anal-retentive geek-boys.
As for Inner Light plot holes, they were all minor; nothing to really hurt an otherwise fine episode. There were some real questions, though. Did the people he spent a lifetime with know all along, and therefore just acting? Were they even real at all? How did they know it had been/would be 1000 years? Was the entire thing pre-scripted, or was he allowed free will? It would appear the latter considering the development of his kids, the scientist and the flute player. What if whoever they picked hated music? Like I say, nothing hugely important, but the ending with everybody he knows just popping up and telling him the truth was simplistic and caused a lot of this. What I suggested would have worked quite a lot better. It wouldn't have opened up so many questions and actually would have been much better from the dramatic POV. A neat and tidy ending wasn't necessary here.
-
I would suggest that the Abraham Lincoln planet was a cut above the wild West episode of TNG I just watched. At least they bothered explaining that. For every time TOS gets stuck on some stupid Earth throw back planet, there's a TNG episode where they're stuck in a malfunctioning holodeck version of the same place.
But a holodeck makes sense. There is zero sense in some random planet nobody has ever visited before being an exact copy of Earth's history, other than them needing to raid the costume department to save money that week. :lol And it never got explained reasonably. A holodeck doesn't need explanation. Sure, the idea of the holodeck malfunctioning 80% of the time is undoubtedly contrived, but at least it could be explained. That's the big difference.
How did they explain a planet with the US constitution? They didn't. How did they explain a Roman planet with a concept of Jesus? That makes zero sense (nor did the smug BS at the end with the whole crew getting super excited that the good old fashioned US values of Christianity were about to conquer the planet).
How did they explain a Nazi planet? Some crap that made zero sense. Every episode of TOS was a giant plothole.
TOS was more of a parallel universe travel show, rather than a space travel show. They didn't explain it most of the time, and when they did explain it, it only works as an idea of a parallel universe, not in any real sense of space and time. TOS is a fun show, but even factoring in everything else, I don't know how it can possibly be seriously compared to anything that came after it.
-
You're one for three there. The Roman and Nazi planet both had Earth captains imposing historic values on them. Same thing with the gangster planet. If you want to take it a bit further, they bump into a Greek god who instilled a common mythology in Earth. No reason that couldn't have been happening elsewhere. Actually, I believe TNG hit on that concept a few times. Furthermore, the belief in some sort of God seems to be commonplace. Once you establish that everybody has some sort of divine beliefs, there's no reason why similarities can't develop from that point.
For that matter, how likely is it that planets they'd visit would have humans on it at all. I'm not talking about the twat-faced humanoids, but real people. Those guys who sadly didn't get to execute Wesley were idealized humans. You saw a lot of that, generally in weeks where their makeup budget was being saved up for the big two-parter in the middle of the season.
I'm not pointing these out to bag on TNG. My opinion of it has actually improved somewhat. I'm just pointing out that many of the criticisms apply to both, and IMO, TOS actually had an excuse for it that TNG was lacking.
-
I'm only counting internal explanations, not the fact it's an old show that they didn't think anyone would care about in 40 years. If the show has plotholes, it has plotholes. When an entire franchise is built upon a series, I won't give it any leeway. It has far too much to answer for in later series.
In the Roman episode, the Starfleet captain didn't bring the Roman influence, they already existed that way with "Roman values", and I'm pretty sure the Jesus guys existed long before they arrived too.
You've got me on the Nazi episode though. I just skimmed it, and they even pointed out there the fact it was impossible it naturally evolved like that. The thing that happens in all these TOS episodes is that they usually only explain these things at the end of the episode as a quick throwaway thing to try and get away with it, so I forget them a lot of the time. :lol
In the case of the gangster planet, and the nazi planet, it is still a ludicrous excuse that one person or book comes along, and an entire planet just 100% embraces it with not the slightest deviation.
All they had on the gangster planet was ONE book. And from that, they had the speech patterns, the clothes, CARS, GUNS, the architecture. There's no denying it's a lazy excuse to go cheap on props and costumes. That kind of transparency really kills those episodes for me for anything but outright humour value.
Off the top of my head, aside from one episode I can think of (the um, old hotel thingy? I hope you know what one I mean :lol ), I don't recall TNG having such blatantly poor explanations for other worlds, or such obvious carbon copies of Earth week after week.
-
All they had on the gangster planet was ONE book. And from that, they had the speech patterns, the clothes, CARS, GUNS, the architecture. There's no denying it's a lazy excuse to go cheap on props and costumes.
I wouldn't say it was a lazy excuse. They had a terrible budget and were forced to go with cheaper avenues. They had to cut all sorts of corners just to keep the show afloat as long as they did. Hell, even the switches on the Enterprise consoles are jelly beans and bottlecaps.
If anything, I'd say they did a hell of a job with the limited means they had.
-
I'm only counting internal explanations, not the fact it's an old show that they didn't think anyone would care about in 40 years. If the show has plotholes, it has plotholes. When an entire franchise is built upon a series, I won't give it any leeway. It has far too much to answer for in later series.
Fine. Then your problem should be with Roddenberry's silly ass predicating his new franchise on something he didn't take seriously to begin with. TNG was intended to be a new franchise. TOS was supposed to be non-serialized sci-fi.
And TNG didn't need poor explanations for such blatant period pieces because they had the holodeck and Q to provide any excuses they need. They both did the exact same thing, TNG just invented a common explanation for it.
-
How can you say they both did the same thing (not that I agree) but then give one a pass and criticize the other non stop?
Also, I know TOS was never intended to be a franchise and stuff. I don't hold it responsible with inconsistencies with other Star Trek's. I hold it to be responsible for consistency within itself. And it rarely ever provided that.
-
I'm only counting internal explanations, not the fact it's an old show that they didn't think anyone would care about in 40 years. If the show has plotholes, it has plotholes. When an entire franchise is built upon a series, I won't give it any leeway. It has far too much to answer for in later series.
Fine. Then your problem should be with Roddenberry's silly ass predicating his new franchise on something he didn't take seriously to begin with. TNG was intended to be a new franchise. TOS was supposed to be non-serialized sci-fi.
And TNG didn't need poor explanations for such blatant period pieces because they had the holodeck and Q to provide any excuses they need. They both did the exact same thing, TNG just invented a common explanation for it.
That's not the same thing though. It's not just the fact they both had period pieces, it's that when you build an entire episode upon a premise that doesn't work, that affects the entire episode and story.
I'm pretty sure the percentage of times that TOS did period episodes through time travel or planets identical to Earth was a lot higher than TNG anyway. TOS relied on it far too heavily, and it was very noticeable. Later Trek series also used time travel as an excuse to get away with present day stuff, but they just did it a lot better.
Also, I know TOS was never intended to be a franchise and stuff. I don't hold it responsible with inconsistencies with other Star Trek's. I hold it to be responsible for consistency within itself. And it rarely ever provided that.
This, although I still hold it responsible for inconsistencies with other Trek.
-
All they had on the gangster planet was ONE book. And from that, they had the speech patterns, the clothes, CARS, GUNS, the architecture. There's no denying it's a lazy excuse to go cheap on props and costumes.
I wouldn't say it was a lazy excuse. They had a terrible budget and were forced to go with cheaper avenues. They had to cut all sorts of corners just to keep the show afloat as long as they did. Hell, even the switches on the Enterprise consoles are jelly beans and bottlecaps.
If anything, I'd say they did a hell of a job with the limited means they had.
I don't hold the show responsible for it's budget. Sweaters for uniforms? I'm fine with that. Virtually no props? I'm fine with that. Bad special effects? Fine with it.
However, bad stories? Budget isn't an excuse. Bad acting? Budget isn't an excuse. Bad directing/writing? Budget isn't an excuse. The fact that each episode only tries to make sense within itself with no concern for other episodes? Not a budget issue.
-
How can you say they both did the same thing (not that I agree) but then give one a pass and criticize the other non stop?
First off, I don't criticize TNG non stop. In fact, as I keep telling you people, my opinion of it has improved a fair amount since I've been rewatching it. When I see very good episodes, I come here to discuss them. I don't come here to complain about the terrible ones unless they really outdo themselves; like FOD.
Secondly, I could do that because, despite sharing some of the same issues with nonsensical stories, TOS had interpersonal character development that TNG went far out of their way to avoid. While I won't argue that TOS had some pretty crappy story concepts, TNG had some pretty crappy characters. I guess it might come down to whether or not you'd prefer to see generic characters that you can't relate to in a good story, or interesting characters muddling their way through crappy stories. At least TOS had the occasional great story. TNG never had a better crew.
-
What development did TOS really have? Bones, Kirk and Spock argued a lot, but that was about it. Yes, their chemistry was pretty god damn amazing, but did it actually develop in the television show? Is Spock too different in the last episode than he is in the first? Bones started off as a good ol' boy who didn't care much for logic, he ended the show as a good ol' boy who didn't care much for logic. Kirk started off as ladies man who bent the rules to serve his need. He ended the show as a ladies man who bent the rules to serve his needs. I'm not sure what development actually took place. The movies, sure that's different, but the show?
Also TNG had a great deal of development for characters like Data, Worf, Picard, etc. You might personally dislike most TNG characters, but some of them had some real development. Granted none of these shows had the character development of DS9.
-
I don't recall any character development in TOS. It only had 3 main characters, and they all remained identical throughout the series. And two of them bugged me endlessly with their narrow minded '60s values (although I like them for the humour value anyway).
TNG had a wider range of characters getting screen time and had a lot of development. Troi was mildly annoying, and Wesley was just a completely shit in every way (and they eventually got rid of him), but aside from that, I don't see any real problem with the crew at all.
-
What development did TOS really have? Bones, Kirk and Spock argued a lot, but that was about it. Yes, their chemistry was pretty god damn amazing, but did it actually develop in the television show? Is Spock too different in the last episode than he is in the first? Bones started off as a good ol' boy who didn't care much for logic, he ended the show as a good ol' boy who didn't care much for logic. Kirk started off as ladies man who bent the rules to serve his need. He ended the show as a ladies man who bent the rules to serve his needs. I'm not sure what development actually took place. The movies, sure that's different, but the show?
Also TNG had a great deal of development for characters like Data, Worf, Picard, etc. You might personally dislike most TNG characters, but some of them had some real development. Granted none of these shows had the character development of DS9.
I agree with all of that. It was chemistry that I was looking for in TOS, rather than development. And you're correct about the TNG characters developing. However, they still never became very interesting, and in some cases became worse. Data and Picard were both very good characters, and actually had some good chemistry between them. The rest sucked at the beginning, and while they did change, still sucked by the end of it.
And if you really want to get down to it, when the show ended Geordi was still blind and couldn't get laid. Troi was still a whiny cunt. Worf was still a pussy (though definitely more interesting). Riker was still an unambitious womanizer. While their characters were flushed out a bit, their key attributes never really changed.
-
So outside of some bad characters, your main argument can be boiled down to that no other ST had the same dynamics that kirk, spock and bones had?
I mean, you do indeed have a point. They had gold, and no one else could quite catch that. However it's a shame since the shows offer SO much more and varied things that it'd be a shame to see it mostly as a lack of one thing.
-
I'd argue that the O'Brien and Bashir dynamic was much, much better handled than the McCoy, Spock and Kirk dynamic. Then again, I think the latter only really works all that well in the movies and not in the series.
-
O'Brien and Bashir were probably one of the best if the not the best relationship in Star Trek, everything worked.
And McCoy and Spock were good in the show too, even in the last episode I watched.
(as they're all about to die)
Spock: It would seem that I was incorrect
McCoy: Well at least I lived long enough to hear that
-
So outside of some bad characters, your main argument can be boiled down to that no other ST had the same dynamics that kirk, spock and bones had?
I mean, you do indeed have a point. They had gold, and no one else could quite catch that. However it's a shame since the shows offer SO much more and varied things that it'd be a shame to see it mostly as a lack of one thing.
Not entirely. My point is that they all had some shitty stories. Some shitty plot holes. Some shitty acting. People act as if 80% of TOS was shit and 80% of TNG was awesome. I think the episode quality ratio of both is about equal. In light of that, I think, as do you apparently, that the K/S/M dynamic adds a great deal to TOS which none of the other shows had. Comparing a crappy TOS episode with a crappy TNG episode, I give the edge to TOS for that reason. To me, it's more important than modern special effects and stories that fit into a nice, tidy dogma.
There's also a very different atmosphere at work between the two. I'm growing more and more contemptuous of Roddenberry's view of the TNG era. They're all just so damn wonderful all the time. It's not as interesting or as entertaining as TOS, where they have a much more wild-West mentality. They had problems, they had flaws, and there was always something that was looking to kill them. TNG focused more on interpersonal relationships with people I just don't care for. His view of the future was so enlightened that they really bore no commonality with us.
The issue I was referring to about the holodecks being so squeaky clean is a good example of that. Quark rent's his Vulvan Love Slave shack by the hour for people who get it. These federation people recreate green pastures so they can read Keats and bask in their own smugness. These are just not the sort of people I want to have anything to do with.
-
I just don't see how you can say TOS and TNG had the same good/bad ratio, unless you impose the artificial constraint to only consider the first three TNG seasons.
Btw, what was that supposed plot hole in The Inner Light? The resurrection of dead characters at the end? Hardly. It emphasized what the culture viewed as a most important feature: the interpersonal bonds.
Without it the episode would have just ended with a rocket launch.
IMHO The Inner Light is one of Star Trek's finest.
rumborak
-
Obviously Bart is a bit bias against the very nature of TNG and others, so his opinion on the matter is understandable from that perspective. However, to satisfy my own curiosity I am going to look through the episodes of TOS and TNG (the first 3 seasons) and find out the percentage of what I consider to be good to what I consider to be bad.
-
I always considered early TNG at its worst when they were just reshooting old TOS episodes, e g. The Naked Now.
rumborak
-
ST TOS good episodes got 56% of the total episodes..........and that was me being very generous.
ST TNG good episodes got a 86% of the total episodes.
Granted I don't hate much of it by default. I don't care if they get along. I don't mind the holodeck breaking from time to time. I don't hate every character aside of Picard and Data. I don't hate Q and so forth. So I have a feeling Barts numbers will be very different.
-
Watching These Are The Voyages right now (I had watched it before). One thing I noticed, other than that Riker and Troi look as if they partied for 5 days, is that apparently they didn't have the original TNG set anymore. looks close but not the real thing.
rumborak
-
Watching These Are The Voyages right now (I had watched it before). One thing I noticed, other than that Riker and Troi look as if they partied for 5 days, is that apparently they didn't have the original TNG set anymore. looks close but not the real thing.
rumborak
Not familiar with that episode. Enterprise ends with Terra Prime.
Got it?
-
I just don't see how you can say TOS and TNG had the same good/bad ratio, unless you impose the artificial constraint to only consider the first three TNG seasons.
Btw, what was that supposed plot hole in The Inner Light? The resurrection of dead characters at the end? Hardly. It emphasized what the culture viewed as a most important feature: the interpersonal bonds.
Without it the episode would have just ended with a rocket launch.
IMHO The Inner Light is one of Star Trek's finest.
rumborak
It's perfectly reasonable to only compare TNG's first three seasons. Everybody would agree that the show was better after it got it's traction. It's also entirely possible that if the 1960's era Roddenberry thought he'd get an automatic 6-8 year run, like the 80's version, there might have been significant development with the characters. He certainly had no qualms about growing them a great deal with the first few movies. Maybe I'll tally up the poor, average, great episodes of both shows later. I think most of both series were mediocre. Some dogs and some great ones mixed in.
I hit on the problem with Inner Light a couple of times in the last two pages. I still think it was a great episode. I just think they tacked on the neat and tidy ending when it wasn't necessary. Picard could have died of old age shortly after the rocket launch surrounded by his family, woken up on the bridge, and then pieced everything together. Maybe there's a helpful plaque in the probe that says "Historical Marker: On this date in 2164. . ." Would have been more dramatic and wouldn't have raised questions that didn't need raising.
-
Watching These Are The Voyages right now (I had watched it before). One thing I noticed, other than that Riker and Troi look as if they partied for 5 days, is that apparently they didn't have the original TNG set anymore. looks close but not the real thing.
rumborak
Not familiar with that episode. Enterprise ends with Terra Prime.
Got it?
:lol
But damn seriously, what were they thinking. Trip's death is so contrived.
rumborak
-
As Rumbo pointed out, TNG at its worst was essentially TOS take 2.
Also it at least attempted to preserve consistency and logic, while TOS essentially said screw it.
Time warp? Shields referred to as Screens? Few days journey to the edge of the Galaxy and back? Warp like...14 or whatever? Phasers suddenly being the same as Torpedo's? Time Travel whenever they felt like it? James R. Kirk?
-
Sure it did. All available at memory-alpha.
First off, shields are screens, and the terms are interchangeable. It's even in the freaking definition. "Deflector shields or screens, generally referred to simply as shields, were a type of force field that surrounds a starship, space station, or planet to protect against enemy attacks or natural hazards." I'm betting you heard Picard and Riker call them screens at some point or another.
Picard referred to warp speed breakaway himself. Just because they didn't do it in an episode doesn't mean they don't recognize it as legitimate in canon.
Warp speed is made up. Therefore, it's technically TNG that fucked up the canon with that. They opted to blow off established canon because warp 10 maximum sounded cooler than warp 17.9. They explained this away by recalibrating the scale. Their decision, not TOS's.
The galaxy is very wide, flat at the edges and bulbous in the middle. Nobody ever said they were exiting the edges. And in another instance of latter programming blowing off inconvenient canon, Voyager was fairly nonsensical in relation to other established galactic dimensions. Fifty thousand light years would have still been within the Alpha quadrant, according to their own charts.
The phasers and torpedoes thing is valid. Chalk that one up to Desilu for being tight. You should throw in Romulans using Klingon ships while you're at it.
And this is me being through with being a Star Trek nerd. I feel like Comic Book Guy, and don't much care for it. We prefer different era's, most likely based on what we grew up watching. That's that.
-
Actually (with regard with maximum warp) TOS already declared in one episode that warp 8 was pushing their engines to the max.
And the whole "I assume Picard did it too" doesn't hold water. I never heard him do it. But that doesn't matter much.
They reached the edge of the galaxy, they said so themselves. Not sure how else to interpret it.
EDIT: With your last point, I agree. I've said something similar a few times. Yet I'm pretty your repressed man crush on me keeps you coming back. And I can't blame you. When I look in the mirror sometimes I argue Star Trek with myself.
-
Which edge? The one at the top of the bulbous part, or the far edge of the disk?
As for warp speed, 1701D had more than their fair shares of pushing things passed the safe engine limit. Just like in TOS, it was always somebody onboard making it happen. Weirdo traveller that's hot for Wesley or Andromedans trying to get home. That's a constant in any show. Assigning it the arbitrary number is TNG's fault. I don't think you can fault TOS for blowing off canon because TNG changes it 30 years later.
-
Picture from TNG panel!
(https://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/581092_10151761356050247_831975246_24210186_1550183634_n.jpg)
-
I saw the big cast reunion one. It was really great (at least on youtube) to see them all together again. They really seem to like one another.
But Brent Spiner's intense dislike of Star Trek is still funny.
"So Brent, do you think we need a reboot of ST TNG?"
"It depends who you by we..............WE (pointing at himself) don't!.......they (points at audience) might"
-
Watching the episode where Kirk is tried for the death of a crewman (Because the other dozens of death weren't important?)
Spock just referred to himself as, and I quote "Vulcanian".
-
While discussing TNG with my brother over a couple of bowls, I figured out the source of my objection to those guys and Roddenberry's vision of the future. The fundamental problem is that they've all evolved past any interest in vice. This creates two problems. One, it makes them inherently uninteresting, particularly to a person such as myself who considers the ability to responsibly (and occasionally recklessly) engage in vice to be a healthy, redeeming quality. I don't expect them to be hedonists, the TOS guys certainly weren't, but at least some healthy interest in having a good time, which they seem to equate almost entirely to exploration. The other problem with them is that they're condescending assholes about it. They're very clear that they're better than we are and we all suck. I find that rather insulting.
They play poker with chips even though they have no concept of money. No risk, no reward. They drink whiskey and beer with no alcohol. If these guys are so advanced, then why didn't they just find a way to mitigate the problematic effects and let people catch the occasional buzz to unwind? The only time they really have any interest in getting laid for the sake of just getting laid is when they're under the "deleterious effects" of something that was completely beyond their control. Actually, Riker seems to be the one guy with a healthy interest in the ladies, which suddenly gives me a reason to like him. Even still, he's a little too virtuous about it. Ever see any fat people in the federation? With the exception of pride, do you ever see any of the 7 vices portrayed by somebody here without him being characterized as a crazy person that has to be dealt with immediately?
Really, these people are no longer human.
Coincidentally, I've just realized why Andy is so fond of the Star Trek universe. They're exactly what he strives to be.
-
I get your objections, they make total sense. I guess we'll agree to disagree (again).
I still really think you should watch Battlestar Galactica (the remake). They drink, they smoke, they do drugs, they lie, they cheat, they steal. There are mutinies, rebellions, suicide bombings, coupes, executions, genocide etc. You'll love it.
Plus it's the greatest Sci-Fi show in history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvYVR6XXsHA
-
Not looking to pick a fight with you, but I am curious which part of that you disagree with. That they're uninterested in vice, that they're condescending about it, or that vice is an important quality that they suffer for lacking?
And BS is high on my list of things to get into.
-
Not looking to pick a fight with you, but I am curious which part of that you disagree with. That they're uninterested in vice, that they're condescending about it, or that vice is an important quality that they suffer for lacking?
And BS is high on my list of things to get into.
I don't need my tv show people to be the kind of person I am or people I see around me. I personally don't drink, don't smoke, don't gamble, don't sleep around (well, in theory), and have a high standard of morality and ethics. So I am fine with TNG people being the way they are. But you and I are very different people. I see a culture that has evolved beyond those things and I look at it as something positive and so forth. You see it differently.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right or that I'm wrong and you're right. Although I'm right.
I'm just saying your vision of the future differs from mine. It feels weird typing it since you already associated people who like it with Andy (which was a low blow dude). And they are a little condescending of it. But it doesn't bother me since I'm not the kind of person to whom they are being condescending.
-
As a future shrink, don't you see some benefit to the id, which they seem to be completely lacking?
-
As a future shrink, don't you see some benefit to the id, which they seem to be completely lacking?
lol I'm not looking at it as a future therapist.
-
Yeah EB, while your criticisms are completely justified, I agree with Adami that however there *was* at least a vision. Most modern SciFi is just the usual vice&crime that might as well play in Brooklyn. Roddenberry envisioned a society where we had moved past the things that so routinely destroy us. His execution might have been unbelievable and clumsy, but the idea of it is what draws TNG fans to it.
Besides, TNG wasn't always as squeaky clean as you make it out to be. Chain of Command being a perfect example.
rumborak
-
Coincidentally, watched the first half of CoC earlier today. Second half coming up during dinner. I was thinking about it while it was on, and Captain Jellico is actually somebody I'm liking a great deal in the Star Trek universe. He actually acts like a real individual, and not an idealistic avatar. Ironically, they intended for that very quality to make him the bad guy.
As for Roddenberry's vision, my opinion is that it's boring, unrealistic, and condescending. I understand that the guy wanted to portray the future as joyful and enlightened, and that's a fine vision to promote, I'm real cool with that, but he could have done that while still keeping some aspect of humanity.
Interestingly, their need to constantly be exploring is a direct result of that. They have nothing whatsoever to do otherwise. They're out roaming the galaxy looking for something to give them purpose because they've eliminated everything else there is to live for. To put it in their terms, they've won the game (because of course, we're all losers). They have to find something else to play for, which they can't find amongst themselves.
-
Damn dude, release your anger!! :lol
rumborak
-
Not to get into the whole 'the future is full of boring bore bores' but CoC Part 2 is one of the best TNG episodes ever. David Warner is awesome as the Cardassian Gul.
-
Looking through some of the listings from the It's A Wrap auction. It's amazing how cheap a lot of the props are, and you just don't notice. Anytime you see yellow shirts wandering around that don't have any lines, they're carrying these nerf phasers. Like they couldn't have just made a batch of 50 real ones early on? :lol
(https://startrekpropcollector.com/trekauctions/imgsrv.pl?893b4bd125889adf4fefef9469b85e4d)
-
Jeez, that thing looks like a fricking dildo :lol
rumborak
-
Not in their century! :lol
The auction listings are pretty interesting. Those nerf phasers go for about $350. Authentic ones go for about a grand. A lot of Klingon heads got sold, about a grand each. Plenty of generic costumes go for about the same, and actual uniforms by central characters fetch closer to 2k. I haven't seen one yet, but I'm guessing if any of the 7/9 catsuits were auctioned, those fetched some serious coin; pervy-ass Star Trek geeks.
-
Speaking of squeaky clean, I loved the ENT scene where Phlox goes into this rant about the ethics if euthanizing a patient, and while he's talking the Klingon next to him just pulls a disruptor and blasts the guy with the words "Proceed." :lol
rumborak
-
Speaking of squeaky clean, I loved the ENT scene where Phlox goes into this rant about the ethics if euthanizing a patient, and while he's talking the Klingon next to him just pulls a disruptor and blasts the guy with the words "Proceed." :lol
rumborak
Enterprise definitely said "to hell" with the altruistic version of humanity. In fact I consider Enterprise to be responsible for the darkest moment in ST history.
-
Not to get into the whole 'the future is full of boring bore bores' but CoC Part 2 is one of the best TNG episodes ever. David Warner is awesome as the Cardassian Gul.
Agreed. The masterful interplay between Stewart and Warner in that episode is some of the best acting in the whole history of ST. :metal
-
Speaking of squeaky clean, I loved the ENT scene where Phlox goes into this rant about the ethics if euthanizing a patient, and while he's talking the Klingon next to him just pulls a disruptor and blasts the guy with the words "Proceed." :lol
rumborak
Enterprise definitely said "to hell" with the altruistic version of humanity. In fact I consider Enterprise to be responsible for the darkest moment in ST history.
Sure, since it predated TOS. Roddenberry clearly had a different idea about mankind early on; enlightened but imperfect. It was sometime between TOS and TNG that everybody lost their balls.
I did like the fact that Riker enjoyed immensely making Jellico have to ask for his help. I suspect that probably qualifies as one of the deadly sins, although pride is obviously the one they're not lacking anyway. And I can't help but notice that it only works because they made Jellico the bad guy by actually making him human.
-
Keep in mind they're not the general populace here. They're basically the best military people in Starfleet. It would be stupid and unrealistic if they were all terrible people. And why should they be? I don't get it.
Personally I get really annoyed with how inept Kirk and McCoy were a lot of the time. In reality they destroyed almost every single civilization they came across with their narrow minded and impulsive behaviour.
Bring on the good people of TNG anyday, thank you very much. It's not the 1960s any more. You don't like them. We get the point already.
-
I don't expect them to be bad people. Quite the contrary in fact. I'd just like them to be more interesting than Ned Flanders on Thorazine.
And don't automatically assume that I'm only here to bag on them. My last couple of posts were actually me pointing out a couple of likeable qualities I've noticed with Riker, who before was one of the very worst of those lifeless people.
-
Riker? I actually consider him one of the least lifeless people on the show for the most part.
TNG did have a couple of crap characters that I can see how you would think that. Crusher was basically nothing more than filling a role, and Troi was annoying most of the time (does anyone doubt that one? :lol), but overall I am not seeing that what you're saying is a fair generalization of the characters. I think you're just being way too hard on TNG.
Just because they were largely good people doesn't mean they were boring.
-
You're throwing around good and bad when describing these people. That's not really what I'm looking for. A person can be good and still enjoy getting laid, drinking scotch or knocking somebody senseless because they're an asshole.
Remember how cool it was when Cisco beat the living shit out of Garak in In the Pale Moonlight? Everybody loves that. Picard never would have done it. Riker probably would have. I agree that he's by and large a pretty lifeless guy, but he's probably the most likely to break of that from time to time.
-
So I'm watching the episode The Doomsday Machine, there's that scene with Decker (the crazy guy from the other ship) fights the starfleet guy who was assigned to bring him to sickbay. And I noticed that in almost any ST episode I have seen (including TNG, Voyager, DS9 etc) this was the only one I can remember where the unnamed starfleet guy actually put up a hell of a fight. He lost, but he didn't just get knocked out like everyone else does. He must have given a good 20 second fight. Nice. Wish more of those security people knew how to do their jobs somewhat.
-
:lol Good point! Yeah, it was pretty lame how the security guys generally got owned pretty easily. Must be the red shirts.
-
:lol Good point! Yeah, it was pretty lame how the security guys generally got owned pretty easily. Must be the red shirts.
One of the reasons I liked the MACOs in Enterprise, they actually knew what they were doing.
I know Roddenberry originally wanted TOS to have Starfleet Marines, which never materialized, and I wish more of the shows had that element. It was essentially a bunch of scientists with really awesome guns when sometimes soldiers were necessary.
-
I recall him putting up a good fight, but not that it was particularly uncommon. Seems to be strictly a matter of what the plot calls for. Anytime the main characters have to fight they're quite good at it. Even Uhura and McCoy beat the hell out of people.
I've covered probably 8 episodes of TNG at work the last two days, and one of them had Picard doing the Vulcan nerve pinch on somebody. Can't say that I approve of that. Data? Fine. Seven of Nine? Fine. But Picard? Don't like it.
-
I recall him putting up a good fight, but not that it was particularly uncommon. Seems to be strictly a matter of what the plot calls for. Anytime the main characters have to fight they're quite good at it. Even Uhura and McCoy beat the hell out of people.
I've covered probably 8 episodes of TNG at work the last two days, and one of them had Picard doing the Vulcan nerve pinch on somebody. Can't say that I approve of that. Data? Fine. Seven of Nine? Fine. But Picard? Don't like it.
I meant more the unnamed security guys. Obviously main characters do what they need to do. But when's the last time a random "red shirt" actually defended himself for a good amount of time? On every ST show I've seen they just kinda get knocked out quickly.
And I have no problem with Picard doing the pinch. It never said you needed super human strength to do it. You just needed to know how.
-
Like McCoy possessing all of Spock's marbles know-how? I wouldn't have had any problem with it either except that they'd kind of established that humans couldn't do it. I like Picard and I think he's a good character, but it seems like they were kind of set on making him somewhat Godlike at times, and that was one of those times.
-
When did they establish that humans lack the ability to do the nerve pinch?
And how the hell does John Luck Pickerd doing the nerve pinch make him godlike?
Spock once mind melded with a computer and a rock. That's fine? But Picard doing a technique that I find no reason for him not to do is pushing the limits?
-
Good discussion, and totally agree. But, it wasn't just a problem of the redshirts, but really anybody who got a certain reputation from the onset (redshirts =security, Worf =strength) where they never actually spent any screen time showing them to their strength, but instead only showed how they got defeated in it.
rumborak
-
Also keep in mind that Picard melded with Sarek.
Can't recall which happened first however. Also, both Archer and Khan used the nerve pinch as well, not to mention Odo and the holographic doctor.
-
Simon Pegg says new villain is not Khan (https://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/2012/05/simon-pegg-slams-rumors-villain-star-trek-sequel-khan-s-myth)
-
Simon Pegg says new villain is not Khan (https://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/2012/05/simon-pegg-slams-rumors-villain-star-trek-sequel-khan-s-myth)
Good.
-
Simon Pegg says new villain is not Khan (https://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/2012/05/simon-pegg-slams-rumors-villain-star-trek-sequel-khan-s-myth)
Good.
My thoughts exactly.
-
Simon Pegg says new villain is not Khan (https://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/2012/05/simon-pegg-slams-rumors-villain-star-trek-sequel-khan-s-myth)
Good.
Thank god, although I already basically knew it. It's just nice to have it confirmed.
Not only can you not touch Ricardo Montalban (EVER), but it would be backwards retread that would defeat the purpose of a reboot, and get everyone off side.
-
How would it defeat the purpose of a reboot? I mean, the universe still has the same races/people in it. Khan is still alive out there somewhere on the Botany Bay in the reboot universe too.
I mean, I'm thrilled they're leaving it be, but I don't see how it defeats the purpose of a reboot. Unless you mean there's no point of a reboot if you're just going to re-hash old characters. In which case, well I wouldn't care but I'd be fine without any of them too.
-
How would it defeat the purpose of a reboot? I mean, the universe still has the same races/people in it. Khan is still alive out there somewhere on the Botany Bay in the reboot universe too.
I mean, I'm thrilled they're leaving it be, but I don't see how it defeats the purpose of a reboot. Unless you mean there's no point of a reboot if you're just going to re-hash old characters. In which case, well I wouldn't care but I'd be fine without any of them too.
I don't mean simply reusing old characters, which is fine in itself. I just mean if they're trying to break out and establish that this is a new Trek franchise, I think it would defeat the purpose to already have to be mining such an iconic and memorable villian from TOS/TWOK (especially on the same respective movie). I think it would come across as desperate, and show a lack of originality, plus you just can't compare to Montalban. It would pale in comparison.
That said, it would all come down to how they executed it, but I just don't think it's in their best interest to be using Khan, of all villians. Taking a different villian from TOS and turning that into something bigger could be a great idea. They could do Harry Mudd for all I care. Just not Khan.
-
I just watched the Mudd episodes actually. The dude who played Mudd was excellent, but hardly a "villain". I mean if Dom Deluise were still alive he could do it, but Mudd would be pointless to bring back. As long as the villians are Romulans this time I'm okay.
-
I just watched the Mudd episodes actually. The dude who played Mudd was excellent, but hardly a "villain". I mean if Dom Deluise were still alive he could do it, but Mudd would be pointless to bring back. As long as the villians are Romulans this time I'm okay.
It is a reboot though, so they can take characters in a slightly different direction. Mudd was more of a comedic character, but I think they could expand on a darker side if they really wanted to. But I only mentioned him hypothetically as the first guy to come to mind, not as an actual suggestion.
I'd like to see some real Klingons make a return, but aside from that, I just want a good movie.
-
.........real Klingons? I'm scared to ask what you mean lol.
-
.........real Klingons? I'm scared to ask what you mean lol.
:lol I just mean not like the weird masked guys from the deleted scenes of the last movie. I mean the guys we all know with the ridged foreheads and long hair and funky beards, except without the padded glitter costumes.
-
.........real Klingons? I'm scared to ask what you mean lol.
:lol I just mean not like the weird masked guys from the deleted scenes of the last movie. I mean the guys we all know with the ridged foreheads and long hair and funky beards, except without the padded glitter costumes.
Oh good. Well we've had Klingons for Star Trek III, Star Trek VI, and a huge amount of TNG and DS9. I say bring back the Xindi!
Ah screw it. They should just mess with everybody and have the next movie take place completely in the mirror universe.
-
I think a mirror universe movie would kick ass, actually. Plus all the chicks wear less clothing.
-
Has anyone ever addressed the misprediction of the Eugenics Wars?
-
Has anyone ever addressed the misprediction of the Eugenics Wars?
I could be off here, but doesn't First Contact take place int he aftermath of it?
How would it defeat the purpose of a reboot? I mean, the universe still has the same races/people in it. Khan is still alive out there somewhere on the Botany Bay in the reboot universe too.
I mean, I'm thrilled they're leaving it be, but I don't see how it defeats the purpose of a reboot. Unless you mean there's no point of a reboot if you're just going to re-hash old characters. In which case, well I wouldn't care but I'd be fine without any of them too.
I don't mean simply reusing old characters, which is fine in itself. I just mean if they're trying to break out and establish that this is a new Trek franchise, I think it would defeat the purpose to already have to be mining such an iconic and memorable villian from TOS/TWOK (especially on the same respective movie). I think it would come across as desperate, and show a lack of originality, plus you just can't compare to Montalban. It would pale in comparison.
That said, it would all come down to how they executed it, but I just don't think it's in their best interest to be using Khan, of all villians. Taking a different villian from TOS and turning that into something bigger could be a great idea. They could do Harry Mudd for all I care. Just not Khan.
The first thing they said regarding the bad guy, about a year ago was a list of candidates, and Mudd was one of them. As was Trelaine, who seems like a better fit for that British guy playing the villain. That's where my money was all along.
Good discussion, and totally agree. But, it wasn't just a problem of the redshirts, but really anybody who got a certain reputation from the onset (redshirts =security, Worf =strength) where they never actually spent any screen time showing them to their strength, but instead only showed how they got defeated in it.
rumborak
I suspect that's almost always the case in any tv show or moive. You really can't have your villains constantly getting beat up the first time they come across a security guy. They have to establish some sort of superiority, or else there's not really any story. That's why cops get killed on TV, and the detectives are the ones to show up and capture them. It makes sense that the redshirts would be the first to come across them, that's their job. As I recall, the difference in TNG is that the yellow shirts tend to just use phasers all the time rather than going toe-to-toe against somebody, and in shootouts they often get beaten just the same. People running amok on the Enterprise D usually manage to stun/kill a few of them and escape anyway.
And one of the things that always intrigued me about Worf was that as chief of security he seemed to get put down fairly often. How many times do people beam onto the bridge and capture everybody (or Piccard)? Last week it was a freaking Ferengi!. Worf shoots and misses and then gets stunned himself. I seem to recall that happening on a semi-regular basis.
When did they establish that humans lack the ability to do the nerve pinch?
And how the hell does John Luck Pickerd doing the nerve pinch make him godlike?
Spock once mind melded with a computer and a rock. That's fine? But Picard doing a technique that I find no reason for him not to do is pushing the limits?
They never established that they couldn't. It was more of a running joke. Still, it hadn't been done by humans before Picard suddenly develops the ability. While that doesn't make him Godlike, I do think TPTB were trying pretty hard to make him appear such, and that was another instance. Just my observation.
-
The first thing they said regarding the bad guy, about a year ago was a list of candidates, and Mudd was one of them. As was Trelaine, who seems like a better fit for that British guy playing the villain. That's where my money was all along.
Oh I hope it's not Trelane. I couldn't take him seriously as a bad guy, especially knowing the "twist" in advance.
I'm hoping for a 100% original bad guy, but perhaps something that ties into TOS into a clever way, rather than a character directly taken and just dumped into a movie. I don't even like the look of whats-his-face playing the villian anyway.
I'm actually just as excited for the soundtrack as for the movie at this stage (if not more so). Michael Giacchino really knocked it out of the park with the last one.
-
Here were your candidates as of 10/11.
(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/st12vilrum.jpg)
Honestly, Mudd isn't all that terrible a choice. In his first appearance he was more eccentric than silly. Remember that he was willing to let them all burn rather than give up a potential payday. It was his second episode where he was comic relief.
-
Here were your candidates as of 10/11.
(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/st12vilrum.jpg)
Honestly, Mudd isn't all that terrible a choice. In his first appearance he was more eccentric than silly. Remember that he was willing to let them all burn rather than give up a potential payday. It was his second episode where he was comic relief.
So is it definitely out of those? I haven't kept up with everything recently, so I don't recall this.
My favourite of those would be option 2. It would fit the few set photos I've seen, and could work well (you know, as long as we don't see a James R Kirk grave stone again :P ).
I'm not seeing it being Mudd, and Trelane would be silly. And I can't even tell what the last one is from judging from that picture.
-
I don't see the new guy as Gary Mitchell. Doesn't that Cumberbatch guy have hair longer than what a member of the crew would? He just doesn't look very Starfleet in the pictures we've seen. As for validity, I wouldn't take anything they've said or released too seriously, but at the time they were making it seem pretty damned official.
-
I don't see the new guy as Gary Mitchell. Doesn't that Cumberbatch guy have hair longer than what a member of the crew would? He just doesn't look very Starfleet in the pictures we've seen. As for validity, I wouldn't take anything they've said or released too seriously, but at the time they were making it seem pretty damned official.
His hair didn't seem too long to me, although definitely a bit longer than what I would call "short". And now that I think about it, in the leaked set photos, he does have a Starfleet patch on his shirt (entirely black shirt for some reason though).
-
https://www.geekrest.com/2012/02/more-photos-surface-from-set-of-star-trek-sequel/
I don't see any insignia, but it does look like the same shirt the guy behind him is wearing that does have a patch. Regardless, the Flock of Seagulls haircut does not look very Starfleet.
-
Strange, because it's clearly visible in the pic on this page below, but not in the other pics you've linked that seem to show the entire shirt. Maybe it was Photoshopped? But it's clearly Cumberbatch and not the background dude, as proven by the same face scar. And they're wearing the same outfit otherwise (even the same style of shirt), so they're clearly together.
https://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-talk/first-set-photos-star-trek-sequel-222928738.html
I personally don't think the haircut is a deal breaker here. It's not that much longer, especially if it were neatly gelled. We've only seen it messy during a fight at this stage.
-
Okey-Dokey. We've now pretty much seen the extent of my give-a-shit about this movie. My expectation is that it'll suck, so I'm not concerning myself too much with it. I'll certainly watch the thing when it comes out on DVD, but I'm not expecting to be amused by anything except a few in-jokes.
-
So I'm guessing you didn't like the last movie?
I'll definitely be seeing this one as soon as it comes out at the cinema, as I did the last one. I'm still mixed on Trek XI, but I liked it enough to at least give this one a chance right away.
-
I'm pretty sure I wrote quite a bit about it a while back, but in a nutshell, I think Abrams sucks. He's making action movies for the reality TV crowd, who have no attention span and no desire to actually think. Star Trek should be sci-fi, and good sci-fi is no longer doable in movie format, at least if it's intended to be profitable.
-
The sad part is that it's looking more and more like good scifi isn't even doable in TV format any more, which is where shows like Trek have always been at their best. And big action/scifi movies generally have to be lowest common denominator for outright ticket sales to survive.
-
Yeah, like I said, the current industry model won't support a good Trek movie.
What I said a few months ago about it:
As for the reboot: J.J Abrams must die. I really want to like it more than I do. I think they could be onto something with it. The casting was great. I liked the story and even Captain Nero. I don't have a problem with the new timeline, although multiple canons will get confusing after a while. It was just a horrible mess of story telling. Abram's entire plan seemed to be throwback references and action sequences. A lot of the references were actually pretty amusing, but got stale fairly quickly. As for the action sequences, much like plenty of other modern action flicks, so chaotic that they made no sense whatsoever. I don't understand why they spend 20 million dollars on a CGI scene that happens so fast you can't even tell who's shooting at what.
And I think that's largely a function of what I dislike most about Abram's style with this. It's shot to appear like you're in the middle of it. It's Star Trek for the realty television segment. Hand held cameras, shaking all hell over the place, and multiple lens flairs in every scene, as if they had no control over the lighting. I want to see the story unfold, not be a part of it. It used to be that immersion came from the story, and good filmmakers knew that their role should be to stay the fuck out the way. Shame that's no longer the case.
The first thing I did when I finished 2009 was look to see if Abrams was directing the next one. Sadly, he is. Moreover, I'd bet good money they make it in 3d. The next step in making the telling of the story more important than the story itself. Sigh.
-
https://www.geekrest.com/2012/02/more-photos-surface-from-set-of-star-trek-sequel/
I don't see any insignia, but it does look like the same shirt the guy behind him is wearing that does have a patch. Regardless, the Flock of Seagulls haircut does not look very Starfleet.
Damn. How many times can one recut the same photo?!
rumborak
-
Just wrapped up Second Chances (the one with the duplicate Riker). That was actually pretty good. There were some interesting ethical issues which they managed to throw out without getting melodramatic or cheesy.
According to Memory-Alpha, the writers considered killing off Commander Riker hand having Lt. Riker takeover ops, with Data promoted to XO. That would have been a pretty ballsy move, and actually fairly interesting. I always liked Data in leadership roles, and having a completely different Riker would have created some much needed tension.
-
Just wrapped up Second Chances (the one with the duplicate Riker). That was actually pretty good. There were some interesting ethical issues which they managed to throw out without getting melodramatic or cheesy.
According to Memory-Alpha, the writers considered killing off Commander Riker hand having Lt. Riker takeover ops, with Data promoted to XO. That would have been a pretty ballsy move, and actually fairly interesting. I always liked Data in leadership roles, and having a completely different Riker would have created some much needed tension.
Data as XO would have been cool. Any version of Riker at ops would have been awful. And replacing him with essentially a duplicate just would have been a mess. Ballsy yes, but ultimately not a very wise choice.
-
It would depend on whether or not Frakes could keep him as a separate character. Lt. Riker was fairly different than the Commander. Also, he could have diverged even further from the original as the show went on. In this case, he would have been mondo-ambitious and fairly bitter. Both a far cry from W. Riker. I think it could have been cool.
-
Meh.
What would have been interesting? Lt. Riker, Lore and Shinzon stealing a ship and trying to destroy the Enterprise randomly.
-
I was thinking just now about this excellent Voyager episode where the whole crew was just copies of the actual crew, but they only slowly realize it. That was one hell of an episode.
rumborak
-
I was thinking just now about this excellent Voyager episode where the whole crew was just copies of the actual crew, but they only slowly realize it. That was one hell of an episode.
rumborak
I talked about that earlier. Easily (in my opinion) the best voyager episode. Hit on every level. And the ending when the real voyager crew shows up and never realize what happened, meaning that everything the copy crew did was lost forever was intense.
-
Yeah, good episode. The Demon planet episode that set it all up was just terrible, though. Hated it. But C:O was fine work (aside from the title which is pretty lame).
Now I have to point out, what is the likelihood that Dr. Crusher could steal a shuttlecraft, get away from the Enterprise, and lock out all of the shuttle systems that might allow them to retrieve it? And what does it say about the bridge crew? Where is Worf in all of this? Isn't it his job to make sure unqualified people don't steal shuttlecraft and fly them into a sun? I'm not looking to slag on an otherwise decent episode, but sometimes you can't help but to wonder WTF.
-
Dammit. Wrote out a response but the internet broke.
Anywho, lots of episodes of lots of shows have those moments where logic is replaced by the need to serve the plot. TNG, Voyager, DS9, TOS and so forth have done it dozens of times. I quit caring.
If things on Ships ran the way they were supposed to, 95% of the problems that cause episodes wouldn't exist.
-
Well, obviously I agree with all of that. It's the point I made about the redshirts getting beat up all the time. In this case, though, why not have it happen while Worf is off killing holograms or something? Or Data? Just seems like it would have been a good time to have a scrub around to take the fall; much like those aforementioned redshirts. Michael Dorn seemed to be rather proud of what he added to Worf. If I'm him, I'm raising that suggestion.
-
OK, here's a random question: I can't think right now of a single Scifi series that had bathrooms. Enterprise had showers, but I can't remember any toilets in any Scifi series.
rumborak
-
OK, here's a random question: I can't think right now of a single Scifi series that had bathrooms. Enterprise had showers, but I can't remember any toilets in any Scifi series.
rumborak
Pretty sure the Battlestar remake had everything you'd expect in a ship, including coed showers and bathrooms. Granted you never saw a guy taking a dump, but I'm pretty sure they had bathrooms.
Also pretty sure Firefly had a toilet in it at some point.
-
I'm sure Roddenberry's future-perfect humanity had evolved past the point of such distasteful practices.
When looking for a bridge layout a while back, I recall that according to the technical manual of the Galaxy class, there's a crapper affixed to the bridge. Two turbo lifts, one ready room, one observation lounge and one can.
-
Don't you people from the 24th century ever pee?
-
Watching the episode of TOS right now where Kirk, Spock, Bones and a few others start aging rapidly.
So the situation is that they are aging really fast and could essentially die very soon. So what do they do? Do they look for a cure? Meh. Do they take care of business? Meh. They hold a lengthy trial to see if Kirk is okay to command (which he clearly isn't). The hell kind of logic is that Spock?
-
I was thinking just now about this excellent Voyager episode where the whole crew was just copies of the actual crew, but they only slowly realize it. That was one hell of an episode.
rumborak
I watched that one only last week (Course: Oblivion). I love the episode, especially the futile ending, although the setup from the Demon planet episode is weak.
An entire crew "forgot" they were clones, even though the majority of them were only DNA clones, and shouldn't have had the real crew's memories to begin with, and there was never any mention of cloning the ship, or how they managed to get the anti-matter (could they clone that? Usually that seems to be a hitch in these things), and none of them could breathe regular air, and yet they had no problem surviving on Voyager. Even if they'd changed their environmental settings on the ship, they still wouldn't have been able to survive on the numerous planets they mentioned stopping at, and the Doctor should have noticed the difference even if he wasn't aware they were clones. The idea of a crew of 140 somehow forgetting they were fake simultaneously doesn't work.
But accepting that story contrivance, I really love the episode. It's something very different, it's a great twist on first viewing, and it gets really dark and desperate at the end.
-
Watching the episode of TOS right now where Kirk, Spock, Bones and a few others start aging rapidly.
So the situation is that they are aging really fast and could essentially die very soon. So what do they do? Do they look for a cure? Meh. Do they take care of business? Meh. They hold a lengthy trial to see if Kirk is okay to command (which he clearly isn't). The hell kind of logic is that Spock?
Yeah, I recall similar concerns last I saw it. The problem was that Spock refused to assume command, which would have negated the need for the hearing. I also recall that the subplot of Kirk's old girlfriend on board seemed tacked on. Still, none of that really matters. The entire point of the exercise was just to create the conclusion where Kirk takes control and saves the ship by being a badass.
His ability to bluff anybody is my second favorite Kirk attribute. First is his ability to talk computers into destroying themselves with logic.
-
Speaking of which, I saw Return of the Archons yesterday. It is so tiring to see Kirk just defeat EVERY SINGLE COMPUTER with logic, especially when it's identical every single time. And in this case, he actually didn't have an argument at all. Kirk didn't contradict the computer's programming in any way. He just yelled at the computer until it exploded. It was a really good episode up until then, although half of it was never explained.
If Shatner wasn't so selfish, TOS could have been a really good ensemble show, but instead Kirk just hogged every single bit of dialogue and progress in every episodes, and belittled every other character.
-
Not the way I recall it. It was quite logical. The only issue there was that it was Spock with the final nail in the coffin:
LANDRU: Peace, order, and tranquility are maintained. The body lives, but I reserve creativity to me.
SPOCK: Then the body dies. Creativity is necessary for the health of the Body.
-
Not the way I recall it. It was quite logical. The only issue there was that it was Spock with the final nail in the coffin:
LANDRU: Peace, order, and tranquility are maintained. The body lives, but I reserve creativity to me.
SPOCK: Then the body dies. Creativity is necessary for the health of the Body.
Exactly. Kirk didn't contradict the computer's programming. He tried to redefine the parameters of the computer to create his argument, but the computer is already programmed with its parameters defined. It has no reason to accept new ones from Kirk.
It was not a win of logic.
It was also yet another instance of Kirk deciding the fate of an entire society based on his own subjective judgement. TOS's idea of being able to go to town on a society if he doesn't feel like they're progressing is something I find silly and narrow minded. His only valid reason was the fact it was affecting the Enterprise.
-
But the parameters were flawed, which is what Kirk pointed out. Landru had only one purpose, and it was doing the opposite of that purpose due to a flaw in it's understanding of human nature. I see no problem with this.
-
But the parameters were flawed, which is what Kirk pointed out. Landru had only one purpose, and it was doing the opposite of that purpose due to a flaw in it's understanding of human nature. I see no problem with this.
How were the parameters flawed? And how did Kirk actually prove the parameters were flawed? All Kirk did was simply tell it his own idea of what a society should be, but not proving that it was necessary in any way. The society was working fine, aside from the random violence which was never even explained or mentioned anyway.
It must have been a terrible computer to blow up from being yelled at.
-
Perhaps he proved the flaw by example. Landru's minions had stagnated for decades. Kirk's creativity enabled crew managed to stay a step ahead of Landru, figure out it's purpose and confront him about it, all in about a day.
It occurs to me that we both have problems with one of the underlying necessities of the shows. Starship captains have to be portrayed as the very best humanity has to offer; otherwise what's the point. This involves giving them a superhuman skill-set. That means some talents that you wouldn't really expect them to have. I always found Picard's ability to beat the living shit out of a knife-wielding Klingon or seven foot Nossican to be far fetched, to say the least. I can certainly see how Kirk out-thinking a computer, or beating Spock at chess wouldn't sit well with you. In the end, I suppose it comes down to which character you like better. I obviously prefer JTK's style. I've got no problem with people preferring JLP's. Once you decide you like the character, portrayals of them being vastly superior aren't such a problem.
edit: and I draw the line at Troi's insipid ass beating Data at chess. That was just fucking stupid.
-
It has nothing to do with liking or disliking him. I like Kirk, I just believe he's the product of narrow minded '60s ideals of society, and thus was a bad influence on many societies that functioned perfectly until he intervened, and I can guarantee would have quickly crumbled once the Enterprise left. These societies just weren't prepared to be thrown into the deep end on their own. Then Kirk and crew left smug that they'd made the galaxy more "human".
Kirk didn't prove to the computer that it had failed. The computer's purpose was to maintain peace, tranquility, the good of the "body". It was doing this aside from the random violence, which was never explained, nor ever brought up by Kirk as evidence to Landru to support Kirk's point. There was no reason ever given for the random violence, so we don't know whether it was due to a computer malfunction or limitation of removing free will, or relevant in any way, and was basically a fun plot point to establish an interesting civilization to walk into (which I actually loved).
Kirk says the "body" needs creativity or it dies, but did not prove this in any way, especially not the melodramatic literal way he suggested. The computer states that peace, order and tranquility were maintained, and it reserves creativity to itself. Kirk did not prove that the people needed the creativity and free will themselves, since the society had functioned for thousands (?) of years before they interfered. He didn't make any link as to why the "body" dies without creativity. If that was an essay, he would have failed for jumping straight to the conclusion without evidence.
edit: And wtf, Troi couldn't beat a chocolate sundae at chess. I can't remember that, but Data would have to be literally switched off for that to be remotely plausible. :lol
-
Well, I think we've already established that I have a different view of what constitutes healthy humanity than you and Adami. The Kirk era comes a lot closer, in my book. I maintain that the Picard era humans are lifeless avatars. We won't agree on which is better, so we'll just go on preferring different depictions.
As for Landru, Kirk made the more convincing argument. I agree that there was no proof that creativity was vital to the continuation of the body, but I'm not sure that matters. For one thing proof isn't always present, and you can still win an argument by making the better case. Another consideration is that perhaps Landru already recognized that creativity was necessary, but hadn't been factoring it in all of these years. As was pointed out, it had the original Landru's intellect and ideas, but couldn't gain his wisdom. The necessity of creativity might have just been something it knew innately, but hadn't come to realize yet.
Don't recall which episode it was, although it was recent, but Data told troi that she made a foolish move. She smugly said "you just wait and see," and made a move that surprised Data, who told her that she'd win in x number of moves. Then they all got called to the bridge for some pointless love fest or something.
-
Kirk made the more convincing argument. :lol
He made no argument at all. He leapt directly to the conclusion with nothing inbetween. This argument wouldn't even hold water for arguing with a human with opposing ideals, let alone a computer that should have required REAL logic, and not just yelling. You can't win an argument against a computer without objective proof. That cannot make a case at all. Landru already said it reserved creativity for itself, and Kirk made no argument that this was not working. None at all.
At least in the other cases of Kirk arguing with machines, he actually had some valid arguments of logic. In the Ultimate Computer, it was programmed to know that killing was wrong, and knew what the punishment was, so they could objectively prove that it had contradicted its programming, so it had no choice but to obey its own programming. In I, Mudd, they beat the machines not with logic, but with illogic. The robots simply weren't programmed to solve the contradictions they were offered with conflicting input.
But in this episode, Kirk did not beat the computer with logic, or illogic. He simply pummeled it to death with irrelevant human ideals that had nothing to do with its programming. I'm not saying these ideals were wrong, but he made no case to prove them at all, especially not for a computer with strict parameters that it was clearly functioning within.
-
I, shockingly, agree with Blob. At no point did Kirk actually use logic to destroy a computer. He simply annoyed them to death by repeating himself over and over. I assume they died from suicide as an attempt to shut him up.
Also, noticing 2 things about TOS so far in my rewatch.
1. McCoy is the most condescending ethnocentric character on the show. Every alien planet that is different than earth's he insults and demands they become more like earth.
2. Between the non main crew away team dying every time they go somewhere, and they super hot 25 year old female "specialist" they keep having to bring a long and then leaving on the planet once she falls in love with villain of that week, I'm surprised they had much of a crew left.
-
I, shockingly, agree with Blob. At no point did Kirk actually use logic to destroy a computer. He simply annoyed them to death by repeating himself over and over. I assume they died from suicide as an attempt to shut him up.
Also, noticing 2 things about TOS so far in my rewatch.
1. McCoy is the most condescending ethnocentric character on the show. Every alien planet that is different than earth's he insults and demands they become more like earth.
2. Between the non main crew away team dying every time they go somewhere, and they super hot 25 year old female "specialist" they keep having to bring a long and then leaving on the planet once she falls in love with villain of that week, I'm surprised they had much of a crew left.
It's a shame Picard wasn't there to rip Landru apart with his bare hands. :lol
The only hot specialist I can think of that they left behind after falling in love with the bad guy was MacGyvers w/Khan. Who else was there? Apollo died, so it's not that chick.
-
Oh I was obviously exaggerating. It was more the idea that they keep having these different 25 year old hot specialists that fall in love with the villain. I think a few of them got left behind besides the girl with Khan (which was a terrible idea by the way, oh you tried to take over the ship and kill everybody? Well we'll just give you a planet.....if it's alright with you). But I can't recall them off hand.
And your disliking of picard not withstanding, the idea that you can just convince all of your enemies to give up by saying that you're view is the right one is a horrible idea.
-
The Apollo chick is the only other one I can think of that fell in love with the villain. And I don't recall any of them being left behind.
I thought the solution to Khan was alright. Imprisoning them would have been a tragic waste. In retrospect it was obviously the wrong call, but they had no way of knowing that and I can certainly appreciate their willingness to take a creative approach. It's interesting to ponder what Picard would have done with him, and the only think I can think of is that he would have left the decision up to Starfleet command. Kind of weak, IMO.
And I don't dislike Picard at all. As I've said all along, he and Data are the two characters that make the show as good as it is. I do think they try and make him out to be a superman, but like I said, they did the same thing with Kirk out of dramatic necessity. I just prefer Kirk as a representative of his era.
-
Regardless of the series, the main characters have always had the skills and strength to take down whatever the villain of the week was. Picard beats the hell out of Klingons, Sisco and Co take on Jem'Hadar (frequently) in hand to hand combat and don't get killed and Kirk convinces computers to blow up. Fer Chrissakes, DS9 (the best Trek series) has Klingon boarding parties getting the crap kicked out of them by Bajoran and Federation officers. Not one or two Klingons, but entire parties of the lifelong warriors.
It's ridiculous, but it's Star Trek.
-
Regardless of the series, the main characters have always had the skills and strength to take down whatever the villain of the week was. Picard beats the hell out of Klingons, Sisco and Co take on Jem'Hadar (frequently) in hand to hand combat and don't get killed and Kirk convinces computers to blow up. Fer Chrissakes, DS9 (the best Trek series) has Klingon boarding parties getting the crap kicked out of them by Bajoran and Federation officers. Not one or two Klingons, but entire parties of the lifelong warriors.
It's ridiculous, but it's Star Trek.
The Klingons and Jem Hadar aren't super human robots. They can be taken out. The federation officers are (supposed to be) highly trained as well. Also keep in mind that at one point early on, the Jem Hedar and the Federation (at least part of them) trained together.
-
Regardless of the series, the main characters have always had the skills and strength to take down whatever the villain of the week was. Picard beats the hell out of Klingons, Sisco and Co take on Jem'Hadar (frequently) in hand to hand combat and don't get killed and Kirk convinces computers to blow up. Fer Chrissakes, DS9 (the best Trek series) has Klingon boarding parties getting the crap kicked out of them by Bajoran and Federation officers. Not one or two Klingons, but entire parties of the lifelong warriors.
It's ridiculous, but it's Star Trek.
The Klingons and Jem Hadar aren't super human robots. They can be taken out. The federation officers are (supposed to be) highly trained as well. Also keep in mind that at one point early on, the Jem Hedar and the Federation (at least part of them) trained together.
Yeah, but...
Klingons and Jem'Hadar are warriors. Jem'Hadar are engineered specifically to be warriors. They're stronger than humans and they exist only to fight for the founders. Klingons, at variously inconsistent times, have been shown to possess strength beyond that of most humans. Many train in hand to hand combat with archaic weapons and they sure as hell probably train more than the average Federation officer.
My point is not that they should be impossible to fight, but just how inconsistently they're handled as capable warriors. Plus, add in the fact that most Federation ships are 'science' ships, they're crewed by scientists and families, not necessarily warriors. That's what made the Defiant so special: it was the only Federation warship at that point.
To be fair, this is not something that really bothers me, it's just worth pointing out in the context of the argument. Every Trek series has silly things. I guess the point comes, can you ignore these silly things enough to enjoy the show? With DS9 and (mostly) tNG, I can. With Voyager and TOS, I try really hard to, but mostly I can't.
-
The Jem Hadar kind of are. The Gamma variety were designed from scratch to be the perfect human killing machines. They're superior to humans in every way that relates to combat, with the only deficiency being the human creativity that has been the basis for humans winning every fight throughout every series; including Kirk vs. computers.
-
1. McCoy is the most condescending ethnocentric character on the show. Every alien planet that is different than earth's he insults and demands they become more like earth.
That's why I never understand people lactating over the K/S/M triangle. To me McCoy is mostly just, as you say, an ethnocentric grumpy old guy who just rants at everybody, but has usually little to offer for the resolution of the problem at hand.
rumborak
-
So according to Memory Alpha, Dax was born in 2018. They could totally fold him/her into the next ST movie. Sadly, I know they won't :(
rumborak
-
So according to Memory Alpha, Dax was born in 2018. They could totally fold him/her into the next ST movie. Sadly, I know they won't :(
rumborak
They won't for 1 reason. It's not aimed at Star Trek fans. It's aimed at people who have seen SOME star trek at most and know a few little jokes. Hell I doubt the two idiot writers even know who Dax is.
-
1. McCoy is the most condescending ethnocentric character on the show. Every alien planet that is different than earth's he insults and demands they become more like earth.
That's why I never understand people lactating over the K/S/M triangle. To me McCoy is mostly just, as you say, an ethnocentric grumpy old guy who just rants at everybody, but has usually little to offer for the resolution of the problem at hand.
rumborak
From the start I almost considered it like Spock and McCoy were Kirk's two consciences, basically "good" and "bad". Unfortunately, Kirk usually listens to the bad more often than not. The main reason I strongly disliked McCoy at the start. He's grown on me now as a silly old coot.
So according to Memory Alpha, Dax was born in 2018. They could totally fold him/her into the next ST movie. Sadly, I know they won't :(
rumborak
Yeah, I wouldn't expect anything like that as more than a passing reference, like mentioning Admiral Archer's beagle in the last movie.
-
I don't remember much about the motion picture, but I'm pretty sure they made the characters really great when the movies came out. The show though, eesh. I'm actually watching the first season of Frasier at the same time because watching back to back TOS episodes is tedious.
-
Same characters, they just bothered to give them some time to develop in the movies. Kirk was wiser and more jaded. McCoy mellowed out quite a bit. Spock ran the gamut from stoic and taciturn, to cool and wise, to dead and mildly retarded.
And I think you're expecting too much from TOS. It is what it is, which is a piece of low-budget 1967 sci-fi. Personally, I like it. You and BVD seem to expect it to be up to DS9 or BSG standards. Not gonna happen. It's made by people with no money, no resources, and ostensibly no future. Not grading them on the basis of what people did with their idea 25 years later, I think they did a pretty good job.
-
I don't hold the budget or consistency with other shows against them. I hold the writing/directing/acting against them. I doubt having tons more money would make their stories any less dumb.
I'm on the episode now where they're in "chicago" in the 20's. Scotty finds out they've been kidnapped............but doesn't even considering beaming them out? They have to wait till Spock escapes and personally asks to be beamed out? Eh.
-
Heck, my favourite series is Voyager, so I don't think my standards are too picky :lol
I don't expect it to be as good as later series, so it baffles me that anyone can rank it with them. At all. It is what it is; a fun old '60s scifi show that spawned one of my favourite franchises, but in itself is a pretty laughable show.
And in that regard, I greatly enjoy TOS. But I don't take it seriously at all.
-
I don't hold the budget or consistency with other shows against them. I hold the writing/directing/acting against them. I doubt having tons more money would make their stories any less dumb.
I'm on the episode now where they're in "chicago" in the 20's. Scotty finds out they've been kidnapped............but doesn't even considering beaming them out? They have to wait till Spock escapes and personally asks to be beamed out? Eh.
Well, actually, having more money for writers and directors might actually have made the show better. Don't ya think?
And honestly, the whole point of a lot of these is to be fun. That episode qualified. It's no different than any of the comedy episodes TNG did, and no shorter in huge, gaping plot holes (which that might not actually be, anyway).
-
I think one of TOS' detriments was that even when it had an interesting premise, it was poorly thought through. Take the episode about the two societies that wage war inside their computers. Awesome premise because it is a believable in view of the increasing automation of war. Termination chambers? Not so much. A simple twist, e.g. that people would enroll as virtual soldiers (with the potential of actual death through termination) in the war, in return for compensation, causing the poorest segment of society to turn to canon fodder... now that would have made the episode interesting because it would have struck home with a lot of viewers.
rumborak
-
That's a fine idea. But like I said, I think TOS was more about being fun, and that's a little more thoughtful than they were out for. They'd occasionally make social statements, and that episode was one of those, but they still tried to do it in a somewhat lighthearted manner, rather than getting all The Deer Hunter on us.
A problem with your premise is that a real life soldier has some control over their fate. Better skilled guys tend not to get fragged as often as noobs. In their model, it'd still be a random outcome. You get paid to roll the dice a couple of times a week, and maybe you get disintegrated. The pay would have to be phenomenal.
-
A problem with your premise is that a real life soldier has some control over their fate. Better skilled guys tend not to get fragged as often as noobs. In their model, it'd still be a random outcome. You get paid to roll the dice a couple of times a week, and maybe you get disintegrated. The pay would have to be phenomenal.
With the same argument lotteries shouldn't work. Maybe they could have a double-sided lottery. There's both the chance to win big, and to lose big.
rumborak
-
I think one of TOS' detriments was that even when it had an interesting premise, it was poorly thought through. Take the episode about the two societies that wage war inside their computers. Awesome premise because it is a believable in view of the increasing automation of war. Termination chambers? Not so much. A simple twist, e.g. that people would enroll as virtual soldiers (with the potential of actual death through termination) in the war, in return for compensation, causing the poorest segment of society to turn to canon fodder... now that would have made the episode interesting because it would have struck home with a lot of viewers.
rumborak
What your describing wasn't what the episode was about. The issue between the two civilizations wasn't that soldiers were fighting and dying. It's that they were destroying each other's planets.
If they did the compromise you're suggesting, it would make sense in a weird way. Cut out the suffering and the hassle. What's the price that needs to be paid in lives? Pay it without the hassle of a war.
The reason the compromise in the episode is so wrong is that it's a way for both civilizations to experience a version of war that is easy for purely self-interested purposes. They weren't trying to make the consequences of war easier to go through, they were trying to eliminate the consequences. This is why Kirk's speech was what it was and why his speech matters. They would rather send innocent people to death chambers than go through the process of trying to resolve their differences, simply because they didn't want to ruin the landscaping. It's indefensible if you have any traditional sense of ethics.
-
I'm kind of digging the WWPD game. Would Picard have stopped their war? My guess is that he very likely wouldn't have. However, he also wouldn't have sacrificed his crew/ship, which would probably be in violation of the prime directive anyway (laws and customs of the host planet). He still would have offered to mediate the truce, so the outcome might have been the same anyway, but Kirk's solution left them with no avenue to fall back to the existing model. Picard would have left their ability to return to their computer war intact, lessening the prospect of success. But then they'd be off doing something else next week, so it wouldn't really matter.
-
Worf's an idiot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=edflm7Hh3hs#!)
And Worthless as head of security (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7nqb-o1ub54)
To be fair, he was right on a couple of those occasions, and he won some of those fights (eventually), but both points are still valid. I'd be curious to see who'd win a fight between him and a TOS redshirt (although the guy who fought Matt Decker would have kicked his ass royally).
-
Worf didn't really have a point for a long time. He wasn't great until DS9.
-
In the history of the Star Trek franchise, has there ever been a command decision more stupid than placing Dr. Crusher in command of the ship in a known hostile environment? Against teh Borg, no less? Even Troi has some command experience. What's all the more puzzling is that the only thing all of these people were needed for is wandering around looking for Data. Is Picard actually better suited for a search party than Crusher, or anybody else for that matter? Maybe take the guy that's 18th on the order of succession and give him the chair, since he's probably about 400 people ahead of the CMO.
And once they found the building, why not send some people back up. Did he even tell anybody they found the building, or is Riker and everybody else out searching for something they already found.
And thus far we have three expendable crewmen dead from phaser fire. Only one of them even bothered to get a name; probably a SAG actor. The last one decided he wanted to shoot it out with the 200 borg that had surrounded him; must have been a new guy.
-
Looks like this thread has become the "El Barto vs. Adami: TOS vs. TNG" thread.
Well to make this argument quick and concise, my ship is bigger. Booya.
-
Nah, I actually like TNG a lot more than you like TOS. Wouldn't be fun. However, when they try to make a signature piece, like a season cliffhanger, and fuck it up so horribly, I'm certainly going to point it out. If this had just been some mid-season bottle episode, I probably wouldn't be commenting on it. This is one they likely took very seriously, and predicated it on an idea so fundamentally stupid that it's embarrassing.
-
Nah, I actually like TNG a lot more than you like TOS. Wouldn't be fun. However, when they try to make a signature piece, like a season cliffhanger, and fuck it up so horribly, I'm certainly going to point it out. If this had just been some mid-season bottle episode, I probably wouldn't be commenting on it. This is one they likely took very seriously, and predicated it on an idea so fundamentally stupid that it's embarrassing.
To which episode are you referring? There are 28 seasons of Star Trek that I own and sometimes I can't remember specific episodes. Can you clarify so that I might investigate its (alleged) lameness?
-
Descent. Data and Lore corrupt the Borg and torture Geordi. Beverly turns into Rommel and kicks the Borg's ass.
-
Descent. Data and Lore corrupt the Borg and torture Geordi. Beverly turns into Rommel and kicks the Borg's ass.
Ohhhh yea. You know they really had a decent idea there with the individualized Borg. Sucks they just kind of..........forgot about it. Luckily Voyager did a decent job with it for a short time.
I got an idea Bart. I think you and I need some bonding time. How about next year when Star Trek whatever comes out, you and I go together. You can wear a TOS shirt or a "10 reasons Kirk is better than Picard" shirt and I'll wear an "I'm with stupid shirt" with an arrow pointing to you. Then we can watch the movie together and hate it equally, although most likely very different things about it.
-
Descent. Data and Lore corrupt the Borg and torture Geordi. Beverly turns into Rommel and kicks the Borg's ass.
Ohhhh yea. You know they really had a decent idea there with the individualized Borg. Sucks they just kind of..........forgot about it. Luckily Voyager did a decent job with it for a short time.
Yeah, I think they tried to work too much into it. You had the borg problem, Data and Lore, and Crusher's command. The Borg problem was interesting, Data and Lore were boring, and Beverly's command was just pandering.
-
You know what's sad though is that Data and Lore had AMAZING potential. But TNG were too afraid to go dark. Put those same characters with the writers of the last seasons of DS9 or the 3rd season of Enterprise and you could have a hell of a story. Lore needed to be a homicidal maniac instead of just mean rascal, and Data should have had a quest to rid the galaxy of his trouble while at the same time having an underlying urge to protect him from harm.
-
Lore was always a week character, mostly because of Spiner's portrayal. I really like what he did with Data, which is one of the shows strengths, but he ruined Lore. Lore was always over the top. He was over-emotional from the get-go. Notice that there's really no difference between him in their first encounters and after he steals the chip? You say that he needed to be a homicidal madman rather than a mean rascal. I'd suggest that he absolutely was, he just came across as a laughable character because of his flippancy. What was needed was for him to be just as homicidal as he was, but with Data's cool and calculating demeanor. A cold, emotionless sociopath. That would have been pretty intense. That's actually one of the qualities that makes the Borg such good bad guys. If they wanted to work in the emotional angle later, after the chip, then that would have been fine but only after they established him first. They never did that.
-
I didn't mean to imply by "madman" that he be eccentric. Just that he be way more brutal/aggressive. I agree that he needed to be cool and calm like Data though. But imagine Lore just killing thousands whenever he felt the urge.
Him taking the chip was necessary for Data's development, but it served no purpose for Lore's character really.
-
I got what you were saying. I'm just suggesting that he was every bit that brutal, just not to that scale. He was absolutely remorseless in all of his endeavors. He was just goofy in how he went about it.
-
I got what you were saying. I'm just suggesting that he was every bit that brutal, just not to that scale. He was absolutely remorseless in all of his endeavors. He was just goofy in how he went about it.
I know he was remoresless but he never really did much. He did kill his dad, boo hoo, and he sat around with a bunch of Borg. He also killed off a planet.....via proxy and only in the past. I want to see a Lore in command of his own ship that seriously just goes around killing as many organic life forms as possible, no with a big crystal ball, but himself.
-
Doesn't happen in Roddenberry's universe. Death was pretty limited in TNG. Happened all the time in TOS, whole systems wiped out, although the perpetrators were never sociopaths. Interestingly, the giant snowflake might have been the biggest killer in that show.
-
Doesn't happen in Roddenberry's universe. Death was pretty limited in TNG. Happened all the time in TOS, whole systems wiped out, although the perpetrators were never sociopaths. Interestingly, the giant snowflake might have been the biggest killer in that show.
By the end of the show the Borg were responsible for quite a bit of death. But I agree that TNG's main flaw is that it was too bright, I still like it but I prefer DS9 and aspects of Voyager and Enterprise due to their grim view of things. Luckily the movies pretty much eliminated Gene's original vision. You get to see the darkest sides of the characters in the movies.
-
Watching the episode where a computer is given command of the ship. At one point Spock remarks that the most regrettable part of it all is that there isn't a way for a computer to replace the chief medical officer. I just had the vision of Robert Picardo showing up and smiling at the camera at that moment.
-
Btw, your previous comment, I kinda have to say that it wasn't all bad that Roddenberry dropped out at some point. Some of ST's best would not have been produced with him still at the helm.
rumborak
-
Btw, your previous comment, I kinda have to say that it wasn't all bad that Roddenberry dropped out at some point. Some of ST's best would not have been produced with him still at the helm.
rumborak
Totally agreed. He set the building blocks but couldn't have seen the product through. Now if only George Lucas had figured that out.
-
I am rather happy that I am a much stronger ST fan than a SW fan. I would hate it how Lucas shit on the product.
rumborak
-
Btw, your previous comment, I kinda have to say that it wasn't all bad that Roddenberry dropped out at some point. Some of ST's best would not have been produced with him still at the helm.
rumborak
Totally agreed. He set the building blocks but couldn't have seen the product through. Now if only George Lucas had figured that out.
this. a big reason why Empire Strikes Back is incredible and the best SW is because he didn't direct it
-
OK, here's a random question: I can't think right now of a single Scifi series that had bathrooms. Enterprise had showers, but I can't remember any toilets in any Scifi series.
rumborak
Babylon 5 had standard public restrooms, as well as restrooms in individual quarters.
Firefly had pull-out toilets in the crew quarters.
The new Battlestar Gallactica had co-ed restrooms/showers, and restrooms in private quarters.
Star Trek wouldn't really need them, though. They could just have the transporter periodically beam the waste away, perhaps for reuse in the replicators. ;)
-
Data having nightmares is actually a pretty decent idea. Throw in a side-plot or two and you've got one of those lighthearted episodes that are often perfectly decent. Data having nightmares because of some aliens trapped in the warp core is predictable and just plain fucking stupid. They really have no confidence in their audience at this point.
Earlier today I made it about 2/3 of the way through the episode with Geordi's mother. When checking wikiP to confirm what I suspected was going on so I wouldn't have to finish it, I saw that one of the writers considered it the beginning of the end.
"I think it was a point where we were in the room and we were talking about bringing Geordi's mother in, and we all kind of looked at each other and we were like, "This is sad. This is the best we can do? Is this the best we can do, is Geordi's mother?" It was such a "who cares" idea that we were just sort of, "Oh man… This show has got to end."
It's really showing in season 7. The first six seasons have actually been better than I recalled, but this is every bit as awful as I remembered. It would seem to be a big part of my contempt for this show.
To be fair, the scene with Worf and the cat was pretty damned funny. Still, not enough to salvage this thing. It looks like this show went on a year too long, and I'm suddenly looking forward to Voyager.
-
IIRC, every issue you have with tNG will be 100 times worse in Voyager.
Enjoy the last season while it lasts. Despite its lack of consistency there're a few pretty good episodes and at least one so bad it's good. :lol
Voyager, in comparison, is a stagnant mire of mediocrity.
-
I gotta agree, your main two complaints (although I'm sure there are literally thousands more) about TNG are:
1. Lack of inter-character conflict
2. Condescending morality.
The first point is not only also made in Voyager, it's actually thrown at you. The crew is comprised of warring peoples, yet aside from 2-3 episodes through all 7 years, they seem to get along brilliantly.
The second point brings back memories of Janeway being condescending about her morality to the point where Jean Luc Picard would throw up on her before raping her while yelling "Take THIS prime directive".
-
I gotta agree, your main two complaints (although I'm sure there are literally thousands more) about TNG are:
1. Lack of inter-character conflict
2. Condescending morality.
The first point is not only also made in Voyager, it's actually thrown at you. The crew is comprised of warring peoples, yet aside from 2-3 episodes through all 7 years, they seem to get along brilliantly.
The second point brings back memories of Janeway being condescending about her morality to the point where Jean Luc Picard would throw up on her before raping her while yelling "Take THIS prime directive".
I disagree. Even B'lanna alone makes up for the conflict element. :lol She's a bitch to everyone. It's great. The Maquis plotline was entirely wasted, but they still had their fair share of conflict.
And I don't feel like Janeway gets preachy aside from the times when it's actually 100% justified. And the rest of the time she's happily trading tech with people to get her next fix of coffee.
-
Blob, the El Barto of Voyager.
-
:lol That depends. Do you mean the El Barto (TOS) of Voyager, or the El Barto (TNG) of Voyager? :P
Trust me, I'll be the first to admit the many faults of Voyager, but it's still my favourite, even though I'd never call it the best.
-
The first one of those.
And Voyager had 3 major problems as far as I was concerned.
1. Really lame villains for quite a good portion of the show. Granted they did have awesomeness of species 8472 or whatever, but kind of killed that when they made them scared aliens who wanted peace. The Borg were awesome in Voyager too.
2. They totally wasted the Maquis/Federation story line. Soooo much potential, but the show would have had to been rather dark to work.
3. Virtually no worthwhile characters. Janeway wasn't bad. Chekotay was just an awful character who never added anything. Paris had potential but just never.....did anything. Kim was worthless. Belana just yelled at everyone, but I guess finally made something of herself near the end. Neelix wasn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be, I liked him. Seven was awesome, as was the doctor. But largely the characters did little, went nowhere and never developed in the slightest bit (minus Doc and 7).
Also, the seven of nine/chekotay romance was a terrible idea. A reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly bad idea.
Also would have loved some resolution to the show. They get back to the alpha quadrant. And then what? Nothing, the god damn show ends.
-
I agree with you on every point, for the most part.
It was not strong casting from the start. The characters all grew on me, and I like them all, but a lot of them couldn't act. Harry Kim, Tom Paris and Chakotay were the worst offenders there. I was actually glad once they focused more on Janeway, The Doctor, and 7 of 9, because they were the redeeming characters/actors of the show.
I found their villians of the week to generally be better than their recurring ones. The Kazon were the worst villians ever. I thought the Vidiians were actually a neat idea, but they didn't use them enough. The others were hit and miss. They did have some that I thought were cool though, like the Krenim, and the think tank.
And the ending of Endgame was such a cocktease. They got home in seven years, with so many accomplishments (including the feat of getting home itself), and we don't even get to see them reunite with their loved ones. At all. Overall I thought it was a fairly good episode though, but I agree with every criticism I've heard of it.
DS9 did it right. They wrapped up the main Dominion arc in the first half of the episode, then left the rest for every character to get their own conclusion. It was by far the most satisfying finale of the bunch imo.
-
I think I read somewhere once that they originally wanted to make "Year of Hell" a season long arc.
I have to say, that would have been pure brilliance. They had the reset button at the end anyway, but a whole year of intense pain, torture and bleakness would have been way better than just 2 episodes. Luckily Enterprise essentially did it with season 3.
-
I believe I said a while back about Year of Hell being a year long arc, and I recall I was corrected as being mistaken on that.
It would have made a cool season arc, although as is, it's still one of my favourite Voyager episodes, if not my very favourite.
-
I believe I said a while back about Year of Hell being a year long arc, and I recall I was corrected as being mistaken on that.
It would have made a cool season arc, although as is, it's still one of my favourite Voyager episodes, if not my very favourite.
Wait, was it one episode or 2? I can't remember now. And yea it was really good. Although I still think that one where the clones all die might be the best.
-
I believe I said a while back about Year of Hell being a year long arc, and I recall I was corrected as being mistaken on that.
It would have made a cool season arc, although as is, it's still one of my favourite Voyager episodes, if not my very favourite.
Wait, was it one episode or 2? I can't remember now. And yea it was really good. Although I still think that one where the clones all die might be the best.
It was a two part episode, I was just counting it as one for simplicity.
I watched the clones one just last week, and that's a good one, although probably not one of my favourites largely due to the problems with the premise, which I went into detail with a page or two back.
-
Yea, I remember that.
You had a problem with them forgetting that they were clones, and for being able to breath the air on their voyager.
Well 1, in the original episode they didn't know they were clones, so it would make sense. And 2, it's safe to assume that the air on their voyager was probably the same atmosphere from their planet.
-
Yea, I remember that.
You had a problem with them forgetting that they were clones, and for being able to breath the air on their voyager.
Well 1, in the original episode they didn't know they were clones, so it would make sense. And 2, it's safe to assume that the air on their voyager was probably the same atmosphere from their planet.
I still had a couple of issues with that though.
First of all, they all found out at some point early on that they were clones. How does a whole crew simultaneously selectively forget that? And also, not the whole crew was cloned by the same method of direct contact. Most of the crew was cloned via DNA according to the end of Demon, so I'm unsure why many of them had memories of their real-life counterpart's life to begin with.
And also, they mentioned many planets they had stopped at along the way. Every single humanoid planet in Trek seems to have a pretty breathable humanoid atmosphere. I don't believe that they happened to stumble across all of the only planets that had the same atmosphere as them, and remember that they'd covered a lot of ground with their enhanced warp drive. And the Doctor seemed to have never known they were clones to begin with, so I find it hard to believe he didn't notice such a difference in a routine medical checkup. Those tricorders pick up on just about everything.
Don't get me wrong, I still love the episode, but I feel it was a bit of a major contrivance to make the idea work. Ignoring the setup though, it was a fun episode.
-
Yea......well..............your mother was a kangaroo.
-
That may well be true, but it's not canon, so I'm ok with that.
-
Okay, so I saw the episodes with Yangs and Koms or whatever and the one with the romans.
1. Really? The planet just magically also speaks english (not universal translator) has the american flag, the constitution and the pledge of alliegence? REALLY?!?!? Did I miss the explanation for that one?
2. The romans was dumb as hell. Why was the jesus thing so randomly tacked on? Pretty damn annoying.
The Nazi one wasn't bad. At least they made attempts to explain that one.
-
1. Really? The planet just magically also speaks english (not universal translator) has the american flag, the constitution and the pledge of alliegence? REALLY?!?!? Did I miss the explanation for that one?
:lol I made comments on that on page 28 when I first saw it. The episode was pretty good up until that point, but then Kirk suddenly gets a massive American boner and rants away the rest of the episode. Back when the United Federation of Planets was the United Federation of America. Cringeworthy stuff.
2. The romans was dumb as hell. Why was the jesus thing so randomly tacked on? Pretty damn annoying.
I mentioned that one a while back too. Just seeing the crew's smug faces that the popular earth religion was conquering a planet made me a little sick, not to mention that just like the constitution episode, made absolutely no sense at all. They did not explain how these influences got to random planets.
-
Kirk getting excited about both the constitution and Jesus is hilarious given that he is a Canadian Jew.
-
The Omega Glory certainly wasn't War and Peace, but I liked it nevertheless. I'm used to plenty of silliness in all incarnations of Star Trek, so the crappy ending doesn't ruin it for me, and in this case, Captain Tracy and his plight was a great story. We're suppose to believe that any starship captain would happily allow himself to be slaughtered rather than fight back in that situation, and most of them would, but it stands to reason that a few of them wouldn't.
-
Christ, I'm amazed by how terrible the seventh season of TNG was. No wonder I had such bad opinion of the series. I was really thinking much more highly of it through six seasons, but this is just miserable. There have been some episodes that are just unbearable, including three that I really tried to watch but wasn't able to get past 15 minutes because of the awful writing, and I'm really having a hard time finishing the after-school special on teen suicide.
edit: Nope, make it four.
-
Christ, I'm amazed by how terrible the seventh season of TNG was. No wonder I had such bad opinion of the series. I was really thinking much more highly of it through six seasons, but this is just miserable. There have been some episodes that are just unbearable, including three that I really tried to watch but wasn't able to get past 15 minutes because of the awful writing, and I'm really having a hard time finishing the after-school special on teen suicide.
edit: Nope, make it four.
Which are they?
-
Geordi's mom. Data's mom. Troi's mom doesn't count because I didn't even try to watch that one. Masks, where they use a highschool research paper on DID as an excuse for Data to play 40 characters (all badly). The very special episode about suicide. I made it 2/3 of the way through that, until Worf laid the worst, Clark Gable looking kiss I've ever seen on Troi. If they're not even going to try, neither am I. The episode with Picard and Crusher joined at the hip was pretty unpleasant, but I made it through that one. Ditto with Data's nightmares. And unfortunately it isn't going to get any better until AGT.
-
Sucks for you man.
-
I'm finishing off the last few episodes of TOS I haven't seen.
Yesterday was Miri. Boy, there was a reason I left this one so long. A planet of obnoxious little shit kids. Yet another lazy, convenient "oh look it happens to be literally identical to Earth" episode, furthering my believe that TOS should be completely ignored as canon, because it's a parallel universe show, not a space travel show. And also conveniently, it happens to be identical to Earth at the approximate time the show was filmed! And by identical to Earth, I mean the exact same continents, exact same size, composition etc.
All they did was make a quick note that they were surprised at how unlikely it was, and leave it at that, as if it excused how unbelievably stupid it was. It wasn't even necessary to the storyline.
The basic premise of a planet of children due to a virus that kills people off at puberty is a pretty good one, but for the fact it means you're stuck with watching kids. :lol
The whole thing between Kirk and Miri was just downright creepy, and seeing Kirk accidentally kill a kid took the episode to yet another low point. And nothing pisses me off more than watching a bunch of feral kids getting the better of the crew, even though they had justification for it with how the virus was affecting the crew.
The icing on the cake was hearing Spock use the term "beaker full of death". That doesn't sound very Vulcan to me. :rollin
I also watched Shore Leave. A fun little episode, although again pretty silly, but it worked because it wasn't meant to be too serious. Why was the knight plainly waxy and replicated, yet Kirk's young lover looked indistinguishably human? Was it so it wasn't as disturbing when he decided to stay on the planet to no doubt get some space tail?
Oh, almost forgot I watched What Are Little Girls Made Of. Could it be another episode where Kirk has an antiquated 1960s level of fear and hatred for all technology, and yells and nags a robot to death? Why yes it could be!
The only redeeming quality was Andrea, who was just downright fine, although her death with sort of falling in robot love with Roger was typically stupid. Because everybody knows that robots can't have emotions, and therefore must all die as inferior!! Oh, and let's not forget Kirk's nagging of Ruk to death (indirectly). How the hell does a robot "forget" anything? Ruk forgot what happened to his builders, then Kirk assumed "oh well obviously you killed them all because it's the 1960s, so all robots are evil and want to kill all humans", then Ruk remembered "oh yeah, you're right! I'd just forgotten, but it's still in my memory banks. Therefore I'm going to kill my master, who I have also forgotten is a robot, because that hasn't been revealed in the story yet....". And also, Kirk yelling out thoughts while being duplicated somehow influenced his robot's mind. Whatever they're using to make robots isn't doing it right if that had any effect whatsoever. Kirk displays his superiority to 1960s computing yet again!
Clearly nobody in the 1960s actually understood how machines or computers worked in any way, shape or form.
I've only got a few left now, and they're all very early episodes, so I'm expecting more pain. :lol
-
Andrea was fucking amazing. One of the few ST girls that sticks out in my head as patently gorgeous. Terrible episode, though.
And while I'm watching season 7 of TNG, when the train is clearly plummeting off a ledge, your complaints fall on deaf ears. I agree that TOS had some pretty weak episodes, but the writing in TNG's seventh season was every bit as horrible.
-
Oh and today I watched The Enemy Within - the original transporter malfunction. Of course, it made absolutely no sense. It made two "opposites". How the hell does a transporter create an "opposite" personality? It's again such a narrow minded 1960s human concept, and not something that makes any scientific sense. I'm guessing it was just for their silly little speech about people needing good and evil or something. It was basically Jekyll and Hyde, minus the hookers. How does a transporter create two equal people from the same matter, but somehow split "good" vs "bad"? :lol
But I'll give it credit for creating a classic Trek idea that has been used endlessly to much better effect.
Apparently the transporter made a good/soft Kirk and an evil Kirk. I had trouble figuring out any difference with the evil one. He was abusing people, and trying to have his way with anything with a pulse. How is that different to normal Kirk? ???
And it bugged me for half the episode that they didn't send down a shuttlecraft to save Sulu until I figured/remembered it was before they actually had a shuttlecraft. Crazy.
Speaking of which, the original shuttlecraft is going up for auction soon. In pretty bad shape, but the fact that it even still exists is amazing, and I'd expect it will go for a pretty high figure. That must be the biggest "prop" salvaged from the original series.
-
Some jackass is going to buy that thing thinking they can restore it. The reason it's being sold now is because the last jackass found out he was in way over his head. "Sellers goals have changed and desires immediate sale." There are tons of companies that could do the restoration, I'm affiliated with at least three that could pull it off, but for much less time and cost they'd just build their own from scratch based on the original plans. Helluva lot easier, and it'd actually hold up to the elements.
Would make a pretty good advertizing piece. Park that thing on the roof of your business and plenty of people would stop by just to take a gander (or people like BVD who'd love an opportunity to ridicule it for half an hour :lol).
Here's the listing: https://www.kikoauctions.com/?nav=auctions&details=2030
-
Nah, the original shuttlecraft is cool, and it's awesome that anyone had the foresight to save it. :tup I already had the listing open in a tab too. :blob:
https://galileorestoration.com
These guys are trying to raise the money to restore it themselves, and these guys could definitely do it properly. This includes some big Trek names (behind the scenes, that is). I think they left it a little late to raise the money in time though, and it hasn't been well advertised at this point. But this would be the best way to go with this. I dare to think of anyone else getting it, and it going through the same cycle again, and maybe not surviving this time.
-
If I were the type of nutjob who spent 100k+ on Star Trek stuff, I think I'd prefer one of the original ship models. Christies auctioned off plenty of them a few years ago. The Enterprise A visual effects model went for $240,000. $110,000 for DS9. Personally I think this was the coolest ($24,000).
(https://startrekpropcollector.com/trekauctions/imgsrv.pl?a18b14493bf7e96807beab7e3ffefd40)
Here's a link to the listings. All of the visual effects models were on the last two pages. https://startrekpropcollector.com/trekauctions/search.pl?t=model&st=1&sc=1&sp=1&sch=1&se=1&ss=1&so=1&p=8
-
A model of DS9's The Defiant would be cool.
Oh oh, or The Prometheus. But I'm pretty sure that was strictly CG.
-
I remember watching a special that showed the auctions. Surprisingly, the Enterprise D model went for double the price of the Enterprise A. Half a million dollars. :eek
Personally I'd love the Voyager model. Will likely never be ridiculously expensive either, since nobody else likes the show or especially the ship. :lol
I seriously do hope that one day I am that excessively rich to buy one of these models, if they were to ever get sold again.
-
As a ship I loved Voyager. The folding necells I thought were a great idea. It was very aesthetically pleasing.
-
Can I just point out that I love "Masks". One of the few episodes where Spiner's over the top acting works. And the idea of the two adversaries being the Sun and the Moon is great.
rumborak
-
Been a while since I've seen it, but I remember not particularly liking that one.
Today I watched TOS - The Cage, and Charlie X. Both pretty decent considering that they were such early episodes.
Once I watch The Menagerie, I'll have seen every single episode of Trek. It's unfortunate I left The Cage and The Menagerie till last, considering they're basically the same thing, plus I've already seen The Menagerie pt 2, but not pt 1. But the completist in me has to watch it in full.
-
Relieved that Simon Pegg has lashed out at all those " scoops " saying that Cumberbatch is Khan.
" It's not Khan. It just isn't . I'm annoyed by everyone saying it is. "
-
Can someone help identify this episode of TNG?
I had to be about three or four years old. I shared a bedroom with my mother at the time, and she frequently watched TNG late at night. I don't remember the episode in detail at all, and some of my recollections might be way off. I'm sure there were things going on in the episode that my young mind couldn't comprehend.
Anyway, it seems that the episode was focused on Commander Riker. Maybe he had some illness? Or he was going through something real weird. He kept experiencing very hellish episodes, and then would "awaken" back on the Enterprise. I remember this because it seems one of his "episodes" involved his or someone's face either melting or being disfigured or something of the like. I remember I started crying and my mom had to change the channel. Can anyone identify this and tell me how on or off my recollection is?
-
Frame of mind.
-
What about the face I remember? Seems like maybe on a dark planet and something was happening... a transformation or something? Or was that part of my memory just something that stands out that really wasn't significant.
-
I really liked the 7th season of Star Trek TNG. Each season was better than the last. Now the 7th season of Deep Space Nine. Oh yeah... that one... blew.
-
I just watched The Menagerie, and have now finished watching all 700+ live action episodes of Star Trek. :blob:
I expected The Menagerie pt 1 to be as much reused footage as what I recall of part 2, but luckily that was largely original material. Then I just skimmed the Cage footage from part 2, since I watched it yesterday.
The whole ending with stupid with the throwaway "oh we saw the footage too and we've decided it's ok that you went to Talos IV and we won't punish you even though it's for some reason punishable by DEATH despite the fact we have absolutely no clue why but would have happily enforced it." Ah the enlightenment of Starfleet in the 1960s.
And Kirk didn't even suspect that it may have also been a trick, despite the fact he'd just found out he had been duped the exact same way for the entire trip, even down to the admiral being a vision. What a dumbass.
Spock's actions also made no sense either, although they certainly proved that if a Vulcan wanted to, they could kick our ass 600 ways before we ever caught on.
-
Frame of mind.
Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me as well. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_Mind_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)) This was a good episode. It messed with the viewer just as Riker himself was being messed with in the episode, and the result was sometimes disturbing. Sometimes it's cool to not know what's real and what's illusion or hallucination (in a TV show or movie anyways) and fun to try and figure it out, along with the character(s) in the show. But when what you're seeing is threatening or otherwise unpleasant, and you're still not sure if it's real or not, then it can really make you uncomfortable.
This one was dark, about as dark as TNG got sometimes, and I can see it bothering a young child.
-
Has this been posted here yet?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/543335_3309010006010_1540595309_n.jpg)
-
What a sexy photo. It's like Sisko is just emanating latent badass to everyone else.
-
Shatner really needs to lose the weight. How many overweight guys survive their 80s? None that I can recall.
-
Wesley's farewell episode actually started out like they were onto something. The thing with the Indians was stupid, but having Wesley fall disillusioned with Starfleet was a dandy idea. Of course, the writers lacked the balls to actually make it worthwhile. If he'd developed ethical concerns about Starfleet, It'd have been great. Forcibly removing the Injuns would have been the perfect catalyst for his final withdrawal from the Federation. Instead, with 5 minutes left, that goofy-ass Traveller shows up and suddenly Wesley's some superhuman guy with spooky powers. WTF? Tack on an unrealistic compromise to save the Indians and the Federation's morality, and you complete another steaming pile of shit episode.
Speaking of which, the last episode with Alexander's dumb self was the latest unwatchable episode for me. Made it about 15 minutes in before abandoning it. The next one was alright.
Given the strength of writing in the middle seasons, despite being hamstrung by Roddenberry's fucked up premise, I'm amazed that this is the same group of people. They were writing some very good stuff, somewhat consistently. Next thing you know, they're cranking out one disaster after another. It's like Priest going from Screaming and Defenders to Turbo and Ram it Down. Who are these people?
-
The Ro Laren/Donnie Brasco episode was real good. Little formulaic, but good nonetheless. However, it wasn't exactly a very ballsy move to have her of all people go native. They had the opportunity to make Wesley worth a shit, and blew it. Doing the same with Laren just isn't the same.
Interestingly, it was Picard who fucked the whole thing up (from the Federation's point of view, not the episode). She tried to tell him she was losing her way with the thing, and his response was a threaten to end her career and court-martial her. WTF? It was out of character for him, and it was an idiot move from somebody who's normally portrayed as Godlike. He made the decision for her and has nobody to blame but himself.
-
Good stuff.
-
:rollin at the title change
-
Meh. The premise is wrong and the reference was a reach. The fact that it was applied to a post where I actually singled out an episode for being better than average doesn't help, either.
-
Meh. The premise is wrong and the reference was a reach. The fact that it was applied to a post where I actually singled out an episode for being better than average doesn't help, either.
Alright.
-
Ya have to break out your DSM for that one?
-
Ya have to break out your DSM for that one?
Poopy Head was a diagnosis in the DSM-III. It was changed in the current DSM-IV TR to "El Barto Syndrome".
-
While my recollection is that Voyager was the weakest of the three shows from that era, insofar as series premiers go Caretaker absolutely destroys Farpoint and Emissary. It took TNG and DS9 a while to get the characters where they wanted them, or at least less annoying. In Farpoint, they really didn't seem to have a clue where they were going with the characters at all. Caretaker pretty much starts up with the main cast doing exactly what they wanted with the roles. They're all pretty much how I remember them from the show's conclusion. Add to that, it was a pretty engaging story, unlike the other two. The end was weak, but that's often the case when they have to tie up all the loose ends in the last five minutes, but it was still a perfectly good episode. Hell, Neelix was even pretty funny (although I know how horribly that's going to go).
Interestingly, I knew that Kate Mulgrew was the second choice for Janeway, but I never investigated who their first one was. I read that she didn't like the schedule, they mutually parted ways and that was that. Turns out she was just an awful fit. I had no idea how close they came to blowing the whole thing. This was just horrible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SIZcDWKyw0). Not sure what they were thinking, but they might as well have hired Brando to play Kathryn Janeway.
-
I don't think you can say Voyager has an edge because the characters start off exactly where they end. To me that just means they had 0 development and 0 progress.
-
I'm not trying to say that it made Voyager a better show. I'm saying that Voyager's premier was much better than the other two series' premiers--big difference. Mainly because the characters were well thought out and well played. If you'd prefer, it might be better for me to say that the other premiers sucked big, scaly green turds because the characters were weird and annoying. Take your pick.
Regardless, for any show of any genre, the premier is usually a weak link. They're always trying to provide tons of back story while introducing people and also setting up what's yet to come, which they've rarely thought too far out. Voyager's was pretty good, which is a rarity. That Star Trek universe was already well established. There weren't any empaths, or androids, or Trill, or shapeshifters that needed explaining. It was people you could reasonably identify with in a situation that you could easily understand. Considering that they were actually taking Star Trek into a completely different territory (figuratively, not literally), I'd say they did pretty good.
-
Oh I agree that Caretaker was a good episode. Probably better than Farpoint or the DS9 one too.
In fact the initial episode of Voyager is one of the reasons the show didn't measure up. It introduced some REALLY great elements which were essentially ignored right after.
-
Interestingly, I knew that Kate Mulgrew was the second choice for Janeway, but I never investigated who their first one was. I read that she didn't like the schedule, they mutually parted ways and that was that. Turns out she was just an awful fit. I had no idea how close they came to blowing the whole thing. This was just horrible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SIZcDWKyw0). Not sure what they were thinking, but they might as well have hired Brando to play Kathryn Janeway.
I remember reading that Geneviève Bujold was the first choice, and was kinda bummed that she didn't get it. I'm old enough to remember her from "Anne of the Thousand Days" and she was pretty cute.
(https://www.cinereves.com/photos/GENEVIEVE%20BUJOLD%201.JPG)
But I'd lost track of the years and she was 53 in 1995 (when Voyager premiered) and holy shit, I didn't remember her being that bad of an actress. I think she must've been going for some kind of "quiet strength" or "forceful but soft-spoken" kind of thing, but she just came across tired and totally wooden.
-
Apparently she's a pretty good actress in general terms. The consensus seems to be that if Voyager had been a movie rather than a TV show she'd have done swell. She just wasn't cut out for this particular gig, and boy did it show.
In fact the initial episode of Voyager is one of the reasons the show didn't measure up. It introduced some REALLY great elements which were essentially ignored right after.
Watched the second episode, and it was good as well. They actually did work the federation/maquis tension quite a bit early on. I think the problem was that Chakotay sucked. Eventually he gets beaten down by Janeway and becomes just another lackey. I think that was the problem in general. It's not that they didn't want the tension, it's just that they didn't have the will or the ability to sustain it past the first season. Eventually they all become the big happy family.
In retrospect, Paris is the one that disappoints me the most in that regard. His character was in the best position to be the anti-Starfleet guy, and instead he was content to just be cocky and aloof, and only very mildly troublesome. Tores was the other problem. They spent their efforts working her Klingon side, rather than her Maquis side. I suppose originally they wanted Seska for that role, but then ditched her. Shame because Tores wasn't a very interesting Klingon.
-
I'm not going to lie, I think Emissary is a damn fantastic episode, pilot or not.
I just watched Caretaker again for the first time in... years. It was alright, though I remembered it being better. Some characters just fell flat almost immediately though. Chakotay, was he never not boring? Same for Paris, what a missed opportunity there. Say what you want about her later character developments, but Mulgrew was always engaging as Janeway.
-
So I'm trying to watch TNG from the very beginning; I've only seen a handful of episodes in my life. The show must have evolved a lot, as I don't care for it so far in the first season. The characters have no personality, there's no chemistry, and Picard's pretty much a dick.
-
The first season sucks. Seriously, there's maybe one episode that I consider worth watching and that's because that episode is so balls-out crazy that I'm surprised it even got made.
Season 2 is a mixed bag, but it has some very good episodes mixed in with the crap.
Season 3 is when it starts to get good.
-
What's the episode in season 1 that you consider worth watching? And do you think I'd be better off just starting from season 3?
-
So I'm trying to watch TNG from the very beginning; I've only seen a handful of episodes in my life. The show must have evolved a lot, as I don't care for it so far in the first season. The characters have no personality, there's no chemistry, and Picard's pretty much a dick.
Yeah, the characters aren't going to get much better. But a lot of the writing is pretty good, so it's worth watching all the way through. My experience was that the first half of the first season was pretty crappy, as they were still trying to figure out who the characters were. Then it's an even mix of awful, average and excellent for five and half seasons. Then the last season is pretty rotten; the writers had run out of ideas at that point and were just taking a piss.
-
"Conspiracy" is worth watching, not because I think it's necessarily good, but because of how unique it is in Trek's history. :lol
It's basically Trek doing a horror movie or trying to.
Actually, the last episode "The Neutral Zone" I remember being good too, but it's been a long time since I've watched it.
For season 2, I'd just watch a few select episodes:
"Q Who" and "The Measure of a Man" are my favorites and well worth watching, for different reasons. I wouldn't skip those.
I've always enjoyed "A Matter Of Honor," "Contagion," "Time Squared" and "Peak Performance" too.
-
RANKING THE PILOTS.
Emissary >>>>> Caretaker > Encounter at Farpoint >>>>>> Broken Bow
I was very impressed with DS9 from the start. The first episode was pretty good for a pilot, and kept me watching. Caretaker was alright, but was nothing special either. Encounter at Farpoint is dull, and it was painfully clear it was basically two episodes badly tacked together. Broken Bow was bad enough that I didn't even bother to watch any more episodes until years later when I was bored.
(I'm not going to rank whatever it is that counts from TOS, because the first half of S1 of TOS was dreadful, and I'd only be comparing it on humour value rather than legitimate watchability).
-
Apparently she's a pretty good actress in general terms. The consensus seems to be that if Voyager had been a movie rather than a TV show she'd have done swell. She just wasn't cut out for this particular gig, and boy did it show.
I think Mulgrew also sat between a rock and a hard place in terms of what to do with the character. Problem was that the writers tried to fold two things into one: A captain, and a ship counselor (she is a woman, we must explore her feelings!!). What it came across as what that there was a dictator mom holding the reins of a ship.
I really came to hate that face she would put on to show her sensitive side.
rumborak
-
(https://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/12/9/128733475913071935.jpg)
-
Egads!
-
"Conspiracy" is worth watching, not because I think it's necessarily good, but because of how unique it is in Trek's history. :lol
It's basically Trek doing a horror movie or trying to.
Actually, the last episode "The Neutral Zone" I remember being good too, but it's been a long time since I've watched it.
For season 2, I'd just watch a few select episodes:
"Q Who" and "The Measure of a Man" are my favorites and well worth watching, for different reasons. I wouldn't skip those.
I've always enjoyed "A Matter Of Honor," "Contagion," "Time Squared" and "Peak Performance" too.
Definitely "The Measure of a Man" - although that episode made me hate Pulaski, and it didn't help that her looks had really gone downhill since TOS :D.
-
Pulaski's opposition to Data always struck me as an attempt to reintroduce McCoy back into things. Problem was that while McCoy got away with being a technophobe by simply being an old git, Pulaski's statements almost came across as racist.
rumborak
-
RANKING THE PILOTS.
Emissary >>>>> Caretaker > Encounter at Farpoint >>>>>> Broken Bow
DS9 was obviously the better show, but Emissary wasn't good. The characters were weak and the story was too. The wormhole aliens were always dull in my opinion, and Jake's angst didn't help matters either.
TOS didn't have a premier, other than the pilot, WNMHGB, which was very good. Honestly, the first half of the season was pretty good, but you're interest in TOS is apparently pretty different from mine.
What's the episode in season 1 that you consider worth watching? And do you think I'd be better off just starting from season 3?
Like I said, the show's worth watching, and if you skip two seasons worth of [albeit limited] development, you won't appreciate the better parts as you should. Besides, if you start asking which episodes to watch and which to skip, you're going to get 20 different people all telling you what they like and don't like, which won't help you any. Just suffer through the bad ones and look forward to DS9.
Pulaski's opposition to Data always struck me as an attempt to reintroduce McCoy back into things. Problem was that while McCoy got away with being a technophobe by simply being an old git, Pulaski's statements almost came across as racist.
rumborak
I don't agree with that at all. She had every reason to assume that her POV was correct. Data was unique. That was kind of the whole point. She eventually came around to the realization that she was wrong. Good development for her, and for Data who really needed somebody to push his character. Before that, all the rest of them were just fawning over him. Pulaski made him prove his merit, which I think was important.
-
RANKING THE PILOTS.
Emissary >>>>> Caretaker > Encounter at Farpoint >>>>>> Broken Bow
DS9 was obviously the better show, but Emissary wasn't good. The characters were weak and the story was too. The wormhole aliens were always dull in my opinion, and Jake's angst didn't help matters either.
TOS didn't have a premier, other than the pilot, WNMHGB, which was very good. Honestly, the first half of the season was pretty good, but you're interest in TOS is apparently pretty different from mine.
WNMHGB was an average episode at best, as was most of S1 up until Balance of Terror onwards. After that, I'd say they were pretty consistently good for the rest of S1 and S2. And even though people consider S3 the weak one, I thought those were a lot of fun. I really don't see how the later ones were any worse than the ones before it.
And I was really impressed with Emissary. I'm not saying it was great, but it set up the show well, and there was nothing I disliked about it.
And it really has no competition for the pilots. The rest were all weak, and generally felt rushed together.
-
I agree about season 3 of TOS. Keep in mind that running them in proper order was unheard of when I was growing up watching them, so other than the addition of Chekov or Kirk's wraparound shirt, I couldn't really tell what was from when. Add to that the production order was very different than their running order.
What I do know in retrospect is that some of first episodes they did were among the more intense ones. While I never particularly cared for it, Mudd's Women was pretty intense, and it was (I think) their second episode). The Corbomite Maneuver, which I always loved, was third.
-
Those were both good ones too. Mudd's Women was produced 4th according to Memory Alpha. Corbomite was produced 3rd.
TOS is the one show I didn't see in any particular order, since there was zero continuity. I just watched them in whatever order I felt like, and I couldn't really tell what was what either. The secondary characters weren't always consistent in appearing, so even that never really meant much to me.
-
And I was really impressed with Emissary. I'm not saying it was great, but it set up the show well, and there was nothing I disliked about it.
And it really has no competition for the pilots. The rest were all weak, and generally felt rushed together.
I agree.
I also thought it did a pretty good job of establishing characters and set up some stories that would run the length of the show. It's probably the only ST pilot I'd watch primarily for entertainment purposes.
-
Can I use this thread to appreciate Galaxy Quest. Totally loved it as a spoof on ST.
rumborak
-
Can I use this thread to appreciate Galaxy Quest. Totally loved it as a spoof on ST.
rumborak
Tim Allen nailed Shatner. Also, Sigourny Weaver's boobs.
-
Galaxy Quest is great! I don't buy many movies, but I picked it up on DVD because I love it so much. I got home, and I already had it on DVD because I love it so much. I returned the new copy; I don't love it that much.
-
Galaxy Quest is great. You'd be surprised how many Trek fans seem to basically consider it a Trek movie. :lol
-
Never give up!
Never surrender!
-
Through six episodes I've been enjoying Voyager quite a bit. The weakest episode thus far has still been passable, which is a far cry from TNG. Even the one with the Phage was better than I recall.
Something that I didn't notice before is that there's a fair amount of humor in it, some of it pretty wry. I recall the Doctor being funny, but the writing itself is pretty funny as well. The idea of B'elana Tores trying to kill her Indian animal guide really cracked me up.
I'm still expecting them to screw the whole thing up, and they've already passed into the one big happy family phase, which is disappointing, but nevertheless it's still been entertaining.
-
Just accept the happy family thing, and the trip will go much smoother. :lol
I personally found season 1 to be enjoyable, but highly formulaic, then with season 2 they tried to break out of that mold and failed, especially with the Kazon. Season 3 is where the show really picks up for me, and is pretty solid from then on out, although there are of course some major clunkers.
-
Tim Allen nailed Shatner.
:omg:
-
Never give up!
Never surrender!
"They must be miners"
"Yeah, they look pretty young"
"Miners, not minors!"
"You lost me."
Also the scene right before that where the captain rolls from one corner to the next, and everyone behind him just leisurely walks along :lol
rumborak
-
Yeah, many laugh-out-loud scenes in that flick. Probably my favorite parody. It nails the vibe, never goes over the top, and never sinks to gutter humor. Perfectly cast, perfectly executed.
And just plain funny.
-
If it didn't involve so much makeup I would totally go as Dr. Lazarus for Halloween. "By Grabthar's Hammer ......... what a savings." :lol
rumborak
-
"IS THERE AIR?!?!? YOU DON'T KNOW!"
-
Watched Faces last night, the second episode with the Vedians. I can't think of anything Trek ever did that was even remotely as dark and disturbing. The Vedian doctor showing up with the crewman's face stapled over his own was pretty morbid, but then his thinking that he was more beautiful because of it really pushed it to a whole new level of creepiness. I thought the episode overall was disappointing, but it wasn't terrible and it was certainly an entirely different breed of animal from traditional Star Trek.
I'm blowing right through the first season, and enjoying it a whole lot more than I thought I would. I gather that season two is where they focused so much on the Kazon, who haven't really been around much thus far, so I'm expecting a huge drop off in quality. Still, it's certainly been better than I expected, and compared to TNG's first season, a massive improvement in writing.
-
Maybe I should try and do a rewatch of Voyager too.
It's been ages and a lot of my criticisms seem a bit hollow as a result.
-
I found season 2 to be a lot weaker than season 1. More of the Kazon, and just generally weaker stories. The Kazon get done with by the start of season 3, and the show improves dramatically from that point on.
I really liked the Vidiians. Much better than the Kazon, and I thought it was a neat idea to have a bad guy who was only after them for their own survival, and not just some lame reason like technology or weapons or whatever.
-
I really liked the Vidiians. Much better than the Kazon, and I thought it was a neat idea to have a bad guy who was only after them for their own survival, and not just some lame reason like technology or weapons or whatever.
That was part of Rodenberry's vision. Nobody in space was supposed to be evil. Bad guys had to have reasonable motives for being bad. Kind of weak, IMO. Still, the Vidiians were better motivated than most. A bad guy you're sympathetic to is always better than an ordinary asshole.
-
Yea, motivation is a pretty annoying feature to have.
-
Yeah, people should just be evil for the clothing, and so they can yell a lot.
-
Oh, for fuck's sake people. I'm only pointing out that not everybody has a valid reason for acting like a dick. So we're supposed to believe that there aren't any trolls in the future? I already said that I preferred people like the Viidians, who are halfway sympathetic despite being incredibly ruthless, but there's also a place for the mustache-twirling maniac.
-
Star Trek had tons of bad guys who were just lustful for blood and power. The Cardassians, The Klingons, The Romulans, The Borg, etc.
And while I like those guys, I find I prefer villains who are understandable and not just bad for the sake of being bad. Everyone has a motivation.
-
Watched Faces last night, the second episode with the Vedians. I can't think of anything Trek ever did that was even remotely as dark and disturbing. The Vedian doctor showing up with the crewman's face stapled over his own was pretty morbid, but then his thinking that he was more beautiful because of it really pushed it to a whole new level of creepiness. I thought the episode overall was disappointing, but it wasn't terrible and it was certainly an entirely different breed of animal from traditional Star Trek.
Wow, I'd forgotten about that episode, but you're right; it was pretty disturbing. Voyager seemed to really push the edges sometimes, and then the next week they'd play it completely safe and boring. Maybe you just have to accept that that happens when you have a huge team of writers. Sure, you'd like to have more consistency and continuity, but that's not always gonna happen.
I watched every episode of TNG and Voyager first run, and when the TNG episodes came around in reruns, I rewatched the ones I really liked. But when Voyager reruns show up (which is far less often), I generally don't even bother seeing which episode it is. I just remember that in general, the show was much weaker. Maybe that's not fair, but they did seem to have a lot of weaker episodes.
-
One of the darkest Star Trek episodes I can recall is Voyager - Friendship One. First off, there's the sad irony of a friendship probe being responsible for basically destroying a planet, and there was also a stillborn radiation baby. Enough said.
Sure, they saved the baby, and cleaned up the atmosphere for a slightly more optimistic ending, but it's a really dark episode.
-
One of the darkest Star Trek episodes I can recall is Voyager - Friendship One. First off, there's the sad irony of a friendship probe being responsible for basically destroying a planet, and there was also a stillborn radiation baby. Enough said.
Sure, they saved the baby, and cleaned up the atmosphere for a slightly more optimistic ending, but it's a really dark episode.
Dark? Sure. But darkest? Come on. The entire 3rd season of Enterprise and most of the last few seasons of DS9 are wayyyyy darker. Azati Prime and that DS9 episode with the whole "It's a faaaaake" thing are by far the darkest Trek episodes I can recall.
-
One of the darkest Star Trek episodes I can recall is Voyager - Friendship One. First off, there's the sad irony of a friendship probe being responsible for basically destroying a planet, and there was also a stillborn radiation baby. Enough said.
Sure, they saved the baby, and cleaned up the atmosphere for a slightly more optimistic ending, but it's a really dark episode.
Dark? Sure. But darkest? Come on. The entire 3rd season of Enterprise and most of the last few seasons of DS9 are wayyyyy darker. Azati Prime and that DS9 episode with the whole "It's a faaaaake" thing are by far the darkest Trek episodes I can recall.
I only said one of the darkest.
In The pale Moonlight was indeed a dark episode, but it was a a different kind of dark. It was more subtle and psychologically dark, whereas Friendship One was more visually disturbing. I'd say there are darker episodes, but not a lot darker. I don't personally recall anything from Enterprise being that dark, as much as I loved S3.
Having a radiation mutant woman give birth to a still born kid in a cave is pretty dark, come on. :lol
-
I'd say Archer intentionally killing civilians is darker.
But from a more horror angle, then yea I guess you'd be right.
-
Killing civilians? I don't remember that. Maybe it's time for a rewatch! (just of S3 though, of course)
Obviously dark can be taking many ways/directions here, as shown by our differing choices. In general Trek isn't really a dark show anyway.
-
Killing civilians? I don't remember that. Maybe it's time for a rewatch! (just of S3 though, of course)
Obviously dark can be taking many ways/directions here, as shown by our differing choices. In general Trek isn't really a dark show anyway.
Yea, it was when Enterprise was trying to stay off the Xindi radar by hiding behind a moon (not sure why that would work, but it seems to in every sci-fi show), and a small civilian populated moon base (scientists) spot them, so Archer orders them destroyed before they can report their location.
-
Killing civilians? I don't remember that. Maybe it's time for a rewatch! (just of S3 though, of course)
Obviously dark can be taking many ways/directions here, as shown by our differing choices. In general Trek isn't really a dark show anyway.
Yea, it was when Enterprise was trying to stay off the Xindi radar by hiding behind a moon (not sure why that would work, but it seems to in every sci-fi show), and a small civilian populated moon base (scientists) spot them, so Archer orders them destroyed before they can report their location.
I remember it now that you mention it. When you first said it, I was thinking he was gunning down civilians with a phaser in the streets. :lol
Now I really want to watch that season again. I like how it started off the season with this unseen enemy who just attacked Earth without provocation, then had so much development over the season.
-
Enterprise was such an awesome show with so much potential and it just started to pick up steam...
-
Man, it sure didn't take Voyager long to crash and burn. Started off quite well, but they didn't even make it out of the first season before things turned South. The aforementioned Viidian episode was passable, but not great (primarily it was the chick that play's Tores's fault as her full Klingon half was just weird and awkward). Then you get the Telaxian Hiroshima and Tuvok training the Maquis kids to close out the season, and picking right back up with Amelia Earhart. Yeesh. Each had a couple of amusing moments, but overall just lousy episodes.
-
Well, file this one under "things I really should have noticed": The characteristics for Kira Nerys are essentially the same as Ro Laren since they had planned to have Michelle Forbes in DS9, but she turned it down. So, they created Major Kira in order to cast a different person for it.
rumborak
-
We discussed that here a few weeks ago. I hated Kira and liked Ro, so I was disappointed in how it worked out. I believe it was Orbert who made a very good argument for Kira, though. She actually provided ties to Bajor, whereas Ro was more of a mercenary. Still, I always considered Kira the weak link on DS9.
Finally got to an episode of Voyager I couldn't get through. After a couple of these I'm actually starting to want the frickin Kazon to show back up. Silly though they are, they're still more entertaining that Kes going through puberty. [[shudders]]
-
Well, file this one under "things I really should have noticed": The characteristics for Kira Nerys are essentially the same as Ro Laren since they had planned to have Michelle Forbes in DS9, but she turned it down. So, they created Major Kira in order to cast a different person for it.
rumborak
I couldn't be happier they dodged that bullet. Kira's character developed in a direction I highly doubt Michelle Forbes could have managed. Ensign Ro was just constantly annoying deadpan angst.
Although I will say, Michelle Forbes got hotter with age. Never liked her in TNG at all.
-
Looks-wise? I thought in TNG she was already doing mighty fine.
rumborak
-
I agree about Kira. At first she was annoying but that character developed so well it's ridiculous. Come to think of it, many of the characters in DS9 ended up miles ahead from where they started in the first season or two.
-
Looks-wise? I thought in TNG she was already doing mighty fine.
rumborak
I agree. Part of the issue with Kira was that she was just unappealing. Ro had just as gruff a demeanor, but didn't look like Sgt. Hulka in the process.
-
Awesome "concert" shirt:
https://www.spreadshirt.com/-C3380A5492607
rumborak
-
Ok. Thoughts ?
Best / Worst Looking "Enterprise" ?
My vote for best goes to all 6 TOS movies Enterprise. Basically the Constitution II model. Great Design and Elegant too.
My Vote for worst goes to Enterprise - C from the TNG Episode : " Yesterday's Enterprise ". It looked like an obese Excelsior.
I also like Enterprise E as it's kind of a sleeker "A" and the 2009 Enterprise looked nice too. :)
-
Approximate order for me, although the top 3 is almost interchangeable-
E
A
D
1701
C
B (the B stands for bad)
-
Ha. I'd put C last. It looks like Enterprise B was fat.
-
The C looked like a kid's toy, but I have no major problem with it, and I'll give them lenience for the fact it was done on a rushed TV schedule. The Enterprise B has no excuse, and it's just downright hideous. I have managed to see the charm in every other Starfleet design, but not the B. And I've even grown to love the USS Voyager and the Defiant.
-
I loved the "All good things..." refurbished Enterprise D. That thing was badass:
(https://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090108225525/memoryalpha/en/images/0/0c/USS_Enterprise-D%2C_anti-time_future.jpg)
-
Looked cool, but according to their own canon it shouldn't have worked. One of the established rules was that warp nacelles had to be able to "See" each other. That's why they were all set above or below the hull. It's also why Voyager's nacelles rotated upward before going into warp (although I have no idea what the point of having them flat ever was, besides the obvious neato factor). The third warp engine would have added tons of extra power, but precluded the drive engines from actually working.
Edit: not nit-picking, mind you. Just one of those nifty factoid kind of things.
-
Looked cool, but according to their own canon it shouldn't have worked. One of the established rules was that warp nacelles had to be able to "See" each other. That's why they were all set above or below the hull. It's also why Voyager's nacelles rotated upward before going into warp (although I have no idea what the point of having them flat ever was, besides the obvious neato factor). The third warp engine would have added tons of extra power, but precluded the drive engines from actually working.
Edit: not nit-picking, mind you. Just one of those nifty factoid kind of things.
I think there was also a rule (at least during the TOS days) that warp engines should be in pairs?
It definitely broke some of their "rules", although as it was set in the future, I guess you could explain it away with some future advancement in warp technology. After all, they were going warp 13 in the thing, which also broke their own rules, and I'm guessing they were at least aware of these issues and decided they were fine to break them in this instance.
I'm not nit picking either btw. :lol It looks cool enough in that pic that I don't really care.
-
My guess would be that putting them in pairs was specifically for propulsion. The third engine in this case would be strictly for power generation. A lot of what you see in the Star Trek universe came about from Starfleet Battles, where they established a lot of the concepts that carried over into TNG. One of the basic rules was that there was never enough power to do all things simultaneously, so the primary business was always energy allocation. Sticking a third engine on there would resolve that problem.
But like you said, in this case they just didn't care.
If you're not familiar with it, you might pick up a copy of the original Star Trek: Starfleet Command PC game. It's based on Starfleet Battles and is actually pretty good for what it is.
-
I don't game, so I probably wouldn't get into it and enjoy it. I do have the TNG tech manual for that sort of stuff, although I don't think it covers anything that broad.
The warp engines themselves only generate the warp field, not generate the power. That comes from the warp core. I would guess that the warp core would need to be at least 50% more powerful to keep the power to each warp engine proportional, as it needs to go faster than it did with 2. They really didn't explain the tech, so I don't know how they figured it worked.
-
My favorite part was when the three-nacelled ship came up the Z-axis blasting right through the hull of the other ship. That was an awesome scene.
-
My favorite part was when the three-nacelled ship came up the Z-axis blasting right through the hull of the other ship. That was an awesome scene.
It really was. They rarely used 3 dimensional space in such an awesome way.
-
I don't game, so I probably wouldn't get into it and enjoy it. I do have the TNG tech manual for that sort of stuff, although I don't think it covers anything that broad.
The warp engines themselves only generate the warp field, not generate the power. That comes from the warp core. I would guess that the warp core would need to be at least 50% more powerful to keep the power to each warp engine proportional, as it needs to go faster than it did with 2. They really didn't explain the tech, so I don't know how they figured it worked.
I thought you were a gamer. My mistake.
As I recall, propulsion wasn't all that power intensive; well under 50%, and probably closer to 20. Shields would take as much energy as you could provide them, and there's never enough. Phasers were powered with capacitors, and the faster you could get those charged up, the faster you could fire again. Then you've got all the little stuff nickel-and-diming you. Like I said, there's no such thing as too much power.
As for starship porn, there are plenty of ships that I though were way cooler than any of the Enterprises. The D'deridex class Romulan ship was great design. As for the Federation, the Miranda class (Reliant) was as cool as they got.
-
I remember really liking the Prometheus from Voyager. Whatever class that was.
-
Prometheus class. It was the prototype.
I thought the whole separate into three pieces and attack simultaneously thing was cheesy. To video gamey.
-
Prometheus class. It was the prototype.
I thought the whole separate into three pieces and attack simultaneously thing was cheesy. To video gamey.
It's not *too* bad an idea in theory, although the logistics of it are a bit silly. It was a fun idea for a ship of the week though. Sorta reminds me of the Enterprise D splitting, which also seemed a bit pointless.
I really liked the Nova class ship from Voyager. A nice design without any gimmicks or strange configuration.
-
Pics would be helpful from now on.
-
(https://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081025004410/memoryalpha/en/images/4/47/USS_Equinox%2C_forward.jpg)
(https://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070316222402/memoryalpha/en/images/c/c1/NovaClassShields.jpg)
Does that work? That's the Nova class.
-
Small, but sexy.
Oh also, the Enterprise J looked like it might have been pretty awesome.
-
The arrowhead shape of the primary hull looks too far removed from other federation ships to me. If it weren't for the red/blue nacelles, it could belong to any race in the universe.
-
The arrowhead shape of the primary hull looks too far removed from other federation ships to me. If it weren't for the red/blue nacelles, it could belong to any race in the universe.
I disagree. A lot of those later ships had slightly different shapes, rather than just cheap kitbashes of the Enterprise (which were usually awful), but they still look Federation.
It still has a very architectural and precise look with the layout of the windows, the circular top (bridge?) section, and the phaser strips, plus the front deflector (other races didn't really have a deflector dish). And it still has the larger "saucer" style section, with the narrow and smaller secondary hull coming off it, with the two nacelles coming up and out.
I consider the arrow head its own distinctive touch on a layout that is very typical of Federation ships of the "period."
-
(https://www.smallartworks.ca/Gallery/EnterpriseA/Beauty2.JPG)
Easily my favourite design. Not just for Enterprise but any space ship from any show / movie.
-
Dunno, always thought the TOS ships were showing their 70s too much.
rumborak
-
Dunno, always thought the TOS ships were showing their 70s too much.
rumborak
Despite never having fire coming out of the engines :-P
-
Do you guys think there's a chance of a new Star Trek tv show after the 2 new movies are done? The first one was obscenely successful in terms of box office and critical acclaim, would it be a good time for a new one to start riding off of the hype and success of the reboot?
-
I would love there to be another one. Heck, I wouldn't even mind an alternate universe one based on the movies. I think enough time has also passed for returning to the TOS /TNG approach of visiting planets and encountering phenomena. They explored the darker aspects of space travel enough with DS9, VOY and ENT. It would be nice to inject that sense of wonder that the first two shows had.
rumborak
-
Just as long as nobody involved with TNG / DS9 / VOY or Enterprise is anywhere near it and it stars the movie cast??
-
I would love there to be another one. Heck, I wouldn't even mind an alternate universe one based on the movies. I think enough time has also passed for returning to the TOS /TNG approach of visiting planets and encountering phenomena. They explored the darker aspects of space travel enough with DS9, VOY and ENT. It would be nice to inject that sense of wonder that the first two shows had.
rumborak
Exactly. Which is why I'm so hyped about Space Command - I miss the wonder, the emotional human story, discovery and positive/hopeful portraying of the future even in dark times. Enterprise I think kind of did a good job mixing both worlds. At this point I don't care who stars in it or in which era it is written. I just want the magic of Star Trek back, damn it!
-
TBH _ I got tired of Star Trek TV Shows after Voyager. I wasn't a fan of DS9 and as Voyager was *so* hit and miss. I never even gave Enterprise a go and mostly stuck to TNG repeats.
-
That's a shame. DS9 was the best out of the post-TOS shows. Heck I think I like it more than TOS anyways.
-
I liked DS9 up until it was a one story show.
I can never be bothered watching serials. If you miss a couple - you have no idea whats going on.
A bit like LOST... But if you watch every episode.
-
There have been endless pitches to CBS for new series (many from big names), but they're just not interested right now. Whether it's because they're waiting for the movies to finish, and don't want to oversaturate again, or whether they're just not interested in trying a scifi series at all, I don't know.
I would love a new Trek series. Scifi is in a pitiful state right now thanks to SyFy. I don't see it happening any time soon though.
edit: And I'm currently rewatching S3 of Enterprise. Aside from a few earlier clunkers, this is easily the best of Enterprise. :tup
-
I would be a bit nervous for television to start up another Star Trek series. I was not impressed at all with the new movie. It didn't have the heart and soul the The Original series had and wanted to be more like a James Cameron action adventure Sci-Fi. I'm nervous that this will double over into a like-wise television series that will be a straight-up no holds barred Battlestar Galactica-ish sci-fi romp and less the heart and soul of what really made Star Trek a likable and engaging series. Granted I realize they have to contemporize the series in order to get the new generation to like thus they have to make it like other successful series like 24, or CSI:New York or Lost but Star Trek was good not because it had gloss, or fancy effects or action sequences that are like Mission Impossible, they were good because you had characters that were likable, fun and memorable. the only person I found somewhat memorable in the new movie was Spock. Everyone else seemed to be in the background doing what the plot needed them to do in order to give Jim and Spock their screen time all the while making Jim Kirk the most anatogistic "good guy" since Jack Sparrow. Ugh! One idea I had a while ago was to do a show called "Federation" that mirrored the formula of Rome just a little. That is it followed a set of characters there were maybe in the Federation or not, following a duo or trio for the most part and concentrated more on the aliens which is closer to what Gene's original vision for Star Trek (sans the sex and occasional sword through the jugular). I'll see the new Trek movie though. I liked the new one insofar as I had a good time watching it, but it really didn't feel like Star Trek at all. It's the same issue I have with the new Bond. I have fun, but this isn't the Bond I grew up with. It's a Bond I cannot connect with.
-
Most of the way through the second season and Voyager's holding up pretty well. There have certainly been some rotten apples (I'm tired of all the fucking Indian nonsense, and finding the spirit Gods holed up in the Delta quadrant was the rock bottom), but no more and no worse than TNG. Thus far it's lacked the highs that TNG would occasionally throw out there, but it didn't really get it's groove until the third season, so we'll see how Voyager goes.
As for the new universe TV series, I would expect it to suck. If they had the same cast playing the same crew, in an actual sci-fi environment, I'd be thrilled. I'd love to see these guys do a weekly series. However, most of them appear to be movie folk, and I suspect that a new series would be a new crew set in the alternate universe. Don't see any appeal to that. And since there's no real attachment to this thing thus far, outside of the existing ST familiarity, I suspect they'd still be relying on non-stop action sequences and reality-TV style film work. Not what I want to see.
Alas, I'm not sure what the future of ST on TV will be. I don't know if they can go back to the old universe, and I don't think the new universe will be worth a damn without the Enterprise crew.
-
Oh man, that Indian spirit episode was just terrible. :lol I remember seeing my friend watch that episode before I ever got into Star Trek, and just facepalming.
As for a new series, I don't think they'll see any sense in going with the original timeline, and unless they go post-Nemesis, they'll be completely boxed in like Enterprise largely was. And either way, there's just too much established for them to completely do their own thing like the new movie did, so I don't see it happening.
I think the most likely bet would be to go TNG/DS9/VOY era, but in the new timeline, and I even think a reboot of TNG would be one of the most likely/plausible options for them to go with to guarantee viewers (although I hope I'm wrong there).
With the current state of scifi on television though, I don't see anything really happening any time soon.
-
I don't see how they can do anything post-Nemesis given that you had so many writers churning out all this Trek canon without any formal checkpoints. No matter what you do, you are stepping into territory that might create conflicts, plot holes, or retreading old plots. Granted Voyager was an ingenious idea: completely different sector of the galaxy which is almost like having a blank check to churn out episodes. Enterprise seems like it was the worst thing you could do for a series. Completely boxed in with very little movement or else you create plot holes (which was never a problem for Star Trek anyways so what difference would it have made) however it seemed to fair well with the fans (for a while). The new universe gives us a lot of potential, but I have to ask, are people really interested in having Paramount just churn out a bunch of remake series ala TNG? For me, no. I would rather something different just based in the universe. Maybe someone could write a story that can be launched as a 5 year serial. I dunno. For me, I'm waiting to see what the next movie does.
-
I think the most likely bet would be to go TNG/DS9/VOY era, but in the new timeline, and I even think a reboot of TNG would be one of the most likely/plausible options for them to go with to guarantee viewers (although I hope I'm wrong there).
I had considered that. I don't think there's enough established with the new universe to launch something like that, though, and two more movies won't change that.
-
The cast from the new movie will never make a TV show, nor will they make more than 1-2 more movies. The original actors (though all had worked on many other things previously) BECAME their Star Trek roles. They weren't huge movie stars, so doing a ton of trek was a good career choice for them. The new cast are a new breed, they will commit to a trilogy...maybe if the money is good (and it will be), but that's it, they have other things to do.
A new Trek show faces a crap ton of problems. The new Trek movies aren't based around the characters really, or plots or anything like that, they're based around insane action sequences, huge special effects and lens flairs. A show based off of that would be horrible. So unless they just go in a totally new direction, and thus lose a huge portion of their fan-base, there won't be a new Trek show any time soon.
Hell there aren't really any space-set sci-fi shows at all anymore. No one wants to do that. People want to play it safe. Vampires, reality shows, comedy, sitcoms etc. The time for bold sci-fi has passed. How BSG managed to pull it off is beyond me, they were the pinnacle of how good Sci-Fi could be. But you see when other shows try that route like SGU, it ends up dying.
-
On side note about SGU - they took things too slow and most of that stuff could have been either skipped or cut in half with no real loss. When SGU had high moments they were really amazing and towards the end (second half of the last season) was just hit after hit, no misses at all. They just took the wrong approach - a slow development of the show, characters, plot, etc. Something all great sci-fi classics did. If TNG/DS9/Babylon 5/Voyager/SG1 were to be made anytime in the last 10 years I highly doubt that any of them would be renewed for a second season. Maybe 2 at most (probably for Babylon 5 because that started off quite strong relative to the others).
-
The cast from the new movie will never make a TV show, nor will they make more than 1-2 more movies. The original actors (though all had worked on many other things previously) BECAME their Star Trek roles. They weren't huge movie stars, so doing a ton of trek was a good career choice for them. The new cast are a new breed, they will commit to a trilogy...maybe if the money is good (and it will be), but that's it, they have other things to do.
A new Trek show faces a crap ton of problems. The new Trek movies aren't based around the characters really, or plots or anything like that, they're based around insane action sequences, huge special effects and lens flairs. A show based off of that would be horrible. So unless they just go in a totally new direction, and thus lose a huge portion of their fan-base, there won't be a new Trek show any time soon.
Hell there aren't really any space-set sci-fi shows at all anymore. No one wants to do that. People want to play it safe. Vampires, reality shows, comedy, sitcoms etc. The time for bold sci-fi has passed. How BSG managed to pull it off is beyond me, they were the pinnacle of how good Sci-Fi could be. But you see when other shows try that route like SGU, it ends up dying.
this is what is truly sad too. I mean growing up during the time of TNG, DS9, Babylon 5, Farscape, etc.. what a great time for Sci-fi! Can't wait for the reemergence of sci-fi interest again.
-
Hell there aren't really any space-set sci-fi shows at all anymore. No one wants to do that. People want to play it safe. Vampires, reality shows, comedy, sitcoms etc. The time for bold sci-fi has passed. How BSG managed to pull it off is beyond me, they were the pinnacle of how good Sci-Fi could be. But you see when other shows try that route like SGU, it ends up dying.
I have a feeling we will never see another space based scifi show on TV with real sets. The only way anybody is going to fund it, is if it's all green screen, and it's just not going to be the same. I just finished watching S3 of Enterprise, and boy those sets were impressive. Everything is actually connected on the set, so they could do these huge walkthroughs that gave such a sense of scope and scale that we likely won't see again.
I think the most likely bet would be to go TNG/DS9/VOY era, but in the new timeline, and I even think a reboot of TNG would be one of the most likely/plausible options for them to go with to guarantee viewers (although I hope I'm wrong there).
I had considered that. I don't think there's enough established with the new universe to launch something like that, though, and two more movies won't change that.
Would that really matter though? If anything, I'd think that would be a plus. I think they've effectively ruled out the original timeline by process of elimination, which basically leaves the movie continuity left. And it will confuse casual viewers who like the new movies to try and establish a whole new continuity through some convoluted process.
I could be wrong though. This is obviously baseless speculation on my part, and I'll be very interested to see how they proceed given how careful they've been about not jumping right back in to another Trek series after the success of the 2009 movie.
And I finally watched The Captains documentary last night. Avery Brooks is a fruitloop. :lol I couldn't help but wonder if he was completely high the entire time. Seriously.
-
The writer sounds like he knows his shit. I'm looking forward to the sequel even more now.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-trek-2-alex-kurtzman-kirk-people-like-us-342700
-
It's interesting to hear writers talk about their writing process but unfortunately thanks to people like Lucas and the other junk that gets churned out that people are spending money to see and make popular I have a very difficult time believing any writer can make a good movie until I see a few of his works. There are very few writers out there I have no question can make a good movie and Nolan is at the top of that list.
-
(https://i48.tinypic.com/2vvquc0.gif)
-
That interview already means bad news. The next movie will emphasize on the already contrived tension between Kirk and Spock in the last movie, with plot being a time filler. From what it sounded like the guy couldn't tell a scifi plot if it bit him in the ass.
rumborak
-
Speaking of Star Trek writers, what ever happened to Nicholas Myers? As far as I am concerned he was the best thing that ever happened to Star Trek and made the best three (two and half since he only wrote a part of Star Trek IV) Trek movies in existence (II, IV and VI). I feel Myers understood this world better than most of the writers, but moreso, he touched upon character traits in Star Trek II and VI that were fun and made the movies not just exciting but engaging. I mean I almost literally jumped out of my chair clapping when Spock fixed the warp drive.
-
That trilogy of Star Trek II-III-IV will likely never be touched. They were great, and Nicholas Myers was a big part of that. They seemed to find the right balance between character and plot, and how to translate TOS from the small screen to the big screen. In some ways, it's like ST:TMP was the "first album" and broke the ground, but you could feel them just finding their feet and figuring it all out. Then as with so many bands, the second album is where it really comes together and they have a great run for a while. Star Trek II-III-IV reminds me of that.
-
That interview already means bad news. The next movie will emphasize on the already contrived tension between Kirk and Spock in the last movie, with plot being a time filler.
How exactly did you infer that? I'm pretty sure they resolved most of the tension when Spock requested a position as First Officer.
-
Just the plain wording.
"Kirk Doesn't Understand What It Means to Be Captain"
"I can say the assumption that we did not want to make was that just because he’s in the chair and they’re on the bridge together that they’re the crew that you remember from the original series. They’re not -- the crew from the original series had gone on many, many journeys, they were a well-oiled machine in terms of how they function, and these characters are still figuring out who they are and who they are to each other. And I did not want to jump so far ahead that we missed a really important emotional connection to that transition for them."
I'm probably reading too much into it, but the last movie already suffered a bit from the over-emotionality of Kirk and Spock. Seems they will continue doing that.
rumborak
-
I'll try not to read too much into it for now. It would be nice to have some real character moments this time instead of most of the characters being relegated to little more than a one liner or two, but I don't want them wasting time on Spock/Uhura love thing or some other emo in-fighting. I'd like to see them try to create a good dynamic between Kirk/Spock/McCoy, and give the other characters a bit more to do, but I think they really need to focus on the actual plot and scifi factor first.
-
Just saw an instance in Voyager where the doctor was told they couldn't use the transporter because the shields were up. I was actually surprised to hear that. Not because it's news to me, it's been a Star Trek convention since the very first TOS episodes, but I honestly thought they'd done away with that given how often they ignore it in the 24th century. They use the transporters all the time with the shields raised. It's now very clear that the transporter/shield problem is only one used for plot purposes and can otherwise be ignored at will.
I'm actually disappointed to notice that. It really casts quite a pall on the writing.
So far, I haven't had any problem at all with season two of Voyager. There was one episode I didn't bother to watch because I remember hating it the first time around (the one with David St. Hubbins as the clown). Other than that it's all been mostly good. As stupid a premise as Tuvix was, it was actually a very good episode.
-
I don't recall them ignoring the transporter/shields rule, at least from my recent watch of DS9/VOY. And I can think of plenty of times they've enforced it, where they've had to risk dropping their shields during a battle to beam people up from the surface.
-
Unfortunately I can't think of any specific examples right now, since I've watched 9 seasons worth over the last couple of months. It all kinds of blurs together. I have seen it countless times, though. I'll be sure and note examples when I see them.
-
I love The Undiscovered Country as a movie, but damn some stuff makes zero sense. Why would Starfleet completely dismantle just because the Klingons screwed up?
-
Ah, just arrived at the most ridiculous scene of the movie. Kim Cattrall fires a phaser for demonstration of the alarm system, and Uhura and Scotty both come in seconds later, completely unarmed, asking "did somebody fire a phaser? ". I'm sorry, you walk into a potential armed situation completely unarmed and ask a stupid question?? ?
rumborak
-
Unfortunately I can't think of any specific examples right now, since I've watched 9 seasons worth over the last couple of months. It all kinds of blurs together. I have seen it countless times, though. I'll be sure and note examples when I see them.
I know the feeling. When I watch them, I watch several a day, so I'm not exactly taking notes either. I assume a lot of these are TNG, judging from your recent viewing? That was the first Trek I ever saw, so I can't remember details like that, because it would have meant nothing to me. But off the top of my head, I do remember numerous times in Voyager where they couldn't beam through the shields. It would be interesting to know if there were any that slipped past me.
Ah, just arrived at the most ridiculous scene of the movie. Kim Cattrall fires a phaser for demonstration of the alarm system, and Uhura and Scotty both come in seconds later, completely unarmed, asking "did somebody fire a phaser? ". I'm sorry, you walk into a potential armed situation completely unarmed and ask a stupid question?? ?
rumborak
:lol Now I almost wish it was a boarding party of Klingons or something. "Did somebody fire a ph....." *PEW PEW*
My biggest issue with that movie is actually Spock. I don't like him being too human, as it kind of takes away the charm for me. I much prefer him in TOS than in the movies, for the most part.
-
Star Trek 6 is easily the 2nd best TOS movie for me. Then 4.
-
ST 4 didn't age all that well for me. The 80s -ness off it plus the slapstick kinda takes away from it these days.
rumborak
-
2, 8, then 6 for me. I agree with 4 being very 80's . I watched it about a month ago and my wife yelled at me telling me, "This is terrible". I told her to enjoy the shlock.
-
Unfortunately I can't think of any specific examples right now, since I've watched 9 seasons worth over the last couple of months. It all kinds of blurs together. I have seen it countless times, though. I'll be sure and note examples when I see them.
I know the feeling. When I watch them, I watch several a day, so I'm not exactly taking notes either. I assume a lot of these are TNG, judging from your recent viewing? That was the first Trek I ever saw, so I can't remember details like that, because it would have meant nothing to me. But off the top of my head, I do remember numerous times in Voyager where they couldn't beam through the shields. It would be interesting to know if there were any that slipped past me.
I'm noticing it more in Voyager, where I've just finished the second season (much better than I was expecting). According to WikiP, Caretaker was an example of where they completely disregarded the shields/transporter rule. There are other examples mentioned where they just rattled off technobabble to make it alright (just as crappy, IMO). Rest assured I'll be looking for it, though.
My problem with Undiscovered Country was the Vulcan chick. Everything she did was completely unVulcan-like.
-
I give you that, yeah. Overall the Vulcans were not exactly vulcanic in that movie. But, that really holds for almost all TOS movies. Lieutenant Savik wasn't particularly Vulcan either.
rumborak
-
You beat me too it. Let's just say that females in all species are irrational.
-
ST4 is best viewed as Shatner giving one giant wink to the audience. It's fun and it's dated, like a lot of things from the 80's.
You beat me too it. Let's just say that females in all species are irrational.
:lol
Good thing this is a ST thread. No women are going to notice that comment.
-
I'm an old fart, and I've been a fan ever since I grew up watching ToS as a kid...and my all time #1 favorite ST movie. Is *INSURRECTION*. Can't understand why that movie gets so much flak. GREAT FREAKIN MOVIE!!!
My list (of the original canon):
1. Insurrection
2. Wrath of Khan
3. First Contact
4. The Undiscovered Country
5. The Voyage Home
6. Generations
7. The Search for Spock
8. The Motion Picture
9. The Final Frontier
10. Nemesis
If I had to include the reboot, I would put it 3rd (behind WoK and before FC)
-
Insurrection better than Wrath of Khan ? :o
I definitely think that Nemesis is better than Final Frontier though. Nemesis has good moments but FF doesn't really have any big memorable scenes.
-
While I wouldn't put Insurrection above TWOK, I definitely think it's an underrated movie, and not bad at all. It just didn't live up to the high standard set by FC.
And I'll take TFF over Nemesis any day. Nemesis has its moments that I really like, but as a movie I much prefer TFF. It's cheesy, it's stupid, and it's fun; exactly as TOS is, which is why I enjoy it.
-
ST4 is best viewed as Shatner giving one giant wink to the audience. It's fun and it's dated, like a lot of things from the 80's.
You beat me too it. Let's just say that females in all species are irrational.
:lol
Good thing this is a ST thread. No women are going to notice that comment.
And boom goes the dynamite! :lol My wife laughed when I told her what I typed. Also First Contact is light years better (Pun intended) than Insurrection.
-
I've probably done this before but here's my ranking as of this moment :
1.The Wrath Of Khan - Untouchable in my book
2.Star Trek ( 2009 ) - I absolutely adored this in the cinema.
3.The Undiscovered Country. Another great Meyer movie.
4.First Contact. The first great stand-alone TNG movie
5.The Voyage Home.
6.Generations. Also adored this at the cinema - really spectacular - great direction and score.
7.Insurrection. A fun movie but essentially a TNG episode stretched out to feature length.
8.The Motion Picture. Long winded but has a great idea and is slated for the same reasons that 2001 is praised.
9.Nemesis - Great moments but overall too much of a Khan wannabe.
10.The Search For Spock. Totally doesn't live up to Khan but is not without a certain charm.
11.Final Frontier. Cheesy and silly but easily the worst Trek so far.
-
Ok, I tried ranking these, but they're just too close for me to rank them, and on any given day I could change the order entirely, so instead I'll just go with "tiers". And even then, I had trouble separating them. Trek works infinitely better in a series, and I'm not a big fan of movies in general.
Excellent
First Contact - The high point of the TNG movies without much competition, and my favourite overall.
The Wrath Of Khan - Ricardo Montalban. Enough said.
Great
Star Trek XI - More plot holes and leaps of logic than I can count in one day, and most of the characters are used extremely poorly, but for a big, dumb action movie it's still a lot of fun.
The Voyage Home - Just the right amount of fun and social commentary, and every character has
their moment. Not a lot of scifi or action to it, but the culture shock element was done well.
The Undiscovered Country - A very good movie overall, and a great sendoff for the TOS cast, but the Vulcans but a damper on this movie for me, and very borderline drag it down to the next tier. I don't like Spock in it at all, and I don't like Kim Cattrall's crummy character either.
Decent/Enjoyable
Generations - Ignoring the plot hole of the Nexus, and the inclusion of the original cast, this is a pretty solid movie. Shame about the rest. The high points are great though.
Insurrection - While this was not a good follow up to FC, I think it's a solid movie. No real high points, but no low points for me either.
The Final Frontier - Yes, it's stupid. Yes, it's camp. And yes, Spock uses rocket boots to save Captain Kirk, who we're supposed to believe is free climbing a cliff just for fun. And we're only 5 minutes in. But it's the only TOS movie that comes close to capturing the dynamic and spirit of TOS imo. This movie brings me too much laughter to dislike.
Watchable
The Search For Spock - Not bad, but nothing really great either. And I can't take the Doc as a Klingon villian seriously at all.
Nemesis - Too many flaws to list, but it still has some really good scenes, and a good atmosphere to it. But every criticism of the movie is spot on.
The Motion Picture - It's not that it's necessarily bad, it's just insanely dull and drawn out, with no high points whatsoever, and I'd consider it the weakest Trek movie.
-
Ah, just arrived at the most ridiculous scene of the movie. Kim Cattrall fires a phaser for demonstration of the alarm system, and Uhura and Scotty both come in seconds later, completely unarmed, asking "did somebody fire a phaser? ". I'm sorry, you walk into a potential armed situation completely unarmed and ask a stupid question?? ?
That was rather dumb, but there are many many instances of Star Trek being "dumb". for example, let's beam down to a hostile situation with the captain, a councilor, Worf (the only one there who has specific training for this specific instance) and I can't remember the other person, but that makes four, including the captain? So, in the light of these ridiculous stupid things that keep happening in Star Trek, I can forgive scenes like the one above. ;)
My biggest issue with that movie is actually Spock. I don't like him being too human, as it kind of takes away the charm for me. I much prefer him in TOS than in the movies, for the most part.
Two things I can think of for this: Spock is half human and also Spock died and placed his essence in a human and for all we know this Spock is more human than the last thanks to those events. Actually I think they did a good job with expanding this problem in the TNG episode he appeared in where he is increasingly doing more and more illogical actions and arguing for them being the most logical.
I know the feeling. When I watch them, I watch several a day, so I'm not exactly taking notes either. I assume a lot of these are TNG, judging from your recent viewing? That was the first Trek I ever saw, so I can't remember details like that, because it would have meant nothing to me. But off the top of my head, I do remember numerous times in Voyager where they couldn't beam through the shields. It would be interesting to know if there were any that slipped past me.
Star Trek is known for completely disregarding rules and making up rules to fit a particular plot line. One instance I can think of which I think was a plot hole in Star Trek VI was with the boarding party who killed the Channcelor. There was an attack in progress so I can only think that shields were probably raised (I can't remember on the Klingon ship). It seemed to be standard procedure based on the rest of the series. So how did they get there if they can't beam with shields up? However this always bothered me. Star Trek has some awesome camera on the exterior of the ship that can zoom to like 1000000mm or something. But we never, ever have seen Star Trek show us surveillance cameras for "inside" the ship. Why does not this exist? Throughout ST:VI I was literally wondering, "Do you not have cameras in the transporter room?"
as for the movies overall for me
5 stars: II and VI
4 stars: III, IV
3 stars: First Contact, Insurrection, Nemesis, The Motion Picture, XI (All the of TNG movies had the same issues however I do think Nemesis got it right overall, but it was still a lackluster movie. XI was just dumb action at its finest and very far removed from Star Trek in general. Bad plot and awful characters ruin this movie for the most part for me.)
2 stars: Generations (booooooooooring)
1 star: V
-
My biggest issue with that movie is actually Spock. I don't like him being too human, as it kind of takes away the charm for me. I much prefer him in TOS than in the movies, for the most part.
Two things I can think of for this: Spock is half human and also Spock died and placed his essence in a human and for all we know this Spock is more human than the last thanks to those events. Actually I think did a good job with expanding this problem in the TNG episode he appeared in where he is increasingly doing more and more illogical actions and arguing for them being the most logical.
I agree that it made total sense after the events of The Search For Spock, but I still felt it made his character weaker. For me it removed a lot of his character traits and charm that made me like him, and made him too human.
Your comments about the surveillance camera reminded me of TOS - Court Martial, where they track down the man hiding on the ship using the most laughably convoluted process of some microphone that can hear heartbeats throughout the ship, and somehow tapping it against someone removes their heartbeat from the ambient noise (which makes zero sense no matter how you try and justify it), when earlier in the episode they actually showed that the Enterprise at least had cameras on the bridge (something I haven't seen repeated since), which basically proved Kirk guilty in the first place. It turns out the guy was hiding in engineering. If you were going to have a camera anywhere, that would probably be it.
It's amazing how many times they've had problems that could have been solved with simple surveillance cameras. The bridge of every starship must already have a camera for the view screen, and they have enough storage space on their computers to store everything else humanly imaginable, and yet they can't even match the basic security of a local gas station? And yet when they question the computer, it can track every single person on the ship at any moment. So many technologies that are way under-utilized, and wasted by pointless chains of command.
-
The thing that confused me about ST 6 = was they *knew* the assassins were from Enterprise.
How would proving that help Kirk and McCoy ?
Were the Klingons accusing the assassins of being Kirk and McCoy themselves ? I've seen that film so many times and never really understood that whole thing :P
-
So, June 23rd they're showing the remastered versions of two (I think) TNG episodes in select theaters. Totally going with some friends of mine, anybody else?
rumborak
-
So, June 23rd they're showing the remastered versions of two (I think) TNG episodes in select theaters. Totally going with some friends of mine, anybody else?
rumborak
Man of the People and Royale.
-
They could have picked two better episodes, but I guess those will do. ;)
-
I saw Where No Man Has Gone Before and Datalore mentioned somewhere actually.
rumborak
-
Wow. I was only joking, but those are just as bad.
-
I kinda figured you were, and I'm also surprised why they would choose such rather weak episodes.
rumborak
-
WNMHGB has lots of gee-whiz CGI effects and weird shit going on, so I can see why they'd choose it to demonstrate the remastering. The problem is that it still sucks as an episode. Both are also from the first season. It stands to reason that they might be some of the first ones completed, so they might have had few to choose from.
-
The thing that confused me about ST 6 = was they *knew* the assassins were from Enterprise.
How would proving that help Kirk and McCoy ?
Were the Klingons accusing the assassins of being Kirk and McCoy themselves ? I've seen that film so many times and never really understood that whole thing :P
It is a bit of a leap, but Spock figured that at least one of the conspirators had to be aboard the Enterprise as their torpedo databanks were altered. How he knew the assassins were from their ship, I don’t recall if there is any specific evidence for that.
I don’t think Spock had specific intentions of using evidence to get Kirk and McCoy off since it was largely a show trial. Remember he slipped that patch on Kirk’s back before they beamed on to the Klingon ship in the first place. I don’t think the Klingons accused Kirk and McCoy of being the assassins. I don’t recall the grounds on which Chang had them arrested, but I recall during the trial he stated how Kirk, as captain, was ultimately responsible for the actions of his crew. So in lieu of having the assassins, they charged and convicted them in order to give the Klingons their desired justice, and send a message to Starfleet.
Incidentally, Meyer talks somewhere about not being too concerned with strict accuracy, and even refers to one of his heroes, Conan Doyle, of being inconsistent at times. Of course that only works when your story is entertaining enough.
-
Ok, here's a discussion my roommate came to me with the other day:
Were the Klingons in TNG part of the Federation or not? Mind you, obviously they weren't part of Starfleet (and I tend to mentally conflate the two), but were they part of the Federation? Supposedly Wesley makes some off-the-cuff remark in the first season, something along the lines of "oh, that was before the Klingons joined the Federation", but after that I always got the impression that they were their own Empire, just with a peace treaty between the Federation and them.
rumborak
-
They're not listed as members, but are mentioned as possible members in the 26th century during an alternate timeline episode.
-
I was always under the impression the Klingons were *not* part of the Federation based on how they acted especially during diplomatic missions but the writers seemed to think they were a part of the Federation. The relationship was the most unique of all the other races in the Federation.
-
Klingons have a peace treaty with the federation (at least as of TNG) but are not members.
If Wesley said they are, there's 3 possible reasons for this.
1. Wesley misspoke.
2. The writers screwed up (SHOCKING!)
3. Wil Weaton is the Jar Jar Binx of the Star Trek universe.
I'd go with a mix of 2 and 3.
-
:lol
Whoever wrote it may not have been sure of the exact nature of it at the start, since for the most part, if you're a "friend" of Earth, you're part of the Federation. But it was generally much clearer in later series that they were not part of the Federation (such as in DS9 when they briefly became enemies again). There's no way the Klingons would have played by Federation rules.
And also, Will Weaton.
-
Wil Wheaton.
What a pretentious name.
-
Have you seen the Trek edition of The Weakest Link? I watched it on Youtube, and the host asks him why he spells his name with one "L". I can't remember what his answer was, but she says it's pretentious. :lol
-
Have you seen the Trek edition of The Weakest Link? I watched it on Youtube, and the host asks him why he spells his name with one "L". I can't remember what his answer was, but she says it's pretentious. :lol
I loved that, she destroyed him over and over. Also "This would be your "Q" to leave".
-
Wesley Crusher is the Jar Jar Binx of Star Trek, but Wil Wheaton is super cool.
-
Wesley Crusher is the Jar Jar Binx of Star Trek, but Wil Wheaton is super cool.
I wouldn't say super cool, but I saw the TNG reunion thing from a few months ago and he didn't come off as too much of a cock.
-
He seems reasonably cool. Considering the hand he was dealt, I'd say he turned out alright. Keep in mind that it's not entirely his fault that Wesley was such a horrible, horrible, character. The writing for him was terrible, and his job was basically to go through those awkward teenage years as part of a very public scripted program. He's a bright guy and he's managed to adopt a pretty good sense of humor about that whole unpleasant affair, so I won't hold Wesley's awfulness against him.
-
He seems reasonably cool. Considering the hand he was dealt, I'd say he turned out alright. Keep in mind that it's not entirely his fault that Wesley was such a horrible, horrible, character. The writing for him was terrible, and his job was basically to go through those awkward teenage years as part of a very public scripted program. He's a bright guy and he's managed to adopt a pretty good sense of humor about that whole unpleasant affair, so I won't hold Wesley's awfulness against him.
QFT :tup
-
Started watching DS9 for the first time last night. I was always put off watching it because I've enjoyed TNG and Voyager so much over the years and heard that DS9 was the worst of the lot. But one of my friends convinced me to watch it, plus I've been in a trek mood lately so I think it's the right time. Not sure how true this is, but IIRC my friend said that there is a bit of a mid show lull but it gets better towards the end and that's where I might have got the impression that it wasn't as good as the rest from.
-
I always hear from Trek fans that it's the best Trek series (and deservedly so imo), so you must be talking to the wrong people! :lol
I felt that it just continually got better if anything. A lot of people seem to think the last season is weak, and while I agree that it could have been stronger, I still thought it was quite good.
It's definitely different to other Trek series, with its own strengths and focus, but it's a must for any Trek fan. :tup
-
I always hear from Trek fans that it's the best Trek series (and deservedly so imo), so you must be talking to the wrong people! :lol
Yeah I'd heard that too on various sites online, just a few of my friends IRL seemed to disagree. I watched the first couple of episodes last night and really enjoyed them. I can feel a marathon coming on similar to my Voyager marathon, at one point I was watching around 13 episodes a day when I was free!
-
Your friends in real life are wrong. DS9 became the best ST show there was.
-
The only weak part of DS9 is Season 1. After that it reaches and exceeds the highs of other trek shows really fast.
-
The only weak part of DS9 is Season 1. After that it reaches and exceeds the highs of other trek shows really fast.
Season 1 has Duet though, which is one of their best episodes that isn't action based.
-
The biggest issue with DS9 is that it is so far removed from being Star trek it could have been its own series out right. Nevertheless, DS9 is a fantastic show that got better with each season until it jumped the shark with Season 7 ruining two of the most interesting characters. Granted there are good episodes but it is definitely the weakest link in my opinion. If you find yourself liking DS9 I highly recommend Babylon 5. Same kind of idea (space station/war/character study) but I think overall it succeeds where DS9 failed. However B5 even had the dreadful final season.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/Zm70Y.gif)
-
Wesley Crusher is the Jar Jar Binx of Star Trek, but Wil Wheaton is super cool.
I wouldn't say super cool, but I saw the TNG reunion thing from a few months ago and he didn't come off as too much of a cock.
Based on his blog (and now Facebook/G+ posts), I'm gonna stick with super cool.
-
In promotion for his new project Space Command, Marc Zicree is doing an AMA on reddit so I guess if you have any unanswered Star Trek/Babylon 5/Sliders/Twilight Zone/etc. questions, now's the time to ask xD
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/wcm59/i_am_a_scifi_writerproducerdirector_star_trek/
-
This thread contains too much discussion about the various TV shows for me to participate.
I have only seen TNG in it's entirety and bits of TOS. I started with DS9 until it became a serial and Voyager was entirely hit and miss and I never saw Enterprise :biggrin:
But my movie knowledge is great.
-
After watching them destroy yet another shuttlecraft on Voyager last night, I did some checking. It would appear that they went through at 17 of them. Didn't realize Voyager was a carrier class ship. While at it, I also found out that they fired a minimum of 93 of their 38 photon torpedoes, and probably more. Vulcans (and a lot of other crew members) came and went, depending on the plot necessity. Sometimes there were only two, and other times there were more.
Interestingly, they also appear to have spent a good chunk of their time in the beta quadrant. Didn't realize that since they never bothered mentioning it.
Not bitching about it, mind you. After three and a half seasons, it's still beating the living shit out of TNG. Just throwing out more instances of ST writers not paying attention to their own work.
-
Once again, the results of episodic television with a large stable of writers and a policy which doesn't exactly value continuity. For larger things, they try to get it right, but as you say, a lot of what they came up with was "depending on the plot necessity" and they didn't really care how much sense it made in the bigger picture.
-
Episode s3e19, Rise. In the middle of a raging space battle, they beam survivors off of some orbital platform just in time to retrieve detailed data on how to disable their attackers. The first words said when the survivors are beamed aboard are "shields down to 23%." Like I said before, being able or unable to use transporters through shields seems to be entirely based on plot necessity.
-
Episode s3e19, Rise. In the middle of a raging space battle, they beam survivors off of some orbital platform just in time to retrieve detailed data on how to disable their attackers. The first words said when the survivors are beamed aboard are "shields down to 23%." Like I said before, being able or unable to use transporters through shields seems to be entirely based on plot necessity.
This is a tough one, because they didn't even show the beam-out, and a significant chunk of time was clearly skipped over.
They said "we're a little busy right now, prepare to beam aboard", which would imply to me "hey, be ready to beam over, but we're actually kind of occupied in battle, so it will be a minute". Then it cuts to a shot of them on the bridge, and Tuvok is already back at his post with the data device. They were likely beamed to the transporter room (as is the usual protocol, and I didn't hear anyone on the lift tell them to do otherwise), and Tuvok wasn't with the rest of the beam-out group, which means they've skipped at least a bit of time here.
It may have been a plot hole, but it was also so awfully cut that it's not a given. The way it's cut makes it feel like a continuous scene, but the events say that it's not. The inbetween shot of the ship should be functioning as an establishing shot to skip over time given the events, except that it's an action shot which makes it feel instantaneous with the prior scene. It's a muddle.
I couldn't find any info on it on memory-alpha unfortunately, but I wonder if they made cuts here for time or budget that created the problem. They're in battle, and obviously shouldn't have had time to drop their shields, but it also wasn't shown on screen.
I know, I sound like such a Trekky, justifying something so it works. :lol I'm not saying you're wrong at all though. The events make it pretty clear that it would be very dangerous to drop the shields, and they could have waited until they disabled the weapons of the enemy ship before beaming the people over, yet they didn't. And dropping your shields mid battle is not something you can just assume well enough to cut it entirely. But there is at least *some* wiggle room here for argument.
I'll just have to agree with you that the episode had serious problems.
Also keep an eye out for how many times they do in fact uphold this rule correctly.
edit: Also, I'm not even going to bother trying to justify the shuttlecraft thing. They shouldn't have been able to pump out ships like that, and later on they pump one out mid episode in a couple of days. Bull. Shit. Your ship is not carrying industrial replicators, and you can't pull a warp core out of your ass.
-
I agree that this was a somewhat ambiguous one. However, these seem to happen a helluva lot more often than hearing "we can't beam you out right now, we have to keep the shields up." What I can tell you is that when I heard them say that a couple of weeks ago, it actually surprised me to hear it.
What they will do occasionally is throw out some technobabble to legitimize the thing. My hunch is that they got so used to being able to make up bullshit explanations for not having to deal with the shields/transporter thing that they just started taking it for granted. It could easily be inferred that during that bad edit, they attempted some insane, never tried before, stunt that allowed them to beam through the shields.
Still, I think the whole thing is little more than a plot device now.
-
Everything in Star Trek is ultimately a plot device. Despite all of the technobabble, in the end it's a means to an end to tell whatever that story is, and if the story dictates that they can or can't beam them out, there's always a way to explain it.
I also hope you didn't forget 2x25 - Resolutions, where they actually did have to drop their shields mid-battle to beam over some medicine.
Definitely keep up to date mentioning the errors as you find them so we can discuss them, because I speak fluent technobabble, and enjoy a challenge. :lol
-
Not sure, but Resolutions is probably the one I was referring to that surprised me to hear that. Would that have been the one where the one friendly Vidian just happened to know the antidote to the insect bite that had Janeway and Chakotey marooned somewhere?
-
Yes, that would be the one.
-
The biggest issue with DS9 is that it is so far removed from being Star trek it could have been its own series out right. Nevertheless, DS9 is a fantastic show that got better with each season until it jumped the shark with Season 7 ruining two of the most interesting characters. Granted there are good episodes but it is definitely the weakest link in my opinion. If you find yourself liking DS9 I highly recommend Babylon 5. Same kind of idea (space station/war/character study) but I think overall it succeeds where DS9 failed. However B5 even had the dreadful final season.
I agree with the B5 assesment, I enjoyed B5 a lot more than DS9. DS9 got better in the last 2-3 seasons, other than that, I didn't care for it as much as TNG, Voyager and even Enterprise.
-
Everything in Star Trek is ultimately a plot device. Despite all of the technobabble, in the end it's a means to an end to tell whatever that story is, and if the story dictates that they can or can't beam them out, there's always a way to explain it.
I also hope you didn't forget 2x25 - Resolutions, where they actually did have to drop their shields mid-battle to beam over some medicine.
Definitely keep up to date mentioning the errors as you find them so we can discuss them, because I speak fluent technobabble, and enjoy a challenge. :lol
That would be the very next episode (Favorite Son), where they beam Kim away from the Amazon bitches under equally questionable circumstances. They specifically needed the shields up to get through the planetary defense screen, came under attack as soon as they got through, and were under fire when he showed back up.
-
I'll ignore the bit about the defense screen, since they'd already punched through and could have dropped them safely by that point, but they got hit by a weapon literally the second they'd beamed Harry up from the surface, so they couldn't have snuck shields back up. That one would be a definite flub.
-
So I had to stop watching ToS in the 3rd season because I just seriously couldn't bare it any more, and skipped right over to the movies.
First was pretty good, not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
Khan is just an incredible movie, despite its flaws.
I actually really liked Search for Spock, The Vulcan girl banging preteen spock was a bit odd, but whatever.
Voyage home is classic. I don't see it's 80'sness as a drawback. It was filmed in the 80's and largely takes place in the 80's....what do you expect it to be like?
Final Frontier isn't....horrible, but it mostly is. The part where McCoy faces his fear is quite good as is much of the messages in that scene. However the whole god thing was just awful.
And finally The Undiscovered Country is just great. Also, for the people complaining about that Vulcan chick not acting very Vulcan like, I read it was originally in the script that she was supposed to be half Vulcan and half Romulan, which makes more sense. But yea, just a terrific movie despite its flaws.
So then I started my TNG rewatch...........eh, strong desire to skip a bunch of the first season stuff but I'm not. I'm on Justice now which is just...so bad. Just....so horribly bad. I think what makes the first season so terrible (at least until I get to the 2nd season) is that they're reallllllllly trying to be like ToS and taking with them every thing that made that show bad and nothing that made it good. Luckily (unlike some of us) I love the characters (minus Wesley) so I can tolerate the horribleness a bit more.
-
I never got why people automatically shit all over the third TOS season. The dogs are a bit worse than the other two, but there are still plenty of good episodes in it, and a few great ones.
-
I didn't find the third season to really be any worse than the rest overall. It had classics, and plenty of hilariously bad stuff, just like the other two seasons. Season 2 was definitely the stronger of all the seasons though.
And I also don't know why Spock's Brain gets singled out as "the" bad episode either. Nothing about it stood out compared to the rest to me. There are definitely worse episodes, and without the fun factor to redeem them that Spock's Brain had.
-
I never got why people automatically shit all over the third TOS season. The dogs are a bit worse than the other two, but there are still plenty of good episodes in it, and a few great ones.
I'm not saying it was worse, I'm saying that by the time I got to it, after a few episodes I just found myself having to force myself to sit through an episode. After that I found myself avoiding it at all costs.
-
Watched "Duet" yesterday. What a great episode, despite knowing (upon rewatching) what the deal is with the guy. And even more so despite Nana Visitor just coming across as a nagging bitch (her character in the first season is terrible IMHO). The whole episode was really carried by the plot and Harris Yulin's performance.
rumborak
-
Watched "Duet" yesterday. What a great episode, despite knowing (upon rewatching) what the deal is with the guy. And even more so despite Nana Visitor just coming across as a nagging bitch (her character in the first season is terrible IMHO). The whole episode was really carried by the plot and Harris Yulin's performance.
rumborak
He's just a fascinating character. I actually wrote a trauma case conceptualization paper based on his character for his extremely unique reaction to the trauma he experienced, which in and of itself was unique.
-
You got away with that? :lol
I mean, after all it's a fictional response to trauma.
rumborak
-
The only thing I didn't like so much in the episode was the very end of it. It seemed weird that a guy who made himself look like a well-known war hero would suddenly not mind going back to Cardassia, where he would clearly have to live through hell. A better way (but probably too dark to Star Trek) would have been either suicide, or some last-ditched attempt to at least make some of the mark he wanted to make.
rumborak
-
You got away with that? :lol
I mean, after all it's a fictional response to trauma.
rumborak
Yes, but as we couldn't practice at the time, we were told to choose fictional characters. His response to trauma wasn't the point, it was how we were able to conceptualize it, prepare for a treatment plan etc etc. We didn't have real people to choose from.
-
And finally The Undiscovered Country is just great. Also, for the people complaining about that Vulcan chick not acting very Vulcan like, I read it was originally in the script that she was supposed to be half Vulcan and half Romulan, which makes more sense. But yea, just a terrific movie despite its flaws.
Originally, it was supposed to be Saavik:
Initially, the character of Saavik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saavik), who appeared in the second through fourth Star Trek films, was intended to be the traitor, but Gene Roddenberry objected to making a character loved by fans into a villain. Cattrall was unwilling to be the third actress to play Saavik (a part she had originally auditioned for), but accepted the role when she became a different character.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_VI:_The_Undiscovered_Country#cite_note-okuda-10)
-
Good call by Catrall. It was already weird enough to have two different Saaviks.
rumborak
-
Hey look at me, back in this thread with positive things to say.....I'm sure it won't be met with as much.
Anywho, I've noticed that the first 2 seasons of TNG have a lot of great ideas that are just poorly executed. The episode about the 2 planets, one with a drug dependency and the other who supplies the drugs is really a great idea. The problem is that it's from the POV of the Enterprise and the 3rd party. It became an afterschool special which was lame, but before that the idea was great. A whole planet completely addicted to a drug, who's sole purpose is to provide everything they can to the other other planet who no longer does anything other than make the drug. Would have been nice to see a more modern dark take on that.
Also, not hating Wesley as much this time around. He's not a great actor, and they didn't give him a lot to work with but you can tell he's really trying.
Also, on the episode now Measure of a Man. Really a fantastic episode with good writing (thus far at least), good acting and realistic responses. Good stuff.
I also read that that alien conspiracy episode wasn't originally meant to involve any aliens and was instead a military coupe idea, which Gene objected to. However I would have liked that a lot more. The aliens made it a bit cliche, but the idea of Picard having to take sides in a coupe would have been a great character study.
-
Hey look at me, back in this thread with positive things to say.....I'm sure it won't be met with as much.
Anywho, I've noticed that the first 2 seasons of TNG have a lot of great ideas that are just poorly executed. The episode about the 2 planets, one with a drug dependency and the other who supplies the drugs is really a great idea. The problem is that it's from the POV of the Enterprise and the 3rd party. It became an afterschool special which was lame, but before that the idea was great. A whole planet completely addicted to a drug, who's sole purpose is to provide everything they can to the other other planet who no longer does anything other than make the drug. Would have been nice to see a more modern dark take on that.
I believe I made that exact point. I'm sure it was received poorly. :lol Tasha's sermon on the horrors of drug use was one of the most painful moments of the entire series.
My problem was always Wesley's role on the series as the token child, rather than Wesley himself. He was there to serve as a plot device for all the things I hated about the show. He could have been just another crew-member who happened to be 14 and he wouldn't have bothered me at all.
-
I think what bothers me most about the Wesley character is that the adults (as he constantly calls them) ignore him for absolutely no reason all the time to the point of being completely irrational.
"Sir, I am pretty sure Lore is impersonating data"
"Sit down boy! You will talk to Data with respect!"
Is that what you meant?
-
I think what bothers me most about the Wesley character is that the adults (as he constantly calls them) ignore him for absolutely no reason all the time to the point of being completely irrational.
"Sir, I am pretty sure Lore is impersonating data"
"Sit down boy! You will talk to Data with respect!"
Is that what you meant?
Indirectly, I suppose that's part of it. They always wrote things so that he's the one that always figures it out/solves the problem/saves the ship. He just seemed like another example of the writers need to constantly portray all of those people as smugly superior to all of us. Even the twelve year olds are brilliant, well behaved, and always eager to be a good team player.
-
Indirectly, I suppose that's part of it. They always wrote things so that he's the one that always figures it out/solves the problem/saves the ship. He just seemed like another example of the writers need to constantly portray all of those people as smugly superior to all of us. Even the twelve year olds are brilliant, well behaved, and always eager to be a good team player.
Agreed.
From The Nitpicker's Guide for Next Generation Trekkers, Vol II:
"Given that the Enterprise is filled with Starfleet's best and brightest crew members. the number of times Wesley, who has trouble getting into the Starfleet Academy, comes up with the needed solution: seven"
Even given this though, there are a few decent Wesley episodes. I quite like The First Duty.
-
TNG isn't the only ST show to depict the random crew members as idiots.
Actually every ST show depicts the crew members as idiots. In TOS they were all idiots who wanted to fight and kill everyone, and in TNG they were idiots who were scared of everything. In Voyager they didn't matter and in DS9 they seemed to lack the ability to contain any problem what so ever.
There's always one guy who solves the problem, it was usually Data, LaForge, or something, but sometimes it was Wesley.
And there are kid geniuses alive and well today Bart. Having a smart kid isn't a sense of smug superiority. In fact I think it says way more about you than it does them that you interpret the cast of TNG to be displaying a smug sense of superiority anytime they do anything differently than modern americans.
-
Of course there are kid geniuses, and I have no problem with them. I have no problem with Wesley's genius. I do have a problem with crappy writers concocting instances for him to be the hero of the day, just to show off what a genius he is. Part of it comes from Roddenberry's vision of the future, which I find far too milquetoast, and part of it is just that they're crappy writers, particularly when it comes to writing about kids.
I'll point out that I don't really have any problem with the crews from TOS, DS9, and Voyager. None of them were created by GR. I'll also point out that if you and I were to list our top 10 TNG episodes, there'd probably be a lot of similarity, and I bet none of them involve Wesley doing anything other than pressing a button and saying aye-aye, Sir.
As for how it reflects on me, it doesn't, anymore than it would if I said The Stepford Wives seem a little creepy to me. The crew of TNG are idealized versions of people, and as such, sort of weird. The fact that they're not my kind of people is only part of the equation.
And if we're going to start analyzing each other over our respective stances on Star Trek, I'll point out that you're awfully defensive about this, especially since you asked me for my opinion on the matter (which somewhat ironically was pretty much the same as yours).
-
And finally The Undiscovered Country is just great. Also, for the people complaining about that Vulcan chick not acting very Vulcan like, I read it was originally in the script that she was supposed to be half Vulcan and half Romulan, which makes more sense. But yea, just a terrific movie despite its flaws.
Originally, it was supposed to be Saavik:
Initially, the character of Saavik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saavik), who appeared in the second through fourth Star Trek films, was intended to be the traitor, but Gene Roddenberry objected to making a character loved by fans into a villain. Cattrall was unwilling to be the third actress to play Saavik (a part she had originally auditioned for), but accepted the role when she became a different character.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_VI:_The_Undiscovered_Country#cite_note-okuda-10)
Actually, it's both. The traitor was originally supposed to be Saavik, and Saavik is half Vulcan, half Romulan. That's part of her backstory that they never figured out a way to work into the final script. Yeah, they could have included some throwaway line where David mentions it or something, but to introduce that and then never follow up on it or do anything with it would've been lame. So they just never used it.
-
Makes me also wonder what happened to Spock's half vulcan, quarter human, quarter romulan baby.
-
I was just thinking about that. That was one of the ideas that got tossed around when they were trying to come up with another TOS movie, that neo-Spock knocked up Saavik when she got him through his Pon Farr on the Genesis planet. But they'd already done the Son of Kirk thing, so to do the Son of Spock thing next would've been seriously lame, and I'm glad they didn't go through with it.
-
I was just thinking about that. That was one of the ideas that got tossed around when they were trying to come up with another TOS movie, that neo-Spock knocked up Saavik when she got him through his Pon Farr on the Genesis planet. But they'd already done the Son of Kirk thing, so to do the Son of Spock thing next would've been seriously lame, and I'm glad they didn't go through with it.
I agree.
-
I don't have much to add except that Kirstie Alley was really cute back then.
-
I don't remember any of the vulcan women being good actresses. By that I mean to two Saaviks and the Sex and the City girl.
-
Regarding making crew members look like idiots, it strikes me that that was how they wrote a lot of their stuff. They would introduce a character who is specifically good at X, but then spend most of the episodes showing their failure to do so. Happened with Worf who gets beaten all the time, happened with superior android Data who is mostly suffering from his Pinocchio complex...
rumborak
-
Now that I have seen Prometheus 3 times - i don't know what I'm looking forward to more...
A Prometheus or Star Trek sequel.
-
So I'm nearing the end of season 2 of TNG.
Some REALLY bad episodes this season, which is shame since it's the only season with Dr. Pulaski.
Even though Pulaski is essentially Ms. McCoy, and I do like Beverly, I really wish Pulaski would have stayed on longer. She brought with her a very interesting personality and dynamic that the show needed and never got again.
I loved her first convo with Data where she mispronounces his name and doesn't understand why he cares.
-
Yeah, that's one of the things I think about when I think about Dr. Pulaski. Her pronunciation of the word "data" and her simply not giving it much thought because it's just a word, and some people pronounce it that way. But Data says "One is my name; the other is not."
TNG was on the air when I was teaching high school, and one of the things they taught us in teacher school is the importance of pronouncing students' names correctly. This is their identity, this is the most personal thing they have. Their friends, family, and others who care about them will pronounce their names correctly. I made it a point to learn the correct way to pronounce every student's name, or if they had a nickname that they preferred, I used it. This was challenging sometimes, as there were a lot of minorities and a wide ethnic student base in general, and grew up in a white middle-class neighborhood. But I remember a Vietnamese student who was absolutely thrilled that I said her name correctly on the first day when I took roll (Vietnamese and Chinese are very similar, and have certain consonants that Western tongues simply don't use).
Anyway, when that TNG episode came on and Dr. Pulaski was so nonchalant about Data's name, I wanted to smack her. But as anyone could predict, by the end of the episode she has come to regard Data not as a machine, but as a person worthy of a name and not just a word assigned to him. And if you give a damn, you pronounce someone's name correctly.
-
Indirectly, I suppose that's part of it. They always wrote things so that he's the one that always figures it out/solves the problem/saves the ship. He just seemed like another example of the writers need to constantly portray all of those people as smugly superior to all of us. Even the twelve year olds are brilliant, well behaved, and always eager to be a good team player.
Agreed.
From The Nitpicker's Guide for Next Generation Trekkers, Vol II:
"Given that the Enterprise is filled with Starfleet's best and brightest crew members. the number of times Wesley, who has trouble getting into the Starfleet Academy, comes up with the needed solution: seven"
Even given this though, there are a few decent Wesley episodes. I quite like The First Duty.
I may have posted this before, but, just in case. . .
There was originally supposed to be one "Wesley saves the day" episode. The writers were tasked with coming up with several scripts, with the intention of making only the best one. But, then there was a writers' strike. So, they ended up making all of them.
-
So I'm nearing the end of season 2 of TNG.
Some REALLY bad episodes this season, which is shame since it's the only season with Dr. Pulaski.
Even though Pulaski is essentially Ms. McCoy, and I do like Beverly, I really wish Pulaski would have stayed on longer. She brought with her a very interesting personality and dynamic that the show needed and never got again.
I loved her first convo with Data where she mispronounces his name and doesn't understand why he cares.
For someone who disagrees with me so often, you sure seem to agree with me a lot. :lol
I thought season two was mostly par for the course. There are certainly some dogs in there, but a handful of very good episodes, as well. Measure of a Man and Contagium stand out. It also lays the groundwork for the whole Klingon arc, which was probably the best thing they did.
-
Just watched Nemisis (the Voyager episode, not the crappy movie). For the first 37 minutes is was great, and then they absolutely shit all over it with a terrible, contrived ending. I hate when they do that. It was heading towards a good, dark and ambiguous ending, much like DS9 would have done. It would have been fine commentary on one of those senseless wars which have evolved into nothing more than racial hatred, rather than legitimate disagreements or objectives. Alas, they didn't have the cojones to follow through with it, and tacked on a throwaway ending that left it completely trivialized. Bad show.
-
Just watched Nemisis (the Voyager episode, not the crappy movie). For the first 37 minutes is was great, and then they absolutely shit all over it with a terrible, contrived ending. I hate when they do that. It was heading towards a good, dark and ambiguous ending, much like DS9 would have done. It would have been fine commentary on one of those senseless wars which have evolved into nothing more than racial hatred, rather than legitimate disagreements or objectives. Alas, they didn't have the cojones to follow through with it, and tacked on a throwaway ending that left it completely trivialized. Bad show.
Which one was Nemesis?
-
Chakotay crashed (yet another shuttlecraft) and got wrapped up in a Vietnam style conflict with an enemy known as "the Beast." For the first 30 minutes he fought beside them and saw how horrible and soulless the enemy was. In the mean time, Voyager was looking for him with the assistance of the good guys. Thirty minutes into the episode they beam the good-guy ambassador aboard and we, the viewer, see that he's one of Chakotay's beasts. Both sides are enjoyable and peaceful people under attack by vicious bastards. Rather than having a confrontation with Chakotay and Voyager at the end over which side was evil, they had the whole thing turn out to be in Chakotay's mind after being brainwashed. Terrible.
-
Oh yea I remember that one.
Although the idea of how they brainwashed him was pretty interesting.
-
I didn't mind that episode.
It could have been worse. At least it didn't end with Chakotay finding that the enemy side had the US constitution and American flag in their camp, and thus must have been the good guys all along....
-
Oh yea I remember that one.
Although the idea of how they brainwashed him was pretty interesting.
I agree, but it was wasted here. They could have done a different episode with such a story. They vested so much interest in the perspectives of the warring peoples, and then just threw it away with a cheap sci-fi story ending.
I didn't mind that episode.
It could have been worse. At least it didn't end with Chakotay finding that the enemy side had the US constitution and American flag in their camp, and thus must have been the good guys all along....
I don't like wasted potential. When they beamed the ambassador aboard, it suddenly had the potential to be a great episode. Until that point, I thought it was somewhat predictable. They wasted that because they didn't want to do something dark.
-
^^ Pfft. What kind of show would have such a terrible ending to an episode?
rumborak
-
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/olympicsvideo/9421305/London-2012-Sir-Patrick-Stewart-carries-Olympic-torch-in-Croydon.html
(https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/resources/images/2093137/)
-
He's so cool.
-
So I was thinking, who are the essential characters of different races?
For instance, I feel Serak is the essential Vulcan. He displays everything that makes a Vulcan a Vulcan and does so perfectly.
Also I'd say that Martok was the essential Klingon.
Can you guys add some more?
-
He's so cool. And one of the few actors from TNG who doesn't hate the show.
He shouldn't, he did a fantastic job!!! ;D
-
He's so cool. And one of the few actors from TNG who doesn't hate the show.
He shouldn't, he did a fantastic job!!! ;D
I edited my post because I remember now that it's mostly just Brent Spiner who hated the show. Gates didn't seem to like it much either, but for the most part the others seem to like it.
-
So I was thinking, who are the essential characters of different races?
For instance, I feel Serak is the essential Vulcan. He displays everything that makes a Vulcan a Vulcan and does so perfectly.
Also I'd say that Martok was the essential Klingon.
Can you guys add some more?
Hmmmm....
The essential Vulcan, I'd say Tuvok
Klingon - Chang
Romulan - Neral or Commander Sela
Ferengi - Quark
-
Oh I disagree.
Tuvok was a good Vulcan, but I dunno........he just never seemed to carry the Vulcan way with him the way Sarek did.
Chang may have been the coolest Klingon, but he was VERY unique, which automatically stops him from being the essential Klingon.
Quark...I dunno. My favorite Ferengi by far, but he seemed way too human by the end.
-
Oh I disagree.
Tuvok was a good Vulcan, but I dunno........he just never seemed to carry the Vulcan way with him the way Sarek did.
Chang may have been the coolest Klingon, but he was VERY unique, which automatically stops him from being the essential Klingon.
Quark...I dunno. My favorite Ferengi by far, but he seemed way too human by the end.
I think I'll stick with Tuvok, I thought he was VERY vulcan and unyielding in his logic. Sarek was a diplomat, so maybe the "Wiser" Vulcan but not the essential.
Chang was Unique, in that he actually strategized instead of being impulsive like most klingons. I'll give you that one, he's still probably my Fav :)
I can also agree with the Quark assessment. He definitely changed as the show progressed. I can't remember his name, but the Captain of the ship that kidnapped Piccard, he could fit the bill.
Cardassians - Gul Dukat
-
Oh yes, I'll agree with you on Dukat. Good choice.
As for Damon..bok? Or whatever it was. He was arrested by his own people for essentially not being Ferengi enough and putting vengance over profit.
I'd say Vedek Bariel (excuse the horrible spelling) for Bajorans as well. He summed up their religious nature and calm sense of being better than anyone, yet also had the ability to fight when necessary.
As for the essential Q, I'd say Q. ;D
-
Good point about Bok, I forgot that. I just like the less sniveling Ferengi...LOL
Andorians - of course... Shran ;D
-
Good point about Bok, I forgot that. I just like the less sniveling Ferengi...LOL
Andorians - of course... Shran ;D
Ah yes, Shran wins that one. Maybe we'll have to go with Liquidator Brunt as the Ferengi since power and profit were always number 1 to him. Dunno though.
Also not sure about the Romulans since we rarely met one more once, except for Tamalak, and they were usually VERY much the same character.
-
True, Tamalak we probably knew the best. When I think of the Romulans, I think of Chess Masters. With that train of thought.... :| I'd stick with my 2 candidates.
-
True, Tamalak we probably knew the best. When I think of the Romulans, I think of Chess Masters. With that train of thought.... :| I'd stick with my 2 candidates.
I can't remember either of them off the top of my head by name. One of them wasn't Tasha's daughter was it? Cause she is disqualified by genetics alone.
-
Yeah, that's Sela, and she can't be an exemplary Romulan.
I'd probably go with Tuvak as well. He was always logical, but never really an asshole about it.
Tamalak was the worst of the Romulans. What a fairy.
I'd consider Kern for the Klingon. Remember that Martok had issues with courage for a while.
-
Yeah, that's Sela, and she can't be an exemplary Romulan.
I'd probably go with Tuvak as well. He was always logical, but never really an asshole about it.
Tamalak was the worst of the Romulans. What a fairy.
I'd consider Kern for the Klingon. Remember that Martok had issues with courage for a while.
I don't feel like we learned enough about Kern for him to qualify. Martok on the other hand had his issues.....but he got over all of them like a klingon and had a sense of honor that went beyond just killing others.
Actually one of my favorite Klingons was also played by JG Hertzler in Enterprise as Archer's lawyer. He made some amazing points in that episode.
-
The unnamed Romulan commander from Balance of Terror might be the winner there. Aside from being the prototype for the species, he also displayed the most of the Roman quality that you associate with the Romulans. He was a brilliant tactician, highly duty-bound in his service to the empire, wary of what the empire had become, and willing to drink the hemlock when honor came a calling.
-
The unnamed Romulan commander from Balance of Terror might be the winner there. Aside from being the prototype for the species, he also displayed the most of the Roman quality that you associate with the Romulans. He was a brilliant tactician, highly duty-bound in his service to the empire, wary of what the empire had become, and willing to drink the hemlock when honor came a calling.
I was considering him, but figured naming him would show too much favoritism toward Mark Lenard.....who I think was amazing in both of his major roles.
-
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/IMG_20120723_210847.jpg)
Just got back from watching Where no man has gone before and Datalore on the big screen. Awesome!! The image quality is really quite stunning, and they did a marvelous job with subtly upgrading the visual effects.
rumborak
-
Tuvok isn't even remotely close for me as a stereotypical Vulcan. I vote for Sarek too.
For Klingons Martok gets my vote. Cardassian probably Dukat.
For the Binars I would say 10. 01 just didn't come across believable.
rumborak
-
BTW the first season on Blu -Ray is at Best Buy for $59.99 but you can bring in any DVD in and get $5.00 for it and the first Season for $5 less. For a Star Trek season, it's cheap.
-
Wow, that is indeed cheap. Initially the whole TNG set went for over 1k.
rumborak
-
I know. I think it last till the weekend so I'm doing that and I bought the 2009 movie as a DVD before I got the LCD and the Blue Ray player so I'll trade that in and get the Blu Ray version of that for $5.
Not bad at all.
-
I would.........but I already own every season of TNG (and every other non animated ST series) on normal DVD and really don't see the point in owning a whole season of a show twice, especially since if I start buying the BD versions I'd have to buy all of them when they're released.
-
I never pulled the plug because the seasons were so pricey but now as a Blu Ray and he restoration it's a no brainer for me.
-
For now, given that they're all on Netflix, I will abstain. When that changes the price will have gone down even further. The good news is that at least for TNG this will have been it. They remastered it, and it's highly doubtful they will touch it again.
rumborak
-
I never pulled the plug because the seasons were so pricey but now as a Blu Ray and he restoration it's a no brainer for me.
I'll come over and watch it with you. Prepare the big screen TV and a hooker or two.
-
Yeah, their not run bu George Lucas. :lol
I loved it when Spike played all the series in order when I first got my DVD. The wife and I spent the summer watching every episode from TNG to Voyager. I don't see many of them since so I think I'd personally like to own them.
I never pulled the plug because the seasons were so pricey but now as a Blu Ray and he restoration it's a no brainer for me.
I'll come over and watch it with you. Prepare the big screen TV and a hooker or two.
Or go over my bud's house. He has a movie theater there. No joke. 2 rows of seats. 4 seats in a row and the front ones are reclining theater seats.
-
A home theater huh? But how many hookers does he have?
-
None but he is Italian and works at a race track. :lol
-
None but he is Italian and works at a race track. :lol
And I'm sure he could set me up with Sarah Jessica Parker, but I have no interest in that.
-
Most Cardassians weren't crazy insane. Dukat was a maniac, and wasn't even really a Cardassian for the last season or two. I think you have to go with Torture-Boy for that one. Bringing his daughter in While Picard's lame ass is sprawled all over the floor pretty much sums them up, I think.
And not only did Martok have his battles with cowardice, he also allowed himself to be captured by the Dominion, spent months as a prisoner without offing himself or being killed escaping, and didn't even fight Jem Hadar with his fellow prisoners.
-
Most Cardassians weren't crazy insane. Dukat was a maniac, and wasn't even really a Cardassian for the last season or two. I think you have to go with Torture-Boy for that one. Bringing his daughter in While Picard's lame ass is sprawled all over the floor pretty much sums them up, I think.
And not only did Martok have his battles with cowardice, he also allowed himself to be captured by the Dominion, spent months as a prisoner without offing himself or being killed escaping, and didn't even fight Jem Hadar with his fellow prisoners.
I'll give you the Cardassian guy, but still disagree with Martok. There's nothing about being Klingon that said you have to impervious to all problems. He lost his eye fighting the Jem Hadar, and he fought and would have kept fighting till he died. And I doubt he allowed himself to be taken prisoner.
-
In general I thought the old Klingons were the most interesting. I just watched the DS9 episode where Jadzia joins three other Klingons to hunt down an albino Klingon, and it's a very enjoyable one.
rumborak
-
As I alluded to earlier, there was an episode of Enterprise where Archer gets put on trail on Kronos. His laywer is played by the guy who played Martok. There's this amazing scene where he's talking to Archer about how the Klingon ways are changing and that things aren't the way they used to be. He had a great line, something like "I remember the days when honor was a matter of character, and not senseless bloodshed". That to me said more about the Klingons, the ones that valued character and real honor and not JUST war and glory.
Dunno, I thought Martok demonstrated that kind of character more than the other Klingons who were more into glory than honor.
Found it. "My father... was a teacher; my mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now, all young people want to do is take up weapons, as soon as they can hold them. They're told there's honor in victory. Any victory. What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would've been lauded as a hero of the Empire, for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society, not so long ago. When honor was earned through integrity and... acts of true courage. Not senseless bloodshed"
Great writing.
-
This idea of picking the definitive member of each major ST species intrigues me, so I'll take a shot at this:
Vulcan - Sarek
Romulan - the Romulan commander from "Balance of Terror"
Klingon - very difficult for me to pick this one, but I'm going with Kruge (ST3:TSFS)
Ferengi - Arridor and Kol (TNG "The Price", the episode where they discover the Barzan wormhole)
Cardassian - Gul Madred (TNG "Chain of Command" David Warner FTW! :metal)
Bajoran - Ensign Ro
Human - James T Kirk :P
-
You can like Ro as much as you like, but she just happens to be Bajoran. She isn't indicative of their culture at all.
-
Vulcan - I guess I'll have to agree with Sarek. Spock became too human, and Tuvok was quite the badass for a Vulcan.
Romulan - IT'S A FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE! (actually I just really wanted to quote that line. None of them particularly stood out to me)
Klingon - I do particularly like Martok and crazy eyes (Gowron).
Ferengi - I don't know. They all got watered down to complete shit in DS9. Maybe Brunt, because Jeffrey Combs is the best at everything ever.
Cardassian - Gul Dukat, before he lost his job and worshipped the Pah Wraiths. And Marc Alaimo's crazy neck defined the look of the Cardassians with his appearance on TNG.
-
The Voyager writers really seem like they've never seen a single episode of Star Trek aside from the ones they write. Aside from beaming through shields, there are other things. The other day, a major plot element involved stealing a crescent wrench from the holodeck. Dude walked right out the door with it, and it turned up in his ship later. No explanation for how/why that was possible. The episode prior to that, Janeway is perfectly willing to hand over technology to the Hirogen. After 4 years of steadfastly refusing to do so, to the point of fighting long wars over the matter, she's perfectly willing to fork it over now, eager, in fact, despite the fact that the Hirogen are some of the nastiest people they've come across.
A little consistency really isn't too much to ask for.
-
The Voyager writers really seem like they've never seen a single episode of Star Trek aside from the ones they write. Aside from beaming through shields, there are other things. The other day, a major plot element involved stealing a crescent wrench from the holodeck. Dude walked right out the door with it, and it turned up in his ship later. No explanation for how/why that was possible. The episode prior to that, Janeway is perfectly willing to hand over technology to the Hirogen. After 4 years of steadfastly refusing to do so, to the point of fighting long wars over the matter, she's perfectly willing to fork it over now, eager, in fact, despite the fact that the Hirogen are some of the nastiest people they've come across.
A little consistency really isn't too much to ask for.
The holodeck thing is interesting. It happens in TNG once in a great while too of holodeck things leaving the holodeck. I read a pretty good reason for this being that since the holodecks use the same technology as the replicator, that certain things....like a wrench in this case can actually be replicated and removed from the holodeck.
-
The Voyager writers really seem like they've never seen a single episode of Star Trek aside from the ones they write. Aside from beaming through shields, there are other things. The other day, a major plot element involved stealing a crescent wrench from the holodeck. Dude walked right out the door with it, and it turned up in his ship later. No explanation for how/why that was possible. The episode prior to that, Janeway is perfectly willing to hand over technology to the Hirogen. After 4 years of steadfastly refusing to do so, to the point of fighting long wars over the matter, she's perfectly willing to fork it over now, eager, in fact, despite the fact that the Hirogen are some of the nastiest people they've come across.
A little consistency really isn't too much to ask for.
And yet you seem to have no problem with TOS, a show which has the most laughable consistency of any Trek series.
And TNG made the same error at least once or twice as well, in what I recall was an equally important flub. Been too long since I've seen it to name an episode, but I definitely remember it happening.
-
And yet you seem to have no problem with TOS, a show which has the most laughable consistency of any Trek series.
Nonsense. I recognize plenty of problems with TOS. I also don't "have a problem" with Voyager; I think it's a very good show. No matter how many different times and ways that I say otherwise, you guys are just locked in on your opinion that I worship TOS and think everything else is shit.
In this case, I'm merely pointing out that their writers, and definitely TNG's, quite often seem to take a piss. As for comparisons between the two, as I've pointed out before, the TOS writers didn't have any established canon to worry about, nor did they see much future necessity for one. They were just writing one-off episodes for a cheesy sci-fi show that was always a week away from cancellation. TNG and VOY were both much more than that. They knew what their show run was going to be, and they had every reason to take the past and the future into consideration in their writing; they just fumbled it from time to time.
-
So far, two TNG cast members (one of them also DS9) have been on the new show Perception on TNT. I'm equating the show to House/Bones/Monk kinda thing... not bad.
-
So far, two TNG cast members (one of them also DS9) have been on the new show Perception on TNT. I'm equating the show to House/Bones/Monk kinda thing... not bad.
Which ones? I assume Michael Dorn was one.
-
Ha nope. LeVar Burton and Armin Shimerman. Next week Cary Elwes yay!
-
Ha nope. LeVar Burton and Armin Shimerman. Next week Cary Elwes yay!
All three of those people are awesome.
And now for some reason I'm trying to imagine Cary Elwes as a Klingon.
-
I'm shocked....freakin SHOCKED!!!!
I went out this week looking for the brand new release of Star Trek: The Next Generation Season 1 on BluRay.
1st...Costco. Figured they'd have a good price.
They didn't even order it to stock in their stores.
So...next stop Fry's.
They "didn't get their new release shipment this week." (by Friday? You havn't received Tuesday's new releases by Friday? Why isn't your manager chewing someone's ass on the phone???)
Next stop WalMart. This is a last resort, because I hate WalMart...but you can't beat their prices.
The first two people I talked to....HAD NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THE SHOW!!!! CAN YOU FREAKING BELIEVE THAT???? So they went to look in their computer...and the old DVD's were the only thing that was even in the system. That's right, WalMart has not even bothered to CARRY the new STAR TREK release! I'm not looking for some little out of the way, hole in the wall "cult" show....THIS IS FREAKIN STAR TREK!!! One of the most popular TV shows of the last 30 FREAKIN YEARS!!!!
So I go to Fred Meyer....again, they didn't even order it. That's right....they DIDN'T EVEN ORDER IT!!!
So I called Best Buy, and was informed that they sold out of their entire stock within an hour of getting it in. (I'm not surprised...since no one else could even be bothered to STOCK IT!!!)
I really try to support brick and mortar, because I don't want to see it disappear...but if brick and mortar *does* go the way of the dinosaur??? It won't be because of online competition...it will be because of LAZINESS...pure and simple.
-
You learned your lesson hopefully. Unless you're buying online, Best Buy is generally the place to go for DVDs.
-
The episode where the bitter old Kim went back to un-kill the Voyager crew was really good. I generally don't like Kim episodes, but they did this one pretty well. I thought Captain Geordi was needlessly silly, and Chakotay was a weird choice for his colleague, but still solid.
-
The episode where the bitter old Kim went back to un-kill the Voyager crew was really good. I generally don't like Kim episodes, but they did this one pretty well. I thought Captain Geordi was needlessly silly, and Chakotay was a weird choice for his colleague, but still solid.
I never mind them throwing in former ST people even pointlessly.................with one obvious exception, so I was cool with Captain Geordi.
And yea it was a good episode. It seems that Garret Wang was way better at playing older cynical Kim than he was young enthusiastic Kim.
-
It seems that Garret Wang was way better at playing older cynical Kim than he was young enthusiastic Kim.
:lol Indeed.
While his 90 seconds of airtime seemed like a waste, my bigger problem is the unlikely outcome where Geordi becomes captain of a capital ship. It's kind of a running gag that anybody who appears on the show becomes a captain or an admiral in future timelines, just because it's a neat cameo.
-
It seems that Garret Wang was way better at playing older cynical Kim than he was young enthusiastic Kim.
:lol Indeed.
While his 90 seconds of airtime seemed like a waste, my bigger problem is the unlikely outcome where Geordi becomes captain of a capital ship. It's kind of a running gag that anybody who appears on the show becomes a captain or an admiral in future timelines, just because it's a neat cameo.
Well we saw Captain Riker, but only in an alternate future. However Captain Riker makes tons of sense since he was offered I think like 5-6 ships, and if I remember correctly ended up taking one of those after Nemesis.
We saw Captain Crusher but once again also in an alternate future and she was the captain of a medical supply ship which didn't seem too unlikely.
Captain Data only showed up in the comics leading up to the new movie.
I think that's it right? We never saw Captain Worf or Captain Barclay or Captain Wesley or Captain Yar.
Although Captain Troy would have been hilarious.
I also don't remember anyone from DS9 becoming a Captain or Admiral or anything outside of Sisko.
And from DS9 we had Admiral Janeway in Nemesis, but that part was originally supposed to go to 7 or 9, and I doubt they would have made her an Admiral.
-
So I'm watching the halfway decent episode where the Romulans brainwash Geordi to kill a Klingon dude but he has no idea.
So, there's a scene where Geordi, without knowingly doing so, beams some weapons down to a planet and hides his trail. So they're trying to trace the signal after they found the station he used to find out who did it.
And I wonder myself.............are they too advanced for fingerprints? I mean all they'd have to do is dust the panel to see Geordi's very recent prints on it. And I'm sure with their amazing tech they could tell from those prints who was the last guy to do it.
-
Worf was captain of Defiant on numerous occasions, even if they never gave him the rank. You also had Captains Spock, Sulu and Scott, along with Admirals Kirk, McCoy, Picard and Janeway.
And considering how annoying fingerprints are on my Android phone, it wouldn't surprise me if they spent gazillions inventing smudge proof consoles.
-
Worf was captain of Defiant on numerous occasions, even if they never gave him the rank. You also had Captains Spock, Sulu and Scott, along with Admirals Kirk, McCoy, Picard and Janeway.
And considering how annoying fingerprints are on my Android phone, it wouldn't surprise me if they spent gazillions inventing smudge proof consoles.
Taking charge of a battle ship isn't the same as what you were talking about earlier.
As far as Spock, Sulu and Scott go, well the rest make sense except for Scott, he never should have been a captain. Kirk being an Admiral makes perfect sense, as does Picard and Janeway, but not McCoy.
So really, Captain Scott and Admiral McCoy are the only ones who don't make sense. I was perfectly fine with Captain Visor.
-
In terms of cameos I thought only Brent Spiner felt shoe horned into ENT.
-
In terms of cameos I thought only Brent Spiner felt shoe horned into ENT.
Oh hell yes. I think he did a good job, but he REALLY wasn't necessary. The admins or adjunts or whatever story line was fine, but it really didn't require the main guy to be a Soong, nor did it need the klingon storyline.
-
Especially because one was just watching Lore without makeup and 20 years later.
rumborak
-
Especially because one was just watching Lore without makeup and 20 years later.
rumborak
Meh. Lore had 0 compassion and was totally over the top. Brent Spiner wasn't nearly over the top at whoever Soong, and he had a real sense of compassion, but he just got lost in his ambition.
And as I said to Mr. Simpson earlier, Lore would have been way better if he were also emotionless and used cold logic to calculate that organic life or humanoid life needed to be destroyed.
-
So I am on Season 5 of TNG and I started asking myself................can't they create control panels that don't keep exploding and kill whoever is working on them?
Also, after they explode and kill someone, why can someone else use it right away?
-
Well, you see it's all very simple really. Just turn around, close your eyes and don't mind this phaser in my hand...
-
I think it was a punishment system. Whenever some major damage was done to the ship, the computer established the most responsible person on the bridge and exploded a charge in his or her console. The replacement person was innocent and was thus free to use the console.
rumborak
-
I think it was a punishment system. Whenever some major damage was done to the ship, the computer established the most responsible person on the bridge and exploded a charge in his or her console. The replacement person was innocent and was thus free to use the console.
rumborak
I think it was the universe's karmatic response to the TNG changing the uniform color scheme. No longer could the universe just kill off red shirts, as red shirts were now indispensable for the most part, so they decided to kill off anyone sitting at a control station at random to make up for it.
-
So I am on Season 5 of TNG and I started asking myself................can't they create control panels that don't keep exploding and kill whoever is working on them?
Also, after they explode and kill someone, why can someone else use it right away?
The rule of Star Trek is that it's almost never a hardware problem. It's just a temporary software glitch.
Did the deflector dish get ripped clean off by an alien entity? No problem, it will just take Geordi a few minutes of pressing buttons in engineering to fix it. Did you just lose decks 8-15 from massive explosive decompression after shield failure? Not to worry, just give us 2 minutes of pressing buttons, and it's fixed!
-
So I am on Season 5 of TNG and I started asking myself................can't they create control panels that don't keep exploding and kill whoever is working on them?
Also, after they explode and kill someone, why can someone else use it right away?
The rule of Star Trek is that it's almost never a hardware problem. It's just a temporary software glitch.
Did the deflector dish get ripped clean off by an alien entity? No problem, it will just take Geordi a few minutes of pressing buttons in engineering to fix it. Did you just lose decks 8-15 from massive explosive decompression after shield failure? Not to worry, just give us 2 minutes of pressing buttons, and it's fixed!
Well considering he's rerouting power through the phase inverter and bypassing power through the secondary couplings only to adjust the matter/antimatter flow converter, it makes sense dude.
-
Redshirts took the brunt of it in TNG. While all that security dudes that weren't named Worf did just fine, lots of unnamed flight controllers got it, including a few by those exploding consoles. Plus plenty of other captains and admirals all wearing red. Conspiracy ranked up there with some of the TOS episodes for killing redshirts.
-
So today is Will Wheaton's 40th birthday. wtf.
Obviously since it's been 25 years since TNG started, this should have been obvious that he was around that age, but I'd just never really thought about it, and was thinking he was more like 30 (as I said, I'd just never thought about it, as obvious as it is).
He will always be a Wesley to me.
-
I know Conspiracy blew up a ship or two, but even with that I'm pretty sure the only red shirts that WE SAW that were killed were like....2 or 3 tops.
-
Rear Admiral Savar and Vice Admiral Aaron, as well as Dexter Remmick, along with Captains Scott and Keel. Presumably Admiral Quinn lived.
-
Rear Admiral Savar and Vice Admiral Aaron, as well as Dexter Remmick, along with Captains Scott and Keel. Presumably Admiral Quinn lived.
I honestly don't know the names. But if you're talking about the captains at the worm dinner, then I'm pretty sure only the man queen guy died and the rest were just stunned and were okay afterwards.
-
Rear Admiral Savar and Vice Admiral Aaron, as well as Dexter Remmick, along with Captains Scott and Keel. Presumably Admiral Quinn lived.
I honestly don't know the names. But if you're talking about the captains at the worm dinner, then I'm pretty sure only the man queen guy died and the rest were just stunned and were okay afterwards.
They were admirals, and Crusher was explicit that phasers had to be set to kill, as stun was ineffective.
-
Rear Admiral Savar and Vice Admiral Aaron, as well as Dexter Remmick, along with Captains Scott and Keel. Presumably Admiral Quinn lived.
I honestly don't know the names. But if you're talking about the captains at the worm dinner, then I'm pretty sure only the man queen guy died and the rest were just stunned and were okay afterwards.
They were admirals, and Crusher was explicit that phasers had to be set to kill, as stun was ineffective.
Yea but the kill setting stunned them I think, not kill them.
-
Rear Admiral Savar and Vice Admiral Aaron, as well as Dexter Remmick, along with Captains Scott and Keel. Presumably Admiral Quinn lived.
I honestly don't know the names. But if you're talking about the captains at the worm dinner, then I'm pretty sure only the man queen guy died and the rest were just stunned and were okay afterwards.
They were admirals, and Crusher was explicit that phasers had to be set to kill, as stun was ineffective.
Yea but the kill setting stunned them I think, not kill them.
I don't remember the episode too well, but if stun did nothing, it stands to reason that "kill" isn't going to kill them. Just because the setting is called kill, doesn't mean it affects every being/creature in the exact same way.
And it's TNG. I think it's safe to assume everyone lived happily ever after.
-
Rear Admiral Savar and Vice Admiral Aaron, as well as Dexter Remmick, along with Captains Scott and Keel. Presumably Admiral Quinn lived.
I honestly don't know the names. But if you're talking about the captains at the worm dinner, then I'm pretty sure only the man queen guy died and the rest were just stunned and were okay afterwards.
They were admirals, and Crusher was explicit that phasers had to be set to kill, as stun was ineffective.
Yea but the kill setting stunned them I think, not kill them.
I don't remember the episode too well, but if stun did nothing, it stands to reason that "kill" isn't going to kill them. Just because the setting is called kill, doesn't mean it affects every being/creature in the exact same way.
And it's TNG. I think it's safe to assume everyone lived happily ever after.
C'mon, this is the episode where they blew a guy's head up with their phasers.
I think, in this instance, it might be possible that Picard and Riker went all kill-happy with their phasers.
-
Since he was the queen, he had to die. They said later on that the others who had been under control returned to normal once the queen died, so I assume they were fine.
Why are we even discussing this? I made a joke about the control panels and it turned into a "TNG killed more red shirts than anyone!" argument? Leave it be.
Here's a question, why does Troi's abilities seem to disappear randomly? Like when that traveler from the past came and said he was from the future.....she couldn't tell he was lying? "He's holding something back". That's all you got?
-
C'mon, this is the episode where they blew a guy's head up with their phasers.
I think, in this instance, it might be possible that Picard and Riker went all kill-happy with their phasers.
But then after killing that main one it was basically like "all the other parasites magically died, everything's fine now."
TNG wasn't a dark show. I think blowing one guy's head off already exceeded their quota of doom for the week. :lol
-
They said later on that the others who had been under control returned to normal once the queen died, so I assume they were fine.
Did they? Memory-Alpha says in a couple of entries that it's unknown whether they lived or not. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if they all lived happily ever after. Like I've said, the show had no balls.
-
Why are we even discussing this? I made a joke about the control panels and it turned into a "TNG killed more red shirts than anyone!" argument? Leave it be.
What else are we going to discuss? I think we've ably covered the 'TOS vs TNG: Which Sucks More?' debate. :biggrin:
Here's a question, why does Troi's abilities seem to disappear randomly? Like when that traveler from the past came and said he was from the future.....she couldn't tell he was lying? "He's holding something back". That's all you got?
Realistic Answer: Troi is a terrible character and the writers often had no idea what to do with her.
TNG Answer: Umm.... space wizards(?)
C'mon, this is the episode where they blew a guy's head up with their phasers.
I think, in this instance, it might be possible that Picard and Riker went all kill-happy with their phasers.
But then after killing that main one it was basically like "all the other parasites magically died, everything's fine now."
TNG wasn't a dark show. I think blowing one guy's head off already exceeded their quota of doom for the week. :lol
:lol
Quite possible, but the parasites did flee all the other red-shirts they gunned down so it's likely they're toast.
-
It's interesting to see the writers use the sane cop out as in First Contact. First they introduce an incredibly subversive and insurmountable opponent, and at the end introduce a rather nonsensical single point if faikure that gets quickly defeated.
rumborak
-
It's interesting to see the writers use the sane cop out as in First Contact. First they introduce an incredibly subversive and insurmountable opponent, and at the end introduce a rather nonsensical single point if faikure that gets quickly defeated.
rumborak
I wouldn't call it a cop out in First Contact. By the time they even knew about the queen, they had lost the ability to just run into engineering and do that.
-
I'm talking about the writing aspect. The very introduction of the Borg queen was a cop out in my opinion. Borg were supposedly the very antithesis of a central point. They were supposed to be the BitTorrent of enemies, where shutting down something does almost nothing to the system. Some other component will simply pick up the slack.
rumborak
-
I'm talking about the writing aspect. The very introduction of the Borg queen was a cop out in my opinion. Borg were supposedly the very antithesis of a central point.
rumborak
I've given this a lot of thought actually, mostly because I have no life.
And the idea of a borg queen only makes sense in one scenario that I can find. And that is that the borg queen isn't actually a queen but is merely a unique interface for the borg and other species. Meaning the queen is just a program and not a real person. This kind of makes sense since there seem to be multiple queens that can show up at any point. It is merely a voice for the collective that is interactive.
I am pretty sure the queen was reluctantly introduced as well. As the writers found it nearly impossible to make anyone have a full on convo with the borg as they were.
-
Well, they totally could have gone with the interface thing (which would have been very V'ger reminiscent because that's what Lt. Ilia was), but it always struck me they just wanted to have a personified villain that they can get rid of in the end so that the hero can ride into the sunset. I mean I love First Contact as a movie, but they took the easy route on that one.
rumborak
-
Well, they totally could have gone with the interface thing (which would have been very V'ger reminiscent because that's what Lt. Ilia was), but it always struck me they just wanted to have a personified villain that they can get rid of in the end so that the hero can ride into the sunset. I mean I love First Contact as a movie, but they took the easy route on that one.
rumborak
I guess it depends on how you read it. They didn't beat the borg, they just took out the extremely tiny boarding party from the begining. Remember that that's all it was. The Borg as a whole were fine. If anything it showed what 2-3 Borg could accomplish.
-
I don't know, while the reach of a Queen shifted depending on the movie and series, once she had been introduced it meant killing her meant taking out a major part of the Borg. And that was the exact opposite to how they were introduced. Remember the vast view of the inside of the cube with the booming voice over it? It was because there was no central point to the Borg.
rumborak
-
I don't know, while the reach of a Queen shifted depending on the movie and series, once she had been introduced it meant killing her meant taking out a major part of the Borg. And that was the exact opposite to how they were introduced. Remember the vast view of the inside of the cube with the booming voice over it? It was because there was no central point to the Borg.
rumborak
It didn't as far as I know. I mean didn't all the borg die because of that plasma whatever? And Enterprise shows that some Borg survived on the planet even without the queen.
-
The Queen was just a mouthpiece, like Locutus, though a rather odd one that doesn't much jive with the borg.
-
The Borg suffered from the same problem that almost any bad guy from any movie/tv show ever suffers from. When they are introduced, they have to be presented as almost unbeatable, so we are scared of them.
However....eventually the good guys have to beat them. So a flaw is later introduced to make that possible despite it not being there when that character is initially introduced.
-
That's not how I interpreted the movie. Why would Borg just start flying sparks when the gas hasn't even reached them? IMHO it was to mean that the impending death of the Queen meant the whole system was falling apart. After all, she is the one who "brings order into chaos", which means she was a central conduit for the Borg.
rumborak
-
That's not how I interpreted the movie. Why would Borg just start flying sparks when the gas hasn't even reached it? IMHO it was to mean that the impending death of the Queen meant the whole system was falling apart. After all, she is the one who "brings order into chaos", which means she was a central conduit for the Borg.
rumborak
Like I said, "she" is just a manifestation of the collective. Perhaps the idea of the other borg (and just in that movie mind you) dying when she did was a writing flub.
It still seems to me that when the time is appropriate, or at least they feel it is, they create the queen to act as a central piece as opposed to her actually being an independent entity that controls them.
-
That's not how I interpreted the movie. Why would Borg just start flying sparks when the gas hasn't even reached it? IMHO it was to mean that the impending death of the Queen meant the whole system was falling apart. After all, she is the one who "brings order into chaos", which means she was a central conduit for the Borg.
rumborak
Like I said, "she" is just a manifestation of the collective. Perhaps the idea of the other borg (and just in that movie mind you) dying when she did was a writing flub.
It still seems to me that when the time is appropriate, or at least they feel it is, they create the queen to act as a central piece as opposed to her actually being an independent entity that controls them.
I think it was more than that. For one thing, Picard remembered her from his time as Locutus. Also, she said time and time again that she was the Borg. Also, there were the contacts Voyager had with her that further established her role as the top dog. I don't think she was a mouthpiece. I think she was the Borg, like she kept telling people.
Really poor move, frankly. They fucked up one of the great villains going that route.
The flipside to that is that it doesn't make any sense at all for her to have been along on that mission. If you're the queen, like with ants, aren't you going to stay someplace safe and secure? Flying through time oversee one assimilation doesn't make much sense. However, little of what the TNG movie writers did made much sense. Remember in the same movie they turned Picard into a raving lunatic.
-
To your first point.....I agree, the queen was a bad move, but it wasn't THAT bad.
And to your second point, there are multiple queens, not just one. It's likely she can be built and utilized wherever they need her.
-
You have a peculiar interpretation of that, Adami. I don't get that notion at all from the series/movies. I agree with EB that they majorly screwed over the best villain of Star Trek.
I was thinking actually what a good way would have been to kill the original concept of the Borg. They used to have the idea of that visual virus inserted into the system, but that doesn't make for good watching. I think a really cool plot would have been if the crew had, unbeknownst to the viewer, slowly infiltrated the cube, by equipping regular crew with Borg implant lookalikes and placing them in stations. Then a concerted all-at-once-sabotage could have brought down the cube. I think the first realization by the viewer, e.g. when a Borg turns around and it's Beverly Crusher, could have been very cool.
rumborak
-
Didn't some Voyager crew go undercover on a Borg ship?
Anyhoo, the problem with multiple queens is that a big chunk of her was organic with a very distinct personality. We kept seeing the same one.
And if she's just a mouthpiece, then why use the same one over and over? They could kidnap a Locutus anytime they needed one, or just use one of their own drones, a la 7/9.
And why did they name Picard Locutus? The Borg don't have names, and it's not a human name.
-
Didn't some Voyager crew go undercover on a Borg ship?
Yeah, they did, in Unimatrix Zero. Not one of the better Borg episodes. They had something set up to zap them out of being under Borg control.
It was always funny how when it was convenient, the writers decided the Borg weren't interested in assimilating people, and you could just walk around casually, but then when they felt like it, suddenly the Borg were running around popping everyone in the neck with tubes.
-
Sorry this is way off the current thread of this discussion, but someone sent me this today and I loved it. I didn't think it needed its own thread, but it did need to be posted:
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564749_413834008652272_2016041071_n.jpg)
Carry on :metal
-
You hadn't seen that one before? It's been around for a while, but it's still awesome.
I noticed that all of the faces are taken directly from episodes. At one time I figured them all out. Spock is obviously the end of Amok Time, Sulu is from The Naked Time, Uhura is from some time she was singing, McCoy is from the end of an episode where he says "Well what do you know, I finally got the last word in!".
Not sure I ever placed Chekov and Scotty, and Kirk could be from anything, but it's a good game if anyone wants to try. :tup
-
Yeah, someone sent it to me because they saw my screen name and avatar on here :lol
-
Reminds of the Star Wars one. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there's a picture very similar to this with all the main characters from the original trilogy rocking out, and unfortunately that makes this one seem a bit like a rip-off. Oh, it's an homage? Well, that's okay then.
But Spock is smiling. It would be cooler if he were just standing there playing bass very stoicly, as he is wont to do.
-
Reminds of the Star Wars one. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there's a picture very similar to this with all the main characters from the original trilogy rocking out, and unfortunately that makes this one seem a bit like a rip-off. Oh, it's an homage? Well, that's okay then.
It looks very intentional that it was supposed to be like the Star Wars one. Somewhere between homage and parody, but either way I'm cool with it. I think it's just part of the light hearted rivalry between the two franchises.
-
I vaguely remember the Star Wars version now that you guys mention it
-
You hadn't seen that one before? It's been around for a while, but it's still awesome.
I noticed that all of the faces are taken directly from episodes. At one time I figured them all out. Spock is obviously the end of Amok Time, Sulu is from The Naked Time, Uhura is from some time she was singing, McCoy is from the end of an episode where he says "Well what do you know, I finally got the last word in!".
Not sure I ever placed Chekov and Scotty, and Kirk could be from anything, but it's a good game if anyone wants to try. :tup
You're right about McCoy, and I suspect it was Journey to Babel. I think Spock was a different episode, though. That doesn't look like the "I didn't kill Jim!" look. It looks more like the "I'm really stoned and banging Jill Ireland!" look.
Just watched the Voyager episode Counterpoint, where Janeway gets all gooey for the double-agent defector while smuggling telepaths. It was fine until the end, where there was no explanation whatsoever for what they did with Tuvak and the other Vulcans/Betazoids. There are several things they could have made up to address it, but like always, they just ignore it and hope nobody notices. These guys aren't bad at writing stories, but their attention to detail is just abysmal.
-
You hadn't seen that one before? It's been around for a while, but it's still awesome.
I noticed that all of the faces are taken directly from episodes. At one time I figured them all out. Spock is obviously the end of Amok Time, Sulu is from The Naked Time, Uhura is from some time she was singing, McCoy is from the end of an episode where he says "Well what do you know, I finally got the last word in!".
Not sure I ever placed Chekov and Scotty, and Kirk could be from anything, but it's a good game if anyone wants to try. :tup
Just watched the Voyager episode Counterpoint, where Janeway gets all gooey for the double-agent defector while smuggling telepaths. It was fine until the end, where there was no explanation whatsoever for what they did with Tuvak and the other Vulcans/Betazoids. There are several things they could have made up to address it, but like always, they just ignore it and hope nobody notices. These guys aren't bad at writing stories, but their attention to detail is just abysmal.
That's precisely why I never made it through too many episodes of any of the spinoffs other than TNG
-
You hadn't seen that one before? It's been around for a while, but it's still awesome.
I noticed that all of the faces are taken directly from episodes. At one time I figured them all out. Spock is obviously the end of Amok Time, Sulu is from The Naked Time, Uhura is from some time she was singing, McCoy is from the end of an episode where he says "Well what do you know, I finally got the last word in!".
Not sure I ever placed Chekov and Scotty, and Kirk could be from anything, but it's a good game if anyone wants to try. :tup
Just watched the Voyager episode Counterpoint, where Janeway gets all gooey for the double-agent defector while smuggling telepaths. It was fine until the end, where there was no explanation whatsoever for what they did with Tuvak and the other Vulcans/Betazoids. There are several things they could have made up to address it, but like always, they just ignore it and hope nobody notices. These guys aren't bad at writing stories, but their attention to detail is just abysmal.
That's precisely why I never made it through too many episodes of any of the spinoffs other than TNG
In retrospect, TNG was the worst of the spinoffs.
-
El Barto thinks TNG is the worst Star Trek show? Shocking.
DS9 was the best by far. Voyager had some great stories but overall realllllllly flat and boring characters. Enterprise had a good amount of both, but only picked up steam right before they got cancelled.
-
Out of curiosity, have you watched Voyager since it first ran? I know you were rewatching some of the other series. There's actually some conflict among the characters, which is refreshing. They're rarely at each others throats, but still some decent tension. A nice departure from Roddenberry's Love Boat mentality of TNG. More importantly, the real dogs are much fewer than TNG. I will say that TNG had the better episodes at the high end, but the ration of good/bad is much more favorable with Voyager.
I'm pointing this out not to belittle TNG, but because 2 months ago I thought Voyager was the weakest of the lot, by far. Rewatching it with a fresh perspective and it's a much better show than I recalled.
-
I'm re-watching all of Star Trek. I missed a few episodes in ToS 3rd season since I couldn't stomach it. But right now I'm nearing the end of the 5th season of TNG. After the 6th season, I'll watch season 1 of DS9, then season 7 of TNG, then more of DS9 till Voyager is supposed to start, then I'll go back and forth by season until and with the movies until I'm done.
And having conflict is fine, but it's not enough to make it better. I know you hate the peace mentality of TNG, but I didn't. The characters had depth, personality, and they grew a lot. Voyager....meh. The only characters to truly develop were the doctor and 7. The rest basically started and ended as the exact same person and at no point were given a whole lot of depth. I still like them, and I think the stories are generally better than most of TNG. But I watch these things mostly for the characters, and Voyager lacked those as much as TNG or DS9 did. The difference between you and I is that I love the characters from TNG and you don't.
-
El Barto thinks TNG is the worst Star Trek show? Shocking.
DS9 was the best by far. Voyager had some great stories but overall realllllllly flat and boring characters. Enterprise had a good amount of both, but only picked up steam right before they got cancelled.
I can only underscore this assessment. I started putting on some DS9 episodes recently, and they are thoroughly enjoyable. Very few stinkers.
rumborak
-
Season 5 of TNG has some really amazing episodes. Especially I, Borg and The Inner Light. Stewart's acting in both of these, but especially in I,Borg is quite brilliant.
El Barto, I'm sure you have a plethora of complaints about each episode, even if you do like them, but can you not rip them apart? Please? It'd be nice to just enjoy those episodes.
Also, I had totally forgotten that in the Inner Light, Picard's son was played by Stewart's son.
-
Inner Light is one of the best Trek episodes. The ending gets me every time. :'(
I'm currently doing a rewatch of DS9 right now with a bunch of people on another forum that I post on. Only on Season 1, but it's still quite enjoyable. I'll never get people who bag on the first two seasons of DS9. Sure, they don't compare to later Dominion episodes, but the cast and crew make it so that even 'standard issue Trek plotlines' are relatively enjoyable.
I've been thinking of doing either TNG or Voyager too but I can't quite muster up the strength needed to get through those. TNG will be... interesting. It's been a long time since I've watched most of Season 1, but all my memories of it are not good ones. :lol
-
El Barto thinks TNG is the worst Star Trek show? Shocking.
DS9 was the best by far. Voyager had some great stories but overall realllllllly flat and boring characters. Enterprise had a good amount of both, but only picked up steam right before they got cancelled.
I can only underscore this assessment. I started putting on some DS9 episodes recently, and they are thoroughly enjoyable. Very few stinkers.
rumborak
Very few. I can only think of 1 or 2 episodes I would say were bad. The rest ranged from enjoyable to amazing.
However, I still find myself most drawn to Voyager for watching individual episodes. Despite its flaws, I find it has the most charm, and has plenty of amazing episodes. DS9 to me is best watched through rather than individually, due to being more serialized.
-
El Barto, I'm sure you have a plethora of complaints about each episode, even if you do like them, but can you not rip them apart? Please? It'd be nice to just enjoy those episodes.
I haven't ripped anything apart. The only thing I've done for the last month is point out some plot holes when they're particularly glaring, and that's actually prompted some interesting discussion. Besides, given how different our opinions are on the matter, it's inconceivable that mine would dissuade you from enjoying an episode. I certainly don't let your and Rumbo's steady stream of TOS criticisms detract from my enjoyment of the show. In fact, it's probably given me new things to look at/for when watching the spinoffs.
-
Btw, I think it's hilarious how we got this small club of Trekkies here :lol
rumborak
-
Dark Voyage was up tonight, and it's biggest weakness was the inclusion of the aforementioned Borg Queen. As good as parts of it were, the personification of the Borg really weakens them as scary characters. They could have done that whole episode using the multilayered Borg voice instead of the queen, and it would have been much more dramatic and intense. Real shame.
That said, parts of it were approaching masterful. The sequence with Seven having to witness the assimilation of a species was perfectly done, with the chaos and the screaming, as well as her reflexive capture of an escapee. The inter-cuts with her dipshit parents were also very good, as was the opening battle as shown from the Borg's perspective. All in all, some of their best work, despite a couple of significant flaws.
-
I think where Voyager really dropped the ball was with Species 8472 or whatever they were called. Their introduction was great. A totally alien race who actually frighten the Borg. But then they became scared aliens who just wanted to be left alone by the big voyager meanies. That whole episode of them taking human form and negotiating peace was lame. They really could have made them a masterful race of conquerors and destroyers.
-
I think where Voyager really dropped the ball was with Species 8472 or whatever they were called. Their introduction was great. A totally alien race who actually frighten the Borg. But then they became scared aliens who just wanted to be left alone by the big voyager meanies. That whole episode of them taking human form and negotiating peace was lame. They really could have made them a masterful race of conquerors and destroyers.
That's not exactly how it played out. They didn't seek peace, and Mr. Hand was pretty clear that his superiors would probably go right on ahead with the infiltration of Earth anyway, despite his efforts.
Another problem was that both sides had devastating weaponry that made continued conflict impractical. Between 8472 being able to blow up planets, and Voyager being able to shut them all down nearly instantly, what was really left for them to do?
-
Dark Voyage was up tonight, and it's biggest weakness was the inclusion of the aforementioned Borg Queen. As good as parts of it were, the personification of the Borg really weakens them as scary characters. They could have done that whole episode using the multilayered Borg voice instead of the queen, and it would have been much more dramatic and intense. Real shame.
That said, parts of it were approaching masterful. The sequence with Seven having to witness the assimilation of a species was perfectly done, with the chaos and the screaming, as well as her reflexive capture of an escapee. The inter-cuts with her dipshit parents were also very good, as was the opening battle as shown from the Borg's perspective. All in all, some of their best work, despite a couple of significant flaws.
You mean Dark Frontier, I assume?
I think Voyager overused the Borg Queen, although I guess you can blame First Contact as much for establishing her in the first place. And Seven's backstory kind of contradicts the history of nobody having heard of the Borg until the Enterprise D encountered it (excluding First Contact's time travel, and later with Enterprise shoehorning in a story too). I actually can't remember much about the episode other than that.
My favourite Voyager Borg episode would have to be Scorpion. And while a lot of people seem to dislike it, I quite like Endgame too, although I agree on with everyone else on its obvious faults. It was also the best episode for Species 8472 too.
-
I actually assumed her parents were doing their thing after the Enterprise brought the Borg into play. However, if the Hansen's did discover them, it would kind of make since that nobody ever found out about it. They had mentioned burning their bridges and no longer having a home, and then they got assimilated. Aside from the rumors that started the Hansen's interest, the Borg would still have been new to the Federation. But yeah, between that and the Enterprise shoehorning, they did kind of trample all over Q-Who.
I don't really recall Endgame, and I don't remember 8472 being in it at all. I'll get there pretty soon, though.
As for Dark Frontier, I remember not liking it when it first aired, but after revisiting it, I liked it quite a bit. Honestly, I can say that about most of the series. For some reason, it just works a lot better for me now.
-
Sorry, that species 8472 comment was meant for Scorpion, not Endgame. They weren't in Endgame at all.
I haven't rewatched Dark Frontier, but I assumed this stuff happened before the Enterprise D incident. I think they've mentioned how long ago she was assimilated, and I recall it working out to before that point, although with the Borg maturation stuff they've mentioned in other episodes, it could theoretically have worked out. But I don't think it did. I always thought the storyline of her parents being off the grid was to avoid the canon issue there, same with the Star Trek: Enterprise episode with the Borg.
Not that any of that really bothered me hugely, it just felt a bit revisionist based on what was already established.
edit: according to memory-alpha she was assimilated 22 years before she joined the Voyager crew.
-
The Enterprise thing was as revisionist as it gets. That was my biggest problem with the show. They got to the point where they were just cramming in references and tie-ins as ratings boosters. Not unlike Captain LaForge the other night, actually.
As for the Hansens, yeah, I suppose it was a bit revisionist. Although, plenty of other people knew about the Borg. Consider that Guinan was their key source of intel, so it's possible that the Hansen's had picked up on their existence elsewhere.
-
It doesn't bother me too much, I just found it a bit forced to put in this backstory for her of looking for the Borg. Didn't mind Captain LaForge one bit, especially being one of my favourite Trek episodes anyway. I did have a problem with them sticking Troi and Howlin' Mad Murdock in there though. Those were all just terrible. If Troi was useless in her own show, she's sure not going to be any more useful in a cameo. :lol
And I wouldn't have minded Enterprise dancing around canon for a Borg episode if it was really great, but it just felt like an uninspired reuse, as did much of those first two seasons. I can't blame them though, because the whole premise of the show was boxed in by canon from the beginning.
They would have been better off completely ignoring everything from TOS that boxed them in, because most of it was one-off throwaway anyway.
-
It would be interesting to see what the distribution of viewership across the globe was with the different series. One thing that ENT did wrong was that it was way too American. The theme song would have fit to a Western, the uniforms were essentially NASA uniforms and the crew was a US crew. But, there was no need to. It played after First Contact, which was after WWIII. They had a clean slate in front of them and yet went for the easy nationalistic vibe. I remember watching a few episodes back in Germany and immediately feeling left out. It no longer was a show that happily mixed origins and ideologies.
rumborak
-
I'm not familiar with the backstory/history of the ST world but I always liked that about ENT. It didn't mix those things originally from the get go, but it was a show that showed the origins of those idealogies and the process of forming of other rules based on mistakes. I didn't mind the American vibe that much, not after the theme song anyway. And the uniforms weren't hilarious like in the other shows xD
-
It would be interesting to see what the distribution of viewership across the globe was with the different series. One thing that ENT did wrong was that it was way too American. The theme song would have fit to a Western, the uniforms were essentially NASA uniforms and the crew was a US crew. But, there was no need to. It played after First Contact, which was after WWIII. They had a clean slate in front of them and yet went for the easy nationalistic vibe. I remember watching a few episodes back in Germany and immediately feeling left out. It no longer was a show that happily mixed origins and ideologies.
rumborak
Well you had Reed who was pure British, through and through. And you had Phlox who was not very American in his personality.
But you're right, I did miss it when I remembered all the German cast members in former Star Treks. ;)
But Abydos has a point, they showed the origins. There wasn't even a Federation at this point, it was just Starfleet, which was based on Earth. So having a bunch of Aliens on board wouldn't make sense. However a few more non American's than just Reed would have been nice. Or if the American's weren't so overly American.
-
Yeah, Starfleet didn't exist yet, but if the Starfleet we all know and love came out of the shambles of another world war, clearly the traditional dividing lines must have been rendered irrelevant. I thought they dropped a major ball on just mapping it back to the US.
rumborak
-
Yeah, Starfleet didn't exist yet, but if the Starfleet we all know and love came out of the shambles of another world war, clearly the traditional dividing lines must have been rendered irrelevant. I thought they dropped a major ball on just mapping it back to the US.
rumborak
Well as I said Reed was pure English, and Hoshi was about as Asian as Sulu. And that one dude was black. Actually that's identical to the first season of TOS. A bunch of Americans, an Americanized Asian, a black person and a British person.
-
A little more national diversity would be cool. That being said, it was in Montana that the first warp drive, and First Contact took place. Do we know the status of the world after the last big war as far as National Power distribution?
-
A little more national diversity would be cool. That being said, it was in Montana that the first warp drive, and First Contact took place. Do we know the status of the world after the last big war as far as National Power distribution?
No. But I think it was either implied or outright stated that after the Vulcan's came down, the world united as one.
-
Still you guys are right, more national diversity would have been cool. Overall I liked Enterprise :)
-
Still you guys are right, more national diversity would have been cool. Overall I liked Enterprise :)
Oh so did I. I just wish they had tried to make it less like TOS and not identical to it chemistry wise.
-
Yeah, Starfleet didn't exist yet, but if the Starfleet we all know and love came out of the shambles of another world war, clearly the traditional dividing lines must have been rendered irrelevant. I thought they dropped a major ball on just mapping it back to the US.
rumborak
Well as I said Reed was pure English, and Hoshi was about as Asian as Sulu. And that one dude was black. Actually that's identical to the first season of TOS. A bunch of Americans, an Americanized Asian, a black person and a British person.
A brit played by a Canadian :P
-
Yeah, Starfleet didn't exist yet, but if the Starfleet we all know and love came out of the shambles of another world war, clearly the traditional dividing lines must have been rendered irrelevant. I thought they dropped a major ball on just mapping it back to the US.
rumborak
Well as I said Reed was pure English, and Hoshi was about as Asian as Sulu. And that one dude was black. Actually that's identical to the first season of TOS. A bunch of Americans, an Americanized Asian, a black person and a British person.
A brit played by a Canadian :P
Well the American was played by a Canadian too, so it's even.
-
I recall a discussion here about the lack of toilets on starships. Turns out they were shown once. Here's Kirk sitting on one (though not in a functional capacity).
(https://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051021005846/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a0/Brig_toilet.jpg)
Bonus points for anybody who recognizes the episode (without checking the picture URL).
-
Episode? Doesn't look like any episode. Looks more like a movie. And based on what Shatner would normally be making on the toilet, I'd say it's Star Trek V.
Edit: Just looked at the url and it doesn't tell which episode, I don't think anyway.
-
It was final frontier. The URL said he was in the brig,which was a giveaway.
The toilets are hidden in the walls until you mash the big silver button, which would explain why you never see them. When Paris was in the brig the other day (30 Days), I thought it was kind of spartan. There's also a retractable sink next to the can.
-
It was final frontier. The URL said he was in the brig,which was a giveaway.
Sweet, got it right.
-
That's from an unused scene from Star Trek V. I remember Shatner talking about it, how he'd come up with a way to have a conversation take place in a head (ship's bathroom), which, let's face it, does happen sometimes. The toilets are discreet and covered when not open for business, and because of the conversation, you might not even notice that they're in a head. Paramount nixed it anyway.
-
Yeah, Starfleet didn't exist yet, but if the Starfleet we all know and love came out of the shambles of another world war, clearly the traditional dividing lines must have been rendered irrelevant. I thought they dropped a major ball on just mapping it back to the US.
rumborak
Well as I said Reed was pure English, and Hoshi was about as Asian as Sulu. And that one dude was black. Actually that's identical to the first season of TOS. A bunch of Americans, an Americanized Asian, a black person and a British person.
Reed was the only one I perceived as non-American. Hoshi and Mayweather definitely felt like standard Asian-American and African-American.
rumborak
-
Yeah, Starfleet didn't exist yet, but if the Starfleet we all know and love came out of the shambles of another world war, clearly the traditional dividing lines must have been rendered irrelevant. I thought they dropped a major ball on just mapping it back to the US.
rumborak
Well as I said Reed was pure English, and Hoshi was about as Asian as Sulu. And that one dude was black. Actually that's identical to the first season of TOS. A bunch of Americans, an Americanized Asian, a black person and a British person.
Reed was the only one I perceived as non-American. Hoshi and Mayweather definitely felt like standard Asian-American and African-American.
rumborak
So did Sulu and Uhura. Like I said, it's identical to TOS.
Now that I think about it, DS9 was the only really diverse cast. Voyager also had a bunch of Americans, a Vulcan, an Asian American.....well in this case Tuvok served as both the Vulcan and the black guy. TNG had the 2 aliens, the black guy, a British guy and a bunch of Americans.
I think what made Enterprise different is that it FELT American. The American guys were REALLY American. While on TNG, Voyager and so forth they felt very detached from what is now considered American.
-
That's from an unused scene from Star Trek V. I remember Shatner talking about it, how he'd come up with a way to have a conversation take place in a head (ship's bathroom), which, let's face it, does happen sometimes. The toilets are discreet and covered when not open for business, and because of the conversation, you might not even notice that they're in a head. Paramount nixed it anyway.
It was used. It was when they were locked up in the brig. There are three stills on M-A of it closed, being opened, and being sat upon. I always assumed it was just a retractable chair, but it's clearly the can.
-
I am watching Encounter at Farpoint on BluRay for the first time.
I am *extremely* unimpressed. I had heard/read reviews that the episodes look like they were just shot yesterday. What a bunch of crap. I could not disagree more.
I will say that the SFX shots look really freakin awesome. It does look to me like the rave reviews *DO* apply to the effects shots. But I personally see little to no improvement whatsoever on the set shots. Grainy...glaring... Really thought they would have cleaned a lot of that stuff up. Looks like they only cleaned up the effects shots...everything else looks to be about the same quality as the DVD's.
I will also add that the DVD box sets were BEAUTIFUL pieces of art. The slim packaging for the BluRay is cheap, and BOOOORRRRING. No imagination went into the packaging at all.
I'm pretty disappointed. Not sure if I'll pick up the rest of the seasons or not. It *might* be worth it so that I won't put any excess wear and tear on my old DVD boxes. I can buy these boring BluRays to throw and around the room and seal up my DVD's in some way so that they can be display pieces.
I'll have to get over my disappointment and reassess before I put my hard earned money down on any more of these.
-
I am watching Trekkies for the first time in about ten years and HOLY CRAP! I forgot how enamored some people are. Also I forgot how huge prescription glasses were in the 90's. I've been to conventions before but damn. Damn.
-
Watching DS9 just now, who shows up? Lwaxana Troi. And the episode turns shit. Really amazing, I can't think if a single other character that so consistently sent episodes to the crapper.
rumborak
-
I find her less annoying in DS9 than in TNG, and I think they gave her a bit more depth, but I do recall her episodes were weaker ones, although I don't think they were bad (very few DS9 episodes I would call bad).
I recall quite liking the episode where she marries Odo.
-
I really LOVE Lwaxana Troi. Maybe just because I feel like there aren't enough women like her in the world.
Ok, maybe she talks a bit too much...but I really like her carefree outlook on life and conventional attitudes...
-
She reminds me of my mother in law and that's not a good thing. :lol
-
Watching DS9 just now, who shows up? Lwaxana Troi
-Shivers-
---
So I decided to start up on Voyager where I left off over a year ago. Near the end of S4. Woot
-
I'm about half way through S2 of DS9 now, can't believe I brushed this off for so many years, I'm really enjoying it.
-
It only gets better. :biggrin:
-
Holy shit. I had forgotten how much hotter mirror Dax is. Fuuuck.
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5azqqF0361rqgk9xo1_400.jpg)
-
Holy shit. I had forgotten how much hotter mirror Dax is. Fuuuck.
Which one? I must be the only guy who was WAY more attracted to the short haired Dax than the super tall one. (I know both of their names, but can't figure out how to properly spell them, and don't feel like looking it up)
Speaking of which, I must be the only guy who likes Lwaxana Troi. Sure she had some bad episodes, but I like her as a character. And she had some real great moments, like talking about being lonely a few weeks after Gene Roddenbery died.
-
Same here actually. Ezri Dax (Nicole de Boer) was crazy attractive, more so than Jadzia, despite Ezri being a whiner.
rumborak
-
Same here actually. Ezri Dax (Nicole due Boer) was crazy attractive, more so than Jadzia, despite Ezri being a whiner.
rumborak
So were you talking about mirror Ezri or mirror Jadzia?
Also, I do think doing the multiple Mirror episodes was a fault of DS9. It was neat when ToS did it, cause it was a freak accident. And Enterprise doing it was cool because it never crossed over. But DS9 made it like the two universes could intertwine any time anyone wanted, which has HORRIBLE ramifications for the Star Trek universe.
-
Holy shit. I had forgotten how much hotter mirror Dax is. Fuuuck.
I didn't care for the mirror universe episodes in DS9, so I don't really have any recollection of her. She certainly looks hot there, though.
Not surprising, really. One thing Star Trek always did was take really hot chicks, and dull their looks for their character. There would always be instances later where they'd alter the character for one reason or another, and they'd look surprisingly hot. Seven as Anika Hansen is the best example. Dax there. Kes when they made her human. T'Pol as the slave in their mirror universe. Hoshi in that same universe (holy fuck!). Wouldn't surprise me if there weren't instances where they made Kira look good, and I never dug her at all.
-
Same here actually. Ezri Dax (Nicole de Boer) was crazy attractive, more so than Jadzia, despite Ezri being a whiner.
rumborak
Ezri was cute, but I'll take Jadzia anyday. And the whining certainly didn't help. :lol
Speaking of Jadzia, I saw an episode of Becker yesterday randomly on TV, which as you all know had Terry Farrell in it. It's nice seeing her out of the Starfleet potato sack.
-
Any Bridge Officer: Captain, there's an unauthorized shuttle launch in progress.
Any Captain: STOP THEM!
Bridge Officer: Sorry. It's too late.
Has there ever been anybody who tried and failed to steal a shuttlecraft? Ever? Shuttlecraft theft was a commonplace occurrence in every series. Data or Seven you could understand, since they're superhuman. But anybody could do it, any time. They had strangers come aboard and steal their shit. Children stole shuttlecraft! At this point, every time it happens it's just laughable.
Another thing I saw mentioned elsewhere is that Voyager making a straight path the Alpha quadrant would have been twice the distance as heading towards the Gamma quadrant and the Bajoran wormhole. Granted, they would have flown right the fuck into a war they had no idea was happening, but it still would have been the right option. They left on their mission from DS9, after all, so they knew the thing was there.
-
Any Bridge Officer: Captain, there's an unauthorized shuttle launch in progress.
Any Captain: STOP THEM!
Bridge Officer: Sorry. It's too late.
Has there ever been anybody who tried and failed to steal a shuttlecraft? Ever? Shuttlecraft theft was a commonplace occurrence in every series. Data or Seven you could understand, since they're superhuman. But anybody could do it, any time. They had strangers come aboard and steal their shit. Children stole shuttlecraft! At this point, every time it happens it's just laughable.
Another thing I saw mentioned elsewhere is that Voyager making a straight path the Alpha quadrant would have been twice the distance as heading towards the Gamma quadrant and the Bajoran wormhole. Granted, they would have flown right the fuck into a war they had no idea was happening, but it still would have been the right option. They left on their mission from DS9, after all, so they knew the thing was there.
Totally agree on the Shuttlecraft deal. It also applies any time anyone wanted to lock someone out of a system. Anybody could lock anybody out at any time, usually in just a matter of seconds and very rarely could anyone get passed it.
And your thing about Voyager going toward the Bajoran worm hole.....well that is a damn fine point. However since it never crossed....well most peoples minds it seems, I'd say it's easy for the writers to not have considered it.
-
You know, despite the awesomeness of the DS9 wormhole animation, the way they superimposed the appearing ships always looked lackluster. They just appear somewhere away from the mouth of the wormhole.
rumborak
-
Any Bridge Officer: Captain, there's an unauthorized shuttle launch in progress.
Any Captain: STOP THEM!
Bridge Officer: Sorry. It's too late.
Has there ever been anybody who tried and failed to steal a shuttlecraft? Ever? Shuttlecraft theft was a commonplace occurrence in every series. Data or Seven you could understand, since they're superhuman. But anybody could do it, any time. They had strangers come aboard and steal their shit. Children stole shuttlecraft! At this point, every time it happens it's just laughable.
Another thing I saw mentioned elsewhere is that Voyager making a straight path the Alpha quadrant would have been twice the distance as heading towards the Gamma quadrant and the Bajoran wormhole. Granted, they would have flown right the fuck into a war they had no idea was happening, but it still would have been the right option. They left on their mission from DS9, after all, so they knew the thing was there.
Based on the few times a map is shown on screen, the distance isn't that much shorter at all, and it would have cut maybe 5-10 years off their trip best case.
That may still sound like a good gain, but considering that their journey was estimated to be about 70 years at cruise speed, and the discovery of the wormhole was relatively new, and more of the trip would have been in completely uncharted territory (plus taken them into Dominion space, although I'm not sure they really knew much about that at the time they departed), it wouldn't have been the best option for the trip for the minimal potential gain. Plus with the discovery of the wormhole being so recent, they didn't know for a fact the wormhole would still be there and stable in 70 years.
Too much of a gamble for such a long trip imo.
-
According to my map, easily ten years. Consider that they have to detour around the galactic center, as well. It's mostly uncharted regardless of which way they go. Now considering how many threats and how much trouble they ran into over their 7 years, knocking 10 years off of the trip increases their odds of survival tremendously.
Because there were already people they knew in the Gamma Quadrant, it's probably more familiar to them than the route through the Delta Quadrant. Also, I think they were already aware that The Borg originated from Delta.
As for availability of the wormhole, they never mentioned any prospects of it going away, and they'd presumably studied it a fair amount before pronouncing it safe. Also, Voyager seemed completely unaware of the existence of the Dominion at that point, so they wouldn't have been a deterrent.
-
According to a couple of different on screen maps I saw in a quick search earlier, it was more like 5-10 years at most, and charted space would extend a decent fraction of that based on some of the deep space missions they've mentioned (1/7 to 1/4), so they'd be making some kind of contact with Federation ships long before the full 70,000LY distance anyway, making it a much safer bet. The Gamma Quadrant wasn't charted at all at that point, so they would be entirely 100% blind and alone until they hit that wormhole.
All in all, it was the better option.
-
Depending on which map, it's 10k-15k LY shorter. It also depends how much clearance you have to give to the Great Barrier. The bigger issue is that they knew the Borg inhabited the Delta Quadrant. Like I said, every year they were out there exposed them to more and more hazards. Look at all the shit they went through on their 7 year trip. Decreasing the amount of time necessary for the trip, and therefore the number of threats, should have been the priority. Given an uncharted 60k LY or a barely charted 70k LY trek through Borg country, it's a no-brainer.
-
I disagree.
I think for at least the difference in distance, they would have had some kind of charts, enough to chart a moderately safe passage, and there would have been at least some Federation ships for the remainder of the trip from that point on. Then factor in that after decades, the Federation could have made advancements in warp technology, and been in radio contact with them much sooner than the full 70,000LY to help out in some way.
Considering Voyager was officially declared lost, had they gone for the wormhole, they would have been almost 100% guaranteed on their own until they hit the wormhole, because nobody knew they were lost in the DQ making the trip home.
And Voyager seemed to have very little info on the wormhole or probably the Gamma Quadrant. It would have been a gamble for them to head in the entirely wrong direction on the assumption this one wormhole was still going to be there in 60 years, since it was the only stable wormhole that they'd ever known to exist, and they didn't know anything about it. Had that not panned out, they just screwed themselves over by several decades by putting all of their eggs in one basket.
And either direction could have been Borg country. The Borg apparently had pretty big space in the DQ, big enough that they couldn't travel around it once they hit it on their direct AQ path, and as far as I recall, Voyager wouldn't have known where Borg space was exactly in advance anyway, since none of them had been there, so they couldn't have made an educated guess and let that influence their choice of travel from the start.
60K entirely alone in completely uncharted space vs 70K with charted space and potential help. The more I think about it, the more it's a no brainer for the AQ as far as I'm concerned.
-
Holy christ you guys are nerds.
-
Shut up and pick a side. :lol
-
I'll go with whoever gets me a sexy orion slave girl.
-
(https://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a1/Orion_slave_girls.jpg)
Here, have three from a terrible episode of Enterprise (assuming the pic shows up).
-
Blobs opinion on whatever nerdy crap you two are pointlessly arguing about is correct!
-
I'll go with whoever gets me with this woman:
(https://scifisizzle.com/imagegallery/images/nicole_de_boer/nicole_de_boer_6.jpg)
-
Blobs opinion on whatever nerdy crap you two are pointlessly arguing about is correct!
YES, I HAVE BEEN VALIDATED!
And who ever said arguing on the internet wasn't worthwhile?
-
I disagree.
I think for at least the difference in distance, they would have had some kind of charts, enough to chart a moderately safe passage, and there would have been at least some Federation ships for the remainder of the trip from that point on. Then factor in that after decades, the Federation could have made advancements in warp technology, and been in radio contact with them much sooner than the full 70,000LY to help out in some way.
Considering Voyager was officially declared lost, had they gone for the wormhole, they would have been almost 100% guaranteed on their own until they hit the wormhole, because nobody knew they were lost in the DQ making the trip home.
And Voyager seemed to have very little info on the wormhole or probably the Gamma Quadrant. It would have been a gamble for them to head in the entirely wrong direction on the assumption this one wormhole was still going to be there in 60 years, since it was the only stable wormhole that they'd ever known to exist, and they didn't know anything about it. Had that not panned out, they just screwed themselves over by several decades by putting all of their eggs in one basket.
And either direction could have been Borg country. The Borg apparently had pretty big space in the DQ, big enough that they couldn't travel around it once they hit it on their direct AQ path, and as far as I recall, Voyager wouldn't have known where Borg space was exactly in advance anyway, since none of them had been there, so they couldn't have made an educated guess and let that influence their choice of travel from the start.
60K entirely alone in completely uncharted space vs 70K with charted space and potential help. The more I think about it, the more it's a no brainer for the AQ as far as I'm concerned.
The Federation was probably much more active exploring the Gamma Quadrant than the Delta. They had the wormhole to get there, and then there's that whole Borg situation again. And since they were declared lost, it's not like the federation was already heading their direction anyway. Honestly, they probably would have run into friendly ships more quickly in the Gamma quadrant.
As for the Borg in the Delta quadrant, Voyager knew where it was in relation to the Delta quadrant, and they were actually quite close to the Gamma quadrant. They might not have known where the Borg were exactly, but looking at any map would tell you that heading South gives you a very, very high probability of finding them, and West a much lower one. Ocampa, where they started, was at the outer edge at the one o'clock position. Their direct route would have taken them through the very center of the quadrant. The wormhole route would have had them outside of the delta quadrant very quickly.
-
Not to break up your galaxy quest here, but I'm on the 6th season of TNG and can only recall 2 episodes that I have seen so far that involve the holodeck malfunctioning. You got the one with Picard and the guys stuck in the Dixon hill novel, and the one I'm on now with Worf and the million Datas in the west. I don't count the Sherlock Holmes ones to be malfunctioning since they're not.
-
Not too sound geeky, but as a science geek I always found the whole Trill symbiont thing totally unbelievable. Why and how would a worm that lives in caves, and a humanoid species living on the surface, grow a symbiotic relationship with each other? Especially one that takes a difficult operation to perform.
rumborak
-
Not too sound geeky, but as a science geek I always found the whole Trill symbiont thing totally unbelievable. Why and how would a worm that lives in caves, and a humanoid species living on the surface, grow a symbiotic relationship with each other? Especially one that takes a difficult operation to perform.
rumborak
It's possible the surgery aspect of it only is modern and is the better way. Maybe the "worm" used to just slice its own way in or something.
-
Yeah, like the Ceti eel. The ST universe is full of organisms that take over host bodies. Hell, happens twice a season.
-
So now I'm watching Season 1 of DS9 and Season 6 of TNG at the same time since they run concurrently.
I have to say, the Quark/Odo dynamic is probably one of the best in any Star Trek ever.
-
I did a search and couldn't find this question. I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time. Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me. This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"? She clearly is not a man. LOL.
-
I did a search and couldn't find this question. I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time. Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me. This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"? She clearly is not a man. LOL.
I think it might be a navy or general military thing.
Edit: Looked it up, and I'm wrong. I dunno, either it's just a Roddenberry thing or it was Kirk's way of saying "listen, I'm not going to sleep with you so I might as well just consider you a man".
-
That's how I always interpreted it. Same as calling officers "Sir" whether they're male or female.
-
I did a search and couldn't find this question. I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time. Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me. This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"? She clearly is not a man. LOL.
I think it might be a navy or general military thing.
Edit: Looked it up, and I'm wrong. I dunno, either it's just a Roddenberry thing or it was Kirk's way of saying "listen, I'm not going to sleep with you so I might as well just consider you a man".
If I remember correctly, Mr. Saavik was intended to be cast as a male; they just didn't change it in the script once Kirstie Alley was cast. Also, someone posted this on another forum and it sounds possible.
My guess as to the reason behind Star Trek's calling ranking officers "Sir" and "Mister" regardless of gender is that it is to avoid sex discrimination in their military system. In other words, "Sir" and "Mister" have become non-gender-discriminatory terms because they are equally applicable to each sex. This fits in nicely with a number of the somewhat radical, for the time, social views expressed in the original series.
-
Karl Urban let slip that Cumberbatch is playing Gary Mitchell. Whether he's bullshitting or not remains to be seen.
-
I did a search and couldn't find this question. I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time. Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me. This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"? She clearly is not a man. LOL.
I believe they just minimized the use of gender specific pronouns. Same reason women were always called sir when their rank necessitated formal address. I'd consider it another example of life in Roddenberry's perfect utopia, where gender no longer matters.
Karl Urban let slip that Cumberbatch is playing Gary Mitchell. Whether he's bullshitting or not remains to be seen.
If it had anything whatsoever to do with WNMHGB, I'd be pretty cool with it. I thought it was a great episode, and Mitchell a great character. JJA will find new and terrible ways to screw an otherwise fine story up. Part of the appeal of the original was that Mitchell was good friends with Kirk, and to an extent, Spock. I'll bet right now he's just some guy they stumble across in the movie.
I'm right at the end of season 6 of Voyager, and there have been some noticeably weak episodes. Much like the seventh season was the absolute worst of TNG, I'm starting to think that there's a shelf-life for Star Trek franchises. You get to a point where you've told all the good stories, and you start having to reach. Introducing Borg kiddos seems like a pretty hefty shark-jumping moment.
-
Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.
But yea, I'm not sure where they'll take the Gary Mitchell thing. Maybe we'll even get a little reference to James R. Kirk hahaha.
-
The original episode was nothing special, so it's not like they're desecrating a classic like Khan or anything. Although I really wish they'd done something 100% original instead of needing to take ideas from a '60s television series.
-
Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.
Because he's the one that'll insist on multiple space battles and tons of explosions.
As for the original, it had a good psychological and ethical subtext. It also had somebody being necessitated to kill their good friend. It might not have been Wrath of Kahn, but it had all the components of a very good TOS episode, which some of us still appreciate.
-
Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.
Because he's the one that'll insist on multiple space battles and tons of explosions.
Probably. But ruining characters and horrible dialogue is Kurtzman and Orci's fault.
I'm not trying to defend Abrams by the way. I'm trying to raise awareness as to the horribleness of Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci who are clearly the most horrible writers in hollywood today.
-
Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.
Because he's the one that'll insist on multiple space battles and tons of explosions.
As for the original, it had a good psychological and ethical subtext. It also had somebody being necessitated to kill their good friend. It might not have been Wrath of Kahn, but it had all the components of a very good TOS episode, which some of us still appreciate.
Even for TOS I found it to be average at best. And the story was the typical scifi cliches of power being evil, and everyone fearing things beyond them. All it's missing is evil robots being yelled to death by Kirk's mighty human logic.
A ton of TOS episodes would have the potential to be great movies (I'd actually say the vast majority), but Where No Man Has Gone Before is pretty tired and simple, especially by today's standards. Maybe they wanted to avoid stepping on one of the really good ones though, so I'm hoping they go in a different direction with it.
-
I did a search and couldn't find this question. I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time. Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me. This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"? She clearly is not a man. LOL.
I think it might be a navy or general military thing.
Edit: Looked it up, and I'm wrong. I dunno, either it's just a Roddenberry thing or it was Kirk's way of saying "listen, I'm not going to sleep with you so I might as well just consider you a man".
If I remember correctly, Mr. Saavik was intended to be cast as a male; they just didn't change it in the script once Kirstie Alley was cast. Also, someone posted this on another forum and it sounds possible.
My guess as to the reason behind Star Trek's calling ranking officers "Sir" and "Mister" regardless of gender is that it is to avoid sex discrimination in their military system. In other words, "Sir" and "Mister" have become non-gender-discriminatory terms because they are equally applicable to each sex. This fits in nicely with a number of the somewhat radical, for the time, social views expressed in the original series.
Yeah, if that's the case then I believe it might have been an oversight in the script. She was also referred to as just "Saavik" and "Lieutenant Saavik" if my memory serves me correctly. IMO, "Mr." just sounds ridiculous and unnecessary. Oh well, I thought it was interesting.
-
Wow, saying it was an "oversight" or that they just didn't bother changing the script really sounds lame, and honestly, it has never even occurred to me that that might be the case. Even if the character was originally going to be male, no one noticed that they were calling an obviously female officer "Mister"? When they reviewed the dailies, no one said "What the hell? Why are they calling her 'Mister'?"
It had to have been intentional. She's Mr. Saavik enough times to make the point, Lt. Saavik most of the time, or just Saavik to Spock. There's no way that they oops forgot to change the script.
-
Man, Unimatrix Zero is just shit. Normally two part episodes are intended to be better than most and succeed, so it really bugs me when they're this bad (TNG was often guilty of that). It's full of plot holes. It's boring. It's got that stupid Borg Queen and it continues their pussification in a big way. It's only saving grace is that Anika Hansen is particularly hot, but that doesn't make up for 2 hours of stupidity.
You know, if you're going to send your captain and head of security officer over to a Borg cube, don't ya think changing their command codes would be the most basic, common sense thing that you think to do?
-
I've only skimmed it, but this seems an interesting read. Voyager Writer's Bible (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:92DI4O90ARAJ:leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Star_Trek/4_Voyager/Voyager_Bible.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShuxxL_UJyKfea6w_6CGu5uNyq8lDhpzy74TTzATo9ka1QjZi5nYQeuZcC7SqThgCwHKXdHEIc5lUZNLyx3SyCyicKFWUaGBdghYOyiTzcy7ohzmlVs--KT8pD5H_UluVi0bjfQ&sig=AHIEtbT_WGWdbKqW6xIz0y75T1acVFTXbw&pli=1)
It's mostly the character profiles, but it's interesting how some of the qualities changed, and some are exactly like the finished product. For the most part, they're very good descriptions of the principal characters.
Interestingly, Paris was intended to be Nick Lacarno. They changed his name, but his background was exactly the same. According to Memory-Alpha, they would have had to pay royalties to the writers of First Duty for every single episode Paris appeared in. Those guys just missed out on a nice payday.
-
I've only skimmed it, but this seems an interesting read. Voyager Writer's Bible (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:92DI4O90ARAJ:leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Star_Trek/4_Voyager/Voyager_Bible.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShuxxL_UJyKfea6w_6CGu5uNyq8lDhpzy74TTzATo9ka1QjZi5nYQeuZcC7SqThgCwHKXdHEIc5lUZNLyx3SyCyicKFWUaGBdghYOyiTzcy7ohzmlVs--KT8pD5H_UluVi0bjfQ&sig=AHIEtbT_WGWdbKqW6xIz0y75T1acVFTXbw&pli=1)
It's mostly the character profiles, but it's interesting how some of the qualities changed, and some are exactly like the finished product. For the most part, they're very good descriptions of the principal characters.
Awesomesauce
-
Turns out such documents for each series are available here. They all seem to be oriented towards the premiers. It'd be interesting to see if such a thing existed for something like the Dominion War, or if it was made up completely as they went along.
https://startrek.orbs.com/Series+Guides
-
They figured out the Dominion, and basics of the Dominion War, while working on season 2. Up to that point they had left if open to see where the series was going.
-
There is a rumour that Cumberbatch is playing Gary Mitchell in the Star Trek Sequel - so today I watched
" Where No Man Has Gone Before. "
Not a bad episode. Would need a lot more story to make a movie out of it. If he has God powers - how do you gain an advantage ?
The actor playing Gary Mitchell was really good though. Almost looked like the actor who played bones in Star Trek 2009 !
-
We discussed that a couple of pages ago. I think it's a very good episode, but I have no confidence in the current group's ability to make it work.
-
I just watched the Star Trek reboot again...and I just have to say...as an old school fan who grew up with TOS...
The new movie is absolutely a stroke of genius. I was *REALLY* skeptical. Especially since I'm not the biggest fan of all of JJ's work. Some of his stuff has been great, some not so great. But he absolutely hit a home run with the Star Trek reboot.
The biggest stroke of genius of all was the new timeline. The thing that made me skeptical about the reboot in the first place was trying to live up to the canon. But let's face it...the existing canon had become the proverbial "white elephant in the room". The Star Trek "canon" had become such a big deal with fans, that it had completely stifled creativity. You couldn't just write good stories because you constantly had to worry about whether or not you were staying within the lines of "canon"....
JJ's move to just *COMPLETELY THROW OUT* the "canon" was nothing short of brilliant. Now that the white elephant is out of the room, he can write anything he wants...no rules, no boundaries. I LOVE IT!
I can't wait for the next movie. JJ has earned my complete confidence. This reboot is now my #3 all time greatest Star Trek film, and may be single handedly responsible for pushing Star Trek past Star Wars once and for all.
-
You know, I'd never thought of it that way, but it does solve that particular problem, doesn't it? I'll agree that it was a clever move, but since I only found the movie okay, I have to stop short of calling it brilliant.
-
I just watched the Star Trek reboot again...and I just have to say...as an old school fan who grew up with TOS...
The new movie is absolutely a stroke of genius. I was *REALLY* skeptical. Especially since I'm not the biggest fan of all of JJ's work. Some of his stuff has been great, some not so great. But he absolutely hit a home run with the Star Trek reboot.
The biggest stroke of genius of all was the new timeline. The thing that made me skeptical about the reboot in the first place was trying to live up to the canon. But let's face it...the existing canon had become the proverbial "white elephant in the room". The Star Trek "canon" had become such a big deal with fans, that it had completely stifled creativity. You couldn't just write good stories because you constantly had to worry about whether or not you were staying within the lines of "canon"....
JJ's move to just *COMPLETELY THROW OUT* the "canon" was nothing short of brilliant. Now that the white elephant is out of the room, he can write anything he wants...no rules, no boundaries. I LOVE IT!
I can't wait for the next movie. JJ has earned my complete confidence. This reboot is now my #3 all time greatest Star Trek film, and may be single handedly responsible for pushing Star Trek past Star Wars once and for all.
I know we're in the minority, but I agree with this post entirely.
-
I just watched the Star Trek reboot again...and I just have to say...as an old school fan who grew up with TOS...
The new movie is absolutely a stroke of genius. I was *REALLY* skeptical. Especially since I'm not the biggest fan of all of JJ's work. Some of his stuff has been great, some not so great. But he absolutely hit a home run with the Star Trek reboot.
The biggest stroke of genius of all was the new timeline. The thing that made me skeptical about the reboot in the first place was trying to live up to the canon. But let's face it...the existing canon had become the proverbial "white elephant in the room". The Star Trek "canon" had become such a big deal with fans, that it had completely stifled creativity. You couldn't just write good stories because you constantly had to worry about whether or not you were staying within the lines of "canon"....
JJ's move to just *COMPLETELY THROW OUT* the "canon" was nothing short of brilliant. Now that the white elephant is out of the room, he can write anything he wants...no rules, no boundaries. I LOVE IT!
I can't wait for the next movie. JJ has earned my complete confidence. This reboot is now my #3 all time greatest Star Trek film, and may be single handedly responsible for pushing Star Trek past Star Wars once and for all.
Not only that but having Old Spock as the key tho the whole thing was like saying " We can't have our new timeline WITHOUT classic trek "
PLUS
It appeals to non Trekkers as it's a new timeline BUT appeases old Trek fans as it's not just trampling over everything that's come before.
I thought it was really smart personally.
My Second Favourite Trek after Khan. :)
Star Trek 2009 was certainly a fuck load better than The Phantom Menace :lol :lol
-
It isn't the timeline thing that's the issue. That was actually a creative solution to a real problem. What screwed it all up was turning it into an action movie, rather than sci-fi. I blame JJ Abrams. Others here blame the writers. Honestly, they're all to blame. The premise was sound, but it was a pretty crappy movie overall.
-
Well most people say Star Trek is boring slow and stuffy. For once we got an exciting Trek movie that wasn't just spouting directives and board meetings.
It's a new version of Trek.
I've been a Trekker since I was tiny and I didn't have any issues with it. It was so much fun on the big screen.
-
You know, when it came out in 2009 it was well received. It's only here that I've read a larger group of fans not really liking the reboot.
-
My thoughts on it from the original discussion.
As for the reboot: J.J Abrams must die. I really want to like it more than I do. I think they could be onto something with it. The casting was great. I liked the story and even Captain Nero. I don't have a problem with the new timeline, although multiple canons will get confusing after a while. It was just a horrible mess of story telling. Abram's entire plan seemed to be throwback references and action sequences. A lot of the references were actually pretty amusing, but got stale fairly quickly. As for the action sequences, much like plenty of other modern action flicks, so chaotic that they made no sense whatsoever. I don't understand why they spend 20 million dollars on a CGI scene that happens so fast you can't even tell who's shooting at what.
And I think that's largely a function of what I dislike most about Abram's style with this. It's shot to appear like you're in the middle of it. It's Star Trek for the realty television segment. Hand held cameras, shaking all hell over the place, and multiple lens flairs in every scene, as if they had no control over the lighting. I want to see the story unfold, not be a part of it. It used to be that immersion came from the story, and good filmmakers knew that their role should be to stay the fuck out the way. Shame that's no longer the case.
I suspect every one of us that frequents this thread would rank Kahn as the best of the ST movies. It was wonderful story telling, and didn't try to force you to be a part of it. You cared about the characters and you were interested in the story. Imagine if Kahn had been filmed by JJA, in the modern style. Think about the two major battles in TWoK. You've got Reliant bushwhacking Enterprise, and the battle of Mutara Nebula. There was tension there. There were people worried, scared and trying to think under pressure. There were discussions about tactics. Even though you were external to it all, you still felt every bit of the tension. All of that was replaced by chaos in the reboot. No talk. No tactics. No tension. Just a shitload of explosions and lasers flying all over the place.
Slow and deliberate isn't necessarily boring. Fast and flashy isn't necessarily exciting. In this case, Nick Meyer got it and JJ Abrams didn't. As an interesting example of how well those things worked, I suspect that all of us here can recall the music during both of those Khan battles. Does the reboot's music ring any bells?
-
Actually, for all the flaws of the new movie, the soundtrack is amazing. Can't remember the music for the battles from Khan, although I do like the soundtrack and I can recall the theme very easily off the top of my head (and Khan is my favourite Trek movie).
-
I liked the movie but it seemed more like a generic-scifi-hollywood-action-movie-3887878th rather than have a feeling of being Star Trek.
-
I actually loved the Score for ST2009.
The scene where the shuttles were escaping from the Kelvin and the main title comes up is simply amazing with THAT score.
-
RE: Khan battle scenes....
I would say there was a bit of both. I will confess that it would be nice to see a bit of that comeback. But Khan was not ALL tension...it was tension and release. It was tension when they were hunting each other, and then sudden CHAOS when they found each other.
(and Khan is my #2 film. Insurrection is my all-time favorite for very personal reasons. I have *no idea* why people hate on that film. I thought it was every bit as good, and even better than First Contact)
-
First Contact is my favourite of the TNG movies, but I've always found Insurrection to be underrated, and I like it. It's a bit more of a low key movie, and probably wasn't the best follow up to the success of FC, but it's not a bad movie at all.
I understand the argument that people feel it's more like a double episode than a movie, and that's a valid enough point I suppose, but in itself I still enjoy it. I'd probably rank it around middle of the pack. Not one of the best, but far from the worst.
-
I suspect every one of us that frequents this thread would rank Kahn as the best of the ST movies.
Undiscovered Country. ...or don't I frequent this thread enough?
-
Same point applies. Compare the scene with the two guys assassinating Gorkon to Kirk and Sulu assaulting that big drill thing. One's deliberate and methodical and builds tension. Ones 4 minutes of falling, screaming, sword fighting, falling some more, then a sudden rescue.
-
Lets list the problems with Nemesis here !!!
1. How about - having an action director who knew nothing about Trek at all ? :biggrin: Great !!
2.It's a blatant Khan rip-off !!!
-
It was a blatant Khan rip off? You lost me, I never noticed.
-
Not sure if sarcasm due to absolutely blatant khan copying.. ?
1.Genetically engineered villain.
2.Massive weapon that destroys whatever it touches.
3.Death of crew member.
4.Download of aforementioned crew members psyche into new host.
5.Battle in a nebula at the end.
6.The mention of Romulan Ale.
I can't think of any others right this minute but there are more.
-
The mention of Romulan Ale? :lol
I get similarities between the two, but I don't think it was a blatant rip off. Some things are just plot devices you see all over sci-fi, i.e. dying character having mind saved or natural settings to disable technology.
-
Lets list the problems with Nemesis here !!!
1. How about - having an action director who knew nothing about Trek at all ? :biggrin: Great !!
Like JJ Abrams?
-
There was SO MUCH wrong with Nemesis, I don't even know where to begin. It wasn't even a mildly intriguing villain.
The shorter list would be what was right about Nemesis...and to be honest, I can't think of a one. I honestly never thought a ST movie could be *THAT BAD*... The Phantom Menace had more positive things than Nemesis did.
It's the only ST film that I would place *below* the Star Wars prequels. It's THAT BAD.
-
Lets list the problems with Nemesis here !!!
1. How about - having an action director who knew nothing about Trek at all ? :biggrin: Great !!
Like JJ Abrams?
No. JJ is a renowned trek fan. He's hardly an out and out action director like Michael Bay or Stuart Baird.
-
There was SO MUCH wrong with Nemesis, I don't even know where to begin. It wasn't even a mildly intriguing villain.
The shorter list would be what was right about Nemesis...and to be honest, I can't think of a one. I honestly never thought a ST movie could be *THAT BAD*... The Phantom Menace had more positive things than Nemesis did.
It's the only ST film that I would place *below* the Star Wars prequels. It's THAT BAD.
I enjoyed it in the cinema though and I still think Final Frontier is worse.
-
Was Nemesis the one where Data was destroyed, but only after he happened to have made a backup of himself? And there just happened to be another chassis around (I think it was named "B4" but I may be mistaken) which somehow didn't work properly or something? I don't remember all the details since I only saw it once and haven't bothered with it since. But it seemed pretty obvious to me that they were going to "resurrect" Data by loading Data's backup into it.
Which is pretty much what they did with Spock in the TOS movies. His Khatra in McCoy was his "backup" and they ended up reloading it into Spock's regenerated body. Also Data was essentially TNG's Spock character, so yeah, lots of parallels.
-
There was SO MUCH wrong with Nemesis, I don't even know where to begin. It wasn't even a mildly intriguing villain.
The shorter list would be what was right about Nemesis...and to be honest, I can't think of a one. I honestly never thought a ST movie could be *THAT BAD*... The Phantom Menace had more positive things than Nemesis did.
It's the only ST film that I would place *below* the Star Wars prequels. It's THAT BAD.
Funny, I agree with Nemesis being bad, but each time I saw it I left feeling like it should have been good. I don't know, to me it feels like a movie that at one time was good but went horribly wrong at some point.
I also think Final Frontier is worse, and maybe even a couple of others challenge Nemesis. Star Trek isn't exactly stocked with great movies.
-
I remember seeing the first trailer for it and it looked totally amazing like First Contact. Really dark and with great action.
-
No kidding, Nemesis was probably the most hyped I ever got over a Star Trek movie.
-
Great Star Trek Movies :
Star Trek ( love it )
Wrath Of Khan
Voyage Home
Undiscovered Country
First Contact
Good Star Trek Movies :
The Motion Picture - it's slow but it's got a good story.
Insurrection
Generations ( I loved it )
Meh Movies :
Search For Spock
Final Frontier
Nemesis
So about 8 pretty good movies to 3 poor ones.
Compared to Star Wars - 3 pretty good movies and 3 dreadful ones.
-
Good Star Trek Movies :
Generations ( I loved it )
I love Generations, too, kind of. I've probably said it in this thread already, but I think it's a great movie if you ignore the middle third or so.
-
I was probably about 15 when Generations came out and seeing it in the cinema was an absolute joy.
It was just so much grander than a TNG episode.
It had this great cinematic feel and the score was amazing.
One of my greatest cinema memories.
:)
-
Good Star Trek Movies :
Generations ( I loved it )
I love Generations, too, kind of. I've probably said it in this thread already, but I think it's a great movie if you ignore the middle third or so.
The whole movie is basically one giant plot hole. Does ignoring the middle third fix that?
-
Good Star Trek Movies :
Generations ( I loved it )
I love Generations, too, kind of. I've probably said it in this thread already, but I think it's a great movie if you ignore the middle third or so.
The whole movie is basically one giant plot hole. Does ignoring the middle third fix that?
I just mean I love watching the beginning and end parts of the movie. I don't worry about it too much beyond that. Sometimes it's better for a story to ignore the problems than to try to explain them all away, especially so with anything involving manipulation of time.
-
Wrapping up Voyager today. Nothing left but Endgame, which I'll wait to watch until I have time. Overall, pleasantly surprised. For the most part very good television. Even the last season, which was generally weaker than the rest, was still pretty good.
One of the things I remembered as a low point was the whole Chakotay/Seven thing. It would appear that's never in play until Endgame. Thank God for that. I had associated it with the horrible, stupid, fucking Worf fucking Troi bullshit.
I'll start Enterprise here pretty soon. Hopefully, like Voyager, it far exceed my expectations. Gotta say, rewatching these franchises has changed quite a few of my opinions.
In a perfect world, somebody would have uploaded all of Enterprise with that horrible opening song edited out of each episode.
-
This probably doesn't even need to be said, but really go into Enterprise with zero expectations.
The first two seasons are pretty dull and derivative, and watchable at best. S3 and 4 are where everyone agrees it improved, although I personally find S4 to be fanwank that pillages all it can from previous series, especially TOS, and shoehorns them in really poorly. S3 is the highlight of the series for me.
While I didn't hate Enterprise like many people, it's still easily the worst series.
-
Good Star Trek Movies :
Generations ( I loved it )
I love Generations, too, kind of. I've probably said it in this thread already, but I think it's a great movie if you ignore the middle third or so.
The whole movie is basically one giant plot hole. Does ignoring the middle third fix that?
If I was Picard in the Nexus _ i'd have at least stayed in the Nexus and had some fun before leaving. And even then I wouldn't go back to Veridian iii - i'd maybe go back to some point way before that and just stop him when it was really easy. :D
Although - how do we know that the Veridian iii Picard and Kirk go back to is not just an alternate reality ?
I like to think that Soran and Kirk are still in the Nexus being happy.
But i'm just a mushy kinda guy :blush
-
My favourite with Generations is the sun missile. Soran went to a lot of trouble hiding it's awfully powerful warp drive. ...not to mention if it did go to warp the franchise has established that as a high risk proposition.
edit: Basically, that whole moment goes down visually so wrong that you have to ignore it. Star Trek isn't trying to be hard sci-fi. The scene was clearly done for cinematic effect so it's easy to shrug off. Trying to visualize to audiences how the missile strike and subsequent star's collapse actually would have looked on Veridian III would have done nothing but distract from the movie. Most of the audience probably isn't worried about the realities of the speed of light. Heck, trying to visualize it realistically might even send half the audience claiming they did a bogus job, I remember tons of people exiting Nemesis lampooning the script writers for saying RNA, i.e. there is no such thing as RNA, it's DNA. :facepalm:
-
Watching so much DS9 lately, fuck me for saying it was shit earlier. Think I have a mild crush on Jadzia and maybe Major Kira lol
-
I'm most of the way through season 1 of Enterprise. It's not bad, it's just rarely good. For all of it's faults, TNG was never boring. Stupid at times, but usually entertaining enough. Often, Enterprise is just plain dull. One of the biggest contributors to that is T'Pol. She really needed to lighten up a little. Instead, she's just the ice queen. Spock certainly had the cold, logical Vulcan thing down pat, but you also got a sense that he actually liked the people he worked with. With T'Pol, bitterly annoyed (as opposed to seething hatred) is about the best you can hope for.
-
GREAT Star Trek movies:
Wrath of Khan
The Voyage Home
The Undiscovered Country
First Contact
Insurrection
Star Trek
Good Star Trek movies:
The Motion Picture
The Search for Spock
The Final Frontier (it was the worst at the time, but it's grown on me. "What does God need with a starship?")
Generations
F*(&^ING TERRIBLE Star Trek movies:
Nemesis
-
I'm most of the way through season 1 of Enterprise. It's not bad, it's just rarely good. For all of it's faults, TNG was never boring. Stupid at times, but usually entertaining enough. Often, Enterprise is just plain dull. One of the biggest contributors to that is T'Pol. She really needed to lighten up a little. Instead, she's just the ice queen. Spock certainly had the cold, logical Vulcan thing down pat, but you also got a sense that he actually liked the people he worked with. With T'Pol, bitterly annoyed (as opposed to seething hatred) is about the best you can hope for.
Spock had a subtle dry wit to him that made him such a breakout character, especially with his dynamic with McCoy/Kirk, and he was a fairly sociable guy for a Vulcan. Even Tuvok had some good one-liners with a subtle bitchy edge, and was a bit of a badass for a Vulcan, and even though he was pretty cold too, he had a good dynamic with other characters like Neelix.
Enterprise never had a very good dynamic between the characters, and T'Pol was a crummy Vulcan anyway. She always looked like she was on the verge of tears for some reason. I think most of the Vulcans on the show were pretty bad, actually.
Expect S2 to be along the same lines, maybe marginally better. S3 and S4 are very different, both to the first seasons, and to each other. I think you'll find S3 much better (although you may still find it pretty soft), and I suspect you may dislike S4 as much as I do, although it seems most fans consider it the best of the bunch.
-
I actually like the way they portray the Vulcans in general. They wouldn't have liked humans at first and we would have resented that. It's just T'Pol that's a problem, and mainly because they're relying on her to be a central character along with the other two.
My recollection is that while season 3 had a nifty story going, it was still at times quite dull. I didn't care much for the conclusion of the story arc, either. In fact, the one episode I remember as being better than most was one that didn't fit into the Xindi plot at all. Something about Archer deciding to mug Damar, leaving him with no warp drive. Star Trek was always best when dealing with matters of ethics. As long as they avoid getting too preachy, like TNG and the afterschool specials, they were always the best episodes, IMO. Haven't seen much of that thus far.
-
Well that episode still was part of the Xindi plot, since they had to get their ship running in time to make the deadline, which is why the dilemma existed in the first place, otherwise they wouldn't have considered robbing the other ship. They can't have every episode right in the thick of it.
And why am I not the least bit surprised that you didn't like the conclusion of the story arc, or that you like the Vulcans in the show. :lol
-
A couple of funny thoughts occured to me this week. :biggrin:
1. Nimoy is the only actor from the original pilot who ended up in TOS & he's in the most recent movie.
He's probably been in more Trek than any of the others if you count his appearance in that two-parter of TNG that he was in ( the name of which escapes me . . right now )
2.In Star trek ( 2009 ) - George Kirk saves his son from dying by sacrificing himself and Mrs kirk doesn't even call him Jams George Kirk :lol
BURRRRN :flame:
-
1. Nimoy is the only actor from the original pilot who ended up in TOS & he's in the most recent movie.
He's probably been in more Trek than any of the others if you count his appearance in that two-parter of TNG that he was in ( the name of which escapes me . . right now )
Majel Barrett
-
Ah but I meant from the bridge crew. Sorry. Shoulda clarified. :)
Yeah She is pretty much Star Trek :biggrin:
Too bad they couldn't use her voice on the new Star Trek movies.
-
A couple of funny thoughts occured to me this week. :biggrin:
1. Nimoy is the only actor from the original pilot who ended up in TOS & he's in the most recent movie.
He's probably been in more Trek than any of the others if you count his appearance in that two-parter of TNG that he was in ( the name of which escapes me . . right now )
But TOS only did like 88 episodes, while every other series did 170 or so. And the movies are only the equivalent of 3 episodes or so each. Nimoy is certainly the longest spanning though, both in timeline and in real time. (oh yeah, Majel Barrett too)
2.In Star trek ( 2009 ) - George Kirk saves his son from dying by sacrificing himself and Mrs kirk doesn't even call him Jams George Kirk :lol
BURRRRN :flame:
Especially after he said how terrible the name Tiberius is, just before dying for her. What a bitch. :lol
-
For live action bulk I think Michael Dorn must have it covered. At least 5 movies and 11 main cast seasons.
-
Ha! Did anyone see today's google doodle?
-
Ha! Did anyone see today's google doodle?
I only just unblocked the Google homepage image after seeing it mentioned on the Star Trek FB page. And I also only just noticed it was interactive.
Anyone else notice the tribbles yet? :lol And they even copied the stupid soft focus effect that TOS always did on female close-ups. :lol
-
I think they did a very awesome job to pay homage.
-
Ha! Did anyone see today's google doodle?
I only just unblocked the Google homepage image after seeing it mentioned on the Star Trek FB page. And I also only just noticed it was interactive.
Anyone else notice the tribbles yet? :lol And they even copied the stupid soft focus effect that TOS always did on female close-ups. :lol
All tv and movies from that era did that soft focus close up though :P It's f--in hilarious.
-
Ha! Did anyone see today's google doodle?
I only just unblocked the Google homepage image after seeing it mentioned on the Star Trek FB page. And I also only just noticed it was interactive.
Anyone else notice the tribbles yet? :lol And they even copied the stupid soft focus effect that TOS always did on female close-ups. :lol
All tv and movies from that era did that soft focus close up though :P It's f--in hilarious.
Well I can't say I watch a lot of other TV that old, but it looks ridiculous how none of the close-ups remotely match the wide shots. Even the backgrounds randomly change. :lol
Whoever made this Google homage obviously knew their stuff though.
-
The red uniform letter doesn't do anything on the away mission but get hit with things. At least it didn't die.
-
Awesome, they definitely chose one of the most iconic episodes for the away mission.
That episode was also the basis for the conversation in Galaxy Quest:
"Look around you, are there any materials you could use to build a rudimentary lathe?"
-
How do you get it to be interactive? When I click on it, it just goes to a Search page for Star Trek.
-
How do you get it to be interactive? When I click on it, it just goes to a Search page for Star Trek.
Click on the turbolift...
-
There's certain items that you can click on.
-
Once again, I am forced to profess my undying love for Google.
-
Argh. Figures that none of the interactive stuff works in Internet Explorer. In Google Chrome, it obviously all works flawlessly.
-
Argh. Figures that none of the interactive stuff works in Internet Explorer. In Google Chrome, it obviously all works flawlessly.
If you have an iGoogle start page, you have to log out. The only way to get the interactivity for me was to log out and go to the generic www.google.com page. That shows you the full sized doodle, as opposed to the small one.
-
So it seems that the new Star Trek movie is called Star Trek Into Darkness.
Not sure if it's Star Trek Into Darkness or Star Trek: Into Darkness.
Either way I do not think it is a very good title.
-
That's a terrible name. It doesn't even flow to say it.
-
So it seems that the new Star Trek movie is called Star Trek Into Darkness.
Not sure if it's Star Trek Into Darkness or Star Trek: Into Darkness.
Either way I do not think it is a very good title.
source?
-
So it seems that the new Star Trek movie is called Star Trek Into Darkness.
Not sure if it's Star Trek Into Darkness or Star Trek: Into Darkness.
Either way I do not think it is a very good title.
source?
Here's one, https://insidemovies.ew.com/2012/09/10/star-trek-into-the-darkness-sequel-title/
Or you can go to JJ Abrams official site about it at www.lens-flair.com/new-star-trek-into-darkness
-
My wife for some godawful reason loved the Star Trek 2009 movie (she's not nearly the trekkie I am though, so it's probably the Chris Pine effect), so I'm thinking of boycotting the new movie just to see what kind of reaction I get out of her. I want to use El Barto's excellently worded crtitique of the first movie as my defense :lol.
-
Some titles sound weird at first but they grow to make sense after seeing the film / listening to the album.
As long as I enjoy the film - I don't really mind what it's called.
Although I was kinda hoping for simply :
" Where No One Has Gone Before "
-
"Will the movie be a Star Trek take on Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness?" asks Nathan Birch at Uproxx. It's not as crazy as it might sound. The 1902 novella tells the story of "a crew sailing a boat into unsettling new territory in search of a man who's gone dangerously mad with power and set himself up as a God." If you update the setting from Africa to space, and change the main character to Captain Kirk, it "pretty much sounds like a Star Trek plot already."
Gary Mitchell ? ? ?
This is a great theory for the title.
-
I don't really have any negative reaction to the title.
-
Nor do i.
It's interesting. It's better than something like
" Star Trek 2 : To Boldly Go "
-
"Will the movie be a Star Trek take on Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness?" asks Nathan Birch at Uproxx. It's not as crazy as it might sound. The 1902 novella tells the story of "a crew sailing a boat into unsettling new territory in search of a man who's gone dangerously mad with power and set himself up as a God." If you update the setting from Africa to space, and change the main character to Captain Kirk, it "pretty much sounds like a Star Trek plot already."
Gary Mitchell ? ? ?
This is a great theory for the title.
That is an interesting theory. Though, I don't really like it much as a plot device for Gary Mitchell. I can easily see how they'd make it work, but part of what made WNMHGB a good episode is that they were watching him change and had to decide how to handle it. If they just want a rogue captain off causing trouble, it could just as easily be Captains Tracy or Garth.
-
So I realized how interesting the idea was of having a Romulan officer on the Defiant full time. They introduced the initial Romulan as someone who had a permanent purpose to maintain.
However after the two parter she was gone and no Romulan came back. I think having a Romulan officer on the Defiant during all missions would have made an excellent dynamic that they sadly passed up.
Imagine Worf and a Romulan having to serve together. Would have been amazing.
-
I assume she just got killed or something, but yeah, missed opportunity there.
I also like how the Defiant's very first order of business is to get the shit kicked out of it. :lol
-
I assume she just got killed or something, but yeah, missed opportunity there.
I also like how the Defiant's very first order of business is to get the shit kicked out of it. :lol
Nope she lived. Just never came back.
-
It is a rather awkward unexplained element in DS9. Maybe the Federation decided to fess up that they knew all the secrets already, so a guard was a complete waste for the loaner. :p. Maybe the Romulans installed a bomb set to detonate on any tampering.
-
Huh. I forgot all about her. There was another Romulan chick that had a run-in with Kira. Something about arming a medical otupost, IIRC. Was that the same one?
-
Huh. I forgot all about her. There was another Romulan chick that had a run-in with Kira. Something about arming a medical otupost, IIRC. Was that the same one?
I doubt it. The Romulan from the defiant went on to play seska on voyager.
-
I know the Defiant's Romulan was intended to be a recurring character, hence the detailed introduction. They just changed their minds after finishing The Search. I guess they felt they backed themselves into a corner and decided to ignore the problem. The character was never even referenced again.
The Romulan, Cretak, that had the run-in with Kira was also a permanent post on DS9. She did show up again in a Section 31 episode. Bashir was tricked into seeking her aid, which got her something like a court martial. She was present and active on the station for that whole period, just never on screen. A 15 or so episode gap isn't bad for a minor character.
-
So I have a problem with the appearance of the Founders. Odo looks the way he does because he tried (and failed) to look like the Bajoran's. His face is the result of not having the ability to mimic a human face and his hair is styled after the Bajoran's who worked with him.
The Founders on the other hand had never met the Bajoran's. They also clearly have the ability to perfectly mimic just about any humanoid they want. Yet they all look just like Odo.
Seems odd.
-
So I have a problem with the appearance of the Founders. Odo looks the way he does because he tried (and failed) to look like the Bajoran's. His face is the result of not having the ability to mimic a human face and his hair is styled after the Bajoran's who worked with him.
The Founders on the other hand had never met the Bajoran's. They also clearly have the ability to perfectly mimic just about any humanoid they want. Yet they all look just like Odo.
Seems odd.
That bothered the hell out of me.
Every single species in the Gamma Quadrant instantly recognized Odo as a founder/changeling even without him morphing, even though the Founders only took on that form after seeing Odo, and hadn't really shown themselves in person until then.
And why did they all stick to the form of Odo? As you said, he only looked like that because he sucked as a changeling, but the more experienced ones had no problem taking on the form of Kira, or a Romulan in other episodes. They had no natural humanoid form, but if they had ever used a humanoid form before Odo, it wouldn't have looked like him.
-
They were copying Odo to make him comfortable. As for recognition, I think the Dominion species are implied to be able to know changelings. Not every species recognizes him, just the Vorta and Jem;Hadar, right?
-
They were copying Odo to make him comfortable.
At all times? They looked the way they did all the time unless they specifically looked like someone else.
Why would they care about making Odo comfortable when he wasn't there?
Also Blob pointed out that those who recognized Odo as a shapeshifter shouldn't have.
-
The female changeling said somewhere in the series they chose to mimic Odo's look. Not every species recognized Odo as a shapeshifter.
-
The female changeling said somewhere in the series they chose to mimic Odo's look. Not every species recognized Odo as a shapeshifter.
I don't remember her saying that. But she may have.
And most species never met Shape shifters. But there were a few that did recognize him before we were introduced to the founders.
-
They might have just wanted their own humanoid appearance, rather than just using an arbitrary one like human or vorta.
And it seems like the people who recognized Odo did so by reputation more often than not. "Hey, I hear you're a changeling. Turn into a tree for me!"
-
They were copying Odo to make him comfortable.
At all times? They looked the way they did all the time unless they specifically looked like someone else.
Why would they care about making Odo comfortable when he wasn't there?
Also Blob pointed out that those who recognized Odo as a shapeshifter shouldn't have.
Yeah, the female changeling used that form around the Dominion all the time regardless of whether Odo was there, which leads me to believe she/they'd never really assumed their own humanoid form until Odo came around, and just settled on that for familiarity with their allies, such as the Cardassians and Vorta.
Which makes even less sense that they were always recognized as Founders/changelings. I recall it was mentioned that the Founders were rarely seen and almost a myth, and they despised solids, so it's doubtful they spent much time in humanoid form at all.
And yet Odo was recognized as a shapeshifter based purely on his appearance at several times when it made absolutely no sense. Perhaps not all the time, but there were definitely times when he was recognized when he definitely shouldn't have been.
-
I'm curious as to these instances. I remember by reputation and by Vorta and Jem;Hadar, but what other species simply knew he was a shapeshifter? After awhile the shapeshifters had become far more public figures, too.
-
Maybe they recognized him as a shapeshifter because they took one look at him and figured out that he was a shapeshifter, but a total failure at actual mimicry.
WTF? This guy looks like a bad attempt at humanoid. "So, you must be a shapeshifter."
-
Maybe they recognized him as a shapeshifter because they took one look at him and figured out that he was a shapeshifter, but a total failure at actual mimicry.
WTF? This guy looks like a bad attempt at humanoid. "So, you must be a shapeshifter."
:lol I'm not sure if that was a joke answer, but other shapeshifters could perfectly mimic other humanoid forms. And he could very well have just been another species. And it didn't seem that enough was known about the changelings for anyone to speculate like that anyway. They were an urban legend on some planets.
-
Why were the founders so mythical? ST in general has shown multiple shape shifting species before hand.
-
Why were the founders so mythical? ST in general has shown multiple shape shifting species before hand.
This was the Gamma Quadrant though, unlike most of Star Trek. Or do you mean to the crew of DS9 and Odo?
-
Why were the founders so mythical? ST in general has shown multiple shape shifting species before hand.
This was the Gamma Quadrant though, unlike most of Star Trek.
Touche sailor.
-
Was it ever established that Odo's appearance was his failed attempt at looking human? Maybe that's just the founder's normal human form, and Odo never tried to look like others because he knew he sucked at it.
-
It was pretty much a joke answer, but makes about as much sense as anything I could seriously think of. Really, there doesn't seem to be a good explanation for why Odo looks the way he does and how people of other species could tell right away.
-
Was it ever established that Odo's appearance was his failed attempt at looking human? Maybe that's just the founder's normal human form, and Odo never tried to look like others because he knew he sucked at it.
He has said multiple times that he tried and failed to look like the people who found him.
And unless you count his hair being totally identical to the one guy who worked with him as a pure coincidence then I think that adds to it.
-
He has said multiple times that he tried and failed to look like the people who found him.
That doesn't mean he's still trying, though. Maybe he tried and failed, and then went back to an innate humanoid appearance. And honestly, it really doesn't make much sense that after however many years, he still can't do any better than what we see.
-
He has said multiple times that he tried and failed to look like the people who found him.
That doesn't mean he's still trying, though. Maybe he tried and failed, and then went back to an innate humanoid appearance. And honestly, it really doesn't make much sense that after however many years, he still can't do any better than what we see.
Remember that episode where DS9 found their own descendants on a planet? Where their ship went back in time and crashed and blah blah blah? Well the much older Odo who survived the crash looked more human and said he finally got better at it.
-
Which still doesn't disprove my theory.
However, the writer's bible does:
But he cant quite get it right, this humanoid shape, though he continues to try. So he looks a little unfinished in a way. Hes been working on it a long time.
So, I'll go back to my original thought, which is that the founders just wanted a unique humanoid form of their own, so as not to look like anybody else. Odo provided one for them.
-
Huh? Odo flat out saying that generations after the events of DS9 took place, he was finally able to look more human with practice DOESN'T disprove the theory that he was always able to do it yet chose not to?
-
That was never the point I was trying to make. What I was suggesting was that he gave up his attempts to look like everybody else and settled on an innate humanoid appearance. I don't recall if it was necessarily implied that what we were seeing was his failed attempts to pass as human.
-
That was never the point I was trying to make. What I was suggesting was that he gave up his attempts to look like everybody else and settled on an innate humanoid appearance. I don't recall if it was necessarily implied that what we were seeing was his failed attempts to pass as human.
He said many many many times that he can't do it. Whether he tried every single day or just gave up is beside the point.
-
The question that was raised was how or why the founders settled on the same appearance as Odo. I proposed a plausible theory that what we're seeing is their natural humanoid form. Maybe they've always looked like that and Odo looks like that by default. We've just assumed that he looks that way because it's his failed attempt at looking human.
-
The question that was raised was how or why the founders settled on the same appearance as Odo. I proposed a plausible theory that what we're seeing is their natural humanoid form. Maybe they've always looked like that and Odo looks like that by default. We've just assumed that he looks that way because it's his failed attempt at looking human.
And he stated so many times. And it can't also be a coincidence that his hair is identical to the guy that found him.
-
Odo's hair is supposed to be a mimic of Dr. Mora's hair. When they introduced Mora they purposefully made his hair match what they had done for Odo.
The question that was raised was how or why the founders settled on the same appearance as Odo. I proposed a plausible theory that what we're seeing is their natural humanoid form. Maybe they've always looked like that and Odo looks like that by default. We've just assumed that he looks that way because it's his failed attempt at looking human.
As I said earlier, the Founders explicitly said they chose the form to match Odo and make him feel comfortable. The assumption from there is they just adopted it as a default form. ...and why not, Odo was one of their most important issues. Season 7 introduces another Alpha Quadrant changeling, he clearly wasn't forced into the Odo form naturally.
------------------
Can somebody give an example or two of aliens who just off the bat knew Odo was a changeling for no good reason?
-
I think that one guy did right? The one who had the necklace that turned into a key, that took Odo to look for his people but really just wanted to get his daughter.
-
He saw Odo shapeshift in Quarks before ever talking to him.
-
He saw Odo shapeshift in Quarks before ever talking to him.
Ohhh yea.
Well there was that one guy in that one episode. The one where that one race had that one problem and Odo showed up and they was all like "OMGZ A SHAPE SHIFTER!" and Odo said "Woah, how did you guys know I is a shape shifter?" and they said "CUZ U LOOK LIKE ONE FOOL!"
Remember? I think Levar Burton directed it.
-
Your description is exquisite.
-
Your description is exquisite.
I think it was a bonus online only webisode or something.
And yea, I can't recall any other guys who automatically knew Odo was a shifter.
Jeez, I really regret bringing up the point about his looks.
-
Odo's hair is supposed to be a mimic of Dr. Mora's hair. When they introduced Mora they purposefully made his hair match what they had done for Odo.
The question that was raised was how or why the founders settled on the same appearance as Odo. I proposed a plausible theory that what we're seeing is their natural humanoid form. Maybe they've always looked like that and Odo looks like that by default. We've just assumed that he looks that way because it's his failed attempt at looking human.
As I said earlier, the Founders explicitly said they chose the form to match Odo and make him feel comfortable. The assumption from there is they just adopted it as a default form. ...and why not, Odo was one of their most important issues. Season 7 introduces another Alpha Quadrant changeling, he clearly wasn't forced into the Odo form naturally.
I already conceded that my premise wasn't correct. I was must trying (quite unsuccessfully) to get Adami to see the logic of my point.
-
Sorry, I was lazy.
-
Your point just seemed to exist for the sake of arguing. You had logic on your side, just no probability so I didn't consider it.
-
The episode where they clone Trip so they can kill him later is on par with the best episodes from any of the series. Certainly the high water mark for Enterprise. Really good work. It's interesting that LeVar Burton directed some tremendously bad episodes, the last one he actually said he was ashamed of, and also some of the best. Just goes to show that writing is king, I suppose.
-
When watching S3 recently, that was definitely one of the standout episodes.
It's probably no coincidence that it heavily features Phlox, as I found he was usually the best in the show for conveying some actual emotion, and probably had the most personality and was the most likable.
I think he had the same impact in Terra Prime too.
-
:lol i can't contribute to this thread when you start talking about the series.
I only know TNG and the movies :P
-
When watching S3 recently, that was definitely one of the standout episodes.
It's probably no coincidence that it heavily features Phlox, as I found he was usually the best in the show for conveying some actual emotion, and probably had the most personality and was the most likable.
I think he had the same impact in Terra Prime too.
Star Trek is always at it's best when they're getting fucked by their own ethics. Because of his particular nature, Flox is awesome at presenting those sorts of situations. I love how for a doctor he's often so willing to let a person or an entire race die if he feels it's the right thing to do.
-
I'm watching the Voyager episode where the holodeck goes nuts and the doctor has to go in and fight a monster or something. So he has to get information on the program and starts reading all about it. So I start to wonder........why does the doctor have to read anything? He's the computer essentially. Information should be able to be immediately uploaded into his knowledge base, reading would be pointless.
Also, since I have finished TNG I have to say that it seems Voyager is responsible for the annoying holodeck malfunctioning episodes. TNG only had maybe 2 at most.
EDIT: This episode of Voyager, I think called Heroes and Demons has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. I don't think a single thing about this episode makes any sense at all.
-
Yeah, H&D was a pretty crappy episode all the way around.
TNG certainly had more than 2 crappy holodeck episodes. If you want to get nitpicky about what constitutes a malfunction or not, then there might only be a handful, but they damn sure found themselves stuck in danger holodeck situations all the time.
-
Yeah, H&D was a pretty crappy episode all the way around.
TNG certainly had more than 2 crappy holodeck episodes. If you want to get nitpicky about what constitutes a malfunction or not, then there might only be a handful, but they damn sure found themselves stuck in danger holodeck situations all the time.
It's amazing how touchy those safety protocols were, huh? :lol
Heroes and Demons was a pretty bad one.
One of my favourite holodeck malfunctions was "Our Man Bashir" from DS9. At least they gave a somewhat reasonable excuse to not just pull the damn plug. And the whole episode was just such blatant fun with its Bond parody that it didn't even matter if it was believable or not.
-
I thought the casino heist was better. I consider all holodeck episodes about the same, regardless of whether or not there's a problem, they're all going to die, or if it's just goofing off.
-
Yeah, H&D was a pretty crappy episode all the way around.
TNG certainly had more than 2 crappy holodeck episodes. If you want to get nitpicky about what constitutes a malfunction or not, then there might only be a handful, but they damn sure found themselves stuck in danger holodeck situations all the time.
So any episode that involves a holodeck is considered a holodeck gone wrong episode? Meh.
I don't consider the Sherlock Holmes episodes because the holodeck worked just fine. As did the ones with data's dreams and such. I mean you act like there dozens of holodeck gone wrong episodes but I can only recall 2-3 that actually involved a malfunctioning holodeck.
Voyager was definitely the aggressor with the holodeck problems.
-
I thought the casino heist was better. I consider all holodeck episodes about the same, regardless of whether or not there's a problem, they're all going to die, or if it's just goofing off.
The casino heist one was a good episode, aside from the fact I really had no motivation to care, since there was no real threat from what I recall. At least try to add some contrived threat of death or impending doom.
Of course then you could end up with another "Spirit Folk", the one and only episode of Star Trek that I couldn't even make it through the whole way, and that's even including some of the hilarious crap that TOS pumped out.
-
If the holodeck is trying to kick your ass, it's a holodeck malfunction. That seems simple enough. A quick perusal suggests:
TNG: The Big Goodbye, Elementary..., Ship in a Bottle, Emergence, Fistful of Datas
DS9: Our Man Bashir
Voy: Heroes and Demons, Bride of Chaotica, Spirit Folk
Spirit Folk was a pretty crappy episode, but it did have a few good laughs in it. That's one thing you can say about Voyager and holodeck episodes; they never take themselves too seriously. I'd take SF over FoD any day.
Wrapped up season three of Ent last night. I remembered thinking that the end of the Xindi plot kind of sucked. In fact, it wasn't bad at all. The problem is that rather than just ending it, they jump straight into the thing with the Nazis. Honestly, how many Nazi episodes does ST need? In this case, after an entire season, they really needed to allow some resolution to the Xindi situation.
-
I agree with you on that particular aspect of the Xindi storyline. While I love scifi cliffhangers, after a whole season of trying to save Earth's ass from the Xindi weapon, I felt it really needed closure there, rather than needing to wait until the next season long after the conclusion of the arc. But instead it was like BAM space nazis.
And I guess Trek does have a few Nazi episodes. TOS had Patterns of Force, Voyager had The Killing Game (a two part episode), and Enterprise had Storm Front (another two parter). Am I missing any? :lol
-
I agree with you on that particular aspect of the Xindi storyline. While I love scifi cliffhangers, after a whole season of trying to save Earth's ass from the Xindi weapon, I felt it really needed closure there, rather than needing to wait until the next season long after the conclusion of the arc. But instead it was like BAM space nazis.
I was getting back into Enterprise during the Xindi arc and starting to really enjoy the show. ...then, yeah, bam, Nazies, and I was done with Enterprise.
I thought the casino heist was better. I consider all holodeck episodes about the same, regardless of whether or not there's a problem, they're all going to die, or if it's just goofing off.
The casino heist one was a good episode, aside from the fact I really had no motivation to care, since there was no real threat from what I recall. At least try to add some contrived threat of death or impending doom.
The casino heist had a real threat to to a conscious AI, Vic. When you think about it, it's sort of cruel by the programmer to put that in, assuming he knew Vic would be sentient. It was also a send off episode for the whole cast, a group farewell to fans prior to the final push. Hence, certain shots were more series based, like the big cast walk in.
Our Man Bashir was not a malfunction of the holodeck, the holodeck was actually functioning fine in the episode. It was just being used outside it's normal function. Maybe they said the safeties were off to give some threat to Bashir and Garak, but the primary threat was to the holodeck 'forgetting' the transporter patterns of the crew member's bodies.
-
Call me cruel, but I really didn't care enough about Vic Fontaine for that to really make me care about the outcome of the episode. It felt like DS9 decided "me too" after Data and the Doc, but they just jumped straight to "this guy's sentient" part, which devalued it. I liked the character, but I still didn't care whether they succeeded or not.
-
They'd been trying to introduce Vic for many seasons. He was actually conceived for the show long prior to being written in. They wanted a Frank Sinatra to compliment the casino. I never thought of it as a "me too" to Data and Doc, but I can see that angle. Maybe I read too much scifi, but consciousness outside of biological body doesn't strike me as a particularly 'wow' device. It's just a common scifi theme which Star Trek somewhat downplays, as it's left to something more special than a broad occurrence.
-
I never really cared for Vic all that much. It was just a case of too much too late in the series' run. However, "It's Only A Paper Moon" (the Nog deals with losing his leg episode) is a pretty great episode and it's largely Vic-centric.
The Casino-heist episode was likely the low point of the last Season for me.
-
If the holodeck is trying to kick your ass, it's a holodeck malfunction. That seems simple enough. A quick perusal suggests:
TNG: The Big Goodbye, Elementary..., Ship in a Bottle, Emergence, Fistful of Datas
DS9: Our Man Bashir
Voy: Heroes and Demons, Bride of Chaotica, Spirit Folk
I wouldn't call Elementary or Ship in a Bottle a holodeck malfunction episode.
In fact, Ship in a Bottle was rather brilliant if I might say so myself.
-
If the holodeck is trying to kick your ass, it's a holodeck malfunction. That seems simple enough. A quick perusal suggests:
TNG: The Big Goodbye, Elementary..., Ship in a Bottle, Emergence, Fistful of Datas
DS9: Our Man Bashir
Voy: Heroes and Demons, Bride of Chaotica, Spirit Folk
I wouldn't call Elementary or Ship in a Bottle a holodeck malfunction episode.
In fact, Ship in a Bottle was rather brilliant if I might say so myself.
I thought they were both good episodes. I'm just saying that they're episodes where the holodeck is trying to kill them, and fussing about whether or not it's an according to Webster's malfunction is silly.
-
Lumping it together with holodeck malfunctions episode just because they involve the holodeck is silly.
However it doesn't matter. Even IF you count the episodes you do, then it still doesn't justify the common (among ST fans anyway) saying that they did way too many of them.
-
They probably did. But that applies to TNG as much as Voyager.
-
I never really cared for Vic all that much. It was just a case of too much too late in the series' run. However, "It's Only A Paper Moon" (the Nog deals with losing his leg episode) is a pretty great episode and it's largely Vic-centric.
The Casino-heist episode was likely the low point of the last Season for me.
I agreed on Vic, to a point. At some point I started enjoying his part more, he had some great moments. I like him more now that I am used to his part. His piece in Siege of AR-2112 also added wonderfully to the episode on top of setting up the fabulous It's Only a Paper Moon.
The casino-heist episode was a low point on multiple fronts, but it had some redeeming moments as part of the overall series. The implied cast send off (entrance to the heist) as well as Avery Brooks singing the duet are very memorable.
-
I also really liked Vic.
In fact one of my favorite DS9 moments was when they go to the Mirror Universe (which I usually hated) and Vic was there as a real person. It was just such a hilarious random statement by DS9 that they are able to not take them selves too seriously.
-
:lol
Yeah, the Mirror Vic was an amusing touch. The Mirror arc started out as something I loved but fell apart rather clumsily.
-
:lol
Yeah, the Mirror Vic was an amusing touch. The Mirror arc started out as something I loved but fell apart rather clumsily.
I mean it was cool in TOS and I think Enterprise did a cool thing with it since there was no crossing over involved (minus the physical ship). But DS9 just kept going back again and again. The only thing I took away from it is that apparently it's SUPER easy for anyone to go from one to the other.
Also the odds of every single person having been born in both universes is just too small to be considered. Which is why Vic was such a fun touch. It was like poking fun of the fact that every member of DS9 just happens to be in the same place in the other universe.
-
Well, that is the premise of the mirror universe. It's somehow a specially connected instance within a wide frame of a multiverse. All combinations of possibilities play out into some universe, but these two are connected because they play out the probabilities of biology and some sort of circumstance in lockstep, but otherwise opposite. For all intents and purposes, there is an infinite number of other universes where the people born are different from our universe, they just aren't easily accessible. It's not hard scifi, but they do have a basis in science for an explanation of the incredible odds encountered. If a full spectrum of parallel universes exist, there could be some wild ones like this.
-
From a probabilities perspective, the odds of having the mirror universe contain all of the DS9 characters that happened to be born to the same parents at the same time with the same name as the other universe has about as much chance of happening as Vic Fontaine being there.
-
Odds are meaningless with a basic multiverse theory All possibilities play out in some universe. You just establish your fictional multiverse so that this alternate reality is a possibility, then all you need is the contrivance that something naturally keeps "opposite/identical" universes connected.
-
Odds are meaningless with a basic multiverse theory All possibilities play out in some universe. You just establish your fictional multiverse so that this alternate reality is a possibility, then all you need is the contrivance that something naturally keeps "opposite/identical" universes connected.
But as far as I know there's just 2 universes shown and.........JESUS CHRIST I'M NOT THIS MUCH OF A NERD
So man I'd really bang the hell out of Leeta.
-
Oppan Klingon Style!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayMeza487M&feature=youtube_gdata_player
(Wait for Guinan)
-
In a Mirror Darkly was actually a pretty good premise. The problem is that Archer was wholly unbelievable as a psychopath. He was also terrible at acting the part. It almost sounded like he was trying to do a Klingon affectation. The thing with the Gorn was pretty contrived, as well; what I believe we're now calling fan-wank.
Still, the concept was pretty good, and it was certainly better than any of DS9 mirror universe episodes, if for no other reason than the pretty cool opening title sequence and the uber-slutty Hoshi Sato.
Not sure what I'll watch next. Star Trek has been great for watching out in the shop since it requires fairly little attention. I'd like to watch BG, but I think it'd require more attention that I can devote while working.
-
In a Mirror Darkly was actually a pretty good premise. The problem is that Archer was wholly unbelievable as a psychopath. He was also terrible at acting the part. It almost sounded like he was trying to do a Klingon affectation. The thing with the Gorn was pretty contrived, as well; what I believe we're now calling fan-wank.
Still, the concept was pretty good, and it was certainly better than any of DS9 mirror universe episodes, if for no other reason than the pretty cool opening title sequence and the uber-slutty Hoshi Sato.
I agree with every word of this. To me the whole season was hugely fan-wanky, which is why I mostly dislike it (don't get me started on the whole silly Klingon virus thing). Archer is just too neutered to pull off the angry side convincingly. And that Gorn looked terrible. And not terrible in the cool way like the original. :lol
Still, it would probably be my favourite episode(s) from S4.
-
Star Trek really screwed up the Klingon foreheads. They would have been better off ignoring it, and they missed a great oppurtunity to set that precedence on DS9. I always thought in the Tribbles episode they should have made Worf look like the classic Klingon whenever they were back in time, with nobody noticing. The allusion to the foreheads wasn't too bad in the episode since they thought leaving it unexplained was best, but that little joke they added probably only contributed to bringing about what they did in Enterprise.
-
Star Trek really screwed up the Klingon foreheads. They would have been better off ignoring it, and they missed a great oppurtunity to set that precedence on DS9. I always thought in the Tribbles episode they should have made Worf look like the classic Klingon whenever they were back in time, with nobody noticing. The allusion to the foreheads wasn't too bad in the episode since they thought leaving it unexplained was best, but that little joke they added probably only contributed to bringing about what they did in Enterprise.
Ye Gods! The bar scene with Worf and the other Klingons was the highlight of the episode. Between the ridges, the great tribble campaigns, and O'Brian wanting to buy Shatner's stunt double a drink, that comprised one of the best 10 minutes from DS9.
-
In a Mirror Darkly was actually a pretty good premise. The problem is that Archer was wholly unbelievable as a psychopath. He was also terrible at acting the part. It almost sounded like he was trying to do a Klingon affectation. The thing with the Gorn was pretty contrived, as well; what I believe we're now calling fan-wank.
Still, the concept was pretty good, and it was certainly better than any of DS9 mirror universe episodes, if for no other reason than the pretty cool opening title sequence and the uber-slutty Hoshi Sato.
I agree with every word of this. To me the whole season was hugely fan-wanky, which is why I mostly dislike it (don't get me started on the whole silly Klingon virus thing). Archer is just too neutered to pull off the angry side convincingly. And that Gorn looked terrible. And not terrible in the cool way like the original. :lol
Still, it would probably be my favourite episode(s) from S4.
While the stories have been hit or miss, and definitely fan wanky, as you said, I actually like S4. The idea of making all of the episodes mini-story arcs is pretty good. Gave them time to flesh things out, for better or for worse.
-
Star Trek really screwed up the Klingon foreheads. They would have been better off ignoring it, and they missed a great oppurtunity to set that precedence on DS9. I always thought in the Tribbles episode they should have made Worf look like the classic Klingon whenever they were back in time, with nobody noticing. The allusion to the foreheads wasn't too bad in the episode since they thought leaving it unexplained was best, but that little joke they added probably only contributed to bringing about what they did in Enterprise.
Ye Gods! The bar scene with Worf and the other Klingons was the highlight of the episode. Between the ridges, the great tribble campaigns, and O'Brian wanting to buy Shatner's stunt double a drink, that comprised one of the best 10 minutes from DS9.
Yeah, it wasn't bad for the episode, but it did solidify the notion that something needed to be explained within the universe. Had it never come up again that would have been great.
I wonder, if Klingons are in the new timeline what will they look like?
-
Star Trek really screwed up the Klingon foreheads. They would have been better off ignoring it, and they missed a great oppurtunity to set that precedence on DS9. I always thought in the Tribbles episode they should have made Worf look like the classic Klingon whenever they were back in time, with nobody noticing. The allusion to the foreheads wasn't too bad in the episode since they thought leaving it unexplained was best, but that little joke they added probably only contributed to bringing about what they did in Enterprise.
Ye Gods! The bar scene with Worf and the other Klingons was the highlight of the episode. Between the ridges, the great tribble campaigns, and O'Brian wanting to buy Shatner's stunt double a drink, that comprised one of the best 10 minutes from DS9.
Yeah, it wasn't bad for the episode, but it did solidify the notion that something needed to be explained within the universe. Had it never come up again that would have been great.
That was my issue with it too. It was a fun throwaway joke in itself, but unfortunately it acknowledged the difference in-universe, which shot themselves in the foot with the horrible mess in Enterprise to try and explain it. I was perfectly content with the fact that in the '60s they just couldn't do the complex makeup.
There were Klingons in a deleted scene from Star Trek XI, although they were wearing full face masks, so you saw nothing to answer that question that I'm aware of. Obviously they wouldn't go with the lame dirty face paint of TOS, so I expect it will be something like the later Klingons, but with a bit of a rougher and more realistic look, and hopefully just ignore the issue altogether. It's the only way it could be taken seriously at all.
-
It was a question that never needed to be answered. "We don't like to discuss it" is the best possible answer of all. I thought it was great.
As for the new era, they crafted it so that they can do whatever the hell they want. Make the Klingons bright pink for all it matters.
-
It was a question that never needed to be answered. "We don't like to discuss it" is the best possible answer of all. I thought it was great.
The best possible answer would have been to ignore the question altogether. As you said, the question never needed to be answered. In fact, it never needed to be raised at all. Once they acknowledge it, it means there's an in-universe reason for it. And there is no reason that makes sense, so we ended up with the convoluted mess of Enterprise.
Not that I'm blaming DS9's fun throwaway gag for the fact that Enterprise gave a shitty explanation by any means, but had they not even gone there, there wouldn't have been any reason to try at all.
They should have ignored it altogether, just like they ignored all of the other parts of TOS that made no sense or contradicted everything else.
-
Can somebody summarize what the explanation was? I'm familiar with Worf's remark on DS9, and thought it was brilliant, and that that should have been the end of it. But I likely will never watch Enterprise.
-
Can somebody summarize what the explanation was? I'm familiar with Worf's remark on DS9, and thought it was brilliant, and that that should have been the end of it. But I likely will never watch Enterprise.
Some garbage about Klingons trying genetic engineering to make themselves stronger, except it caused some problem where they would lose their ridges and alter their behaviour and make them weak. Basically the most convoluted BS to try and squeeze the square peg into the round hole so that the complete change in the Klingons after TOS was explained, except it just made it a complete mess.
They should have never mentioned it in DS9, even barring the Enterprise episodes though. Some things just shouldn't be pointed out. I didn't see Sisko asking why the Enterprise looked like a tacky colourful wooden set. Fitting TOS into the rest of Trek canon requires shrugging off when you're going to stick them side by side, so they should have just left it alone.
-
I also think Worf's comments were the best way to handle it. When you have a modern Klingon come face to face with the other Klingons, it's just lazy to completely ignore it. So the joke and no explanation made it work.
They didn't have to account for all of TOS's other failures because they didn't come face to face with them.
-
Can somebody summarize what the explanation was? I'm familiar with Worf's remark on DS9, and thought it was brilliant, and that that should have been the end of it. But I likely will never watch Enterprise.
Some garbage about Klingons trying genetic engineering to make themselves stronger, except it caused some problem where they would lose their ridges and alter their behaviour and make them weak. Basically the most convoluted BS to try and squeeze the square peg into the round hole so that the complete change in the Klingons after TOS was explained, except it just made it a complete mess.
Ugh. That sounds awful.
-
Can somebody summarize what the explanation was? I'm familiar with Worf's remark on DS9, and thought it was brilliant, and that that should have been the end of it. But I likely will never watch Enterprise.
Some garbage about Klingons trying genetic engineering to make themselves stronger, except it caused some problem where they would lose their ridges and alter their behaviour and make them weak. Basically the most convoluted BS to try and squeeze the square peg into the round hole so that the complete change in the Klingons after TOS was explained, except it just made it a complete mess.
Ugh. That sounds awful.
It actually wasn't as bad as he makes it sound. It wasn't pretty, but within the context of the Kahn story line they had set up, it wasn't altogether terrible, either. After six genetically altered humans commandeered one of their battlecruisers, the Klingons decided to carry on the experiment, but were using human based DNA. That DNA exerted itself over the Klingon's normal genetic material, and combined with a normal virus, infected an undefined segment of their population. The spread was stopped, but it was going to require 2 or 3 generations before the Klingon DNA fully reverted back to normal.
I agree that it wasn't a very good explanation to a question that never needed to be answered*, but it was no worse than plenty of other DNA run amok episodes from all of the other series. Christ, how many times did TNG crank out awful genetic mutation episodes? And actually, while the premise itself wasn't very good, the episodes were actually not bad at all.
*I still think asking the question was great.
-
It sounds like they tried like hell to make it sound reasonable, but ultimately the best choice would have been to avoid the subject completely (on which we all seem to agree).
-
It sounds like they tried like hell to make it sound reasonable, but ultimately the best choice would have been to avoid the subject completely (on which we all seem to agree).
Yup. But if you're into ST, you should check out Enterprise. It's not the world's greatest television, but it's not bad and a lot of the throwbacks actually do work.
-
I've heard that it's hit or miss. I grew up on TOS, I stuck with TNG through all seven seasons, and same with Voyager, although I've heard that sticking with DS9 might have been the better choice. Who knew? I watched DS9 on and off through the first season and from what I've heard, I gave up on it too soon. I have a friend who owns all of DS9 on DVD, and I think she has all of Enterprise now, too, but the problem these days is finding the time. The idea of committing to that much time, for a TV series, scares me. (Insert fear of commitment joke.)
-
I've heard that it's hit or miss. I grew up on TOS, I stuck with TNG through all seven seasons, and same with Voyager, although I've heard that sticking with DS9 might have been the better choice. Who knew? I watched DS9 on and off through the first season and from what I've heard, I gave up on it too soon. I have a friend who owns all of DS9 on DVD, and I think she has all of Enterprise now, too, but the problem these days is finding the time. The idea of committing to that much time, for a TV series, scares me. (Insert fear of commitment joke.)
Technically, they're all hit or miss. You wade through some crap to watch the occasional awesome episodes. What separates the good series' from the bad ones is the quality of everything in between.
-
Yeah, that's true. The thing is, when it's in production and new episodes are on every week, setting aside an hour a week to watch is no big deal. We watched TNG every Thursday night for seven years. Voyager I think was on Sundays where we lived. Some weeks are good, some not so good. No biggie; it was something to watch while we ate dinner.
Now, however, I'm looking at seven seasons of DS9, or four seasons of Enterprise, and either way, that's a lot of sitting on my ass to commit to. If I'm gonna do it, it doesn't make sense not to do it all; I just don't know if I want to do it all. That's why I said it's likely that I just won't. I have too many things I'd rather do than watch hours and hours of episodic TV.
-
Yeah, I can get that. That's why I haven't watched several things I'd like to see, beginning with BG. It's easy to watch ST because I've seen them all before, so I can watch them while working without having to pay close attention all the time. Watching stuff at home is another matter, and I'll usually watch things in large chunks. Currently 3 or 4 episodes of Breaking Bad at a time, but I can only do that once or twice a week (frankly, any more of that would be psychologically stressful).
-
I've heard that it's hit or miss. I grew up on TOS, I stuck with TNG through all seven seasons, and same with Voyager, although I've heard that sticking with DS9 might have been the better choice. Who knew? I watched DS9 on and off through the first season and from what I've heard, I gave up on it too soon. I have a friend who owns all of DS9 on DVD, and I think she has all of Enterprise now, too, but the problem these days is finding the time. The idea of committing to that much time, for a TV series, scares me. (Insert fear of commitment joke.)
Glad I have the time to sit on my ass and run through a 10 season show in only 2 weeks (just rewatched Stargate). :lol
DS9 is a very consistent show to stick with though. Very few "misses" imo, and easily the most consistent Trek by far. There were maybe 2 episodes I would call bad, unlike Enterprise, which was consistently mediocre for the first 2 seasons, pretty good for the 3rd season, and all over the place for the 4th.
-
I would rate 99% of season 3 as amazing.
-
As good as DS9 was, Emissary is just awful. I don't know if it's as bad as Farpoint was, but it's pretty damn close. I can certainly see why plenty of people, I believe Orbert was one of them, couldn't get into the series.
-
I don't see it. Emissary was easily the best of the pilots. It's not amazing, but it's far from awful. I'd say it's good, or even at the very least decent.
There's not even a comparison with Encounter at Farpoint. That was a completely clunky mish-mash of an episode.
-
I can't say that I remember the pilot for DS9 specifically, but I did try to get into the show for the first season; I'm pretty sure I caught all or nearly all of the episodes in the first season. It wasn't bad, but I wasn't as invested in the characters, and TNG was still on the air.
I think what happened was that Babylon 5 started up the followed year, and it was a better show from the start. More interesting characters, better effects, better stories. Then TNG ended and we just watched Babylon 5.
-
Emissary suffered mostly from terrible acting. Avery Brooks was particularly annoying. The writing also tried to hard to force the characters to establish themselves. O'Brien was the only one that wasn't awful, and it's because we already know all about him. After a few episodes when the characters can focus on decent stories rather than introductions, it'll get better. The idiot Kardassian (the gul that wasn't Dukat) was terrible, as well.
I thought Caretaker was the only premier that was good, and I think most of it's because the characters just went along with the story, and you learned about them as it went along. No soliloquies from Kira about fighting a lost cause all her life, or Odo being found in the wormhole and wanting to go and discover himself. Considering that the characters get tinkered with and develop their personalities throughout the show, this is certainly the way to go.
-
Common quote : " All Star Trek movies use Time Travel ".
Actual ST movies where Time Travel is central to the entire plot :
1.The Motion Picture - No.
2.The Wrath of Khan - No.
3.The Search For Spock - No.
4.The Voyage Home - Yes.
5.The Final Frontier - No.
6.The Undiscovered Country - No.
7.Generations - Kind of. I see the Nexus more of a meeting place and you can choose to exit to any time / place. I don't see the entire movie being about time travel. It's merely used at the end to enable Kirk to assist Picard. However - they may have exited to an alternate reality and not the same universe they left. Debatable.
8.First Contact - Yes.
9.Insurrection - No.
10.Nemesis - No.
11.Star Trek - Yes.
-
On an entirely different note :-
Dees anyone else want to see another new Enterprise in Star Trek Into Darkness ?
Or do we all want to see more of the one introduced in Star Trek 2009 ?
I'd quite like it to get destroyed in "Into Darkness" and reveal a new one at the end kind of like how Voyage Home ends.
-
I don't care if we get new enterprise. I just want a new engineering section.
Also, I've never heard anyone say that all ST movies have time travel.
-
I think time travel is such a common thing with sci-fi that when it does happen in Star Trek, people roll their eyes and say "Here we go again", not realizing that it's really not done much at all in Star Trek.
Holodeck malfunctions are a similar thing. They don't happen often, but when they do, it's usually pretty memorable so it seems like it happens more often than it really does. You catch some rerun, and if there's a holodeck malfunction, you're never surprised because you swear half the shows had them. But again, it's only a small handful.
-
Maybe not "all" ST movies, but I've heard it said that it's overused in Trek in general.
-
I don't care if we get new enterprise. I just want a new engineering section.
Also, I've never heard anyone say that all ST movies have time travel.
I have heard it a lot from non-trek fans.
Just thought i'd tot up how many actually contain time travel. Generations is debatable and Into Darkness probably won't do it again.
So that's 3 / possibly 4 out of twelve.
I'd like to see a big battle between Enterprise and another ship - [ but it would have to be slow and dramatic like Khan and not fast like Nemesis.. That won't happen though. ] and 1701 get beaten to hell and then you see a new refitted version at the end.
-
A big battle would be cool.
Wanna know what I want to see?
Good characters, a well written script, genuine tension and developed relationships between cast members.
Sadly your wish list is WAY more likely.
-
The way Abrams would film it, I can do without any space battles.
And definitely no blowing up the current ship. The original Enterprise lasted decades, they refit it twice, and they only lost it when Kirk himself blew it up. I thought it was kind of weak that those TNG guys couldn't keep theirs for more than 8 years before crashing it into a planet.
-
The way Abrams would film it, I can do without any space battles.
And definitely no blowing up the current ship. The original Enterprise lasted decades, they refit it twice, and they only lost it when Kirk himself blew it up. I thought it was kind of weak that those TNG guys couldn't keep theirs for more than 8 years before crashing it into a planet.
Apparently the reason they got rid of the D was because it didn't look as good on film.
-
Finally - the writers have said that they already have "lots of ideas" for a third movie - " if they do one ".
If Into Darkness is good - i'd love to see a third movie. I know Paramount will probably push for one too.
But they have said that three would be it for this current team - which is good news - I don't want six of these !!
If I enjoy Into Darkness as much as I loved 2009 - then three movies would be a good collection to own.
The only thing they said that irked me a bit was " for this current team ". Which made me think that if the three films were really
successful - then Paramount might try and hire just anybody to carry on after JJ / Lindelof / Orci / Kurtzman et al are done.
I got scared by the prospect of a possible Michael Bay helmed Star Trekformers full of no-name actors.
-
The way Abrams would film it, I can do without any space battles.
And definitely no blowing up the current ship. The original Enterprise lasted decades, they refit it twice, and they only lost it when Kirk himself blew it up. I thought it was kind of weak that those TNG guys couldn't keep theirs for more than 8 years before crashing it into a planet.
Apparently the reason they got rid of the D was because it didn't look as good on film.
I never liked the shape of the D - i thought it was too bulbous. I preferred E as it was kinda sleek and looked more like the Enterprise A.
-
Getting rid of the writing team would the best thing they could possibly do.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are the worst writers in Hollywood.
Also funny that you mentioned Michael Bay since the same guys who wrote the terrible Transformers movie are writing these Star Trek movies.
And to be honest, some of you guys are placing WAY too much blame on the directors. I'm pretty sure Michael Bay was the only good thing about Transformers 3, the writing was just abysmal. I don't care for JJ Abrams style of directing for the new ST movies, but it didn't ruin he movie for me.
The writing did.
-
I'm kinda hoping that they're signed for a certain amount of films and they have to do the script whether they want to or not.
I'm talking about Transformers being so plot-free. Maybe they did it just to get the money.
Like how Ed Norton didn't want to star in the Italian Job remake but was contractually obliged to a studio.
I know i'll never change anyones mind - but I really liked the plot of ST2009. But i'm not a writer.
I just liked how they used time travel to create a new timeline so that old and new fans could enjoy Trek together but also leaving the original timeline intact. Plus having Nimoy in there is a tip of the hat to the old series - it says our film exists Because of old trek.
But yeah . i've read everyone's criticisms of the plot / dialogue. But it's still better than Nemesis.
-
I'd say that getting rid of the entire behind the camera team would be the best thing they can do. I thought this would be a rare instance of Adami and I agreeing about ST, but alas, Abrams is a bigger detriment than the writers. A good director could have made a much better movie out of that script. I don't think better writing would have resulted in a better film if shot in Abrams' style.
And I never heard that about the Enterprise D. Wouldn't surprise me, but I still think it's weak.
-
I'm kinda hoping that they're signed for a certain amount of films and they have to do the script whether they want to or not.
I'm talking about Transformers being so plot-free. Maybe they did it just to get the money.
Like how Ed Norton didn't want to star in the Italian Job remake but was contractually obliged to a studio.
I know i'll never change anyones mind - but I really liked the plot of ST2009. But i'm not a writer.
I just liked how they used time travel to create a new timeline so that old and new fans could enjoy Trek together but also leaving the original timeline intact. Plus having Nimoy in there is a tip of the hat to the old series - it says our film exists Because of old trek.
But yeah . i've read everyone's criticisms of the plot / dialogue. But it's still better than Nemesis.
The time travel aspect was fine. Not a problem with that at all. I had a problem with how the characters were written, the less major parts of the plot (like Spock sending Kirk to a random ice planet for being mean which just happens to have old Spock and Scotty and also just happened to not be sucked into the major black hole that was RIGHT NEAR IT). Also the villain had no depth or logic behind anything what so ever.
And Bart, I agree that a good director could have made the movie much better. But a good team of writers would have made it even better.
How about we agree that the directing and the writing were both horrible?
-
I seem to be in the minority here :biggrin:
Before ST2009 I was terrified about JJ directing but I adored it so much that I didn't want anyone else to do "..Into Darkness"
I've been a Trek Fan since the early 80's and grew up with the TOS movies and TNG series and later the movies.
I saw every film in the cinema from Undiscovered Country onwards..
Even so - ST2009 absolutely floored me on the big screen. Adored it. It's easily my 2nd favourite after Khan.
However - If James Cameron or Ridley Scott directed Into Darkness - I reckon that would be spectacular :D
-
It also seems that Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman write movies with this general thought process.
"Does this seem cool to teenagers with no attention span? Yes"
"Does this have any sense of internal consistency or logic what so ever? Who cares?"
-
:P
Ah well - I loved that star trek film.
I guess that's all that counts.
And no - I don't just like big dumb action films. I hate the Transformers films and anything like " The Transporter " or the god-awful Angelina Jolie film " Wanted." Those movies are actually offensive.
I like well written films too. Loved Inception for instance. I know that's kind of still a blockbuster actioner - but at least it didn't treat it's audience like idiots.
I usually go to the cinema to be entertained primarily.
I wouldn't go and see Waiting for Godot in IMAX :P
-
Well I don't consider it the worst ST movie.
It's just that it's BARELY a ST movie. In fact if you changed the names and basic design of a few things, you could have called it whatever and it would have worked the same.
-
Is there a more elegant spaceship design than 1701-A ?
(https://www.starshipdatalink.net/enterprise/1701a/1701a-5.jpg)
I don't think i've ever preferred another spaceship design - in any show / movie ! :)
-
Well I don't consider it the worst ST movie.
It's just that it's BARELY a ST movie. In fact if you changed the names and basic design of a few things, you could have called it whatever and it would have worked the same.
Well Trek had gotten stuck in a creative rut. Nemesis was a massive flop and all the episodes of Voyager and Enterprise blurred together. It was time there was a fresh new vision for Trek. And it seemed to work because it made over $350m worldwide.
Now - i'm not saying big box office makes it good and you'll probably counter that people only went to see it for the increased action quotient but it at least proves that it got a lot more people into Trek.
-
When I said it wasn't a ST movie, I meant that it wasn't really what ST was about.
ST was never about lots of fighting and space battles. It was about characters, plots, relationships and social commentary. ST 2009 was pretty much just a bunch of fighting and space battles. Which is all modern actions movies are, not what ST is.
However it seems ST is now just another action genre aimed at the widest possible audience.
-
Now we agree. 2009 was an action movie, and that's not what Trek was about. Hell, even Khan and Undiscovered Country weren't action movies, despite having a tone of action moments.
I get your points about the writers, and they're perfectly valid. At the same time, a lot of their dialog was the only thing that made the movie passable. That's the reason I rank them above Abrams. At least they contributed something decent.
-
This thread makes me sad :biggrin:
I'm a huge Trek fan and I loved ST2009.
:) I'll just leave now.. hehe.
-
This thread makes me sad :biggrin:
I'm a huge Trek fan and I loved ST2009.
:) I'll just leave now.. hehe.
You're not alone. I loved it, too. Back when it came out, there was a great Onion News Network piece: Trekkies Bash New Star Trek Film as Fun, Watchable (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theonion.com%2Fvideo%2Ftrekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable%2C14333%2F&ei=mVx4UNuZAsXJsgaM3oCQDA&usg=AFQjCNHQJTTK3JW04w0Hs6oYiRNBMODmNw&sig2=W8SsAM52YwNDxy1p2xXGsA), which our local IMAX played in the lobby while were lined up for the movie.
-
The irony is that what The Onion says in jest is also very much true; a fact they were quite aware of.
I'd give it fun. Watchable, maybe. Rewatchable? No dice. Like I said, there are things I really liked about it, and I'd love to be able to say that I really like it. It's just not ST and it's not the sort of thing I, as a whole, enjoy. Actually reminds me a lot of the modern James Bond movies. Mindless escapism without the intrigue that the earlier films had.
-
Star trek 5 is on now.
It's really not totally without merit. It has moments of laugh out loud comedy gold and some good action scenes.
But most of the film once Sybok gets back to the Enterprise is pretty poor.
At worst it's still better than Star Wars I - III .
-
Star trek 5 is on now.
It's really not totally without merit. It has moments of laugh out loud comedy gold and some good action scenes.
But most of the film once Sybok gets back to the Enterprise is pretty poor.
At worst it's still better than Star Wars I - III .
Yay we agree.
-
:heart
-
Yeah, it's weaksauce, but I find it's usually fun weaksauce.
I still find the climax on the planet with the floating Yah-head to be amusing. What does God need a space-ship for?
-
My favourite joke :
Kirk : I could use a shower.
Spock : ........Yes.
-
I like ST5. I've never considered it worthy of all the hate it gets.
-
It's not bad up until Sybok gets to the Enterprise then it loses it's way really.
-
Even though I consider ST5 a lower tier ST movie. It does have one of my favorite lines from any ST film... "What does God need with a Starship?"
EDIT: And if you've never seen the Rifftrax for this movie....please do. It's one of the best, and I think it's only 99 cents. (Rifftrax is the new thing from the primary writers of MST3K)
-
I've now finished all of the original series, The Next Generation and Deep Space 9. I'm working on Voyager now. The last episode I watched was the Beowulf holodeck one. I like it so far, the concept is pretty interesting.
-
I recently got into Star Trek Online and decided to start watching the shows so I'd have any idea at all what's going on. Figured I'd start with TOS and then Enterprise since they're available for free. I've seen the first 11 episodes so far, up to part 1 of The Menagerie which easily the best episode so far. The rest have been pretty bad.... maybe the one where the transporter malfunctioned and split Kirk was ok, but probably not. Hopefully it gets better.
-
The thing about ST5 that irked me is, you want to make a movie about finding God and then actually finding something? Then don't shy away at the last second and put this "sorta God but not really" there instead.
-
But the movie wasn't about finding God. The movie was about how Vulcans can actually laugh and enjoy life, and how a Vulcan has found a way to release all of your inner pain and allow others to be really happy. That part of it had nothing to do with finding God. The journey to find "God" was just to drive the plot forward, and the false God was just your misguided omnipotent alien of the week, big screen edition. It's a mess, a mashup of a handful of things that don't quite work, but I still enjoyed the movie for what it was. I never actually thought the movie was about finding God, especially since that part came up later.
-
Agreed. The "Alien pretending to be God" was not a new Star Trek concept....but it had never been done on the big screen. It just wasn't executed very well. The slapstick was a bit too hokey. The camping scenes had a couple of gem lines ("I liked him better before he died!")...but were mostly embarrassing and awful. (Row row row your boat? REALLY? :facepalm: )
-
I recently got into Star Trek Online and decided to start watching the shows so I'd have any idea at all what's going on. Figured I'd start with TOS and then Enterprise since they're available for free. I've seen the first 11 episodes so far, up to part 1 of The Menagerie which easily the best episode so far. The rest have been pretty bad.... maybe the one where the transporter malfunctioned and split Kirk was ok, but probably not. Hopefully it gets better.
Most of the early episodes actually are pretty bad, and the best part of the series is coming up. The Corbomite Maneuver is a highlight, though. Surprised to see it lumped in with pretty bad. Still, if you couldn't get anything at all out of the first 10, it's probably going to be a pretty long series for you.
I've now finished all of the original series, The Next Generation and Deep Space 9. I'm working on Voyager now. The last episode I watched was the Beowulf holodeck one. I like it so far, the concept is pretty interesting.
I just wrapped up Voyager not too long ago, and was pleasantly surprised. I'd rank it above everything short of the last 4 season of DS9.
As for ST5, it was shit.
-
I like ST5. I've never considered it worthy of all the hate it gets.
Aside from the letdown ending, I think it's actually quite an enjoyable movie. Not necessarily a good movie, but definitely enjoyable. :lol
I feel like it's the only original cast movie that comes close to capturing the camp feel of TOS, and the only one that manages to recreate the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic well.
It's not a great movie, but I'm surprised that even TOS fans tend to hate it considering how it's the closest thing to TOS out of all the movies.
-
I like ST5. I've never considered it worthy of all the hate it gets.
Aside from the letdown ending, I think it's actually quite an enjoyable movie. Not necessarily a good movie, but definitely enjoyable. :lol
I feel like it's the only original cast movie that comes close to capturing the camp feel of TOS, and the only one that manages to recreate the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic well.
It's not a great movie, but I'm surprised that even TOS fans tend to hate it considering how it's the closest thing to TOS out of all the movies.
This is a new thought to me...and quite a fascinating one. It never occurred to me that Shatner may have actually succeeded in making a movie that was the most like a TOS episode. But then again....people tend to not like it when a movie feels like a episode from the TV series. Perfect example is my personal favorite ST movie...Insurrection. There are personal reasons why I love the storyline above all the other movies in the series....but the criticism that I often hear about the movie is..."it would have made a great episode, but it was a terrible movie." But of all the TNG movies, I feel like it is the most like a two part episode of TNG.
-
I recently got into Star Trek Online and decided to start watching the shows so I'd have any idea at all what's going on. Figured I'd start with TOS and then Enterprise since they're available for free. I've seen the first 11 episodes so far, up to part 1 of The Menagerie which easily the best episode so far. The rest have been pretty bad.... maybe the one where the transporter malfunctioned and split Kirk was ok, but probably not. Hopefully it gets better.
Most of the early episodes actually are pretty bad, and the best part of the series is coming up. The Corbomite Maneuver is a highlight, though. Surprised to see it lumped in with pretty bad. Still, if you couldn't get anything at all out of the first 10, it's probably going to be a pretty long series for you.
I forgot about that one, it'd probably be the next best one after The Menagerie pt1 now that I think about it. And I guess it's harsh to say the entire episodes have been bad... the banter between the crew (mainly Kirk, McCoy, and Spock) is usually fun regardless, it's the stories and aliens that bring the others down.
-
You know what's weird? Well not weird I guess. But I was thinking about which actors from Star Trek (all the shows/movies, dead or alive) that I'd like to meet and hang out with in real life, and I noticed that TOS kind of topped the list.
I mean I'd love to meet and hang with Shatner, Nemoy, Takei, Kelly, Stewart, Burton, Meany, Abortionwah, and Picardo.
Even though I love their characters I don't think I'd want to hang with people like Spiner or the rest of them. But yea the cast from TOS seem like way cooler guys than a decent amount of the other people.
-
I've now finished all of the original series, The Next Generation and Deep Space 9. I'm working on Voyager now. The last episode I watched was the Beowulf holodeck one. I like it so far, the concept is pretty interesting.
I just wrapped up Voyager not too long ago, and was pleasantly surprised. I'd rank it above everything short of the last 4 season of DS9.
Oh wow, that makes me excited. If I had to rank series it would be:
DS9 > Next Generation > Original Series
The last four seasons of DS9 were incredible. The storyline was pretty well written, and the ending was rather fitting. I honestly wish there had been more collaboration between DS9 and the Enterprise.
-
Duet would have been a much better episode without Kira. Few things in the ST universe annoy me more than here incessant sobbing and whining.
I also think they might have diminished some of the impact with his motive. I thought it was more powerful when he appeared to be acting solely out of guilt for his cowardice. When they provided a more political rationale, it lessened the emotional aspect, IMO.
-
I like ST5. I've never considered it worthy of all the hate it gets.
Aside from the letdown ending, I think it's actually quite an enjoyable movie. Not necessarily a good movie, but definitely enjoyable. :lol
I feel like it's the only original cast movie that comes close to capturing the camp feel of TOS, and the only one that manages to recreate the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic well.
It's not a great movie, but I'm surprised that even TOS fans tend to hate it considering how it's the closest thing to TOS out of all the movies.
This is a new thought to me...and quite a fascinating one. It never occurred to me that Shatner may have actually succeeded in making a movie that was the most like a TOS episode. But then again....people tend to not like it when a movie feels like a episode from the TV series. Perfect example is my personal favorite ST movie...Insurrection. There are personal reasons why I love the storyline above all the other movies in the series....but the criticism that I often hear about the movie is..."it would have made a great episode, but it was a terrible movie." But of all the TNG movies, I feel like it is the most like a two part episode of TNG.
In ST:TMP, Spock was being all Vulcan and rejecting his human side and even by the end, all he really got out of it was that his human side might actually have an advantage or two, in certain situations. With the II-III-IV story arc, he was literally reborn, but only after being inside McCoy's head for a while, which I like to think gave each of them a better understanding of the other. By the end of IV, when Spock decides he will "make a guess" and McCoy backs him up, they've definitely made progress.
By the end of TFF, we have the painfully awkward campfire singing, but the point is that Spock has finally done it. He's singing "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" around the campfire, and maybe even having a good time. Maybe it was what he'd learned from Sybok, maybe it was more the sum of everything he'd been through starting with TMP. But in all of Trek, Spock has evolved the most, and TFF makes it the most clear. And yes, it's The Three. No way that that wasn't intentional. If that scene had only been a bit less awkward, I think the entire film would've been greatly improved; it would've tipped the balance, and a lot more people would be able to see the significance of that scene and what it shows of Spock's evolution. Instead, people tend to focus on "OMG WTF singing?!"
With STVI, we begin the bridging of TOS with the TNG universe, the progression towards "later Trek" in the timeline, so that closing scene of TFF is, in a way, the end of TOS. I think it's great that it brings us back to TOS and what made it work, and it's fitting that it was Shatner's baby. Haters gonna hate, but as I've said (too many times, I know) I have no problem with TFF.
I like Insurrection as well. We'd reached the point where there were lots of Trek feature films, and you can't have The Enterprise saving the Earth/Federation/Universe every time, so I had no problem with a bit more down-to-earth story.
-
Duet would have been a much better episode without Kira. Few things in the ST universe annoy me more than here incessant sobbing and whining.
I also think they might have diminished some of the impact with his motive. I thought it was more powerful when he appeared to be acting solely out of guilt for his cowardice. When they provided a more political rationale, it lessened the emotional aspect, IMO.
You're officially nuts. :p Better without Kira? I think you just clash with Nana Visitor.
There's no way Kira or the viewer can forgive the prisoner without something like the unmasked motive. That's what set up the effect of mindless murder in the first place, fabulous episode.
-
Duet would have been a much better episode without Kira. Few things in the ST universe annoy me more than here incessant sobbing and whining.
I also think they might have diminished some of the impact with his motive. I thought it was more powerful when he appeared to be acting solely out of guilt for his cowardice. When they provided a more political rationale, it lessened the emotional aspect, IMO.
You're officially nuts. :p Better without Kira? I think you just clash with Nana Visitor.
There's no way Kira or the viewer can forgive the prisoner without something like the unmasked motive. That's what set up the effect of mindless murder in the first place, fabulous episode.
Well, yeah, I've made it pretty clear I don't like Nana Visitor (don't even like her name). Part of the reason I find season one so weak is all the awful emoting from her and Avery Brooks. The writing is actually just fine. Much like season 1 of TNG, there's a lot of really crappy acting while the actors try to establish their characters.
The unmasked motive was guilt for doing nothing when he was there. That's all that was needed. Wanting to stand trial so that the Kardassian Union would be bettered by the experience rationalizes it. A logical motive detracted from the quite powerful emotional motive that they had already established. When he broke down about hiding under his bed sobbing to drown out the screams, that was it. Cut scene. Nothing more is going to improve upon that, and the attempt diminished it.
-
Oh good - we're back to the series.
I'm out.
-
I read about ST5 on Wikipedia yesterday, and it must have been a giant clusterfuck, with exploding equipment buses because they disregarded the writers' guild strike, constant tug-of-war between rewrites etc.
The interesting thing is, Sybok was initially supposed to receive visions that would lead him to the Being. With that plot element it would have made so much more sense. Some being in the center of the universe lures people there in an attempt to escape confinement. Would have been nice if they had introduced a reason for the Being's confinement, maybe punishment. Even though, I think there's a similar TOS episode like that.
-
As weak as ST:5 is...
It's still light years better than any of the Star Wars prequels.
-
There were times I couldn't stand Kira, then again there were times I couldn't stand Cisco. I think the only characters in DS9 I never got upset with were Julian, Garak and Quark.
-
There were times I couldn't stand Kira, then again there were times I couldn't stand Cisco. I think the only characters in DS9 I never got upset with were Julian, Garak and Quark.
Julian was by far the worst actor for a long time (well maybe tied with Brooks). How could you ever get upset with Miles?
-
There were times I couldn't stand Kira, then again there were times I couldn't stand Cisco. I think the only characters in DS9 I never got upset with were Julian, Garak and Quark.
Julian was by far the worst actor for a long time (well maybe tied with Brooks). How could you ever get upset with Miles?
Miles' mediocrity made me sad.
-
There were times I couldn't stand Kira, then again there were times I couldn't stand Cisco. I think the only characters in DS9 I never got upset with were Julian, Garak and Quark.
Julian was by far the worst actor for a long time (well maybe tied with Brooks). How could you ever get upset with Miles?
Miles' mediocrity made me sad.
GO AWAY MILES IS THE BEST!
-
There were times I couldn't stand Kira, then again there were times I couldn't stand Cisco. I think the only characters in DS9 I never got upset with were Julian, Garak and Quark.
Julian was by far the worst actor for a long time (well maybe tied with Brooks). How could you ever get upset with Miles?
Uh, there were a few episodes where he was cranky the whole episode, and it got annoying. I also didn't like how he treated Julian so much different after he found out he was a genetic freak, even though in all reality he was still the same Julian. I know he adjusted eventually, and it become a joke. Miles is easily in my top 10 favorite characters from the series, but I can think of a handful of times I was annoyed with him.
Edit: I thought of another Character that I loved whom never upset me: Vic Fontaine.
-
There were times I couldn't stand Kira, then again there were times I couldn't stand Cisco. I think the only characters in DS9 I never got upset with were Julian, Garak and Quark.
Julian was by far the worst actor for a long time (well maybe tied with Brooks). How could you ever get upset with Miles?
Miles' mediocrity made me sad.
GO AWAY MILES IS THE BEST!
HE'S AN UNPLEASANT LOOKING TNG B-CHARACTER REJECT. There was one episode where he was a total dick to his wife, to the point where I assumed it had to be due to some alien influence, but it turns out he was just being a dick because he's Miles. He disgusts me with his averageness.
-
Top 10 list with the show having about 10 main actors.
Good to know he'd make the list of people who were on the show.
Although DS9 was lucky enough to have a plethora of amazing characters that weren't main, like Garak, Dukat, etc.
Also DS9 was nice enough to name the worst Bajoran (or life form in general) in the galaxy after me.
-
You're just upset because he was cooler in Next Generation, admit it.
Top 10 list with the show having about 10 main actors.
Good to know he'd make the list of people who were on the show.
Although DS9 was lucky enough to have a plethora of amazing characters that weren't main, like Garak, Dukat, etc.
Also DS9 was nice enough to name the worst Bajoran (or life form in general) in the galaxy after me.
Actually only four of the main characters would be in it:
Cisco, Julian, Quark and Otto.
Edit: I don't consider Miles a main character, he wasn't important enough to the series in my opinion.
-
liloutkast and Blob have officially made my list.
Hear that? YOU'VE MADE MY LIST!
-
liloutkast and Blob have officially made my list.
Hear that? YOU'VE MADE MY LIST!
I hope it's your Christmas card list. :caffeine:
-
liloutkast and Blob have officially made my list.
Hear that? YOU'VE MADE MY LIST!
I hope it's your Christmas card list. :caffeine:
It is. It comes with a little powder that looks a little bit like snow too.
Make sure to get a good whiff of it.
-
Hey, I'm just happy I'm on the same list as Blob for something. I wish it was a list of great Graphical Designers, but a list of people Adami will kill because they don't think Miles is a main character will suffice.
-
Hey, I'm just happy I'm on the same list as Blob for something. I wish it was a list of great Graphical Designers, but a list of people Adami will kill because they don't think Miles is a main character will suffice.
Well he is a main character. You're on the list because you don't like him enough to qualify for you to live.
-
Hey, I'm just happy I'm on the same list as Blob for something. I wish it was a list of great Graphical Designers, but a list of people Adami will kill because they don't think Miles is a main character will suffice.
Well he is a main character. You're on the list because you don't like him enough to qualify for you to live.
If it makes you feel better, I thoroughly enjoyed a lot of Miles centered episodes.
You know, all of the ones where he gets injured or tortured.
-
Damnit Blob I thawt we wuz tight! Y u gettin yo jollyz off hurtyn muh hart?!?!
-
Irreconcilable differences. You can get custody of Miles in the split, and I get Jadzia. I bet she gets freaky with that Trill pouch too. :zydar:
-
Irreconcilable differences. You can get custody of Miles in the split, and I get Jadzia. I bet she gets freaky with that Trill pouch too. :zydar:
Fine. You get Jadzia, I get Miles.
And I also get Ezri.
We cool now?
Woah. Is your attraction to Dax based on the fact that she is the closets thing to a kangaroo that ST has to offer?
-
Woah. Is your attraction to Dax based on the fact that she is the closets thing to a kangaroo that ST has to offer?
:rollin
Oh, and also I get 7 of 9, and you can have Janeway. Equinox pt 2 Janeway.
-
Woah. Is your attraction to Dax based on the fact that she is the closets thing to a kangaroo that ST has to offer?
:rollin
Oh, and also I get 7 of 9, and you can have Janeway. Equinox pt 2 Janeway.
God damnit, if we're splitting the women, let's just get it over with shall we?
You get, Jadzia, 7, Crusher, Yar, Torres, Kira, and Uhura......you know if you need a maid.
I get Ezri, Troi, Kes, Hoshi, T'pal, and Janeway....you know, if I need a maid.
That good enough?
-
Hey, I'm not letting you sneak away with Hoshi! I'll trade you Crusher, Torres, Uhura, and Yarr for her. I'm not greedy. I'd be happy with just Jadzia, Hoshi and 7.
.......and Picard. Shut up. Like you wouldn't.
-
Hey, I'm not letting you sneak away with Hoshi! I'll trade you Crusher, Torres, Uhura, and Yarr for her. I'm not greedy. I'd be happy with just Jadzia, Hoshi and 7.
.......and Picard. Shut up. Like you wouldn't.
How about this. You get Hoshi, I get Mirror universe Hoshi.
Or vice versa, either way works.
-
Hey, I'm not letting you sneak away with Hoshi! I'll trade you Crusher, Torres, Uhura, and Yarr for her. I'm not greedy. I'd be happy with just Jadzia, Hoshi and 7.
.......and Picard. Shut up. Like you wouldn't.
How about this. You get Hoshi, I get Mirror universe Hoshi.
Or vice versa, either way works.
You can have mirror universe Hoshi. Call me crazy, but I prefer my Asians less stabby. I'll even throw in mirror universe T'Pol for free. You can let them fight it out in the holodeck in Andorian jello.
-
See Blob? We CAN be brothers.
-
Sorry guys, Ezri is already parked with me.
-
Yeah, this is most certainly a prog forum.
-
O'Brian is definitely a main character in the first season. They relied on him heavily since he was the only one already established.
-
Give me Riker :eyebrows:
-
Give me Riker :eyebrows:
You can have him, provided he and I are allowed to hang out. He seems like a really cool guy.
Also, I used to own a St. Bernard for about 9 or 10 years when I was younger. What did I name him? Riker.
-
He could chew a mean bone.
-
So I guess TOS is one of those shows where the chronological order of the episodes is different from their aired ordering. Continunity probably isn't going to be a big deal either way, but it was kind of funny just watching Balance of Terror where they talk about no one even knowing what a Romulan ship would look like when the Enterprise almost got blown away by a group of them a few episodes ago.
I'm tempted to look up a chronological ordering of the episodes and go off of that but I'm already halfway through the season. Maybe I'll do it for 2 and 3.
-
Well, you're half right. They did air some of them out of order, and continuity was never a big concern for them, but none of the episodes before BoT, produced or aired, had Romulans in it. I don't even see any other first season episodes with Romulans.
-
They showed up in The Deadly Years when some guy took command from Kirk and flew through the neutral zone. Then they all got better and Kirk did his Corbomite thing again to scare them off.
-
Possible New Trek Series ? (https://screenrant.com/star-trek-captain-worf-tv-show-michael-dorn/)
Please no Braga or Berman.
-
Possible New Trek Series ? (https://screenrant.com/star-trek-captain-worf-tv-show-michael-dorn/)
Please no Braga or Berman.
Precisely.
Can't say I'm too excited about the prospect of a Worf series. It might be better for them to just jump ahead in time. Actually, you know what would be a great idea? A series telling the story of the foundation of the Federation.
-
You know what would be a terrible idea? A whole series about the founding of the federation. So far the last series, the last movie and next movie are all prequels, I say if they're going to make a new series, let it do what TNG did and skip ahead.
You know what would be a worse idea? A show about Worf.
Seriously though, there's not going to be a new Trek show for at least 5-10 years, and even then it will just serve to capitalize on the new movies and will likely be action/adventure thrillers set in that time line.
-
Meh, that was a pot shot at Enterprise. I do think the series could have been done well by focusing story arcs towards the key members of the Federation. ...and the Romulans. The Andorans were one of the only highlights of the first couple of seasons. It struck me as weak that they used their series arcs telling us the Enterprise is important (time wars must kill Archer blah blah) rather than just showing us the Enterprise was important.
-
Here's an idea for a new show.
Star Trek: Ensign Ricky.
It's about ensign Ricky. The only red shirt to survive three seasons of ToS. Whoever plays Ricky will be digitally placed into every episode of ToS (like in Trials and Tribbelations).
So it'd be an already decided 3 year show and you can cash in on Kirk and Spock.
Brilliant? Hella.
-
They showed up in The Deadly Years when some guy took command from Kirk and flew through the neutral zone. Then they all got better and Kirk did his Corbomite thing again to scare them off.
Mid-way through season Two. Well after Balance of Terror.
-
The official site (https://www.startrek.com/videos/star-trek-the-original-series/all/full/episode) where I'm watching them says it's episode 12 of season 1. Weird.
edit: Just noticed that it has both The Deadly Years and The Menagerie Part 2 as episode 12. No idea what happened there.
-
Mistake. It's season 2, episode 12. Season 1, episode 12 was part to of The Menagerie.
-
God dammit guy who runs their website.
-
Here's an idea for a new show.
Star Trek: Ensign Ricky.
It's about ensign Ricky. The only red shirt to survive three seasons of ToS. Whoever plays Ricky will be digitally placed into every episode of ToS (like in Trials and Tribbelations).
So it'd be an already decided 3 year show and you can cash in on Kirk and Spock.
Brilliant? Hella.
:lol :lol :lol :lol
Greatest series idea ever.
-
The Captain Worf idea seems really, really bad. However, that opens up a whole new avenue. The Federation side of things has been beaten to death. What about show from the Klingon perspective, or even the Romulans? Hell, the adventures of Captain Kang would be a thousand times more interesting than Captain Worf. I think a series about the Romulans and their continuing struggles with those Godless, Communist Federation swine could be pretty entertaining. Hell, present the Dominion war from the perspective of the Kardassians; that'd be a hoot. Tons of ideas if you're not married to the federation.
edit: and yeah, Ensign Ricky is a pretty good idea.
-
While a show from the perspective of non humans would be very interesting to some of us, sadly most people in America would ignore it.
The only realistic perspective (from a marketing point of view) is one from the federation. However since Sci-fi reached its pinnacle with Battlestar and has then fallen steeply into the realm of shoot em up action thrillers, I wouldn't even want a new Trek show unless I knew it would be a true Trek show and not one in name only.
-
I'm not sure it makes any difference. The same people will watch or won't watch Star Trek. Non-Trek fans don't decide to watch it because of the steamy romances or thrilling intrigue. DS9 and Voyager both started around a 10 share and gradually dropped off to around 5. A new series will do exactly the same, and either that's a profitable existence or it's not.
-
I'm not sure it makes any difference. The same people will watch or won't watch Star Trek. Non-Trek fans don't decide to watch it because of the steamy romances or thrilling intrigue. DS9 and Voyager both started around a 10 share and gradually dropped off to around 5. A new series will do exactly the same, and either that's a profitable existence or it's not.
It was a different time man. DS9 and Voyager came out when Trek was at its prime as far as popularity goes. That doesn't exist anymore. Enterprise screwed up the fanbase a lot and the new movie essentially made old school ST obsolete. Audiences have changed, what's popular has changed. If a show from the Romulan world came out 10 years ago, it might have done a little worse than the rest but it would have stood a chance. Today? Not one bit.
-
Ensign Nicky Spanjaards
-
Ensign Nicky Spanjaards
I think we're on to something here Rumby.
-
Possible New Trek Series ? (https://screenrant.com/star-trek-captain-worf-tv-show-michael-dorn/)
Never gonna happen. I think literally every single ex-Trek person (aside from the ones with actual careers) has pitched at least one series idea, but CBS just aren't going to do it right now. I know Frakes pitched one a couple of years ago too, and there's currently this one-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/145553614/star-trek-renegades
Basically all of these ideas are terrible, and none of the old cast is ever going to get their own series, and with good reason. When Trek comes back to TV, it will be something starting from a clean slate, like the new movies, and not some contrived excuse for an old Trek actor to get back on TV. I didn't mean for that to sound so bitchy, but that's just putting it bluntly.
And I'm also expecting we won't see a new series until the current movie franchise is wrapped up anyway, so probably after the 3rd film.
-
Possible New Trek Series ? (https://screenrant.com/star-trek-captain-worf-tv-show-michael-dorn/)
Never gonna happen. I think literally every single ex-Trek person (aside from the ones with actual careers) has pitched at least one series idea, but CBS just aren't going to do it right now. I know Frakes pitched one a couple of years ago too, and there's currently this one-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/145553614/star-trek-renegades
That was one of the most horrible and depressing things I've ever seen.
-
I don't know, it's not like Renegades is aiming at anything other than a web series. If they want to do some limited pet project for fans, so what? It would hardly matter in the grand scheme of Trek.
-
I don't know, it's not like Renegades is aiming at anything other than a web series. If they want to do some limited pet project for fans, so what? It would hardly matter in the grand scheme of Trek.
"It is our hope that CBS finds "Star Trek: Renegades" to be a worthy endeavor and will continue the Star Trek franchise and legacy as an online episodic series (or on their own broadcast or cable network)."
Either way, they're looking for official status from CBS, which is equally sad and unlikely.
There's obviously nothing wrong with them making an unofficial fan series, and I think it's great that Paramount/CBS is so lenient in regards to fan stuff like this. I don't see them reaching their target for this project though, and they're deluding themselves if they think CBS would make this official, even for a web series.
-
I always liked the general idea of the time war they had in Enterprise, but the execution was lacking. A series based on that could have marvelous potential for stories.
-
I don't know, it's not like Renegades is aiming at anything other than a web series. If they want to do some limited pet project for fans, so what? It would hardly matter in the grand scheme of Trek.
I can still find it depressing as hell. It looks like they found Keonig at a retirement home and threw the uniform on him and had him read the lines between his med times.
-
Possible New Trek Series ? (https://screenrant.com/star-trek-captain-worf-tv-show-michael-dorn/)
Never gonna happen. I think literally every single ex-Trek person (aside from the ones with actual careers) has pitched at least one series idea, but CBS just aren't going to do it right now. I know Frakes pitched one a couple of years ago too, and there's currently this one-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/145553614/star-trek-renegades
:omg: Haha - that looks awful. They look like they're taking the piss and it has the feel of a couple of kids and a camcorder making Star Trek in their living room.
-
Possible New Trek Series ? (https://screenrant.com/star-trek-captain-worf-tv-show-michael-dorn/)
Never gonna happen. I think literally every single ex-Trek person (aside from the ones with actual careers) has pitched at least one series idea, but CBS just aren't going to do it right now. I know Frakes pitched one a couple of years ago too, and there's currently this one-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/145553614/star-trek-renegades
:omg: Haha - that looks awful. They look like they're taking the piss and it has the feel of a couple of kids and a camcorder making Star Trek in their living room.
Well if there's one thing to learn from that awful "trailer" it's that Walter Koenig and Tim Russ will do just about anything for a pay check.
-
It just seems so half assed and amateurish. :lol
" Ve need - Ze bezt......
Ve need.....
Ze Wenegadez.."
Enter Walter's neighbor with a stormtrooper outfit on and a darth vader helmet and a batman utility belt.
" Zo - you vanted ze best ? vell you've got....Darth Awesome !!! "
-
Well if there's one thing to learn from that awful "trailer" it's that Walter Koenig and Tim Russ will do just about anything for a pay check.
I doubt there's much of a paycheck involved at all. As for necessity, Tim Russ stays pretty busy. I suspect he makes enough money that anything they offered him for that thing would be a pittance.
He showed up in a DS9 episode the other day. He actually made an excellent Klingon.
-
Well if there's one thing to learn from that awful "trailer" it's that Walter Koenig and Tim Russ will do just about anything for a pay check.
I doubt there's much of a paycheck involved at all. As for necessity, Tim Russ stays pretty busy. I suspect he makes enough money that anything they offered him for that thing would be a pittance.
He showed up in a DS9 episode the other day. He actually made an excellent Klingon.
Tim Russ played a Klingon? Can't remember that episode off hand.
Although I do remember him playing alternate universe Tuvok. I liked that idea quite a bit.
-
Yeah, alternate universe Tuvok was a nice touch to do a crossover. Shame Bashir didn't stay as the new holodoc, he could have been on that one Voyager episode. Tim Russ Klingon was when Dax was being stolen, an early episode. I think it's funny seeing him in Generations, too, shame they hadn't made him Vulcan, there.
-
I don't know, it's not like Renegades is aiming at anything other than a web series. If they want to do some limited pet project for fans, so what? It would hardly matter in the grand scheme of Trek.
"It is our hope that CBS finds "Star Trek: Renegades" to be a worthy endeavor and will continue the Star Trek franchise and legacy as an online episodic series (or on their own broadcast or cable network)."
Either way, they're looking for official status from CBS, which is equally sad and unlikely.
There's obviously nothing wrong with them making an unofficial fan series, and I think it's great that Paramount/CBS is so lenient in regards to fan stuff like this. I don't see them reaching their target for this project though, and they're deluding themselves if they think CBS would make this official, even for a web series.
Be fair, that's only one part of what they wrote. The only 'guaranteed' product is the one film to be released non-profit. They call their greater goals lofty, and they only mention tv as an afterthought. It is a fan project, albeit a premium one. ...and the why not pitch it to CBS? The webisodes sounds like what they hope to do through fan funding anyways, you never know when you'll catch a break.
-
Yeah, alternate universe Tuvok was a nice touch to do a crossover. Shame Bashir didn't stay as the new holodoc, he could have been on that one Voyager episode. Tim Russ Klingon was when Dax was being stolen, an early episode. I think it's funny seeing him in Generations, too, shame they hadn't made him Vulcan, there.
Last time I went through DS9 I skipped all the mirror universe episodes. If I can make it through the series again, I'll make a point to watch them this time. I didn't know Bashir was ever an EMH.
And I might not have noticed Tuvok as the Klingon if I hadn't seen his name in the opening credits.
-
He wasn't an EMH, he was just supposed to be the new model. That was when Bashir was outed as an x-man, Picardo was guest starring in the episode.
-
Yeah, alternate universe Tuvok was a nice touch to do a crossover. Shame Bashir didn't stay as the new holodoc, he could have been on that one Voyager episode. Tim Russ Klingon was when Dax was being stolen, an early episode. I think it's funny seeing him in Generations, too, shame they hadn't made him Vulcan, there.
You didn't like Andy Dick?
-
I did, I enjoyed the episode. It was just a missed opportunity for a crossover.
-
I did, I enjoyed the episode. It was just a missed opportunity for a crossover.
I was being sarcastic. It's Andy Dick. No one likes him.
-
I seem to recall that aside from being a little annoying he played pretty well against Picardo. I also haven't seen the episode since it originally aired.
-
I seem to recall that aside from being a little annoying he played pretty well against Picardo.
He doesn't have to do anything wrong, he's Andy Dick. His mere existence necessitates his dislike.
-
Did he spurn you at the alter?
-
Did he spurn you at the alter?
He's Andy Dick.
-
Did he spurn you at the alter?
He's Andy Dick.
-
I agree with all of that.
-
:dunno:
The only thing I know about Andy Dick is that he was on Newsradio.
-
I'm not saying that Andy Dick is gay, but he's been known to guess the flavor of a popsicle just by sitting on it.
-
Man, that Renegade clip is awful. Also, good job at getting two of the most lifeless actors of Star Trek into your trailer.
-
Koenig really sounds like he can't be bothered.
-
I think it shows how bad of an actor he is. He probably relied on massive direction by Roddenberry back in the day, but without it his acting is just lifeless.
-
I didn't know Tim Russ was in a DS9 ep.
I remember him being in the TNG ep Starship Mine playing a pirate of sorts.
And he was in Generations too you say? That's an impressive Trek resume right there. :)
-
Btw, I was wondering today, what exactly makes those fan films look so "garage with couple of dudes"? It's not the costumes, nor the sets. The sets and costumes were far worse in TOS, but nonetheless it had a cinematic feel.
Additionally, I remember seeing additional camera scenes from ST Generations once, and they had the same garage feel. Same scene, same lighting.
Is it that 24fps blur that makes it "movie"? And, is that what's simply missing in those fan films?
-
Btw, I was wondering today, what exactly makes those fan films look so "garage with couple of dudes"? It's not the costumes, nor the sets. The sets and costumes were far worse in TOS, but nonetheless it had a cinematic feel.
Additionally, I remember seeing additional camera scenes from ST Generations once, and they had the same garage feel. Same scene, same lighting.
Is it that 24fps blur that makes it "movie"? And, is that what's simply missing in those fan films?
I think it's a combination of factors, some more subliminal than others.
The picture didn't look very sharp to me, which made it feel amateur (even for Youtube it seemed soft), and the colours give it away too. A movie or even TV show wouldn't leave the colours so "raw" and dull. They'd always correct the colours and apply filters, often to emulate the film look (because a digital camera captures light differently to film), and add a tint or something to give it some mood. Compare the colour saturation of this to the average Hollywood movie, or to CSI. :lol
I've seen cheap home made videos that have done a much better job copying the film look with just a quick After Effects plugin.
And the camera movement is always a giveaway to me too. It's usually either dead-looking tripod shots, or crummy hand held shots.
-
I went to a wedding the other day where they had a guy with a Steadicam :lol
-
Wow, this thread is long. I couldn't read all of it so apologies if this has been asked: I've never watched Star Trek, what is a good starting point? The series is available on Netflix and I would like to watch some episodes during my 3-day fall break.
-
I would suggest watching the movie "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan". Self-contained, and considered the best ST movie.
rumborak
-
I would suggest watching the movie "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan". Self-contained, and considered the best ST movie.
rumborak
Then Watch The Undiscovered Country.
-
I'd watch the 10 or 15 best episodes of TOS, then watch the movies. Then do the same thing with TNG. If you decide you really like one or the other, then you can go back and watch the lesser episodes. Once you're familiar with the ST universe, then watch DS9 and Voyager in their entirety.
-
When you start with TOS, avoid Season 3. The quality dropoff is quite noticable, as Gene distanced himself from the day-to-day production and the budget continued to get slashed.
I would skip ST:TMP, as I don't feel it adds anything to the canon. ST:2-4 have a nice overall arc that can be appreciated without significant Trek knowledge (though watching the episode ‘Space Seed’ will help).
-
Thanks everybody for the advice. I will start with The Original Series. I think I watched a ST movie sometime ago where they travel through time and Spock cheats a machine or something like that, I enjoyed it but it wasn't the same since I didn't know the characters' background.
-
Thanks everybody for the advice. I will start with The Original Series. I think I watched a ST movie sometime ago where they travel through time and Spock cheats a machine or something like that, I enjoyed it but it wasn't the same since I didn't know the characters' background.
WERE THERE WHALES INVOLVED?!?!?! :JayOctavarium:
-
Admiral - THERE BE WHALES HERE !
-
I like The Motion Picture.
It has a really interesting story IMO.
-
People kept banging on about how Quinto looked like a young Nimoy - but I couldn't see it. Just because he had the same haircut - ears and uniform etc..
I thought the actor who played Sarek in ST09 looked way more similar to Mark Lenard.
Sarek Prime :
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081209024933/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/a/a9/Sarek,_2268.jpg/292px-Sarek,_2268.jpg)
Sarek 2009 :
(https://travelingwithjim.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/bencrosssarek.jpg?w=594)
-
I think Quinto has a good resemblance to a young Nimoy. He's got the strong jaw line, and has a similar look in the lips and eyes.
I don't think new Sarek was very good in resemblance or performance.
-
Quinto displayed Spock's human side a lot more than Nimoy did in TOS in my opinion.
Sarek was only a cameo at best - so is hard to judge on that basis.
I think Pine did a fine Kirk and John Cho was adequate as Sulu.
Anton Yelchin is actually Russian so his accent seems even more bizarre because of that :lol
But Pegg's Scott was pretty much the weakest link for me.
It's a shame they didn't get Chris Doohan to play him as he is the spitting image of Scotty at that age.
He even has a cameo in the transporter room - and his smile is identical to Jimmy's.
(https://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsD/91590-27474.jpg)
-
Scotty was strictly comic relief in that movie. I don't think it mattered who they got. Strange, since Scotty was generally one of the most serious of the bunch.
-
I thought the guy who played Bones did a great job. For me, the scene where we meet him was the high point of the film.
-
So sad. Star Trek 2009 isn't on Netflix? I had the hankering to watch it right now... But I guess not. Damnit
-
We're discussing the 2009 cast? Well here're my thoughts.
Kirk - Took me a while to warm up to Pine, but considering the change in the timeline, I think he did a fine job. Since his character was the only one who was dramatically changed by the time line.
Spock - Syler looked almost identical to a young Nimoy. Whoever says he doesn't is nuts. However this spock was all sarcasm and quick responses. While Spock always had wit, he also had an intense wisdom and thoughtfulness that Syler completely lacked. Not to mention that the writers clearly had no clue how to write him.
Bones - Nailed it. Loved it. No complaints. Well not on his part. But obviously they wrote him to be a caricature of the original Bones.
Uhura - Worthless. Just like the original sadly.
Chekov - Like bones, was written to be a caricature of the original, but also like Bones, the actor made it kind of work.
Scotty - Worthless. Totally ruined by both the writers/the director and Simon Pegg himself. Worst casting in the whole movie.
Sulu - Meh. Not even a thought on him.
Sarek - Eh. The original Sarek was one of my favorite characers. Mark Leonard brought such a sense of dignity and regallity to him. This Sarek could have been named "Generic dad #47".
-
We're discussing the 2009 cast? Well here're my thoughts.
Kirk - Took me a while to warm up to Pine, but considering the change in the timeline, I think he did a fine job. Since his character was the only one who was dramatically changed by the time line.
Spock - Syler looked almost identical to a young Nimoy. Whoever says he doesn't is nuts. However this spock was all sarcasm and quick responses. While Spock always had wit, he also had an intense wisdom and thoughtfulness that Syler completely lacked. Not to mention that the writers clearly had no clue how to write him.
Bones - Nailed it. Loved it. No complaints. Well not on his part. But obviously they wrote him to be a caricature of the original Bones.
Uhura - Worthless. Just like the original sadly.
Chekov - Like bones, was written to be a caricature of the original, but also like Bones, the actor made it kind of work.
Scotty - Worthless. Totally ruined by both the writers/the director and Simon Pegg himself. Worst casting in the whole movie.
Sulu - Meh. Not even a thought on him.
Sarek - Eh. The original Sarek was one of my favorite characers. Mark Leonard brought such a sense of dignity and regallity to him. This Sarek could have been named "Generic dad #47".
Pretty much agree with all of this. McCoy was a parody of the original, but the original was so over the top it made perfect sense.
The Spock thing is definitely true (although I have no idea who Syler is). Spock was pretty unique among Vulcans. We've seen dozens of them throughout the series' and none of them had his quiet wisdom. Quinto played him just like any other annoyingly smug Vulcan. He seemed mostly like any of the early ones from Enterprise. Now, to be fair, I would expect that even Nimoy's Spock might have started out like that. We saw all of the people before they got to know each other, and certainly before Spock and Kirk would develop their rapport. I'm definitely interested in seeing how that works out for the second movie (probably all I'm interested in about it, in fact).
-
Oh sorry, Syler is one of Quinto's old characters from the show Heroes. I always just call Quinto Sylar.
-
Roddenberry is reported as saying that he hoped that one day someone else would make Star Trek in their vision and make it bigger and better.
Also - Majel Barrett was alleged to have been shown 2009 before she passed and she loved it.
( Can't cite sources - from memory ).
-
Roddenberry is reported as saying that he hoped that one day someone else would make Star Trek in their vision and make it bigger and better.
Also - Majel Barrett was alleged to have been shown 2009 before she passed and she loved it.
( Can't cite sources - from memory ).
What Majel Barrett thinks isn't important.
And it was bigger, but not better. I mean Michael Bay could have made ST with Megan Fox playing everyone and ships that turned into robots and made whole planets explode. Would have been huge, but not better.
Roddenberry cared about plot, characters, social commentary etc. The new movie ignored all of those things and replaced them with action.
Like I said, it wasn't a bad movie. It just wasn't really Star Trek. It was a lot closer to well.......Transformers. Which isn't at all surprising since the same people wrote both.
-
And it was bigger, but not better. I mean Michael Bay could have made ST with Megan Fox playing everyone and ships that turned into robots and made whole planets explode. Would have been huge, but not better.
That sure would have been a step down from a planet being sucked into black hole.. :p Where is Michael Bay's vision these days?
-
That's exactly a key example of problems with the new movie.
Where is the tension? They wanted a big moment in the movie to be the vulcan incident. But what was it really?
We had the stupid ninja sword fighting on the big laser thing, then Spock (totally out of character) ran down to grab mommy and daddy. Then the mother died, when she fell because it suddenly takes several minutes to get a lock on people just standing there and even though Chekov proved a minute earlier that people falling can still be transported. Then bam the planet gets suck into a black hole.
Did any one of us feel tension or remorse? Doubtful. Why? You'd think a whole planet being destroyed would have worked. But it didn't.
Because it was SUPER fast and happened all in about what....3 or 4 minutes? Kind of hard to even process that one. We were told countless billions died, but we only walk away remembering that Winona Ryder died because no one else was shown really. The planet was essentially presented as the one mountain Spock went to to get mommy and daddy. It was horribly written and horribly filmed.
So then Baldy goes to earth. We're supposed to feel tension over that? I mean we known earth will be fine, and they've already shown his means to be less than perfect. So in the end there's never really any risk or sense of true tension what so ever. Instead (as stated a lot) we just get lots of explosions, fighting and yelling.
-
I'm with you on the Vulcan explosion. It's the same problem with SW: Ep 1, where everyone on the Queen's planet are supposedly dying for lack of spacestuffs deliveries, yet the only people we ever see are bureaucrats or security guys almost all of which live.
Although that one's worse in that it happens over a much longer period and still makes the same mistake.
-
Regarding Scotty, I don't have the qualms many have regarding the 2009 version. Scotty was always a wildcard role that would be whatever the script needed at that point. So, him being somewhat over-the-top funny didn't bother me. The original Scotty used to walk into bulkheads, had drinking contests with aliens, and talked to a computer mouse.
-
Regarding Scotty, I don't have the qualms many have regarding the 2009 version. Scotty was always a wildcard role that would be whatever the script needed at that point. So, him being somewhat over-the-top funny didn't bother me. The original Scotty used to walk into bulkheads, had drinking contests with aliens, and talked to a computer mouse.
But he had character. I mean when you look back on Scotty, you know who he was.
Do you have any idea the character of 2009 Scotty?
-
He has a hard on for sandwiches?
He might have been a wild card character, but he was always a badass at his core. I suppose using him for comedic effect began after Khan. In 2009, they seem to have based him on the old, fat, bumbling Scotty.
-
That's what I mean though. There wasn't one Scotty, there were at least five of them. There's the engineer, the drunkard, the comic relief, the has-been (in Relics)...
Them adding the latest one didn't bother me too much.
-
That's what I mean though. There wasn't one Scotty, there were at least five of them. There's the engineer, the drunkard, the comic relief, the has-been (in Relics)...
Them adding the latest one didn't bother me too much.
See, there's not 5 scotties, there's mulitple aspects to his character.
He's the engineer first and foremost. He drinks cause he's Scottish. He's a little funny cause all of them were at times. I don't remember very often that everyone was serious and then he and he only brought the comedy. Spock was as much of a comic relief in the old movies.
In the new movie he was ONLY a comic relief. There was nothing else to him.
-
I don't know, I have to respectfully disagree. While Spock and others had those different aspects be part of a cohesive whole character, Scotty was always a hodgepodge of disjunct elements that never particularly worked well together.
Especially the engineer part, frankly, didn't work. Geordi actually had an engineer feel to him, a guy who lives and breathes the engine he controls, whereas Scotty felt often like someone who just happened to be closest to the com interface.
-
We shall disagree.
Cake?
-
I don't know, I have to respectfully disagree. While Spock and others had those different aspects be part of a cohesive whole character, Scotty was always a hodgepodge of disjunct elements that never particularly worked well together.
Especially the engineer part, frankly, didn't work. Geordi actually had an engineer feel to him, a guy who lives and breathes the engine he controls, whereas Scotty felt often like someone who just happened to be closest to the com interface.
I don't see that at all. If Geordi seemed more engineer-like, it's only because he had no personality whatsoever, aside from wanting to hump the warp core. That's why his best friend was a robot. Scotty not only knew everything there was to know about the ship, he had personality. While you call him a hodgepodge of character traits, the underlying trait was his deadly seriousness about the ship. Everything else (up till the movies turned him into a joke) was just different aspects of him. Drinking, carousing, etc.
Fuck cake. Cobbler.
-
Where is the tension?
This is exactly how I felt about 2009. I said that phrase so often I got bored of saying it. :)
In fact I think I agree with everything Adami has said about the film.
-
I'll join in-
Kirk - I think Pine was a great casting choice as Kirk, but the plot made him seem like a self entitled cheating a-hole who got handed everything without earning it. Had they left in the deleted scene before he stole the car, it would have slightly helped the character not seem like a complete douchebag, although there was absolutely no reason at all he should have become captain at the end. One of the biggest annoyances of the movie.
Pine would be a perfect Kirk if they wrote the character well.
Spock - He looked the part, and I think he acted it pretty well too. He's obviously written as a more human Spock, whereas original Spock less frequently allowed his human side to take control (in TOS, that is). But I liked his take on it, and considering the huge shoes he had to fill, I think he did as good as could be expected. Nimoy had an extra layer of subtlety to the character that I think is hard to emulate though.
Bones - Felt like an imitation of the original, rather than a natural character, but Urban did a good job of emulating him. And he wasn't an annoying nagger, so I'll call it a win, I guess. He wasn't well utilized though.
Uhura - Completely different to the original, and I have no problem with them trying to make her more of a character, but the character didn't even resemble Uhura. Meh.
Chekov - A complete joke. The voice sounded exactly like what it was - a kid's imitation of Chekov. Terrible, but then again, so was the original Chekov. He was only there for a throwaway accent joke.
Scotty - I like Simon Pegg as their casting choice, but he didn't really resemble the original character either. It doesn't help that he only got onto the Enterprise near the end, and then only gave a silly one-liner, so hopefully they do more with him in the next one.
Sulu - There was a Sulu in the movie? I thought John Cho was cast as the bridge's wallpaper. Another pretty much wasted character.
-
What does a first movie do in any series....
....it introduces characters.
2009 was a reintroduction. It was a nod to old-school fans, but also intended to introduce new characters to an entirely new generation that may not ever ever seen TOS. (and why is that idea so sacrilege?)
First movies are supposed to introduce characters...and they are usually a bit thinner on plot than subsequent movies. (provided they've done a good job setting up the characters....which I feel they absolutely did)
The tension? Did you see the first 20 minutes? I cried more than I have ever cried at any Star Trek movie....PERIOD. As a matter of fact, that was the first time I cried at any Star Trek movie...PERIOD. From that moment on, JJ had me completely sold hook, line and sinker. That setup emotionally set the pace for the entire movie.
-
THANK YOU.
That opening scene on the big screen was FANTASTIC.
-
What does a first movie do in any series....
....it introduces characters.
2009 was a reintroduction. It was a nod to old-school fans, but also intended to introduce new characters to an entirely new generation that may not ever ever seen TOS. (and why is that idea so sacrilege?)
First movies are supposed to introduce characters...and they are usually a bit thinner on plot than subsequent movies. (provided they've done a good job setting up the characters....which I feel they absolutely did)
I can think of several movies that are first in a series that do much more than just introduce characters, Star Wars, Back to the Future, Alien, Die Hard and The Matrix are all examples of films that manage to introduce characters AND have a full plot AND have tension placed at appropriate times.
Making a film weak under the guise of introducing characters for furthering the franchise is not something that should be approved of. Not only is it a dumb idea, it's insulting to the audience.
The tension? Did you see the first 20 minutes? I cried more than I have ever cried at any Star Trek movie....PERIOD. As a matter of fact, that was the first time I cried at any Star Trek movie...PERIOD. From that moment on, JJ had me completely sold hook, line and sinker. That setup emotionally set the pace for the entire movie.
I'm honestly glad you enjoyed it, I'm not trying to take that away. But for me the first 20 mins of a film isn't the place for tension. I'm not invested enough at that point, I've not been given the chance to care enough to feel tense.
The first 20 mins should be the time for introducing the characters and the catalyst for tension later in the movie.
Not saying that's the only way, just preferable to a movie that attempts tension in the first 20 mins then forgets about things like substantial plots and good pacing.
-
Speaking of which - the Matrix was completely self contained and the story finished at the end.
The sequels ruined the first one in that Neo was no longer the one and he actually didn't disable the matrix at the end like you saw.
Matrix Reloaded had a shit load of pointless characters. None of which added anything to the story in any way.
Matrix Revolutions at least did away with the stupid bricklayer twins and Merv's role was reduced.
Plus Bane provided an adversary within the real world that until then hadn't happened - and was played brilliantly by whoever the actor was.
If you took bits of Reloaded, Revolutions and the extra footage - maybe you would have a half decent sequel.
But the first Matrix was so perfect on it's own.
-
I agree. The sequels were a huge let down after such a strong start.
-
Although admittedly I was so excited for Reloaded that initially I preferred it to the original.
But I always enjoy films a lot more on the big screen.
There were a lot of fake scripts for Revolutions flying around before it's release and some of them were a lot better than the finished product.
The Animatrix is actually a lot more rewarding than both sequels combined.
Instead of Reloaded & Revolutions - they should have done a prequel to show how it all began..
-
So weird that you are talking about the Matrix and the 2ns and 3rd being a disappointment. The wifey and I were talking about that last night.]
As for the 2009 movie and missedthepoint. I think your missingthepoint! :biggrin: Star Wars, BTTF, Alien and Die Hard were not a revamp. jammindude is talking reboots.
-
I still stand by what I said. Just because something is a reboot shouldn't be an excuse to make a half assed movie.
Reboot or not, a film still needs to meet certain requirements. If anything reboots should try harder in this regard.
Reboots rarely do it for me, except BSG, but that's a different story heheh.
Anyway, i wasn't really intending to get all confrontational over this, sorry for getting all up your faces and shizz. :)
-
Matrix Reloaded is almost as good or as good as the first one. Get rid of the orgy scene and a little bit of the excesses and it carried some clever intrigue for the series. There was plenty to discuss about how to interpret what happened in the movie. It was fine for a middle movie. Revolutions just didn't bring along much for the ride, it's a simple savior story with destruction abound, it just couldn't hit home on anything deep and stuff like the Trinity death scene were so incredibly ill-paced. It went for 'wow' and never managed.
-
The final showdown between smith and neo didn't mean anything either.
Reloaded had way too many new characters.
Merovingian. Persephone. The Virus Twins. The Keymaker. The Train man. Seraph.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=34428.new#new
-
Well, the Train Man isn't in Reloaded, and most of those characters are affiliated with the Merovingian. Introducing a group of henchman isn't that troublesome on the viewer.
-
Most of the fights / characters in reloaded / revolutions were totally superfluous though !
BACK TO STAR TREK !!
I cannot wait for Into Darkness and it's about time we had a teaser !!!!
-
It's pretty easy to see how people start watching DS9 and blow it off before it gets good. Got a few of those here in DTF. The first two seasons really were pretty weak. Mostly a mix of good/poor episodes with no great ones. Then all of a sudden you get to Maquis I&II and the whole thing turns completely bad ass.
-
End of season 1 and beginning of season 2 is a great run, too. That's where the show first found it's long term stride, I think.
-
I really enjoyed DS9 from the start, and thought it started pretty strong for a first season.
Ok, I agree it may not have had many "great" episodes, but I thought it was very consistently good, with no stinkers that I recall. I don't think any of the other shows had a more consistent first season. Some of them had much better episodes (TOS had really hit its stride by the end of the first season with several all time classics), but they were mostly very patchy too. Just imo of course.
-
I really enjoyed DS9 from the start, and thought it started pretty strong for a first season.
Ok, I agree it may not have had many "great" episodes, but I thought it was very consistently good, with no stinkers that I recall. I don't think any of the other shows had a more consistent first season. Some of them had much better episodes (TOS had really hit its stride by the end of the first season with several all time classics), but they were mostly very patchy too. Just imo of course.
Episode for episode, I suspect Voyager kicked the living shit out of DS9 through their first seasons. That includes the all important series premiers. I thought Caretaker was excellent, and Emissary is nearly as bad as Farpoint, IMO. There were certainly a few good episodes in S1 of DS9, but most of them were pretty weak, and there were definitely some stinkers. Move Along Home? Babel? If Wishes Were Horses?
The bigger issue is that we can watch them now with the advantage of knowing he characters and realizing how good the show is overall. Somebody who's not familiar with it at all is going to have a hard time being interested. That was certainly the case with me. It's the only series that I didn't watch weekly, and didn't really develop an interest in it until it was complete and I could start watching from the third season.
-
Emissary is excellent, not sure what your problem is. DS9's first season was decent. Yes, clunkers were there, but I was hooked by the end of the season. Their biggest issue was trying to fold in TNG, in my opinion. They tried to do too many connections too early.
Voyager's first season killed what the show could have been. Caretaker was a top notch beginning, but from there things just started wiping away the great premise of the show to make another TNG. The Maquis vs Starfleet conflict turned into a superficial element, and the characters mostly became bland pretty quickly because of it, I think. Instead of us watching growth we saw things snap into pretty quickly. Watching it was so disappointing.
-
I really enjoyed DS9 from the start, and thought it started pretty strong for a first season.
Ok, I agree it may not have had many "great" episodes, but I thought it was very consistently good, with no stinkers that I recall. I don't think any of the other shows had a more consistent first season. Some of them had much better episodes (TOS had really hit its stride by the end of the first season with several all time classics), but they were mostly very patchy too. Just imo of course.
Episode for episode, I suspect Voyager kicked the living shit out of DS9 through their first seasons. That includes the all important series premiers. I thought Caretaker was excellent, and Emissary is nearly as bad as Farpoint, IMO. There were certainly a few good episodes in S1 of DS9, but most of them were pretty weak, and there were definitely some stinkers. Move Along Home? Babel? If Wishes Were Horses?
The bigger issue is that we can watch them now with the advantage of knowing he characters and realizing how good the show is overall. Somebody who's not familiar with it at all is going to have a hard time being interested. That was certainly the case with me. It's the only series that I didn't watch weekly, and didn't really develop an interest in it until it was complete and I could start watching from the third season.
I liked Move Along Home and Babel. If Wishes Were Horses was pretty bad though, I'll give you that. I watched DS9 fresh, and I had no problem at all getting into it, and that's after much resistance to seeing it at all thanks to how hyped it was. If anything I was set up to be let down, but it exceeded my expectations.
Voyager's first season was consistently watchable, but it was laughably formulaic, and was just a blur of the exact same episode recycled 25 times, with no progression of the plot they set up.
"Oh look! A spacial anomaly or planet that contains some fictional particle we apparently need to survive! Oh no, something we didn't detect is affecting the ship! We gained nothing but the ship is as good as new anyway."
And season 2 of Voyager was easily their worst as they tried to break out of that mold to do something different, and mostly fell flat, largely thanks to the barnacle afro men. Season 3 is where Voyager picked up and found its way.
And I'm a big Voyager fan (it may even be my favourite Trek series), so if I could find any way to defend it, I would have. :lol
Caretaker wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. I was much more impressed after seeing DS9's pilot. It was nowhere near the mess that was Encounter At Farpoint. Not even a comparison. I highly doubt anyone else would agree there.
-
I really enjoyed DS9 from the start, and thought it started pretty strong for a first season.
Ok, I agree it may not have had many "great" episodes, but I thought it was very consistently good, with no stinkers that I recall. I don't think any of the other shows had a more consistent first season. Some of them had much better episodes (TOS had really hit its stride by the end of the first season with several all time classics), but they were mostly very patchy too. Just imo of course.
Move along home had a dumb cop-out ending,
-
Right, they were going to kill of half the cast in one episode. :p It had to be something like that, and it should have been obvious the whole episode that there was no danger. It's only a game is a sort of, well duh, moment. You feel stupid if you bought into the danger.
-
I really enjoyed DS9 from the start, and thought it started pretty strong for a first season.
Ok, I agree it may not have had many "great" episodes, but I thought it was very consistently good, with no stinkers that I recall. I don't think any of the other shows had a more consistent first season. Some of them had much better episodes (TOS had really hit its stride by the end of the first season with several all time classics), but they were mostly very patchy too. Just imo of course.
Move along home had a dumb cop-out ending,
Move Along Home is a dumb episode (IMO) but the ending makes it, because it's an amusing reversal of similar premises in earlier Trek episodes.
-
I really enjoyed DS9 from the start, and thought it started pretty strong for a first season.
Ok, I agree it may not have had many "great" episodes, but I thought it was very consistently good, with no stinkers that I recall. I don't think any of the other shows had a more consistent first season. Some of them had much better episodes (TOS had really hit its stride by the end of the first season with several all time classics), but they were mostly very patchy too. Just imo of course.
Move along home had a dumb cop-out ending,
Move Along Home is a dumb episode (IMO) but the ending makes it, because it's an amusing reversal of similar premises in earlier Trek episodes.
I would agree. Every ST episode of every series suffers from the problem that you know nobody important is going to die. In this case, the joke was actually on the viewer since you were clearly expecting some contrived escape or silly explanation, like they always do. It also adds a damn near hysterical context to Quark's graveling. To the guy who knew there were no consequences and assumed everybody else did, that must have been absolutely freakish.
-
I didn't realize that Bashir was the first choice to play Ben Sisko. Curious how that would have worked. Certainly makes me want to see Siddig as Prince Faisal to see what Berman thought the prototype of the character was.
(https://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo299/000jesus/DangerousMan_zps1f130cab.jpg)
-
He was originally invited to audition for the role of Sisko. That doesn't necessarily mean his performances indicate what they thought Sisko was like.
-
He was originally invited to audition for the role of Sisko. That doesn't necessarily mean his performances indicate what they thought Sisko was like.
Berman saw his performance as Faisal and thought that's what he wanted Sisko to be. That changed when they realized Siddig was quite a bit younger than they had thought.
-
I knew it was because they thought he was younger, didn't realize they actually thought his performance was actually that close to how they wanted Sisko. Was it just Berman's vision of Sisko or was it something Berman and Piller were both thinking?
-
I knew it was because they thought he was younger, didn't realize they actually thought his performance was actually that close to how they wanted Sisko. Was it just Berman's vision of Sisko or was it something Berman and Piller were both thinking?
Only saw Berman talking about it. No idea about Pillar.
-
I'm watching Generations where Data pushes Crusher into the sea when she tells him "to get into the spirit of things". Am I the only one who thought that it *was* actually funny? I mean, she egged him on, and nobody got harmed. Sounds funny to me. It's what thousands of people do at swimming pools every day.
-
I agree. I thought Data actually got it, but everyone turned on him like he was an asshole for doing it. Geordi looks him straight in the eye and tells him that it just wasn't funny. I was thinking they all needed to lighten up.
-
From their perspective, Data pushed her for no reason.
-
But there's never a "reason" to push someone into the water. Maybe my perspective is fucked because I'm personally not into practical jokes or punking or whatever, but as far as I can tell, people push other people into the water simply because they think it's funny. There doesn't appear to be any reason behind it. So Riker "misspoke" and told the holodeck to remove the plank, sending Worf into the water. How is that different from Data pushing Beverly in? They got wet; it's funny, right?
-
Well, one was hazing, one was just random. It was Worf's turn, so supposedly Troi had already gone through this. Not that it makes sense, but ritual vs picking on.
-
I haven't seen it in a while, but I seem to recall a rather shocked look on Worf's face. He wasn't expecting it, and I suppose it's extra funny because we know how much Worf hates to get wet. But you're right; if it's hazing, then it's in a somewhat different category. You go through the ceremony, you end up wet, it's part of the deal.
-
Worf was shocked because he thought he had outsmarted them by avoiding falling in, in the first place.
-
Ah, that's right. He was able to reach the hat, or something.
-
Well, one was hazing, one was just random. It was Worf's turn, so supposedly Troi had already gone through this. Not that it makes sense, but ritual vs picking on.
I thought Riker said remove instead of retract by mistake. Picard even tells him thusly.
So I don't think it was deliberate.
-
But when Riker admits that he used the wrong word, he's got a grin on his face that says "Yeah, it was a mistake, right."
-
Worf was supposed to fall in from missing the hat, Riker just rectified the situation.
-
On a different note, I read Denise Crosby's Wikipedia page, and from there got to her Playboy pictures. Dang, I have to say.
-
On a different note, I read Denise Crosby's Wikipedia page, and from there got to her Playboy pictures. Dang, I have to say.
Meh. She never did much for me. I know the Playboy shoot was from 79, but I don't know if they used it then. They ran it when she was in TNG and they wanted to capitalize on her.
I wasn't aware that she and Sirtis were originally considered for each other's parts. In retrospect, that might have worked much better. I think Sirtis could have played a tough, head of security type and also looked pretty good doing it. And at the same time, we wouldn't have to listen to her pedantic psychobabble and incessant whining. That might well have made the two worst characters pretty good.
-
They gave her a horrendous hairdo for the Playboy shoot, but her body is pretty damn awesome.
In terms of Sirtis vs. Crosby, I think they made the correct choice. Crosby is tall and athletic, whereas Sirtis is rather the curvaceous type. Works better for a supposedly sensual woman.
-
They gave her a horrendous hairdo for the Playboy shoot, but her body is pretty damn awesome.
Yeah, I'd buy that.
In terms of Sirtis vs. Crosby, I think they made the correct choice. Crosby is tall and athletic, whereas Sirtis is rather the curvaceous type. Works better for a supposedly sensual woman.
Sirtis could have toned up nicely in a few weeks and been fine for the part. It's not the curves that would have been a problem, but rather that she was soft. Easy to rectify. From my perspective, they were both awful, so I have a hard time seeing how they could have been any worse.
-
Women in Star Trek were always problematic, sadly. Even when they decided to make them captain.
-
Women in Star Trek were always problematic, sadly. Even when they decided to make them captain.
No....they weren't...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoBoMvY0U10
-
I'm now pretty confident that Star Trek Into Darkness will wipe the floor with Star Wars Episode 7.
:tup
-
I'm now pretty confident that Star Trek Into Darkness will wipe the floor with Star Wars Episode 7.
:tup
You know, I really do like the fact that you love the new ST stuff so much. I mean I really do, I love the franchise and even if I don't dig it, I hope the franchise continues on, thanks to guys like you.
However you really have to stop pointing how much better ST 2009 (and future films) are than the post trilogy SW films.
I didn't care much for the new ST movie, neither did Bart or a lot of other people. But I think you'd have a very hard time finding anyone who doesn't hate ST who thinks the SW movies (minus 4-6) are better than them.
-
I'm on episode 4 of Season 1 and what I've watched so far is fantastic. For some reason, I thought Star Trek was some tame series without all the action and fun. But man, the writing is incredible, everything is pretty solid and even though it's old, it doesn't suffer because it's not focused on showy display of technology and battles. I thought Star Wars and other series were more fun but this might beat them all.
-
TOS? I'm glad there are some people who still appreciate the thing. Most of the people here grew up on TNG and aren't crazy about TOS. It certainly has the advantage of being old-school science fiction.
-
Hey, I appreciate TOS. It's one of my top 10 favourite comedies!
-
For anyone that didn't see it, Robot Chicken had a great TOS parody this week. I've been waiting for it to appear on Youtube (official link, definitely NSFW)-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=264s-sFqvTA
-
:rollin
-
(https://i.imgur.com/14FEj.jpg)
-
....someone kidnapped all of the TNG members together to set the background so he can propose to his asian Ezri Dax look alike?
....okay.
-
She seems to be sitting on Crusher's lap.
And Data just looks more and more annoyed every year.
-
She seems to be sitting on Crusher's lap.
And Data just looks more and more annoyed every year.
Yea, his obvious dislike of ST in general makes him hilarious to watch at conventions (on youtube, duh).
Personally I think they all need a TV show reunion, but one that isn't sci-fi at all. Almost all of them are terrible actors, but if you ever just see them as people together, they have amazing chemistry because they're all actually good friends. And they're rather lovely to watch just hanging out.
-
Yeah, the videos from conventions and such are a hoot. I like that Piccard and Data heckle each other from the audience. Along with Riker, they seem to be the funniest of the lot.
-
Yeah, the videos from conventions and such are a hoot. I like that Piccard and Data heckle each other from the audience. Along with Riker, they seem to be the funniest of the lot.
Yea, I had no idea that Frakes had so much....energy on stage. The man is like....60? He acts 20.
I honestly felt bad for Tasha at the big convention this year. She just kind of sat there forever quietly and when she was finally given a question, she was truly shocked to be noticed.
-
Another fantastic face palm from Patrick Stewart.
-
Facepalming should just be called "Picarding" at this point.
-
I love their collective facial expressions though.
Dorn - Shocked
Sirtis - Shocked
Crusher - Shocked
Frakes - Shocked
Spiner and Burton - Couldn't give a crap
Also, any context behind that picture? I'd love to know what the hell brought all of that together.
-
My guess would be that it was a meet and greet photo-op, where nerds pay $500 to have their picture taken with the cast, and he chose that opportunity to propose. They could have done the same thing with DT. In fact, the expressions would probably be exactly the same. :lol
-
Wil Wheaton explains the situation. (https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/12rtjs/man_proposes_to_girlfriend_in_front_of_entire/c6xosdg)
Here's a picture with less facepalm, with a look of pure excitement from Wil:
(https://i.imgur.com/edGyV.jpg)
-
Awwww
Also, she ain't bad. Lucky bald nerd guy.
Gives me hope for myself.
-
I love the Picard facepalm in that pic. :lol At least Brent Spiner almost looks like he cares in the second pic.
-
I love the Picard facepalm in that pic. :lol At least Brent Spiner almost looks like he cares in the second pic.
Someone probably flashed him a paycheck.
-
Well he is looking in the direction of the camera, so that's all the proof I need.
-
From the Reddit comments: "When Star Trek tells you to engage, you make it so"
(Even more fitting because Sirtis egged them on earlier for not being married)
-
From the Reddit comments: "When Star Trek tells you to engage, you make it so"
(Even more fitting because Sirtis egged them on earlier for not being married)
There's a video on Youtube of a guy proposing to his girl in front of Patrick Stewart at a convention, and Stewart actually says "engaged!"
-
From the Reddit comments: "When Star Trek tells you to engage, you make it so"
(Even more fitting because Sirtis egged them on earlier for not being married)
There's a video on Youtube of a guy proposing to his girl in front of Patrick Stewart at a convention, and Stewart actually says "engaged!"
And the reason you haven't linked us to this video?
Make it so!
-
You drive a hard bargain, sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QIsHQfKZ4g
-
You drive a hard bargain, sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QIsHQfKZ4g
Wow, a hottie.
The hell happened? When did nerds start to land girls like that?
-
You drive a hard bargain, sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QIsHQfKZ4g
Wow, a hottie.
The hell happened? When did nerds start to land girls like that?
When they started running the world.
-
George Takei in a new ad. Just saw him post it on Facebook, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who won't see it there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK6BbebwhWM
-
WTF :lol
Watched "Of Gods and Men" yesterday with my roommate. Was definitely the best fan-produced episode I've ever seen but man, that had to be the biggest insider-knowledge episode ever made.
-
9 minute preview to be screened with the Hobbit of Star Trek Into Darkness.
-
9 minute preview to be screened with the Hobbit of Star Trek Into Darkness.
Oh boy, is that for the whole world?
I wanted to see The Hobbit anyway, so this would be like double for me. :hat
-
No word yet on whether it's just the US .
Think it's only IMAX 3D screenings too.
I'm sure more deets will be revealed closer to the Dec 14th Date.
+ I've got zero interest in the Hobbit though so I might have to wait until an official trailer is released online.
-
Ah, well I wouldn't be seeing it IMAX anyway.
And I just noticed that The Hobbit comes out almost two weeks later here than the US, so maybe I'll see bits online before then anyway?
-
I may just crack and watch a cinema camera jobbie but I'll try my best to wait until there's a 1080p HD trailer on YouTube or Apple Trailers.
Can't fookin wait !!
-
I have no idea why they put "exclusive" footage in movies anyway, don't they usually just get put online the same day?
-
Whatever . It's showing in front of The Hobbit in IMAX 3D in the UK on Dec 13.
I'm hoping a teaser or a trailer will be out around then.
I'm not up for paying to go to IMAX 3D to see a film in which I have zero interest primarily to see a Star Trek preview.
Furthermore - I don't want to watch the first ten minutes of a film. It's a trailer - or the entire film on May 17th.
-
Yea, I agree with you about the first 9 minutes or whatever. I'd really rather watch a good 2-3 minute trailer.
Has there been any word on when we can expect one?
-
Yea, I agree with you about the first 9 minutes or whatever. I'd really rather watch a good 2-3 minute trailer.
Has there been any word on when we can expect one?
When they finally finish adding in all the lens flare.
So next year likely. :neverusethis:
-
Yea, I agree with you about the first 9 minutes or whatever. I'd really rather watch a good 2-3 minute trailer.
Has there been any word on when we can expect one?
When they finally finish adding in all the lens flare.
So next year likely. :neverusethis:
I wonder if people like JJ take online criticism seriously. I mean, I hope he does. He caught a LOT of flak online for the intense lens flair.....I wonder if he will actually cut down on it.
Probably not.
-
UPDATE
Star Trek Official Trailer will debut with REGULAR screenings of The Hobbit
So you won't have to fork out for 3D IMAX just to see a preview of S.T.I.D.
The Hobbit Opens Dec 14 in the US - Dec 13 in the UK.
I might have to go see The Hobbit now just for the ST trailer.
-
UPDATE
Star Trek Official Trailer will debut with REGULAR screenings of The Hobbit
So you won't have to fork out for 3D IMAX just to see a preview of S.T.I.D.
The Hobbit Opens Dec 14 in the US - Dec 13 in the UK.
I might have to go see The Hobbit now just for the ST trailer.
The wording is confusing. It means 1 of 2 things, if you know which they are, please tell us.
1. Both 3D and normal versions of the Hobbit will include the 9 minute preview.
or
2. The 3D contains the 9 minute preview and the normal version has a standard 3-4 minute trailer.
-
Sorry for confusion.
2. is of course correct.
-
I'm not a big LOTR fan - but I will gladly sit through a film i've not much interest in to see STID trailer on the big screen .
-
Hmm, well if after a week after the release the trailer isn't online, I'll go see it. But not the 9 minute version.
-
No i think it's daft watching the first ten minutes of a film 6 months before it's out.
I want to go in to see Star Trek Into Darkness knowing as little about it as possible.
I know it will be difficult - i'm a huge Trek fan but I will try to limit myself to official trailers at most.
I did the same with Prometheus and I enjoyed it a lot more not knowing what was coming.
-
I want to go in to see Star Trek Into Darkness knowing as little about it as possible.
Good way to view the new franchise since I'm pretty sure people behind it went in knowing as little about Star Trek as possible.
:neverusethis:
-
:biggrin: I'm not having this discussion again !!!
I'm a lifelong Trekker and I absolutely LOVED Star Trek ( 2009 ).
And I'm sure i'll enjoy ST Into Darkness just as much.
:)
-
:biggrin: I'm not having this discussion again !!!
I'm a lifelong Trekker and I absolutely LOVED Star Trek ( 2009 ).
And I'm sure i'll enjoy ST Into Darkness just as much.
:)
Hey man, just because I didn't care much for the last one and have 0 respect for the writing team doesn't mean I won't give the new one a fair chance. I'll see it opening day most likely and try my best to love it.
But if I don't, boy oh boy will this board hear about it.
-
:biggrin: I'm not having this discussion again !!!
I'm a lifelong Trekker and I absolutely LOVED Star Trek ( 2009 ).
And I'm sure i'll enjoy ST Into Darkness just as much.
:)
I was sure I'd enjoy Nemesis. :'(
-
:biggrin: I'm not having this discussion again !!!
I'm a lifelong Trekker and I absolutely LOVED Star Trek ( 2009 ).
And I'm sure i'll enjoy ST Into Darkness just as much.
:)
I was sure I'd enjoy Nemesis. :'(
Say what you will about Nemesis (and there's a lot to say) but I still really felt it when Data died.
-
Nemesis was great on the big screen - although it was blatantly trying to be Wrath Of Khan and the director actually did have no clue about Trek whereas JJ has at least heard of it.
-
:biggrin: I'm not having this discussion again !!!
I'm a lifelong Trekker and I absolutely LOVED Star Trek ( 2009 ).
And I'm sure i'll enjoy ST Into Darkness just as much.
:)
I was sure I'd enjoy Nemesis. :'(
Say what you will about Nemesis (and there's a lot to say) but I still really felt it when Data died.
I felt it too....it was this...little bit more than nausea, not quite wretching...
:angel:
-
Say what you will about Nemesis (and there's a lot to say) but I still really felt it when Data died.
It's sad when Spock dies. Data's death just seems like a forced recreation. I tried to like it, but it was really too formulaic.
What providing a nine minute snipped tells me is that JJA hasn't changed his formula one bit. It'll be a standalone action sequence just like the first nine minutes of 2009. Shitload of phasers, explosions, lens flares and chaos. So many cuts won't have any idea what the hell's really going on. It'll end when the opening credits roll.
-
What made Data's death emotional for me wasn't how it was written....which wasn't great, but it was the reaction from the rest of the cats who all did a stellar job, as well as Spiner's performance going into the whole thing.
Also, while I think it was a true shining moment for Shatner, the fact that I already knew Spock would come back (not their fault obviously), I kind of robbed myself of an emotional reaction to it.
-
What made Data's death emotional for me wasn't how it was written....which wasn't great, but it was the reaction from the rest of the cats who all did a stellar job, as well as Spiner's performance going into the whole thing.
Also, while I think it was a true shining moment for Shatner, the fact that I already knew Spock would come back (not their fault obviously), I kind of robbed myself of an emotional reaction to it.
Yeah, Spock's death really was a highlight for Kirk and Shatner. Funny that Shatner resisted the whole thing so much. As for being spoiled by knowing the outcome, I saw it in theaters during it's original release, and the expectation was that he wouldn't be back. Nimoy wanted to character dead. Didn't have that problem. What I did have was a pretty strong hunch they were going to kill Data by the end of Nemesis, so that was anti-climactic for me. Part of the reason his death didn't do much for me was that by the time it happened, I'd been expecting it for 45 minutes.
-
Ah I gotcha. Totally opposite for me. I hadn't seen Kahn will way after I got into TNG (I was much younger) so I had already seen Spock on there, and had already seen Voyage Home and knew he was back.
And I had no clue Data was going to die. I mean, until he decided to leave the ship and stuff.
-
They made of point of introducing a new chassis for Data which for some reason was having software issues, and separately, they just happened to make a full backup of Data. I thought it was pretty clear that "if" something happened to Data, they'd left the door wide open for him to return. It parallelled Spock's death, "backup" and return so closely that it seemed really obvious to me. But I guess if you hadn't seen the TOS movies first, it wouldn't be.
-
Spock's death however also caused one of Shatner's worst acting performances. That monologue, which ends in "most ... human" is so devoid of emotion, it's terrible. The writers are of course also at fault; throughout the series Spock viewed it as an insult to be likened to humans. And then they do it in his eulogy.
-
Spock's death however also caused one of Shatner's worst acting performances. That monologue, which ends in "most ... human" is so devoid of emotion, it's terrible. The writers are of course also at fault; throughout the series Spock viewed it as an insult to be likened to humans. And then they do it in his eulogy.
Wow...I could not disagree more. IMO, the "most...human" line is the single most gut-wrenchingly emotional delivery in all 11 films put together. #2 would be (again, IMO) when Kirk's son is killed in SFS, and when Kirk steps back, he trips on his chair. I have a feeling that it was accidental, but left in the final cut anyway...and it's PERFECT.
-
They made of point of introducing a new chassis for Data which for some reason was having software issues, and separately, they just happened to make a full backup of Data. I thought it was pretty clear that "if" something happened to Data, they'd left the door wide open for him to return. It parallelled Spock's death, "backup" and return so closely that it seemed really obvious to me. But I guess if you hadn't seen the TOS movies first, it wouldn't be.
Nemesis had so many Wrath Of Khan nods that you could almost consider it a remake.
-
They made of point of introducing a new chassis for Data which for some reason was having software issues, and separately, they just happened to make a full backup of Data. I thought it was pretty clear that "if" something happened to Data, they'd left the door wide open for him to return. It parallelled Spock's death, "backup" and return so closely that it seemed really obvious to me. But I guess if you hadn't seen the TOS movies first, it wouldn't be.
Nemesis had so many Wrath Of Khan nods that you could almost consider it a remake.
...a remake by a film crew culled from the Special Olympics....
-
Yes - Stuart Baird or whoever he is that directed Nemesis didn't even like Trek or know anything about it.
JJ is at least a fan of Trek.
-
Neither Harve Bennett nor Nick Meyers had seen any ST before cranking out TWoK. If you're good at what you do, that shouldn't matter. They watched all of the original episodes and went from there.
-
The Official Synopsis has been released.
It obviously doesn't give away too much but it's the first inside info about the plot we've had so far.
-
https://trekweb.com/articles/2012/11/27/MAJOR-NEWS-The-Synopsis-for-Star-Trek-Into-Darkness-Revealed-HUGE-SPOILERS.shtml
-
Thanks, last link I found for it was broken. :(
-
That synopsis definitely sounds like a Gary Mitchell story-line.
-
So the 2nd new ST movie is about Kirk going head on in a vengeful fight with a powerful guy?
I wish I could put my finger on what it reminds of me....but I just Khan't.
By the way, did that thing really say that the bad guy "detonated the fleet"?
Didn't the last movie rest on all the ships being destroyed and the Enterprise being the last one left? I hope it's not the same thing again.
-
That synopsis definitely sounds like a Gary Mitchell story-line.
That's the first thing I thought of. The smart move would have been to incorporate Mitchell into the first movie, though.
The other possibility is of course Garth of Izar.
-
The other possibility is of course Garth of Izar.
Nope, not him. Dana Carvey hasn't been cast.
-
Catching up on the last 10 pages or so of ST chat but I'm watching TOS: "The Naked Time" right now, first TOS episode I'm really enjoying.
-
Didn't the last movie rest on all the ships being destroyed and the Enterprise being the last one left?
No, the primary fleet was occupied in the Laurentian System. That's why they had to send a bunch of cadets on a rescue operation. The big argument between Kirk and Spock was whether to pursue Nero or rendezvous with the rest of the fleet.
-
Official Poster Revealed !!
(https://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b310/midnite4/556680_455055074531984_1330617712_n.jpg)
-
That poster is badass.
-
It is.
However - my one concern - with the synopsis and this poster is that I hope the majority of the film is not set om Earth.
-
I haven't read anything on the new movie and it probably has nothing to do with this at all - but it looks like a Borg ship with a hole in it.
-
However - my one concern - with the synopsis and this poster is that I hope the majority of the film is not set om Earth.
Synopsis sounds like only the setup for the movie will be on Earth.
-
I haven't read anything on the new movie and it probably has nothing to do with this at all - but it looks like a Borg ship with a hole in it.
Or a building - but there's no Borg in this movie. It's a bout 100 years too soon.
-
I haven't read anything on the new movie and it probably has nothing to do with this at all - but it looks like a Borg ship with a hole in it.
Or a building - but there's no Borg in this movie. It's a bout 100 years too soon.
BUT ENTERPRISE
*hides*
-
Those borg all took off though, right?
-
Those borg all took off though, right?
I don't know. I think my mind has suppressed most of Enterprise, but I'll assume you're correct.
Plus they were left there because of the events in FC, which probably don't happen in this timeline anyway.
-
Those borg all took off though, right?
I don't know. I think my mind has suppressed most of Enterprise, but I'll assume you're correct.
Plus they were left there because of the events in FC, which probably don't happen in this timeline anyway.
Well see that's what's interesting. While the future events of First Contact won't happen in the new timeline, everything before Nero came back is the same as the original. So everything in Enterprise is still cannon as far as I'm aware. And because the Borg fell back in the time of James Cromwell, then all of that still happened in the new time line.
Either way, dunno how much I like the plot of the new movie. It just kind of screams "modern generic sci-fi/action movie". But I will probably see it opening day cause I love Star Trek anyway and will have a very open mind.
-
Those borg all took off though, right?
I don't know. I think my mind has suppressed most of Enterprise, but I'll assume you're correct.
Plus they were left there because of the events in FC, which probably don't happen in this timeline anyway.
Well see that's what's interesting. While the future events of First Contact won't happen in the new timeline, everything before Nero came back is the same as the original. So everything in Enterprise is still cannon as far as I'm aware. And because the Borg fell back in the time of James Cromwell, then all of that still happened in the new time line.
Time travel is always messed up, so it depends on how they're dealing with it, but regardless I think it's very safe to say that the new timeline won't be relying on anything from the old timeline, since that's kind of the whole point. If they ever introduce the Borg, it will be "fresh".
And I'm not too interested in the new Trek movie either, especially if it's based on a terrible TOS episode. But I'll also be seeing it as soon as it comes out anyway. I enjoyed Trek XI despite all of it's flaws, so I'm sure I'll enjoy this one too regardless of any flaws.
-
Oh yea, I know the Borg won't be in it. Just pointing out that the events of Enterprise (including the Borg stuff) still happened in the new timeline.
I should probably point that even though, intellectually I didn't really care for 95% of the new movie, I still enjoyed it in a brainless entertainment kind of way.
-
STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS TEASER TRAILER RELEASED ONLINE ON THURSDAY...
:metal :metal :metal :corn :corn :corn
Gonna be " About a minute or so " or so I gather.. Either way, things are being released nicely now !!
-
the whole looks like a comm badge
-
the whole looks like a comm badge
How I didn't see that is beyond me.
-
Panda just pointed that out to me after I said "this pic doesn't say star trek to me at all"
-
Man, I didn't see that, either. I was thinking the exact same thing, that there was nothing "Star Trek" about it, just some generic post-destruction scenario.
Not just a comm badge, it's the Starfleet logo.
(https://images.wikia.com/astroempires/images/0/06/UFP_logo.gif)
-
It wasn't the starfleet logo until the movies. Originally it was just the Enterprise logo. Just FYI.
-
Ah, that's right. Each ship had different shaped communicators. A cool idea, but realistically didn't make a lot of sense.
-
Ah, that's right. Each ship had different shaped communicators. A cool idea, but realistically didn't make a lot of sense.
Yea, making it the starfleet symbol was the right move. Especially considering how lame some of the others were.
-
I thought the Starfleet logo thing was pretty obvious. Spotted it right away. But in everyone else's defense, I am a huge nerd. :blob:
Can't wait to see a trailer, because the plot synopsis does nothing for me.
-
I thought the Starfleet logo thing was pretty obvious. Spotted it right away. But in everyone else's defense, I am a huge nerd. :blob:
Can't wait to see a trailer, because the plot synopsis does nothing for me.
Well I didn't look at the poster for more than half a second.
So..........SHUT IT! Plus I don't usually expect ST to sink to such cliche things.
-
https://insidetv.ew.com/2012/12/04/patrick-stewart-star-trek-tng-measure-of-a-man/?hpt=hp_t3
-
Ah, that's right. Each ship had different shaped communicators. A cool idea, but realistically didn't make a lot of sense.
Did they? I know that in TOS they all had different uniform insignia, but they didn't become combadges until TNG, and I thought they were all the same at that point.
-
Ah, that's right. Each ship had different shaped communicators. A cool idea, but realistically didn't make a lot of sense.
Did they? I know that in TOS they all had different uniform insignia, but they didn't become combadges until TNG, and I thought they were all the same at that point.
Yea, they weren't combadges. But each crews insignia represented their ship. I honestly can't even remember what the original Starfleet logo was.
-
Argh, wrong again. Yeah, the pins they wore on their shirts were unique to the ship they were on, but they weren't communicators in TOS.
(https://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/children/kirk_ufp_flag.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OK-XeIpZd50/TxPBJmtnHXI/AAAAAAAADdE/fpmYAwG2vkI/s300/ufp.jpg)
-
I love when they acknowledge that in DS9. Sisko tries to tap the insignia in "Trials and Tribble-ations" until he remembers he has to go old-school.
-
"INTO DARKNESS" TRAILER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=diP-o_JxysA
-
Just came to post that.
I tell you, if this movie is not based on Where No Man Has Gone Before, they sure did a good job of coincidentally casting someone who's the spitting image of the chick from TOS, complete with identical hairstyle.
And based on that, I'm really not excited about this. Hopefully it's a lot better than the episode it's based on.
-
You could have said the same thing about Space Seed.
" Oh it's not going to be a great movie because it's based on the episode Space Seed. "
Not much happened in that episode wither but we got the best movie out of it.
-
You could have said the same thing about Space Seed.
" Oh it's not going to be a great movie because it's based on the episode Space Seed. "
Not much happened in that episode wither but we got the best movie out of it.
This is more of a "remake" (for lack of a better term) of an episode than a sequel though, so there's a big difference. And I thought Space Seed was an excellent episode to begin with. One of TOS's finest. The way Montalban played off the characters made it such a compelling episode, and he had the presence and chemistry to carry a movie.
But the plot of WNMHGB is just so dull and cliche, so hopefully they're just taking the basic characters and doing something completely new with it, although I get the feeling it's just going to be the same old captain vs big powerful bad guy with piss-weak motivation, rather than something truly Trek.
-
Trailer looked good. Couldn't possibly care less what the episode is based on. I'll see the flick and judge it on its own merits.
-
Trailer looked good. Couldn't possibly care less what the episode is based on. I'll see the flick and judge it on its own merits.
This.
-
Trailer looked good. Couldn't possibly care less what the episode is based on. I'll see the flick and judge it on its own merits.
This.
Yep. I have never ever been a Star Trek fan. Never even watched the show once, not for a second. But I absolutely love the movie (does that mean I'm a piece of shit? Cause Star Trek fans seem to hate that. Verily. :laugh:). So I'm pretty excited about this one. It's nice to see discussion on it by people who were into the series though so I can get some back-story and general information on the lore. It looks awesomely awesome.
-
Cool trailer, can't wait to see the movie.
-
Looks good enough to see in the theater.
-
Yea, the trailer looks badass.
-
I do love me some spaceship crashes - I love that scene in Prometheus with the falling Juggernaut.
So to see Enterprise crashing into the ocean will be phenomenal on the big screen I think !
-
Looked.......meh. I mean it looked like the Prometheus trailer.
There was virtually nothing "Trek" about that in the slightest bit.
But again, that's what they're going for. They're making Star Trek for non Star Trek fans.
-
Yeah, I got the same vibe.
-
And it worked. The last film is the biggest Trek film of all time by some distance.
-
And it worked. The last film is the biggest Trek film of all time by some distance.
I just don't think that's an indicator of substance though.
I just finished watching the series Extras, seen it? Well one of the main plots in the 2nd season onward is that Andy, the main character lands his own sitcom after years of trying to become an actor. The studios make him wash the show down so that it would reach the biggest audiences ever. And it worked, he ended up doing what he considered the worst piece of crap show ever made. And it was made into complete crap for the sole purpose of reaching as many viewers as humanly possible.
So in the end, he took an idea that had substance and merit and turned into a lowest common denominator show that tons of people liked, but that no one really respected in the end.
Just a thought.
-
I'd like to post one more thought here.
ST has changed directions and styles with almost every different series. I was thinking about that, why was I so cool with all of those changes but not this latest change, and I think I figured it out. ST TOS was a huge innovator in its genre when it aired. When TNG came on, it was VERY different from TOS but it still created its own style and led the way. When DS9 became defined it helped create and cement the dark brooding sci-fi that hadn't really be on TV before. etc etc. Now the new movies are drastically different style as well, however I feel that in this case it's just them chasing current trends and trying to be modern rather than doing what the other shows did and innovating and creating something new.
That make sense?
It was like when Dream Theater started trying to sound like all the other modern metal bands. It wasn't that they changed, it's that they stopped creating something new and instead just tried to fit in to what was already popular.
-
To be honest, when the newer Bond came out it was a shot in the arm, they made it dark, realistic. I loved it and it gave a huge boost to the franchise. Same could be said for Star Trek. Sales were stalling and with time and tinkering with the style, it has made Star trek relevant again.
-
Honestly king I kind of feel like my last two posts dealt with what you just said.
-
Honestly king I kind of feel like my last two posts dealt with what you just said.
A little bit yes indeed. I think as a franchise it was stalling even though I loves the TV output the Next Generation movies after First Contact weres ub par and for some reason the TV show, "Enterprise" wasn't doing well either. I loved that show.
Not having any output for a few years and stylisticly changing it has done wonders for the Franchise but not for the old fans. I'm just glad it's back. Now can we have a new TV series please?!
-
I just don't think popularity is worth making movies that are barely Star Trek. I mean you may as well cast mylie Cyrus and Justin Bieber in these movies. They'll make four times the money and get way more fans if that's the only thing that matters.
What do I want? A well written script with good strong characters. But I doubt I'll be getting that. Instead I'll get tons of action and explosions and illogical plots. All for the sake of being cool and getting more fans.
-
By the way, I totally agree that a big change was necessary. I just don't think making Star Trek for Star Wars fans was the right change.
-
I get you. They took out the soul and made it a big action flick. It didn't blother me like others. I still haven't seen the trailer. Can't see Youtube at work dammit.
-
I get you. They took out the soul and made it a big action flick. It didn't blother me like others. I still haven't seen the trailer. Can't see Youtube at work dammit.
Did you see the Prometheus trailer? Just imagine that with a bad guy talking on top of it.
-
I keep saying this but i'v been a massive Trek fan since I was about 5 and i'm 34 now.
I totally loved JJ's 2009 film and I can't wait for Into Darkness.
I go to the cinema primarily for the spectacle and to be entertained.
I go see films like Inception for well thought out stories and characters.
I go see films like Prometheus and Star Trek for entertaining space action and thrills and the big screen / sound experience.
:)
-
I keep saying this but i'v been a massive Trek fan since I was about 5 and i'm 43 now.
I totally loved JJ's 2009 film and I can't wait for Into Darkness.
I go to the cinema primarily for the spectacle and to be entertained.
I go see films like Inception for well thought out stories and characters.
I go see films like Prometheus and Star Trek for entertaining space action and thrills and the big screen / sound experience.
:)
FTFM
-
I disagree with my esteemed colleague about WNMHGB. Excellent episode. Would have been a fine one to remake.
This looks like a genuine piece of shit, though. I watched X-Men last night, and that's what this looks like*. As some of us have been saying all along, and the current posts seem to reflect, they're making Star Trek for non-Trek fans now and telling those of us who actually liked the ST concept to fuck off. Honestly, I don't even have any desire to download this thing and spend 100 minutes watching it.
*even the clothes they're wearing look like movie X-Men uniforms.
-
Well of course they're going to have a flashy trailer; they figure they already have the Star Trek fanbase reeled in. What else are they going to do? Show a bunch of people standing around being diplomatic?
-
You know what's a bummer? Take The Wrath Of Khan, and consider how much it would cost to film the movie these days. It cost $11 million back in the day, and I would think a lot of that was special effects. All that stuff would be dirt-cheap these days to do if you scaled back on the flashiness.
So, the bummer is that somebody like Paramount of course wants to cash in big; shooting a more modest film that is directed at Star Trek fans, doesn't cut it.
-
It seems like a lot of people who don't like the new movie talk like Abrams made a bad movie on purpose. I'm pretty sure he made what he believed was a good story.
-
I love it.
-
It seems like a lot of people who don't like the new movie talk like Abrams made a bad movie on purpose. I'm pretty sure he made what he believed was a good storymovie.
Not everyone likely thinks a good story is necessary for a good movie. Fantasia proves stylism and flash can carry a movie. It certainly grossed a lot long term and has many, many adorers.
-
Khan would bore the bejezus out of the masses. They wouldn't make it nowadays, and if they did, they'd skip the entire Kirk midlife crisis and just blow more shit up.
A. Ceti A 6 explodes spectacularly and causes the survey ship that just happened to be there to crash spectacularly all over CA5.
B. Khan captures the rescue ship that comes to rescue them.
C. Khan attacks a planet to get the federation's attention with spectacular results; issues ultimatum for Kirk to come and face him.
D. SFC sends a task force to deal with Khan and he destroys them all spectacularly.
E. Kirk defies orders to go and face his nemesis.
F. Khan kicks Kirks ass spectacularly.
G. Khan kidnaps one of Kirk's ex-girlfriends to force a rematch.
H. McCoy offers encouragement, and Kirk is revitalized by Rocky-style theme music.
I. Kirk gets his ass kicked spectacularly again, but remembers the one weakness that was eluded to during the opening sequence and destroys Khan's ship.
J. Khan displays astonishment as the last torpedo hits.
K. Credits
Sound about right?
-
It seems like a lot of people who don't like the new movie talk like Abrams made a bad movie on purpose. I'm pretty sure he made what he believed was a good storymovie.
Not everyone likely thinks a good story is necessary for a good movie. Fantasia proves stylism and flash can carry a movie. It certainly grossed a lot long term and has many, many adorers.
Fantasia isn't really a movie though. I mean yeah...it's technically a movie, but it's more like Disney's detour into "art film"...and that film *IS* a breathtaking piece of art. Fantasia and Fantasia 2000 are *EASILY* my all time favorite Disney films.
-
I don't mean to say Star Trek is aiming THAT far with these movies, but story really doesn't have to be the primary focus for some people to think a movie is great.
-
By that logic, transformers is the greatest trilogy ever.
-
The thing is, even as an old school ST fan...and someone who is fairly critical of shallow movies...I honestly don't see the two dimensional thinking that the critics are seeing.
Why is *EVERYTHING* measured against Khan? Insurrection is personally my all time favorite Star Trek film. That film, to me was ALL heart and a GREAT story...but everyone complained that there was "no action"... (why they didn't give Frakes one more shot after his success with First Contact is completely beyond me....he would have made Nemesis a billion times better all by himself)
And while JJ's reboot is certainly not Inception or The Matrix...what were you expecting? Every time I go to see a Star Trek film, I expect a light but impelling story with some great action. If I want deeper film, I'll go watch a deeper film. Khan is NOT a deep film....and the more you try to remake it, the more you will fail. JJ actually had the balls to completely free up an entire universe for himself by completely destroying the existing "canon"....I thought it was a brilliant move. And the first 10 minutes contained more heart than any moment in any Star Trek film ever...even IMO, surpassing Spock's death in Khan....but only by a hair.
-
If all you want from Star Trek is a light fun action story then there are no problems for you at all. If you want good characters, a good story and good social commentary then you probably won't like the reboot. I'm not measuring anything against Khan. I'm just saying I want a good movie beyond mindless spectacles.
-
If all you want from Star Trek is a light fun action story then there are no problems for you at all. If you want good characters, a good story and good social commentary then you probably won't like the reboot. I'm not measuring anything against Khan. I'm just saying I want a good movie beyond mindless spectacles.
But that would be "Skyline" territory. If the reboot were a "mindless spectacle" (like Skyline, or Battleship or any other mindless action fodder Hollywood serves up) I would hate it. But it's not...so I don't. There *IS* a story...there IS character development. Not to the extent of some of the other classics of the genre...but enough to live up to the Star Trek legacy...which some people seem to think hangs on 2 or 3 films out of 11. I disagree. I love very nearly all of them. (Nemesis is really the only ST movie I absolutely despised...what a freakin MESS!)
-
I disagree. The reboots character development was completely shallow and illogical. Beond bones, I didn't even care about any of th characters at all. And just because its better than a steamer like battleship doesn't make it good. There's a difference between a fun film aimed for the masses and a good film. Good films become classics. St 2009 won't.
-
I disagree. The reboots character development was completely shallow and illogical. Beond bones, I didn't even care about any of th characters at all. And just because its better than a steamer like battleship doesn't make it good. There's a difference between a fun film aimed for the masses and a good film. Good films become classics. St 2009 won't.
IMO, two very good reasons why the reboot deserves a bit of leeway for going just a tad light on character development for the first film.
1) Even though the timeline has split, and we are now in an alternate reality, we essentially know these characters already. Given that we are already familiar with the people, I think a few "gimmies" are in order.
2) The movie did establish some very core basics of these new characters...enough of a foundation that can be built upon and developed over the course of three films. And that is key. Unlike most sci-fi films, we pretty much had a definite green light for three movies before the reboot even opened in theaters. I believe that JJ wanted to start with the basics and develop the characters over three films...since he knew he had three films from the word go.
-
Your second point is interesting because Abrams mentioned in an interview that even in the sequel the Enterprise crew is still not the well-oiled machine they are in TOS.
-
I said the development was shallow and illogical. That can't be fixed with more films. Very little of what they did in the last movie made any sense beyond "I bet audiences will find that cool". I didn't say there was no development as there was. It was just stupid and generally completely out of line with what we already know about the characters.
-
I think they took a bit of artistic licence due to all the characters now having different backstory to TOS.
Not only did the alternate timeline enable them to come up with their own stories but they could free up the characters a bit more.
-
I think they took a bit of artistic licence due to all the characters now having different backstory to TOS.
Not only did the alternate timeline enable them to come up with their won stories but they could free up the characters a bit more.
While all of this is true, it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Its like you guys are reading my posts and only seeing "change is bad grrr" or something.
-
Maybe I'm just not cynical enough, but I loved all the characters.
-
I think they took a bit of artistic licence due to all the characters now having different backstory to TOS.
Not only did the alternate timeline enable them to come up with their own stories but they could free up the characters a bit more.
Absolutely...I felt the same way. In some ways, it just adds to the genius of the film. Because while they are old characters, they are in completely different upbringings and circumstances. It was actually SMART not to hit us with everything all at once. This was a perfect "toe in the water" film. It establishes that these are the same people in the different timeline....shows us some similarities, and some differences (without jarring us with too much too quick) and then gives us three years to "digest" this new development.
The more I think about it, the more I think JJ did a FANTASTIC job.
-
Absolutely. I was welling up in the cinema.
Not just because it was so EPICZ OMGZ. But because It was a truly amazingly emotional opening sequence.
The most fun emotional experience watching a Star Trek movie since Generations.
Which I also loved.
-
The whole "BRAAAAAAH.... BRAAAAAAAAH..... BRAAAAAAH" thing in trailers is getting a little tiresome, IMO.
-
Man, no shit. But this isn't nearly as aggravating as the annoying shit that played in the Prometheus trailers...a grating sound that I'm glad wasn't even in the movie.
-
The whole "BRAAAAAAH.... BRAAAAAAAAH..... BRAAAAAAH" thing in trailers is getting a little tiresome, IMO.
Agreed. Bear in mind the original movie also set the trend for lens flares and shaky cam.
-
I've been watching Star Trek since, probably, before most of the people commenting here were born. My mom sat my down in front of the TV when the original series first hit syndication and said "you'll like this." For my 8th birthday I received two models of ships from the series, the Enterprise and a Klingon ship. I played with those Captain Kirk and Spock 12 inch dolls from Mego that had ALL had the right arm become permanently dislocated. By the time I was twelve, I owned a stack of the books by James Blish that adapted episodes. I saw all six of the original series movies in the theater. I am a Star Trek fan beyond compare.
And when I took my mom to see Star Trek in 2009 as a Mother's Day present, to pay her back for starting a lifetime of love for science fiction, you know what?
We both LOVED it.
The idea that the movie fails to meet some sort of standard that Star Trek set for deep, important, socially conscious storytelling? What fucking Star Trek are you watching? Star Trek's always been light entertainment, space opera on the small screen. It didn't even match the standards for sci-fi social commentary set by The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits-it was a step above Lost In Space for entertainment value. None of the Trek movies are notable for their stories, which are pretty by the numbers sci-fi, or their character development. Social commentary in the Trek movies and original series is driven home with the subtlety of a ball peen hammer to the skull. The 2009 reboot achieves more emotion in its opening 10 minutes than any one of the original six movies does by themselves, and ALL of the NG movies combined. Could it be deeper, more meaningful, less of a big budget blockbuster? Sure.
It'd be the first Trek movie to achieve that, then.
-
:clap:
Love it.
-
I've been watching Star Trek since, probably, before most of the people commenting here were born. My mom sat my down in front of the TV when the original series first hit syndication and said "you'll like this." For my 8th birthday I received two models of ships from the series, the Enterprise and a Klingon ship. I played with those Captain Kirk and Spock 12 inch dolls from Mego that had ALL had the right arm become permanently dislocated. By the time I was twelve, I owned a stack of the books by James Blish that adapted episodes. I saw all six of the original series movies in the theater. I am a Star Trek fan beyond compare.
And when I took my mom to see Star Trek in 2009 as a Mother's Day present, to pay her back for starting a lifetime of love for science fiction, you know what?
We both LOVED it.
The idea that the movie fails to meet some sort of standard that Star Trek set for deep, important, socially conscious storytelling? What fucking Star Trek are you watching? Star Trek's always been light entertainment, space opera on the small screen. It didn't even match the standards for sci-fi social commentary set by The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits-it was a step above Lost In Space for entertainment value. None of the Trek movies are notable for their stories, which are pretty by the numbers sci-fi, or their character development. Social commentary in the Trek movies and original series is driven home with the subtlety of a ball peen hammer to the skull. The 2009 reboot achieves more emotion in its opening 10 minutes than any one of the original six movies does by themselves, and ALL of the NG movies combined. Could it be deeper, more meaningful, less of a big budget blockbuster? Sure.
It'd be the first Trek movie to achieve that, then.
:hefdaddy :heart :metal
-
:clap:
Love it.
Yes indeedy.
:tup :tup
Good to know not all Trek fans shit all over the movie.
Two-second edit: I realize this may look like I'm taking a jab at Adami because he doesn't like it, which I am not; apologies if it looks that way. I say this because nearly every single friend I have (which, okay, isn't a lot, but still) is a massively derranged Trek fan, and some of them are twice my age (fathers of friends, still consider them friends...if anyone wondered why I have friends twice my age...) They're always telling me how I need to go back and watch the older series to truly appreciate it and become a real fan. I tried. I fucking hated them. Still really like the movie. So it's nice to see there's someone with a foot on both sides who doesn't berate any newcomers that actually like it and/or rants on and on and on about its failure. Which they do to me. A lot.
-
So who else has been watching the Star Trek Into Darkness trailer all day ? :biggrin:
-
Jaq. Being a big fan of Star Trek clearly doesn't mean you see it or like it on some grater level than us lonely fans who didn't like the reboot. You consider Star Trek nothing more than light fluff set in space? Clearly that's where we have a difference. It's all good. I mean I'm honestly glad you guys loved the reboot so much. I am Well aware that in today's world it is either this Star Trek or no Star Trek at all. Unfortunately today's audiences will not accept any form of Star Trek other than what you were seeing on the screen now. My only hope is that the new fans of this re-boot will eventually try to discover earlier Star Trek and find the true heart of it all.
-
:clap:
Love it.
:tup :tup
Good to know not all Trek fans shit all over the movie.
Two-second edit: I realize this may look like I'm taking a jab at Adami because he doesn't like it, which I am not; apologies if it looks that way. I say this because nearly every single friend I have (which, okay, isn't a lot, but still) is a massively derranged Trek fan, and some of them are twice my age (fathers of friends, still consider them friends...if anyone wondered why I have friends twice my age...) They're always telling me how I need to go back and watch the older series to truly appreciate it and become a real fan. I tried. I fucking hated them. Still really like the movie. So it's nice to see there's someone with a foot on both sides who doesn't berate any newcomers that actually like it and/or rants on and on and on about its failure. Which they do to me. A lot.
Ya - i've been a Trek fan for almost 30 years and I love the TOS movies - the TNG movies to a lesser extent but JJ's movie blew me away.
-
Okay, so I've decided that this argument will go nowhere if it is just the following posts over and over
My group: The movie isn't really a trek film, it wasn't logical or deep and it wasn't well made
Other group: The movie had to change because it needed to stay relevant and IT WAS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So how about we get into some specifics eh?
First off, obviously none of this is personal. Koto you're a cool guy. Jammindude, you know I luv ya bro. Jaq....well I don't know you but your name sounds French so I'm afraid I have to hate you on principle, sorry brah.
So, first this might be a long post (dunno yet, so if it is I expect a few of you to not read it). So first I'd like to point out that my disliking of the movie isn't really just about it not being a Trek film. I thought that even if this was a brand new Sci-fi movie that wasn't Trek at all, that it wouldn't have been very good. But how about we start with the positive eh? Like giving candy to a baby before you kill it.
Here's what I really liked about the movie, so you guys don't have to bring it up to convince me it's good.
- The entire opening sequence with Thor saving baby Kirk's life. It was really well written/made etc and I loved every minute of it (well minus the engineering room but we'll get to that later).
- I liked Bones a whole lot. Sure some people thought he was a caricature but I loved it and couldn't get enough of him.
- Despite being a very different character, I mostly liked Kirk. He was the only one (yes really) who's new personality was explained by the time line change, so I was perfectly cool with that and Pine brought in an awesome sense of personality that made Kirk a new character but a good one.
- I really liked Captain Pike. I have no complaints about anything about this guy at all, he was expertly done. I was really happy to see him cast in the new movie.
- It was cool seeing Vulcan be destroyed, a very ballsy movie that I have to respect (despite the details around the execution).
- Plenty of hot chicks.
- The whole "infected me with a balloon virus" or whatever thing between Kirk and Bones was funny, and I found it entertaining in a classic Star Trek way. I mean I can see that happening in a ST movie.
Okay, now here's what I didn't like (notice I won't include anything here about it being a Star Trek movie, just a movie as itself)
- The shakey cam and lens flairs were WAY over done. Was it a huge problem? Nah, just not fun.
- Aside from Kirk, Bones and Pike, I really didn't like any of the crew. Here's why.
- Sulu was just pointless. Sure he was pointless in the original, but they really could have changed that.
- Ditto about Chekov. I'm a big fan of Anton Yelchin, but the character was essentially a spoof of Chekov....who was also pointless.
- Uhura was just an annoying girl. The love thing with Spock made NO sense what so ever. They showed no reason for these people to like each other, we were just told that they did and were expected to believe it.
- Scotty was just horrible. I love Simon Pegg but I think he was only cast because he is Simon Pegg. He ruined a otherwise fine character and turned him into a 1 dimensional comic relief.
- Spock was just a very emotional condescending douche bag who I couldn't stand at all.
- The Engineering room was a beer plant. Nuff said, it was horrible and distracting. No idea what was wrong with the original idea of the engineering room.
Now on to the plot.
Nero decides to destroy Vulcan and Earth in the past because a star exploded? His motivation was just completely illogical and horrible. I couldn't relate to him in the least.
So Spock abandons Kirk on an ice planet because he talked too much? I'm sorry but that was HORRIBLE writing. There's just no defending that move at all, other than "Well we needed Kirk to meet Old Spock and who cares how we did it".
Then when Vulcan gets sucked into a black hole and the nearby moon isn't affected at all? No sense.
The stupid ice monster chasing Kirk that gets scared off by a torch? Come on, really? It was just bad writing.
That's all I'm writing now, but the ending was terrible too.
-
Also keep in mind there's probably a bit more I like/don't like about the movie, but I haven't seen it in a while and that's all based off memory.
-
Gezuz... Picking out minor problems is the basis for your dislike? I can't remember your stance on TDKR, but that must've been a turd too in your eyes?
Decent debate, but I'm not seeing as much distaste for it as here is appreciation. We're not talking academy award caliber movies here. They were always straight up sic-fi - a 'good enough' story and acting, with action and fx. If you're expecting more, you're in the wrong theatre.
-
Well thanks for completely disregarding my post and implying I am terrible at enjoying things.
Very kind and helpful.
Listen, if you see ST as just enjoyable action movies....then for the love of god, don't join in on my discussion because I'm clearly assuming it is MORE than that. If you want to see ST as light fluff, then by all means do so and don't let my "minor problems" bother you, just ignore me.
-
I actually like Star Trek XI a lot as a light scifi movie, but I completely agree with Adami about the huge problems with the plot and the characters.
The bad guy and his actions made almost no sense at all. Jettisoning Kirk to an ice planet which coincidentally happened to have Spock on it made no sense. Kirk being handed everything on a silver platter despite being a complete dick made no sense. Most of the characters were nothing but caricatures.
A lot of the deleted scenes would have helped smooth over the plot to some degree. The car stealing scene could have had some real context and showed why new Kirk grew up to be rebellious against authority, but instead they preferred to take it out of context and just make him a jerk. The deleted scenes could have helped partially explain why Nero was a completely unstable nutbar doing things that made no sense, but instead they considered that redundant to the plot of making the big bad guy blow shit up for 2 hours.
I enjoyed Trek XI (enough to rewatch it many times), but there's a lot of improvement to be made imo. I was also hoping they'd break the mold of "captain vs angry bad guy trying to take out the captain and the Federation for flimsy reasons", and make something with a bit more depth.
-
Adami... I didn't say you were terrible at enjoying things, or disregard your post. I just find it to be somewhat ironic you pick out all of these minor plot holes (and come on... what non-drama movie doesn't have plot holes), but don't see TDKR in the same light (and coincidentally re-posted your thoughts about TDKR last night).
Look, it's not a shot at you, but I just don't understand why people can't just take things as they are for entertainment's sake. For instance, I enjoyed Battleship ... for what it was. It was an absolutely terrible movie (plot, character and acting wise), but I went in expecting that, and loved it for all the eye-candy.
I don't expect my action/sci-fi movies to be Gladiator-like... but when that happens, it's an added bonus.
-
I've been watching Star Trek since, probably, before most of the people commenting here were born. My mom sat my down in front of the TV when the original series first hit syndication and said "you'll like this." For my 8th birthday I received two models of ships from the series, the Enterprise and a Klingon ship. I played with those Captain Kirk and Spock 12 inch dolls from Mego that had ALL had the right arm become permanently dislocated. By the time I was twelve, I owned a stack of the books by James Blish that adapted episodes. I saw all six of the original series movies in the theater. I am a Star Trek fan beyond compare.
And when I took my mom to see Star Trek in 2009 as a Mother's Day present, to pay her back for starting a lifetime of love for science fiction, you know what?
We both LOVED it.
The idea that the movie fails to meet some sort of standard that Star Trek set for deep, important, socially conscious storytelling? What fucking Star Trek are you watching? Star Trek's always been light entertainment, space opera on the small screen. It didn't even match the standards for sci-fi social commentary set by The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits-it was a step above Lost In Space for entertainment value. None of the Trek movies are notable for their stories, which are pretty by the numbers sci-fi, or their character development. Social commentary in the Trek movies and original series is driven home with the subtlety of a ball peen hammer to the skull. The 2009 reboot achieves more emotion in its opening 10 minutes than any one of the original six movies does by themselves, and ALL of the NG movies combined. Could it be deeper, more meaningful, less of a big budget blockbuster? Sure.
It'd be the first Trek movie to achieve that, then.
I'm not going to take the time to provide rebuttal as well as Adami did, but just let me say I've been watching Trek for as long as you and you are 100% off-base in both your understanding of the original show, and your stereotyping of the subset of fans who actually want a decent STAR TREK movie as opposed to a LOUD AWESOME COOL space movie.
-
I've been watching Star Trek since, probably, before most of the people commenting here were born. My mom sat my down in front of the TV when the original series first hit syndication and said "you'll like this." For my 8th birthday I received two models of ships from the series, the Enterprise and a Klingon ship. I played with those Captain Kirk and Spock 12 inch dolls from Mego that had ALL had the right arm become permanently dislocated. By the time I was twelve, I owned a stack of the books by James Blish that adapted episodes. I saw all six of the original series movies in the theater. I am a Star Trek fan beyond compare.
And when I took my mom to see Star Trek in 2009 as a Mother's Day present, to pay her back for starting a lifetime of love for science fiction, you know what?
We both LOVED it.
The idea that the movie fails to meet some sort of standard that Star Trek set for deep, important, socially conscious storytelling? What fucking Star Trek are you watching? Star Trek's always been light entertainment, space opera on the small screen. It didn't even match the standards for sci-fi social commentary set by The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits-it was a step above Lost In Space for entertainment value. None of the Trek movies are notable for their stories, which are pretty by the numbers sci-fi, or their character development. Social commentary in the Trek movies and original series is driven home with the subtlety of a ball peen hammer to the skull. The 2009 reboot achieves more emotion in its opening 10 minutes than any one of the original six movies does by themselves, and ALL of the NG movies combined. Could it be deeper, more meaningful, less of a big budget blockbuster? Sure.
It'd be the first Trek movie to achieve that, then.
I'm not going to take the time to provide rebuttal as well as Adami did, but just let me say I've been watching Trek for as long as you and you are 100% off-base in both your understanding of the original show, and your stereotyping of the subset of fans who actually want a decent STAR TREK movie as opposed to a LOUD AWESOME COOL space movie.
This can't be a serious statement...
-
Well I'm done with this argument. I put quite a bit of time and effort into my post to try to give this argument some substance. But if the only reply I'm going to get is "lol you think these movies are deep? it's not godfather, it's space fluff" then there's clearly no point in putting in any effort.
When we start discussing other things about ST, let me know.
-
The 2009 reboot achieves more emotion in its opening 10 minutes than any one of the original six movies does by themselves, and ALL of the NG movies combined.
Man, I couldn't agree more with that. I really loved that opening sequence and I thought the reboot was awesome.
-
Nothing tops Spock's death, especially the death of a character we didn't know at all. Yes the circumstances of his death were emotional, but more in the "OMG how can we introduce this stuff in the most cliched melodramatic way possible?" way.
-
I have to agree that the opening scene in the reboot was topping any emotional drama of the preceding movies.
-
I disagree with my esteemed colleague about WNMHGB. Excellent episode. Would have been a fine one to remake.
This looks like a genuine piece of shit, though. I watched X-Men last night, and that's what this looks like*. As some of us have been saying all along, and the current posts seem to reflect, they're making Star Trek for non-Trek fans now and telling those of us who actually liked the ST concept to fuck off. Honestly, I don't even have any desire to download this thing and spend 100 minutes watching it.
*even the clothes they're wearing look like movie X-Men uniforms.
X-men is actually a great example of a movie that got most of the back stories/characters wrong, but that was still a great movie (to me anyway) in its own right.
-
Nothing tops Spock's death, especially the death of a character we didn't know at all. Yes the circumstances of his death were emotional, but more in the "OMG how can we introduce this stuff in the most cliched melodramatic way possible?" way.
Spock's death was a bit anticlimactic for me for a couple of reasons. First, it was abundantly obvious that they were going to bring him back in subsequent movies, but more importantly, William Shatner's "acting" is, well, bad :jets:
-
Adami, I just want to clarify that I think we're oscillating between extremes here...and that's NOT what I'm shooting for.
The reason why I keep trying to address this is because if you think I only treat Star Trek as "space fluff", then I'm not communicating properly.
Let's inject some BALANCE here. I believe I implied in my first post that it WASN'T "space fluff"...and I brought up examples of "popcorn movies" that can be fun in their own right for what they are (like the Transformers trilogy for instance) and how I *DO*, in fact, place Star Trek as being far above such bottom feeding fodder.
But there are infinite points of the compass between North and South....between The Matrix and Battleship. I have always considered Star Trek to be perfect for what it was...always hovering in perfect balance between the too extremes. Good characters and stories without getting *OVERLY* philosophical, and a decent amount of action without sacrificing what the story is really about. Sometimes it works better than others, but (with the exception of Nemesis IMO) it never drifted too far to either extreme. It was never "space fluff" but it was also never "the be all and end all of sci-fi movies".... I'm feeling like you think that just because I don't agree with you, you're concluding that I'm in the camp of the opposite stance....that is not the case.
-
In case anyone's interested here's the Japanese version of the trailer, with a few extra snippets that pretty much make it look like more of a Khan rip off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BrHlQUXFzfw
Of course I have feeling those are misdirected snippets that aren't really Khan like but are edited to make us think it is so we're more likely to see it.
-
Where is Genesis, anyways? Shouldn't it be about ready to devour planets?
edit: Oh, I suppose that would be much further down the road since this is more inline with the tv show, right?
-
Where is Genesis, anyways? Shouldn't it be about ready to devour planets?
edit: Oh, I suppose that would be much further down the road since this is more inline with the tv show, right?
These movies take place prior to the events of the TV show. The original cast movies took place well after the events of the tv show.
-
Well, yes, it's sort of obvious the TOS movies are after the tv series. ...just look at Scotty.
How long was Kirk captain before the start of TOS? These movies would be prior to or after The Cage?
-
How long was Kirk captain before the start of TOS? These movies would be prior to or after The Cage?
All of these movies (or at the very least the first one) take place before The Cage. In the original timeline, Kirk didn't become a captain straight out of school.
-
Kirk didn't become captain in The Cage, either, though. Do we even know where he was during The Cage?
-
Kirk didn't become captain in The Cage, either, though. Do we even know where he was during The Cage?
Yes we do. He was back on earth banging Pike's wife and sister in a three way.
-
Good for him.
Wouldn't ST09 have to be after The Cage, though? Spock was the only one that was on the crew in The Cage, but in ST2009 the whole TOS gang was becoming part of the crew, not just Kirk..
-
Good for him.
Wouldn't ST09 have to be after The Cage, though? Spock was the only one that was on the crew in The Cage, but in ST2009 the rest were becoming part of the crew, not just Kirk..
New timeline blah blah blah, anything illogical is automatically fine now.
Essentially The Cage just never happened now. Plus it didn't seem that Spock was assigned to the Enterprise full time yet because he was still working at Starfleet Academy during the movie.
-
Maybe he was on a leave. He was first officer in ST2009, but in The Cage, Nurse Chapel was. ...or was it Lwaxania Troi?
-
Maybe he was on a leave. He was first officer in ST2009, but in The Cage, Nurse Chapel was. ...or was it Lwaxania Troi?
I mean you can look at it however you want.
According to the timeline on Wiki, the 2009 movie takes place four years after The Cage. But since it's an alternate timeline, it's not known if the events of The Cage ever happened.
-
Spock's death was a bit anticlimactic for me for a couple of reasons. First, it was abundantly obvious that they were going to bring him back in subsequent movies, but more importantly, William Shatner's "acting" is, well, bad :jets:
Not sure if you are old enough, but were you aware of the ‘rumors’ surrounding Spock’s upcoming death in ST2? If so, that would make it incredibly anti-climactic. It was written as a final, done-deal by Nick Meyer, but once they saw the potential for more move revenue, they added in the ‘Remember’ the final scene on Genesis, and Spock’s “prologue” at the end, over the objections of Meyer.
And Shatner’s acting is very solid, IF he is being directly appropriately. He is excellent in those final scenes. Compare him in ST2 and ST6 to ST:TMP and ST5.
-
The fact that something is leaked has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the scene. It was great for what it was, probably most audiences were NOT aware Spock was coming back.
-
While I think that adaptations for larger audiences (as movies, especially blockbusters, are not a fractured market like TV is) will inevitably make things broader and less niche (not that this is always a bad thing; for example Lord of the Rings), it is still pretty disappointing to see what appears to be a pseudo-remake of The Dark Knight being released under the brand name of Star Trek.
(I would say that Skyfall was similarly disappointing).
-
While I think that adaptations for larger audiences (as movies, especially blockbusters, are not a fractured market like TV is) will inevitably make things broader and less niche (not that this is always a bad thing; for example Lord of the Rings), it is still pretty disappointing to see what appears to be a pseudo-remake of The Dark Knight being released under the brand name of Star Trek.
(I would say that Skyfall was similarly disappointing).
I assume you're referring to the Star Trek Into Darkness?
-
While I think that adaptations for larger audiences (as movies, especially blockbusters, are not a fractured market like TV is) will inevitably make things broader and less niche (not that this is always a bad thing; for example Lord of the Rings), it is still pretty disappointing to see what appears to be a pseudo-remake of The Dark Knight being released under the brand name of Star Trek.
(I would say that Skyfall was similarly disappointing).
I assume you're referring to the Star Trek Into Darkness?
Yeah.
-
During the events of The Cage, Kirk would have been at best an ensign on the Farragut, per Obsession.
I agree with pretty much everything Adami said in his post that nobody read. I didn't mind Spock so much, though.
The first 12 minutes of 2009 didn't do anything for me for two reasons. First, it just seemed cliche and formulaic. Second, the big battle (like every other battle) was just too chaotic to make any sense. That relates to the first part, sense they clearly didn't give a shit about the details, only putting in the standard ingredients. That said, the guy who was George Kirk sold it pretty well. Still, pretty standard fare.
The thing that troubles me he most about it is that it's and action flick, rather than sci-fi. Tweaking the concept is fine, but changing the entire genre to sell more popcorn is just lame. Seems to be the state of Hollywood now, though. Explosions and chases make everything better. If they remade The Wizard of Oz, all of those flying monkeys would have missile launchers and flame throwers.
-
If they remade The Wizard of Oz, all of those flying monkeys would have missile launchers and flame throwers.
(https://www.geekzenith.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpeg)
-
If they remade The Wizard of Oz, all of those flying monkeys would have missile launchers and flame throwers.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1623205/
:biggrin:
-
If they remade The Wizard of Oz, all of those flying monkeys would have missile launchers and flame throwers.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1623205/
:biggrin:
PWNED!!!
(havn't said that in awhile....I suppose there's a reason for that. BTW...I love you both, I just felt like I was Kelso watching Foreman get an ultimate burn from Hyde...had to acknowledge the awesome burn.)
I'm such a :loser:
-
ha
I'm Hyde
:hat
-
ha
I'm Hyde
:hat
"They have a car that runs on WATER, MAN!!!" :hat
-
So I was pretty convinced it wasn't Khan but a whole new villain, but one of my friends brought up that it could be Gary Mitchell, and his "death" could be shown in the first 15 minutes or so, like Papa Kirk's was in ST2009. Then I saw that Japanese trailer and it wasn't the classic Spock/Kirk hands against the glass thing that caught my attention, but the line about doing anything for your family. That makes me think its a Khan going after Kirk for the death of his wife. Again.
I'm really more excited to see Benedict Cumberbatch more than anything else. There's word that this will actually develop Kirk's character into more of the TOS Kirk, which is exciting as well.
-
So I was pretty convinced it wasn't Khan but a whole new villain, but one of my friends brought up that it could be Gary Mitchell, and his "death" could be shown in the first 15 minutes or so, like Papa Kirk's was in ST2009. Then I saw that Japanese trailer and it wasn't the classic Spock/Kirk hands against the glass thing that caught my attention, but the line about doing anything for your family. That makes me think its a Khan going after Kirk for the death of his wife. Again.
I'm really more excited to see Benedict Cumberbatch more than anything else. There's word that this will actually develop Kirk's character into more of the TOS Kirk, which is exciting as well.
Yea, if it's not Khan then the guys who edited this trailer are clearly trying to fool us into thinking it is.
Also by family he might have meant the augments, since Khan considered them family.
However he was wearing a Starfleet shirt, which leans more toward Gary Mitchell.
But the trailer makes it sound like the plot is an angry guy trying to take out earth (and possibly federation) because his family died.
Sounds quite a bit like the last one, but we'll see.
-
We'll figure out more as they get closer to the release date, since their first trailer needs to be used to interest people in seeing the movie and the trailer that was just released has done that. :corn
-
There's a two minute trailer released online on Dec 17.
MAYBE that will finally reveal who Cumbersome-name is playing.
-
Either that, or it will eliminate certain other possible characters. I don't expect to figure out what the story is about until sometime after the new year.
-
I am getting tired of every website and Trek fan going
" LOL it's Khan - Can't Wait LOL "
At which point in that trailer is there any clue that it's Khan Singh ?
In this timeline they haven't even been introduced yet. You can't have a 2 hour movie where Kirk has to find Khan and then do something to wrong him.
Secondly - Khan was never in Starfleet - whoever is in the trailer IS.
Thirdly - Khan was genetically engineered but he couldn't jump 50 feet in the air like Benedict does in that teaser.
Fourthly - Both Simon Pegg & Benedict have both said that they're tired of denying that it's Khan.
So yeah. Not Khan.
-
Yea, its getting ridiculous. Your four-point post should be posted everywhere. You can't argue with the facts.
-
I think their logic works something like this: Khan > facts.
-
Their Logic is most....Illogical.
By their Logic - the final film in JJ's trilogy will be a remake of Search For Spock and whoever is cast as the lead villain will *definitely* be Klingon Commander Kruge.
-
I am getting tired of every website and Trek fan going
" LOL it's Khan - Can't Wait LOL "
At which point in that trailer is there any clue that it's Khan Singh ?
In this timeline they haven't even been introduced yet. You can't have a 2 hour movie where Kirk has to find Khan and then do something to wrong him.
Secondly - Khan was never in Starfleet - whoever is in the trailer IS.
Thirdly - Khan was genetically engineered but he couldn't jump 50 feet in the air like Benedict does in that teaser.
Fourthly - Both Simon Pegg & Benedict have both said that they're tired of denying that it's Khan.
So yeah. Not Khan.
I'll argue from the devils advocate perspective, but please know that I don't think it's Khan. I think it's Gary Mitchel (not that it matters, it's Benedict Cucumber-Batch being an evil guy who wants to kill people, I don't think characters matter so much anymore). But here's why some people (not me) may think it's Khan.
Firstly, there is a clue. Not a direct clue mind you, but there's a scene mirroring the Kirk/Spock goodbye hand thing from Khan, it was shown specifically to make us link it to Khan.
Secondly, it's not a Starfleet uniform, it's a shirt. Something they may have given to someone they picked up and didn't have clothing.
Thirdly, when it comes to bad writing (like these movies have) jumping 50 feet in the air can be done by anybody. Did you ever see the Wolverine movie? Agent 0 wasn't able to jump 50 feet, but he sure did it a few times in the movie. Bad writing doesn't care much about logic.
Fourthly, they're English, they lie!
-
Also, the "It can't be Khan because Khan never could jump 50 feet in the air" is countered by the whole "alternate timeline" bit..
;)
-
Also, the "It can't be Khan because Khan never could jump 50 feet in the air" is countered by the whole "alternate timeline" bit..
;)
I hope you're joking. You have no idea how annoyed I'm getting by "Anything goes....its an alternate timeline!"
"Spock's black? Alternate time line"
"The Enterprise is now a schooner? Alternate time line!"
"The movie is now a musical featuring the kids from Glee? ALTERNATE TIME LINE!"
"Star trek never existed in the first place and it's all just a massive group hallucination? ALTERNATE GOD DAMN TIME LINE!"
-
Well, either the "alternate time line" excuse or simply "this is the reboot we can do whatever the fuck we want" excuse. Take your pick.
-
Well, either the "alternate time line" excuse or simply "this is the reboot we can do whatever the fuck we want" excuse. Take your pick.
I prefer "We have bad writers who do terrible jobs at writing because they're awful writers".
It's just more honest.
-
The thing is, we don't actually know that they're awful writers, since we have no assurance that this is actually the best that they can do. All they've done so far is write for the least common denominator. They write movies that will sell a bazillion tickets and lead to a bazillion more rentals and home video purchases. It doesn't have to be good, it just has to sell. And in their defense, I don't think they're actually trying to write "legitimately good" movies, not in the old-school sense. They're writing big blockbuster movies.
-
The thing is, we don't actually know that they're awful writers, since we have no assurance that this is actually the best that they can do. All they've done so far is write for the least common denominator. They write movies that will sell a bazillion tickets and lead to a bazillion more rentals and home video purchases. It doesn't have to be good, it just has to sell. And in their defense, I don't think they're actually trying to write "legitimately good" movies, not in the old-school sense. They're writing big blockbuster movies.
If people do bad work, I consider them bad at what they do until they prove me wrong.
If Orci and Kurtzman write something great, then I'll reconsider. But as of now, I will consider them terrible writes since everything they write is terrible.
Who knows, maybe Rebecca Black sings Puccini for fun?
-
I meant it in jest. I'd just read through where you'd been so pissed about the reboot. And I was pointing out how literally anything can be explained via the "alternate timeline" argument; although it wouldn't seem that far-fetched to say that a genetically-engineered guy was given a super-jump ability.
Although, on the reboot, one thing I disagree with to some extent is how bad Simon Pegg was. I mean, sure he was pretty much just comic relief in the form of an engineer but really, after the TOS was Scotty really anything else? For instance, I know how having him speak into a CAD computer's mouse is integral to the plot but I'm having a hard time explain it to people who aren't ST fans. ;)
-
Edit: Nevermind, not getting into the whole "reboot is the best" argument again.
-
I wasn't arguing that the reboot is the best.
-
Spock's death was a bit anticlimactic for me for a couple of reasons. First, it was abundantly obvious that they were going to bring him back in subsequent movies, but more importantly, William Shatner's "acting" is, well, bad :jets:
Not sure if you are old enough, but were you aware of the ‘rumors’ surrounding Spock’s upcoming death in ST2? If so, that would make it incredibly anti-climactic. It was written as a final, done-deal by Nick Meyer, but once they saw the potential for more move revenue, they added in the ‘Remember’ the final scene on Genesis, and Spock’s “prologue” at the end, over the objections of Meyer.
And Shatner’s acting is very solid, IF he is being directly appropriately. He is excellent in those final scenes. Compare him in ST2 and ST6 to ST:TMP and ST5.
Yeah, unfortunately, I'm old enough to have watched the original series when it originally aired :jets:
I didn't know about any rumors leading up to the second movie, but I knew the minute I saw that "Remember" thing that something bad was about to happen to Spock, and when he died I immediately knew they'd be making another movie to somehow revive him. The plot device was kind of obvious......as for Shatner's acting, I guess it's just a matter of opinion. I've always found him to be kind of schmaltzy and overly dramatic, but he does come from a different era when that style of acting was more the norm, so I generally give him a pass on it.
-
"Firstly, there is a clue. Not a direct clue mind you, but there's a scene mirroring the Kirk/Spock goodbye hand thing from Khan, it was shown specifically to make us link it to Khan. "
It has been revealed online that it's Cumberbatch's character's hand on the glass. And that he's in the Enterprise Brig.
So it's not Spock / Kirk doing the Wrath Of khan thing.
Yet more reason that it's not Khan in this movie.
-
"Firstly, there is a clue. Not a direct clue mind you, but there's a scene mirroring the Kirk/Spock goodbye hand thing from Khan, it was shown specifically to make us link it to Khan. "
It has been revealed online that it's Cumberbatch's character's hand on the glass. And that he's in the Enterprise Brig.
So it's not Spock / Kirk doing the Wrath Of khan thing.
Yet more reason that it's not Khan in this movie.
Also, uhm... Benedict Cumberbatch looks nothing like Khan.
-
We don't know what Khan looks like in the rebooted universe.
-
I loved Chris Pine's Kirk. Whatever you may think of the reboot, what I did like about it was their effort to depict a headstrong, ballsy Kirk who's "all me" learning a lesson in humility, and thus turning into the loyal and dependable captain we all know and love.
-
The arguments that it is Khan are taking a decidedly sharp turn towards "anti-vaccine" territory.
-
I loved Chris Pine's Kirk. Whatever you may think of the reboot, what I did like about it was their effort to depict a headstrong, ballsy Kirk who's "all me" learning a lesson in humility, and thus turning into the loyal and dependable captain we all know and love.
This is one of the things I found to be SO STRONG about the reboot. The characters. With the exception of Chekov (who was terrible) I thought everyone else was portrayed *perfectly*...I would not have done a single thing differently.
The "big 3" (Kirk, Spock, Bones) were cast and portrayed *PERFECTLY*, the rest were exactly as they should have been....and have been since the leap to movies....side characters. In a TV show it is much easier to give a large cast more development and screen time. But the moment you make the leap to movies, you HAVE to start streamlining down to your most important characters. And from all the way back to ST:TMP, the focus has been primarily on Kirk, Spock and Bones...with the rest of the classic crew relegated to side roles. To tell you the truth, I thought JJ developed them MORE than a) I thought he would and b) the last few TOS movies did.
-
I also liked Zoe Saldana's Uhura.
-
I also liked Zoe Saldana's Uhura.
Sulu was extremely well played too. I really loved them all with the exception of Chekov, and I hope they fix that in the new one.
-
I really like Anton Yelchin, but my god was that accent horrendous. If he perfected it, it'd work out I think. Then again I'm not sure what the original character's foundation was like, so if he just screwed up the character, that's another thing entirely. Great actor though, he can play both serious and funny roles and is usually pretty emotionally becoking
-
I really like Anton Yelchin, but my god was that accent horrendous. If he perfected it, it'd work out I think. Then again I'm not sure what the original character's foundation was like, so if he just screwed up the character, that's another thing entirely. Great actor though, he can play both serious and funny roles and is usually pretty emotionally becoking
What's even funnier is that he's ACTUALLY Russian. (Walter Koening was of Russian/Jewish decent...but was born in America) So he actually has the background to do a BETTER Russian accent than Walter did. I think it's because he TRIED to make it a caricature instead of just being natural. I think that was a bad move.
-
I really like Anton Yelchin, but my god was that accent horrendous. If he perfected it, it'd work out I think. Then again I'm not sure what the original character's foundation was like, so if he just screwed up the character, that's another thing entirely. Great actor though, he can play both serious and funny roles and is usually pretty emotionally becoking
What's even funnier is that he's ACTUALLY Russian. (Walter Koening was of Russian/Jewish decent...but was born in America) So he actually has the background to do a BETTER Russian accent than Walter did. I think it's because he TRIED to make it a caricature instead of just being natural. I think that was a bad move.
Yeah, I was gonna say... :lol
-
Bones definitely had the best balance between caricature and originality.
He *WAS* Bones. No doubt about it.
Pine was more like the Kirk we know now at the end of ST 2009
Spock just needs to bring out his human side a bit more and Chekov needs to tone down the accent slightly.
-
We don't know what Khan looks like in the rebooted universe.
True, but you'd expect him to at least be of the same ethnicity...
-
Bones definitely had the best balance between caricature and originality.
He *WAS* Bones. No doubt about it.
Pine was more like the Kirk we know now at the end of ST 2009
Spock just needs to bring out his human side a bit more and Chekov needs to tone down the accent slightly.
I agree with this completely :tup
-
We don't know what Khan looks like in the rebooted universe.
True, but you'd expect him to at least be of the same ethnicity...
Maybe. The character Khan was supposed to be of Indian descant but was played by Ricardo Montalban, who was Mexican. In the 60's, American TV audiences saw "generic dark-featured foreigner" and that was all they needed. So I'd say they could still do whatever they want with the reboot.
-
People who have seen the nine minute prologue say Benedict Cumberbatch is already on Earth at the start of the film.
Even more evidence that it's not Khan since he should be frozen in space now. Even messing with the timeline won't change that.
People are actually so desperate for it to be Khan that they're grasping at straws.
" Oh - Spock is seen in the middle of a new planet being created !!! You see Khan with the Genesis device !! "
*OR*
" Spock is in a volcano to stop a planet being destroyed ? { revealed in the prologue } "
I can't wait for it to come out and all the Khan fanboys to be like ".......oh."
I'm definitely going to see it in IMAX. And definitely in 2D. It was filmed in 2D. I'll watch it in 2D. I'm not paying extra to see a Pop-Up Book version of Star Trek with a slightly darker image thank you.
-
No Trek fan could possibly believe that it's Khan at this point without being plain delusional.
-
No Trek fan could possibly believe that it's Khan at this point without being plain delusional.
I know !! Yet the speculation and "proof" is all over the net...
:facepalm: How in any possible way is it Khan ?
" Oh the pattern on the jacket is reminiscent of the pattern on the jacket of Khan in the wrath of khan !!!!!!! "
Oh so it's definitely him then - because he'll definitely be wearing the same clothes 15 years later..
-
No Trek fan could possibly believe that it's Khan at this point without being plain delusional.
I know !! Yet the speculation and "proof" is all over the net...
:facepalm: How in any possible way is it Khan ?
" Oh the pattern on the jacket is reminiscent of the pattern on the jacket of Khan in the wrath of khan !!!!!!! "
Oh so it's definitely him then - because he'll definitely be wearing the same clothes 15 years later..
Wasn't there a leaked picture ages ago that showed the Starfleet patch on Cumberbatch's uniform? That plus one of the main characters being made up to look identical to the girl from WNMHGB, I can't see how there's any doubt at this point.
It is clutching at straws, while ignoring the longer, sturdier straws. :lol
-
The only way it would be Khan is if literally everything we've seen so far is all fake and they've just remade TWOK secretly.
Including all leaked set shots - all interviews - all trailers and nine minute press screenings.
Everything.
I doubt Paramount would be very happy about that. And JJ is not *THAT* secretive.
-
I don't really care what they do. Yeah, sure, I'd prefer an original story to a remake, but....*shrug* It's just a movie :)
-
I don't really care what they do. Yeah, sure, I'd prefer an original story to a remake, but....*shrug* It's just a movie :)
The general storyline could be based on a remake for all we know. They have just taken the general idea and built their own story around it. At this point in time, 99% of the information surrounding the movie is extremely unclear or unknown.
-
Seems like they kind of gave themselves permission to do whatever they want with the whole "alternate timeline" concept. I was hoping they'd do something interesting with it. I agree, though, that you can't really tell much from the trailer that's been released.
-
This COULD be just more of JJ's misdirection....but apparently Cumberbun's role is NEITHER Khan NOR Gary Mitchell.
This actually makes me happy.
https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/star-trek-darkness-pic-hold-clues-villains-identity.html
-
One thing that spooked me was how close the narrative voice sounded to Patrick Stewart.
-
In that both he and Cumberbatch are English?
-
In that both he and Cumberbatch are English?
I didn't pay enough attention to compare accents, but they're from rather distant cities, so they're accents are probably pretty different.
-
This COULD be just more of JJ's misdirection....but apparently Cumberbun's role is NEITHER Khan NOR Gary Mitchell.
This actually makes me happy.
https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/star-trek-darkness-pic-hold-clues-villains-identity.html
It's like they're using elements from Space Seed but not actually using Khan at all.
It's also been revealed that Alice Eve is Carol Marcus and not the one from WNMHGB.
That'll be Kirk's love interest then and his future wife unless she dies...
So that's a guy from Space Seed and the woman who will go on to make the Genesis Device.
It's like they're teasing hinting at The Wrath Of Khan but at the same time staying well away from it.
-
I don't think it's Khan, but it would be hilarious if it is, if only for Kotowboy's reaction.
-
:biggrin: :biggrin:
Ha. But yeah - there's just no way it is. Nothing released so far has in any way even hinted at Khan.
-
:biggrin: :biggrin:
Ha. But yeah - there's just no way it is. Nothing released so far has in any way even hinted at Khan.
How about that rumor that it's Khan? I'd say that's pretty conclusive proof.
Hell maybe they'll make him "Gary Mitchel Noonien Singh" or something. It's an alternate timeline after all!
-
I wouldn't mind if they used elements from Space Seed of TWOK - as long as it's not a straight up remake or rehash.
An original story / villain with nods to what's gone before would be the best idea.
As for rumours - that's just stupid.
When the next one comes out - there will probably be rumours that whoever is the lead villain is "definitely" Commander Kruge...Even if he's not Klingon.
-
Because in the alternate timeline, Kruge is a Ferengi.
So I gave it some thought. Since this is a "reboot" it's not so much Star Trek XI as it is Star Trek (Phase 3 or whatever). And since the last movie wasn't that much worse than TMP (Not TPM) then maybe this will be better like TWOK was better than TMP. Granted the trailer made me feel like it's just a Transformers movie dressed up as a Star Trek movie, but who knows, I've been fooled before.
-
I want some Ferengi with those electric whips.
-
(https://tytempletonart.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/startrekcorset1.jpg)
-
You KNOW someone with that body isn't actually a Trek fan.
-
The villain's name is John Harrison:
https://www.startrek.com/article/check-out-new-star-trek-into-darkness-image
-
You KNOW someone with that body isn't actually a Trek fan.
Good point. For one, armpits are shaved. Dead giveaway it's not a Trekkie.
-
The villain's name is John Harrison:
https://www.startrek.com/article/check-out-new-star-trek-into-darkness-image
Not necessarily.
-
I kinda assumed StarTrek.com would be the authority on the name of the villain in a Star Trek movie. Although yes, it is obviously Khan.
-
I kinda assumed StarTrek.com would be the authority on the name of the villain in a Star Trek movie. Although yes, it is obviously Khan.
lol. The picture was tagged with the name John Harrison. But since they clearly want to keep his identity a secret for now, then it's rather likely to just be a fake stand in name.
But then again, since it's by horrible writers, it may very well be John Harrison.
-
There was a negligible amount of srs in that last post, in case that wasn't clear.
-
There was a negligible amount of srs in that last post, in case that wasn't clear.
Well I assumed the Khan thing was a joke. But I have no idea if you really thought his name was John Harrison.
-
Oh, I have no idea. It was villain name news so I posted it.
-
Oh, I have no idea. It was villain name news so I posted it.
Gotcha. Honestly though it probably won't even matter what his name is. If it's Gary Mitchel or Khan or John Harrison or Slade Wilson, it probably won't matter. He'll likely be a one dimensional cliche'd villain anyway just like Nero, and Megatron, the aliens in Cowboys and Aliens, and every other villain that Orci and Kurtzman ever wrote.
-
MORE NEW SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/alice-eves-star-trek-darkness-character-identified-klingons-confirmed.html
-
God damn Alice Eve looks creepy in that picture.
Although it'll be nice to see her and Cucumberman in another film together.
-
God damn Alice Eve looks creepy in that picture.
Creepy in a hot way. :blob:
If she's Carol Marcus, I'd like to know why she's made up to look exactly like the girl from WNMHGB. And also, wasn't the villian narrowed down to a shortlist ages ago? Or was that not really official?
Even with the names, I have trouble seeing that this is anything but WNMHGB, and I still don't see it having anything to do with Khan.
-
On a totally different topic, I just learned that the actress who played Leah Brahms was considered for Captain Janeway. Given my opinion of Kate Mulgrew, I'm bummed. I think she could have been good.
-
She was hotter, too.
-
She was hotter, too.
That one wouldn't take much. At all. :lol
But that aside, I thought Kate Mulgrew did an amazing job with Janeway given what they wrote for her. I can't imagine anyone else doing a better job with that material.
-
Kate was good. And who knows? It might have ended up being a distraction having a "pretty" captain to watch every week, and it might have been harder to accept her making the tough decisions and generally being a badass if/when the situation called for it. But as it was, I had problems with Janeway anyway. The way it seemed like every other week they had some possible way to get home quicker but couldn't because it meant compromising their morals or something, she just reminded me of my junior high English teachers being bitchy and having stupid rules for no apparent reason. If she at least was hot, I may have been more forgiving.
-
Kate was good. And who knows? It might have ended up being a distraction having a "pretty" captain to watch every week, and it might have been harder to accept her making the tough decisions and generally being a badass if/when the situation called for it. But as it was, I had problems with Janeway anyway. The way it seemed like every other week they had some possible way to get home quicker but couldn't because it meant compromising their morals or something, she just reminded me of my junior high English teachers being bitchy and having stupid rules for no apparent reason. If she at least was hot, I may have been more forgiving.
:lol
Well luckily by S4 they had all the eye candy they needed (unless you're some kind of weirdo who doesn't find a chick with an amazing body in a catsuit attractive pffft), so that isn't really the first thing on my mind.
At least Mulgrew sold it with conviction. She almost made you think they were doing the right thing. Almost. And that was a hell of a feat to sustain for 7 seasons. A lesser actress would have failed.
-
I didn't have a problem with Mulgrew, could have been better but she was okay.
However Chekotay, Kim, Torres and a few others were just really bad for the most part. Paris was okay but never great.
Actually I think The Doctor and 7 were the only consistently good members. And I also didn't hate Neelix as much as everyone else seems to.
-
I didn't have a problem with Mulgrew, could have been better but she was okay.
However Chekotay, Kim, Torres and a few others were just really bad for the most part. Paris was okay but never great.
Actually I think The Doctor and 7 were the only consistently good members. And I also didn't hate Neelix as much as everyone else seems to.
Pretty much that. Most of them were pretty bad actors. I actually quite liked the space rat with skullet mohawk, I mean Neelix. He had personality.
Some people complain that later seasons were more of The Doctor, Janeway and 7, but I'm glad it went that way, because they were the best ones, especially Doc.
-
I don't know, I guess I'm one of the few who Janeway rubbed the wrong way. The problem was that they wrote this motherly aspect into the character, but Mulgrew always came across as your mom sitting at your bed when you have the flu. "Aaawww, little honeybunny, does your throat hurt? Let me rub your belly." Mulgrew was reasonably good at pulling off the tough captain, but when it came to that soft side they wanted to be the captain, I thought she was pretty bad. Looking at the Leah Brahms character, I think Susan Gibney would have done a better job with the material.
BTW, I don't know how many remember, but Susan Gibney also played a Starfleet character in DS9 (https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Erika_Benteen). And there she came across as very convincing in a similar role. And yes, a LOT hotter too.
-
I don't know, I guess I'm one of the few who Janeway rubbed the wrong way. The problem was that they wrote this motherly aspect into the character, but Mulgrew always came across as your mom sitting at your bed when you have the flu. "Aaawww, little honeybunny, does your throat hurt? Let me rub your belly." Mulgrew was reasonably good at pulling off the tough captain, but when it came to that soft side they wanted to be the captain, I thought she was pretty bad. Looking at the Leah Brahms character, I think Susan Gibney would have done a better job with the material.
BTW, I don't know how many remember, but Susan Gibney also played a Starfleet character in DS9 (https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Erika_Benteen). And there she came across as very convincing in a similar role. And yes, a LOT hotter too.
*LE SIGH*
EDIT: You all forget that if Gibney would have been cast as Janeway....we would be having annual "Janeway or Seven of Nine" debates... (If Gibney would have been cast...I would have taken Janeway EVERY TIME!!)
-
Gibney hotter than 7?
Crazy talk.
-
Actually with jammin on this one. I found 7 to be almost a caricature of a human body. The only time she was really attractive was when she was portrayed to be non-Borg.
So yeah, I probably would have voted for Gibney-Janeway in those contests.
-
Gibney hotter than 7?
Crazy talk.
Crazy like a fox.
I'm not even generally a fan of the pumped up blonde look, but it's still no contest here.
-
I have no problem with Janeway not looking like a runway model. I mean, Stewart, Brooks, etc weren't exactly model looking guys. They looked real. Janeway looked real. I appreciated that.
-
Most of you guys already know from other threads that I prefer them "built"...
But Jere Ryan just has this weird, creepy looking face. IDK, if you guys think she's cute, more power to you. But a face does account for something and Gibney was just....WOW!
And the hair (please don't tell me it was a hairpiece or I'll cry)...Gibney's hair was absolutely PERFECT.
-
I have no problem with Janeway not looking like a runway model. I mean, Stewart, Brooks, etc weren't exactly model looking guys. They looked real. Janeway looked real. I appreciated that.
I had no problem with it either. The scifi cliche is to cast the super hot chick, so it was nice to have such an important character to be more realistic and honest. Plus they well and truly balanced it out once they got 7 of 9.
But I'm going to disagree with you about Stewart and Brooks. I would eat Gagh off their sexy chrome domes, and lick off whatever was left. That's not weird. You're weird.
-
Most of you guys already know from other threads that I prefer them "built"...
But Jere Ryan just has this weird, creepy looking face.
(https://www.webstaurantstore.com/52-lb-1-8-brown-paper-barrel-sack-500-bundle/52-lb-1-8-brown-paper-barrel-sack-500-bundle.jpg)
Problem solved.
-
Most of you guys already know from other threads that I prefer them "built"...
But Jere Ryan just has this weird, creepy looking face.
(https://www.webstaurantstore.com/52-lb-1-8-brown-paper-barrel-sack-500-bundle/52-lb-1-8-brown-paper-barrel-sack-500-bundle.jpg)
Problem solved.
Think of it like an "inverted catsuit"........
-
Dunno if anyone here watches Warehouse 13, but the main guys mom is played by Mulgrew and his ex-wife is played by Jeri Ryan.
Just interesting.
-
Dunno if anyone here watches Warehouse 13, but the main guys mom is played by Mulgrew and his ex-wife is played by Jeri Ryan.
Just interesting.
Yep. I found that pretty funny.
-
Yeah, we're Warehouse 13 fans in our house as well, and the Janeway/Seven thing was noticed.
-
This discussion is rather academic anyway, since Ezri Dax blows them all out the water.
-
This discussion is rather academic anyway, since Ezri Dax blows them all out the water.
Well freakin duh man, but arguing for 2nd place has its merits.
Personally, I was always under the impression that Troi got continuously hotter as her starfleet career progressed.
-
Ezri Dax is an annoying little mole who can't act. You can have her.
I'm taking Hoshi.
-
Ezri Dax is an annoying little mole who can't act. You can have her.
I'm taking Hoshi.
I have a feeling we already discussed Hoshi. Didn't one of us end up with Hoshi and the other with Mirror Universe Hoshi or something?
-
Ezri Dax is an annoying little mole who can't act. You can have her.
I'm taking Hoshi.
I have a feeling we already discussed Hoshi. Didn't one of us end up with Hoshi and the other with Mirror Universe Hoshi or something?
That rings a bell. Enjoy your stab in the back.
-
Wait, I ended up with evil Hoshi?
Crap. Ah well, I guess I can barrow Jackies Handcuffs.
-
I preferred Jadzia Dax to Ezri
-
Ezri Dax was the cutest Star Trek chick ever. No contest.
-
She just looked too young for me, which is probably why you say "cutest". She is cute, but not hot lol
-
I think she's hot, just not in a supermodel-living-coathanger kinda way.
-
Personally, I was always under the impression that Troi got continuously hotter as her starfleet career progressed.
+1
-
On Mulgrew's Janeway being bad, remember that she wasn't the original that got hired. The lady they originally went with was as interesting as a block of wood in terms of her performance. At least from the clips I saw a while back...
-
On Mulgrew's Janeway being bad, remember that she wasn't the original that got hired. The lady they originally went with was as interesting as a block of wood in terms of her performance. At least from the clips I saw a while back...
I've heard she had never done TV before...she was *intolerable* on the set...and finally just walked off.
The only thing I've ever seen her in was the late 70's film version of the Robin Cook novel "Coma"... Written and directed by Michael Crichton
-
Glancing through her wikipedia entry, it seems her only TV before then was in a bunch of miniseries, which is a whole different game than a regular series.
-
You know who should have played Janeway? Patrick Stewart.
You know who should have played Sisko? Patrick Stewart.
You know who should have played Archer? Patrick Stewart.
You know who should have played Kirk? PATRICK STEWART!
-
You know who should have played Kirk? PATRICK STEWART!
Whoa whoa whoa whoa. I don't care how much he overacts, Shatner is Kirk.
-
You know who should have played Kirk? PATRICK STEWART!
Whoa whoa whoa whoa. I don't care how much he overacts, Shatner is Kirk.
Sorry, got a little carried away.
-
Ezri Dax is an annoying little mole who can't act. You can have her.
She was better in Becker.
-
Ezri Dax is an annoying little mole who can't act. You can have her.
She was better in Becker.
Wasn't that Jedzia?
-
Actually with jammin on this one. I found 7 to be almost a caricature of a human body. The only time she was really attractive was when she was portrayed to be non-Borg.
I agree with you, 7 looked amazing when in standard clothes, Jeri Ryan is a crazy attractive woman.
Ezri Dax is an annoying little mole who can't act. You can have her.
She was better in Becker.
Wasn't that Jedzia?
Yea it was Jedzia. I prefer ezri to jedzia.
-
I wonder why they never did a Q movie??
I suppose there would be too much room for endless Deus Ex Machina !
I would like a Trek movie just once where it's actually about exploration and finding weird things in space.
Something like " The Motion Picture " but one that isn't quite so slow paced.
-
I would have paid a lot of money for a Q movie.
-
I would like a Trek movie just once where it's actually about exploration and finding weird things in space.
Something like " The Motion Picture " but one that isn't quite so slow paced.
Wasn't it called Prometheus?
-
I wonder why they never did a Q movie??
I don't know, but I'm glad they didn't. I hate Q.
-
I would like a Trek movie just once where it's actually about exploration and finding weird things in space.
Something like " The Motion Picture " but one that isn't quite so slow paced.
Wasn't it called Prometheus?
Kind of - People have said that it owes more to Trek than Alien...
Plus it has more horror elements than Star Trek usually does.
But yeah - something along those lines. Just with the usual Trek excitement. :)
-
Ezri Dax is an annoying little mole who can't act. You can have her.
She was better in Becker.
Wasn't that Jedzia?
Yea it was Jedzia. I prefer ezri to jedzia.
Me too. She acted exactly the way the writers wanted her to act. I can't remember who, I think Moore, said they loved her almost immediately after she started her audition.
Nicole DeBoer (Ezri) is also well known for her role in The Dead Zone. Another great scifi show, although unfortunately the writers thought they were going to get one more season when it ended. All it needed was one tv movie to wrap things up nicely, shame it never happened.
-
https://www.accesshollywood.com/benedict-cumberbatch-im-not-playing-khan-in-star-trek-into-darkness_article_73762
This probably will still not stop people saying it's Khan.
-
Fair enough, my apologies to super dude.
-
Oh, I have no idea. It was villain name news so I posted it.
Gotcha. Honestly though it probably won't even matter what his name is. If it's Gary Mitchel or Khan or John Harrison or Slade Wilson, it probably won't matter. He'll likely be a one dimensional cliche'd villain anyway just like Nero, and Megatron, the aliens in Cowboys and Aliens, and every other villain that Orci and Kurtzman ever wrote.
From the previous link:
“I play John Harrison who’s a terrorist and an extraordinary character in his own right,” the Brit said. “He’s somebody who is not your two-dimensional cookie cutter villain. He’s got an extraordinary purpose, and I hope that at one point or other in the film you might even sympathize with the reasons he’s doing what he’s doing — not necessarily the means and the destruction he causes. But it was a great ride, not just because he’s the bad guy and the antagonist but also because he has a purpose and it’s hard not to see his point of view at certain points.”
I surely hope that's true.
-
I sure hope so too. :)
Hey, just cause Orci and Kurtzman have never written a villain who wasn't a 1 dimensional cookie cutter villain, doesn't mean there isn't room for a first.
Wait a minute..........Cumberbatch said he's not a TWO dimensional villain. AH HAH! So he admits to either being 1 dimensional or 3 dimensional.
-
Wait a minute..........Cumberbatch said he's not a TWO dimensional villain. AH HAH! So he admits to either being 1 dimensional or 3 dimensional.
Well, he passes through time, so he may even be 4 dimensional.
-
He's a 1- dimensional villain.
But the film itself is in 3D to make up for it :biggrin:
-
Just seen this article on line.
" Cumberbatch actually does play a John Harrison. He is called it by name in the actual movie...
...But what does that have to do with Khan ? "
:facepalm: OMFG..... NOTHING..
-
I'd like to apologize to everybody (Kotowboy, Jingle.San, and Jammindude) for being such a douche regarding my low opinion of the new movie franchise. From now on (not limited to this thread) I will simply keep all negative opinions to myself and only voice helpful positive ones.
That said, Cumberbatch has always impressed me in what little I've seen him in, so I am looking forward to seeing him in this new movie. :)
-
That's the spirit !!
But seriously - why does every new information have to be a debate on how it links to The Wrath Of Khan?
MAYBE THEY'RE NOT DOING THAT FUCKING STORY AGAIN ?!?!
Oh but it's got Carol Marcus in - she invented the Genesis Device !!
YES - SHE WILL DO !!! BUT SHE IS ALSO KIRK'S LOVE INTEREST. SHE IS A CANON STAR TREK CHARACTER IN A STAR TREK FILM. IMAGINE THAT !!!!!
DOES NOT MEAN THIS IS A KHAN FILM !!!!
Oh but you see Spock in a planet which is obviously the Genesis Planet !!!
OR MAYBE HE'S JUST IN A FUCKING VOLCANO.....
But the main character wants vengenace !!! Khan wanted Vengeance !!!
SO THAT MEANS NERO, GENERAL CHANG, SORAN AND COMMANDER KRUGE ARE ALL KHAN TOO !!!!!!!!
:angry: Sheesh !!!
-
Cumberbatch isn't playing Khan !!!! Someone else in the film MUST BE !!!!
*sigh*....
-
Cumberbatch isn't playing Khan !!!! Someone else in the film MUST BE !!!!
*sigh*....
It's okay buddy. You khant convince everybody. :)
-
Haha. :)
I just don't understand why it just HAS to be Khan again ??
There was no V'ger in the first one. There won't be a commander Kruge in the next one.
-
Well I for one am happy that it is not Khan or Mitchell. It is also very cool to see Carol Marcus in there, especially since it's before she has his kid and so forth, so we can see the beginnings of their relationship.
-
Anyone else feel that James hijacked Adami's account?
-
Anyone else feel that James hijacked Adami's account?
James' thing with the smileys was an attempt to mock me. Please don't bring undue attention to me, I am merely trying to post in a positive manner (again). Thank you. :)
-
Anyone else feel that James hijacked Adami's account?
James' thing with the smileys was an attempt to mock me. Please don't bring undue attention to me, I am merely trying to post in a positive manner (again). Thank you. :)
Okily dokily. :tup
-
So moving past that silly-ass movie and it's trailer full of destruction for a bit. Is In the Pale Moonlight the best episode of any of the series? What's better?
-
So moving past that silly-ass movie and it's trailer full of destruction for a bit. Is In the Pale Moonlight the best episode of any of the series? What's better?
Not sure I'd personally call it best, but by the same token I won't name one that's "better", because it's definitely worthy, and by that point it's down to personal preference. And I have trouble choosing for DS9, since it's more serialized, and somewhat hard to take an episode out of context.
But just for fun, I'll try to name what I consider possibly the best of each series-
TOS - probably The City of the Edge of Forever
TNG - the one series I don't own, so it's been too long since I've seen it. Plenty of obvious choices here though.
Enterprise - Similitude?
Voyager - for me probably Timeless?
(that's from a quick skim, so feel free to offer alternatives)
-
For DS9, when in doubt - pick Far Beyond the Stars. Never a bad choice.
-
So moving past that silly-ass movie and it's trailer full of destruction for a bit. Is In the Pale Moonlight the best episode of any of the series? What's better?
I'm not sure it's the best DS9 episode, though it is one I would always consider for a 'best of' list. I'm not willing to call it better than Duet, Things Past, It's Only a Paper Moon, Far Beyond the Stars, The Visitor, a few of the season openers/closers, some Garak or Eddington centric ones, etc. Some of the series highlights are the arcs (or episodes in them) like The Cirlce, DS9 takeover, and the finisher, which is hard to pick out a single stand alone episode. Then you have some more lighthearted ones that are great but really hard to compare to, like In the Cards and The Magnificent Ferengi. I suppose being lighter I wouldn't list them at top, but they have their place.
-
Dealing with DS9, The Visitor certainly qualifies as one of the finest episodes. I'd say the difference is in style. ItPM is one you can just pop on and enjoy whenever. The Visitor is intense enough that you really have to be in a certain frame of mind to watch it.
I just watched Far Beyond the Stars yesterday, and while there's a good deal to like about it, in the end I just don't care for Avery Brooks' overacting. In fact, I don't think any of them really did a very good job with their parts, except surprisingly Dax as the ditzy secretary. The rest of them mostly seemed like cheesy stereotypes.
Enterprise - Similitude?
That's actually a damn fine mention. Despite the unlikeliness of the premise, it's still one of the best examples of the ethical quandaries that make ST so entertaining to me.
-
Dealing with DS9, The Visitor certainly qualifies as one of the finest episodes. I'd say the difference is in style. ItPM is one you can just pop on and enjoy whenever. The Visitor is intense enough that you really have to be in a certain frame of mind to watch it.
I think they're pretty similar. In the Pale Moonlight is not an episode I can just pop on and watch. Intense and personal definitely describe it.
I just watched Far Beyond the Stars yesterday, and while there's a good deal to like about it, in the end I just don't care for Avery Brooks' overacting. In fact, I don't think any of them really did a very good job with their parts, except surprisingly Dax as the ditzy secretary. The rest of them mostly seemed like cheesy stereotypes.
Never agreed on him overacting there. It is extreme for an emotional outburst on tv, but it fits his character just losing it.
The cheesy stereotyping wasn't really stereotyping. Most of the writing office was based on people involved in pulp scifi. Maybe stereotypes exist, but it could be that they're playing parts of people that helped create those stereotypes. They may have overemphasized to get the references across, I don't know, I think it was supposed to be a 'fun' fill of reference. I know Asimov, Ellison, the Cthulla guy and some Trek writers were all referenced by the writing staff.
-
So moving past that silly-ass movie and it's trailer full of destruction for a bit. Is In the Pale Moonlight the best episode of any of the series? What's better?
Not sure I'd personally call it best, but by the same token I won't name one that's "better", because it's definitely worthy, and by that point it's down to personal preference. And I have trouble choosing for DS9, since it's more serialized, and somewhat hard to take an episode out of context.
But just for fun, I'll try to name what I consider possibly the best of each series-
TOS - probably The City of the Edge of Forever
TNG - the one series I don't own, so it's been too long since I've seen it. Plenty of obvious choices here though.
Enterprise - Similitude?
Voyager - for me probably Timeless?
(that's from a quick skim, so feel free to offer alternatives)
There;s loads of good TNG ones where you're never quite sure what's going on like
The Lower Decks
Frame Of Mind
All Good Things.
A few that spring to mind..
-
Frame Of Mind
Is that the one with Riker in a play and a mental institution one?
I remember seeing that as a kid and it scared the hell out of me. Because of that I still find it unnerving. But it's great.
-
Yeah it's so good.
I had a theory for a while that the best episodes had thee words.
But Encounter At Farpoint :P
-
If there's anyone who saw the 9 minute preview around...could you post a review with a spoiler tag? I'd love to hear a bit about it.
-
It's all over the internet...
-
It opens with a family who have a sick kid. Cumberbatch says he can help. Doesn't reveal identity.
Cut to Kirk & Bones running from some natives on a red planet. They jump into the ocean where Enterprise is waiting.
Meanwhile - Spock is in a volcano to try to stop it erupting. He gets into trouble.
Kirk has to decide between saving Spock or obeying the Prime Directive.
End.
-
If it's between saving Spock and obeying the Prime Directive, we already know what Kirk's gonna do.
Well, unrebooted Kirk, anyway.
-
Plus Spock obviously won't die. Seeing as Quinto has said in the press he's not quitting Star Trek and would be up for doing " more than three movies ".
-
If it's between doing anything at all and obeying the Prime Directive, we already know what Kirk's gonna do.
Well, unrebooted Kirk, anyway.
Fixed :)
-
Ha, pretty much.
-
Now that STID news is dying down :
The question must be asked :
KIRK OR PICARD? :eek
-
Cut to Kirk & Bones running from some natives on a red planet. They jump into the ocean where Enterprise is waiting.
Meanwhile - Spock is in a volcano to try to stop it erupting. He gets into trouble.
Wah... what?? The Enterprise is in the ocean, and Spock is trying to prevent a volcano from erupting??
-
Yes.
-
So moving past that silly-ass movie and it's trailer full of destruction for a bit. Is In the Pale Moonlight the best episode of any of the series? What's better?
Not sure I'd personally call it best, but by the same token I won't name one that's "better", because it's definitely worthy, and by that point it's down to personal preference. And I have trouble choosing for DS9, since it's more serialized, and somewhat hard to take an episode out of context.
But just for fun, I'll try to name what I consider possibly the best of each series-
TOS - probably The City of the Edge of Forever
TNG - the one series I don't own, so it's been too long since I've seen it. Plenty of obvious choices here though.
Enterprise - Similitude?
Voyager - for me probably Timeless?
(that's from a quick skim, so feel free to offer alternatives)
There;s loads of good TNG ones where you're never quite sure what's going on like
The Lower Decks
Frame Of Mind
All Good Things.
A few that spring to mind..
The Lower Decks and AGT are both very good. Hated Frame of Mind. Anytime they tried to get overtly psychological it was usually a disaster. Exploring Data's psyche was always the worst.
-
It's all over the internet...
Yeah, websites saying "We've seen it!", "reviews," and "screened." No actual footage.
-
If it's between saving Spock and obeying the Prime Directive, we already know what Kirk's gonna do.
Well, unrebooted Kirk, anyway.
(https://www.blobvandam.com/link/troll_kirk.jpg)
Dealing with DS9, The Visitor certainly qualifies as one of the finest episodes. I'd say the difference is in style. ItPM is one you can just pop on and enjoy whenever. The Visitor is intense enough that you really have to be in a certain frame of mind to watch it.
I just watched Far Beyond the Stars yesterday, and while there's a good deal to like about it, in the end I just don't care for Avery Brooks' overacting. In fact, I don't think any of them really did a very good job with their parts, except surprisingly Dax as the ditzy secretary. The rest of them mostly seemed like cheesy stereotypes.
I didn't think his acting was over the top, at least in context. It looks silly when you see that end breakdown out of context, but after the progression of the story, and seeing what he had to put up with, I actually got quite emotional by the end of that episode. Considering the era it was set, I don't think the stereotypes were a problem either.
Enterprise - Similitude?
That's actually a damn fine mention. Despite the unlikeliness of the premise, it's still one of the best examples of the ethical quandaries that make ST so entertaining to me.
I agree. Star Trek has always been willing to allow convenient contrivances in the setup of a plot for the sake of telling the story they want to tell, so it's one of those things you either just accept or don't.
-
Oh hey guys, check out this TIME article I found just published yesterday!
https://entertainment.time.com/2012/12/14/star-trek-into-darkness-is-benedict-cumberbatch-playing-khan/
-
It's all over the internet...
Yeah, websites saying "We've seen it!", "reviews," and "screened." No actual footage.
I don't want to see it !!
-
Oh hey guys, check out this TIME article I found just published yesterday!
https://entertainment.time.com/2012/12/14/star-trek-into-darkness-is-benedict-cumberbatch-playing-khan/
Well he's got an English Accent - he must be playing Picard instead.
Brilliant Flawless Logic.
-
Oh hey guys, check out this TIME article I found just published yesterday!
https://entertainment.time.com/2012/12/14/star-trek-into-darkness-is-benedict-cumberbatch-playing-khan/
What a hilariously transparent bait of a title.
-
Oh hey guys, check out this TIME article I found just published yesterday!
https://entertainment.time.com/2012/12/14/star-trek-into-darkness-is-benedict-cumberbatch-playing-khan/
What a hilariously transparent bait of a title.
Seriously. :lol The only reason anyone is mentioning Khan at this point is for hype/publicity, or because they're ridiculously behind on their information.
-
Yeah it's definitely Picard now because Cumberbatch and Stewart are both English.
THATS ALL THE EVIDENCE YOU NEED !!!
-
Perhaps more amusing is the fan shitstorm in the comment section.
-
I just watched Far Beyond the Stars yesterday, and while there's a good deal to like about it, in the end I just don't care for Avery Brooks' overacting. In fact, I don't think any of them really did a very good job with their parts, except surprisingly Dax as the ditzy secretary. The rest of them mostly seemed like cheesy stereotypes.
I didn't think his acting was over the top, at least in context. It looks silly when you see that end breakdown out of context, but after the progression of the story, and seeing what he had to put up with, I actually got quite emotional by the end of that episode. Considering the era it was set, I don't think the stereotypes were a problem either.
His breakdown at the end actually wasn't horrible. I think the problem is that I've never thought him a very good actor to begin with. DS9 is riddled with him and Kira weeping, sobbing and whining melodramatically, and I just have a short fuse for that after a while. If FBtS had been the first time he flew to pieces, I'd probably have been fine with it. Instead, it was a slightly better example of something that happened far too often.
As for the rest of them, over the top is what comes to mind. Dukat and Weyoun as the cops. Worf as the baseball player. The writers were all OK because they were supposed to be sci-fi writers, who are by default an eccentric lot. It really seemed like the other guys were excited to be out of their normal characters for a change and really wanted to run with it. I can't say that I blame them, but this wasn't the place for it. If this had been a lighthearted episode, it wouldn't have been a problem. I don't think it was intended to be at all. In fact, it was actually quite intense. Realism should have taken priority over enjoying the roles.
-
I think the new movie is an update of " The Trouble With Tribbles. "
The trouble is : THEY'RE ALL KHAN !!
-
So - hypothetically - if they were to "reboot" The Next Generation, who would you cast as the bridge crew ?
Ironically Cumberbatch could play Picard .
Ryan Reynolds could play Riker. But badass Reynolds from Blade Trinity instead of romcom Reynolds.
-
I'd cast David Tennant as Picard for a reboot, not at all sure about the remaining crew.
I just found the Epic Rap Battles of History series on Youtube, specifically the one with Kirk against Columbus. No idea how I hadn't heard about these until now.
-
Tom Hiddleston as Data. :)
-
Ah, FFS. Just cast the Jersey Shore people.
-
Ha! that could work... :)
-
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
OH FUCK OFF
-
Saw the Star Trek trailer in front of The Hobbit on Saturday. Sooo excited about the movie, a very Trekkie scene they showed.
-
Saw the Star Trek trailer in front of The Hobbit on Saturday. Sooo excited about the movie, a very Trekkie scene they showed.
What did you think of ST09, rumby? Because an endorsement like that from you is actually the most encouraging thing I've heard about the movie so far.
-
People who've seen the 9 min preview say it's more "Trek" than the last one.
Nobody will agree with me of course but if Into Darkness is as much fun as ST09 - then I'll be glad when the third film is announced.
My real concern is that once JJ & Co are done with it - that Paramount will immediately "reboot" and just get in any old director with no love of Trek whatsoever.
I don't want it to be like going from Nolan's Dark Knight back to Batman & Robin.
Even though I know most of you think JJ's Star Trek *is* Batman and Robin.
I'd love to see what Joss Whedon would do with it. Firefly wasn't a million miles away from Trek. Even though they were essentially looters :p
-
Saw the Star Trek trailer in front of The Hobbit on Saturday. Sooo excited about the movie, a very Trekkie scene they showed.
What did you think of ST09, rumby? Because an endorsement like that from you is actually the most encouraging thing I've heard about the movie so far.
I actually liked ST09. But, I also shared people's concern about Star Trek Reboot descending into yet another generic CGI space opera.
I don't know how many are aware of the preview they show at the theater, here's the rundown:
WARNING!!!! The follwing contains a
(https://scm-l3.technorati.com/11/01/29/26041/Spoiler-Alert.jpg)!!!!!
What they did was to show an about 5-minute section of the movie. That is, a *contiguous* section. My gf and I actually started wondering whether we were sitting in the wrong theater, it really felt we were going to watch the whole movie.
Either way, the scene is about a volcano erupting on some planet, seemingly endangering a native tribe living around it. The Enterprise is submerged in an ocean or lake somewhere around it, neatly hidden away from the tribe, thus ensuring the Prime Directive.
Spock then beams down to the planet (I think in order to do something to the volcano to calm it down), but the issue arises that they can't get him back out from the volcano without disclosing the existence of the Enterprise to the tribe. Spock then puts the Prime Directive over his own life (in the process quoting the "needs of the many"), essentially committing suicide. That's where the scene cuts off.
-
Yeah I don't mind *reading* about that. But I don't want to see it on the Big Screen until i'm sat in the cinema watching the entire film.
p.s. The Longer Trailer is out today on Apple Trailers.
https://trailers.apple.com/trailers/paramount/startrekintodarkness/
-
Saw the Star Trek trailer in front of The Hobbit on Saturday. Sooo excited about the movie, a very Trekkie scene they showed.
What did you think of ST09, rumby? Because an endorsement like that from you is actually the most encouraging thing I've heard about the movie so far.
I actually liked ST09. But, I also shared people's concern about Star Trek Reboot descending into yet another generic CGI space opera.
I liked it too, I just thought it had a lot of faults that I hope are addressed in the next movie.
From the spoiler, it definitely sounds more Trekky (even if pandering a little bit there). I'm starting to get more optimistic about this movie now, after an initial overreaction to the probable episode basis for the movie.
-
So - hypothetically - if they were to "reboot" The Next Generation, who would you cast as the bridge crew ?
Ironically Cumberbatch could play Picard .
Ryan Reynolds could play Riker. But badass Reynolds from Blade Trinity instead of romcom Reynolds.
Obviously Tom Hardy should play Picard...
-
That would be ironic :lol
" Well you played him once already in a movie - but nobody saw it so it's ok "
-
I really don't get the hate for Nemesis. I didn't find it any worse than some of the other TNG feature films. I mean, obviously First Contact is the one that everyone faps over, but Generations and Insurrection were no better (or worse) than Nemesis (IMO).
-
I really don't get the hate for Nemesis. I didn't find it any worse than some of the other TNG feature films. I mean, obviously First Contact is the one that everyone faps over, but Generations and Insurrection were no better (or worse) than Nemesis (IMO).
I think Nemesis was clearly the worst of them, but not orders of magnitude worse or anything. They all had their faults and strengths, but I do find that the other movies had more charm to make up for the faults.
-
I really don't get the hate for Nemesis. I didn't find it any worse than some of the other TNG feature films. I mean, obviously First Contact is the one that everyone faps over, but Generations and Insurrection were no better (or worse) than Nemesis (IMO).
Insurrection is my all time favorite ST movie. Yes...better than Khan. I find the story line to be emotionally compelling on every level. I do get some people's complaint that it does feel more like a TNG episode than a movie....but it's a fantastic piece of work. They should have NEVER given up on Frakes as a director, especially when you take the popularity of First Contact under consideration.
Nemesis OTOH was just complete and total crap. I honestly can't think of a single scene in that movie that worked. Shinzon was neither an interesting villain, nor did he ever succeed in suspending my disbelief that he was an "alternate Picard"... The entire B4 storyline was forced and stupid. Don't even get me into the problems with the alien world they found him on....the wedding scene...the rape of Troi. Seriously...these scenes to me were on the level of The Room they were so bad. I felt absolutely no compelling empathy for any of the characters....even Troi's rape scene. It was like when Johnny kills himself at the end of The Room. (I suppose if you havn't seen The Room, this makes no sense...but you can look up highlights on YT...it's legendary)
Never in my life have a seen a franchise go from fantastic to horrible with the turn of a single movie.
-
^ but how do you really feel?? :laugh:
-
I always thought it was silly to write off Jadzia for the final season, and I never cared for what they did with Ezri. In retrospect, though, Ezri was an excellent concept. Young, dumb and woefully ill-equipped for her new life. It's a shame they didn't do a better job of writing for her, but still a fine idea. Maybe if they'd done it midway through the series it could have been executed.
-
I always thought it was silly to write off Jadzia for the final season, and I never cared for what they did with Ezri. In retrospect, though, Ezri was an excellent concept. Young, dumb and woefully ill-equipped for her new life. It's a shame they didn't do a better job of writing for her, but still a fine idea. Maybe if they'd done it midway through the series it could have been executed.
I agree with that. They tried to flesh out Ezri, but they just couldn't do a lot in only one season when they had such important storylines to wrap up.
And possibly controversial opinion here-
I didn't like Nicole de Boer's acting at all. She's so forced and over-acted, and her silly facial expressions bug the crap out of me.
-
Only seen two episodes so I can't really comment on her acting. However, she seems like a natural for the character they're trying to put out; see above, young, dumb and ill-equipped. Perhaps when they do start trying to flesh out her character her acting will be an issue, but for now she seems ideal. I also think that part of what they were going for was a shift from sexy to cute, and she seemed to work well for that, being somewhat ditzy and childlike.
-
Oh I get all of that, I just think she felt a bit forced, and it ended up feeling labored and overplayed to me, rather than looking natural. I'm seen her in other things, and it was the same thing. I just don't think she's a particularly great actor, especially for a show like DS9 that had one of the strongest casts of the Trek shows. Maybe in Voyager or Enterprise it wouldn't have stuck out so much. :lol
For the record, I don't think Jadzia was exactly amazing either, but I thought she was at least better despite being a bit of a muddled character.
-
I read something online that could be very interesting / clever if true.
What if John Harrison is merely *based* on Khan & Gary Mitchell ? A brand new character that is genetically altered and has God powers etc ?
This way they could evoke the stories of Khan & Mitchell without actually re-doing old episodes / movies.
I think that this could be a smart move. Simply evoke Wrath of Khan / Where No Man Has Gone Before but make it different enough so it's not a straight
remake. It would be The best of both worlds ( no pun intended ).
-
Jadzia was written off because Terry Farrel was offered the role on Becker and took it instead of resigning. It was a smart move on her part because it offered her a spot with Ted Danson, which had potential of multiple seasons. Either way, she would get at least one season.
...and Blob, Ezri was not overplayed. The producers loved the way Ezri was played, that was what they wanted. Watch The Dead Zone, Nicole DeBoer is a nice actress. Ezri was supposed to highlight the psychological problems joining can cause, and as the season progressed she did show progress towards balancing the minds. DeBoer did as asked. The awkwardness was born from the character, not the actress.
She wasn't an entirely new character, she was Dax. I wish she'd had two seasons instead of one, but by being Dax we already knew the character and had grounding for the multifaceted problems Ezri had. It also highlighted that Jadzia Dax was defined by Dax for much of DS9's run. Early on, Jadzia was nearly absent, the character mostly given depth through Dax, particularly the relationship with Sisko. They made a mistake defining Jadzia as shy and reclusive, Dax provided all or most of the personality. Ezri was the opposite, Dax destroyed a personality and the host had to find a way back. I think that was a nice tactic on their part, it offered something new surrounding Dax that could be worked with over one season.
-
...and Blob, Ezri was not overplayed. The producers loved the way Ezri was played, that was what they wanted. Watch The Dead Zone, Nicole DeBoer is a nice actress. Ezri was supposed to highlight the psychological problems joining can cause, and as the season progressed she did show progress towards balancing the minds. DeBoer did as asked. The awkwardness was born from the character, not the actress.
I know the awkwardness was part of the character, she just did a terrible job of making the awkwardness feel at all natural. I'm far too aware that she's trying to act. She's not a good actress imo.
-
I agree, but truth be told, I don't think many of them are very good actors. Probably the weakest link of the show.
-
Isn't it her job to do what the producers want? If they praise her for capturing their image she accomplished what she was paid to do. If you dislike it, it isnt her fault.
-
Isn't it her job to do what the producers want? If they praise her for capturing their image she accomplished what she was paid to do. If you dislike it, it isnt her fault.
You're assuming that the praise is genuine. Even when the producers think the person isn't doing a great job, they still often praise them in public to save face for the show...
-
They don't have to offer praise at all, much less effusive praise pointing out how her acting of the character was exactly what they wanted.
"I can say that when Nikky walked in to audition, she was exactly what I had in mind, the way she looked, the way she acted, just the whole package was exactly what I saw Ezri Dax to be."
I'm pretty certain I've seen similar quotes from the producers in other sources, but that's from the 7th season dvd set.
-
I've read similar things as well, but just because you're naturally what they're looking for doesn't make you a good actor. She was Ezri, exactly as they wanted her to be, but that doesn't mean that she can bawl, or get pissed off, or swing a bat'leth and have it be believable. I think that's the point we're making. Shatner was Kirk, but nobody ever accused him of being a great actor. Nobody could ever be a better Spock than Nimoy, as he defined the character, but some of his scenes were painful to watch. I think this is generally applicable to most of the ST characters.
For the record, I've only seen one bit of really bad acting out of Ezri, so I'm reserving judgement on her for now. I'm just pointing out that being the perfect actor for a role doesn't make you a good actor.
-
It might not make her a good actress but it does mean she shouldn't get the amount of criticism people have laid on her. She did her job, that's what she's supposed to do. No, she wasn't perfect, but this is weekly television and that's more or less expected on occasion from everyone. I do think she's a nice actress, Ezri was by and large well played on her part and she showed a very different character in Sarah Bannerman. Deep Space Nine and The Dead Zone are both in my top three favourite sci-fi shows (with Moore's BSG), and while she was a late addition to DS9 she was probably the second most prominent cast in The Dead Zone. She really brought a lot to that show. The situation on DS9 was tough for her, joining a main cast in the 7th year as it's wrapping everything up? Everyone else had 6+ seasons to meld with their characters and each other while she went through her trial run. She did fine.
-
If I think she did a below average job, then she deserves the criticism. Simple as that. Merely doing an adequate job does not make one immune from criticism.
The fact she came in late doesn't account for her being a weak actress. Plenty of other characters have come into shows well into their run and gelled well with their character and the cast. The opinion of the dude who hired her during her audition doesn't change what I see on screen. She was maybe "fine" at best, but not great, and well below the rest of the cast imo (except for Michael Dorn. He was terrible).
-
It's not an excuse, just the reality of her situation. While they were all worn in her character had to find the way. On how many shows do we watch the first season trying to shake out characters to find everyone's place? Are all of those actors bad because they don't mesh immediately? The seasoned actors do better, Auberjonois and Brooks came in in stride, most of the rest had shake down periods, Farrell's lasting the longest outside of the bonding with Brooks.
You're being overly harsh on her, she's a nice actress. And the producers opinion during auditions is something the reiterated during the run, that's just the only quote I am aware of being readily available. ...and she was in no way a step down from Farrell.
-
I'm not being overly harsh at all. Do you really think I can't tell the difference between the situation she was in as an actor, and her actual acting abilities? That's just patronizing.
This isn't about her meshing with the characters, or even establishing her character. It's plainly to do with her acting being extremely forced and taking me out of every scene she's in. I've seen her in other shows, and felt exactly the same way about her acting. And as I said, I've seen plenty of shows where actors have come in well into a show's run and succeeded where she failed.
I think I'm just talking to myself at this point, because I'm needing to repeat points I've already made.
-
I'm not patronizing you, I'm disagreeing with you. Of course some actors come in with no problems right away. I can name quite a few instances, too, hers' one... You even criticized Dorn's acting, but he fit in immediately. It isn't necessarily about acting skill, I think think it's more experience and comfort level with the portrayed character/cast. It fits the way life goes, put two quality researchers together and they might get nothing done because they can't find a working rapport, but a couple of people with can learn to bounce ideas off each other and anticipate each other can accomplish a lot with or without being top level researchers. People don't just fit together because they're good at something, that's not how the world works.
-
You're missing my point entirely. I'm not talking about how she fits with the cast. I'm talking about her acting. That is it. You're either getting the two confused, or implying that I'm getting the two confused, but these are two entirely separate points. She is a bad actress. This is not a DS9-specific criticism. Her situation does not change her abilities, nor excuse them.
That is the only point I am making here.
I swear to bosk, if you can't get that point, I'm drawing you picture diagrams in my next post. :lol
-
I got you point entirely, I disagree. Part of her problem was situation and what the producers wanted, you can't write those off completely and say a good actress would always find a way. My contention is how you discount those things, and how well she played Ezri in your opinion doesn't define her skill. Have you watched The Dead Zone?
-
But it's not in what she's playing, it's how she plays it. Every facial expression and hand movement is extremely labored and unnatural. I haven't seen The Dead Zone, but as I said already (and really don't want to have to say for the tenth time), I have seen her in other shows, and it was all the same issues in the exact same manner.
I can discount her situation in DS9 because it is unrelated to the flaws that drag down her scenes.
I'm not going to go around in circles with this. I'll just agree to disagree and leave it alone, even though you can't seem to accept my opinion as valid, when it is.
-
I'm actually agreeing with both of you. I think she both had bad scripts, but also was too weak an actress to salvage it.
To me it doesn't matter, I enjoyed watching her for, err, ulterior motives.
-
" Cumberbatch has to be Khan - whoever heard of 'John Harrison' "
Ummm...
Commander Kruge
Sybok
General Chang
Tolian Soran
Ru 'afo
Praetor Shinzon
Nero.
" Oh - well - If Cumberbatch isn't playing Khan then someone else is - Peter Weller maybe "
No - Peter Weller is playing the CEO of Starfleet.
" No - but if you watch the trailer there's cryo tubes - which are definitely Khan's people - ergo Khan "
Or they're coffins. It's at a funeral after all.
I don't get why people are so desperate for it to be Khan ??? ???
-
To be fair Welshy, you're the only person in this thread talking about it.
-
Welshieeeeee !!!!
(https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lidlhz1kZU1qffhqao1_500.jpg)
-
They don't have to offer praise at all, much less effusive praise pointing out how her acting of the character was exactly what they wanted.
That's not entirely realistic. Whether the person wants to offer praise or not, they may have to at some point.
The people who decided that so-and-so would be the right choice often give praise (even when it is unwarranted) because:
1) They want to make people excited to see the show, so when the new person is on the show they tell everyone how they are awesome and you should watch the show.
2) They want to save face. If I'm the guy who picked a dud, I still want to get a similar job in the future so I don't want to make it seem like I have a history of making bad decisions. So the solution is to make it seem like the decision I made was, in fact, the right choice or make it seem that I would never make a similar bad mistake (or even that someone else was at fault for it).
3) Refusing to answer interview questions about how so-and-so is doing in the show will only be seen as being "They suck but I won't say so publicly." And flat out saying that they suck could be even worse. And doing either of these will run the risk of making people not want to see the show.
-
It's like how every new album of a band is the best they've ever done.
-
What an odd argument. Nicole of all people?
Anyway, as many others have said before, I think ST works best as a TV show instead of a summer blockbuster movie. So I really hope they get back to making tv shows and don't feel the need to focus only on the original crew.
-
Yeah, I would like to see that as well. let's hope the next movie ends up solid so there's enough momentum for such a thing.
On another note, lying in bed with a big cold and can't sleep. Put ST The Motion Picture on, always a good distraction.
-
It's like how every new album of a band is the best they've ever done.
And in certain bands, every new member is the best in the world and the previous members never cut it to begin with (despite previously being the best in the world).
-
Wtf. Have watched that TNG episode many times, and now realized that a young Kirsten Dunst played in it.
-
Isn't that weird when that happens? You're talking about Dark Page, I assume.
-
I noticed it, but I first saw it relatively recently, so I knew of her before I saw the episode.
But it's always weird when you go back to a show/movie, and notice a famous face in there from before they were really famous. I believe Trek has several other similar incidences of the same thing too.
-
The one that always comes to mind is Ashley Judd as Lt. Leffler. I remember seeing that episode when it first aired and thinking that that girl was adorable, and found out she was the actress daughter/sister of the famous C&W duo The Judds. The Judds are history now, but Ashley's doing alright, and is still adorable IMO.
I seem to think that one of the Arquette girls was on an episode, play one of the Q.
-
Famke Janssen (Jean Grey in X-Men) also played in one. And damn hot she was too.
-
Famke Janssen (Jean Grey in X-Men) also played in one. And damn hot she was too.
I haven't seen X-Men, but for me she'll always be Xenia. But I have to agree with you on the rest of that. :tup
-
Here's a question: Do you think they might intentionally do a fixed-length story arc of new ST movies by in the end repairing the modified time line?
-
Here's a question: Do you think they might intentionally do a fixed-length story arc of new ST movies by in the end repairing the modified time line?
No.
New time line = no sense of responsibility and thus more $$$$$.
-
I noticed it, but I first saw it relatively recently, so I knew of her before I saw the episode.
But it's always weird when you go back to a show/movie, and notice a famous face in there from before they were really famous. I believe Trek has several other similar incidences of the same thing too.
I normally get it the other way around. I'll see an episode and realize that a character is somebody already famous, but usually heavily made up. Iggy Pop certainly comes to mind. It's weird when you only have to voice to go on.
Or, just as often, that they're recycling actors from other episodes. The female Q (who wasn't one of the Arquettes) played 3 or 4 other memorable characters, all from different species. Most significantly was Worf's old lady, but also a Vulcan and an Andorian. Again, you'd only notice from the voice.
-
Here's a question: Do you think they might intentionally do a fixed-length story arc of new ST movies by in the end repairing the modified time line?
No.
New time line = no sense of responsibility and thus more $$$$$.
::) ::)
-
The female Q (who wasn't one of the Arquettes) played 3 or 4 other memorable characters, all from different species. Most significantly was Worf's old lady, but also a Vulcan and an Andorian.
Ah, it was Olivia d'Abo who played Amanda Rogers.
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120527192904/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/6/6d/Amanda_rogers.jpg/292px-Amanda_rogers.jpg)
I tend to get Olivia and Miriam d'Abo mixed up with Patricia and Rosanna Aquette. But Olivia didn't play K'Ehleyr. That was Suzie Plakson.
-
Olivia D' Abo is amazingly sexy.
-
True.
-
True.
And British too. I had no idea till a few years ago.
-
d'Abo seems like a French name, although I suppose she could have grown up in Great Britain.
-
d'Abo seems like a French name, although I suppose she could have grown up in Great Britain.
A person on Star Trek who is supposed to be French but is somehow British?
Nah.
-
d'Abo seems like a French name, although I suppose she could have grown up in Great Britain.
A person on Star Trek who is supposed to be French but is somehow British?
Nah.
:rollin
-
Oh you so funny!
-
d'Abo seems like a French name, although I suppose she could have grown up in Great Britain.
A person on Star Trek who is supposed to be French but is somehow British?
Nah.
OH SNAP!! :lol
-
The female Q (who wasn't one of the Arquettes) played 3 or 4 other memorable characters, all from different species. Most significantly was Worf's old lady, but also a Vulcan and an Andorian.
Ah, it was Olivia d'Abo who played Amanda Rogers.
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120527192904/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/6/6d/Amanda_rogers.jpg/292px-Amanda_rogers.jpg)
I tend to get Olivia and Miriam d'Abo mixed up with Patricia and Rosanna Aquette. But Olivia didn't play K'Ehleyr. That was Suzie Plakson.
I wasn't thinking of her as the female Q. Actually, she wasn't even listed as one of the Q in Memory-Alpha. The only female Q listed was Suzie Plakson who was the mother of Q Jr. She's also who I assumed you were thinking was Patricia Arquette.
-
Since Olivia's character had a name other than Q, I bet she'd be listed in Memory Alpha under that name.
...which other Q did we see? We had the main Q, Quinn, the Q who looked over main Q's shoulders from time to time, Q junior and Mrs. Q. Am I missing any?
-
Amanda Rodgers, and her entry does list her as a Q. She's just not in the list of Q characters.
As for your list, if the one looking over the should is Q2, played by Corbin Bernsen, then that should be about it. There's also a listing for a Q Judge, who presumably presided over Q Jr.'s hearing, but I don't recall if he had any lines. There's Colonel Q.
-
Controversial :
I prefer Star Trek Generations to Star Trek First Contact.
-
The female Q (who wasn't one of the Arquettes) played 3 or 4 other memorable characters, all from different species. Most significantly was Worf's old lady, but also a Vulcan and an Andorian.
Ah, it was Olivia d'Abo who played Amanda Rogers.
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120527192904/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/6/6d/Amanda_rogers.jpg/292px-Amanda_rogers.jpg)
I tend to get Olivia and Miriam d'Abo mixed up with Patricia and Rosanna Aquette. But Olivia didn't play K'Ehleyr. That was Suzie Plakson.
I wasn't thinking of her as the female Q. Actually, she wasn't even listed as one of the Q in Memory-Alpha. The only female Q listed was Suzie Plakson who was the mother of Q Jr. She's also who I assumed you were thinking was Patricia Arquette.
I don't even remember another female Q.
Wait... there was that horrible episode where there was a "civil war" among the Q, and there was a female lead. Was that Suzie Plakson? In my (now-corrupted) memory, her voice is the same as K'Ehleyr.
-
Bob, she's from Voyager when Q wanted to have a child.
She's the child's mother.
-
Which I believe was the horrible civil war episode, as well. She did at least call Janeway a dog, though. :lol And while the episode was pretty silly, the follow up with Aunt Kathy and Q Jr. was pretty good.
Controversial :
I prefer Star Trek Generations to Star Trek First Contact.
They're both pretty horribly flawed, but I think FC is still better. In retrospect, Insurrection might be better than both of them, though. Stupid villains, but I don't guess they're actually any worse than the Borg queen or Lursa/Betor.
-
Generations just feels grand to me. It has that awesome score. It's the first big screen outing for TNG and it's chock full of emotional moments.
-
Generations just feels grand to me. It has that awesome score. It's the first big screen outing for TNG and it's chock full of emotional moments.
I really like the beginning of the movie. It just falls apart at the Nexus story line. There's WAY too many random illogical plot holes with the Nexus as well as Malcolm's plan to get into it. I think if they had re-thought the story line and made it a bit more....logical, it could have been amazing.
Also, even with all of that, I wish they put in the ending they hoped to (though I'm aware of why they didn't).
-
Controversial :
I prefer Star Trek Generations to Star Trek First Contact.
Watched both over the weekend and First Contact is the far superior movie of the 2.
-
Controversial :
I prefer Star Trek Generations to Star Trek First Contact.
Watched both over the weekend and First Contact is the far superior movie of the 2.
Yep.
Both of them don't really make a lick of sense, but I found it much easier to ignore in FC. And while the Queen was kinda lame, the Borg were still pretty great.
-
I don't *love* any of the movies, but I did really like the ending of Undiscovered Country. First Contact just felt like an extra-long episode, and I had no problem with that.
-
I don't *love* any of the movies, but I did really like the ending of Undiscovered Country. First Contact just felt like an extra-long episode, and I had no problem with that.
....first contact felt like a long episode?
Do you mean Insurrection?
-
I didn't mean that in a bad way. And no, I've never seen Insurrection. I've seen Wrath, Search for Spock, First Contact, Generations, Undiscovered Country, Nemesis, and the reboot.
-
I didn't mean that in a bad way. And no, I've never seen Insurrection. I've seen Wrath, Search for Spock, First Contact, Generations, Undiscovered Country, Nemesis, and the reboot.
Well the major complaint for Insurrection is that it felt like a long episode. However you're the first I've ever seen say that about First Contact. I mean.....it was huge in scale and was just as big if not bigger than any of the other movies.
I dunno, I know you didn't mean it in a bad way, but I still have no idea how you see it as a long episode.
Don't get me wrong, I would love for episodes of TNG to be half as epic as First Contact.
-
I didn't get the feeling of it being epic, but again, not a complaint. I liked what I saw and will gladly see it again. And perhaps my Trek movie repertoire will tell you a thing or two about my previous experience with that "universe." I also don't watch a whole lot of TNG (I've seen maybe a season's worth of episodes); I'm mostly a TOS man.
-
Generations just feels grand to me. It has that awesome score. It's the first big screen outing for TNG and it's chock full of emotional moments.
I really like the beginning of the movie. It just falls apart at the Nexus story line. There's WAY too many random illogical plot holes with the Nexus as well as Malcolm's plan to get into it. I think if they had re-thought the story line and made it a bit more....logical, it could have been amazing.
Also, even with all of that, I wish they put in the ending they hoped to (though I'm aware of why they didn't).
What was the original ending going to be?
-
Generations just feels grand to me. It has that awesome score. It's the first big screen outing for TNG and it's chock full of emotional moments.
I really like the beginning of the movie. It just falls apart at the Nexus story line. There's WAY too many random illogical plot holes with the Nexus as well as Malcolm's plan to get into it. I think if they had re-thought the story line and made it a bit more....logical, it could have been amazing.
Also, even with all of that, I wish they put in the ending they hoped to (though I'm aware of why they didn't).
What was the original ending going to be?
Now keep in mind it's been a while since I read this so I might be remembering it incorrectly. I believe they wanted to have Kirks funeral with Spock, McCoy and Scotty there, with Spock feeling intense emotions and McCoy and Scotty having to walk him in.
-
I noticed it, but I first saw it relatively recently, so I knew of her before I saw the episode.
But it's always weird when you go back to a show/movie, and notice a famous face in there from before they were really famous. I believe Trek has several other similar incidences of the same thing too.
I normally get it the other way around. I'll see an episode and realize that a character is somebody already famous, but usually heavily made up. Iggy Pop certainly comes to mind. It's weird when you only have to voice to go on.
Or, just as often, that they're recycling actors from other episodes. The female Q (who wasn't one of the Arquettes) played 3 or 4 other memorable characters, all from different species. Most significantly was Worf's old lady, but also a Vulcan and an Andorian. Again, you'd only notice from the voice.
I'm pretty good with spotting people like that (I kid you not, every single show we watch on TV, I'll point out some random person who was in one episode of Star Trek or some other scifi show :lol ).
Some actors just can't hide no matter what you do. Like the guy who played Martok. He was in another episode of DS9 as a changeling they bring back to the station. His voice is too distinctive. Similarly, Tony Todd is always easy to spot by his voice, whether he's playing a Klingon, Hirogen, or human.
-
Speaking of Tony Todd, as much as I enjoyed him as Kern, I don't think any work he's ever done at all was as good as playing older Jake.
-
I rewatched that episode only recently, and that's far and away his best Trek performance. They cast that really well for such an important character.
And having Tony Todd and Avery Brooks side by side was pretty epic.
-
I rewatched that episode only recently, and that's far and away his best Trek performance. They cast that really well for such an important character.
And having Tony Todd and Avery Brooks side by side was pretty epic.
I think it was someones daughter playing the visiting girl too. Odo maybe? Hm.
-
The dude who played Garak, apparently (just checked on memory alpha). I never knew that!
-
The dude who played Garak, apparently (just checked on memory alpha). I never knew that!
Damnit, Garak. My memory is slipping in my not old age.
-
Generations just feels grand to me. It has that awesome score. It's the first big screen outing for TNG and it's chock full of emotional moments.
I really like the beginning of the movie. It just falls apart at the Nexus story line. There's WAY too many random illogical plot holes with the Nexus as well as Malcolm's plan to get into it. I think if they had re-thought the story line and made it a bit more....logical, it could have been amazing.
Also, even with all of that, I wish they put in the ending they hoped to (though I'm aware of why they didn't).
What was the original ending going to be?
Now keep in mind it's been a while since I read this so I might be remembering it incorrectly. I believe they wanted to have Kirks funeral with Spock, McCoy and Scotty there, with Spock feeling intense emotions and McCoy and Scotty having to walk him in.
That would've been cool. Instead, Picard buries him under a pile of rocks on some God-forsaken planet and... do we even get some kind of memorial or service? I don't remember one.
-
We don't. He buried him and just kind of moved on.
-
Yep, nothin'. Totally crappy send-off for the big Trek captain of over 25 years.
-
Wow, never really thought about that before, but that's seriously lame.
-
Nah. From a movie standpoint a funeral would have been cheesy. Killing Kirk already seemed like a plot device to sell tickets. I'm cool with leaving the whole thing understated. From the historical aspect, presumably there was already a huge sendoff after the incident on the Enterprise-B.
It would be interesting to know if Piccard even told anybody about it, though. He'd been presumed dead for 75 years, so he might have decided to leave it alone.
-
Nah. From a movie standpoint a funeral would have been cheesy. Killing Kirk already seemed like a plot device to sell tickets. I'm cool with leaving the whole thing understated. From the historical aspect, presumably there was already a huge sendoff after the incident on the Enterprise-B.
It would be interesting to know if Piccard even told anybody about it, though. He'd been presumed dead for 75 years, so he might have decided to leave it alone.
A funeral may have been cheesy, although I think the send-off was a bit *too* low key considering how big that moment was in Trek history. I think Kirk deserved to have a bigger moment (and had more connection to the Enterprise itself) than just a lame fight that resulted in a bridge falling on him.
-
Nah. From a movie standpoint a funeral would have been cheesy. Killing Kirk already seemed like a plot device to sell tickets. I'm cool with leaving the whole thing understated. From the historical aspect, presumably there was already a huge sendoff after the incident on the Enterprise-B.
It would be interesting to know if Piccard even told anybody about it, though. He'd been presumed dead for 75 years, so he might have decided to leave it alone.
A funeral may have been cheesy, although I think the send-off was a bit *too* low key considering how big that moment was in Trek history. I think Kirk deserved to have a bigger moment (and had more connection to the Enterprise itself) than just a lame fight that resulted in a bridge falling on him.
Well..........he died never having left the bridge.
.....get it?
-
:lolpalm: Terrible.
-
Even if they wanted to keep the terrible time travel aspect to it, one idea could have been that Kirk really did die on the Enterprise B, but like Guinan he left an echo or whatever in the nexus. That way he can Picard could have their whole horse scene, but he tells Picard he can't leave cause he's already dead and then Picard has to go back alone.
-
I thought the funeral was solemn and dignified. And considering the media attention he got at the beginning of the movie, the memorial after his first death would have been ridiculously over the top.
Wonder if Piccard even informed Spock. "Dear Spock. So it turns out that Jim Kirk has been alive all this time. We had breakfast together just the other day. Sadly, he's now dead again. Hope you're enjoying Romulus. JLP"
-
I thought the funeral was solemn and dignified. And considering the media attention he got at the beginning of the movie, the memorial after his first death would have been ridiculously over the top.
Wonder if Piccard even informed Spock. "Dear Spock. So it turns out that Jim Kirk has been alive all this time. We had breakfast together just the other day. Sadly, he's now dead again. Hope you're enjoying Romulus. JLP"
I don't think the problem with his funeral was that it was low key, but I think they could have spent a little more time on it, and most importantly give it a bit more emotion. It was kind of flat for me.
But a big Spock style funeral would have detracted even more from what was supposed to be a TNG movie, and ending with a grand sendoff for Kirk would have been a slap in the face to the TNG cast, so I guess they took the right approach. It was the execution that I thought wasn't as good as it could have been.
Although in a perfect world, the TOS cast wouldn't have appeared at all in Generations. They had a good sendoff with TUC, and had no place in Generations at all.
-
Although in a perfect world, the TOS cast wouldn't have appeared at all in Generations. They had a good sendoff with TUC, and had no place in Generations at all.
Agree with this. Nimoy opted out because there was no place for Spock in it. They had scenes and dialog for him, but it was generic, and he only wants to be Spock if he can genuinely add something. Shame the others didn't feel that way, but I suppose I can understand their reasons. I figure Doohan and Koenig were interested in a paycheck, and Shatner got a good role, so he didn't care.
-
I'm glad Nimoy is a bit more selective with his Trek participation. He would have been wasted in that movie.
I wonder if there would have been any legitimate chance of Shatner being in Trek 11 alongside or instead of Nimoy had Shatner not taken part in Generations and had his character killed.
-
I'm glad Nimoy is a bit more selective with his Trek participation. He would have been wasted in that movie.
I wonder if there would have been any legitimate chance of Shatner being in Trek 11 alongside or instead of Nimoy had Shatner not taken part in Generations and had his character killed.
I don't see how without MAJOR re-writing of trek history.
I mean Spock was actually alive, even if Kirk didn't die in Generations.....he'd have died of old age long before.
-
I'm glad Nimoy is a bit more selective with his Trek participation. He would have been wasted in that movie.
I wonder if there would have been any legitimate chance of Shatner being in Trek 11 alongside or instead of Nimoy had Shatner not taken part in Generations and had his character killed.
I don't see how without MAJOR re-writing of trek history.
I mean Spock was actually alive, even if Kirk didn't die in Generations.....he'd have died of old age long before.
Sure, but they've come up with contrived excuses before, such as with Scotty in TNG, and getting Kirk into Generations, so they could have done it. But with him actually killed off, it would have been super fanwanky and forced to try and explain how an older alive Kirk shows up, and would have gone against what the movie was about.
Was just a thought anyway. I wasn't really thinking through the logistics of how.
-
I wasn't really thinking through the logistics of how.
True.
-
Shatner was actually written into the original script...but they decided not to film it. It involved Spock having in his possession, a pocket hologram of Shatner's Kirk that he had received as a gift. (a b-day present or some such)
-
Shatner was actually written into the original script...but they decided not to film it. It involved Spock having in his possession, a pocket hologram of Shatner's Kirk that he had received as a gift. (a b-day present or some such)
Yea, but it would have been an 80 year old Shatner, which Generations would kind of ruled out. Good thing they didn't film it.
-
Sounds tacky as hell anyway tbh. Very "Obi-Wan, you´re our last hope".
-
The whole scene´s script:
https://trekmovie.com/2011/05/01/bob-orci-shatner-scene-not-included-in-star-trek-2009-because-of-fan-pandering-poll-was-it/
-
I didn't mean that in a bad way. And no, I've never seen Insurrection. I've seen Wrath, Search for Spock, First Contact, Generations, Undiscovered Country, Nemesis, and the reboot.
You haven't watched The Voyage Home?
-
The whole scene´s script:
https://trekmovie.com/2011/05/01/bob-orci-shatner-scene-not-included-in-star-trek-2009-because-of-fan-pandering-poll-was-it/
I hadn't read it in a long time. I actually think the scene would have worked quite well as it is written.
-
That was...surprisingly well-written. I don't think Pine's Kirk is close enough to Shatner's Kirk for us to have that sort of connection between the two I think they wanted us to feel though.
-
I think Shatner is also simply not looking the part anymore. Nimoy's face is kinda staying the same in its gnarliness, so that still worked.
-
BONES
… Same ship, different day.
Heh heh.
-
I think Shatner is also simply not looking the part anymore. Nimoy's face is kinda staying the same in its gnarliness, so that still worked.
If they were trying to pass off 80 year old Shatner as a pre-Generations Kirk, I think there would have to be some CG involved, or a hell of a lot of makeup. :lol
-
In my mind there's two Shatners anyway; the original Kirk Shatner, and the Price Negotiator who impersonated Kirk. Same with Scotty, there's also two of them.
-
In my mind there's two Shatners anyway; the original Kirk Shatner, and the Price Negotiator who impersonated Kirk. Same with Scotty, there's also two of them.
Absolutely.
-
Has there been any talk of old cast participation for the new movie? I'm almost thinking they can't pass Shatner a second time.
-
Has there been any talk of old cast participation for the new movie? I'm almost thinking they can't pass Shatner a second time.
I haven't heard any word of it, and I think we would have by now. I think they're trying to do their own thing and avoid clinging onto the past.
I know Leonard Nimoy was on the set, but he said he wasn't part of the movie. That's the only old cast member I'd expect to return, given his involvement in the last movie.
-
Why would they need any old members? I just honestly don't see their purpose at this point other than "Hey, look kids, it's that one guy!".
Unless of course you want to send someone more obscure like Daniels there in efforts to change the time line.
That would be interesting.
-
Oh, I know, but on the other hand Shatner was already miffed that he didn´t get to be in the recent one. And in terms of age of the actors, it´s hard to judge until when they will be around.
-
Oh, I know, but on the other hand Shatner was already miffed that he didn´t get to be in the recent one. And in terms of age of the actors, it´s hard to judge until when they will be around.
So? I hate to say it, but who cares if it bothers him? His career is fine as it is. Being in the new Trek movie can't possibly change anything in the slightest bit for the fans, him, his career....anything.
-
They should make him the computer voice, then we could have Kirk talking to Kirk. Then they could redo that story where the computer has a crush on Kirk.
-
Even if they wanted to keep the terrible time travel aspect to it, one idea could have been that Kirk really did die on the Enterprise B, but like Guinan he left an echo or whatever in the nexus. That way he can Picard could have their whole horse scene, but he tells Picard he can't leave cause he's already dead and then Picard has to go back alone.
Or they could've just had Guinan come along and have no Kirk plot hole. Her whole "I can't come along because I'm just an echo" is totally shattered by Kirk's "I'm already dead so I'm definitely just an echo."
-
Even if they wanted to keep the terrible time travel aspect to it, one idea could have been that Kirk really did die on the Enterprise B, but like Guinan he left an echo or whatever in the nexus. That way he can Picard could have their whole horse scene, but he tells Picard he can't leave cause he's already dead and then Picard has to go back alone.
Or they could've just had Guinan come along and have no Kirk plot hole. Her whole "I can't come along because I'm just an echo" is totally shattered by Kirk's "I'm already dead so I'm definitely just an echo."
That would have been more awful than what they did.
-
I don't get the hate for that plot element, I thought it was pretty good.
An interesting question though is, what about Soran? Was he yanked back out of the Nexus through the time travel?
-
I don't get the hate for that plot element, I thought it was pretty good.
An interesting question though is, what about Soran? Was he yanked back out of the Nexus through the time travel?
It's convoluted so who knows? I think he's still supposed to be there since he got in.
-
Which I guess is cool since it's up to the audience whether Soran got what he deserved.
-
Which I guess is cool since it's up to the audience whether Soran got what he deserved.
That's another flaw with Generations. The only thing making you care about Soran is how cool Malcolm is. He has a few very good lines and the rest is strictly up to his acting and presence. He wasn't a well written villain. Had he been played by a less awesome actor, he wouldn't have cared one way or another what happened to him.
-
Even if they wanted to keep the terrible time travel aspect to it, one idea could have been that Kirk really did die on the Enterprise B, but like Guinan he left an echo or whatever in the nexus. That way he can Picard could have their whole horse scene, but he tells Picard he can't leave cause he's already dead and then Picard has to go back alone.
Or they could've just had Guinan come along and have no Kirk plot hole. Her whole "I can't come along because I'm just an echo" is totally shattered by Kirk's "I'm already dead so I'm definitely just an echo."
That would have been more awful than what they did.
I disagree. If they had used her, perhaps the movie wouldn't have turned into an idiotic action movie with no plot and then they'd have to work out something smarter.
-
I agree that it should have done something smarter. But I don't see how Picard and Guinan fighting Malcolm is any less insane.
-
I agree that it should have done something smarter. But I don't see how Picard and Guinan fighting Malcolm is any less insane.
I'm saying that if it'd been her maybe it wouldn't have been an action movie with all the stupid, pointless fighting that no one cares about.
-
I agree that it should have done something smarter. But I don't see how Picard and Guinan fighting Malcolm is any less insane.
I'm saying that if it'd been her maybe it wouldn't have been an action movie with all the stupid, pointless fighting that no one cares about.
To be honest....at that point, what else could they have done? Talked it out? I mean unless you re-wrote the whole Klingon fight, then the Enterprise is still about to crash and they can't do a whole lot else.
-
I'm not suggesting I can write a better script, btw. I just know there is one to be made out there.
-
I'm not suggesting I can write a better script, btw. I just know there is one to be made out there.
Oh I totally agree.
-
Although I think that demolishing a shoehorned plot device that makes a huge hole is a start.
-
Although I think that demolishing a shoehorned plot device that makes a huge hole is a start.
Well then let's either get rid of the Nexus or completely change what it is.
Speaking of which, I'm curious about something. They blew up the amagosa (or whatever) star, right? I just don't see how the shock wave of its destruction makes the nexus change course BEFORE it destroys the planet. I just don't see how it can reach the Nexus which is further away before it hits the planet.
-
Doesn't the explosion create a black hole/star that then increases the gravity towards things around there and conceivably starts moving things nearby as soon as the explosion starts?
I'd have to watch that part again to refresh my memory and this movies sucks too much to try that.
-
Doesn't the explosion create a black hole/star that then increases the gravity towards things around there and conceivably starts moving things nearby as soon as the explosion starts?
I'd have to watch that part again to refresh my memory and this movies sucks too much to try that.
No it creates a shockwave going outward. Which is why the planet is totally destroyed and not sucked into a hole.
Remember? Same thing that happened to the space station earlier in the movie.
-
Speaking of which, I'm curious about something. They blew up the amagosa (or whatever) star, right? I just don't see how the shock wave of its destruction makes the nexus change course BEFORE it destroys the planet. I just don't see how it can reach the Nexus which is further away before it hits the planet.
For one thing, I think you're referring to the Veridian star. The Amagosa star didn't destroy any planets that we saw. Anyhoo, I think the point was that it wasn't the shockwave that moved the ribbon, but the change in gravity. In stellar cartography they figured it out because Kelsey Grammer's ship had to change course because of the gravitational effects caused by the destruction of the Amagosian star.
As for the bigger issues of the plot silliness, their biggest failing was having Guinan there to explain everything. That echo bullshit made no sense. As for the rest of it, I suppose it just requires accepting that despite how difficult it is to get into the thing, you can leave anytime you want just by wishing for it. Doesn't bother me any more than the rest of it.
-
Yea, sorry I got the stars mixed up. I'll have to beat myself for that one.
...Kelsey Grammar? He was in that time loop episode, not the movie. Unless that ship was called the U.S.S. Frasier or something.
-
It was the Bozeman.
-
It was the Bozeman.
DAMN YOUR MEMORY!
-
I still have Generations on my HDD. Since everybody is discussing it's suckiness, I figured I'd watch the relevant bits so I could converse intelligently.
-
I still have Generations on my HDD. Since everybody is discussing it's suckiness, I figured I'd watch the relevant bits so I could converse intelligently.
Oh good. I haven't seen it over a year. I was doing a major ST rewatch but after Enterprise, ToS (well most of it) all of the ToS movies, all of TNG and the first several seasons of DS9 and first season of Voyager I just got burned out and stopped.
-
...Kelsey Grammar? He was in that time loop episode, not the movie. Unless that ship was called the U.S.S. Frasier or something.
I caught that episode on TV just a couple of days ago. Great episode. I wish it was called the USS Frasier. Or the USS Grammer.
And I have all of the movies on DVD, and got Generations most recently, so it hasn't been that long since I've seen it.
I think there's a lot of good in the movie that gets lost among the bad. I think it does the best job of the TNG movies at capturing the character dynamic of the series. It's a shame the Nexus was ultimately just a plot device to get Kirk to their present day for no reason, because I think there was a lot of potential there.
-
Yea, I think Generations had some really great moments. I just think the story of the Nexus really brought it down. Had they...done something else it could have been great.
-
I like the idea of the Nexus being this place so amazing that this guy has spent a lifetime trying to get back to it at any cost, but the main problems were that the ability to leave at any point in time opened up too many plot holes, and I recall it was supposed to be so blissful that it was nearly impossible to leave, and yet I didn't feel any struggle there for Kirk and Picard at all.
Also as a side note, one of Picard's kids (grandkids?) was the kid from Seinfeld in the hospital that Kramer promised the home-runs. I actually spotted that on my first watch. :lol
-
I like the idea of the Nexus being this place so amazing that this guy has spent a lifetime trying to get back to it at any cost, but the main problems were that the ability to leave at any point in time opened up too many plot holes, and I recall it was supposed to be so blissful that it was nearly impossible to leave, and yet I didn't feel any struggle there for Kirk and Picard at all.
Also as a side note, one of Picard's kids (grandkids?) was the kid from Seinfeld in the hospital that Kramer promised the home-runs. I actually spotted that on my first watch. :lol
All very good points. I still like the idea of Kirk not leaving that I had earlier.
-
I like the idea of the Nexus being this place so amazing that this guy has spent a lifetime trying to get back to it at any cost, but the main problems were that the ability to leave at any point in time opened up too many plot holes, and I recall it was supposed to be so blissful that it was nearly impossible to leave, and yet I didn't feel any struggle there for Kirk and Picard at all.
I didn't have a problem with that at all.
I kindof viewed the Nexus more like an addiction. It's not that you can't leave. ANYONE can leave at any time...in theory. Just like any addict can put down the needle at any moment...but most don't. Some (like maybe the Captain(s) of the Enterprise) are just of a much stronger will than most. Just like there are those few that *can* just put down the needle and walk away...albeit after a sufficient inner struggle.
-
I like the idea of the Nexus being this place so amazing that this guy has spent a lifetime trying to get back to it at any cost, but the main problems were that the ability to leave at any point in time opened up too many plot holes, and I recall it was supposed to be so blissful that it was nearly impossible to leave, and yet I didn't feel any struggle there for Kirk and Picard at all.
I didn't have a problem with that at all.
I kindof viewed the Nexus more like an addiction. It's not that you can't leave. ANYONE can leave at any time...in theory. Just like any addict can put down the needle at any moment...but most don't. Some (like maybe the Captain(s) of the Enterprise) are just of a much stronger will than most. Just like there are those few that *can* just put down the needle and walk away...albeit after a sufficient inner struggle.
I think that's a pretty apt description of the effect of the Nexus, but I feel like for the sake of the story that addiction needed to be presented as stronger with Kirk and Picard. It gets a bit tiring when the captains are too perfect and immune to everything, and I think there needed to be more struggle to sell the idea.
That one wasn't a major issue for me, but I do think they made it a bit too easy for Kirk/Picard to pull themselves away from the perfect world of the Nexus.
-
I didn't have too much of a problem with the nexus thing, although like I said, the echo of Guinan bullshit was pretty bad. Something that does trouble me is why Kirk only just arrived there. I suppose that JLP might have just gone backwards to the point where kirk had only just gotten in, but isn't that kind of a dick move? So was talking him into leaving. The guy died once, only to find himself stuck in a perpetual paradise, so let's take him out of paradise and have him die a second time to leave him under a pile of rocks somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
-
I didn't have too much of a problem with the nexus thing, although like I said, the echo of Guinan bullshit was pretty bad. Something that does trouble me is why Kirk only just arrived there. I suppose that JLP might have just gone backwards to the point where kirk had only just gotten in, but isn't that kind of a dick move? So was talking him into leaving. The guy died once, only to find himself stuck in a perpetual paradise, so let's take him out of paradise and have him die a second time to leave him under a pile of rocks somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
I agree with all of that. I guess the Nexus is supposed exist outside of time if it can allow you to leave at any point in time, so I guess there isn't supposed to be any distinction between when Picard entered, and when Kirk entered, although that would raise a lot of temporal plotholes to the idea of the Nexus too. Picard really should have felt that Kirk deserved the happy ending, and insisted he could handle the situation on his own.
The Nexus was just a plot device to do what they wanted to do, and I think it's something you have to just accept as a viewer to enjoy it. At least, that's how I see it.
-
Here's a problem I had as well. Data (I believe it was) said that Malcolm couldn't just fly into it with a ship because all ships which get near it get destroyed, which is true.
However they also clearly stated that Guinan and Malcolm were in the nexus before being beamed away....while they were on a ship. So clearly they can enter the nexus on a ship before the ship gets destroyed.
-
They didn't say that ships were destroyed instantly. Both of the ships in the nexus were eventually destroyed.
-
So the Nexus is a McGuffin
-
They didn't say that ships were destroyed instantly. Both of the ships in the nexus were eventually destroyed.
I know, I said that. But so what? Why would he care if his ship is destroyed if he's in the Nexus by that point?
-
Now that we've ripped one of my favourite films to bits - How about we give Nemesis what's coming to it ?
It's a blatant Wrath Of Khan rip-off !!
-
Now that we've ripped one of my favourite films to bits - How about we give Nemesis what's coming to it ?
It's a blatant Wrath Of Khan rip-off !!
Nemesis is by far the greatest Trek film ever.
Sorry, just got used to disagreeing with you in this thread.
-
Why stop now ?
JJ's Star Trek > The Phantom Menace.
-
Why stop now ?
JJ's Star Trek > The Phantom Menace.
Nope, Phantom Menace is the greatest film in hist...........okay I can't even do that one.
Yea, Nemesis was pretty terrible. However, and I guess I'm alone in this one, but I really was hit hard by the death of Data and the crews reaction to it.
-
The whole film was kinda leading up to it though.
-
The whole film was kinda leading up to it though.
So? Doesn't have to be shocking to have an impact.
-
I'm curious about something. They blew up the amagosa (or whatever) star, right? I just don't see how the shock wave of its destruction makes the nexus change course BEFORE it destroys the planet. I just don't see how it can reach the Nexus which is further away before it hits the planet.
I see people answered this, but even so that would hardly be the biggest violation of science in that scene, though. They butchered the speed of light, why worry about how other things interacted? They see the sun less than 15 seconds after a pretty slow missile takes off. It should even have gotten out of the atmosphere, yet, and it has no warp drive. Even if it did get there that fast we wouldn't see it for awhile. If the Sun exploded we wouldn't know for over 8 minutes. I would assume the effects of a changing gravity don't outpace light, so really nothing should have happened, he was too late.. It also seems entirely bogus that the nexus would be traveling through the atmosphere at so slow a speed. At that speed relative to an orbiting planet (in any direction), at most the Enterprise B incident must have occurred in the outer fringes of the Veridian system. OK, maybe it doesn't travel at a constant speed, I don't know.
Star Trek is not hard sci-fi, and that scene is so unbelievable you just kind of have to shrug it all off. ...it isn't even a sci-fi that sets impossible rules and follows them, for that matter.
-
It wasn't a matter of hard science, just logic. It would be like hearing an explosion before the bomb goes off.
However if you say the gravity would be affected quicker than the shockwave hitting the planet, I'm cool with that. I thought they meant that the shockwave hit the nexus before it hit the planet, which (science or not) is just too illogical.
-
Why stop now ?
JJ's Star Trek > The Phantom Menace.
Nope, Phantom Menace is the greatest film in hist...........okay I can't even do that one.
Yea, Nemesis was pretty terrible. However, and I guess I'm alone in this one, but I really was hit hard by the death of Data and the crews reaction to it.
I was hit pretty hard bit this too.....
I was hit by how completely freaking wooden and anticlimactic and clumsy the entire thing was handled. So many things about that COULD have been great, and it ended up just being forced and stupid. Totally screwed the pooch on that one IMO.
-
They didn't say that ships were destroyed instantly. Both of the ships in the nexus were eventually destroyed.
I know, I said that. But so what? Why would he care if his ship is destroyed if he's in the Nexus by that point?
I took it the way that it was just too much of a gamble. There would have been a good chance you'd die before getting in.
-
Wtf. Have watched that TNG episode many times, and now realized that a young Kirsten Dunst played in it.
Hahah, I said the same thing at the start of this thread.
-
ST:TNG Season 2 Blooper Reel (https://youtu.be/7_nVEm5Yc3c)
LOL
-
Something I noticed the other day. On a shuttlecraft control panel, it only takes two button presses to bring up HMS Pinafore. Those Starfleet engineers certainly know how to organize.
-
Something I noticed the other day. On a shuttlecraft control panel, it only takes two button presses to bring up HMS Pinafore. Those Starfleet engineers certainly know how to organize.
:lol Maybe Picard had it on speed-dial.
That's probably one of the only times they do something like that without a voice command. Usually they only handle the critical stuff with the controls.
-
Music seems critical to me.
-
ST:TNG Season 2 Blooper Reel (https://youtu.be/7_nVEm5Yc3c)
LOL
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/picard_zps30c13875.jpg)
-
Wesley's were the only ones that really made me laugh. He seems like a pretty funny guy. The other ones just botched their lines and made stupid faces about it. And Dorn seems like a pain in the ass.
-
Just watched The Undiscovered Country. Awesome movie of course, but Sulu knowing the location of the conference was quite the plot hole. Why would he know, if Lt. Valeris didn't even know?
-
Just watched The Undiscovered Country. Awesome movie of course, but Sulu knowing the location of the conference was quite the plot hole. Why would he know, if Lt. Valeris didn't even know?
Maybe because she was on the Enterprise and they knew she was in too much of a dangerous position to know.
But since the conference wasn't exactly cloak and dagger, Sulu may have been able to find out.
-
Hmm yeah, I guess :lol
I was reading the trivia section in IMDB and read that the Federation president's office is a redress of Ten Forward. Had to bring back up the movie and check it out.
-
Hmm yeah, I guess :lol
I was reading the trivia section in IMDB and read that the Federation president's office is a redress of Ten Forward. Had to bring back up the movie and check it out.
What I found interesting is that there were Romulans there. I have no idea what Romulans would have been doing with the Federation.
-
The Romulans were there to try and destroy the Klingons. They were part of the conspiracy gang. As an interested third party in the shifting powers it probably wouldn't have seemed odd to anyone that they would want to at least be involved, especially if they all had active diplomatic relations.
-
The Romulans were there to try and destroy the Klingons. They were part of the conspiracy gang. As an interested third party in the shifting powers it's not shocking they would want to at least be involved.
From the conspiracy point of view sure, but they were there out in the open. Didn't anyone else in the Federation wonder why the Romulans went from total isolation to having ambassadors being fully involved in the Federation?
The president didn't seem to find it odd.
-
I edited what I said, there, which would be my partial response. No, it just seemed like at the time they had diplomatic relations and with the shifting balance of power in the region it probably wouldn't be surprising they wanted to be actively involved.
Kind of just needing to be close to your enemies, like the red phone for the US and Soviet. If it could get ugly quickly, best to having everyone cooperating.
-
Just watched The Undiscovered Country. Awesome movie of course, but Sulu knowing the location of the conference was quite the plot hole. Why would he know, if Lt. Valeris didn't even know?
Maybe because she was on the Enterprise and they knew she was in too much of a dangerous position to know.
But since the conference wasn't exactly cloak and dagger, Sulu may have been able to find out.
Since she was one of the main orchestrators of the conspiracy, wouldn't you think Odo or Sisko's dad would have tipped her off? Honestly, though, while I enjoyed the movie I thought she was a terrible character and the source of a ton of problems with the plot. This is just another for the list.
-
I don't think she was one of the main one's, just an important tool. Her job was to screw up Kirk, nothing more.
-
:lol
Yeah, Odo was a much better changling back in the day. I think Auberjonis was completely cut from the movie, though. He's only on the directors cut dvd, they took the extra scenes back out for the blu-ray.
-
:lol
Yeah, Odo was a much better changling back in the day. I think Auberjonis was completely cut from the movie, though. He's only on the directors cut dvd, they took the extra scenes back out for the blu-ray.
Yea, them editing the blu rays was really annoying.
-
I'd forgotten those were extra scenes when I played the blu-ray, I thought was going crazy for awhile. Those scenes really didn't add much, though, made sense they were cut. Thinking the sniper was a real Klingon felt more right to me, anyways.
-
Honestly, though, while I enjoyed the movie I thought she was a terrible character and the source of a ton of problems with the plot. This is just another for the list.
Valeris is my biggest problem (my only significant problem, really) with the film. Consider though that some people wanted Saavik in that role, but they, or others, felt it would be harder for the audience to buy her as a conspirator/traitor.
Wait.. who the hell is Odo, and what cuts are we talking about? I have the Director's Cut DVD and that is the only verison I am familiar with (saw it in the theater but couldn't recall any changes over that long a period)
-
I didn't know he wasn't in the theatrical release. I saw it when it came out, but couldn't point out differences between the two versions.
And Valeris's role was to assassinate Gorkon, as well as frame Kirk. I'd say that makes her a main gal.
-
Honestly, though, while I enjoyed the movie I thought she was a terrible character and the source of a ton of problems with the plot. This is just another for the list.
Valeris is my biggest problem (my only significant problem, really) with the film. Consider though that some people wanted Saavik in that role, but they, or others, felt it would be harder for the audience to buy her as a conspirator/traitor.
Wait.. who the hell is Odo, and what cuts are we talking about? I have the Director's Cut DVD and that is the only verison I am familiar with (saw it in the theater but couldn't recall any changes over that long a period)
The Klingon that was killed trying to kill the President turns out to be Odo (well same actor playing a different role).
-
That's only in the director's cut. Auberjonis played the admiral presenting the plans to invade Klingon space to get Kirk and McCoy back earlier in the directors cut, too. ...Admiral West, I think.
-
Nick Meyer directed II and VI and wrote IV.
I dunno why he didn't do more - he obviously knows what he's doing !
I wish he'd directed Nemesis instead of Stuart Baird - who was just an editor ffs.
Hell - even John Frakes would have done a better job.
-
I didn't know he wasn't in the theatrical release. I saw it when it came out, but couldn't point out differences between the two versions.
And Valeris's role was to assassinate Gorkon, as well as frame Kirk. I'd say that makes her a main gal.
The scenes with Aberjenois(?) were not in the theatrical cut? Didn’t know that.
That assumes Valeris came up with the whole plan, instead of just facilitating it on the ship. She didn’t necessarily have to be the mastermind behind it, if all she had to do was tell a couple lackies what to do and modify the torpedo database.
Nick Meyer directed II and VI and wrote IV.
I dunno why he didn't do more - he obviously knows what he's doing !
He didn’t want to write 3 because he thought it was counter to his idea of Spock being permanently dead, and didn’t know how to handle his resurrection. And nimoy directed 4, Meyer just wrote the stuff on Earth. Not sure if he was asked to do anything with 5.
-
I know Meyer didn't direct 4 - but he helped write it.
I wonder what persuaded him to come back for 6.
I thought david Carson did a good job with Generations and Frakes did well on First Contact.
-
That's only in the director's cut. Auberjonis played the admiral presenting the plans to invade Klingon space to get Kirk and McCoy back earlier in the directors cut, too. ...Admiral West, I think.
Are you sure?
VI was the only TOS cast movie I saw in theaters and I swear I remember seeing Rene's scenes, including the peeling off of the Klingon's face.
-
No, I'm not 100% sure. I just don't know why they would have removed them on the bluray release if they were on the theatrical version. Watching it right now, actually. :lol
-
Yea, the blu ray cuts were pretty lame.
-
Just doing a read at Memory Alpha, it seems the blu ray is the original theatrical version. The scenes with Auberjonis have just been in and out of various home releases. The blu ray is the first time they released the theatrical version to home video.
-
I wonder what persuaded him to come back for 6.
Nimoy, with his story, basically. Once he heard Nimoy's ideas, he got really excited about making it, and I think he really liked working with the cast abd being part of Star Trek.
-
From Memory Alpha:
West never actually appeared in the theatrical version of Star Trek VI since his scenes were deleted. However, he can be seen on the VHS and DVD releases of the movie, but is not listed in the cast credits at the end of VHS or DVD.
In 2009, a new cut of the DVD was released omitting the West scenes as it was offered as the first DVD cut of the theatrical release. Furthermore, the West scenes are not included on any Blu-Ray release.
-
Huh, the same actor that played Odo's Bajoran father also played Worf's son Alexander (alternate reality episode in TNG). :lol That makes Worf Odo's grandfather, right?
-
There should be a website that tries to explain all those actors' issues. Like, how Fleet Admiral Cartwright lived unnaturally long and then switched identities to become Joseph Sisko, Ben Sisko's dad.
Or, how Lwaxana Troi was chosen to be the Federation's computer voice.
-
Sarek was originally a Romulan Commander, killed in that first episode where we meet the Romulans, then it turns out he's alive and he was Spock's daddy all along. Weird.
-
That's actually one thing that confuses me with Star Trek, human lifespan. At various places it is indicated that 60-70 is supposed to be more middle aged, due to medical advances. Other times they have normal lifespans, Sisko's dad is considered old despite being in his 60's. If you go by the longer life model Cartwright realistically could fit into changing his identity and becoming Joseph Sisko.
-
I would definitely want to see the story on Jeffrey Combs (https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Combs)
-
:lol
Oh man, I feel horrible now. Jeffrey Combs would have become a full time cast member if Enterprise had been renewed for another season. :( I didn't know that, would have gotten me back on board for the second time with the series.
-
....Jeffery Combs was born in my hometown. Didn't know that.
Do panda and I are working our way through the movies (TMP - '09). So far we have watched the first one. I've realized 2 things...
The movie is so damn slowly paced that i almost can't watch it... And ive seen it so many times I can recite it
-
The movie is insanely slow. I think it's partly due to 2001 Space Odyssey. I have the impression they tried to ride on that style.
-
The movie is insanely slow. I think it's partly due to 2001 Space Odyssey. I have the impression they tried to ride on that style.
Indeed they did, which is quite odd actually.
I'm pretty sure I learned that the sole reason Star Trek as a franchise was revived for the movie was to counter the Star Wars franchise. So it's a bit odd that in an attempt to counter a fast paced action franchise they modeled the first movie after an art film.
-
The movie is insanely slow. I think it's partly due to 2001 Space Odyssey. I have the impression they tried to ride on that style.
Indeed they did, which is quite odd actually.
I'm pretty sure I learned that the sole reason Star Trek as a franchise was revived for the movie was to counter the Star Wars franchise. So it's a bit odd that in an attempt to counter a fast paced action franchise they modeled the first movie after an art film.
Roddenberry. Nuff said. The guy was a menace, and it's lucky for the rest of us that Paramount dropped the axe on him and brought in Harve Bennett.
After the release of The Motion Picture, executive producer Gene Roddenberry wrote his own sequel. In his plot, the crew of the Enterprise travel back in time to set right a corrupted time line after Klingons use the Guardian of Forever to prevent the assassination of John F. Kennedy.[16][17] This was rejected by Paramount executives, who blamed the poor performance and large budget ($46 million) of the first movie on its plodding pace and the constant rewrites Roddenberry demanded.[15] As a consequence, Roddenberry was removed from the production and, according to Shatner, "kicked upstairs" to the ceremonial position of executive consultant.[18] Harve Bennett, a new Paramount television producer, was made producer for the next Star Trek film.[19] According to Bennett, he was called in front of a group including Jeffrey Katzenberg and Michael Eisner and asked if he thought he could make a better movie than The Motion Picture, which Bennett confessed he found "really boring".[20] When Bennett replied in the affirmative, Charles Bluhdorn asked, "Can you make it for less than forty-five-fucking-million-dollars?" Bennett replied that "Where I come from, I can make five movies for that."[19]
To be fair, I enjoyed TMP, at least once they added in the footage that made the story coherent. I also found this interesting, regarding the director's cut:
Although no new scenes were added, the MPAA rated the revised edition "PG" in contrast to the "G" rating of the original release. Fein attributed the rating change to the more "intense" sound mix that made scenes such as the central part of V'Ger "more menacing"
-
I guess Roddenberry was suing to gut Undiscovered Country of a lot of the gritty stuff before he died. I can see how you would call him a menace, he wanted to destroy that movie.
-
Sarek was originally a Romulan Commander, killed in that first episode where we meet the Romulans, then it turns out he's alive and he was Spock's daddy all along. Weird.
He was also a Klingon for a while.
-
I remember reading a book about TMP, but somehow I (maybe wrongly) remember that Shatner also had his hands in the huge bloat of the movie. Maybe I'm mixing TMP and TFF together. In TFF Shatner definitely was responsible for a lot of bloat. He wanted this prolonged scene at the end where Kirk fights stone monsters and stuff.
-
There should be a website that tries to explain all those actors' issues. Like, how Fleet Admiral Cartwright lived unnaturally long and then switched identities to become Joseph Sisko, Ben Sisko's dad.
Or, how Lwaxana Troi was chosen to be the Federation's computer voice.
Or how David Warner shows up as a villain whenever needed.
-
Sarek was originally a Romulan Commander, killed in that first episode where we meet the Romulans, then it turns out he's alive and he was Spock's daddy all along. Weird.
He was also a Klingon for a while.
That's right! I'd forgotten, I think he was one of the Klingons that V'ger wiped out in that first scene.
-
Sarek was originally a Romulan Commander, killed in that first episode where we meet the Romulans, then it turns out he's alive and he was Spock's daddy all along. Weird.
He was also a Klingon for a while.
That's right! I'd forgotten, I think he was one of the Klingons that V'ger wiped out in that first scene.
Yep. I think he's the only actor to play all 3 of the main non-human ST races.
-
After realizing all of Star Trek is on Netflix, I decided what better time than now to get into the series. Conventional wisdom told me to go with TNG, but after some conversations with a cousin, and being kinda underwhelmed with the Pilot and first few episodes (aside from when the crew was intoxicated; that was awesome), I’ve been convinced to start with TOS. Finished the pilot last night, and thought it was overall pretty good. Silly, but in a loveable way.
Any of you guys got any advice for me as I proceed with watching all of Star Trek? The same cousin who recommended I watch TOS first also recommended I skip the first two seasons of Enterprise (aside from the pilot and a few select episodes), and skip Enterprise altogether.
-
I think that if the idea is to watch all of Star Trek, then you should do exactly that. All series, all episodes, in order.
-
I think that if the idea is to watch all of Star Trek, then you should do exactly that. All series, all episodes, in order.
When I started my re-watch I decided to do it in chronological order, not production order. Meaning I watch Enterprise first, followed by ToS, not Enterprise following Voyager.
-
I think that if the idea is to watch all of Star Trek, then you should do exactly that. All series, all episodes, in order.
Well, yeah, and that was my idea. But my cousins’ idea seemed to be, “no, don’t do that, you’ll force yourself through a lot of crap and wind up not liking it”. Thoughts?
-
I'd do it the chrono order wise.
Right now Panda and I are working our way through the movies, then are going to probably through in Enterprise (hey... I enjoyed it), TOS, TNG, DS9. Probably not Voyager though. We have spent months winding our way through it and I am getting burnt out (I've seen 99% of ST:V already)
-
I remember reading a book about TMP, but somehow I (maybe wrongly) remember that Shatner also had his hands in the huge bloat of the movie. Maybe I'm mixing TMP and TFF together. In TFF Shatner definitely was responsible for a lot of bloat. He wanted this prolonged scene at the end where Kirk fights stone monsters and stuff.
I hadn't heard that. But my knowledge comes from Shatner’s books, so who knows :D But I doubt he had enough clout at that point. TFF… well…. eh…
EB is right about Roddenberry, who had a massive creative struggle with the other writer, Something Livingston(?). They were also behind schedule and didn’t have enough time to be happy with the editing. Moving forward, Roddenberry was just too attached to his time travel/JFK story. Paramount wanted someone with 2 things: 1) a smaller head, and 2) experience working within a budget. Enter Harve Bennett.
-
But wasn't Star Trek basically Roddenberry's baby from the start? He's the recognized creator of the original series and thus the daddy of the whole franchise. Maybe he was getting old and/or his ideas were stupid or out of date later on, and I can't really blame Paramount for forcing him out, but I also can't blame Gene for fighting to keep creative control over his baby.
-
https://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/bestoftv/2013/01/06/exp-shatner-on-star-trek-and-charity.cnn
Kirk vs. Picard, Shatner says Kirk would win. Not sure I agree.
-
I think that if the idea is to watch all of Star Trek, then you should do exactly that. All series, all episodes, in order.
Well, yeah, and that was my idea. But my cousins’ idea seemed to be, “no, don’t do that, you’ll force yourself through a lot of crap and wind up not liking it”. Thoughts?
I think your cousin's right for the wrong reason. I'd watch them in production order. Enterprise has lots of throw back references to TOS and what followed, but they're just that. They work (or don't) as inside jokes and references, but I doubt they'd work at all as precursor to canon. Enterprise, for better or worse, was written last, and I just don't think it'd work as well being treated as an actual prequil.
The same cousin who recommended I watch TOS first also recommended I skip the first two seasons of Enterprise (aside from the pilot and a few select episodes), and skip Enterprise altogether.
¿que? I personally wouldn't skip any of the series, with the possible exception of TNG, and even that has enough good and vital episodes that I couldn't recommend it.
-
But wasn't Star Trek basically Roddenberry's baby from the start? He's the recognized creator of the original series and thus the daddy of the whole franchise. Maybe he was getting old and/or his ideas were stupid or out of date later on, and I can't really blame Paramount for forcing him out, but I also can't blame Gene for fighting to keep creative control over his baby.
True, but consider that having it be your 'baby' doesn't mean you are going to be the best person for the various jobs behind the scenes. George Lucas wasn't the best person for the jobs of screenwriting and directing, despite his baby being one of the biggest and greatest film franchises ever.
Gene was the creator, but Paramount didn’t think he had what it took to write something for the BIG SCREEN to bring in the dough Star Wars and Close Encounters did. TMP was too cerebral, (a complaint the original ST pilot got), too slow, with not enough action. And way too expensive for the suits. I don’t blame Gene’s resentment, but he didn’t do himself any favors by being too obstinate.
Heard someone say he thought ST6 was too militaristic. That was Meyer’s intention once he started on ST2, but from the beginning The Enterprise and her crew were pretty well-armed and not afraid to shoot for something not to be associated with the military. His opinion that members of Starfleet were too racist in ST6 does have some validity though.
-
Oops. ‘Cuz told me to skip the first two seasons of TNG; not Enterprise. He told me just to skip that altogether. I disagree with Cuz on a lot of Sci-Fi issues, though, which is why I’m getting third party opinions.
Personally, I’ve watched both the pilot to TNG and TOS so far. I liked TOS way better, so starting with that should be an easy decision. I do find Picard slightly more likeable that Kirk, but TOS just seems to move at a much more exciting pace, whereas TNG seems to like cramming info about the universe and history on you with lots and lots of unnecessary dialog. I am kinda taken back by how abrupt both shows start, though. It’s like “hey here’s the cast and crew-RIDICULOUS SHIT HAPPENING TO THEM RIGHT NOW”.
-
For TNG and DS9 there's an easy way to tell whether it's worth watching or not:
if (Riker has beard OR Sisko has beard)
{
Watch episode;
}
else
{
Don't watch episode;
}
-
If it were me, I'd look for a good list of 25 episodes or so for TNG and watch those. I'd probably watch the pilot, as fucking horrible as it was, just to get the character introductions done. After that, it's strictly great episodes or episodes which advance important stories or concepts. That'd include all of the Klingon story arc and the lead up to the troubles with the Kardassians.
I would watch Enterprise, but like I said, watch it last.
As for DS9 and Voyager, I think those are the two best series, so I'd watch all of them.
-
I was watching All Good Things yesterday, and it is still the best series finale I have seen so far. Definitely an episode to watch, PC.
-
I was watching All Good Things yesterday, and it is still the best series finale I have seen so far.
I think it's very good. However.....it suffers from one major problem, that when you really think about it, it served no real purpose other than Q screwing with Picard.
So the anomaly is started in the future when all three whatever beams all intersect which then goes back in time to destroy humanity. However since Q admitted that he's responsible for Picard going through time, it stands to reason that Picard would have never been looking for the anomaly otherwise. So really....if Q had just left Picard alone, it never would have happened at all. And then they say that the whole point is for Picard to understand the paradox of something starting because they were looking for it? I dunno.....it seems he's learned way more mind expanding things than that.
Like I said, that's only if you really start to think about it.
-
I was watching All Good Things yesterday, and it is still the best series finale I have seen so far. Definitely an episode to watch, PC.
Quite possibly the first declarative Star Trek based statement that you and I agree on. It was the weakest of the series, but easily the best finale.
I suspect TNG could probably be whittled down to 3-4 episodes per season. Even the first and seventh (which was just as terrible) had a few worth while episodes.
-
As usual (with TNG) I disagree with Barto's extreme dislike of it and think you should watch at least 80% of the episodes.
-
Okay we'll I'm starting with TOS. All of it. So I'll get to TNG when the next DT album comes out.
-
For TNG and DS9 there's an easy way to tell whether it's worth watching or not:
if (Riker has beard OR Sisko has beard)
{
Watch episode;
}
else
{
Don't watch episode;
}
That's an awful rule. Most of DS9 while Sisko did not haver a beard was good, and plenty of the show's best stuff happened with beardless Sisko.
-
Here's my take on it :
TNG > everything else.
Largely due to Voyager having some absolute howlers - way worse than anything TNG had.
Plus DS9 - i'm not a fan of series arcs - I prefer a new story each week - that way it doesn't matter if you miss an episode or two.
Enterprise - never really bothered with bar a couple of episodes. Seemed ok. Not as bad as Voyagers worst. Not as great as TNGs best.
TOS - just started rewatching.
-
Largely due to Voyager having some absolute howlers - way worse than anything TNG had.
Code of Honor. The Bonding. The Royale. The Loss. The Game. A Fistful of Datats. Sub Rosa.
I'm sure I could pick an episode from each season of the other series that's just as bad. My point is only that TNG has just as many equally rotten episodes as the others. My overall opinion is that TNG's best episodes were better than VOY's, but I really thought VOY was a much better show overall, for a variety of reasons.
-
TOS I just never cared for. I can see the appeal, but I find most of it weak. The movies, though, I at least like most of these.
TNG was big time hit or miss on episodes in my opinion. Week after week it always seemed like it would be even odds on great, whatever, or bad. I love it when its on, but there's too many wtf episodes and never got on big long runs of greatness. A couple of good movies to start, too, but the last two were bad.
DS9 is the only whole piece of Star Trek I love. Consistently good, tons of great episodes and only a few really bad ones. Best characters, arcs, and acting. Glad they never did movies, I think they would have turned out bad.
VOY was just too disappointing to me, it had the greatest premise off all the shows but neutered itself immediately. Worse, the characters probably grew the least out of all the shows, even though it should have had the most. Hard for me to judge it in a positive light.
ENT was almost always ok. Few great or awful episodes. It needed more great episodes, badly.
-
Largely due to Voyager having some absolute howlers - way worse than anything TNG had.
Code of Honor. The Bonding. The Royale. The Loss. The Game. A Fistful of Datats. Sub Rosa.
I'm sure I could pick an episode from each season of the other series that's just as bad. My point is only that TNG has just as many equally rotten episodes as the others. My overall opinion is that TNG's best episodes were better than VOY's, but I really thought VOY was a much better show overall, for a variety of reasons.
It's that DAHM CAHNDLE! :rollin
-
For TNG and DS9 there's an easy way to tell whether it's worth watching or not:
if (Riker has beard OR Sisko has beard)
{
Watch episode;
}
else
{
Don't watch episode;
}
That's an awful rule. Most of DS9 while Sisko did not haver a beard was good, and plenty of the show's best stuff happened with beardless Sisko.
...and speaking of the beardless Sisko era, I just watched the two episodes right before he got his beard, Improbably Cause and The Die is Cast. Phenomenal two parter. "These Founders, Elim, they're very good." It's got Garak AND Eddington, it's like a double dosage of guaranteed greatness.
-
I can't honestly imagine a bad moment on DS9 that involved Garek.
-
No kidding, and that's no small feat with him being in over 30 episodes.
edit: Ah, yes, he was in one poor episode, though it was an imagination of him. That one with Bashir aging rapidly in his own mind. Garak was good in it, though.
-
No kidding, and that's no small feat with him being in over 30 episodes.
Yea, the Cardassians were by far the greatest villians I'd ever seen on ST from a performance stand point. Out of all of the Cardasians they had, which was a whole lot, maybe a handful were mediocre, and those were only an episode or so each.
DS9 definitely had the best actors, with the exception of Bashir for about 70% of it and Kira and Dax for a bit too.
And unlike a lot of you guys (not you specifically Yorost) I really enjoyed Odo and especially his relationship to Quark. I think their little cop/bad guy/best friends dynamic was perfect and the two actors were flawless in it.
-
Garak was the highpoint of the show, easily. There were other great characters, but he was consistently the most entertaining.
And he was Scorpio. That jacks him up another couple of notches in my book.
I was fine with Odo, and the Odo/Quark dynamic was always good. I disagree about the acting, though. As for Bashir, while he had little real acting to do in DS9, from what I can tell Alexander el-whateverthefuckhecallshimselfnow probably had the best acting chops of all of them.
Just watched Deathwish. Q's constant belittlement of Janeway always cracks me up. I think the two of them had the best rapport of any of the crews. Piccard and Riker were always just pissy about him. Janeway made it clear she couldn't stand him, but was still willing to play his game.
-
Disagree about Siddig and the Q stuff. Picard was a bit too crass with Q most of the time, but during the right moments, they had a brilliant chemistry. The episode uhhh....I'm terrible with names, when he gets shot in the heart and goes back in time and stuff, you know?
Also Siddig is a great actor. I saw him a movie called Miral and he almost made me cry. But as Bashir? I just don't think he got the character or liked the character for a long time, and it was just obvious we were watching someone play Bashir rather than just watching Bashir.
When I see people like Odo, or Garek, or O'Brien or Dukat, I'm just watching those people. I'm not watching Rene, or Andrew or Colm or Marc playing a character on camera. You know?
I dunno. You and I clearly see most of ST differently anyway, so I don't expect we'll agree on this much either.
-
To me Q was always a TNG character. Them writing him into Voyager always seemed forced to me. It made some sense that Q had randomly chosen the Enterprise and Picard as his pet project. There was no reason for him to appear on the Voyager.
-
Yea, the Cardassians were by far the greatest villians I'd ever seen on ST from a performance stand point. Out of all of the Cardasians they had, which was a whole lot, maybe a handful were mediocre, and those were only an episode or so each.
DS9 definitely had the best actors, with the exception of Bashir for about 70% of it and Kira and Dax for a bit too.
The Cardassians benefited greatly by having Robinson, Alaimo, and Briggs as the three primary representatives on DS9. None of them were intended to be recurring cast, but they were all instant connections as Cardassians on screen. ...and Briggs did it as only a simple lackey.
I also never really had a problem with Siddig and Bashir. Sure, some of the corny lines he got weren't delivered the best, but I'm not sure how some of those should be delivered and not just sound wrong, i.e. some of the Vic slang thrown into the show.
-
Yea, the Cardassians were by far the greatest villians I'd ever seen on ST from a performance stand point. Out of all of the Cardasians they had, which was a whole lot, maybe a handful were mediocre, and those were only an episode or so each.
DS9 definitely had the best actors, with the exception of Bashir for about 70% of it and Kira and Dax for a bit too.
The Cardassians benefited greatly by having Robinson, Alaimo, and Briggs as the three primary representatives on DS9.
I also never really had a problem with Siddig and Bashir. Sure, some of the corny lines he got weren't delivered the best, but I'm not sure how some of those should be delivered and not just sound wrong, i.e. some of the Vic slang thrown into the show.
I think Bashir was at best when either A) things were really tense and he had to buckle down and get to business or B) when he was just hanging out with O'Brien.
But when he was being super doctor on the frontier........dunno. Maybe the character just wasn't great. He got a lot better as the show went on. But for the first few seasons, I didn't dig him as much.
-
I think, of all the actors on the show, Siddig improved the most. He didn't really sell the young, inexperienced, cocky doctor of the first season, but he did damn fine with the O'brien/Bashir friendship stuff.
-
Disagree about Siddig and the Q stuff. Picard was a bit too crass with Q most of the time, but during the right moments, they had a brilliant chemistry. The episode uhhh....I'm terrible with names, when he gets shot in the heart and goes back in time and stuff, you know?
Also Siddig is a great actor. I saw him a movie called Miral and he almost made me cry. But as Bashir? I just don't think he got the character or liked the character for a long time, and it was just obvious we were watching someone play Bashir rather than just watching Bashir.
When I see people like Odo, or Garek, or O'Brien or Dukat, I'm just watching those people. I'm not watching Rene, or Andrew or Colm or Marc playing a character on camera. You know?
I dunno. You and I clearly see most of ST differently anyway, so I don't expect we'll agree on this much either.
I don't really disagree about Bashir. Like I said, he had very little to do in DS9, which was somewhat by design. IIRC, they didn't really have much of an idea of the guy going in, aside from being young and arrogant. I know in the writer's bible, he had like one paragraph, and I think the plan all along was just to see where his character went. Much like Worf, I believe (and Dorn was much worse as an actor).
Tapestry wasn't a bad episode, but really, Q pretty much made Piccard his bitch in that one. Not the dynamic I wanted to see projected. Aside from a lot of ribbing, Q actually seemed to have a fair amount of respect for Janeway. I never thought Piccard was much more than a beloved cocker spaniel to him.
-
I think Bashir was at best when either A) things were really tense and he had to buckle down and get to business or B) when he was just hanging out with O'Brien.
But when he was being super doctor on the frontier........dunno. Maybe the character just wasn't great. He got a lot better as the show went on. But for the first few seasons, I didn't dig him as much.
That I can understand. His best episodes early on were things things like Storytellers and Armageddon Game, which laid the foundation for O'Brien/Bashir. I think the powers that be saw the two of them played really well together. But yes, Bashir was widely hated early on, and the producers wanted you to hate him. Maybe some of it was acting, maybe not, but it was a great long term plan from the get go on their part, to have a character planned to go from hated cock to well loved seasoned veteran.
-
I realized that Spotify has several movie soundtracks. Awesome, I've already had 2 coworkers drop into my office, one of them asking "dude, was that just the Klingon theme?".
-
They don't have Nemesis, though. :( Say what you will about the movie, the soundtrack is great.
-
I realized that Spotify has several movie soundtracks. Awesome, I've already had 2 coworkers drop into my office, one of them asking "dude, was that just the Klingon theme?".
:lol
(generic joke about programmers, nerds, Trekkies)
-
How cool. The TMP soundtrack has a second CD with interviews of Gene Roddenberry. He goes into a movie he made called "Questor Tapes", which was the basis for Data essentially.
EDIT: And even cooler, the movie is on Youtube.
-
I remember reading a bit about Questor Tapes. I thought it was a TV project that never got off the ground.
-
I remember reading a bit about Questor Tapes. I thought it was a TV project that never got off the ground.
A remake of it never got off the ground. That's what you're probably remembering.
-
I realized that Spotify has several movie soundtracks. Awesome, I've already had 2 coworkers drop into my office, one of them asking "dude, was that just the Klingon theme?".
Root Fifths EveryWHARRRR
-
I realized that Spotify has several movie soundtracks. Awesome, I've already had 2 coworkers drop into my office, one of them asking "dude, was that just the Klingon theme?".
Goldsmith loved to use that damn Klingon theme. :lol
My favourite Trek soundtrack is actually the Trek 11 one, although Goldsmith always wrote the best of the rest.
-
I *love* Giacchino's Star Trek score !!
The main theme when all the shuttles are escaping from the Kelvin and the Title comes up is just fucking Epic.
It's my 2nd favourite Star Trek score behind The Wrath Of Khan which is fantastic.
Especially that motif whenever you see the Reliant - that descending chromatic thing :)
-
I *love* Giacchino's Star Trek score !!
The main theme when all the shuttles are escaping from the Kelvin and the Title comes up is just fucking Epic.
YES, although I prefer the full version in "Enterprising Young Men", when they first see and board the Enterprise. :tup
I don't have the TWOK score. I only have FC, Insurrection, XI, and a bunch of compilations of main themes etc. I never much liked the TWOK theme, but when watching the movie most recently, I really enjoyed all of the variations of the theme, so I'd probably quite like the score now.
-
TWOK may be my favourite movie theme & score ever !
Others are Inception, Star Trek 2009, Back To The Future of course ;)
For Spotify Users:
https://open.spotify.com/track/7hfEKLsNpkAg1nkxMp5m5c
Star Trek The Wrath Of Khan Theme.
Impossible not to enjoy ! :D
Gives me goosebumps everytime and reminds me how great that film is.
-
Track not available in the US :(
I love this sucker though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzqJSaM41S4
If I ever have a band again, that tune will be my opening tune.
-
Also good !!!
I love the shots of 1701-A in that movie !
-
5 eps in TOS. Absolutely loving it.
-
Seems like the people who really dig TOS are the people who started with it. The people who started with TNG go back and watch TOS with different expectations and don't care for it. It all depends on what your idea of ST is.
-
Oh absolutely. Especially TOS was very different from the later series.
-
My mother started with TOS, loves TNG most.
My father started with TOS, loves TOS movies most.
My brother started with TNG, loves TOS most.
I started with TNG, only love DS9.
-
TNG started roughly 20 years after TOS and now TOS looks really dated.
It's now 25 years since TNG started and I wonder how the first series looks to fans of JJ's Star Trek..
I think it holds up tbh.. The 80's direction sticks out but apart from that I think it's survived.
Fun Fact : I found out recently that after they'd finished shooting " All Good Things..." they had TWO DAYS break and they went straight into filming on " Generations " !!!
-
Well, I technically started with the new movies. But, when it comes to watching the shows, I did start with TNG... basically watching the pilot and the first episode before being convinced I've got to start from the beginning. And, I'm glad I did.
TNG had a lot of good characters (Picard, Data, Jordy, etc.) but I feel like, at least so far, they really haven't been able to convince me to suspend my disbelief.
With TOS, the scenarios are even campier and more ridiculous, but Kirk, Spock, and McCoy just sell it all flawlessly. It's kinda like TNG tends to expound on the storyline too long, leaving the viewer to simmer in how goofy and contradictory it is, while TOS and Kirk never really give you that room to doubt.
-
Well my feeling on TNG is :
It's sci-fi. It's just 45 minutes of entertainment. It's supposed to be ridiculous. If it was Science Fact - it would be rather dull ! :P
I saw an article on line : Movies that have bad sci-fi.
What's is bad sci-fi ? It's all fiction. By it's very nature it's all fake and made up.
If every futuristic film was Sci-Fact then every film would be about how we went to the moon once and managed to get a shuttle to Mars.
-
What's is bad sci-fi ? It's all fiction. By it's very nature it's all fake and made up.
Yes, but it still has to maintain internal consistency, and also obey certain fundamental physical laws unless explicitly overridden by the "fiction" aspect, since they're still based in the real world to some degree.
For example, if you saw someone in Star Trek step outside the ship safely into space without putting on a space suit of some kind, it would be bad scifi, because the reality of the situation dictates they'd die a horrible painful death.
-
This article was mainly stuff that would be impossible in our actual non fictional world.
-
Well my feeling on TNG is :
It's sci-fi. It's just 45 minutes of entertainment. It's supposed to be ridiculous. If it was Science Fact - it would be rather dull ! :P
I saw an article on line : Movies that have bad sci-fi.
What's is bad sci-fi ? It's all fiction. By it's very nature it's all fake and made up.
If every futuristic film was Sci-Fact then every film would be about how we went to the moon once and managed to get a shuttle to Mars.
I get that, but from the little bit of TNG I’ve seen, they take that idea (that it’s sci-fi, and ridiculous, and campy as hell) and they expound on it (through lots of dialogue with lots of info dumping) until you can’t help but notice.
By comparison, Shatner knows Star Trek is ridiculous. But he blurts his sci-fi exposition out with the confidence and charm of a used car salesman, and sells it to you before you can call it into question.
-
It's all fiction, but science fiction presumes that certain things will become possible due to scientific advances made between now and then. Maybe the advances are things we're working on now, or at least have conceptualized, maybe they'll come as complete surprises to us, but the idea is to deal with them realistically.
The example of stepping out into space without a suit is a good one, because it just plain doesn't make sense. No air, no protection from the extreme temperature, you die. But there was a time when stepping out into space with a suit was science fiction. The idea that you could be safely enveloped in "clothing" that would be air-tight, pressurized, and insulated was ridiculous. But here we are.
For that matter, think back to the SCUBA, the Self-Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus. Oxygen pressurized to the point where it becomes liquid, stored in tanks you can wear on your back, and you breathe it through a tube. And by the way, it revaporizes and warms up enough for you to breathe it somehow between the tanks and the mouthpiece. There was a time when someone proposing such an apparatus would've been laughed out of the room.
Bad science fiction IMO is when things just plain don't make sense. They violate known scientific theory, and either no attempt is made to explain it, or the explanation is just bad. Stepping out into space without a suit because "we've evolved to the point where we don't need them anymore". That's just crap. Now, if it turns out that the person in question is an alien, and their species can do that, okay it's still pretty lame, but at least there's an attempt to explain it.
-
I get that, but from the little bit of TNG I’ve seen, they take that idea (that it’s sci-fi, and ridiculous, and campy as hell) and they expound on it (through lots of dialogue with lots of info dumping) until you can’t help but notice.
By comparison, Shatner knows Star Trek is ridiculous. But he blurts his sci-fi exposition out with the confidence and charm of a used car salesman, and sells it to you before you can call it into question.
I think that's a pretty good assessment. TNG relies heavily on technobabble to advance whatever plot they wish to advance. To be fair, TOS's approach to problematic plots is to just make a quick statement and then ignore it going forward. "This planet is identical to the Earth in every way. That's weird. Anyway, landing party of five. . ." I suppose that's better than spending 5 minutes trying to bullshit your way past it, since it just moves right on into whatever story they have in mind.
Also worth pointing out is that despite being problematic in many ways, TNG really nails it from time to time. They occasionally hit on something light years beyond what TOS could do. Because of the continuity that they had and TOS didn't, they're able to throw out some character driven stories much better than TOS, and when they don't take themselves entirely too seriously (rare) they can hit on some intellectual matters that they wouldn't have bothered with in the sixties.
I certainly prefer TOS to 95% of TNG, but that 5% actually does make the show worthwhile.
-
One thing that TNG got right but TOS (IMHO) never did was time-travel episodes. In TOS they were just excuses for a cheap set, in TNG they pulled off some mind-boggling plots.
-
One thing that TNG got right but TOS (IMHO) never did was time-travel episodes. In TOS they were just excuses for a cheap set, in TNG they pulled off some mind-boggling plots.
City On The Edge of Forever was the only time travel TOS did that didn't feel like a cheap excuse to raid the costume department, and that was an excellent episode, aside from the idea of some random sentient time machine on a far away planet that travels to Earth's history. The rest were mostly pretty terrible.
The episodes of TNG on tonight here were The Next Phase, Inner Light, and the first part of the one where they find Data's head buried and time travel etc. Great lineup. I didn't watch the last one because I didn't want to have to wait until next week to see the rest.
-
To me the mother of all time-travel episodes is Cause and Effect. I remember watching it the first time and thinking "holy shit, this is the best story ever".
-
I saw that episode a couple of weeks ago. Great episode, although I never liked the ending of the number 3 relating to the 3 pips thing. I thought that was a bit convoluted, especially for an android lacking in creativity.
I'm generally a sucker for any time travel episode of any show though. :lol
-
The episodes of TNG on tonight here were The Next Phase, Inner Light, and the first part of the one where they find Data's head buried and time travel etc. Great lineup. I didn't watch the last one because I didn't want to have to wait until next week to see the rest.
IIRC, part one of the Data's Head episode was great. Part two was absolutely awful. It's like they fired the entire staff over the off season and brought in flunkies to finish it up the next season.
City On The Edge of Forever was the only time travel TOS did that didn't feel like a cheap excuse to raid the costume department, and that was an excellent episode, aside from the idea of some random sentient time machine on a far away planet that travels to Earth's history.
TNG was just as guilty of such things. The aforementioned episode is a fine example. The Guardian probably went everywhere and only showed Earth because Earthlings showed up. Is that any worse than random aliens on the other side of the galaxy that chose Earth's history to go back and suck the life out of people? And what makes the Guardian of Forever any different than the Archonians?
-
To me the mother of all time-travel episodes is Cause and Effect. I remember watching it the first time and thinking "holy shit, this is the best story ever".
Rings a bell - i'll have to look it up as I remember enjoying it.
Lots of my favourite TNG episodes were three words long ;D
-
Edit : oh yes - is that the one with Captain Frasier stuck in the time-loop in a Miranda class starship ?
Supplemental : I do like how " USS Reliant " was designed the other way up but something happened to make them turn it upside down by accident and they agreed it looked better.
I think it looks a lot more menacing orientated as it is on screen now - despite there being no " up " in space ! :p
-
Harve Bennet looked at the preliminary sketches upside down and said "love it. Go with it." Since he didn't know much about Trek, it makes perfect sense. They did alter the design once that happened, though. The roll bar (when used) was only added once they learned they were using the upside down version of it.
-
I like the nacelles underneath the main hull, rather than on top. It makes it looks more like a speedboat or something, while the top-mounted nacelles always seemed odd to me. Maybe because I grew up on boats, but the propulsion being on top just feels wrong.
-
Edit : oh yes - is that the one with Captain Frasier stuck in the time-loop in a Miranda class starship ?
Actually, Soyuz class.
-
I'll look it up. Which is the one where it comes out a nebula and smashes into The Enterprise ? is that the same episode ?
Pretty sure it was the Reliant style one. Maybe they're different.
To Google ! ;D
-
I like the nacelles underneath the main hull, rather than on top. It makes it looks more like a speedboat or something, while the top-mounted nacelles always seemed odd to me. Maybe because I grew up on boats, but the propulsion being on top just feels wrong.
I love The Enterprise design . It was totally different to anything else at the time and still looks better than anything since ( imo ) .
It's just sleek and grand and has really great symmetry . the 1701 refit especially looked good on screen with it's long sharp lines.
-
I'll look it up. Which is the one where it comes out a nebula and smashes into The Enterprise ? is that the same episode ?
Pretty sure it was the Reliant style one. Maybe they're different.
To Google ! ;D
Yeah, they do call it a Soyuz class, but they used the redressed Reliant model due to lack of funds. Originally it was supposed to be a per-Constititution class star ship. That would have been cool.
-
I like the nacelles underneath the main hull, rather than on top. It makes it looks more like a speedboat or something, while the top-mounted nacelles always seemed odd to me. Maybe because I grew up on boats, but the propulsion being on top just feels wrong.
I love The Enterprise design . It was totally different to anything else at the time and still looks better than anything since ( imo ) .
It's just sleek and grand and has really great symmetry . the 1701 refit especially looked good on screen with it's long sharp lines.
I should've clarified. I do like The Enterprise design, both original and most of the later ones. And most other starships, like The Excelsior. Nacelles on top work because they don't dominate the overall lines of the ship. The main hull is large enough.
With the original design of The Reliant, you'd have the little disk with two nacelles above and slightly behind it, and that just looks topheavy to me. I know that it doesn't work that way, but somehow it looks like it would push the craft downwards, not forwards. Again, I'm sure this is because of my nautical experience. But mount the main hull on top of two engines, and you're built for speed, baby!
-
Yeah it so does not matter what shape it is in space that The Borg is just a Giant Cube - the least aerodynamic shape there is :P
I wonder who pitched that idea first... " Why not just a Giant Metal Cube ? "
It does look pretty ominous and it's really original. A spaceship thats literally a square.
-
I'm sure it was meant to be alien looking -- which it is -- and also to emphasize the Borg's cold, calculating nature. The various locations within the cube were presumably identified by their coordinates, everything about them was all mathematical, etc.
It was definitely a scary and bizarre sight, seeing a cube coming at you.
-
Oh, it looks great, and that's important for the show. However, if they really are a meticulously calculating culture the design makes no sense. Despite misconceptions otherwise, true spaceships with the power and long range capabilities presented in Star Trek would likely look aerodynamic to the extreme. And oordinates do not require the x-y-z squareness. An advanced race would have no problem using other coordinate systems to identify locations. You can be uniform and even without being square.
I just think the Borg are all affect. Hard to justify why an advanced race would find advantage in that design, even with extreme fiction put into the sci-fi.
What's is bad sci-fi ? It's all fiction. By it's very nature it's all fake and made up.
If every futuristic film was Sci-Fact then every film would be about how we went to the moon once and managed to get a shuttle to Mars.
I think you should be getting at the hard sci fi instead of the it has had to have actually been done to count. Hard sci fi goes about crafting worlds using things believed to be possible, or, a little weaker, not believed to be impossible. Scientific reasoning is used to justify the way the world and its rules are crafted. 'Bad' sci-fi is breaking laws we believe cannot be broken, typically for the sake of story, or just making things up as you need them. If you believe FTL travel is impossible, you're left with much more difficult storytelling, see Alastair Reynolds. It's awesome, but the worlds are far different than the typical planet-like cultures and interations presented in sci-fi.
-
The cube ships make sense for a variety of reasons. For one thing they're simple. If they don't need the specific design that normal ships do (hull and 2 nacelles), and it appears that they don't, then why do it? It's also more efficient from a volumetric standpoint. No unused space. There's a symmetry which would likely be beneficial. Each facet can be identical, which for a race that spends most of it's time in combat would be very beneficial. It's probably also pretty modular and standardized. Also a big plus.
-
None of those points make you think 'square'. It's a rudimentary coordinate system that's probably going to generate a series of inefficiencies. If you're going to use your points I think I create a giant V or pyramid, created out of smaller similarly shaped pieces, but now you can organize them to interact in something like a balanced binary tree structure instead of a taxi can geometry. Connections between modular pieces can be in logarithmic distances instead of root distances of a cube. (edit: If anyone wants to do the math or think it out further, that's more of an approximation of how things would work instead of actuall numbers. To achieve logarithmic communication structure there would have to be an uneven tiling, but even at every layer. While it would never reasonably achieve an ideal efficiency of log, it could offer significant gains in easing computation and physical traffic. Anyways, a real space ship is more likely to look like a pin, unless antigrav is possible and dirt cheap to generate, you might as well try to find a way to use your thrust. Now we're talking polar coordinates and the samesortof modularity, only on cross sections.)
People like to say aerodynamics don't matter in space by saying space is empty, but it isn't true, especially as you're closer to planetary bodies. Space has matter in it, and at high speeds it would impact a ship's travel. You also have to deal with 'junk', which is a problem even in Earth's orbit, where things are not traveling that fast. One wrong little rock hits the ISP and it could be severely crippled. Streamlined ships offer protection at high interplanetary speeds.
-
Which is where the deflector dish comes in :P
-
:lol
Yes, but that's Star Trek. It's just that the very streamlined spaceship, like a rocket, literally, offers a simple solution to the problems most of sci-fi just writes away with technological advances we can't comprehend, yet. I want to emphasize I cannot take credit for what I am writing, it's just stuff I've read on the topic from a mix of places. However, I'm convinced that, to the best of our current knowledge, realistic advanced spaceships will be long and look aerodynamic.
-
A key part of the Borg's spookiness is their level of technological advancement. When you have the combined knowledge of thousands of species and planets, I doubt aerodynamics are much of a deal breaker. If they just cruised around in normal looking ships they wouldn't be nearly as ominous.
-
Disregarding the physical design of the Borg ship, I thought Roddenberry had touched on a brilliant design principle of a superior enemy, decentralization. They're essentially the BitTorrent of Star Trek: Shut down one site, and another site will simply take over.
Too bad they threw that principle out the window for First Contact.
-
Actually, the Borg Sphere (I think it showed up in First Contact) was pretty cool, too. That is the most efficient, at least in terms of volume to surface area ratio.
Cubes aren't the most efficient in that respect, but they do have it in one important area: storage space. If you have to store a lot of Borg Cubes in your basement, or maybe your garage, then cubes are the way to go. Stack 'em up, no wasted space.
-
Disregarding the physical design of the Borg ship, I thought Roddenberry had touched on a brilliant design principle of a superior enemy, decentralization. They're essentially the BitTorrent of Star Trek: Shut down one site, and another site will simply take over.
Too bad they threw that principle out the window for First Contact.
Roddenberry never would have come up with the Borg.
-
For one thing they didn't wear cowboy hats !
-
Just for fun I googled Gene Roddenberry together with borg and the first thing that came up is a yahoo question where someone asks if he got the idea for them from Islam and Muslims.
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
I'm just flabbergasted someone would ask such a thing.
-
Probably an American ;D
-
When I did that search I got a hit for a post at Stormfront, suggesting that the Borg are GR's warning to white folk everywhere. :rollin The fact that he put together one of the most multicultural casts ever (or that he was banging Uhura) seemed to be lost on him.
-
Don't forget that Star Trek had TV's first ever inter-racial kiss.
-
Which was actually supposed to be between Uhura and Spock. Maybe that's where they got the idea for ST 2009's love affair from.
-
How the hell does someone not notice that there is multi racial characters on the bridge alone?! :lol
-
Maybe because of Chekov's horrendous Russian accent :lol
-
:lol
*raises eyebrow*
Indeed
-
Which is even funnier since Koening is part Russian .
-
I dunno, I've met a good amount of Russians in my life, but none of them sounded like Koenig's Chekov.
-
I was watching All Good Things yesterday, and it is still the best series finale I have seen so far. Definitely an episode to watch, PC.
Quite possibly the first declarative Star Trek based statement that you and I agree on. It was the weakest of the series, but easily the best finale.
Just wrapped up DS9, and now I'm not so sure. While AGT and WYLB are apples and oranges, the latter was very good. The completion of Damar's transformation was something else. And Kai Ratched's death was fucking awesome. AGT was really just another episode, albeit a very good one. They could have gone right on along afterward, and they did with some movies thate were essentially longer, more expensive episodes. WYLB was actually a culmination of everything they'd started. It had finality and a grandeur to go along with it.
-
I was watching All Good Things yesterday, and it is still the best series finale I have seen so far. Definitely an episode to watch, PC.
Quite possibly the first declarative Star Trek based statement that you and I agree on. It was the weakest of the series, but easily the best finale.
Just wrapped up DS9, and now I'm not so sure. While AGT and WYLB are apples and oranges, the latter was very good. The completion of Damar's transformation was something else. And Kai Ratched's death was fucking awesome. AGT was really just another episode, albeit a very good one. They could have gone right on along afterward, and they did with some movies thate were essentially longer, more expensive episodes. WYLB was actually a culmination of everything they'd started. It had finality and a grandeur to go along with it.
I think All Good Things was an excellent episode, but I really feel like DS9 wrapped up the series so damn perfectly. It gave that sense of conclusion that Voyager's finale blue-balled me with (having watched Voyager first not too long beforehand)
The main story of the Dominion wrapped up in the first half of the episode, then the rest was mostly wrapping up character arcs, and it was just written as the all inclusive finale. My vote definitely goes to WYLB.
-
WYLB truly wrapped up a series. That last shot of the series, the pan out with Jake and Kira, is something else. The one big thing they left open was Bajor entering the Federation, but you can safely assume based on the series events it was going to happen in short order. It blew up the cast, certainly.
I love All Good Things, too, but I share similar sentiment on it. It was like a great tv movie, but it didn't really close anything. WYLB was great and concluded a series. DS9 had a huge advantage in the powers that be wanting to avoid taking it to movies. That final arc is why I never wanted to see a DS9 movie, I don't think a movie trying to reboot the cast could ever lead to a better ending. It would be too much contrivance just to turn around and end it again.
Also, I think Voyager was in a tough spot. Without better planning early in the series it was tough for them to have a ending that felt right. To me, getting home probably needed a different method of storytelling to feel comfortable. Either bigger jumps in time throughout the series, arcs leading to big gains, or something. I could have even bought the show culminating with the ship finally accepting a new structure of some sort of generational ship, passing on the story of the crew and a short epilogue showing the ancestors returning. I don't know, it just felt like too much to have the magical return home. With where they were at the end, I think they had to have a tragic/bitter ending to be fulfilling. The ship sacrificing itself for the betterment of the galaxy, or perhaps finally accepting their fate and settling down somewhere. :dunno:
-
I would have hated a tragic/bitter ending to Voyager even more. That would have gone against everything the show was about, given how many times they could have settled down on nice planets, and the sacrifices they'd made along the way.
What they really needed was a storyline where they got home on their own without intervention, to really show the determination and resourcefulness of the crew to get home, and then more time dedicated to the aftermath of arriving home, especially after beating the odds. Instead all we got was a CG shot of a lot of ships and a quick "hey, it's you guys. I guess that's neat."
-
That could have worked, too. I really like that idea. ...or even if they just found a way to jump them to the fringe of Federation exploration, so that it would still take a year or so to get back to Earth. A so close but so far last season.
I would have hated a tragic/bitter ending to Voyager even more. That would have gone against everything the show was about, given how many times they could have settled down on nice planets, and the sacrifices they'd made along the way.
That's something I see as a mistake on the show's part. Cheap ways home skipped plus these wonderful opportunities seemed passed seemed a little forced and hard to understand. The show was too happy and idealistic for a should be desperate crew.
-
That could have worked, too. I really like that idea. ...or even if they just found a way to jump them to the fringe of Federation exploration, so that it would still take a year or so to get back to Earth. A so close but so far last season.
Something not so final, but still hopeful. That could have worked, and I wouldn't have minded that.
And I really would have preferred they didn't have any contact with Starfleet in that last season or so. I preferred them being completely cut off.
-
Agreed, especially with relying on TNG. At least they tried to set up the final jump home, but it didn't come off well for the series.
-
Not only relying on TNG, but not even good characters. :lol
I wish they'd dedicated the last season to some major push to get home, like a multi-episode arc attempting one desperate method to get home, instead of the little opportunities of the week.
But you know, Voyager, and all that.
-
Watching "We'll always have Paris" right now, which I had totally forgotten about.
Damn is Trio still annoying in those days. All she does is sense obvious distress in people and rub it in.
-
Speaking of Troi reminded me of this Family Guy clip-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6MWSMRKGoo
-
Working on a true watch through of TNG. The first season is killing me... the biggest thing being the lack of beard
-
Speaking of Troi reminded me of this Family Guy clip-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6MWSMRKGoo
I love that they can all take the piss out of themselves. Patrick Stewart is hilarious when he does comedy and it's nice to find out that the entire cast still get together and none of them hate each other like Takei / Shatner.
:)
-
Now that Jar Jar Abrams has sold out to Star Wars and mega millions despite promising his "loyalty" to Trek : Who would you like to
see direct Star Trek XIII / 3 ?
My pics would be Joss Whedon, Duncan Jones or Nick Meyer.
-
I'd rather they spend the money on a new show actually.
-
I just finished season 1 of TOS and I've started season 2, having never really watched it before. I really enjoyed it. Cheap sets and props aside, the show really has beaten expectations and I've really enjoyed it. The Apollo episode in season 2 is pretty weak, but for the most part it the writing has stood the test of time. One of the parts I'm really enjoying is seeing things that have been the homages and bits that have been riffed on in modern shows.
-
That could have worked, too. I really like that idea. ...or even if they just found a way to jump them to the fringe of Federation exploration, so that it would still take a year or so to get back to Earth. A so close but so far last season.
Something not so final, but still hopeful. That could have worked, and I wouldn't have minded that.
And I really would have preferred they didn't have any contact with Starfleet in that last season or so. I preferred them being completely cut off.
They finally make it back to the Alpha quadrant, set a course for home, and then get ambushed by Jem Hadar who blow them to bits. :rollin
-
That could have worked, too. I really like that idea. ...or even if they just found a way to jump them to the fringe of Federation exploration, so that it would still take a year or so to get back to Earth. A so close but so far last season.
Something not so final, but still hopeful. That could have worked, and I wouldn't have minded that.
And I really would have preferred they didn't have any contact with Starfleet in that last season or so. I preferred them being completely cut off.
They finally make it back to the Alpha quadrant, set a course for home, and then get ambushed by Jem Hadar who blow them to bits. :rollin
I'm not so sure that pitch would have gone so well in the writer's room. :lol
-
Watching "We'll always have Paris" right now, which I had totally forgotten about.
Damn is Trio still annoying in those days. All she does is sense obvious distress in people and rub it in.
+1
I really enjoyed Lwaxana episodes though, for some reason. They were always so ridiculous. Maybe it's because I could always relate to the other characters absolutely cringing at her.
-
In rewatching all of the series, I skipped every single episode with that awful woman in them. As I recall, the one with Major Winchester was probably a pretty good episode, but I had a good thing going and didn't care enough to find out.
-
In rewatching all of the series, I skipped every single episode with that awful woman in them. As I recall, the one with Major Winchester was probably a pretty good episode, but I had a good thing going and didn't care enough to find out.
I actually didn't mind her episodes of DS9. Definitely better than her TNG appearances.
-
Poor Odo.
-
I just finished watching season 1 of DS9. I've only seen a minute or two when it was actually on air before that.
How on earth did they cast that actor for Sisko? He had to have been some one's brother or nephew or something. If the rest of the cast wasn't so good I would have stopped watching by now.
-
I couldn't stand his overacting (poor one at that) too. But he either gets better with time or I just got so used to it that I didn't mind it at all. So keep watching.
-
Oh, I'll keep watching just for the Quark/Odo dynamic.
I just cringe when I watch him going through the lines in his head while the other actors deliver them.
-
Avery Brooks was a highlight, even in season 1. Whether he is good or bad has been a debate ever since DS9 has been running, but it largely boils down to if you accept his dramatic stage acting or not. He often came across as disliking filmed projects, preferring stage prjects like adapted Shakespeare. I loved his persona on DS9, many find it awkward.
-
Well as an un biased outsider to the series, his acting is terrible. He breaks me out of the show almost everything he's on screen. I don't buy his character at all, and can only see the gears turning. His least worse moments are when he is with Jake.
-
Why am I biased? I watched the show for a first time, too. Sisko was a big part of why I fell in love with the series back when it was first airing.
-
I'd rather they spend the money on a new show actually.
A new TV show is the last thing I want.
Voyager & Enterprise were both poor and Star Trek always works best on the Big Screen.
-
Enterprise was awesome, Star Trek movies just don't have that feel the tv shows have.
-
Well as an un biased outsider to the series, his acting is terrible. He breaks me out of the show almost everything he's on screen. I don't buy his character at all, and can only see the gears turning. His least worse moments are when he is with Jake.
I actually agree with both of y'all. He's a terrible actor when he emotes. However, the character is good enough that I really only notice once or twice a season when they put him into an overly dramatic story. Far Beyond the Stars is an excellent example. As cool as the episode could have been, bad acting (from most of them) kind of blew it for me. The only one who was actually believable outside of their normal character was Terry Ferrel, and she only had one or two scenes.
-
Enterprise was awesome, Star Trek movies just don't have that feel the tv shows have.
Thankfully.
-
Why am I biased? I watched the show for a first time, too. Sisko was a big part of why I fell in love with the series back when it was first airing.
I wasn't saying that you are bias. I was referring to what you said about it being debated for years.
-
It's not bias, Brooks is likely just someone you'll see getting mentioned when people talk about both best and worst acting in Trek. I wouldn't call it love/hate, but his acting, whether whole or in spots, solicits arguments. I don't have a problem with your opinion, it's not an insignificant opinion among fans, I just disagree greatly, which is also not an insignificant opinion among fans.
-
The real question about Brooks is, how the fuck did he get that acting done when he's such a space cadet as seen in The Captains?
-
Avery Brooks was awesome. WTF are you guys all watching? ???
The real question about Brooks is, how the fuck did he get that acting done when he's such a space cadet as seen in The Captains?
I lost some respect for him after seeing this. He had to have been on something. The dude was a grade-A nut bar. What a waste of space that "interview" was.
-
I watched and interview with him and Odo the other day from the first season and he was a little weird then, too.
As for his acting, I recall that he wasn't real comfortable at first. They didn't want Hawk, so they had him grow some hair and shave the beard, which didn't sit well with him. During those first couple of seasons was when he was most bothersome. Once he did start to go back to the Hawk persona, he took on a tremendous amount of attitude (go figure) and that made him much more palatable to me. Like I said, I get why people might find him annoying, and I do at times, but once he developed Cisko to the point that we all associate with the character, I didn't have much of a problem with him.
Really, that's the deal with all of these guys. Very few of them are particularly good actors, but they are the characters as they create them. We had this discussion about Ezri Dax a couple of months ago. Most of the time she just was her character, since Ezri didn't exist outside of Nichole de Boer's characterization. It's not like she was trying to portray Eleanor Roosevelt or Michelle Obama. There's a point of reference there that raises the bar tremendously for an actor. In this case she just had to be Ezri, who she invented. She could have played Ezri completely differently and none of us would have known the difference. Her problem was that it often takes time for the characters to develop, which she didn't have.
In the case of Brooks and the other castmembers, where they usually fell short was when they portrayed people outside of their characters; like the aforementioned Far Beyond the Stars, or any of the Mirror Universe episodes. These sorts of episodes are always the ones the actors describe as "fun" because they get to do something different, but usually they're just not very good at it. Those Mirror Universe episodes just tended to be bad.
-
Shadows and Symbols worked with Brooks I thought, seemingly because he was partially playing himself in those hospital ward scenes :lol
-
(https://i.imgur.com/GwCvE2r.jpg)
-
Avery Brooks was awesome. WTF are you guys all watching? ???
The real question about Brooks is, how the fuck did he get that acting done when he's such a space cadet as seen in The Captains?
I lost some respect for him after seeing this. He had to have been on something. The dude was a grade-A nut bar. What a waste of space that "interview" was.
Brooks is eccentric and possibly not focused, but very intelligent. He might have been overplaying his hand, there. :lol That was kind of an exaggerated version of what you sometimes see from him.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/GwCvE2r.jpg)
The middle pic should be Kathleen Kennedy with loads of bags of cash.
-
Arrived at "The measure of a man", which I'm personally not too fond of. I appreciate what they were trying to do, but the question of Data being sentient or not was so brutally obvious from the first minute of the episode, the whole episode became a farce.
-
https://trailers.apple.com/trailers/paramount/startrekintodarkness/
new 30 second trailer.
includes new footage and some frankly incredible new shots of poor old Connie crashing :(
Cannot wait. I am gonna IMAX the shit out of this film.
-
I agree I-Max or bust!
-
I fuckin loved the first film but this looks like it will blow it out of the water.
This is gonna be so epic.
Bring on May 17 !
* I actually hope this film is 2.5 hours long. I really want a massive adventure that just doesn't stop upping the ante. :)
-
The 9 minute preview in I-Max was freeking stunning. Also Iron man II, DT and Rush Blu Ray. Mat is full of win!!
-
I avoided the 9 min trailer.
I don't want to see THAT much of the film ahead of time.
I want to go in knowing as little as possible. ( Apart from the broad strokes ).
-
It only gave us a hint to the basic plot line but it was visually stunning. Can't wait.
-
It's already February. I bet May will be here in no time. :)
-
No surprise here, but the clip they showed this evening made me think even worse of it than I already did. Looks absolutely awful.
-
Being a trailer, the clips have been nothing but crashes and explosions. The eye candy of this film is definitely going to be excellent, but I'd really like some indication that this movie is going to have an actual plot, something a little deeper than "grrrrr I'm a bad guy I hate the captain and the Federation for some flimsy reason everybody die" for a change. I'm hoping they come out with a trailer at some point that shows something deeper, now that they've wowed everyone with the visuals.
I'm going to be seeing this movie when it comes out regardless, but I'd like to feel a bit more optimistic that it's going to improve on the flaws of Trek XI (which I actually liked, but it's far from perfect).
-
A story would certainly be nice, but I'm not expecting one. I think any plot we might see will just be something to connect the explosions and the laser fights. That's all people care about. Why waste money on the cerebral when it's the eye candy that people want to see?
-
Being a trailer, the clips have been nothing but crashes and explosions. The eye candy of this film is definitely going to be excellent, but I'd really like some indication that this movie is going to have an actual plot, something a little deeper than "grrrrr I'm a bad guy I hate the captain and the Federation for some flimsy reason everybody die" for a change. I'm hoping they come out with a trailer at some point that shows something deeper, now that they've wowed everyone with the visuals.
I'm going to be seeing this movie when it comes out regardless, but I'd like to feel a bit more optimistic that it's going to improve on the flaws of Trek XI (which I actually liked, but it's far from perfect).
This, but I think this is a problem that's endemic to sci-fi or to American cinema in general rather than being specific to Star Trek. Gotta appeal to the LCD to take their money, after all.
-
Star Trek ( 2009 ) had way more plot than First Contact.
-
Being a trailer, the clips have been nothing but crashes and explosions. The eye candy of this film is definitely going to be excellent, but I'd really like some indication that this movie is going to have an actual plot, something a little deeper than "grrrrr I'm a bad guy I hate the captain and the Federation for some flimsy reason everybody die" for a change. I'm hoping they come out with a trailer at some point that shows something deeper, now that they've wowed everyone with the visuals.
I'm going to be seeing this movie when it comes out regardless, but I'd like to feel a bit more optimistic that it's going to improve on the flaws of Trek XI (which I actually liked, but it's far from perfect).
This, but I think this is a problem that's endemic to sci-fi or to American cinema in general rather than being specific to Star Trek. Gotta appeal to the LCD to take their money, after all.
Of course, which is why I'm trying not to read too much into the trailer at this point. They're trying to appeal to the general public, so I expect it's going to be just explosions. As usual, I'll set my expectations low and hope for the best.
-
Being a trailer, the clips have been nothing but crashes and explosions. The eye candy of this film is definitely going to be excellent, but I'd really like some indication that this movie is going to have an actual plot, something a little deeper than "grrrrr I'm a bad guy I hate the captain and the Federation for some flimsy reason everybody die" for a change. I'm hoping they come out with a trailer at some point that shows something deeper, now that they've wowed everyone with the visuals.
I'm going to be seeing this movie when it comes out regardless, but I'd like to feel a bit more optimistic that it's going to improve on the flaws of Trek XI (which I actually liked, but it's far from perfect).
This, but I think this is a problem that's endemic to sci-fi or to American cinema in general rather than being specific to Star Trek. Gotta appeal to the LCD to take their money, after all.
Of course, which is why I'm trying not to read too much into the trailer at this point. They're trying to appeal to the general public, so I expect it's going to be just explosions. As usual, I'll set my expectations low and hope for the best.
It's my general anger at this that has led me to write a sci-fi story in which I'm planning not to have explosions until the third to last chapter.
-
JJ is nowhere near Michael Bay's level of Explosions and Action over plot.
-
Perhaps not, but that's not really much of a statement.
-
IYO..
Or Gore Verbinski..
None of the Pirates Of The Caribbean sequels even HAVE a plot.
They're just set pieces linked together with pointless dialogue in oooh-arrr voices.
-
So I think I'm like 16 episodes into ToS. It's been OK, but things have been progressing slowly since I don't usually turn episodes on until I'm in bed and ready to fall asleep, and I usually that's what winds up happening within 10-20 minutes of the episode starting.
Kirk's character progression is funny. For the first handful of episodes, he was kinda a quite toughguy, but as the show goes on, you can definitely see him morphing into something more emotional. Him pleading with the kids on the Earth-like planet to obey him before getting the adult-death-disease was hilarious. So is pretty much any scene where he decides to get his game on with a lady.
-
IYO..
Or Gore Verbinski..
None of the Pirates Of The Caribbean sequels even HAVE a plot.
They're just set pieces linked together with pointless dialogue in oooh-arrr voices.
Which is still not saying anything about JJA. Just because he's not the worst about it doesn't mean that he's not guilty of it. Also, I'm not singling him out. I think almost all modern movies are heavy on explosions and light on substance, and he's just one of the culprits.
So I think I'm like 16 episodes into ToS. It's been OK, but things have been progressing slowly since I don't usually turn episodes on until I'm in bed and ready to fall asleep, and I usually that's what winds up happening within 10-20 minutes of the episode starting.
Kirk's character progression is funny. For the first handful of episodes, he was kinda a quite toughguy, but as the show goes on, you can definitely see him morphing into something more emotional. Him pleading with the kids on the Earth-like planet to obey him before getting the adult-death-disease was hilarious. So is pretty much any scene where he decides to get his game on with a lady.
Yeah, Miri was one of the single worst episodes they did. Awful. As for the rest of it, if you're not getting into it yet you probably never will. Plenty of people think the second and third seasons get progressively worse. Myself, I think they're all about the same. Either way, you're not going to see some huge improvement in quality coming up.
-
It's not that I don't like it. It's that I wait to long to turn it on, and then I fall asleep during the usual lull between the initial action and whatever build-up comes later. I'd actually file Miri in the "so bad it's good" category. I still plan on watching it all, but I no longer have any realistic expectations about how quickly that will happen.
-
It's not that I don't like it. It's that I wait to long to turn it on, and then I fall asleep during the usual lull between the initial action and whatever build-up comes later. I'd actually file Miri in the "so bad it's good" category. I still plan on watching it all, but I no longer have any realistic expectations about how quickly that will happen.
Wait til Melvin Beli shows up. Ye Gods!
-
BTW, shit like this is why I have to force myself to watch 'em all, no matter how long it takes
(https://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/6300000/-Space-Dog-The-Enemy-Within-star-trek-the-original-series-6352214-694-530.jpg)
-
Watched "Balance of Terror" last night. Excellent episode. Acting was pretty solid, as was the pacing until the end where it started to drag. But despite that, it was still pretty solid all-around. I do have a question, though: how are Romulans different than Vulcans? Spock seemed to suggest that they were an annoying offshoot of Vulcans, but he didn't go into detail, or I missed it. Anyway, an antagonistic empire on the outskirts of space is a cool thing. I hope the Romulans play more of a role in the show. The Enterprise encountering dangerous enemy ships is much more exciting than, say, dangerous geometric shapes.
You know, it's kinda weird. I realize the show is all about going to "where no man has gone before", but really it seems like after the first few episodes the Enterprise starts going back-and-forth between settlements on the outskirts of the universe, and places where maybe one or two men have gone before. Have people really had so little experience with Romulans that there entire space empire is unexplored and largely unknown by the Federation. Like, they're just some massive black hole on the fringes of the Federation's galaxy map?
-
You know, it's kinda weird. I realize the show is all about going to "where no man has gone before", but really it seems like after the first few episodes the Enterprise starts going back-and-forth between settlements on the outskirts of the universe, and places where maybe one or two men have gone before. Have people really had so little experience with Romulans that there entire space empire is unexplored and largely unknown by the Federation. Like, they're just some massive black hole on the fringes of the Federation's galaxy map?
It's best not to try and make sense out of TOS on a larger scale, as it really doesn't have any sense of continuity or logic of reality. The later series unfortunately had to try and dance around all of the problems you'll come across, but for now it's best to just accept that like any show, they were making it up as they went, and they had their hits and misses, not expecting that it was going to have to remain canonical for a further 700 episodes + 10 movies. :lol
And Romulans aren't too different to Vulcans physically (in later series, Romulans have a subtle forehead piece as well as the ears), but their philosophies and cultures differ significantly, hence the off-shoot. They don't follow the logical lifestyle of the Vulcans. Also take note of Mark Lenard who played the Romulan commander, who plays Spock's Father Sarek, in later TOS episodes (plus the movies). :tup He really did an excellent job of playing the part.
-
There's a two-part episode of TNG which gets more into the history of the Vulcans and the Romulans. They do come from the some original stock, and there are still movements on both sides which push for "reunification". Spock is even still around, and plays a part in it.
-
It's best not to try and make sense out of TOS on a larger scale, as it really doesn't have any sense of continuity or logic of reality. The later series unfortunately had to try and dance around all of the problems you'll come across, but for now it's best to just accept that like any show, they were making it up as they went, and they had their hits and misses, not expecting that it was going to have to remain canonical for a further 700 episodes + 10 movies. :lol
It's funny, I was just thinking the same thing about the newer ones. Technically, it's the latter series that blew off the canon because they liked there's better. What you call "dancing around," I'd call copping out. In the case of the Romulans, TNG, VOY and Enterprise all took some liberties as they wanted to do some stories that didn't jibe with TOS canon. Still, it's certainly true that GR didn't have any idea that he'd need to work in continuity that'd be over-analyzed by generations of nerds.
-
It's not a matter of "liking theirs better", it's that TOS didn't have internal consistency, and contradicted itself too many times to stick to religiously, whether they wanted to or not, not to mention that it's seriously dated. They had to take liberties.
It's hard to keep it consistent with our world and the TNG> era when you're trying to stick to a show that made future claims of eugenics wars and space travel in the 90s, and were fighting Romulans in space-submarines using muskets and radios etc, not to mention their antiquated attitudes towards several issues, and continuity problems and silly plots. It was always jarring seeing the TOS era in later shows and trying to pretend it was still in the "future" when you had those cheap brightly coloured wooden sets etc.
Mind you, not that I'm blaming them for any of this, as it was an old scifi show that they never expected to be scrutinized after 45+ years. I'm not going to blame them for writing an episode that got future history wrong, or because they could only make sets out of wood and paint and egg cartons, and had to find new ways to justify raiding the costume department for gladiator costumes every week, or because they were writing a show from a '60s viewpoint.
But on the other hand, it doesn't change the fact that TOS is full of problems because of it, and has at times become a serious liability to the franchise, and looks mostly silly when viewed today.
There is no way the later shows could have stuck 100% to TOS. They did the best they could with the material, and tried to quietly step around the rest. It's a shame Trek didn't at least start with the movies. Then we could still have gotten the TOS cast without the extra baggage.
-
Laziness.
It's hard to keep it consistent with our world and the TNG> era when you're trying to stick to a show that made future claims of eugenics wars and space travel in the 90s, and were fighting Romulans in space-submarines using muskets and radios etc, not to mention their antiquated attitudes towards several issues, and continuity problems and silly plots. It was always jarring seeing the TOS era in later shows and trying to pretend it was still in the "future" when you had those cheap brightly coloured wooden sets etc.
It might be hard to do, but that's what writers exist for. The fact of the matter is that just because you come up with a story you like doesn't mean that it's feasible to make it. Rather than just making stories that don't related to established canon, write stories that do.
-
Guys, I just wanted to know a bit more about the Romulans. I had no idea what seems like such a straightforward question would launch a TOS vs TNG debate, lol.
I can see I'm going to have a good time posting my thoughts in here, as I slowly make my way through the Star Trek uni. :D
-
Why would you force yourself to stick to a wonky and antiquated canon that wasn't even consistent with itself though, at the show's expense?
Writers exist to write good television, not to stick to canon to a fault for the sake of the "overanalyzing angry nerds" you speak of. IMO they stuck to TOS a lot more than they should have, and I applaud them for stretching it as far as they did to make it work at all.
Guys, I just wanted to know a bit more about the Romulans. I had no idea what seems like such a straightforward question would launch a TOS vs TNG debate, lol.
I can see I'm going to have a good time posting my thoughts in here, as I slowly make my way through the Star Trek uni. :D
:lol Have fun. And I think of it more as TOS vs itself, really. :P
-
Thankfully, inconsistencies don't bother me so much. I'm a big fan of the unreliable narrator theory. Since every episode is more or less supposed to be from Kirk's Captain's Log, I can just explain anything that doesn't make sense away as being lazy, using dramatic license, or just plain making shit up.
-
Why would you force yourself to stick to a wonky and antiquated canon that wasn't even consistent with itself though, at the show's expense?
Writers exist to write good television, not to stick to canon to a fault for the sake of the "overanalyzing angry nerds" you speak of. IMO they stuck to TOS a lot more than they should have, and I applaud them for stretching it as far as they did to make it work at all.
I agree. Don't like the canon? Don't stick to it. My point is that it's not TOS's fault that subsequent series decided to blow it off. You guys act as if GR got it all wrong in 1968, because his successors decided to bend it to fit their purposes.
It's best not to try and make sense out of TOS on a larger scale, as it really doesn't have any sense of continuity or logic of reality. The later series unfortunately had to try and dance around all of the problems you'll come across
The origin of the Romulans wasn't a problem for TOS. It only became one when Berman and Pillar wanted to make stories that didn't tie in consistently.
-
EB, I think TOS was way more guilty of contradicting itself than any later series. I think it was just a plain function of TOS trying to be a completely episodic series with little to no continuity from one episode to the next.
-
Why would you force yourself to stick to a wonky and antiquated canon that wasn't even consistent with itself though, at the show's expense?
Writers exist to write good television, not to stick to canon to a fault for the sake of the "overanalyzing angry nerds" you speak of. IMO they stuck to TOS a lot more than they should have, and I applaud them for stretching it as far as they did to make it work at all.
I agree. Don't like the canon? Don't stick to it. My point is that it's not TOS's fault that subsequent series decided to blow it off. You guys act as if GR got it all wrong in 1968, because his successors decided to bend it to fit their purposes.
It's not just a matter of just deciding to blow it off. IMO they had to ignore certain elements, because some things just outright contradicted other things, and other things were so ridiculous by modern standards that it would have made for laughable television to try and stick to some of the things established in a '60s TV show.
You act like they could have feasibly stuck 100% to TOS without any problems whatsoever, when that's not the case at all. For the most part, they stuck as much to TOS as possible under the circumstances (they actually stuck too closely at times), and anything they ignored was usually for a very good reason.
For the record, I have to clarify that I'm ignoring Enterprise here for "sticking to TOS", since that obviously deviated a lot. And again, for very good reason. Can you imagine a scifi space show from the 2000s set before TOS and sticking completely to everything TOS said? If that even warrants further explanation, then we're done here. :lol
-
EB, I think TOS was way more guilty of contradicting itself than any later series. I think it was just a plain function of TOS trying to be a completely episodic series with little to no continuity from one episode to the next.
It was certainly episodic, and like I've said all along, I think Roddenberry was a menace. My only issue is casting all the blame for continuity on TOS rather than the subsequent series that dismissed it; regardless of their reasoning. In the case at point, there wasn't anything wrong with the Romulan stories in TOS that needed remedying later. It was Pillar and Berman who decided to monkey around with it because they wanted to so some crossover stories with the Vulcans.
-
I was surprised that the Romulans were basically Vulcans with weird culture in ToS since I've always seen them being darker skinned and with tatoos and peircings. ToS Romulans are definitely more "Roman" like.
-
As for his acting, I recall that he wasn't real comfortable at first. They didn't want Hawk, so they had him grow some hair and shave the beard, which didn't sit well with him. During those first couple of seasons was when he was most bothersome. Once he did start to go back to the Hawk persona, he took on a tremendous amount of attitude (go figure) and that made him much more palatable to me. Like I said, I get why people might find him annoying, and I do at times, but once he developed Cisko to the point that we all associate with the character, I didn't have much of a problem with him.
I don't think he was ever too Hawk-like in the role. They were only worried about the looks, not the parts. He always had the similar presence exuding from him, but from what I've seen from Hawk he was always more slick or mysterious. Sisko was more ominous and troubled. The troubled part slowly lessened over the years, though, which made the character come off more relaxed. Whenever I see Hawk clips I never think Sisko.
-
Since we've brought up The Captains doc and Brooks, I thought this might be interesting to people...
https://youtu.be/r2inR7gDKSI
https://youtu.be/Y6xM4txpwQ0
...all 5 captains at a panel last year. For what it's worth, Shatner and Brooks pat one or the other on the arm or back in a few spots. The interview couldn't have been too bad between the two. :lol
https://www.gamespot.com/news/shatner-brooks-bakula-convene-captains-summit-6324935
I also didn't know that the interview caused Shatner to ask Brooks to provide music for the doc.
edit: https://youtu.be/ontsF9CAFdI
:rollin
Shatner answers a question singing and tries to get Brooks to sing along! Brooks literally :rollin's.
-
Watching Shore leave now.
Is this for real, or does limoncello just really fuck you up?
Also, where the FUCK is Yeoman Rand and who is this chick in her place?
-
Watching Shore leave now.
Is this for real, or does limoncello just really fuck you up?
Also, where the FUCK is Yeoman Rand and who is this chick in her place?
They sacked Grace Lee Whitney after about 12 episodes. Officially because they didn't want one woman always around Kirk. Unofficially because GLW was a drunk, drugged out floozie.
And yeah, I hear Lemoncello does really fuck you up.
-
Rand was axed, yeah, and only had a few cameos in the movies later. Apparently she was an alcoholic back in the day, which didn't help.
-
Rand was axed, yeah, and only had a few cameos in the movies later. Apparently she was an alcoholic back in the day, which didn't help.
Didn't she confess to sleeping with fans at conventions for extra money???
-
I certainly would have done a first-season yeomen Rand. But! I would think conventions appeared decades later, in which case, nah.
-
I certainly would have done a first-season yeomen Rand. But! I would think conventions appeared decades later, in which case, nah.
The first ST conventions were in the mid 70's...
-
Speaking of conventions (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x930vt_william-shatner-snl-skit-get-a-life_fun#.URHlWPIq5AI), I don't think this has been posted in here yet, though it does seem somewhat applicable.
As for GLW, it seems that she was doing a little crank trying to stay fit for TV when she got sacked. After that she went into what she now calls Lindsay Lohan mode, and spent 10 years being completely out of control. I didn't get the impression that her issues led to her getting canned, but were really more of a consequence. She also went on to say that she didn't start doing the conventions until after TMP, by which point she'd pulled herself out of the gutter, so banging trekies for meth-money probably wasn't happening.
-
Rand was axed, yeah, and only had a few cameos in the movies later. Apparently she was an alcoholic back in the day, which didn't help.
Didn't she confess to sleeping with fans at conventions for extra money???
I've done some research too. She doesn't confess to that, and doesn't confess to being a boozer either, but instead claims she was assaulted.
I really don't know. The Enterprise is less awesome without her, though.
-
I thought she had said that in some "tell all" book. I actually shouldn't even post such damning questions....that's how stupid rumors get started. :-\
-
I thought she had said that in some "tell all" book. I actually shouldn't even post such damning questions....that's how stupid rumors get started. :-\
She verified her alcoholism in the 80s, but in her "tell all" book she rejected it, and claimed to have been sexually assaulted by an anonymous executive.
It really could have been either. It was the 60s, man.
-
(https://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/248/4/d/tetsuko___mirror_janice_rand_by_dcmatthews-d48z0hg.jpg)
This doesn't even parse in my brain.
-
What. The. What. :|
Where did you even find that? :lol
-
Comes up when you search for "Janice Rand" pics on Google. Interestingly also brings up a pic of Nicole de Boer on 5/8 Forums!
-
That's probably just tied to your search history on Google.
-
Some new images:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/07/more-new-star-trek-into-darkness-images?abthid=5113e4fca8760ecf4d000051 (https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/07/more-new-star-trek-into-darkness-images?abthid=5113e4fca8760ecf4d000051)
However that's not the interesting part. Do this: Scroll down to the Entertanment Weekly cover and look at Kirk (Chris Pine). First cover the eye to the right at look at the left eye, which clearly has eye contact with the camera. But if you then cover the eye to the left and look at the right eye, is that just me who thinks that that eye is looking below the camera and a bit to the left?
Asymmetric face is asymmetric.
-
Man, I just wish Abrams didn't lay on the "primary color"ing so heavily. 5 years from now that style will look really dated and tacky.
-
Most of that stuff about Whitney is true, the abuse and the fast living. Apparently she is living well now, so that is good. Rand has to be a Gene invention, as she is the type of crew member he’d want on his ship if he was captain.
Cumberbatch is the only reason I am even moderately interested in this movie. And the set design…..:vomit: Maybe I have the Nick Meyer mindset that this is a submarine in space and it should be dark with tight corridors and cramped quarters. It’s like this is trying too hard to look ‘futuristic.’
-
The part I don't like about this style is that it doesn't make me believe that hundreds of people will ride in this thing for years on end. It looks like a candy store, and after the sugar rush wears off you get really tired off it. I thought DS9 and ENT were the best in making the ship/station look like you could actually live in it.
-
Yeah, imagine the size of the cleaning crew for that Galaxy class ship. The entire thing was carpeted. You had big plastic com-panels every 10' that had to be fingerprint magnets. There were at minimum 13 cats aboard. Kids breaking shit all the time. I don't think we ever caught a glimpse of somebody sweeping or cleaning, or even a damn Roomba.
-
You know, I think that's why there's that extended length scene of the Enterprise floating across the camera in TMP. Watching TOS, you get the sense that the Enterprise is a really tiny ship. It's obviously not supposed to be, and TNG does do a much better job of reminding you the amount of people who happen to be on it.
-
Yeah, the Archer Enterprise and the Defiant seemed like the two most reasonable ships. Kind of cramped, not much for luxury, designed with a purpose other than being a community.
-
Whereas Piccard's Enterprise was a cruise ship. Hell, during the first season they all even dressed like it.
-
Whereas Piccard's Enterprise was a cruise ship. Hell, during the first season they all even dressed like it.
https://trekspace.ning.com/video/1977635:Video:103407
-
Egads! That was both horrible and awesome at the same time.
-
Whereas Piccard's Enterprise was a cruise ship. Hell, during the first season they all even dressed like it.
https://trekspace.ning.com/video/1977635:Video:103407
Man, as soon as I read Barto's post, I tried to find that video, but alas, I couldn't.
Thankfully, the other noble born in this thread proved more successful. :)
-
Yeah, imagine the size of the cleaning crew for that Galaxy class ship. The entire thing was carpeted. You had big plastic com-panels every 10' that had to be fingerprint magnets. There were at minimum 13 cats aboard. Kids breaking shit all the time. I don't think we ever caught a glimpse of somebody sweeping or cleaning, or even a damn Roomba.
We did see the ship being sterilized and Riker once said the ship cleans itself.
-
I watched that skit a 1000 times. Too damn funny.
-
Man, I just wish Abrams didn't lay on the "primary color"ing so heavily. 5 years from now that style will look really dated and tacky.
Yet another article saying he's Khan with no proof or evidence.
-
You know, not that there's a point in analyzing these things, but it never made much sense that Betazoids could speak.
-
You know, not that it makes much sense to analyze these things, but it never made much sense that Betazoids could speak.
I think evolutionally speaking (is that even a word?), they would have evolved to speak first (they were probably pretty much human at some point), then developed the telepathic powers over time, although it perhaps doesn't make much sense that they bother to still speak now that they don't need to. You better believe that if I could communicate with less work, I would take it.
But the same problem seems to hold true for all telepathic species in scifi. Then you just get the cliche condescending contrivance of "oh we can speak, we just don't unless we're talking to a lesser species and have to".
I may or may not watch too much scifi.
-
Maybe they speak like crap and we hear the universal translator. :p
-
Maybe some are only empathic like Deanna and has to have her mother Lwaxana project into her thoughts or whatever.
Is it ever explained why Deanna is only Empathic ? Human Father perchance ?
-
I forgot she was half human. Are there more truly alien crew members in Trek or heavily human ones? Spock and Deanna are mixed, but you also have Worf raised by humans, Odo actually was a human for awhile, holodoc modeled after a human, an android attempting to be human, and a Borg human. Miss anyone? The franchise really overplays that card to draw empathy, that must be half the alien main cast.
I never got why they made Odo human and not Bajoran.
-
I never got why they made Odo human and not Bajoran.
It was punishment, and they though rather poorly of humans. I think they were rather indifferent to Bajorans. I don't know as Odo had any preference.
Maybe they speak like crap and we hear the universal translator. :p
This actually is a possibility. Remember when the Ferengi were on Earth without their UT's? I think we're just supposed to accept that we hear English whether they speak it or not.
-
Maybe Odo couldn't get those finicky nose ridges right. :)
-
It know it was punishment, but they said he always wanted to be human, or somethinglike that. Odo would want to be Bajoran in all liklihhos, and he could have been biologically Bajoran without the nose ridges. It wasn't really a human face they stuck him with, but he was human.
-
I'm watching "Conundrum", where Riker has to choose between Troie and Ro Laren. Damn, Ro Laren all the way,
-
I'm watching "Conundrum", where Riker has to choose between Troie and Ro Laren. Damn, Ro Laren all the way,
If we were deciding between the actors, then Michelle Forbes all the way (she still look good), but I couldn't stand her in the show at the time with that horrible short hair and deadpan-angst attitude. Dreadful character.
-
I always liked Ro Laren (what's wrong with her hair, it works well for her), and the Bajoran aspects of TNG. Their species always seemed to have an appeal beyond others. Maybe they just felt more real in a world with so much optimism. It's probably a reason I was initially drawn to DS9.
It's interesting, DS9 took two of the great creations of TNG, the Cardassians and Bajorans, and kept it alive. Then they took one of TNG's worst creations, the Ferengi, and turned it on its head to give them appeal. It seems so odd to think about how I was upset that DS9 had a Ferengi regular. :lol
-
I'm watching "Conundrum", where Riker has to choose between Troie and Ro Laren. Damn, Ro Laren all the way,
If we were deciding between the actors, then Michelle Forbes all the way (she still look good), but I couldn't stand her in the show at the time with that horrible short hair and deadpan-angst attitude. Dreadful character.
I'm strictly talking Michelle Forbes vs. Marina Sirtis :lol And there Michelle wins for sure.
Agree that her character was rather abrasive.
-
It's interesting, DS9 took two of the great creations of TNG, the Cardassians and Bajorans, and kept it alive. Then they took one of TNG's worst creations, the Ferengi, and turned it on its head to give them appeal. It seems so odd to think about how I was upset that DS9 had a Ferengi regular. :lol
I wouldn't consider the Bajorans and Cardassians TNG creations, per se. They were obviously introduced on TNG, but I always gathered they were created specifically to form the basis for DS9. As I recall, nobody have ever heard of the Cardassians until they were suddenly a huge deal, with lots of retconning. The war O'Brian fought in, for example. Certainly they knew where they were going when the Bajorans showed up, I believe with Enign Ro (the episode).
I'm watching "Conundrum", where Riker has to choose between Troie and Ro Laren. Damn, Ro Laren all the way,
I certainly agree, but it's wroth noting that there were occasionally instances where Troi was actually fairly attractive, and they were always when she was out of character (and therefore not whiny and annoying), and that was one of them.
-
Both Cardassians and Bajorans were created by TNG for TNG.
The idea that would become DS9 was not even discussed in Trek production until 1991, but the episode introducing Cardassians was likely produced and filmed in 1990. It took them some time to settle on what DS9 would be, too, so the timing doesn't even come close to lining up. Retconning in a history is hardly unusual, especially since O'Brien had no history at that point. I don't think that's the only past war TNG stuck in for an episode.
Besides, the Cardassians couldn't have been created for DS9 because we no absolutely the Bajorans weren't. Straight from the DS9 creators, they chose Bajor as the setting because of Ro Laren, not the other way around. They had hoped Forbes might join the cast, too.
-
I'll buy that about the Cardassians, due to the dates. The Bajorans weren't mentioned until DS9 would have been well into the planning stages, though.
-
They didn't settle on a setting for some time through the planning stages. When Roddenbury died the show was still in it's infancy of planning, that was the same time Ro was first introduced. Berman, "Michael (Piller) and I discussed it with Gene when we were still in the early stages, but never anything conceptual." By the time they had concepts he also says, Roddenbury was too far gone to discuss it. All they started with was for it to be a western in space, not much more. Picking a setting and all the details of what the show would be about took them some time. DS9 did not air for another 15 months after her introduction and Roddenbury's death, production was still quite a ways off. The DS9 creators directly say they picked Bajor because of Ro Laren. I have never seen anybody involved say Ro Laren or Bajor were created with DS9 in mind. Ro Laren was conceived in trying to find someone to provide conflict iwthin the TNG crew. If Ro Laren had been conceived for DS9 and they wanted her as a cast, don't you think they would have had a contract option in place before introducing her on TNG?
Nothing directly points to Bajorans being created for DS9. The sole clue anyone has is that DS9 was first broached as an idea in 1991 and Ro was introduced in October 1991.
-
Holy shit, has any of you read the Wikipedia article on the actor of Alexander, Brian Bonsall? Damn, what a "career".
-
Just read it then.
And I didn't realize he was that little kid on Family Ties too.
-
It's weird. I often forget how old TNG is. When I saw that Worf's kid was 31, and BVD mentioned him being of Family Ties, I assumed he was one of those Gary Coleman, stopped growing types. Took a minute to realize that Family Ties and TNG were of the same era. I guess because it doesn't really look all that different from DS9 or Voyager, it just doesn't register as being that old to me. I often forget that I was a sophomore in high school when it debuted.
And since it's hard to picture Alexander smashing a barstool over somebody (although quite comical in theory), here's a couple of mugshots:
(https://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=151034&stc=1&d=1250218307)
(https://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/v0vKNH74MH6_z7uRHW1ZTQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD03OTc7cT04NTtzbT0xO3c9NjMw/https://l.yimg.com/os/289/2012/04/16/BrianBonsall-MugShot120809-jpg_230520.jpg)
-
Watched "Arena". Holy lol
-
Romulan ale should be illegal.
-
So last night I watched "Trek Nation" on Netflix which is a documentary film put together by Gene Roddenberry's son. Anyone else seen this? Pretty darned good, and insightful.
-
Watching the TNG episode right now where Troi gets transformed into a Romulan. Good God, what a contrived premise. It makes zero sense that they would need a Starfleet officer for the mission, and even less that one could pass for a Tal Shiar member.
-
Been a while since I've seen it, but I do recall Troi actually not being a waste of space character in that episode, and doing something.
I can't remember enough of it to comment on the rest though.
-
So Panda and I are working through season 1 of TNG.... just got through the episode where Tasha Yar died. It made me feel good... does that make me a horrible person? :lol
I dislike her character....
-
So Panda and I are working through season 1 of TNG.... just got through the episode where Tasha Yar died. It made me feel good... does that make me a horrible person? :lol
I dislike her character....
My friend made me watch TNG on DVD, and I hated her with a passion, and would say nasty things every single time she appeared on screen, and wished that she would die (things which would no doubt be against the forum rules to repeat :lol ). He never said anything.
Then it got to that episode and she died, and I got super excited, and he said "I didn't want to spoil that for you."
Best friend ever.
-
SO I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE!??!?!?!
*/
-
Watched "Arena". Holy lol
I watched original Star Trek way back in the 70's in grade school. Years later, I got into reading sci-fi and read the original short story "Arena" in an anthology of some kind. Never made the connection. Then years later again, I caught the TOS episode "Arena" again, and I :omg:
The original short story is :metal
The Star Trek episode is :lol
He never said anything.
Then it got to that episode and she died, and I got super excited, and he said "I didn't want to spoil that for you."
Best friend ever.
Your friend is awesome! :hat
-
They dumped so much PTSD and masculinity complex into that character, it was just annoying. I feel bad for Denise Crosby, even her Playboy pictures are painful to look at. That hairdo!
-
I wonder why she came back as a Romulan anyway...
-
I wonder why she came back as a Romulan anyway...
$$$
-
Then why did she leave ? xD
-
Becuase she's stupid just like her character. The best episode was when Data fucked her. I wonder if he shot silicone lubricant in her?
-
Becuase she's stupid just like her character. The best episode was when Data fucked her. I wonder if he shot silicone lubricant in her?
:lol
(https://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/celebdatabase/camerondiaz/cameron_diaz7_180_240.jpg)
-
Some new info revealed via early press screening in Brazil :
SPOILERS
Peter Weller is playing Carol Marcus' father.
Cumberbatch is Harrison the whole way through the film. No Batman style Khan reveal. ( final nail in coffin for Khan fanboys ! ).
Film no longer opens with hospital scene. Now opens with volcano / Prime Directive scene.
Explosion in London caused by Noel Clarke's character.
Kirk loses command and Pike regains Captaincy of Enterprise.
-
All New Trailer Released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RxZcxkFZZP0
I'll just leave it here so every one can rip it to shreds saying how it's just action and no story because First Contact totes wasn't all action and no plot at all.
;D
-
That trailer was awesome. One thing I noticed was that everything looks darker, I love that. I generally like darker movies.
EDIT: And by darker here I mean color wise.
-
Well, at least JJ won't have any trouble directing the Star Wars movie seeing as it looks like he's working on one right now. :neverusethis:
I dunno. The trailers for the last Star Trek got me pretty pumped, these leave me feeling cold for some reason. After all the various leaks, teasers, trailers and pictures I am no more excited now than I was when the first bits of information got out. My friends will likely drag me to see this, but I won't actively petition for it.
Oh and First Contact had a plot, it was just a stupid plot.
-
So, some theaters here in Boston will show the remastered version of "Best of both worlds". Got my ticket, I'm pumped. That should be one hell of a movie experience.
-
That trailer was awesome. One thing I noticed was that everything looks darker, I love that. I generally like darker movies.
EDIT: And by darker here I mean color wise.
Yeah - dark in colour palette and tone is good. :)
-
So, some theaters here in Boston will show the remastered version of "Best of both worlds". Got my ticket, I'm pumped. That should be one hell of a movie experience.
I'm just gonna say it:
The Best of Both Worlds Part 1 = the best cliffhanger ever
I love the way the music slowly builds as the camera pans towards Riker. Then the words: "Mr. Worf.... fire." Fucking chill inducing, even after all these years.
-
That was definitely a pretty awesome moment. One of the best.
-
That new trailer actually put me off a bit. It's still just the same over the top explosions and jumping out into space for no reason etc etc. PLOT PLEASE.
And apparently Australia is getting the movie before the US? So yeah, yay for me. :biggrin:
-
That new trailer actually put me off a bit. It's still just the same over the top explosions and jumping out into space for no reason etc etc. PLOT PLEASE.
And apparently Australia is getting the movie before the US? So yeah, yay for me. :biggrin:
May 9th in the UK :)
-
That new trailer actually put me off a bit. It's still just the same over the top explosions and jumping out into space for no reason etc etc. PLOT PLEASE.
And apparently Australia is getting the movie before the US? So yeah, yay for me. :biggrin:
May 9th in the UK :)
The article I saw from startrek.com said that UK/Germany/Australia open a week earlier than the US, although it didn't give the specific dates. imdb still lists Australia as the 16th and the UK as the 17th, so that's no help.
But the important thing is that we'll see it first. :hifive:
-
So, some theaters here in Boston will show the remastered version of "Best of both worlds". Got my ticket, I'm pumped. That should be one hell of a movie experience.
Hope you enjoy it, it's not being shown anywhere near me. I will have to settle for the Blu-Ray.
-
But the important thing is that we'll see it first. :hifive:
Bonzer ! :hifive:
It's out in the UK for IMAX 3D on May 9th :) So that's when I'll go.
-
So it looks like there actually is one scene where they where Starfleet uniforms. I suppose it's another action movie convention that everybody has to wear badass looking outfits all the time, either leather or black, and ideally both.
-
Starfleet officers in : " Wearing Starfleet uniform Shock. "
-
Watching TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise".
So much rage seeing Tasha Yar >:(
-
Really? One of my favorite episodes, partially because it has the Yar cameo.
-
If anything that episode goes a long way towards redeeming the character. Which is no small feat, let me tell you. :lol
-
Meh she just bugs me. I admit her appearing in this episode wasn't -as bad- but still... I can't wait for her to go back to being dead.
-
The cool thing about Yar reappearing in "Yesterday's Enterprise" is that it led to Sela, who I thought was actually a pretty cool character, as well as a living, breathing paradox.
-
Yeah, nobody was happier to see her die stupidly than me, but she was alright once they brought her back. Considerably less annoying, and only around in small doses. And Sela was a pretty good character.
-
Enterprise C. :censored
What an ugly ship !
-
Enterprise C. :censored
What an ugly ship !
I know right!
Okay now on the first Barkley episode. The look on Riker's face when Picard called him Broccoli = :rollin
-
I loved when TNG had actual jokes.
They were so rare that when they did happen it was so unexpected and it made it even funnier.
Like the time when Picard was mocking Wesley when Beverly left the Enterprise saying " Who's going to tuck you in now ? "
And Worf sighs and says " I will do it. "
-
There's one scene where it's Riker's birthday, and when being asked what he wants for his birthday, he says "trombone lessons". The way they laugh afterwards always struck me as genuine cracking up, as if they just took the take in which Frakes did a stupid joke on the set.
-
True! Those lighter moments on TNG were so rare and unexpected. But to me, they made the characters more believeable. After serving together for years and years, there are times when it's not all business, even in a pseudo-military (or whatever the heck Star Fleet was) environment.
-
I loved when TNG had actual jokes.
They were so rare that when they did happen it was so unexpected and it made it even funnier.
Like the time when Picard was mocking Wesley when Beverly left the Enterprise saying " Who's going to tuck you in now ? "
And Worf sighs and says " I will do it. "
I'm pretty sure that's the same episode where Pulaski is calling Data " Datta " and asking him what the difference is..
Data casually replies " One is my name. "
Then turns away from her and says " the other is not. "
A perfect comedy delivery.
-
I never took that line as being funny. I thought Data was being dead serious. A person's name is not just a word, to be pronounced however you feel like saying it or however people say it where you come from. It's an identifier, and there is a correct way to say it, and any other way is wrong.
The payoff comes at the end of the episode, after Dr. Pulaski has come to respect Data, and she makes a point of pronouncing his name correctly.
-
Ya know... I didn't like her until like the last 2-3 episodes. Then I kinda missed her when Gates McFadden came back
-
I never made that transition. I didn't like her McCoy character all the way through and cried hallelujah when Crusher was back.
-
Yesterday I watched the DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" episode, where the whole crew are real-life characters in the 1940s and Sisko is a pulp magazine writer. Man, took me aaaages to figure out who the hell that cartoonist was!
-
Watching Qpid right now and the scene where Worf smashes the mandolin and Troi shoots data with an arrow had me rolling.
-
Have you ever seen the movie "Animal House"? Worf smashing the mandolin is taken directly from that movie. Still pretty funny though.
I liked Data getting shot with the arrow. He just stands there.
-
"I am NOT a merry man!"
:lol
-
Yesterday I watched the DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" episode, where the whole crew are real-life characters in the 1940s and Sisko is a pulp magazine writer. Man, took me aaaages to figure out who the hell that cartoonist was!
I figured it out instantly. That voice, man! I'm good at spotting voices, so maybe that helped. It was really fun seeing everyone out of make-up.
-
"I am NOT a merry man!"
:lol
-
Recently I've been thinking about rewatchign DS9. Just came across a gem that reminded my of how awesome Garak is. It was the scene with him and Ezri approaches him and offers her help.
Putting Nicole de Boer next to Robinson was just not fair to her, especially at this point in her career, imo. Sure, she didn't have much dialogue and no response but her face says it all.
It would have been awesome if there was a Garak spin-off show.
-
Two funniest ST moments: When Geordie suggests using a phaser's stun setting to train spot the cat. That really cracked me up, and it's actually a pretty fine idea, to boot. The other was the episode where Q's obnoxious kid was tormenting Aunt Cathy. At one point she and Q are arguing, and Q says something like "look how well you were able to house-train your pet Borg," and Janeway incredulously says "THAT TOOK YEARS" before realizing what she was saying and trailing off. Absolutely perfect delivery on her part.
-
Just watched DS9's "Valiant", where a Defiant-class ship is run by young cadets. Looked up the rather cute First Officer (Courtney Peldon) and man, talk about another sad actor's career. Started out as a pretty girl, but then got nose job, a ridiculous boo job etc.;
https://www.celebrityplasticsurgery.tv/courtney-peldons-plastic-efforts
-
Sad. She was cute.
-
She was awesome in the ABC Afterschool Special Me and my Hormones. :lol
Her resume suggests that she was eeking out a comfortable living doing TV shows. Shame she wasn't content with that. I suspect part of the problem is that (based solely on her performance in Valiant) the girl just can't act.
-
Ick, that nose is a horrible change. ...both were horrible changes. She went from attractive to sort of disgusting looking.
The biggest wow on here, though, is I never made the connection that between her DS9 part and her recurring Home Improvement part.
-
It could be worse. She could be Joan Rivers or Jackie Stallone.
-
Yum. Ezri Dax just appeared for the first time. I heart Nole de Boer.
-
I c.
-
New trailer with more Cumberbatch. More plot in this one, and even an appearance by Peter Weller!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yhz4A5BCMAA
-
I like it !
Here's a quick idea I threw together for Star Trek 3 / 13
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/05b778f729ef846d5f400e1c57e1a36a/tumblr_mk13ytXMZC1s8ltoto1_1280.png)
I thought it would make a good title . They *need* to do an exploration movie at least once. Not just Bad Guy On A Vendetta AGAIN.
Plus it needs to be out in 2016 to tie in with the 50th anniversary.
Plus they seriously need to use that title somehow !! :P
-
Maybe one of these days they'll once again make a Star Trek movie that doesn't follow the same plot of "Bad guy against the captain and the Federation, trying to destroy stuff just because explosions are cool". While the TOS movies weren't always great, at least they didn't repeat the exact same plot every single time.
And I'm fully aware of the irony of the fact that the best TOS movie is indeed the one where it is just a bad guy against the captain trying to destroy stuff. :lol But it had some history built in, and they did it well and it set the bar. The others have been weaker attempts to recapture that.
-
I liked Data getting shot with the arrow. He just stands there.
And they're totally inconsistent with that stuff.
I recall Troi accidentally piercing his skin with some blunt object and he mentions that some part of him is damaged and he is need of repair, but when First Contact comes along he can just take bullets like he's Superman. Maybe they upgraded his skeleton in between without telling us, but still.
-
Looks dreadful, but holy cow that blond chick's hot.
-
I'm excited if only for her and Benedict Cumberbatch. The delivery and look on his face as he says, "You have no idea what you have done. I will walk over your cold corpses", gives me chills.
-
I like it !
Here's a quick idea I threw together for Star Trek 3 / 13
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/05b778f729ef846d5f400e1c57e1a36a/tumblr_mk13ytXMZC1s8ltoto1_1280.png)
I thought it would make a good title . They *need* to do an exploration movie
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-io8bLDgI7yM/UOCu0KQr2ZI/AAAAAAAAAXY/IXJ3uFg_8wY/s1600/star+trek+5+poster.jpg)
;)
-
That trailer made me kinda unexcited for this one. BTW, didn't JJ say at one point that he was toying with the idea of an exploration film? He must've tried hacking it with his screenwriters and then threw up his arms and said, "Fuck it, let's just stick a renegade in there."
-
I liked Data getting shot with the arrow. He just stands there.
And they're totally inconsistent with that stuff.
I recall Troi accidentally piercing his skin with some blunt object and he mentions that some part of him is damaged and he is need of repair, but when First Contact comes along he can just take bullets like he's Superman. Maybe they upgraded his skeleton in between without telling us, but still.
That's typical of a long-running series with lots of writers and no single person overseeing all the scripts. Or just the fact that it's a long-running series can lead to inconsistencies, just because they don't watch the details as closely as the fans do.
The arrow was for comedic effect, but the bullets... yeah, that's a problem.
-
Plenty of bullet proof vests will stop small caliber weapons fire like what she was shooting at him, but fail horribly against knives and arrows that can cut through the fibers. If Data is made of a composite material, then it's conceivable that he's more resistant to bullets than arrows.
But yea, that was just laziness on their part. I suspect the TV writers keep better tabs on things like that than the movie writers, who are more focused on the overall plot, holes be damned.
-
I like it !
Here's a quick idea I threw together for Star Trek 3 / 13
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/05b778f729ef846d5f400e1c57e1a36a/tumblr_mk13ytXMZC1s8ltoto1_1280.png)
I thought it would make a good title . They *need* to do an exploration movie
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-io8bLDgI7yM/UOCu0KQr2ZI/AAAAAAAAAXY/IXJ3uFg_8wY/s1600/star+trek+5+poster.jpg)
;)
OMFG THE ENTERPRISE IN A STAR TREK POSTER MY GOD MAN
-
I'm excited if only for her and Benedict Cumberbatch. The delivery and look on his face as he says, "You have no idea what you have done. I will walk over your cold corpses", gives me chills.
I dunno - the way he delivers it - you can tell he's a TV actor somehow.
-
Plenty of bullet proof vests will stop small caliber weapons fire like what she was shooting at him, but fail horribly against knives and arrows that can cut through the fibers. If Data is made of a composite material, then it's conceivable that he's more resistant to bullets than arrows.
1) Bullets or not, it's inconsistent. He just sat there with the arrow, not even acknowledging that it could, like the other time, damage him. The joke for that episode was that arrows don't really do anything to him.
Oh and I'd forgotten that there were a couple episodes where he was held at bay by someone holding a gun. At no point did anyone say "Oh Data, good thing we had those bullet-proof upgrades for you."
2) We're talking about the 24th Century. He's got everything suped up to the max compared to today. Everything, except dealing with the occasional knife-like object.
-
I don't think it's necessarily inconsistent. The army has been researching materials that are soft and pliable to low impact, but essentially become an armor for high-impact objects. That way it feels normal and soft under everyday interactions, but is bullet-proof at the same time.
Fuck, who's to say that Data can't change the firmness of his outer shell on demand? He was not expecting the arrow, but he surely was expecting the bullets.
-
Just watched that trailer. To me it just shows everything that is bad about scifi movies (with the exception of "monsters" ripping people apart for the lols) and everything that isn't really Star Trek put together in 2 minutes.
I was OK with the first one being more generic but expected this one to have more of the soul of ST in it and so far it seems to lack one at all.
Every time I see Spock and Kirk in the reboot I cringe for some reason, I'd love if this movie was shot under the POV of Benedict Cumberbatch's character - that would have made it a lot more interesting for me.
-
I'm really cautious too. It's sooo non-Star Trek. To be honest, it looks a lot like movies I specifically avoid in the theaters.
-
*is tired of banging on about being a Trek fan for 30 years and loving the reboot and that Trek has been the same for almost 50 years and Nemesis proved that it needed to change or die.*
For reals. I don't care if Into Darkness is just a sci fi action . As long as it's really well made with a fun plot and the characters aren't just action movie archetypes who happen to have the same name as the Trek crew - i'll be happy with it.
I'm not some Trekkie who's going to video myself complaining about the reboot for 40 minutes.
Yes - i'm going to see it because it says Star Trek on the poster but if I happen to love the shit out of it in spite of it being a sci-fi actioner then what the hell...
-
*is tired of banging on about being a Trek fan for 30 years and loving the reboot and that Trek has been the same for almost 50 years and Nemesis proved that it needed to change or die.*
For reals. I don't care if Into Darkness is just a sci fi action . As long as it's really well made with a fun plot and the characters aren't just action movie archetypes who happen to have the same name as the Trek crew - i'll be happy with it.
I'm not some Trekkie who's going to video myself complaining about the reboot for 40 minutes.
Yes - i'm going to see it because it says Star Trek on the poster but if I happen to love the shit out of it in spite of it being a sci-fi actioner then what the hell...
This sums me up to a T. The way Star Trek had been presented was worn the fuck out by the time Nemesis came along. The series needed a reboot. And since I'm bordering on forty years of watching Trek, if I can watch the reboot movies without qualms, why the hell can't other Trek fans?
-
Because this reboot seems to follow similar path to the new Star Wars movies. Make it shiny and pretty and loud - who cares about substance? Not exactly of course but close enough for me.
I get the bombastic, boring excuse of a scif movies from Hollywood every few years, that wasn't what I loved about Trek. What if the Dr. Who reboot was of similar fashion?
The movie will be well-made, that's for sure. Changing up the franchise is OK - making it generic is not.
-
*is tired of banging on about being a Trek fan for 30 years and loving the reboot and that Trek has been the same for almost 50 years and Nemesis proved that it needed to change or die.*
For reals. I don't care if Into Darkness is just a sci fi action . As long as it's really well made with a fun plot and the characters aren't just action movie archetypes who happen to have the same name as the Trek crew - i'll be happy with it.
I'm not some Trekkie who's going to video myself complaining about the reboot for 40 minutes.
Yes - i'm going to see it because it says Star Trek on the poster but if I happen to love the shit out of it in spite of it being a sci-fi actioner then what the hell...
This sums me up to a T. The way Star Trek had been presented was worn the fuck out by the time Nemesis came along. The series needed a reboot. And since I'm bordering on forty years of watching Trek, if I can watch the reboot movies without qualms, why the hell can't other Trek fans?
I am in the same boat as you guys. I'm forty three, and I was watching TOS with my big brother before I could even understand what was happening....and reading Star Trek novels in the first grade.
However, I don't think the "old formula" (which is a term I don't even really agree with) was broken. To tell you the truth, Insurrection is *my* all time favorite Star Trek film....and I was really sorry to see the blame go on Frakes for the movie failing, because I think he did a great job.
Nemesis OTOH, was a festering pile of dog snot. So there was no doubt in my mind that the franchise did need to go in a different direction after that train wreck.
I just think JJ Abrams did a *FANTASTIC* job...and I think the first 10 minutes of the reboot had more emotion than anything in the series since Spock's funeral. By the time that opening scene was over, he had completely won me over and I knew it was going to be a great film.
-
is that from UHF ? :p
Also This :
I just think JJ Abrams did a *FANTASTIC* job...and I think the first 10 minutes of the reboot had more emotion than anything in the series since Spock's funeral. By the time that opening scene was over, he had completely won me over and I knew it was going to be a great film.
-
is that from UHF ? :p
The "festering pile of dog snot" line? Sure is! Good call! :tup
-
I :heart UHF.
Saw it when I was young and thought it was amazing. Probably one of the best comedies ever made.
-
OMG, this is awesome! The Star Trek video game trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE&feature=youtu.be
-
OMG, this is awesome! The Star Trek video game trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE&feature=youtu.be
First of all, the came looks awesome but the commercial is too damn funny! :lol Shatner talking about overacting made me spit my beer out! :lol
-
Christ, even the freaking video game has to many lens flares.
Honestly, the game interests me even less than the movie, and that's remarkable. Add to that, just like the Star Wars prequils, the movie is going to subject us to pointless action sequences that set up it's video game counterpart. Five dollars says the movie has a sequence with Kirk and Spock having to run and jump across some kind of moving platforms, more than likely in some sort of factory. Probably cauldrons of melty shit all around them, too.
edit: awesome commercial, though.
-
Awesome commercial. I still don't care about the game though. None of the gorns in the game even look like the gorn in the original series, or even the gorn in Enterprise.
-
Were they supposed to be Gorns? I thought they were just random aliens.
Regarding Enterprise, their Gorns were laughably bad. Gorn is essentially *the* TOS alien. You don't fuck with that. Enterprise's Gorns were more velociraptors than anything else.
-
Lousy Gorns cheat at video games, too.
(https://nerdbastards.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Shatner-Gorn.jpg)
(https://www.joblo.com/newsimages1/shatner-gorn.jpg)
(https://startrekblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/gorn.jpg)
(https://storage.canoe.ca/v1/blogs-prod-photos/e/2/1/6/6/e216652961549984f6c5e0762d7f7694.jpg?stmp=1364528770)
-
Finally finished DS9 the other week. I was always a massive TNG fan, but I'm almost leaning towards DS9 as my favourite series. I <3 Jadzia! :P
-
Were they supposed to be Gorns? I thought they were just random aliens.
Regarding Enterprise, their Gorns were laughably bad. Gorn is essentially *the* TOS alien. You don't fuck with that. Enterprise's Gorns were more velociraptors than anything else.
Yep, they're supposed to be Gorns. They have a bunch of different "species" of Gorn in the game, none of which actually look like Gorn.
I didn't mind the Gorn in Enterprise had they called it something else, but they didn't keep enough of the features of the Gorn. Obviously they couldn't have kept it exactly the same as TOS though, speaking of laughably bad.
-
Speaking of ridiculous aliens, early TNG had some bad ones too, like this one (https://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121210010119/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/7/78/Anya%2C_Raging_Monster.jpg/1000px-Anya%2C_Raging_Monster.jpg).
-
Whoa, that's embarassing.
-
Speaking of ridiculous aliens, early TNG had some bad ones too, like this one (https://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121210010119/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/7/78/Anya%2C_Raging_Monster.jpg/1000px-Anya%2C_Raging_Monster.jpg).
Meh, it was the 80's.
Everything looked bad back then.
-
Hah, young Worf was fixing to get his ass kicked.
-
Hah, young Worf was fixing to get his ass kicked.
IIRC, it was one of the few instances where Worf doesn't get his ass kicked.
They get interrupted before that happens. :lol
-
Another episode where Wesley fucks everything up
-
After finishing with DS9, I switched to Voyager now. Man, Neelix' ridiculous jealousy is a really annoying sub plot. I mean, it's ridiculous in the first place that crazy hot Kes would hang out with cabbage head Neelix.
-
At least you don't have to deal with that element once Kes leaves. The show improved dramatically once they brought in 7 of 9 instead.
-
It's a bummer really. IMHO Kes is prettier than 7 of 9, but 7 of 9 is a way better character,
-
Kes was definitely cute, but short hair is a huge turn-off to me. She looked so much nicer with the longer hair in the last few episodes she was in, although they chose the worst episode to change it in. I personally preferred 7 of 9, both as a character, and as eye candy.
Speaking of which, the other day someone said to me "I saw an episode of Star Trek the other day. Some girl was having a baby but she was standing up", and off the top of my head I knew it was Voyager, "Before and After" from S3. :lol :blob:
-
Kes was definitely cute, but short hair is a huge turn-off to me. She looked so much nicer with the longer hair in the last few episodes she was in,
True with both of them. I never thought 7/9 was particularly attractive, but Annika Hansen was gorgeous.
As for Kes and Neelix, it's a shame Souter didn't start with those two.
-
Kes was a cute, normal kind of character, like someone you could actually hang out with. 7 of 9 was an idealized Barbie doll and reminded me of the girls in school who wouldn't even talk to me, so there was literally no point in trying. Her personality, such as it was, didn't help. Obviously, none of that was her fault. But she was still somehow super hot and a huge turnoff at the same time.
7 of 9 was the better character, but it helped that the writers actually had something to work with. The premise behind Kes and her mayfly lifespan was interesting, but never really addressed. Yeah, it came up once or twice.
-
Yes, Kes was another good idea Voyager never reached its potential on. All I can ever think with Voyager is how great it could have been. I agree on Seven, she was annoying in that they decided to emphasize the sex appeal. Not the actress's fault, but it did cheapen the character and show.
-
I haven't been following this thread regularly and there's too much material to read through so this may have be posted already.
Anybody here been watching weekly episodes of the original series on METV? I was surprised to see the enhanced space footage of the Enterprise and the planets. A couple weeks ago I was watching the episode "All Our Yesterdays". At the end, the sun goes nova and they enhanced it with a shockwave and more color. Kinda of like George Lucas' Star Wars Special Edition enhanced effects. I'm like, "That's not how the original version looked." Pretty cool. Just thought I'd post to see if any other channels are showing the new versions or if anyone else has noticed. Right now, METV is the only network showing the original series from what I get in my cable package.
-
From Alpha...
In A Vision of the Future - Star Trek: Voyager, Stephen Edward Poe states that in 1997, when producers were ironing out the details of the introduction of Seven of Nine, they had already lined up Garrett Wang (Harry Kim) to take the bullet and leave in order to free up enough budget for a new main actor. Then that year, Wang was chosen by People Magazine as one of the "50 Most Beautiful People in the World." Suddenly Wang was in, and Lien was out.
I hate Harry Kim.
-
Voyager had so many throwaway characters. Kim, Kes, Neelix, Janeway, they all could have disappeared and I couldn't have cared less. Paris and the Doctor were IMHO the most interesting, and then later 7/9.
-
Voyager had so many throwaway characters. Kim, Kes, Neelix, Janeway, they all could have disappeared and I couldn't have cared less. Paris and the Doctor were IMHO the most interesting, and then later 7/9.
So true. I found all of them boring. Even Janeway's tryst were boring.
-
I have the episode running in the background where Neelix and Paris get stranded on a planet and are fighting amongst each other over Kes. And all I can think is how awesome the episode would be if Paris suddenly snapped Neelix's neck, without warning.
-
Voyager had so many throwaway characters. Kim, Kes, Neelix, Janeway, they all could have disappeared and I couldn't have cared less. Paris and the Doctor were IMHO the most interesting, and then later 7/9.
I wouldn't call Janeway throwaway. Unlike most people, I quite liked her character. But aside from her, 7 of 9 and the doctor, they were mostly taking up space. Tuvok was an awesome character, but he didn't get as much screen time as he deserved.
And they were the worst cast of actors of the Treks too. Harry Kim, Tom Paris, Chakotay, couldn't act for shit.
-
I actually don't mind Kim. He was the one character they made with room for development. And where they created Paris with a specific function in mind, they kind of turned him into a pretty ordinary character.
I haven't been following this thread regularly and there's too much material to read through so this may have be posted already.
Anybody here been watching weekly episodes of the original series on METV? I was surprised to see the enhanced space footage of the Enterprise and the planets. A couple weeks ago I was watching the episode "All Our Yesterdays". At the end, the sun goes nova and they enhanced it with a shockwave and more color. Kinda of like George Lucas' Star Wars Special Edition enhanced effects. I'm like, "That's not how the original version looked." Pretty cool. Just thought I'd post to see if any other channels are showing the new versions or if anyone else has noticed. Right now, METV is the only network showing the original series from what I get in my cable package.
For the most part I enjoyed the remastered episodes. They generally took a KISS approach that worked well. I only recall one or two instances where I thought they went too far. Turning the final battle in The Ultimate Computer from a fleet exercise to a dogfight is the best example as it ruined the dramatic impact, IMO. There were many more instances where they actually fixed things, though. No more "fire phasers" followed by a shot of photon torpedos launching; that sort of thing.
-
I wouldn't call Janeway throwaway. Unlike most people, I quite liked her character.
I like her character better in movies from the 1930s, when she was called "Katharine Hepburn".
-
I actually don't mind Kim. He was the one character they made with room for development. And where they created Paris with a specific function in mind, they kind of turned him into a pretty ordinary character.
Well, that just about goes for the entire show.
-
I wouldn't call Janeway throwaway. Unlike most people, I quite liked her character.
I like her character better in movies from the 1930s, when she was called "Katharine Hepburn".
:lol
So damn right.
-
Well her hair for the first 3 seasons (?) was right out of the 30's and 40's. :lol
-
I haven't been following this thread regularly and there's too much material to read through so this may have be posted already.
Anybody here been watching weekly episodes of the original series on METV? I was surprised to see the enhanced space footage of the Enterprise and the planets. A couple weeks ago I was watching the episode "All Our Yesterdays". At the end, the sun goes nova and they enhanced it with a shockwave and more color. Kinda of like George Lucas' Star Wars Special Edition enhanced effects. I'm like, "That's not how the original version looked." Pretty cool. Just thought I'd post to see if any other channels are showing the new versions or if anyone else has noticed. Right now, METV is the only network showing the original series from what I get in my cable package.
For the most part I enjoyed the remastered episodes. They generally took a KISS approach that worked well. I only recall one or two instances where I thought they went too far. Turning the final battle in The Ultimate Computer from a fleet exercise to a dogfight is the best example as it ruined the dramatic impact, IMO. There were many more instances where they actually fixed things, though. No more "fire phasers" followed by a shot of photon torpedos launching; that sort of thing.
Interesting. I'm really pumped up to see more of these remastered episodes.
-
That sounds horrible what they did to The Ultimate Computer. Adding/updating/fixing special effects, I'm cool with. Anything that changes the plot, not cool. Add whatever eye candy you want, but Han didn't shoot first.
-
That sounds horrible what they did to The Ultimate Computer. Adding/updating/fixing special effects, I'm cool with. Anything that changes the plot, not cool. Add whatever eye candy you want, but Han didn't shoot first.
Oh, it didn't change the plot at all. It was still 4 starships fighting 1. It's just that rather than the four of them staying in that ominous block formation, they were whizzing around all over the place. It just lessened the tension of the four of them bearing down with that ominous theme music blaring at you.
-
Ah, okay. I liked the block formation, too, and now this just sounds silly and unnecessary.
-
I get what you're saying Barto. The block formation was more intense like a stand off rather than Top Gun style. Yeah, doesn't seem to really fit too well by your description.
-
In retrospect, it's not quite as bad as I remember. Here's every CGI scene from TUC in a 90 second clip. They actually did keep the original somewhat in mind. Still, I have a clear recollection that it lacked the drama and foreboding impact of the original.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToLrAz2TV9A
The flipside of all of that is The Naked Time, where they actually improved the dramatic impact a bit. Now, the decaying orbit around Psi-Whatthefuckever actually looks the way you'd expect it to look. I remember liking that quite a bit more when I re-watched it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihgUn7DcNSw
-
Seeing the original box formation shot, it looks somewhere between terrible and uncomfortable. Not knowing the episode, the new cgi looks like an improvement to me, and the formation is still there.
-
The original was cheap and damned crappy. They just C/P four Enterprises into a box and called it a day. Still, it made for a palpable sense of steadfast determination to destroy Kirk. The ships seemed to just keep bearing down on them no matter what. In the remastered version, they clearly tried to make it more interesting and exciting, but lessened the intensity in the process. I suppose that if you weren't familiar with the original, this probably would seem like a real improvement, but it's really not.
And The Ultimate Computer is a great episode. Definitely worth seeing.
-
Weird that they replaced the clocks in The Naked Time. I mean, it's still campy, just different campy.
-
Add whatever eye candy you want, but Han didn't shoot first.
Yes he did.
-
Shit, I can't believe I did that. You know what I meant.
-
Yes, you've been brainwashed by Lucas.
-
Yeah. :blush
-
Just to be clear, you picked some pointless post off the internet and had to come here to make sure you debunked it?
Apparently Star trek Info is not allowed in a Star Trek Thread.
-
Just to be clear, you picked some pointless post off the internet and had to come here to make sure you debunked it?
-
Maybe next time i'll post some star trek info in the Dream theater section.
:heart :hat
-
:lol
-
Watching The Inner Light :heart
-
Great episode.
-
Reminds me of times where i've got memories but literally have no idea if they happened or if it was a dream.
-
Best part of that episode is at the end, when he still knows how to play the pipe flute, after playing it for years and years.
-
Best part of that episode is at the end, when he still knows how to play the pipe flute, after playing it for years and years.
Agreed. Panda doesn't see why every claims the episode is so amazing.
-
My recollection of it was that it was a very good episode, and a great idea. However, I thought the end was pretty weak. They really didn't need to bring everything together in such a way that a 6 year old could understand it. Kamin should have just died of old age and woken up as Piccard back on the Enterprise. Then he could piece it back together and replicate the flute. The whole thing would have had more impact if they'd left an unanswered question or two in place.
-
That would have been very cool. Unfortunately, Star Trek wasn't hard sci-fi; it wasn't even actual drama, when you get right down to it. It was light entertainment that occassionally get a little heavier. They had to spell out exactly what had happened, for the benefit of people who watch TV and don't expect anything tougher to comprehend than what a 6-year-old could.
I agree that it was a bit unsatisfying and cheesy the way they all showed up and laid it out. It seemed awkward and out of nowhere the first time I saw it, and it still feels like that. Then they all go away and Picard kicks back in his room and plays the pipe flute and it's all good.
-
Considering it was that world's attempt to preserve their history and culture, the info dump at the end was both for the benefit of the person getting probed and for the audience. In that respect, I think it works fine. In some cases a bit of ambiguity can certainly add a little extra something to a story, but I don't think it would've worked all that well here.
Regardless of how cheesy it might be, The Inner Light is one of my favorite Trek episodes. I love every second of it.
-
Watching VOY's "Time's End". Damn, I had no idea that it was Sarah Silverman in that episode. I was very aware however that Silverman is one hot mofo.
-
Watching VOY's "Time's End". Damn, I had no idea that it was Sarah Silverman in that episode. I was very aware however that Silverman is one hot mofo.
It's called Future's End. I knew that off the top of my head. :blob:
I consider that one of the first really great episodes of Voyager, although some aspects of the episode bug me. That smug 20th century dude shouldn't have had a chance. It should have been like a monkey with a broken laptop.
I think I read on memory alpha that they considered making her a permanent cast member in that episode? That would have been interesting.
-
So I just booked my ticket for Star Trek Into Darkness at the BFI IMAX in London in 3D.
£18 worse off but fuck it. Gotta splash out every now and then . :biggrin:
4 weeks to go ! :)
-
I think I read on memory alpha that they considered making her a permanent cast member in that episode? That would have been interesting.
Probably would have made more sense than leaving her behind after all the future tech they exposed her to. I suppose that she would have filled the Kes role, since JL was already on her way out the door at that point. Naive outsider. Lover interest for Paris. In the end, 7 was probably the better way to go.
-
I think I read on memory alpha that they considered making her a permanent cast member in that episode? That would have been interesting.
Probably would have made more sense than leaving her behind after all the future tech they exposed her to. I suppose that she would have filled the Kes role, since JL was already on her way out the door at that point. Naive outsider. Lover interest for Paris. In the end, 7 was probably the better way to go.
Coulda just killed her off when Seven showed up :)
-
I think I read on memory alpha that they considered making her a permanent cast member in that episode? That would have been interesting.
Probably would have made more sense than leaving her behind after all the future tech they exposed her to. I suppose that she would have filled the Kes role, since JL was already on her way out the door at that point. Naive outsider. Lover interest for Paris. In the end, 7 was probably the better way to go.
That's definitely not true. Garrett Wang was going to get the axe for Seven until he was in People magazine in 1997. Future's End was 1996.
-
While 7/9 certainly allowed for better plots, I have to say I'd take Sarah Silverman over Jen Ryan any day.
-
Hmm.... Sarah Silverman Borg.
-
While 7/9 certainly allowed for better plots, I have to say I'd take Sarah Silverman over Jen Ryan any day.
I'm just waiting for the youtube version of "I'm Fucking Rum-borak."
-
I could live with that.
-
New trailer. More plot revealed.
https://trailers.apple.com/trailers/paramount/startrekintodarkness/
-
It didn't seem to show any more actual plot or motivation for the crazy bad guy, which is the main thing that still hugely concerns me with this movie, although it doesn't seem like Kirk is going to be a spoiled brat who gets handed everything for no reason, which was one of my main problems with Trek XI, so I'm a little more optimistic after this newest trailer.
I'm going into this one without very high expectations beyond yet another explosion fest. Mind you, I did quite enjoy the last explosion fest a lot more than this post would indicate, I'm just hoping this one has some actual depth to the story for a change, because I'm a bit tired of the current pattern of Trek movies.
-
I do agree that the last movie was very unconvincing in the way Kirk got the Enterprise's seat. Really, you just show up as an uninvited passenger on a ship, piss off the man that commands the ship, and then you're the captain?
-
Pike knew Kirk had the potential for greatness and in taking the initiative to try and save the ship was a ballsy move for a cadet.
I agree that promoting him directly to first officer was a bit contrived but maybe Pike wanted to try and fast - track Kirk to the top since he believed in him and wanted greatness from him.
you could also say that the timeline was trying to correct itself and several contrivances had to occur in order to get things back to "normal".
The writers said they had actually written a scene where Spock Prime explains all the contrivances as the timeline returning to normal but they said it ended up being way too wordy and was cut for time.
-
I do agree that the last movie was very unconvincing in the way Kirk got the Enterprise's seat. Really, you just show up as an uninvited passenger on a ship, piss off the man that commands the ship, and then you're the captain?
He was an obnoxious brat the entire movie. He starts a fight in a bar and gets a place at Starfleet Academy. He lies his way onto the Enterprise, and gets himself dumped onto an ice planet (which made no sense and was dumb luck for the story), then he sneaks back onto the ship and provokes Spock into punching him, all of which somehow entitles him to place himself as Captain without question from the crew. Then for his good work, he gets handed the ship. O.....k..............
One thing that bothers me is the scene at the start where he steals his stepfather's car and drives it off a cliff. In the movie, it's just Kirk being a rebellious jerk just because they want to throw in your face that he's a jerk, but there's a deleted scene that from what I recall puts it in context that it was his dead father's car, and the stepdad has sort of taken it as his own, and he abuses the family, forcing the brother to leave, saying he'll only come back if Kirk stops being such a pushover, so Kirk steals the car and drives it off a cliff to prove something to his brother (who he passes in the car as he's driving), and to stick it to his dick stepfather.
But of course, they cut that for time......
-
you could also say that the timeline was trying to correct itself and several contrivances had to occur in order to get things back to "normal".
The writers said they had actually written a scene where Spock Prime explains all the contrivances as the timeline returning to normal but they said it ended up being way too wordy and was cut for time.
...not to mention off the deep end. That's trying to justify ridiculous with ridiculous. After all the mind boggling Star Trek time travel that's gone on they decide to introduce that, now? Good thing it got dropped.
-
But at least the writers were *aware* of all the contrivances.
-
But at least the writers were *aware* of all the contrivances.
I'd rather just accept the contrivances as a necessity of the reboot, rather than have the concept of contrivance officially canonized. :lol
I agree with yorost on this one.
-
Watching Endgame finally to see how Voyager ends.
How did Janeway make Admiral and Picard NEVER got promoted ? :P He saved Earth from the Borg ffs.
-
Watching Endgame finally to see how Voyager ends.
How did Janeway make Admiral and Picard NEVER got promoted ? :P He saved Earth from the Borg ffs.
She's like a carrier pigeon, that's got to count for something. Wasn't she an admiral in Nemesis, anyways?
-
How did Janeway make Admiral and Picard NEVER got promoted ? :P He saved Earth from the Borg ffs.
I suppose it was either that brain thing, or he just didn't want the gig. Given the personality he displayed, I suspect he'd have gone off to play Indiana Jones before giving up his ability to explore. For that matter, didn't Kirk tell him to never let them take away his command?
-
Oh.
it's one of THOSE endings.
Yay we did it THE END
-
It might have been ok for a mid season episode but no wrap up or epilogue OF ANY KIND is just weak.
-
Agreed. After seven years and everything they went through, "Okay, we're home. Later!"
How did Janeway make Admiral and Picard NEVER got promoted ? :P He saved Earth from the Borg ffs.
I suppose it was either that brain thing, or he just didn't want the gig. Given the personality he displayed, I suspect he'd have gone off to play Indiana Jones before giving up his ability to explore. For that matter, didn't Kirk tell him to never let them take away his command?
Kirk did tell him that, I think it was in Generations, and it would seem that Picard took it to heart. With Kirk, it was established that the best starship captains want to be starship captains, not admirals. A desk job would be boring as hell, worse than career suicide, for someone who spent years exploring the galaxy in the flagship. I always figured Picard was offerred a promotion at least a few times, and told them to stuff it.
I think there were at least one or two alternate reality or faux-future episodes where Picard's an admiral, but nothing canonical.
-
Isn't he Admiral in All Good Things ?
Now THAT was a good closing episode.
-
Back to Into Darkness...
It's starting to look more like John Harrison isn't the main bad guy and that Admiral Marcus might be the threat behind the threat.
People are postulating that the massive fuck off ship might be his and he has pissed off or framed Harrison who then teams up with Kirk to get even.
-
Isn't he Admiral in All Good Things ?
Now THAT was a good closing episode.
Yeah, that's a great one. And you're right; Picard's an admiral, but that's a "possible future" isn't it? I guess that's what I mean when I say I don't know if it's canon or not.
-
I always thought that his disease was a what if as well.
It was one of those weird plot things that you think " they didn't really need to have Picard have some disease at the end "
Like that episode where they find out they can no longer go Warp 6.
Why would you restrict a fictional universe ?
hey let's write an episode where we restrict ourselves from writing any future scenario where we MAY NEED TO EXCEED WARP 6.
???
Why would you do that ?!
-
From now on - let's have Janeway have a disease where she is unable to say the word " report " .
Oh shit - my foot appears to be shot off.
-
The extreme promotions people got in ST was always a bit "look at how high-class our crew is!"
The Warp 6 restriction was a) just a eco- friendly episode and b) from there on an excuse to emphasize the importance of their missions. "This is so important, we need Warp 9!"
-
So go Warp 9 ! :lol
Don't write an episode where you restrict yourself !
-
Well, once they'd decided they could fix the problem of the week using just, say, Geordi's visor, they had to go back and add some sort of restrictions in just to make things interesting.
-
Isn't he Admiral in All Good Things ?
Now THAT was a good closing episode.
It was a great, big time episode for the series, but since they knew it was going to movies it wasn't made into much of a closer. They could have gone another season and who would have thought it odd not knowing it was supposed to be the end? DS9 had the only great closer, finishing off a mammoth run and an understanding everything has changed. You watch that, and you just feel the series is never coming back.
...and Riker is the admiral in All Good Things. I don't think Picard has ever been shown as an admiral. In that one really cool episode with Riker, which was a faked future in the series, I think he was, though.
-
...and Riker is the admiral in All Good Things. I don't think Picard has ever been shown as an admiral. In that one really cool episode with Riker, which was a faked future in the series, I think he was, though.
I only remember Picard as a crazy old man in France. They might have called him Admiral, but I don't recall.
-
Actually, IIRC Geordi tries to call him ambassador, not admiral.
-
...and Riker is the admiral in All Good Things. I don't think Picard has ever been shown as an admiral. In that one really cool episode with Riker, which was a faked future in the series, I think he was, though.
I only remember Picard as a crazy old man in France. They might have called him Admiral, but I don't recall.
Ah, what? I wasn't saying he was an admiral in All Good Things, Riker was.
I looked it up on Alpha, in Future's Imperfect Picard was presented as a future admiral to Riker, but it eventually turned out to be a holodeck fantasy trying to trick him.
-
...and Riker is the admiral in All Good Things. I don't think Picard has ever been shown as an admiral. In that one really cool episode with Riker, which was a faked future in the series, I think he was, though.
I only remember Picard as a crazy old man in France. They might have called him Admiral, but I don't recall.
Ah, what? I wasn't saying he was an admiral in All Good Things, Riker was.
Oh, I know. I was merely expanding on your point. And I think Rumbo got it right. Geordi called him Ambassador, which would make much more sense for the character.
-
" 'e looks like a bladdy skunk ! "
-
Watching VOY, arrived at the token Nazi episode. I've never understood their obsession with it. TOS had one, VOY and ENT did, and DS9 had the recurring Battle of Britain theme. I never thought they made particularly good episodes.
-
Space Nazis From Outer Space !
They make the Borg look like regular zombie Nazis !
-
I don't think it's Nazis, per se (well, TOS certainly was). I think it's more about WWII. It's a conflict with clear-cut good guys and bad guys, and everybody knows the story. It also has enough different factions to accommodate whatever adaptation you want to make, and people still would have known all the players. It's mostly about familiarity, I think. Somehow I don't think a Voyager episode about the Crimean War would have been good for ratings.
-
A closer look at the enemy ship from Star Trek Into Darkness.
Possibly upgraded with 24th century tech ?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIkxAmtCQAAFxmC.png:large)
Uss Vengeance.
This is Harrison's ship seen crashing in San Fran in the trailers. Note the widely spaced nacelles.
-
p.s. reports from the Sydney Premiere say that Cumberbatch *is* Khan.
Disappointing but i'm still gonna watch with an open mind.
I'm past caring now and I just want it to be good.
-
p.s. reports from the Sydney Premiere say that Cumberbatch *is* Khan.
Disappointing but i'm still gonna watch with an open mind.
I'm past caring now and I just want it to be good.
Yeesh, just read the whole synopsis, and now I want to see it even less.
I understand why they blew up the old timeline so-as to create a new one. That said, why just go on reimagining old stories? They can do anything they want now. It kind of has the same pathetic feel of Enterprise, where towards the end they were just trying to cram in all the throwbacks and nonsensical back-stories they could to garner a few extra viewers.
-
It better not be Khan, because that would be a colossally stupid move on every possible level. Anything they try would pale in comparison to the great Ricardo Montalban, and TWOK. Not to mention he's a dull British dude, and not a super charismatic (whatever the heck awesome background Montalban was with that smooth sexy accent).
And that ship doesn't even look like they're trying to use any logic. I don't think JJ understands how time works. Just because you diverged the timeline, doesn't mean suddenly mean you have ships that look like they're post-Nemesis placed in the pre-TOS era.
Bah. I hope someone is lying about that.
-
About the ship : remember they have 24th century technology now due to the Klingons getting their hands on the Narada in the previous movie.
What if Starfleet struck some kind of deal with the Klingons ?
The same spoilers are elsewhere on the net.
I don't understand why they would do it. Why not just have some guy who's been injected with Khan's blood instead of it being Khan himself ?
:loser:
-
Just finished watching " The Captains. " and of all the souls I have encountered in my travels...Of Avery Brooks I can only say this....
He was the most...Batshit Insane :rollin
Seriously had no idea what was going on inside his head.
-
Holy... Captain Sisko is Kurn's father so he must be Worf's father, but Worf's father is Worf, so Captain Sisko and Worf are one and the same!
I had no idea Kurn's actor, Tony Todd, was the same that played Jake Sisko in The Visitor.
-
Trek sure do like to recycle their actors !
How many different characters has David Warner played now ?
Jaochim from Wrath Of Khan was in a TNG episode as some alien dude too.
-
I saw a clip recently which had the crew deciding on whether or not to break the prime directive to rescue Spock before he dies in what appears to be a no-win situation, whereas Spock replies "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one". That is when it hit me. Into Darkness might just be a Wrath of Khan ripoff. After reading the last couple of posts here it seems my guess is correct. I'm sorry but THAT IS COLOSSALLY STUPID!!! :facepalm: I seriously hope they are not trying to make another Star Trek II. That's exactly what they tried with Nemesis which failed on every respect. When Nicholas Myers wrote Star Trek II he wasn't trying to write a good Star Trek movie, he was writing a good overall story that just happen to work as a Star Trek movie. He did the exact same thing with VI and for me VI is almost as brilliant as II, in some ways it's better. But as noted Ricardo Maltaban (sp?) has a natural charisma to him. He just grabs your focus and he doesn't have to speak. Into Darkness looks very forced. I'm hoping that it isn't.
-
Your suspicions are correct however the film has had very good reviews so far and i'm hopeful that it's at least as good as the last one.
If not then i'll just watch the last one.
After all it can't be as bad as Nemesis.
-
V ...I
-
V ...I
Star Trek VI? you know... The Undiscovered Country? Sorry I thought I could be as abbreviated as just throwing out the number. :laugh:
Also I really don't put a lot of faith in critics. Not after hearing most critics praise Revenge of the Sith as a good movie when it was horrifically as bad as the last two and for dismissing Star Trek Nemesis as bad without realizing that Nemesis made the attempt at a story and a movie, unlike the first three that were at best, mediocre episodes, exception to Generations which would have been an awful episode.
-
:lol ...should have used a comma! VI is my favourite, by the way.
Generations wasn't that bad. The way I see it, I love the beginning and the end, throw out the middle and you're doing pretty good! I watch the TOS part then zoom to shortly before the destruction of the Enterprise and I'm doing pretty good!
-
Just got back from seeing Best of Both Worlds I & II in theaters and I noticed this gem from LCDR Shelby (said in one breath):
"Data was available. I took him. We came."
-
That quote works really well with your avatar.
-
:lol
That's the face I made!
-
Overall, how was Best of Both Worlds I & II on the big screen?
-
If they're re-doing the TWOK story, I'm OK with it. That's my favorite of the films, so bring it. :hat
-
V ...I
Star Trek VI? you know... The Undiscovered Country? Sorry I thought I could be as abbreviated as just throwing out the number. :laugh:
Also I really don't put a lot of faith in critics. Not after hearing most critics praise Revenge of the Sith as a good movie when it was horrifically as bad as the last two and for dismissing Star Trek Nemesis as bad without realizing that Nemesis made the attempt at a story and a movie, unlike the first three that were at best, mediocre episodes, exception to Generations which would have been an awful episode.
I actually really enjoy Generations and First Contact...and *especially* Insurrection which is a top 3 (possibly even #1) all time great ST movie. I confess the story line carries some very personal issues for me, so I understand that that skews my liking of it. I still think the greatest travesty of the TNG movies was taking the torch away from Jonathan Frakes after the luke warm response to Insurrection. First Contact had so much support that it just seemed like taking it away from him after Insurrection didn't quite live up to most people's expectations seemed very premature.
Nemesis, to me, was an absolute TRAIN WRECK.
-
I still fail to see how a reworking/rebooting/re-whatevering of a popular storyline is in any way better than a new one.
-
I fail to see how rebooting the franchise, introducing an event that clearly and succinctly says "We can now do anything we want. This is now a different timeline/reality/universe/whateverthefuck" and then just redoing the old stories anyway makes any fucking sense.
-
I fail to see how rebooting the franchise, introducing an event that clearly and succinctly says "We can now do anything we want. This is now a different timeline/reality/universe/whateverthefuck" and then just redoing the old stories anyway makes any fucking sense.
I agree.
I don't even mind them taking ideas from old TOS stuff, because there are plenty of episodes that could easily be expanded into excellent movies, but instead they go straight for remaking the most highly regarded of all the Trek movies. I don't understand the line of reasoning there at all.
They have a clean slate to explore any new idea, or expand on a ton of ideas that were only touched upon in Trek, but they go with an idea that's already been done, and done well.
They could have done something like Mirror Mirror. What's not to like about evil doppelgangers? They could have used it to explore the characters further too. But keep them all in the same dimension, and just strand the good guys on the planet while the evil ones try to play along without anyone noticing, then lots of exploding action stuff.
-
...just how close is this to Wrath of Khan?
-
Overall, how was Best of Both Worlds I & II on the big screen?
Actually it was pretty great. You notice so many nuances that you miss watching it on TV and the remaster gives the picture new life, though you can pick out some of the limits of TV formatting. My biggest gripe was that they didn't have an intermission between the two which detracted from the legendary cliffhanger suspense.
-
I watched it yesterday too! Where did you watch it?
But yeah, the cliffhanger feeling was not there, because Riker goes straight from "Fire!" to "Oooooh, that didn't work at all."
-
Did they add in Picard's love scenes with the Borg Queen?
-
Did they add in Picard's love scenes with the Borg Queen?
:lol No, they didn't.
My brother and I got free tickets to go see it yesterday and had a blast. Neither of us had seen these episodes yet (I was currently on S03E19 Captain's Holiday) and it was cool to see the interviews and bloopers as well. Video quality was greatly improved, though still showing its age. I appreciate how the special effects were enhanced rather than replaced (all the ships are still models).
-
But yeah, the cliffhanger feeling was not there, because Riker goes straight from "Fire!" to "Oooooh, that didn't work at all."
:lol
-
...just how close is this to Wrath of Khan?
Cumberbatch plays Khan and they reverse the ending of WOK but people who've seen the movie say it's a totally new story and there are only a few TWOK references.
-
If they're re-doing the TWOK story, I'm OK with it. That's my favorite of the films, so bring it. :hat
It's not a complete Wrath Of Khan remake it's a new film with Khan as the lead villain.
Just think of Heath Ledger doing Joker . It's not Jack Nicholson's story but it's a new film in it's own right.
-
If they're re-doing the TWOK story, I'm OK with it. That's my favorite of the films, so bring it. :hat
It's not a complete Wrath Of Khan remake it's a new film with Khan as the lead villain.
Just think of Heath Ledger doing Joker . It's not Jack Nicholson's story but it's a new film in it's own right.
Well, there you go then. What's wrong with that? It's a rebooted film franchise, after all. I've seen every episode of classic Star Trek, every episode of TNG and all of the films and have been a fan of Star Trek ever since I can remember. "The Cage" (which was the pilot) first aired in 1965 when I was one. I caught the first season in reruns in the early 70's and was hooked from there. Never got into the spin-offs, though.
But anyway, I'll wait until I see the movie before I judge it. And I'll watch it with no preconceived notions about whether or not it's going to be good.
-
Cumberbatch plays Khan and they reverse the ending of WOK but people who've seen the movie say it's a totally new story and there are only a few TWOK references.
Kirk activates the Genesis Device, and Khan gets away while the Enterprise blows up? :omg:
I am interested in seeing Cumberbatch as I am a huge fan of the BCC Sherlock series, and that’s the only thing I’ve seen him in. If only I was interested in seeing a new Trek movie with Khan.
Just think of Heath Ledger doing Joker . It's not Jack Nicholson's story but it's a new film in it's own right.
I would buy that if they just came out from the beginning and made totally different Trek films like they did with Batman, instead of being lazy and creating alternate timelines or whatever. And why even have any references? TDK didn’t have any references to Burton’s Batman that I am aware of. So it fully existed on its own. Nothing to make the audience think “Oh yeah, I remember that from that other Batman film with the Joker.” Which to me, is a CLANG moment (See: Roger Ebert).
-
If they're re-doing the TWOK story, I'm OK with it. That's my favorite of the films, so bring it. :hat
It's not a complete Wrath Of Khan remake it's a new film with Khan as the lead villain.
Just think of Heath Ledger doing Joker . It's not Jack Nicholson's story but it's a new film in it's own right.
Well, there you go then. What's wrong with that? It's a rebooted film franchise, after all.
Nothing really "wrong" with it; it just seems cheesy that it's Khan. New story, new take on the character, but same name. Why?
The Joker is Batman's primary nemesis. In any Batman franchise -- TV, movie, cartoon, video game -- he's going to show up.
But Khan is not universally recognized as Kirk's ultimate nemesis. Well, maybe to some. Kirk commanded the flagship for years, met countless folks good and bad, and they could have gone in any direction with this movie. The second movie in the rebooted franchise features the same bad guy as in ST II. Obviously that's not a coincidence.
-
What bothers me the most is that they think "reboot" is a valid excuse to cast a British guy to play an Indian played by a Mexican from hundreds of years before the timeline difference is supposed to take place.
-
I guess I just don't take fictional movies that seriously (https://www.kirksnosehair.com/Portals/0/images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
-
I guess I just don't take fictional movies that seriously (https://www.kirksnosehair.com/Portals/0/images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
That's ok, apparently neither does JJ. :P
-
What bothers me the most is that they think "reboot" is a valid excuse to cast a British guy to play an Indian played by a Mexican from hundreds of years before the timeline difference is supposed to take place.
Khan's tricky, like that. You never know what race he'll be next time he's around.
-
Well, I guess there's no reason to be mindful of spoilers anymore.
My problem with this is that the new movie has almost nothing to do with TWoK. The only similarities are that it's a reimagining of Khan (and he's seriously reimagined), and a few throwback references (the hands on the glass, the needs of the many. . .). Why bother? I've read the whole plot synopsis and it looks pretty ridiculous (section 31? Really?). But, even if I'm wrong and they managed to craft a bad ass story around these elements, why not make the bad guy somebody original? My point is that they've made a completely different story, but thrown in a few Khan related gimmicks to sell a few extra tickets. That's why I said it reminds me of Enterprise. They're digging up throwbacks and references just for the sake of gimmickry.
-
So I take you guys will all be sitting this one out then, right?
-
I might go see it with my wife, she brought it up a few days ago.
Section 31 is in it? That's fine with me as not a gimmick. They've been introduced and there's no reason for them not to exist. Might not be a necessary addition, I don't know, but it's not unreasonable if they want to portray a dark, secret side of the Federation. Making an organization not called Section 31 to serve a similar purpose would be worse.
-
Stuff
Thank for spelling my thoughts out better than I can. Even if this wasn't a 'reboot,' you have the WHOLE Trek universe to work with. The number of adventures the Enterprise crew could encounter in limited only by your imagination. Come up with an original story. You did it for the first film.
Due to time, I rarely get a chance to go to the movies, but will see this when available for viewing at home. It will probably be massively spoiled for me by then, but I'll still see it.
-
Stuff
<snip>
Come up with an original story.
<snip>
This doesn't make sense to me at all. It *IS* an original story. The Eugenics Wars novels were original stories involving Khan. Just because it has *a character* from the same universe makes it *not* an original story? Didn't the first movie have Kirk? So by your reasoning, the first movie was NOT an "original story" because it had *a character* from the same universe. By that reasoning, there hasn't been "an original story" since the pilot episode.
-
Well, I guess there's no reason to be mindful of spoilers anymore.
My problem with this is that the new movie has almost nothing to do with TWoK. The only similarities are that it's a reimagining of Khan (and he's seriously reimagined), and a few throwback references (the hands on the glass, the needs of the many. . .). Why bother? I've read the whole plot synopsis and it looks pretty ridiculous (section 31? Really?). But, even if I'm wrong and they managed to craft a bad ass story around these elements, why not make the bad guy somebody original? My point is that they've made a completely different story, but thrown in a few Khan related gimmicks to sell a few extra tickets. That's why I said it reminds me of Enterprise. They're digging up throwbacks and references just for the sake of gimmickry.
If they're adding Khan just to sell a few extra tickets, I'd think they would have publicized that he was in it.
-
Well, I guess there's no reason to be mindful of spoilers anymore.
My problem with this is that the new movie has almost nothing to do with TWoK. The only similarities are that it's a reimagining of Khan (and he's seriously reimagined), and a few throwback references (the hands on the glass, the needs of the many. . .). Why bother? I've read the whole plot synopsis and it looks pretty ridiculous (section 31? Really?). But, even if I'm wrong and they managed to craft a bad ass story around these elements, why not make the bad guy somebody original? My point is that they've made a completely different story, but thrown in a few Khan related gimmicks to sell a few extra tickets. That's why I said it reminds me of Enterprise. They're digging up throwbacks and references just for the sake of gimmickry.
If they're adding Khan just to sell a few extra tickets, I'd think they would have publicized that he was in it.
I will add to this that if the new movie had ANYTHING to do with TWOK, I *would* have a problem with it. The only reason I'm even keeping an open mind (and actually downright optimistic) about the new movie is *because* it has nothing to do with TWOK.
-
If anything it's a movie based on Space Seed not TWOK.
-
Granted, as people have pointed out, this movie could revolve around a neat story line, however I'm just sad the writers weren't confident enough to tackle something "new", instead they rebooted an old character. My biggest question is why? Is Khan really that awesome of a character to reboot when you have endless other bad guys you could bring into a story? Were they that strapped for villains they had to reboot an already established villain from a very highly regarded movie. What really floors me is now... now they have created a movie with Khan in it, people are just going to compare this movie to Star Trek II. Granted they may have done it before but now the comparison will be forced because the writers wanted to re-imagine it. What were they thinking?
-
You know, it's probably a legit spoiler.
That being said...until I see more than one review sourced saying Khan is the villain, I'm going to be skeptical. This is the internet after all. And if he IS Khan...well, won't matter to me if the movie's good. If it sucks, the actual source material being used is irrelevant.
-
If anything it's a movie based on Space Seed.
Oh, you mean, like, Wrath of Khan?
Ok, now I am just being a nuisance. I stand by what I said, but probably not as strongly as I came off as sounding. I’m overly protective of TWoK, as it is my all-time favorite movie.
The Eugenics Wars novels were original stories involving Khan. Just because it has *a character* from the same universe makes it *not* an original story?
I could have said that better. The Joel Cox books were an extension of the Space Seed Khan story. Like I said, the problem isn’t with having Khan in this movie, but having Khan in this rebooted universe, because now there is no need to adhere to whatever has been previously established. And to that end, I feel you might as well come up with what I referred to as an ‘original’ story.
And this is a good debate. I like seeing differing views, especially from you all who are bigger Trek fans than I. Much better than the arguments I get in to at home, like which drawer the Tupperware goes in.
-
I have a hard time believing it's Khan.
-
^ I did too but it's been confirmed all over the place.
-
I still don't believe it! :lol
-
I was disappointed at first but it's been such a secretive build up to the film that at this point I just wanna see the damn thing.
I was adamant it would not be Khan and I was sure that all the "clues" were people's wishful thinking.
I was having a convo with someone about it and I said " I wish they'd have done someone completely new."
And they reminded me that most Trek films are a brand new villain and maybe for once it was time to revisit
A classic Trek villain for a change and put a new spin on it.
That kind of swung me a bit and got me excited again.
-
I wish people weren't posting spoilers for a film that hasn't been released yet. WTF
-
Sorry. :-X
However for what it is worth I don't see this reveal as a spoiler for me. Again, all there is is a name. As pointed out this could be a complete rewrite of the character thus have absolutely nothing to do with the previous character. It doesn't reveal his motives, reasoning, what happens in the end, etc. These would be much larger spoilers than just knowing a name. unless this a reveal for the very end of the movie much like the reveal at the end of Young Sherlock Holmes. If that is the case for this movie then oops. Still, for me knowing now is better than hearing the name as the movie goes on and throwing my popcorn at the screen and dismissing the movie because now I'm comparing it to the older one the entire time. Now I can internalize this, and go in knowing what to expect and try not to ruin the experience with comparisons. But that's just me.
-
^ Agreed.
I'm glad I know going in rather than thinking it's just this John Harrison and half way through going Oh FFS and not enjoying the movie from that point on.
-
I wish people weren't posting spoilers for a film that hasn't been released yet. WTF
Yeah. I love posting in this thread, but I'm considering avoiding it until the movie comes out. Speculation is fine, but plot discussion is something different.
-
I wish people weren't posting spoilers for a film that hasn't been released yet. WTF
Yeah. I love posting in this thread, but I'm considering avoiding it until the movie comes out. Speculation is fine, but plot discussion is something different.
Maybe we should make a separate thread for the movie (to include spoilers, discussion), and keep this thread to general spoiler free discussion?
-
I agree.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=36805.0
-
Excellent. I don't think anyone should have to miss out on discussing general Star Trek stuff because they want to avoid spoilers, or have to walk a minefield of posts to avoid spoiling details. It wouldn't be fair.
And if you go into a thread specifically for a movie, it's assumed you're going to have spoilers.
-
So, how does Kirk's relationship with Carol Marcus develop?
Well, there's so much happening in this films in terms of plot, in terms of action, it's kind of non-stop, a speeding train of destruction, there's not much time to explore that stuff.
Stuff like FUCKING CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!
(https://www.mst3kjournal.com/misc/kirkfacepalm.png)
-
I actually have no problem with that.* I don't think the relationship with Carol needs to be explored. If this was a mini-series or TV series, it would make more sense. But in film, it is right to not devote time to it. Everything we really need to know about Carol, we got from TWoK. They handled that well considering the structure of that film. Kirk and Carol had a relationship, David, different worlds, goals... that's all we needed to know for that subplot to relate to the overall story. Of course, to that end, I am sure Carol isn't even essential to this film, other than to say "Hey look, more stuff from established canon for you to recognize!"
* holy crap, CC is defending the new Trek film!
-
From what i've read - there's a great deal of plot.
-
Ok, back to non-Into Darkness discussion because we now have a separate thread for this stuff:
Finally arrived yesterday at one of my favorite Voyager episodes, where the crew starts falling apart and then realizes they are actually the copies from the Demon Planet. Man, that episode has everything; an awesome plot twist in the middle, a semi-mutiny, and a crazy ending too.
-
I remember liking that one, but hating the one that set it up. Add to that, Course: Oblivion is one of the worst titles from any of the series. Sounds like some campy 50's sci-fi movie.
-
Ok, back to non-Into Darkness discussion because we now have a separate thread for this stuff:
Finally arrived yesterday at one of my favorite Voyager episodes, where the crew starts falling apart and then realizes they are actually the copies from the Demon Planet. Man, that episode has everything; an awesome plot twist in the middle, a semi-mutiny, and a crazy ending too.
I know what i'm watching on Netflix later then !
-
Ok, back to non-Into Darkness discussion because we now have a separate thread for this stuff:
Finally arrived yesterday at one of my favorite Voyager episodes, where the crew starts falling apart and then realizes they are actually the copies from the Demon Planet. Man, that episode has everything; an awesome plot twist in the middle, a semi-mutiny, and a crazy ending too.
I know what i'm watching on Netflix later then !
Oh god I loved that episode! :metal
-
I remember liking that one, but hating the one that set it up. Add to that, Course: Oblivion is one of the worst titles from any of the series. Sounds like some campy 50's sci-fi movie.
Threshold is the worst episode of Star Trek i've ever seen.
Everything about it was just pure nonsense.
Neelix figuring out in 10 seconds what Star Fleet engineers hadn't been able to.
The Doctor not only restoring Janeway & Paris' DNA to human but getting back their memories and the right age etc.
Just ludicrously bad writing.
-
The Doctor not only restoring Janeway & Paris' DNA to human but getting back their memories and the right age etc.
Just ludicrously bad writing.
That ending really bothered me, yeah.
But, what's really sad is the portrayal of evolution in that episode. A show like Star Trek should really not blatantly misportray such a basic tenet of science. Not really surprising to then see some crazy religious kookoos say "I haven't seen an ape evolve into a human yet!"
-
I remember liking that one, but hating the one that set it up. Add to that, Course: Oblivion is one of the worst titles from any of the series. Sounds like some campy 50's sci-fi movie.
Threshold is the worst episode of Star Trek i've ever seen.
Everything about it was just pure nonsense.
Neelix figuring out in 10 seconds what Star Fleet engineers hadn't been able to.
The Doctor not only restoring Janeway & Paris' DNA to human but getting back their memories and the right age etc.
Just ludicrously bad writing.
While I agree with all of that, what does it have to do with Course: Oblivion? The precursor to that episode was Demon.
-
The Doctor not only restoring Janeway & Paris' DNA to human but getting back their memories and the right age etc.
Just ludicrously bad writing.
That ending really bothered me, yeah.
But, what's really sad is the portrayal of evolution in that episode. A show like Star Trek should really not blatantly misportray such a basic tenet of science. Not really surprising to then see some crazy religious kookoos say "I haven't seen an ape evolve into a human yet!"
According to Star Trek human evolution was guided by an ancient race, too. Maybe they should just leave evolution alone when it comes to dramatic effect.
-
Course: Oblivion is one of the worst titles from any of the series. Sounds like some campy 50's sci-fi movie.
Threshold is the worst episode of Star Trek i've ever seen.
While I agree with all of that, what does it have to do with Course: Oblivion? The precursor to that episode was Demon.
That. :P
-
Ok, back to non-Into Darkness discussion because we now have a separate thread for this stuff:
Finally arrived yesterday at one of my favorite Voyager episodes, where the crew starts falling apart and then realizes they are actually the copies from the Demon Planet. Man, that episode has everything; an awesome plot twist in the middle, a semi-mutiny, and a crazy ending too.
Do you know the name of this ep ? So i can watch it on Netflix ? :) xx
-
Course: Oblivion is the episode Rumborak referred to. Demon is the episode that set the whole thing up. Threshold was just some crappy episode where Paris turned into a gila monster and porked Janeway.
-
:lol Yeah its dreadful.
-
I watched it yesterday too! Where did you watch it?
But yeah, the cliffhanger feeling was not there, because Riker goes straight from "Fire!" to "Oooooh, that didn't work at all."
Exactly. I saw it down in Texas. I almost dressed up, but there was a Starfleet Admiral walking around so I'm glad I stayed incognito. I'm a little young for four pips.
How about those bloopers? "I did not play with boys..."
-
Loved the bloopers. Guinean: "Have you ever considered f****ing it?"
-
Finally arrived yesterday at one of my favorite Voyager episodes, where the crew starts falling apart and then realizes they are actually the copies from the Demon Planet. Man, that episode has everything; an awesome plot twist in the middle, a semi-mutiny, and a crazy ending too.
I like that one. It had one of those good teasers that didn't explain anything, but was just designed to confuse you a bit. I always liked it when they did that. I loved the bleak ending too. I wasn't expecting it.
And Threshold is bad, but it's not the worst thing they've done. Distant Origin is much, much worse. Yes, that's the one where dinosaurs apparently evolved to the point of space travel, left our planet and ended up in the Delta Quadrant, then became a bad allegory.
-
Uugh, yeah that one is bad. I think I skipped it a few minutes in.
-
Actually, that sounds awesome...ly stupid. :lol
I'll have to watch it on Netflix sometime soon.
-
Oh, that reminds me of the ONE Star Trek episode of all 720+ that I couldn't watch to the end. Spirit Folk. Awful episode. It made me want to punch kittens.
-
which one be that blob? elaborate if you will
-
which one be that blob? elaborate if you will
For a few episodes they had the town of Fair Haven(?) in the holodeck. In Spirit Folk, they become self aware and realize that the Voyager crew are disappearing at will, and figure they're evil spirit folk, and hold them hostage on the holodeck with pitchforks, and I can't remember what horribly contrived excuse the story gives for not just shutting down the holodeck and deleting the whole damn thing, but basically we're supposed to believe that the Voyager crew were overcome by a bunch of ass-backwards holodeck hicks.
-
Oh snap I remember that one! It was... interesting
-
Here's a peculiar thing they showed at the theater before Best Of Both Worlds: LeVar Burton talked about the show in general, and he said that he stopped watching the episodes at some point, with (I thought rather sad) result that he hasn't seen several season's worth of episodes he actually appears in.
-
Here's a peculiar thing they showed at the theater before Best Of Both Worlds: LeVar Burton talked about the show in general, and he said that he stopped watching the episodes at some point, with (I thought rather sad) result that he hasn't seen several season's worth of episodes he actually appears in.
I think that's actually somewhat common. I don't think Patrick Stewart watched any of them. It always amused me when people try to ask them questions because even the casual ST fan knows 10x more about the show than any of the principle actors. I recall Stewart joking about fans who actually knew the names of episodes.
-
I don't know the names of every episode I watch but I try to make a note of episodes that I particularly enjoyed so as to find them at a later date.
However - i'm pretty sure I know the name of every episode of Futurama ;D
-
Heya Trekkies:
(https://i.imgur.com/8L6ZYCw.jpg)
-
Man, I'm watching another Voyager episode just now. Seven's boob suits are just ridiculous at times.
-
Man, I'm watching another Voyager episode just now. Seven's boob suits are just ridiculously awesome at all the times.
FTFY
:angel:
-
Man, I'm watching another Voyager episode just now. Seven's boob suits are just ridiculous at times.
Aside from the original suit, weren't they all the same thing in different colours? The only one I found ridiculous was the original silver one used for promo shots, and only used in maybe the first episode she was in. It had the ribs on it, and it looked so blatantly "look at the hot chick in the scifi show". Like, even more than her usual catsuits. :lol
-
Man, I'm watching another Voyager episode just now. Seven's boob suits are just ridiculous at times.
It's as if they were painted on. No complaints here though.
-
It bugged me, just because it was cheap tactic as opposed to putting some effort forward to improve the show. Heck, Jolene Blalock had almost a conservative character design by comparison.
-
It bugged me, just because it was cheap tactic as opposed to putting some effort forward to improve the show. Heck, Jolene Blalock had almost a conservative character design by comparison.
But the thing is, it did improve the show. Dramatically, in fact. Not the fact she was wearing a cat suit, but her character. It was a definite turning point in the show.
-
I never liked the Borg twist much, myself. I guess things did improve, but to me the show still peaked at Caretaker.
-
Caretaker? Did you like not watch past season 1 at all? That episode was average at best. Once they hit season 3/4, there were so many amazing episodes.
-
Yeah, that's the bizarre part. They cast this titty monster for obvious reasons, but then actually manage to infuse the series with a vital new plot source.
Whereas Garret Wang, there's one character they should have axed.
-
Yeah, that's the bizarre part. They cast this titty monster for obvious reasons, but then actually manage to infuse the series with a vital new plot source.
Whereas Garret Wang, there's one character they should have axed.
And they rarely played her character for sex appeal factor. I don't mind eye candy as long as it's not compromising the show, and it didn't. She was easily one of the better characters of the show.
Of course with people like Ensign Kim around, that's not necessarily saying much. :lol
-
Yeah, that's the bizarre part. They cast this titty monster for obvious reasons, but then actually manage to infuse the series with a vital new plot source.
Whereas Garret Wang, there's one character they should have axed.
As we said aboive, he was supposed to be axed but got saved by being in Times magazine as a sexy person.
Caretaker? Did you like not watch past season 1 at all? That episode was average at best. Once they hit season 3/4, there were so many amazing episodes.
Seen most of the series, but I really enjoy Caretaker. The reason I think it peaked there was the show quickly got away from all of the setup the pilot offered, not that it was the best episode. Caretaker was the only point in the series I was genuinely excited, the next few episodes quickly quashed the show to TNG style and as I hoped what I was excited from would materialize, after a season or two it was clear it wasn't. I just never understood why they gave themselves so many great cards to play and threw them away right out of the gate.
-
As I've said before, Caretaker is the best of the series premiers, and a solid episode in on it's own.
-
I almost agree with you. Caretaker's definitely solid as a pilot, but it was still pretty average episode, and was lacking personality, or anything all that interesting happening. It did a decent job of setting up the premise they ignored, and that's about it for me. I'd easily rank it second, but that's mostly because I rank the other pilots pretty lowly.
I say DS9 had by far the best pilot episode. It wasn't an amazing episode either, but I was impressed with how well it set up the show, and it kept me watching despite my strong initial reluctance to watch the show.
Enterprise's pilot was so bad that I didn't even watch another episode for years after seeing it, and didn't even rewatch it when I did finally go through them all.
TNG's pilot is a complete mess that felt like two episodes tacked together with awful flow. By the time Q came back near the end of the episode, I'd completely forgotten about that subplot.
As for TOS, those very earliest episodes were among the worse ones imo, although if we go by the unaired pilot of The Cage, then it was actually fairly solid.
-
Emissary and Caretaker are the two best, I think, but if you count The Cage it might get a mention, too.
TNG's I used to think I liked, but after finally seeing it again in the last few years, it's awful. I kind of want to watch Enterprise's pilot again. My recollection was that if you take the time stuff out it wasn't too bad. Don't think I really loved an episode until the Andorans showed up with Combs.
-
I almost agree with you. Caretaker's definitely solid as a pilot, but it was still pretty average episode, and was lacking personality, or anything all that interesting happening. It did a decent job of setting up the premise they ignored, and that's about it for me. I'd easily rank it second, but that's mostly because I rank the other pilots pretty lowly.
I say DS9 had by far the best pilot episode. It wasn't an amazing episode either, but I was impressed with how well it set up the show, and it kept me watching despite my strong initial reluctance to watch the show.
I tend to agree with this.
I just watched Caretaker again a couple of months ago and was surprised by how... boring most of it was. It does a good job with setting up the premise, but aside from that, not much else happens in the episode.
I know Barto isn't all that keen on The Emissary and while I agree with most/all of his criticisms they don't detract as much from the experience for me as they do for him. Although Jennifer's acting is probably some of the absolute worst acting in all of Trek. It's a pretty engaging episode that manages to set up the premise of the show, introduce a plethora of main and side characters, have the 'main' character go through a bit of an arc and tell a somewhat cohesive story with a beginning, middle and end. Yes, Avery Brooks is at his absolute hammiest and Siddig El Fadil is pretty bad too. And there's a couple of other moments of erm... 'questionable acting' sprinkled throughout, but I think it largely holds up rather well.
The scenes where Sisko is with the Prophets do tend to drag a bit, but overall I can rewatch the episode and be mostly pleased with it. Except for whenever Jennifer is onscreen. She was godawful.
-
The Enterprise pilot was dire.
It hardly even set anything up and may as well have been a mediocre mid season episode.
-
I thought Broken Bow was alright. Nothing to write home about, but certainly better than most of the pilots. As for TOS, I seem to like WNMHGB better than most people here. As a pilot, it has the advantage of being a good story first, rather than trying to setup a dozen characters and premises all at once. Considering that most of the time the characters don't wind up being anything like their pilot versions anyway, this is for the better.
I suppose if I were to rank them, it'd be:
Caretaker
WNMHGB
Broken Bow
Emissary
Farpoint
-
WNMHGB didn't even manage to be a particularly good story to me, despite the lack of characters to deal with in TOS. It was a cliche, cheesy '60s scifi plot. The Cage was a much better story. I think even Shatner's Kirk would have worked really well in that one, although I guess he wouldn't have resisted the girl. :lol
If we're going to be ranking, I'd go-
Emissary - Works perfectly as a pilot, decent episode.
Caretaker - Sets up the premise pretty well, works ok as a standalone episode.
Broken Bow - As dull and sterile as the show itself, but I suppose it worked.
Encounter at Farpoint - I sense pain. PAIN.
WNMHGB - Let's hope no man goes there again
Interestingly, while I think TOS had the weakest pilot, it definitely found its mark and managed to maintain quality a lot earlier than any of the other series. Some of the very early TOS episodes are quite bad, but once it hits the second half of season one, they start churning out the classics, continuing through season 2. Then apparently S3 is when it drops in quality (can't say I noticed any difference, myself).
It's amusing that this is the complete opposite of every other Trek series. In fact, the first 2 seasons of every other Trek show are by far the weakest, with the show improving almost instantaneously with the 3rd season. Think about it.
The first two seasons of TNG had the writer's strike, so we had the Wesley show, then a season of Pulaski struggling through to an early ending with a hacked together clip show. S3 is when it picked up and started to get good.
DS9 was consistently pretty good from the start, but it was the first episode of season 3 that they brought in the Defiant and really picked up the Dominion arc, and started exploring the Gamma Quadrant, and got off the station.
Voyager's first two seasons were pretty lost, then in the two parter leading into S3, they instantly got rid of the laughable barnacle heads, then the show improved noticeably, and they gave the Doc the holoemitter midway through the season. Then from S4 it really took off.
Enterprise's first two seasons were uninspired rehashes of older Trek, but with weaker characters, then in S3 they kicked right into the Xindi arc, with S3 and 4 universally considered the best.
Let's hope if they ever bring Trek back to the small screen that it gets at least 3 seasons. :lol
-
Starting DS9 for my first run through....
-
Spock vs Spock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WPkByAkAdZs#!
-
That was great.
-
I saw that linked from the official FB page. I laughed so hard when he started singing the Bilbo Baggins song. :lol And the TWOK reference was amazing. I :heart Nimoy so much.
-
Spock vs Spock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WPkByAkAdZs#!
Excellent.
I want Young Spock's house.
Every time they showed the Audi there were lens flairs somewhere. Another nice touch.
-
Spock vs Spock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WPkByAkAdZs#!
Excellent.
I want Young Spock's house.
Every time they showed the Audi there were lens flairs somewhere. Another nice touch.
:rollin I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. And they're clearly added intentionally, as they don't line up to the sun angle.
I also just noticed they appear to be playing 3D chess, like they played in TOS (sorry, I don't really know chess, but you know what I mean).
-
Oh my that's awesome :rollin. Has it aired on TV yet?
-
The Wrath of Khan nod = best bit.
-
holy crap :lol
-
I had initially missed the part that they were playing 3-D chess. Awesome :lol
-
Chess is an ongoing theme in the "Audi vs BMW" campaign. I thought it was interesting that they've extended it (conceptually, anyway) to Mercedes, which is what Nimoy was driving.
(https://yasaminsamiei.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/audi-takes-quick-chess-lessons-from-bmw-5792_1.jpg)
-
What I love about the video is that for once they didn't dumb it down, i.e. only do super-obvious ST references. That ad was like a Where's Waldo" of Star Trek insider jokes.
-
THAT WAS AWESOME!
-
What I love about the video is that for once they didn't dumb it down, i.e. only do super-obvious ST references. That ad was like a Where's Waldo" of Star Trek insider jokes.
Thats why it was amazing.
-
Damn me, I hadn't realized this about TNG until I watched this clip just now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVIGhYMwRgs Especially 0:15! :lol
-
That's a coincidence as Damon Lindelof tweeted something about his wife not liking it when
" He sat down like Riker . "
I had no idea what he meant and then this clip shows up.
:lol
-
LOL I had never paid attention to that before.
-
Kind of creepy once you notice it. :lol
-
(https://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/6/5/6/179656_slide.jpg?v=1)
-
Ain't that the truth.
-
They didn't even try to hide it on DS9.
-
Speaking of holodecks, imagine the pranks you could pull with one of those things.
For April Fool's Day, you could move someone in their sleep to the holodeck, and start up a program that recreates their regular room/day, so they wake up without realizing anything was wrong, get out of bed, and get changed into what are actually holographic clothes (they've done that a few times), then you jump in and yell "COMPUTER, END PROGRAM!" and suddenly their clothes disappear along with the program.
-
What if they tried to eat breakfast, first?
-
What if they tried to eat breakfast, first?
They've been a little iffy on that point throughout the show. I've heard that they can get the feeling of eating/drinking somehow, but just gain no nutrition from it (don't know how they explain flavour), and then other times I've heard that it can replicate the food as the replicator does, rather than merely project it, so they could actually eat it.
-
What are other holoprojector questions? One I always wanted to know was how it sectioned off the room when people go to different areas. The room isn't that big, and sometimes they're all in different places. How does it physically situate them around the holodeck room? When they come back together are they looking at the real person or are both looking at a projection of the other? With too many people it could be a real mess for the poor holodeck. It shows the walls sometimes, but it clearly doesn't require everyone stay within a small distance of one another. If 50 people were in there and all ran away from each other, it would have to block them at the walls, right? ...but if two people were int here and ran in opposite directions it seems the holodeck adjusts.
-
The plain fact is that they mostly ignore those issues. The holodeck is just the magical place where they can show whatever they want, but the concept doesn't really work with how they present it.
-
I know they ignore it, it was a tongue-in-cheek question. Star Trek isn't hard scifi, that's all that really matters on these questions. I'd love to see a hard scifi treatment of something really close to holodecks, though, to see what they would postulate as an answer to that kind of thing.
-
What are other holoprojector questions? One I always wanted to know was how it sectioned off the room when people go to different areas. The room isn't that big, and sometimes they're all in different places. How does it physically situate them around the holodeck room? When they come back together are they looking at the real person or are both looking at a projection of the other? With too many people it could be a real mess for the poor holodeck. It shows the walls sometimes, but it clearly doesn't require everyone stay within a small distance of one another. If 50 people were in there and all ran away from each other, it would have to block them at the walls, right? ...but if two people were int here and ran in opposite directions it seems the holodeck adjusts.
It was supposedly capable of refracting light in such a way as to make others appear bigger or smaller. So everybody stays in the same place, but appear closer or further away.
-
That doesn't answer what happens when they get close again, though. Are you never touching the real person, then, just a hologram mimicking them? If you start a foot apart, the program has to adjust from physical movement to illusion at some point, you can't stay a foot apart the whole time, you'd bump into each other.
-
I know they ignore it, it was a tongue-in-cheek question. Star Trek isn't hard scifi, that's all that really matters on these questions. I'd love to see a hard scifi treatment of something really close to holodecks, though, to see what they would postulate as an answer to that kind of thing.
I think in a "hard scifi" situation, the better solution would be small, one person holodecks that can network together for situations where multiple people are participating in a larger simulation. Any explanation as to how a single holodeck can seamlessly handle multiple people is just grasping at straws to me. :lol
-
Oh, you're right, I don't know of any hard scifi that goes for an all out holodeck type situation like Star Trek. Projections, ability of matter to reshape itself, implanted images into mind, you see those kinds of things in hard sco fi.
-
Holodeck = room of requirement.
/thread
-
I don't get it.
-
It's pretty astute though, yeah. The Holodeck was whatever the writers needed to be.
-
The laws of the Star Trek universe were whatever the writers needed it to be, not just the holodecks.
-
Shatner's Toupee stood in as a tribble for one episode.
-
It even demanded it's own trailer as well.
... That's the trouble with toupees.
-
A pink one?
-
Pink but slightly red so It would feel at home.
-
Just watched Nemesis again and despite it's reputation - I still enjoy it.
I think I prefer it to Insurrection !
Out of the 4 TNG movies - id rank them Generations > First Contact > Nemesis > Insurrection.
What is it about Nemesis that everyone hated ?
Apart from it being a Wrath Of Khan re-write ( at least Into Darkness is affectionate about it - Nemesis feels like a pastiche at best ).
The directing isn't *terrible* and it has some nice set pieces. It was just directed by someone who
a.) Didn't know Trek & b.) Was an action director.
Insurrection just felt like a double length episode with a budget.
I liked Nemesis at the cinema and I still enjoy it now.
I might watch the other three again to see if I change my mind :)
-
There is no way Generations is better than First Contact.
-
The wedding was a freakin MESS.
Shinzon's character, and the whole idea of where he came from was hokey and completely unengaging.
Trio's mental rape scene was uncomfortable and unnecessary...it only made me wish the same thing would happen to whoever wrote that dreck.
To be fair, the ONLY cool parts were the one on one scenes with Picard and Shinzon. And that is carried completely on the shoulders of two amazingly talented actors and only exists to prove that even bad writing can be overcome with talented acting.
Don't EVEN get me started on the incredibly stupid B4 subplot. :censored
-
There is no way Generations is better than First Contact.
-
....and btw.
While I admit that it is for very personal reasons...Insurrection is my all time #1 Star Trek movie.
I will say that V has aged surprisingly well. (with the exception of the hideous campfire scenes that I can't even watch out of embarrassment for the actors involved)
-
Why on Insurrection? Just curious.
Michael Pillar, the writer, even made fun of it in The Dead Zone (his show after DS9). :lol
-
There is no way Generations is better than First Contact.
For you maybe but I prefer it for a number of reasons. Primarily how they both made me *feel* at the cinema. And you can't be wrong about that.
I loved Soran's character. I loved the cinematography and the whole feel of Generations - the music - the idea of The Nexus.
-
Why on Insurrection? Just curious.
Michael Pillar, the writer, even made fun of it in The Dead Zone (his show after DS9). :lol
Plus you can totally tell that ILM didn't do the CGI on that film. It just looks odd.
-
There is no way Generations is better than First Contact.
For you maybe but I prefer it for a number of reasons. Primarily how they both made me *feel* at the cinema. And you can't be wrong about that.
I loved Soran's character. I loved the cinematography and the whole feel of Generations - the music - the idea of The Nexus.
Same for me.
-
There is no way Generations is better than First Contact.
Yes, the cinematography on Generations was fantastic. First Contact story, characters interaction, flow, action... everything a good Star Trek movie should be. Generations and Insurrection (as mentioned) feel like long episodes. That's not a bad thing, but they could've been written as two part tv shows. First Contact was a movie experience.
I too don't think Nemesis deserves the hate it gets. Not the worst in the franchise. Jingle.son and I are going to revisit the movies. Just did TWOK yesterday, and going to make our way thru them all.
-
Why on Insurrection? Just curious.
Michael Pillar, the writer, even made fun of it in The Dead Zone (his show after DS9). :lol
My answer could only be explained in the p/r thread. But if you're still curious, pm me and I'll explain it without being preachy.
-
I can explain why I love Generations without being preachy.
It just made me really emotional in a good way. I thought it was a beautiful film.
The old cast's final appearance - Kirk's death. The majestic nature of the Nexus.
The score - the lighting.
First Contact is a great Star Trek movie but it didn't move me like Generations did back in 1994 when I was 16 years old. :'(
I was a little bit obsessed with the Nexus after that. I know everyone on here thinks it's a McGuffin but I loved everything about it.
-
First Contact probably was the best of the TNG movies, but not by much. There was a lot of genuine stupidity going on with it. Insurrection wasn't quite as stupid, but it wasn't as good a story as FC.
-
Apart from it being a Wrath Of Khan re-write ( at least Into Darkness is incredibly blatant about it - Nemesis feels like a pastiche at best ).
FTFY :biggrin:
Generations is frustrating, because it could have been a really good movie. The inclusion of the original cast (and not even the complete cast) and the whole Nexus plothole drag it down considerably, and Dennis McCarthy is no jerry Goldsmith either. But the character moments and dynamic in the movie are quite good for the movies, and the Enterprise D interiors never looked so good as they did in Generations.
And as much as I enjoy Kirk dying, it was a totally lame death. Let him die being torn apart by a pack of Gorns or something. Or die of space-herpes. Or let him kamikaze dive the Enterprise-D right into Soran's missile to save the day. It's how he would have wanted to go.
I'd have to rank them FC > Insurrection > Generations > Nemesis
-
Hmm, can't say Kirk's death bothered me much. He died in a hand fight, which seemed a rather fitting end for someone like Kirk.
-
Let's not forget his first death, bailing out that idiot Harriman and rescuing the Enterprise a whole lot of grungy refugees.
-
Just started season 3 of DS9 :caffeine:
-
Hmm, can't say Kirk's death bothered me much. He died in a hand fight, which seemed a rather fitting end for someone like Kirk.
I just felt he could have had a more meaningful death under the circumstances, doing something a bit grander than having a fight and having a bridge land on him. :dunno:
Just started season 3 of DS9 :caffeine:
And it will just keep getting better and better. :tup
-
I've been waiting for the Dominion episodes to start :D
-
Let's not forget his first death, bailing out that idiot Harriman and rescuing the Enterprise B and a whole lot of grungy refugees.
Yes. he already had a heroes death.
-
So here's something that's only now occurred to me. Ben Sisko was ethically opposed to the Vic's lounge holoprogram because he didn't like the racism inherent in Vegas of that era. He was actually quite a little bitch about it. Yet he was a fanatic about baseball, arguably the most racist institution since the slave trade. In terms of treatment of blacks, there's really no comparison. This makes the man either stupid or a hypocrite.
-
So here's something that's only now occurred to me. Ben Sisko was ethically opposed to the Vic's lounge holoprogram because he didn't like the racism inherent in Vegas of that era. He was actually quite a little bitch about it. Yet he was a fanatic about baseball, arguably the most racist institution since the slave trade. In terms of treatment of blacks, there's really no comparison. This makes the man either stupid or a hypocrite.
I see nothing either stupid or hypocritical about it. Playing a sport isn't an inherently racist thing to do.
From what I recall, his problem wasn't that it was a racist period, it was that the simulation ignored the fact it was a racist period, and he felt glossed over the issue.
-
So here's something that's only now occurred to me. Ben Sisko was ethically opposed to the Vic's lounge holoprogram because he didn't like the racism inherent in Vegas of that era. He was actually quite a little bitch about it. Yet he was a fanatic about baseball, arguably the most racist institution since the slave trade. In terms of treatment of blacks, there's really no comparison. This makes the man either stupid or a hypocrite.
It makes him neither. He opposed the program because it was a false presentation of a setting that faced racial segregation. Baseball he was playing in a modern setting and watching historically accurate games. There's just no correlation. He'd probably be pissed to see the Dodgers pre Jackie Robinson racially integrated in a holoprogram, and he'd probably have no issue traveling to modern Las Vegas for a vacation.
-
A couple of problems. For one thing, I'm not sure how the holoprogram wasn't Representative of the segregation at the time. But more importantly, the era they were representing was well after Vegas had become desegregated. Sisco would have been welcome at that club, and there would have been black musicians performing. As for baseball, it was inherently racist from the time it became professional. Absurdly so, often to it's own detriment. Yet it doesn't appear that he had any problem watching recreations of famous games from that era, despite the fact that he probably wouldn't have been let through the gate.
-
Maybe he just liked watching baseball games and wasn't aware of all the racial stuff in the history of the game.
-
The program can be segregated without treating real life participants that way. If he wanted to see Jackie Robinson's first at bat somehow his issue should mean he cannot enter the program because of his race? There's a difference between witnessing an event, even in the stands, and being someone reliving the event.
The program wasn't representative of the time. We're talking early 60's Vegas, you think race wasn't an issue? Late 50's/Early 60's were the heart of desegregation fights in the city, Even if you had spots blacks could be customers or could particiapte in the band, there were major problems and it would not have been a 'no issue' setting.
-
The program can be segregated without treating real life participants that way. If he wanted to see Jackie Robinson's first at bat somehow his issue should mean he cannot enter the program because of his race? There's a difference between witnessing an event, even in the stands, and being someone reliving the event.
I don't think so. Didn't he take a glove when he and Jake went to games? Obviously they were participating in the event, rather than just watching it TV style. Besides which, given his militant attitude about racism in our history, it just seems unlikely that he'd be such a baseball fan.
As for Vegas, the early sixties still had some race issues, but it's when things were turning around. The protests had been in 1960 and the city was becoming much more open. Seems to me like that'd be a period where a militant black man like Sisko would want to be a witness to change.
-
They did play with historical figures, but I don't know how often it was specific on when they were going. We know they played a lot with fictional (our future) players, we heard Willie Mays. Your insistence that because baseball has a rough past it should be outright disregarded is ridiculous. Baseball was never racist, people in baseball were racist. Do you think all blacks and Hispanics playing in MLB are ignorant of the sports past? Why should the sport's past prevent Sisko from enjoying the sport? Shit, Sisko might as well dislike humanity because humanity has a dirty past. I can't understand why he associates with them.
On Vegas, you've lost me. His problem is that there is no issue in the program, but there would have been. That those events just took place doesn't meant he city magically was desegregated and didn't have racist undertones.
To me, you're drawing lines to get to a conclusion rather than finding lines that form a conclusion. You're saying he shouldn't be offended by the Vegas program and also saying that means he should be offended by his own baseball programs, which we have little detail about. Isn't it easier to just accept that the misrepresentation (which it was) upset him and baseball was not misrepresented? You can appreciate a sport and it's historical players without condoning or supporting its political underpinnings. What do we know from the show about Sisko and baseball that makes you think he didn't ind pretending the sport was never segregated? Not some assumption you draw up, what from the show directly indicated a similar scenario to the Vegas one?
-
They did play with historical figures, but I don't know how often it was specific on when they were going. We know they played a lot with fictional (our future) players, we heard Willie Mays. Your insistence that because baseball has a rough past it should be outright disregarded is ridiculous. Baseball was never racist, people in baseball were racist. Do you think all blacks and Hispanics playing in MLB are ignorant of the sports past? Why should the sport's past prevent Sisko from enjoying the sport? Shit, Sisko might as well dislike humanity because humanity has a dirty past. I can't understand why he associates with them.
For one thing, regarding whether baseball or people were racist, it's probably somewhere in between. We're talking about an ingrained, institutional racism. It really goes far beyond a few owners not wanting blacks to play in their league. As for it's affect on Sisko, I'm not saying he should have necessarily been offended by baseball. I am saying it's incongruous for him to get his panties in a bunch about Vic Fontaine while adoring a far more sinister institution in MLB.
To me, you're drawing lines to get to a conclusion rather than finding lines that form a conclusion. You're saying he shouldn't be offended by the Vegas program and also saying that means he should be offended by his own baseball programs, which we have little detail about.
No, I'm saying it's strange to object to one and not the other. My point isn't that he shouldn't be troubled by the Vegas representation, or that he should be bent out of shape over MLB. It's just that the way he parses his view (or outright ignores it) doesn't make much sense to me.
-
Don't agree, we're wasting each other's time.
-
It's only a waste of time if you're not willing to consider a contrary point of view. I thought the initial argument that it was merely the representation of Vegas, and not what Vegas stood for, to be somewhat compelling and something I hadn't originally considered. I just don't think it diminishes the issue with the character.
-
A waste of time is going back and forth on the same counter arguments, which is where my next post would have been headed. I don't know why you would end up responding different to the same arguments, so why keep going?
-
This thread has been somewhat plunged.......
...Into Darkness. :hat
-
Watched Nemesis fine. No problems. Enjoyed it.
Couldn't last more than half an hour of Insurrection. Gah it takes an eternity to get exciting :P
Plus I wasn't in the best moods to watch a film about a magical planet where you never get old :lol
-
Plus I wasn't in the best moods to watch a film about a magical planet where you never get old :lol
Why not? You seem to be thrilled about watching films with magical blood that can raise the dead and cure radiation poisoning. :biggrin:
-
I didn't mean it in a " that's so stupid " way..
More of a " I hate my life " kinda way :)
-
Gotcha. Maybe a nice trip to Risa will take your mind off it, bud. I don't know about living forever, but I can recommend you an Orion slave girl who could suck the spots off a Trill, if you know what I mean. ;)
-
:metal boom
-
Found this online :
(https://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/157/a/2/my_jj_excelsior_colored_by_balsavor-d3i8cz6.jpg)
The Excelsior if it was in the new JJ timeline. Pretty nice I think :)
-
Mind = blown.
I had no idea Tim Russ was the guy who yells "we ain't found shit!" in Spaceballs.
-
Mind = blown.
I had no idea Tim Russ was the guy who yells "we ain't found shit!" in Spaceballs.
Damn, I knew that but I forgot all about it.
I find it funny how we never follow someone's career then they are on a particular show we love and then you see them everywhere on TV.
-
Baader-Meinhof ;D
Tim Russ was also on the Enterprise B in GEN [ Or was it on the Excelsior in TUC ? ) and then he was Tuvok on Voyager.
Blob probably knows how they explained that away . . I can't remember.
-
Generations
-
There's a guy in TMP who always reminds me Bashir.
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Collins
This Guy ? The previous Enterprise Captain [ in TMP } ?
Bald girl's hubby ? ;D
-
(https://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051015180259/memoryalpha/en/images/e/ea/Branch.jpg)
Commander Branch he's called, on listening post Epsilon IX.
-
Baader-Meinhof ;D
Tim Russ was also on the Enterprise B in GEN [ Or was it on the Excelsior in TUC ? ) and then he was Tuvok on Voyager.
Blob probably knows how they explained that away . . I can't remember.
I believe he was also a terrorist in a TNG episode.
I don't think he was in Undiscovered Country, but he was aboard Excelsior during those events, as shown during the VOY episode Flashback. As for explaining it away, an explanation is only required if he plays the same character. Flashback explained Tuvok's appearances, and in Generations, TNG and Spaceballs he played completely different characters.
-
Baader-Meinhof ;D
Tim Russ was also on the Enterprise B in GEN [ Or was it on the Excelsior in TUC ? ) and then he was Tuvok on Voyager.
Blob probably knows how they explained that away . . I can't remember.
I believe he was also a terrorist in a TNG episode.
I don't think he was in Undiscovered Country, but he was aboard Excelsior during those events, as shown during the VOY episode Flashback. As for explaining it away, an explanation is only required if he plays the same character. Flashback explained Tuvok's appearances, and in Generations, TNG and Spaceballs he played completely different characters.
He was in TUC, but as a generic human officer, that you'd only spot if you were looking for him.
I think the appearance in Flashback was intended to retcon that to actually be Tuvok, which was probably their best way to get Sulu in their anniversary episode (which I recall was to make up for the fact he doesn't appear in The Trouble With Tribbles, which DS9 used for their anniversary episode aired at the same time "Trials and Tribble-ations").
Tim Russ also played a Klingon in the DS9 episode Invasive Procedures, before he joined Voyager. And he was very close to playing Geordi on TNG. I guess they must have really liked him. :lol
-
David Warner played a few different characters too.
Trek really likes re-using their actors.
Jaochim from TWOK was in an episode of TNG as well [ albeit as a different character ].
-
I know the dude from TWOK you mean (the TNG episode with the addictive space crop, right?)
I always like spotting the reused actors. Since they're often under make-up, they can get away with it.
Tony Todd played Worf's brother, he played the Hirogen warrior in Voyager, and he played future Jake Sisko in DS9. Of course, there's nothing they can do to disguise that great deep gravelly voice.
-
Marc Alaimo (Gul Dukat) also played the first Cardassian ever on screen in TNG as... some other Gul. He also played Romulan commander in The Neutral Zone in Season 1.
The guy who played Martok also played a couple of other bit parts, namely a rogue changeling and one of Sisko's bridge crew mates during the Battle at Wolf 359.
-
Brent Spiner played Data, Lore & Nooien Soong all in one episode didn't he ?
Must have been challenging and fun.
-
And annoying to watch. Data was a good character. Soong was alright, but nothing great. Lore was a terrible character.
-
I was glad when they finally disassembled him and left him floating in space :P
-
Spiner was always very dismissive of Star Trek, but IMO he was kinda lucky given his acting skill to have gotten the exposure he did.
-
Spiner was always very dismissive of Star Trek, but IMO he was kinda lucky given his acting skill to have gotten the exposure he did.
He's a VERY talented actor...I especially liked the episode where he got possessed by that ancient civilization. ("Musaka is waking") It really gave him a chance to get into several different characters all at once, and I think he did a brilliant job. He probably just is dismissive of it for the same reasons most other ST actors get that way....they get typecast and then they can't find any other jobs except sci-fi walk ons.
-
I love the episode you refer to (Masks), but IMHO it showcases the problem with Spiner's acting. He massively overacts, to the point where the characters become bizarre instead of believable.
-
Did anyone see Out to Sea? The Jack Lemmon/Walter Matthau buddy flick from 1997? In it, Lemmon and Matthau play buddies who get a free cruise by stowing away and then posing as dance instructors. (I'm going from memory, so I might be a bit off)
But Brent Spiner plays the cruise director and MC of events in the showroom. HILARIOUS role. He does the most "white" version of Oye Como Va I have ever heard in my life....cracks me up every time. I'll never hear that song the same way again. Really loved him in that role.
-
I love the episode you refer to (Masks), but IMHO it showcases the problem with Spiner's acting. He massively overacts, to the point where the characters become bizarre instead of believable.
He somehow overacts and is still wooden at the same time. It's one of those situations where they cast an actor perfectly for the part. He did a great job as Data, but I've never been impressed with him in another acting role.
-
What does everyone think of https://www.startrekcontinues.com/episodes/#.UaHsxNLVDTo ??
It's a neat idea - carrying on where TOS left off.
The accents are even more dodgy than usual and Scotty is played by Chris Doohan - who is also in Into Darkness &ST2009
-
I watched it yesterday, and thought it was decent for a fan film.
They captured the sets and lighting and uniforms almost perfectly. Spock and Bones are poorly cast and acted, and were pretty useless, but Chris Doohan really fits well as Scotty for obvious reason, despite the not so good accent. The rest were decent enough for a fan film.
It was silly to include holodecks and a ship councilor, as those are TNG era trademarks, and don't fit with TOS.
And the story was silly optimistic fantasy rather than what I'd consider true scifi, but that fits with TOS.
Overall it's probably the best Trek fan film I've seen, or at least on par with New Voyages.
-
Baader-Meinhof ;D
Tim Russ was also on the Enterprise B in GEN [ Or was it on the Excelsior in TUC ? ) and then he was Tuvok on Voyager.
Blob probably knows how they explained that away . . I can't remember.
I believe he was also a terrorist in a TNG episode.
Couple days late on this, but yes, Tim Russ was one of the guys that was raiding the Enterprise when it had to be swept with a Barion field (if I recall). The ship was in space dock, and everyone got off except Picard (who went back for his saddle, and luckily, to thwart the terrorist plot)
-
:metal Star Trek VI just started on Film 4.
Not seen this one in ages. been meaning to..
-
One thing that still confuses me is : why would finding the gravity boots and uniforms prove the assassins came from enterprise ?
They knew that's what happened.
???
They knew that they used gravity boots and came from Enterprise - I still don't understand how finding the boots and uniforms and klingon blood on board Enterprise proves that Kirk and McCoy are innocent ?
-
Were they supposed to prove the innocence? IIRC the boots just lead Spock and the others to search on the Enterprise.
But, there's a bit of a danger of looking to deep into that whole deduction. Because there's still the glaring plot hole that any moron could distinguish a photon torpedo fired from one of the Enterprise's torpedo holes, from one fired from a Bird of Prey physically hovering below the Enterprise. It's a torpedo, it has a trajectory.
All the Enterprise needed to do was to have the Klingons look at their own footage and see that a torpedo magically appears below the Enterprise.
-
Even though Chang was in on it and he was in charge on The Kronos. He wouldn't have allowed that.
-
Watched STID for the second time today, and I'd say it easily has the best performances of any ST movie. I have 1 or 2 minor gripes, but overall I felt the movie was spectacular.
-
Yeah the acting was great. Cumberbatch especially. He was just so sinister.
-
I love the episode you refer to (Masks), but IMHO it showcases the problem with Spiner's acting. He massively overacts, to the point where the characters become bizarre instead of believable.
He somehow overacts and is still wooden at the same time. It's one of those situations where they cast an actor perfectly for the part. He did a great job as Data, but I've never been impressed with him in another acting role.
That's the case with almost all of the actors. When you create a character, you act perfectly for it by default. Dorn was perfect as Worf, but couldn't play anybody else to save his life. Shatner and Visitor were both pretty bad, but they define their characters. As long as they play themselves they're always just fine. The problem is when you get to some of the DS9 episodes where they play their mirror counterparts, or go back in time to play 40's era writers and they're all just awful. This certainly applied to Spiner. Loved Data, hated Lore.
The good actors tended to be the go-to guys. The ones who played a variety of characters on different series. Todd and Combs are obvious examples.
Hated Masks, BTW.
-
I love the episode you refer to (Masks), but IMHO it showcases the problem with Spiner's acting. He massively overacts, to the point where the characters become bizarre instead of believable.
He somehow overacts and is still wooden at the same time. It's one of those situations where they cast an actor perfectly for the part. He did a great job as Data, but I've never been impressed with him in another acting role.
That's the case with almost all of the actors. When you create a character, you act perfectly for it by default. Dorn was perfect as Worf, but couldn't play anybody else to save his life. Shatner and Visitor were both pretty bad, but they define their characters. As long as they play themselves they're always just fine. The problem is when you get to some of the DS9 episodes where they play their mirror counterparts, or go back in time to play 40's era writers and they're all just awful. This certainly applied to Spiner. Loved Data, hated Lore.
The good actors tended to be the go-to guys. The ones who played a variety of characters on different series. Todd and Combs are obvious examples.
Hated Masks, BTW.
Agreed on Dorn. Unfortunately a few of the Voyager actors couldn't even manage to act well as themselves (I'm looking at you Chakatoy, Harry Kim, and Tom Paris).
Nana Visitor was a good actor though, at least when she was playing Kira. Mirror Universe I thought she was still ok, especially compared to the others (ugh I hated all of the DS9 mirror universe episodes), and I recall her being good in Far Beyond The Stars too.
And I love Combs. He was so good that they basically made up characters just to stick him in there. :lol It was no wonder he was a stand-out among the cardboard cutouts of Enterprise as Shran. Apparently they were going to make him a regular character in S5 of Enterprise, which would have been a smart move. It almost makes me sad that they canceled it. Almost.
-
Were they supposed to prove the innocence? IIRC the boots just lead Spock and the others to search on the Enterprise.
But, there's a bit of a danger of looking to deep into that whole deduction. Because there's still the glaring plot hole that any moron could distinguish a photon torpedo fired from one of the Enterprise's torpedo holes, from one fired from a Bird of Prey physically hovering below the Enterprise. It's a torpedo, it has a trajectory.
All the Enterprise needed to do was to have the Klingons look at their own footage and see that a torpedo magically appears below the Enterprise.
Right, they were just leads.
Your plot hole has holes.
a) You're assuming the Klingons bothered to keep video records, when it's not clear Starfleet even had comprehensive video archives. It always seemed more like the video was cursory and sensors were the main detailed account of the situation.
b( Somebody screwed with the Enterprises records, but nobody could have on Kronos 1 while Chang was captaining and possibly conspirators were manning stations on the bridge? ...and video footage can be doctored, I assum Lingons have something better than photoshop.
c) Even if Kronos 1 had video footage or trajectory information, that cloaked ship could have fired from a direct line in front of the Enterprise's torpedo bay to that camera, making it appear it was fired from Enterprise. We don't know how great their sensors are, anyways, maybe not having the trail for a few hundred feet from the torpedo bay wouldn't be surprising. Neither ship was on alert, their sensors may have been pretty passive at the time.
d) You're assuming Klingons think like humans and will carry out detailed investigations led by the detectives undoubtedly on board every warship.
-
Regarding a), seriously? A warp capable species doesn't have an outward facing camera on their ship that's on when facing their eternal foe?
c) They said the ship must have hovered under the Enterprise
d) photon torpedoes are like ac fireball being fired, glowing brightly on its way. Anybody with a fucking ruler could figure out the trajectory of it. Even in the obscure case that the ship was hovering in direct line of sight, it's brutally obvious whether the thing originates directly from the torpedo bay of Enterprise, or a kilometer in front of it.
It's just a plain plot hole. The writers wanted an assassination that could be pinned on the Enterprise, and this was a convenient way to do so.
-
They said it must have hovered under it... so what? It was just speculation. You're being liberal with what they were implying.
With a&d) you're assuming they have all the requisite information, but data acquisition isn't even easy when you know exactly what you need beforehand. You can say a warp capable species could plaster the outside world with cameras, but why would they? Has there even been an indication that they do? ...or that the Klingons do? Even sensors might not have tracking of it or good information on it for the beginning of it's flight, it's reasonable the data isn't all there to retrace where it started. Just because they might be warp capable doesn't mean they will conquer all limitations tied to computing. You can't assume this is a problem no matter how easy you think it is without knowing the data they have.
Regardless, it will never be a plot hole, not while we know Chang was sitting in the captain's chair of Kronos 1. Anything that could have tipped the Klingons off can easily be written off as having been covered by conspirators. For that to be uncovered there would have to be someone suspecting their own people aided the assassination.
-
You know, your argument would have rung true in the 80s where recording something came at considerable cost. Already in 2013 we record everything under the sun (and certainly keep records of things that might interest us). Fast-forward 200 years, and the Klingons don't have the camera on when they get shot on? Sure.
And what we see in the movie is supposedly what it looked like to everybody in the movie. From that kind of imagery even the Enterprise could conclusively prove to the Klingons that the torpedo didn't originate from one of their bays.
-
I would kill to see a Klingon Cannon commercial. :lol
-
You know, your argument would have rung true in the 80s where recording something came at considerable cost. Already in 2013 we record everything under the sun (and certainly keep records of things that might interest us). Fast-forward 200 years, and the Klingons don't have the camera on when they get shot on? Sure.
And what we see in the movie is supposedly what it looked like to everybody in the movie. From that kind of imagery even the Enterprise could conclusively prove to the Klingons that the torpedo didn't originate from one of their bays.
The Klingon ship was ahead, above, and slight port of the Enterprise. Definitely a peculiar angle, and not necessarily one that'd have good visual. Another thing to keep in mind are that starships rely on sensors much more than visual. That big pretty screen is more for our benefit, not the crew's. Lastly, Klingons don't actually care much about what goes on behind them. They're lightly armed and armored at the back of the ship because they don't expect to present that to their enemies. Seems plausible that their aft viewport might be half-assed, at best.
-
Rumborak, that's fine and all, but we clearly see in Star Trek they rely on sensors far more than cameras. That doesn't ring false, even hard scifi from that last few years does not do what you are asking. Cameras would, for the most part, catch nothing. It's one thing about being something that could be done and another to assume it would be deemed worth enough to include. Yes, maybe it would be easy to catch this event, but you know what needed to be caught.
It's morelikely they relied on sensor data, and even simple sensor processing can be a computationally challenging problem. It is realistic to assume they are dealing with imperfect information, nothing about advancing to warp technology suggests that leap.
-
Klingons are idiots. That's a good enough reason for me. It's also hard to imagine Klingons doing things other than fighting and eating. I don't imagine there's much honor for a Klingon in designing and installing high resolution cameras on a spaceship. :lol
-
Klingons are idiots. That's a good enough reason for me. It's also hard to imagine Klingons doing things other than fighting and eating. I don't imagine there's much honor for a Klingon in designing and installing high resolution cameras on a spaceship. :lol
Shagging?
-
I'm pretty sure in the case of the Klingons that falls under the "fighting" category!
-
A quick calculation, so it might be a little off, but let's say one of these ships wanted a hi res video of its entire near proximity. I'm going to ignore data compression, but you'll get the idea.
Camera requirements: At 1 mi from the centre of the ship you want a comprehensive 100 ppi with true color (256 x 256 x 256) at 48 fps and 1 days worth of storage before the data is dumped.
Data required: 1396610224912702 Terabytes
That's not unthinkable, but you're already starting to look at physical limits that would need storage finer than one bit per atom. Cameras just aren't cheap. Bump that up to wanting the 5 year mission on camera, 1000 mile radius, and equal quality in infrared and ultraviolet spectrums... you'd need to convert about a hundred Earths (the whole thing) into ultra efficient, perfect atom data storage.
-
Klingons are idiots. That's a good enough reason for me. It's also hard to imagine Klingons doing things other than fighting and eating. I don't imagine there's much honor for a Klingon in designing and installing high resolution cameras on a spaceship. :lol
The Klingons had a pretty good-resolution camera when they noticed the bacterial infection on their hull (the one they accused the Enterprise D to have planted on them).
I don't make a distinction here between sensors and visuals. It's the same thing, different part of the electromagnetic spectrum. A photon torpedo will show up on just about every sensor a Klingon ship has. Besides: A warrior race can't tell where a shot originated from? That's arguably the most important thing a Klingon is interested in.
A quick calculation, so it might be a little off, but let's say one of these ships wanted a hi res video of its entire near proximity. I'm going to ignore data compression, but you'll get the idea.
Camera requirements: At 1 mi from the centre of the ship you want a comprehensive 100 ppi with true color (256 x 256 x 256) at 48 fps and 1 days worth of storage before the data is dumped.
Data required: 1396610224912702 Terabytes
That's not unthinkable, but you're already starting to look at physical limits that would need storage finer than one bit per atom. Cameras just aren't cheap. Bump that up to wanting the 5 year mission on camera, 1000 mile radius, and equal quality in infrared and ultraviolet spectrums... you'd need to convert about a hundred Earths (the whole thing) into ultra efficient, perfect atom data storage.
You've heard of a thing called "rolling logs", right? You keep the most recent stuff, and overwrite it when it gets past a certain age. That's what the Facebooks, the Googles etc etc do.
Come on, guys. You make the Klingons sound as if they couldn't engineer themselves out of a handbasket. They're a warp-capable species with cloaking technology. They will know how to analyze an enemy. And they will keep sensor logs on when they're standing face-to-face with a former mortal enemy.
-
A quick calculation, so it might be a little off, but let's say one of these ships wanted a hi res video of its entire near proximity. I'm going to ignore data compression, but you'll get the idea.
Camera requirements: At 1 mi from the centre of the ship you want a comprehensive 100 ppi with true color (256 x 256 x 256) at 48 fps and 1 days worth of storage before the data is dumped.
Data required: 1396610224912702 Terabytes
That's not unthinkable, but you're already starting to look at physical limits that would need storage finer than one bit per atom. Cameras just aren't cheap. Bump that up to wanting the 5 year mission on camera, 1000 mile radius, and equal quality in infrared and ultraviolet spectrums... you'd need to convert about a hundred Earths (the whole thing) into ultra efficient, perfect atom data storage.
Read.
-
Didn't see the 1 day thing, sorry. Point still stands. The way you argue Google would never exist, because they'd try to make a copy of the internet every second so they can search over it.
Besides, you're vastly overstating the amount of data necessary. All it takes is looking at the ghetto-resolution of the movie, and you would already be able to tell the trajectory and origin of the torpedo. Believe it or not, that whole movie fits on a 1GB DVD, and the pertinent scene makes up a 1/100th of it.
-
Klingons are idiots. That's a good enough reason for me. It's also hard to imagine Klingons doing things other than fighting and eating. I don't imagine there's much honor for a Klingon in designing and installing high resolution cameras on a spaceship. :lol
The Klingons had a pretty good-resolution camera when they noticed the bacterial infection on their hull (the one they accused the Enterprise D to have planted on them).
I don't make a distinction here between sensors and visuals. It's the same thing, different part of the electromagnetic spectrum. A photon torpedo will show up on just about every sensor a Klingon ship has. Besides: A warrior race can't tell where a shot originated from? That's arguably the most important thing a Klingon is interested in.
Trek in general has been pretty poor in regards to actually having cameras. It's surprisingly rare, considering it wasn't far-fetched tech by any means.
In a TOS episode, they had a convoluted section where they tracked down a guy hidden on the ship with a microphone that could pick up everything, and had to filter out the accountable crew's heartbeats. :lol Sure, that makes much more sense than a camera in a vital part of the ship.
Did they mention the distance between the ships? It's possible the Klingon's sensors aren't as accurate as Federation ships. I can't imagine science being a priority to them. Ok, when you consider the scale of space that they're travelling through, maybe it's not believable they could get by with sensors that inaccurate. Or maybe the Klingons didn't actually check over the sensor logs that thoroughly because they didn't think they needed to. They're a dopey race of warriors. They saw it came from that general direction, so that was good enough.
Either way, I'm perfectly fine just accepting it as a plothole in the movie. :lol
-
It's a movie. The line between plot-hole and suspension of disbelief is very narrow.
-
Didn't see the 1 day thing, sorry. Point still stands. The way you argue Google would never exist, because they'd try to make a copy of the internet every second so they can search over it.
Besides, you're vastly overstating the amount of data necessary.All it takes is looking at the ghetto-resolution of the movie, and you would already be able to tell the trajectory and origin of the torpedo. Believe it or not, that whole movie fits on a 1GB DVD, and the pertinent scene makes up a 1/100th of it.
Straw man. Don't try to skew what I'm getting at or anything. You think I picked those numbers because they're what I think they should do? The specifics are irrelevant, the point is you have to draw the line somewhere. Your information will not be perfect, you can't just say they would have good enough information because you think it should be there. I'm aware they could have had the information, but you can't assume they did. You assume the plot hole instead of assuming someone that captains Kronos I couldn't help orchestrate an event that would either come across as seemingly genuine or easily modified to looked genuine to Kronos I.
Even if they caught what they needed to prove it, one of the conspirators was captaining Kronos I at the time so it reasonably wouldn't even matter unless some Klingong got it in his head there was a legitimate reason to believe the humans and did a thorough investigation before being executed.
-
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/946983_10201183820586954_16365016_n.jpg)
-
Is Tasha Yar being portrayed by a guy?
-
That's pretty cool.
-
Is Tasha Yar being portrayed by a guy?
Nah, that's Peppermint Patty. Which is a pretty dead-on character to choose for Tasha :lol
-
Wow, totally didn't recognize the character, but, yeah, dead on choice. :lol
-
That is a great choice, as is Pigpin for Worf. Whose Sally supposed to be? Pullaski?
TLRHG as Crusher is also pretty inspired.
-
Who is the black kid?
-
Who is the black kid?
His name is Franklin...
-
So if Snoopy is Data...is Woodstock Spot? :lol
Still trying to figure out who Sally is supposed to be...
-
El Barto said it above, it's got to be Pulaski.
-
El Barto said it above, it's got to be Pulaski.
Pulaski and Krusher on the same ship? Na... Ogawa maybe? Although that's a stretch.
-
...and Worf wore yellow when Yar was around? ...what about Riker's beard?
-
...and Worf wore yellow when Yar was around? ...what about Riker's beard?
YA! And what about Scarecrow's brain????
-
Woo !!
Just bid on an un-opened Director's Cut of The Motion Picture DVD.
Hope I win :)
-
I saw the director's cut of TMP before I got my own copy of the theatrical version. The director's cut is slightly more bearable than the theatrical, but not by much. :lol Shame they only redid the effects at SD though.
-
I don't know why everyone hates TMP.
It's what everyone on this board apparently wants from a Star Trek movie. Less action and more plot.
-
Not me. It was a poor movie.
-
The problem with TMP wasn't the concept, so much as the execution. It's just incredibly dull. It didn't even have much plot. It was an episode of Trek drawn out to 2 hours.
-
You also don't want to confuse your audience. It felt like the movie was really going nowhere and the payoff was poor at best.
-
The problem with TMP wasn't the concept, so much as the execution. It's just incredibly dull. It didn't even have much plot. It was an episode of Trek drawn out to 2 hours.
Which seems to be the go-to reason for not liking any star trek movie around here.
And any bit of plot you don't like is a plot-hole
" I don't like when Tolian Soran said Time Is The Fire In Which We Burn. Plot-Hole ! "
:lol
I prefer it to III . That really was just a long episode. It didn't even have great production values.
-
III is the best of the odd #'s. I always liked TSFS. I was 15 when it came out and the family went to the movies to see it. My dad handed me the keys to the car, (Standard) and told me to "take us home." I asked my dad where to go and he told me, "I don't Know?!" I almost crapped myself but i found my way home! :lol
-
The problem with TMP wasn't the concept, so much as the execution. It's just incredibly dull. It didn't even have much plot. It was an episode of Trek drawn out to 2 hours.
Which seems to be the go-to reason for not liking any star trek movie around here.
And any bit of plot you don't like is a plot-hole
" I don't like when Tolian Soran said Time Is The Fire In Which We Burn. Plot-Hole ! "
:lol
I prefer it to III . That really was just a long episode. It didn't even have great production values.
I definitely preferred III. It's not a great movie either, but it fits into the 2/3/4 story, which helps, plus it does have a lot more more going on. TMP was a slow, plodding, nothingness leading to a poor payoff, as king said. The whole movie was just padding time for that payoff, and it wasn't worth it for a two hour movie.
I know a lot of people criticize Insurrection for feeling like a drawn out episode, but I feel they at least filled it out with some good character moments, and had characters doing their own thing. TMP didn't fill the extra time with anything worthwhile but slow crappy space shots. Every character is there doing not much, and the whole movie's plot is not much. It's a failure of a movie.
-
Well so far i've never seen a Trek movie that I didn't at least like ( V and I included ).
I think i've come to the conclusion recently that it's that crew and that cast that I like more than the films.
A lot of people seem to want a new Trek tv show but I don't. I think it will be a sure fire way to kill it off again.
I enjoy having to wait three - four years for a new film. It makes it an occasion.
-
I've enjoyed most of the Trek movies, even V for the "so bad that it's good" factor. But that's not to say they're all good. At the least, TMP, TFF, and Nemesis are pretty bad. Being a Trek fan, I could still watch them though.
I cannot wait for Trek to come back to television, I just don't want JJ and crew to come anywhere near it, because they're not suited to it, and I want something much more substantial than the new movies, otherwise there's no point. Trek works infinitely better as a series than as movies, and I don't want to have to wait 4 years to get two hours of Trek that was done better 30 years ago.
CBS clearly doesn't want a new series at this point though, probably while the movies are still going. Hopefully the third movie is the last, then they can get a new series happening.
-
The problem with TMP wasn't the concept, so much as the execution. It's just incredibly dull. It didn't even have much plot. It was an episode of Trek drawn out to 2 hours.
This, that movie is incredibly boring.
-
It isn't.
-
The movie has a lot of problems, one huge one being that it was trying to be another 2001 Space Odyssey. In Kubrick's movie the slow pace was there to illustrate the ennui of space. In TMP it was totally out of place. Just take the scene where Kirk is on the shuttle with Scotty to board the Enterprise. That scene is painfully drawn out.
-
I can't remember if I mentioned this before (I may have), but my wife read a ST book that Shatner wrote where he spun the ending of TMP into the birth of the Borg. I thought that was a really fascinating angle, and she said the book was really well done. (I hear from many people that Shatner is a MUCH better writer than he is a director)
-
The movie has a lot of problems, one huge one being that it was trying to be another 2001 Space Odyssey. In Kubrick's movie the slow pace was there to illustrate the ennui of space. In TMP it was totally out of place. Just take the scene where Kirk is on the shuttle with Scotty to board the Enterprise. That scene is painfully drawn out.
What makes it even more painful is how terrible the effects are. Kirk and Scotty look like cardboard cutouts, and the keying is pretty bad. The effects aren't good enough to get away with milking every single shot. The drawn out shots showing V'ger are equally bad, just slow pans over the surface of it over and over again. And there's the wormhole shots. Torture.
I was skimming through the movie today, and the whole thing is like that. I feel sorry for the studio. They wanted Star Wars, and coming from TOS you'd expect a fun movie full of phaser fights, Kirk killing aliens with his bare hands then sleeping with their sexy alien wives, badass space battles etc. Instead they got the red headed step child of Space Odyssey. It had almost none of the appeal of TOS.
-
It's amazing that The Wrath Of Khan followed that.
It's almost the polar opposite of TMP.
As I mentioned earlier - Insurrection is the one I have most trouble watching as It seems the most cheap and I'm not in the best place
At the moment to be watching films about lovey dovey Happy Happy Joy Joy planets where you're always young.
The Nexus has a similar effect but I love Generations because the Nexus scene is so short whereas in Insurrection it's basically the whole film.
-
It isn't.
Well, I'm glad they finally found their target audience.
-
So it's ok just to go " It's boring. "
But it's not ok to say " it isn't. "
Gotcha.
-
What? It's almost universally panned for all the reasons that have been given. You are honestly the only person I've ever talked with about the film that really likes it. Hey, I'm happy for you.
-
I love TMP to death but still think it's so slow and boring that I can't watch at fully anymore.
Doesn't mean I don't looooove it
-
Nah, I like it. I saw it in the theaters and it made little sense, which combined with the slowness really made it a bummer. The director's cut actually fixed the story issues so that it worked. It was still too slow, but it was s decent story and there was character development. My biggest issue with it was that I find bald chicks creepy.
-
What? It's almost universally panned for all the reasons that have been given. You are honestly the only person I've ever talked with about the film that really likes it. Hey, I'm happy for you.
I think it's the possibly the most overlooked and under rated movie in the entire franchise. I really like it.
Another interesting note about it. One of the reasons for the dramatic shift between TMP and TWOK is because TMP was Roddenberry's vision. When it flopped, the movie studio convinced him to let other people handle it. There were several changes in TWOK that Roddenberry didn't like...the first that springs to mind is the militarization of Starfleet...which Roddenberry had tried to downplay in the series, and sweep under the rug as often as possible. (at least, in his words that I recall)
-
i always knew that Roddenberry's role was diminished in TWOK.
It's just odd that they managed to choose a writer and director who made all the best Trek movies form the original crew.
All the ones in between vary from poor to decent.
It' still too early to say where Into Darkness would sit in my ranking but I think My top 5 would be :
1.The Wrath Of Kahn
2.Star Trek
3.The Undiscovered Country
4.The Voyage Home
5.Generations
If I rank them as Original Crew : Khan, Country, Voyage, Spock, Motion Picture, Frontier.
TNG Crew : Generations, First Contact,Nemesis, Insurrection.
Alternate Timeline : Star Trek, Into Darkness.
-
I watched it yesterday, and thought it was decent for a fan film.
They captured the sets and lighting and uniforms almost perfectly. Spock and Bones are poorly cast and acted, and were pretty useless, but Chris Doohan really fits well as Scotty for obvious reason, despite the not so good accent. The rest were decent enough for a fan film.
It was silly to include holodecks and a ship councilor, as those are TNG era trademarks, and don't fit with TOS.
And the story was silly optimistic fantasy rather than what I'd consider true scifi, but that fits with TOS.
Overall it's probably the best Trek fan film I've seen, or at least on par with New Voyages.
Cool nugget I found out : The voice of the Enterprise is Marina Sirtis - keeping it in the family very nearly !
:)
-
Just watching the DS9 pilot.
Ben and Jennifer ( lol ) Sisko cannot act to save them selves.
:lol
Also - how big are Quadrants ? If the wormhole goes to the Gamma Quadrant - why didn't USS Voyager just use that ?
Did they not know about it at the time ?
-
Would you bank a trip based on a wormhole?
I see no problem with Brooks acting in the pilot, he just draws divisive opinions.
-
I don't get the suggestion. What would they do with the Gamma Quadrant wormhole? It's as far away as the place they're trying to get to.
-
Isn't starfleet in the Alpha Quad ?
Voyager is stuck in Delta Quad.
I'm assuming that Gamme Quad is one Quad away from Delta. So theoretically 25% of your journey.
-
Well, they're all quarters of a circle (the Milky Way), so they'd only marginally gain anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galactic_Quadrant_Star_Trek.png
-
I always thought of them as being in a line . .
Like A - B - C - D
And Voyager has to get from D - A hence why it takes so long.
-
Quadrants are the +'s/-'s of the Cartesian Plane, Delta is next to Alpha. What's silly, though, is that in Trek most of the so called Alpha Quadrant powers are primarily in the Beta Quadrant. ...including the Federation. Delta and Gamma are roughly the same distance away, it is plausible the wormhole is closer to Voyager. Quadrants are too big to be good judges of distance, though. Alpha and Beta border, but there are points in the two which are on complete opposite ends of the galaxy.
-
Also - how big are Quadrants ? If the wormhole goes to the Gamma Quadrant - why didn't USS Voyager just use that ?
Did they not know about it at the time ?
I made the point about using the wormhole a while back. Depending on which map you look at, it would either cut the trip in half, or make no difference at all. Since the direct route would have involved going around the galactic core, the wormhole probably would have been the better option, though by how much is questionable. They knew the wormhole was there because they started their mission at DS9. The downside is that they would have flown right into a war with the Dominion, but they had no way of knowing that. Other considerations are that the direct route would have had them traveling all the way across Romulan space, and there's never any telling how that'll go over, and also that most of the exploration would have been going on around the wormhole, rather than the Romulan's back yard, so they'd probably come across other federation amigos quicker by heading to the Gamma quadrant. The down side is that it'd just be damned counter-intuitive. They'd be heading away from Earth the whole time.
(https://www.freewebs.com/captaingestl/milkyway.gif)
-
I watched it yesterday, and thought it was decent for a fan film.
They captured the sets and lighting and uniforms almost perfectly. Spock and Bones are poorly cast and acted, and were pretty useless, but Chris Doohan really fits well as Scotty for obvious reason, despite the not so good accent. The rest were decent enough for a fan film.
It was silly to include holodecks and a ship councilor, as those are TNG era trademarks, and don't fit with TOS.
And the story was silly optimistic fantasy rather than what I'd consider true scifi, but that fits with TOS.
Overall it's probably the best Trek fan film I've seen, or at least on par with New Voyages.
Cool nugget I found out : The voice of the Enterprise is Marina Sirtis - keeping it in the family very nearly !
:)
I spotted her voice right away, although I couldn't find anything online to confirm it at the time. She really can't hide that distinctive accent!
I thought that was a neat nugget, especially as she played the Trek daughter of Lwaxanna, played by Majel Barret, who voiced the original Enterprise computer. Surely not a coincidence.
-
Hence keeping it in the family very nearly.
;D
I couldn't think of a better person to do it.
-
Thought you might have simply meant keeping it within the general Trek family. It's quite a big family! :D
I think she did a good job too, and I like that she hasn't got a general US accent. Keeps it a bit less American focused, something that Trek hasn't always succeeded at.
-
Her Troi accent accent must have affected her actual voice because when TNG first started - her real voice was a lot more London.
-
It looks like she permanently moved to the US right as TNG started, so living in another country would have affected her accent over time.
-
I just switched on TV ib my hotel room, and SyFy is showing " Mega Shark vs. Crocosauras". I feel bad for Robert Picardo for being in this.
-
Picardo has always been a character actor. He's great, but he's gotta work, too. I can't imagine that those SyFy movies pay a lot, but a gig's a gig.
-
The dude's got a huge resume. I doubt he's hurting for cash. He seems to have a pretty good sense of humor about his role in life, and probably thought it'd be fun.
-
Indeed - maybe he did it from the same reason Richard Dreyfuss did Piranha 3D.
He saw it as a silly movie and thought it'd be fun to be part of it.
It's a shame that Roy Scheider and Robert Shaw are no longer with us. It would be amazing to see them in a movie as the three leads nowadays.
-
The dude's got a huge resume. I doubt he's hurting for cash. He seems to have a pretty good sense of humor about his role in life, and probably thought it'd be fun.
That's what I mean. It's not that he needs the money, but he's an actor, and it was a role. So it's some cheesey made-for-cable movie. Whatever, a gig's a gig, so he did it.
-
Watching the TNG episode with the Binars right now. Really like that episode, great story and great species.
Only thing that bugs me a bit every time I see the scene: There's always two binars that stick together. But they're called "10" and "01". Wtf? It's two values, so they only need one bit!
EDIT: Just read that supposedly the other two Binars were called 00 and 11. I don't recall them saying that though in the episode.
-
It's also pretty convenient that the four they sent to the Enterprise were 1-4. I suspect the writers just didn't want to dick with typing out "01101001 says to 01101010" in their scripts.
Watched Unification last night. Most of the two part TNG episodes were really weak. Often times the first part is great and the second part awful (usually the case with season finales/premiers). Unification was actually quite good, though. The Spock, Piccard, Sarek subplot was good, as was the Romulan aspect. The Klingon's disdain for Piccard and Data, as well as Piccard's attempt to play it cool with them was quite comical.
The downside was something TNG often did. There's no reason to reuse characters just for the sake of familiarity. They make it seem as if Tomalak and Sela are the only people running the Romulan military. It just takes on a kind of gimmicky quality. Sela was a fine idea for a character the first time out. No need to bring her back. Lursa and Bator were another example. I just don't think ST benefits from having recurring nemeses.
-
DS9 and Wrath of Khan sure were hurt by recurring nemeses.
-
Hm given your examples, I think I'd agree. Actually, I generally prefer Trek when it's not dealing with such a simple idea of nemeses at all. It feels like something I'd expect from bad Trek movies.
I like Trek when it's dealing with grey areas of believable characters with decent motivation for what they do, or making a social statement, etc, all of the stuff people expect from good Trek. I like don't bad guys that are played as simple one-dimensional bad guys. While even the Borg wore out from being overused, I don't mind them because they're not one specific bad guy (well, they weren't) with a vendetta or generic lust for power.
DS9 and Wrath of Khan sure were hurt by recurring nemeses.
Khan was only reused one, 15 years later (I'm not counting that new thing). And the episode set up a great payoff in the movie.
DS9 did it right, but they gave the characters and races enough depth to pull it off.
-
My point was that it has nothing to do with the Star Trek franchise as to whether or not recurring nemeses are bad, it works or not based on how it is done and in what scenario they use them. It made sense in DS9. Wrath of Khan worked better because of the familiarity with their relationship. Q worked very well in TNG.
Just because it doesn't work in certain ways doesn't mean it doesn't work at all.
-
Point taken.
As a generalization, I do however prefer the episodes that don't have that kind of thing. It worked in DS9 because it was serialized, and the show was done well in general, but in the rest of Trek, it usually didn't work anywhere near as effectively.
-
Unlike most people - I enjoyed all the Q episodes.
Better than a trade dispute or a transporter or holodeck malfunction again !
With Q - anything can happen.
-
With Q anything can happen, but it doesn't matter anyway because he's a magical "do whatever and put it right at the end of the episode". Then he went and infected DS9 and Voyager too. John DeLancie is great, but he could only make up for so much.
Give me a transporter/holodeck malfunction any day. And if you can combine transporter malfunction with time travel too? BONUS!
-
Ugh. Q was fun though. Holodeck malfunctions were such boring episodes.
Oh it's a 1940's bar or a train or a western village.
Never some fucked up dimension with weird physics where nothing makes sense.
And you knew everything would be ok at the end of EVERY episode. Whether it was holodeck or Q.
It was just more fun getting there with Q not some holo-moriarty.
-
He was overused, that's for sure. I was actually watching the episode yesterday where he gives Riker Q powers. The episode overall is somewhat clunky (especially the Yar crying scene, ugh), but that was Q at his best. I love the "seized my vessel, seized my vessel" mocking, and him yelling "Blasphemy! You're lucky I don't cast you out, or smite you."
Whereas in VOY he always felt unnecessarily plugged into.
-
Q wasn't fun. It was just "oh, another Q episode." The whole idea of an omnipotent magical being was stupid and un-scifi, and every story with him in it was lame. Oh look, we're in Q's dimension, but because we can't comprehend its greatness, it looks like a boring civil war re-enactment instead! And it had the typical "power is bad" crap.
I can't think of a single Q episode I'd call "good". Holodeck/transporter malfunctions were certainly hit and miss (with some awful misses), but there were plenty of good episodes there too.
-
He was overused, that's for sure.
I was waiting for this. I'm watching TNG on Net Flix and he's in like 1 or 2 episodes per season.
That's about 22 or 23 episodes per season that he's not in.
If i start an episode and it's a holodeck one - I usually skip it :lol
-
He was in 12 episodes, which was about 12 episodes too many for such a poorly thought out character. Until now, I don't think I've known anyone to like Q episodes.
-
I used to LOVE the Qpisodes when I was younger... now they are just... filler
-
Q wasn't fun. It was just "oh, another Q episode." The whole idea of an omnipotent magical being was stupid and un-scifi, and every story with him in it was lame. Oh look, we're in Q's dimension, but because we can't comprehend its greatness, it looks like a boring civil war re-enactment instead! And it had the typical "power is bad" crap.
I can't think of a single Q episode I'd call "good". Holodeck/transporter malfunctions were certainly hit and miss (with some awful misses), but there were plenty of good episodes there too.
I think you're looking at Q the wrong way. His omnipotence, frankly, was just the plot justification for his character, which was his truly defining feature. TNG had a tendency to take themselves way too seriously at times, and Q was the one who would make them aware of it.
I don't know how known this character is in the English-speaking world, but Q was essentially Till Eulenspiegel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Eulenspiegel). A court jester who would make people face their own shortcomings, yet immune from the consequences of his pranks.
EDIT: And once they started deviating from that core premise (e.g. in VOY) he had jumped the shark. Nobody gave a rat's ass about his bratty son.
-
He was in 12 episodes, which was about 12 episodes too many for such a poorly thought out character. Until now, I don't think I've known anyone to like Q episodes.
If it weren't for the internet I don't think I'd know any TNG fan that didn't like Q episodes. ...in TNG, anyways.
-
I like Q... :|
-
I like Q... :|
-
I certainly like Q. Well, TNG Q.
-
Agreed. On other ST shows he was just a nuisance.
At least on TNG he was trying to prove a point to Picard.
But that's the writers for you.
-
That's the thing, exactly. Q was the personal antithesis to Picard, at least in the later TNG episodes he appeared in.
One word: Tapestry.
One of TNG's greatest episodes. Seeing Picard struggling to veer his dull life around after he had avoided every danger hitherto, was just plain brilliant. And Q was instrumental in that episode.
-
Q liked Picard and even though he had a strange way of going about it - he just wanted to help him realise things about himself.
-
I thought Q was a great character, at least early on when he could be a real dick.
-
I thought Q was a great character, at least early on when he could be a real dick.
if I was Picard, i'd jump at the chance to explore the unknown with Q. You knew you would be totally safe and it would drive your curiosity into overload knowing you could go anywhere at any point in time.
Also - If Q turned up one day and said he wanted to apologise for his earlier behaviour and wanted to make it up to me - i'd have asked him to make the Enterprise invulnerable. :lol Not offensively - but defensively at least - just give the ship shields that can withstand anything.
-
I also have to say, I usually hate the episodes where Star Trek simply transports the main characters into some historical setting. But in the case of Q and the "Merry Men" with Vash, it was totally awesome. Worf's destruction of Geordi's lute is priceless :lol
-
I also have to say, I usually hate the episodes where Star Trek simply transports the main characters into some historical setting. But in the case of Q and the "Merry Men" with Vash, it was totally awesome. Worf's destruction of Geordi's lute is priceless :lol
That's the episode I just watched. Picard must know by now that Q wouldn't let them die and that the best way to get it over with is just to get on with it.
-
I also have to say, I usually hate the episodes where Star Trek simply transports the main characters into some historical setting. But in the case of Q and the "Merry Men" with Vash, it was totally awesome. Worf's destruction of Geordi's lute is priceless :lol
And a direct shout-out to Animal House, which cracked me up. I was definitely not expecting it.
-
Care to elaborate ? I've not seen Animal House.
-
https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Qpid_(episode)#Background_Information
Greatest website around for Star Trek fans. It's a detailed, interesting companion to read after every episode you watch. Avoid if you aren't well versed in Star Trek, though, it does end up containing future spoilers sometimes.
Also: https://youtu.be/SOkoIObQQrU
-
Care to elaborate ? I've not seen Animal House.
Watch Animal House. It's a fantastic movie. Great story and great characters. Several of them were heroes of mine growing up. Also, It's one of the very finest scores from arguably the greatest cinema composer ever. As with much of his work, Bernstein's music is every bit as much of the movie as any of the actors. Probably the movie's best (and funniest) quality.
-
Besides, Major league Yabos. That is all.
-
Care to elaborate ? I've not seen Animal House.
I was going to find both scenes, so you could compare them, but someone already did it and saved me the trouble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1xqI_4btnc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1xqI_4btnc)
-
I recently watched that episode - its hilarious
-
I certainly like Q. Well, TNG Q.
I've seen his DS9/VOY episodes a lot more recently, and every single one of them is shit, so unfortunately that's my lasting impression of Q, at least until the next time I watch through TNG.
Obviously his last appearance in TNG was pretty damn good. Looking through the list of his TNG episodes, I'd call half of them good, and the rest pretty bad. All of his other appearances are awful too.
I just hate the concept of the character in general though. Omnipotence and power is always handled in such a heavy handed and narrow minded way in TV shows and movies. When you consider the scope of time and space a being like Q covers, his appearances in Trek just make little sense to me.
-
Just Watched "Frame Of Mind" again. One of the best TNG episodes, and Frakes did a great job in my opinion.
Those are the kind of episodes I really like - where everything is messed up and you don't know what's going on til the final few mins.
I wish there were more like that.
Also - it would have been cool if *somehow* it made you wonder if Riker really was imagining it - but it's Star Trek so you know he's going to be OK at the end...But would have been cool to explore that premise.
-
I certainly like Q. Well, TNG Q.
I've seen his DS9/VOY episodes a lot more recently, and every single one of them is shit, so unfortunately that's my lasting impression of Q, at least until the next time I watch through TNG.
Obviously his last appearance in TNG was pretty damn good. Looking through the list of his TNG episodes, I'd call half of them good, and the rest pretty bad. All of his other appearances are awful too.
I just hate the concept of the character in general though. Omnipotence and power is always handled in such a heavy handed and narrow minded way in TV shows and movies. When you consider the scope of time and space a being like Q covers, his appearances in Trek just make little sense to me.
Well, that's true of TNG episodes in general. :)
Looking at the list of Q episodes, I'd call only two of them less than good, "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Hide and Q." Farpoint, well, it's problems are well documented and while I wouldn't blame the Q character for it being bad, he certainly didn't do much to redeem it. Also, for a race of omnipotent beings, they're pretty damn clueless about some basic things. "Hide and Q" is a typical first season episode and, as such, it sucks.
The rest are mostly pretty good. "True Q" is kinda bland, but it's largely inoffensive when compared to other truly bad TNG episodes. I'd say Q episodes have a pretty good batting average, much better than DS9's Ferengi or alternate universe episodes at least.
-
Ah yes, I arrived at arguably one of the worst TNG episodes: Skin of Evil, with the blob that kills Tasha.
-
That's how I picture blob here. With that terrible voice.
-
That's how I picture blob here. With that terrible voice.
Explaining to everyone why they didn't like a particular episode :lol
" OH YOU THOUGHT FRAME OF MIND WAS A DECENT EPISODE. I FOUND FRAKES ACTING OVER THE TOP AND THE SCRIPT WAS UNBELIEVABLE EVEN THOUGH ITS THREE HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW AND ITS FICTON. KNEEL BEFORE BLOB OR I WILL THROW ANOTHER OF YOU ON THE BARBIE !!!
BWA HA HA HA HA HA !!! (https://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll11/imjscn/Skype%20Animated/bth_emoticon-0130-devil.gif)"
-
Ah yes, I arrived at arguably one of the worst TNG episodes: Skin of Evil, with the blob that kills Tasha.
That's one of my favourite episodes for no other reason than the fact they killed Yar. And I'm glad she got the most lame death ever. Hated her character with a passion.
That's how I picture blob here. With that terrible voice.
:blob: No comment.
-
That's one of my favourite episodes for no other reason than the fact they killed Yar. And I'm glad she got the most lame death ever. Hated her character with a passion.
THIS
-
That's one of my favourite episodes for no other reason than the fact they killed Yar. And I'm glad she got the most lame death ever. Hated her character with a passion.
THIS
:hifive:
-
That's one of my favourite episodes for no other reason than the fact they killed Yar. And I'm glad she got the most lame death ever. Hated her character with a passion.
THIS
:hifive:
What? You didn't enjoy being sermonized to about how 'Drugs are bad m'kay'? ;D
-
That's one of my favourite episodes for no other reason than the fact they killed Yar. And I'm glad she got the most lame death ever. Hated her character with a passion.
THIS
:hifive:
What? You didn't enjoy being sermonized to about how 'Drugs are bad m'kay'? ;D
The only thing that mattered in that episode is that she was G O N E
:D
-
I dunno why the writers didn't make Worf - a Klingon warrior - the security officer from the outset.
-
I dunno why the writers didn't make Worf - a Klingon warrior - the security officer from the outset.
Because she was more qualified? idk
-
b...but they wrote that in ! They should have gone " We've got a klingon here - let's make him the ship's butler or something and this whiny scrawny girl the head of security " :lol
-
If she wasn't the head of security then maybe it would have been Worf dying instead of Tasha Yar... :sadpanda:
-
No because Denise Crosby wanted out of the show :P
-
Ah yes, I arrived at arguably one of the worst TNG episodes: Skin of Evil, with the blob that kills Tasha.
That's one of my favourite episodes for no other reason than the fact they killed Yar. And I'm glad she got the most lame death ever. Hated her character with a passion.
They should have written it so that she just spontaneously dropped dead of an aneurism while standing at her station. "Hailing frequencies op--oh, I feel a little--THUD!"
And yeah, her DARE lecture might have been the all time low in a show full of low moments. I've seen Afterschool Specials that were better executed than that.
edit: Best death in Star Trek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3JUmWmMFaT4#t=17s) This should have been Tasha Yar.
-
I dunno why the writers didn't make Worf - a Klingon warrior - the security officer from the outset.
Because she was more qualified? idk
More like it was the late '80s and they were trying to be new age and progressive, with their ship's councilor, and short haired female as the security officer, and a kid flying the ship.
Ah yes, I arrived at arguably one of the worst TNG episodes: Skin of Evil, with the blob that kills Tasha.
That's one of my favourite episodes for no other reason than the fact they killed Yar. And I'm glad she got the most lame death ever. Hated her character with a passion.
They should have written it so that she just spontaneously dropped dead of an aneurism while standing at her station. "Hailing frequencies op--oh, I feel a little--THUD!"
And yeah, her DARE lecture might have been the all time low in a show full of low moments. I've seen Afterschool Specials that were better executed than that.
edit: Best death in Star Trek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3JUmWmMFaT4#t=17s) This should have been Tasha Yar.
:lol A classic, although I put in my vote for terminal diarrhea, or an allergic reaction to a space peanut and her throat closed off and nobody bothered to help her.
-
I watched that episode tonight. Something akin to that for Trek 3 would be good.
A black hole where all the physics are messed up.
Not just generic bad guy VS Federation for the 5th time in a row.
-
Sitting in theater waiting for the new movie. Finally
-
Been watching a lot of TNG on NetFlix recently.
And i've decided that Jon Frakes is the second best regular actor on the show after Patrick Stewart.
He's really good IMO.
-
Here's another actor connection I never realized until now: Kehlyr (Worf's love interest is the same woman as the woman in the DS9 genetically engineered trio.
-
The trio was a quad, and they weren't played by the same actress according to Alpha.
-
Don't know which trio (or quad) you're referring to, but it doesn't appear she was ever in DS9. All the other series, though. Never noticed she was the female Q, but in retrospect it seems pretty obvious.
-
There were four genetically engineered patients Bashir helped over two episodes. ...a nut, a ghost, a child, and a stalker. He was referring to the stalker, I think.
-
Oh, those guys. The first one was a pretty cool episode. Not sure why you call the old one a ghost, though. The nut always made me think of Gomez Adams.
-
Old one was the child.
-
Ah, that makes more sense.
Just noticed that episode was directed by Potsie Weber. Knew he was a director, but forgot he'd worked on ST.
-
The trio was a quad, and they weren't played by the same actress according to Alpha.
Crap, you're right. I saw this picture on Memory Alpha
(https://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070409191556/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/5/5a/Female_Q.jpg/153px-Female_Q.jpg)
and thought it was the genetically engineered woman. But it's actually a female Q!
-
And a particularly strange picture of her, at that. She looks gravely concerned in that picture, when she was actually 10x more flippant than regular Q. Awful episode, though. I thought the concept of Q Jr. and Aunt Kathy was great, but it was really all terribly executed.
-
I loves how sarcastic she was. It reminded me of a character from The Pretender called Miss Parker. Sassy and sexy.
-
I just came across a Supreme Court case in my casebook entitled Khan v. Singh. I guess they're pitting brother against brother!
-
I loves how sarcastic she was. It reminded me of a character from The Pretender called Miss Parker. Sassy and sexy.
Loved that character!
-
I loves how sarcastic she was. It reminded me of a character from The Pretender called Miss Parker. Sassy and sexy.
Loved that character!
Miss Parker kicked all sorts of ass. Even in a pantsuit.
-
SOMEONE HALP !!!!
Watching random eps of TNG on Netflix and wanna find an episode where a race of not particularly bright aliens kidnap Geordi and make him improve their ship in order to take on Enterprise. However Geordi talks in code to Enterprise and manages to make it appear as though the Bussard collectors overpowered the ship.
Any ideas ?
Thanks...
-
Ha ha, I was just thinking about that one the other day. Worf tells him "You will die without honor" and Geordi is just like "Well, I can live with that because I have new friends now and we're stronger than you". It was a fun episode, with some depth to it because those guys really were pretty ruthless, and not bright enough to scare easily.
But I have no idea what the title of the episode is. Sorry.
-
After typing keywords into google - I have found out that it is Samaritan's Snare.
If you want to watch it with me :p
-
No Netflix. Maybe someday.
-
"The universe is a spheroid region 705m in diameter".
Actually not a bad episode, especially when you see it the first time.
-
I'm watching an episode of The Golden Girls, and playing a shifty doctor is none other than THE doctor, Robert Picardo! I hardly recognized him with hair, but I recognized his voice and delivery instantly.
-
"The universe is a spheroid region 705m in diameter".
Actually not a bad episode, especially when you see it the first time.
"Remember Me" I liked that one.
-
"The universe is a spheroid region 705m in diameter".
Actually not a bad episode, especially when you see it the first time.
"Remember Me" I liked that one.
The premise was good, and for the most part it worked, but then Wesley's boyfriend, that goofy-ass traveler guy, shows up and pretty much blows it out of the water. "Your mom is alive as long as she believes she is!" ::)
Didn't much care for the Samaritan Snare. I was kind of torn on the antagonists. On one hand, they were unbelievably stupid and worthless. On the other hand, they did repeatedly stun Geordi, which makes them alright in my book.
-
Star Trek Into Darkness is Wesley Crusher's favourite film
https://wilwheaton.net/2013/06/my-review-of-star-trek-into-darkness/
-
Star Trek Into Darkness is Wesley Crusher's favourite film
https://wilwheaton.net/2013/06/my-review-of-star-trek-into-darkness/
He's obviously smart and knows what he's talking about, but the only thing I agree with him on is the embarassingly bad, gratuitous underwear scene.
-
I agree with him about the new and improved theater experience. We've got a couple of those fancy-ass theaters here in Dallas and it's the only way to go. Now if they'd just do away with all of the commercials I might actually go to see more movies. Alas, I find sitting through 20 minutes worth of previews ruins the overall experience.
-
Why not show up late?
-
Star Trek Into Darkness is Wesley Crusher's favourite film
https://wilwheaton.net/2013/06/my-review-of-star-trek-into-darkness/ (https://wilwheaton.net/2013/06/my-review-of-star-trek-into-darkness/)
He's obviously smart and knows what he's talking about, but the only thing I agree with him on is the embarassingly bad, gratuitous underwear scene.
I do think that scene was meant to be a character-based moment: To show how much of a horndog Kirk is, but, more importantly, to set up the attraction between the 2 characters, that in the original continuity led to them having a son together. I just don't think it succeeded in it's intent.
-
Why not show up late?
Difficult to time.
-
And difficult to still get a good seat.
-
Star Trek Into Darkness is Wesley Crusher's favourite film
https://wilwheaton.net/2013/06/my-review-of-star-trek-into-darkness/
He's obviously smart and knows what he's talking about, but the only thing I agree with him on is the embarassingly bad, gratuitous underwear scene.
The theme of family and revenge is there from the very beginning.
Kirk wants revenge for Khan killing Pike and Khan wants revenge on Marcus for holding his crew hostage and forcing him to design weapons.
The film is basically all about - is revenge right - even if it's for the right reasons ?
I'd say there were slight echoes of a post September 11 world in there. Spielberg's War Of the Worlds is a lot more explicit.
-
And difficult to still get a good seat.
Reserved seating at the theater I go to. You buy early in the day and you can pick a seat on the center aisle, and first row behind the middle walkway for lots of sprawling space.
-
The cinema in town where I live has rows as normal and then a huge gap where you walk in and up the aisle kinda like this :
L L L L L L R R R R R R R
L L L L L L R R R R R R R
L L L L L L R R R R R R R
L L L L L L R R R R R R R
L L L L L L R R R R R R R < I usually sit in this row. Tons of Legroom ;D
L L L L L L R R R R R R R
L L L L L L R R R R R R R
-----------------------------------
- This Is The Screen -
-
I went to a reserved-seat theater in New Orleans, that was very neat. They even had a waitress go around for drinks.
Sadly those theaters don't exist in Boston :(
-
I've never even heard of a reserved-seat "regular" cinema. Not to get all semantic on you, but in this case, calling it a "movie theater" seems wrong, even though it's a common enough colloquialism for cinema. But you always see plays in a theater, concerts in an auditorium, and both of those have reserved seating. Movie theaters are general admission, I've always thought.
-
Most cinemas in the UK have reserved seats. Very rare you just turn up and sit wherever.
-
Most down here are still GA. We just have a couple of trendy locales catering to a more affluent set. On the rare occasion that I want to go to a move (about once every 5 years on average), it's worth it to me to spend an extra $3 to avoid Wil Wheaton's riff-raff. I will say that the drink service is annoying. However, since there's only about 30 seats in each theater, there's not enough of it to make a difference.
-
Most cinemas in the UK have reserved seats. Very rare you just turn up and sit wherever.
Wow, that's something you guys have that we probably had at one point, but abandoned. Over here, reserved seating would just be something to slow down the system, the "system" of course meaning moving as many people through in a short a time as possible, so as to maximize profits. That's the American Way.
-
Most down here are still GA. We just have a couple of trendy locales catering to a more affluent set. On the rare occasion that I want to go to a move (about once every 5 years on average), it's worth it to me to spend an extra $3 to avoid Wil Wheaton's riff-raff. I will say that the drink service is annoying. However, since there's only about 30 seats in each theater, there's not enough of it to make a difference.
I guess that's one of the benefits of 3D - the ticket price is so high that the people that pay that much genuinely want to see the movie and aren't just having a day out.
-
Further demonstrating a point I made earlier about how surprisingly easy it is to boost a shuttlecraft, just watched an episode where Crusher not only manages to take off in one undetected, but lock out the Enterprise's ability to control it and elude Worf's ineffective ass. It really is laughable when it happens. If I ever decide to watch all the series again, I'll have to remember to make a list of every time it happens.
I wonder who the goofiest character to ever pull it off was. Crusher has to rate up there, but it wouldn't surprise me if Hoshi or O'Brien's wife stole one or two.
-
I watched an episode of DS9 recently where some random kid from the Gamma Quadrant managed to steal a shuttlecraft. It's the episode where a race of people with awful skin from the GQ come through and claim that Bajor is their mythical place of origin.
-
Well, runabouts aren't shuttlecraft, but do you mean at the end of the episode when he's killed by the Bajorans? I'm pretty sure that's not a runabout. He stole one his own people's ships, presumably one he had fairly free access to, already.
-
That stupid emo friend of Wesley who doesn't get into Starfleet steals one too at some point.
-
I saw "Into Darkness" but thought it was only OK. Very actionny, I have no issue with that, but it would have benifitted being just a tad bit more cerebral.
-
That epiosde where Wes performs the illegal Starburst manoeuvre has Tom Paris in as someone else.
They don't even try to make him look different in Voyager.
Bit weird.
-
Nick Locarno (the original TNG character) was supposed to be in Voyager, but there was an issue and they had to change his name, so he became Tom Paris. Same actor, basically the same character.
I believe the problem (discussed somewhere here in the preceding 100 pages) was that the guys who wrote the TNG episode "owned" the character of Nick Locarno, so Paramount would have to slide them some cash for every episode of Voyager that he appears in, which is all of them, since he was to be main cast. Paramount danced around that by changing his name. It would have been a nice way to link the two series, but oh well.
Similarly, Kira on Deep Space 9 was originally supposed to be Ro from TNG, which also would have been a nice link.
-
Well, the character was changed after Forbes declined to do the show. Kira wasn't Ro, v. 2.
-
I believe the problem (discussed somewhere here in the preceding 100 pages) was that the guys who wrote the TNG episode "owned" the character of Nick Locarno, so Paramount would have to slide them some cash for every episode of Voyager that he appears in, which is all of them, since he was to be main cast. Paramount danced around that by changing his name. It would have been a nice way to link the two series, but oh well.
Yup. Carrying on the Roddenberry legacy by ripping off those who contribute.
Before a shitstorm develops, I'll say that I'm cool with changing Locarno to Paris for those reasons. Still, this sort of thing went on quite a bit.
-
Well, runabouts aren't shuttlecraft, but do you mean at the end of the episode when he's killed by the Bajorans? I'm pretty sure that's not a runabout. He stole one his own people's ships, presumably one he had fairly free access to, already.
Close enough! It's a Starfleet ship being taken from right under their noses by a nobody. :lol
-
Well, runabouts aren't shuttlecraft, but do you mean at the end of the episode when he's killed by the Bajorans? I'm pretty sure that's not a runabout. He stole one his own people's ships, presumably one he had fairly free access to, already.
Close enough! It's a Starfleet ship being taken from right under their noses by a nobody. :lol
I think you only read the first 4 or 5 words I wrote. :lol Unless it's another scene I can't remember, he didn't steal a Starfleet vessel of any kind.
--------
Which ones were stolen on DS9, anyways? Bashir changeling and Tom Riker with the Defiant are the only two I can think of where someone got away with it. Kira let her terrorist friend "steal" one. Odo caught Garak stealing one and another Gamma-guy stealing one.
Thought of another one, cloned O'Brien stole one. DS9 sure liked mimics stealing their ships.
-
Well, runabouts aren't shuttlecraft, but do you mean at the end of the episode when he's killed by the Bajorans? I'm pretty sure that's not a runabout. He stole one his own people's ships, presumably one he had fairly free access to, already.
Close enough! It's a Starfleet ship being taken from right under their noses by a nobody. :lol
I think you only read the first 4 or 5 words I wrote. :lol Unless it's another scene I can't remember, he didn't steal a Starfleet vessel of any kind.
Oh, right (just woke up, skimmed it badly). I saw the episode again only recently and assumed it was Starfleet. I guess it's sometimes hard to tell when they skimp out and only show it as bleeps on the radar screen. :lol My bad?
-
Hah, Data just delivered one of his best lines: "I presume your handprint opens this door whether you are conscious or not?"
:lol
-
Is that from The Most Toys ?
-
Is that from The Most Toys ?
No, but that was my first guess, as well. They both aired pretty close together.
It was when the time traveler showed up claiming to be a historian from the future, but was from the past looking to steal some gadgetry.
-
For all the Voyager fans:
https://www.rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/now-voyager-the-least-beloved-star-trek-offered-some-of-the-franchises-strongest-feminist-messages
-
Well, I certainly wouldn't consider it less beloved than Enterprise. While plenty of people hate it, plenty of people also thought it was very good. Nobody liked Enterprise.
As for why people hate it, I'm not sure. The fact that those same people tend to adore TNG, which was incredibly bland, does baffle me. I will say that I thought it was pretty bad, originally. It wasn't until I went back and rewatched it that I decided it was much better than originally thought.
-
Interesting. Obviously, Voyager is the one and only series with a female captain, but I guess I'd never really thought about the fact that all the strong characters and pretty much all the interesting ones were female. 7 of 9 was basically brought on to be eye candy, but her "deassimilation" or whatever you call it led to some great storylines and added some unique to her character. Torres, as "the half-alien whose background must be explored" was pretty good, too.
The only exception IMO was The Doctor, who had his own interesting and unique journey. Let's face it: Chakotay, Paris, and Kim were all wimp losers. Neelix was just annoying. Tuvok was a great character, and I thought Tim Russ' portrayal was excellent, but he never did anything. The most interesting male character was Ensign Suter, who gets a Purple Heart for his actions during the Year of Hell, but it has to be posthumous because you don't waste an awesome actor like Brad Dourif on episodic TV.
-
Suder was dead during the Year of Hell. Don't know if the period where the Kazon controlled Voyager has a name.
-
Is that from The Most Toys ?
No, but that was my first guess, as well. They both aired pretty close together.
It was when the time traveler showed up claiming to be a historian from the future, but was from the past looking to steal some gadgetry.
Cool - i might watch that one tonight then :) x
-
Suder was dead during the Year of Hell. Don't know if the period where the Kazon controlled Voyager has a name.
I must be confusing Year of Hell with some other two-part arc. I remember that it was a two-part story.
-
Is that from The Most Toys ?
No, but that was my first guess, as well. They both aired pretty close together.
It was when the time traveler showed up claiming to be a historian from the future, but was from the past looking to steal some gadgetry.
Also Picard mentions Khan Singh. As far as I know - the only time he is mentioned.
-
Suder's heroism and death were in Basics parts 1 and 2. The last episode featuring the Kazon, where they steal Voyager and strand the crew on some planet full of cavemen. Paris, Suder and the Doctor retake Voyager with the help of a shipful of Neelixes.
The other thing that made me laugh from the Maxx Headroom episode was when he asked for Picard to move before transporting over.
-
I remember when I used to get Matt Frewer and Dwight Schultz confused.
They're quite similar in some ways.
Also - the episode where Picard is summoned to a secret rendezvous where he is warned of strange behaviour in Starfleet HQ.
And then he turns up and they sit down to eat worms.
The scene where they phaser that guy to death and he basically disintegrates was *always* cut on TV.
First time i've ever seen it in all it's gory glory. It's quite graphic for a 6pm watershed ! :P
-
Conspiracy. Yeah, that was a sweet episode. When it first aired, it wasn't cut, and I remember thinking (1) pretty decent special effects for TV, and (2) wow, that was pretty gross!
-
Well, I certainly wouldn't consider it less beloved than Enterprise. While plenty of people hate it, plenty of people also thought it was very good. Nobody liked Enterprise.
Agreed. Enterprise is definitely the least liked, even by a majority of Trekkies. Voyager would be next behind that, but it's still a pretty big gap between the two.
Voyager is probably my favourite Trek series, actually. Not that I'd call it the best by any stretch considering all of its flaws, but for some reason I find it the most enjoyable to come back to for individual episodes. Even though I'd say DS9 was the strongest series, I don't find it quite as enjoyable when you take an individual episode out of context of the story arcs.
But that's just my personal preference, since I enjoy the technology / spaceship stuff, and Voyager was able to do a lot more of that than the earlier series that didn't have CGI.
-
Voyager is probably my favourite Trek series, actually. Not that I'd call it the best by any stretch considering all of its flaws, but for some reason I find it the most enjoyable to come back to for individual episodes. Even though I'd say DS9 was the strongest series, I don't find it quite as enjoyable when you take an individual episode out of context of the story arcs.
Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. I think where there's a difference is that while the day in, day out Voyager episodes tend to be better, the very best Voyager episodes can't compare with the best of TNG, DS9 or even TOS for that matter. All of the series had some real stinkers, some very good episodes, and a whole lot of average, probably at the same ratio. At the same time, when you think of great Star Trek, there are a handful of standout episodes:
Doomsday Machine
City on the Edge of Forever
Inner Light
Defector
Visitor
Pale Moonlight
???
What Voyager episode can you put on the same list as Pale Moonlight? There were plenty of very good ones, but none that really compare.
On a different note, it's a shame Data was never in command more often. Both times he's the captain of a ship he's a real hoot. They should have found a way to better utilize that.
-
I'd rank plenty of Voyager episodes up there among Trek's best. Off the top of my head I'd say Timeless, Year of Hell, Before and After, Counterpoint, Critical Care, Real Life, Latent Image.
Are they as good as In The Pale Moonlight? No, but then again, neither is anything from TOS. TBH there are only a handful of TOS I can even take seriously as science fiction at all, let alone legitimately consider ranking among Trek's best (although City on the Edge of Forever is definitely one of the greats that I watch regularly), so the thought of Voyager episodes not comparing to that is laughable.
I'm not saying Voyager was the best series by any means, but when it hit the mark (which was still pretty often), it was definitely up there with Trek's best output. The show had clear flaws, but they learned how to play to their strengths, and minimize some of the weaknesses, and even managed certain types of episodes better than any other Trek series.
-
One of my favourite Voyager episodes is Blink Of An Eye.
I like the idea of a couple of days for Voyager being centuries for the people on the planet.
But Voyager's worst ( Threshold ) is still way worse than TNG's worst ( Genesis ).
-
One of my favourite Voyager episodes is Blink Of An Eye.
I like the idea of a couple of days for Voyager being centuries for the people on the planet.
But Voyager's worst ( Threshold ) is still way worse than TNG's worst ( Genesis ).
Threshold does indeed suck big donkey balls, but TNG had its share of equally sucky episodes too. And I think Distant Origin is a worse episode than Threshold anyway. My first thought was Genesis, which is every bit as bad, and also the episode where there's some video encoded in the DNA of every species by some "god" race that happens to run on a tricorder, or some shit like that. Awful, awful episode.
Geez, I guess Trek really doesn't understand evolution at all, because they always make terrible episodes from it. :lol
I almost mentioned Blink of an Eye too. One of my favourite Voyager episodes.
-
One of my favourite Voyager episodes is Blink Of An Eye.
I like the idea of a couple of days for Voyager being centuries for the people on the planet.
But Voyager's worst ( Threshold ) is still way worse than TNG's worst ( Genesis ).
Threshold does indeed suck big donkey balls, but TNG had its share of equally sucky episodethere's s too. And I think Distant Origin is a worse episode than Threshold anyway. My first thought was Genesis, which is every bit as bad, and also the episode where some video encoded in the DNA of every species by some "god" race that happens to run on a tricorder, or some shit like that. Awful, awful episode.
Geez, I guess Trek really doesn't understand evolution at all, because they always make terrible episodes from it. :lol
I almost mentioned Blink of an Eye too. One of my favourite Voyager episodes.
Oh lord, I remember that episode... Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, Humans... all racing to get the sequence, all thinking it was some super power, and it's a 30 second video clip of "why can't we all just get along?"
-
I liked Voyager as well but I'd say my favorite show was DS9. They have my 2 favorite episodes of all time,
Far Beyond The Stars & Take Me Out to the Holosuite.
-
I liked Voyager as well but I'd say my favorite show was DS9. They have my 2 favorite episodes of all time,
Far Beyond The Stars & Take Me Out to the Holosuite.
Ooooooh don't get me started on that episode, king. :lol One of the very few duds of DS9 imo. You're right in the thick of the Dominion war, but you can waste two weeks training for some dead sport just because the other kid said you were no good? Bah! Scifi and sports should be mutually exclusive viewing!
-
Geez, I guess Trek really doesn't understand evolution at all, because they always make terrible episodes from it. :lol
Ironic considering Roddenberry was not religious - he sure did make evolution look like a heap of balls.
-
hehehehe. I don't know, I just love when a ST episode is a little different. You know goes where no man has gone before? :neverusethis:
-
hehehehe. I don't know, I just love when a ST episode is a little different. You know goes where no man has gone before? :neverusethis:
I dislike sports (typical nerd, really), so it should come as no surprise that it wasn't exactly my favourite episode.
I prefer the trippy science fictiony stuff, with spacial anomalies, and teasers where you don't know what the hell is going on. Episodes where they're recreating my worst nightmares, not so much. :neverusethis:
-
So pretty much like Work then. I loved his reaction playing the game. :lol but you are right that the Dominion war was for me, the defining moment for all series. It was so well done.
-
So pretty much like Work then. I loved his reaction playing the game. :lol but you are right that the Dominion war was for me, the defining moment for all series. It was so well done.
Work...... yeah, I've heard of him. He was that Klingon guy that came over from TNG, right?
-
FUUUUUUUU........... :lol
Worf dammit! :rollin
-
I'd rank plenty of Voyager episodes up there among Trek's best. Off the top of my head I'd say Timeless, Year of Hell, Before and After, Counterpoint, Critical Care, Real Life, Latent Image.
Year of Hell and Blink of an Eye are excellent episodes. At the same time, they're still well below the best of the other series best, IMO. Most of the ones I listed really pushed ST to a whole new level, and VOY never did that. Probably the closest they came to really hitting one out of the park was Destination Oblivion, or whatever it was called.
Distant Origin was a pretty good episode which suffered from a horribly stupid premise. The old science vs dogma argument is perfect grist for sci-fi and Star Trek tended to do it pretty well. In this case the whole Planet of the Apes theme was carried out pretty well. If they'd used anything but sentient dinosaurs it'd have been fine. TNG did the same episode without that pretext in First Contact and it worked great.
The only thing that made TMOttH watchable was Worf shouting death to the opposition! Without that one line we'd all be talking about how rotten an episode it was.
-
I wouldn't say Year of Hell or Blink of an Eye are well below the other series' best at all, especially TOS. Voyager pushed forward in different areas, and many of those episodes are things the other series never managed as well. Course: Oblivion was a good episode, but they had plenty of much better episodes.
However, Distant Origin was stupid on every single possible level. It was a nice idea in theory, but it was so transparently executed, and most of Voyager's part in the episode was revealing the ridiculous notion of dinosaurs developing space flight and moving to the DQ millions of years ago, and idea so utterly preposterous that not even TOS would have touched that one with a 10 foot pole, and this is a series that had Nazi planet, US constitution planet, Jesus planet etc etc. All I can think of is the Robot Chicken skit that is basically the same idea of dinosaurs developing rockets. :lol
The only credit I can give to that episode is having the balls to have the opening 1/3 of the episode entirely take place with new characters/settings, and having a downer ending. I know Spock's Brain gets lumped as the worst episode of Trek (when it's not even that bad for TOS), but this episode makes it look like TWOK by comparison. :lol
-
Now I have to watch it :P
-
I wouldn't put Year of Hell amongst the series' best either, mainly because the ending is a typical time travel/reset button/copout/bullshit ending. Especially after all the hints and foreshadowing that this was going to be some tough shit and then they have an ending like that?
Typical Voyager weaksauce ending.
I really do need to rewatch Voyager though. It's been a long time since I watched the show, which was back when it was first airing on television.
-
I can't watch Voyager as well as TNG.
I just don't care about anyone on board Voyager. Unlike TNG.
The only interesting one on Voyager is the Doc.
-
I have to say after watching DS9 (I am almost done with season 6), I find DS9 to be the strongest series... but Voyager, which is weaker no IMO, had the best concept.
-
Voyager had a good premise - it was literally where no one had gone before - but they did precisely fuck all with it.
Most of the stories could have been done on Enterprise D in the Alpha Quadrant.
i wonder if any of Voyager's scripts were unused TNG or DS9 episodes that weren't up to scratch and they just re-jigged the characters...
-
Voyager gad a good premise - it was literally where no one had gone before - but they did precisely fuck all with it.
Most of the stories could have been done on Enterprise D in the Alpha Quadrant.
What exactly would a non-Alpha quadrant story look like? That makes no sense. I'd say a more correct statement is that half of TNG and DS9 episodes could have just as easily been done in the Delta Quadrant. Unknown aliens and weird spacial phenomena.
-
I'm just saying that most of Voyager's episodes could have been done on TNG. They didn't need to be 75,000 Light years from home.
-
They were on the other side of the galaxy. Many expected aliens that were "totally different" -- whatever that means. Incredibly huge, or with bizarre physiologies, or something. Intead, we generally got the same "forehead aliens of the week" that plagued all other Star Trek shows. Heck, the Kazon were basically Klingons on bad hair days.
There was Species 8472, which was quite different. And I suppose that running into The Borg made some sense. But what else did we get that was truly alien? The giant "virus" which made no sense. I'm trying to think of others.
Also, I read an interview very early in the first season wherein the powers-that-be mentioned the obvious pitfall to avoid, the "Gilligan's Island Syndrome". Each week, they'd encounter some unexpected way to possibly get home, but it would always get botched. Okay, they didn't do that every week, but I seem to recall a few episodes that more or less fell into that category.
In the same interview, they mentioned that hopefully they'd go five to seven seasons, during which time, while the distance seemed insurmountable, there would also be a feeling that they were making progress the whole time. A reason to keep hopes up. I think we got a shortcut or two, which was good. Too many would have been silly, so they had to strike a balance. But overall, it just felt like they spent seven years going nowhere, then suddenly at the end there was a miraculous, unexpected break, and they took it. Ta-da, we're home, fade to black.
-
Voyager was the worst offender for THE END type shows.
I really hate when episodes just END with no wrap up or epilogue. Just TRY THIS IT WORKED THE END.
It just makes you feel like you invest ed that time in the episode for nothing.
TNG mostly had good wrap ups at the end.
Voyager's Journey's End wrap up was basically YAY WE'RE HOME THE END>
Terrible. No sense of closure at all. Could at least have showed them back on earth with families for a 5 minute montage.
-
All Star Trek series suffer from contrived endings. I don't think VOY was any worse than the others in that regard. Hell, I'm watching one of the very worst offenders right now. Data cures a virus and then everything's back to normal. Even the damage they did while they were infected disappears.
Part of the problem is that characters aren't supposed to die, so you have to limit consequences. No matter how dire the situation, you always know that Picard, Kira or Paris aren't going to die. Factor in that TNG didn't like killing crewmembers, and VOY couldn't spare them, you generally have to wrap things up without too many negative effects.
As for the Delta Quadrant aliens, I'm not sure why they need to be any different than any other aliens. If that were the case, then shouldn't the Gamma Quadrant aliens have been similarly different? Besides which, we're talking about a pretty cheap syndicated show, with most of the budget going to fancy-ass CGI. Goofy foreheads are a cheap tactic that all of the shows have employed for that reason.
-
Yeah, all of those particular flaws applied to all Trek (and a lot of scifi in general that has to cram a story into 45 minutes or so), but the only one that really bothered me was in Endgame.
That episode really needed a more thorough ending than just appearing at Earth and that's it. Totally cock blocked any sense of closure despite them getting home. DS9 is an example of how to do a final episode perfectly. I don't think I can fault that finale.
-
I'm watching "Relics" right now, and iv really don't like the episode. It's a shame that Doohan's last (was it actually?) Star Trek appearance portrayed him as a whiny loser unable to face the changing times.
EDIT: Apparently Relics came out one month before ST: TUD.
-
Generations was after that, not that it counts for much.
-
On a side note, it's interesting that Kirk, Picard and Sisko stood on the original Enterprise bridge.
-
And Archer sorta did. It was an identical set/ship, but technically it was the USS Defiant (not to be confused with the DS9 Defiant).
-
I'm watching "Relics" right now, and iv really don't like the episode. It's a shame that Doohan's last (was it actually?) Star Trek appearance portrayed him as a whiny loser unable to face the changing times.
Indeed. A couple of weeks ago I DL'ed every TNG episode I might be interested in watching. Turned out to be 68, or a little over 1/3 of the series that I don't think sucks. Relics was in there, but I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. Like you said, it's really kind of a bummer of an episode. Particularly since the original Scotty could be a pretty rough guy.
-
Yeah, all of those particular flaws applied to all Trek (and a lot of scifi in general that has to cram a story into 45 minutes or so), but the only one that really bothered me was in Endgame.
That episode really needed a more thorough ending than just appearing at Earth and that's it. Totally cock blocked any sense of closure despite them getting home. DS9 is an example of how to do a final episode perfectly. I don't think I can fault that finale.
If I was a crew member on Voyager and got home after 7 years of space travel - I don't think i'd want to set foot on a starship again :P
You'd just be too worried about lightning striking twice !
-
Part 2 of Descent is one of the very worst episodes of TNG ever made. I don't know what it is, but they just suck at season premiers. The cliffhanger parts are always just fine, but the continuations always blow. And it just seems to be the season premier ones. The occasional middle of the season two parters are usually quite good. Unification, Chain of Command, Birthright, Gambit, all just fine. Best of Both worlds, Times Arrow, Descent, all just fine for the first part, and miserable for the conclusion. Only Redemption breaks that mold, and even that had too much Lursa and Betor; lousy characters.
I can't help but think that if Kirk had ever left the ship and taken everybody but McCoy and left him in charge of things, people here would be having kittens about how fucking asinine it was. Picard is supposed to be some god among men as a captain, and yet he thinks he's better suited to searching a planet than any other officer on board?
-
The captain got to be the captain by virtue of his experience. With that comes great responsibility of course, but also privilege. If he feels like leading the away team, that's his prerogative. He's gone on countless away teams before now, and led many of the recent ones. You don't leave that kind of experience on the ship and send someone else.
If I spent my entire life working my way up the ranks to captain of the flagship, only to discover that my job now consists of sitting in a chair watching a big screen, telling someone else where to fly the ship, telling someone else to go down to the planet and check things out, reading reports and making "important" decisions, I'd be bored as hell. I'm the captain, I'm putting someone else in charge of the ship for a few hours, and I'm heading down to the planet to check things out. I have more experience in this kind of thing than anyone else on board, and no one's gonna question my orders.
-
and even that had too much Lursa and Betor; lousy characters.
:(
I could watch an entire episode of just those two...facing the camera....on mute.....
(ok...with bags over their heads.) :rollin
-
The captain got to be the captain by virtue of his experience. With that comes great responsibility of course, but also privilege. If he feels like leading the away team, that's his prerogative. He's gone on countless away teams before now, and led many of the recent ones. You don't leave that kind of experience on the ship and send someone else.
If I spent my entire life working my way up the ranks to captain of the flagship, only to discover that my job now consists of sitting in a chair watching a big screen, telling someone else where to fly the ship, telling someone else to go down to the planet and check things out, reading reports and making "important" decisions, I'd be bored as hell. I'm the captain, I'm putting someone else in charge of the ship for a few hours, and I'm heading down to the planet to check things out. I have more experience in this kind of thing than anyone else on board, and no one's gonna question my orders.
They were in a hostile environment. That seals the deal. In any fleet in the history of the universe he'd have been court-martialed.
-
The captain got to be the captain by virtue of his experience. With that comes great responsibility of course, but also privilege. If he feels like leading the away team, that's his prerogative. He's gone on countless away teams before now, and led many of the recent ones. You don't leave that kind of experience on the ship and send someone else.
If I spent my entire life working my way up the ranks to captain of the flagship, only to discover that my job now consists of sitting in a chair watching a big screen, telling someone else where to fly the ship, telling someone else to go down to the planet and check things out, reading reports and making "important" decisions, I'd be bored as hell. I'm the captain, I'm putting someone else in charge of the ship for a few hours, and I'm heading down to the planet to check things out. I have more experience in this kind of thing than anyone else on board, and no one's gonna question my orders.
They were in a hostile environment. That seals the deal. In any fleet in the history of the universe he'd have been court-martialed.
Like that *ever* stopped Kirk...
-
Like I said, if Kirk had done that people here would never stop blasting him over it. Kirk always had qualified command officers run the shop.
-
Like I said, if Kirk had done that people here would never stop blasting him over it. Kirk always had qualified command officers run the shop.
I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure Kirk left people of even lesser status in charge on TOS. Sometimes he would bring ALL the officers back from an away team and some random nobody had to get out of the captains chair to let him sit down. And wasn't Scotty left in charge a couple of times? Isn't he even lower on the totem pole than McCoy? Last I checked, the doctor is a ship's officer...
I never really thought about it...but I don't think it would be weird if he did leave McCoy in charge....certainly not a court martial offence.
-
Should I mention that Crusher was captain of a ship in All Good Things? The show made a point, at least at some point, that she was qualified to captain a ship. Maybe it they went that way to explain away Descent, but there were at least a few times the show put her in charge.
-
Like I said, if Kirk had done that people here would never stop blasting him over it. Kirk always had qualified command officers run the shop.
I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure Kirk left people of even lesser status in charge on TOS. Sometimes he would bring ALL the officers back from an away team and some random nobody had to get out of the captains chair to let him sit down. And wasn't Scotty left in charge a couple of times? Isn't he even lower on the totem pole than McCoy? Last I checked, the doctor is a ship's officer...
Scott was a commander, the same rank as Riker or Data, and was second officer. He would always be 3rd in line. Sulu was only a lieutenant, but bridge officers are going to rank higher in the CoC. Not sure what DeSalle's story was, but I would assume that he was a command level officer, as well.
And to be fair, I'm not necessarily saying that Crusher wasn't qualified. I'm saying they had been attacked by the Borg, they could reasonably expect to be attacked again, and the search parties didn't require the ship's captain to leave the ship. It was a stupid contrivence made up to add an unnecessary dramatic element (that was quite frankly cheesy anyway).
-
Part 2 of Descent is one of the very worst episodes of TNG ever made. I don't know what it is, but they just suck at season premiers. The cliffhanger parts are always just fine, but the continuations always blow. And it just seems to be the season premier ones. The occasional middle of the season two parters are usually quite good. Unification, Chain of Command, Birthright, Gambit, all just fine. Best of Both worlds, Times Arrow, Descent, all just fine for the first part, and miserable for the conclusion. Only Redemption breaks that mold, and even that had too much Lursa and Betor; lousy characters.
I can't help but think that if Kirk had ever left the ship and taken everybody but McCoy and left him in charge of things, people here would be having kittens about how fucking asinine it was. Picard is supposed to be some god among men as a captain, and yet he thinks he's better suited to searching a planet than any other officer on board?
Hey, whoa, let's not get crazy now. Part 2 was not as good as Part 1 but it certainly wasn't miserable.
-
I'm on the episode now where Fanke Janssen plays a space hussy.
-
I'm on the episode now where Fanke Janssen plays a space hussy.
**DROOL**
One of my favorites. She's not that cute...but her character is a dream come true!
-
Her character is annoying though !
She reminds me of a few times when you get approached by pissed up bints when you're out and about. :lol
" Awright maaaaaate "
" piss off please - I'l catch an STD just from looking at you. " :xbones
" Darmok " now.
Darmok & Jalad At Tenagra :omg:
I knew I recognised the Tamarian captain - had to look him up to find out he was Capt. Terrell from Wrath of Khan.
-
I don't share the dislike for Descent. Yes, the individualist Borg were a bit lame, but the "Lore manipulates his brother to turn on his friends" was good IMHO. Very sinister, and not a plot type you see very often in TV shows.
-
I don't share the dislike for Descent. Yes, the individualist Borg were a bit lame, but the "Lore manipulates his brother to turn on his friends" was good IMHO. Very sinister, and not a plot type you see very often in TV shows.
If it had just been a Lore episode, it might have been a little better, although I think Lore's a terrible character. All of the elements though make for a pretty lousy episode. You had the Borg thing. You had the terrible Crusher subplot. Worst of all, the ease with which Data flipped. All it takes is to give him a sample taste of bloodlust and he's instantly ready to whack Geordi? Seems implausible for him to become so irrational so easily.
-
I definitely agree with the latter, but the ease with which Data was manipulated (activate homing signal = Data takes control of Enterprise) falls nicely into the habit of Star Trek to define a character by quality X, and then almost exclusively do episodes about how they are *not* X. I'm right now trying to think of the number of episodes where Data was manipulated to act differently, there are so many of them. On top of Descent and "Brothers": Masks, A Fistful of Datas...
-
TNG Rule - Conversations last exactly as long as the turbolift journey.
Also - a computer or terminal / communication will occur the moment a conversation is over.
Almost watched the entirety of Season 5 of TNG. It's got some great episodes that's for sure.
-
Looking over the list of episodes I DL'ed, it would appear that season 5 has the strongest episodes, but also the most filler. Five and six were definitely where it was really in it's stride, and then it just up and died during 7. I actually consider season 7 to be worse than the first season. They were just fresh out of ideas, and knew it.
-
(https://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo299/000jesus/startrek_zpsd3c3897e.png)
Anybody recall what this is from? It was a frame during the closing credits of a TOS episode, and damned if I know which one it comes from.
-
According to The Google, it's not from an episode, but an outtake of the guy who played the Android in Return to Tomorrow pulling off his latex face mask.
-
Well, that explains why I couldn't place it. I always just figured for the 30 seconds the android was on the screen it was a mannequin.
-
He does very briefly move his hand, and he looks too real to be a mannequin to me (especially for a TV show from the '60s on a budget). I guess it wasn't too expensive to grease up a guy and put some latex on his face.
Apparently it's one of the few instances of a credits image not being a still from an episode, so that would also explain why you (or I) couldn't place it. You wouldn't forget a man ripping his own face off. :lol
-
Just watched Inner Light, and as good as the episode is, it's horribly flawed at the end. Having all of his family just show up to tell him what had been going on really wrecked it, IMO. Tidy endings aren't always necessary, and in some cases they can really undermine everything that preceded it. He should have died of old age, woken up on the floor of the bridge, said holy shit!, and then gone on to gradually piece everything together. Would have been much more powerful that way.
-
I don't think that's flawed at all. The people who made the thing had to make sure it served its purpose, so it makes more sense to explicitly finish off the history rather than assume the person is going to piece it all together fully. And I don't think an ending of one person figuring out and basically telling you the same thing would have been any more dramatic. Actually, I think it would have been a bit of a boring ending to play out, and would have taken longer, and thus eaten into other parts of the episode too.
My only gripe with the episode is that this race wasn't smart enough to save themselves, but was smart enough to make the probe at all, and that it was advanced enough to be a match for the Enterprise's fancy tech. I know they did leave it rather than risk killing Picard, but the fact it even got that far wasn't believable to me.
-
We need a sticky thread :
" BlobVanDam & El Barto's Comprehensive List of Flaws and Plot Holes in All Star Trek Episodes & Movies. "
-
All Star Trek Discussion Thread v. El Barto and BlobVanDam disagree on everything and have to settle their differences with a fight to the death just like in every episode of TOS.
Couldn't help myself. Sorry. :blush
-
If the Blu Ray and DVD seasons didn't cost a first child and a second mortgage I would by them and get into it with both El Barto and HRBlobness. I read their arguments and say, "Oh yeah! I remember that episode now!" :lol
-
Netflix, King. Netflix. :)
I watched several 7th season TNG episodes and have to agree with that must have run out of ideas. Like, "Genesis"? Wtf. "Journey's End"? Only positive aspect is that they finally had gotten rid of Wesley, who was just insufferable in that episode.
-
I used to do netflix but with the cable I've got and all the shows I watch now, it's hard to justify spending more money.
-
All Star Trek Discussion Thread v. El Barto and BlobVanDam disagree on everything and have to settle their differences with a fight to the death just like in every episode of TOS.
If both survive the lirpa, combat will continue with the ahn woon.
-
I don't think that's flawed at all. The people who made the thing had to make sure it served its purpose, so it makes more sense to explicitly finish off the history rather than assume the person is going to piece it all together fully. And I don't think an ending of one person figuring out and basically telling you the same thing would have been any more dramatic. Actually, I think it would have been a bit of a boring ending to play out, and would have taken longer, and thus eaten into other parts of the episode too.
It was dumbed down and patronizing. It was still an excellent episode, it's just a shame the writers didn't have the balls to let it end a little more subtly.
I watched several 7th season TNG episodes and have to agree with that must have run out of ideas. Like, "Genesis"? Wtf. "Journey's End"? Only positive aspect is that they finally had gotten rid of Wesley, who was just insufferable in that episode.
Gerodi's mom. Data's mom. Worf's brother. Crusher's grandmother. The ship becomes alive. Worf and Troi. They were just grasping at straws at that point. :facepalm:
If both survive the lirpa, combat will continue with the ahn woon.
Hell, Blob couldn't even survive the Earth's one sun. Vulcan would turn him into ashes.
-
I don't think that's flawed at all. The people who made the thing had to make sure it served its purpose, so it makes more sense to explicitly finish off the history rather than assume the person is going to piece it all together fully. And I don't think an ending of one person figuring out and basically telling you the same thing would have been any more dramatic. Actually, I think it would have been a bit of a boring ending to play out, and would have taken longer, and thus eaten into other parts of the episode too.
It was dumbed down and patronizing. It was still an excellent episode, it's just a shame the writers didn't have the balls to let it end a little more subtly.
I agree. A great episode, but an awkward and semi-crappy ending. We could have gotten the same message with Picard reflecting a little later on what the heck just happened to him.
"I believe that the people of Kataan knew that their world was ending, that they could not save it, and that they wanted its legacy to live on. They had the means to record not merely written and visual artifacts, but actually record the essence of a life. People could actually know what it was to live on Kataan, and that is what I have experienced..."
Something like that.
Riker, Crusher and the others are gathered around, lots of understanding nods. We get the same message, but not nearly so heavy-handed. Then they all leave and Picard whips out his flute.
-
Another problem, since people here are so obsessive about plot holes, is how they knew to put the flute in their in the first place. Maybe the guy they snatch hates music. If he'd actually gone back in time, then it would have made perfect sense; they'd have just put whatever item Kayman had a fondness for into the rocket. If it was all in his head, which the presence of his dead friends and family clearly suggests, then the creators had to have put the flute in the rocket 1000 years ago, on the assumption that he'd develop an attachment for it. I suppose that's part of the problem with the dumbed down ending. It makes it obvious that the thing was all in his head. Some mystery about how the situation actually occurred would have been better, and there's no reason why it couldn't have suggested that they moved him back in time 1000 years and then brought him back.
-
We need a sticky thread :
" BlobVanDam & El Barto's Comprehensive List of Flaws and Plot Holes in Nitpicking Of All Star Trek Episodes & Movies. "
FIFY
Sometimes I wonder why you two even watch the shows.
-
We need a sticky thread :
" BlobVanDam & El Barto's Comprehensive List of Flaws and Plot Holes in Nitpicking Of All Star Trek Episodes & Movies. "
FIFY
Sometimes I wonder why you two even watch the shows.
THANK YOU.
-
We need a sticky thread :
" BlobVanDam & El Barto's Comprehensive List of Flaws and Plot Holes in Nitpicking Of All Star Trek Episodes & Movies. "
FIFY
Sometimes I wonder why you two even watch the shows.
to provide hours of entertainment for us who read this board. Lol
-
No shit. Why even have a ST thread if we can't discuss both the good and bad?
Earlier I bagged on an episode with Worf's brother. To be fair, it's actually quite good from an ethics standpoint. The subplot with his brother is unnecessary and detracts overall, but it's still a good episode.
-
Another problem, since people here are so obsessive about plot holes, is how they knew to put the flute in their in the first place. Maybe the guy they snatch hates music. If he'd actually gone back in time, then it would have made perfect sense; they'd have just put whatever item Kayman had a fondness for into the rocket. If it was all in his head, which the presence of his dead friends and family clearly suggests, then the creators had to have put the flute in the rocket 1000 years ago, on the assumption that he'd develop an attachment for it. I suppose that's part of the problem with the dumbed down ending. It makes it obvious that the thing was all in his head. Some mystery about how the situation actually occurred would have been better, and there's no reason why it couldn't have suggested that they moved him back in time 1000 years and then brought him back.
I took it differently. To me, he was living through a scripted experience, kinda like watching a movie, but a far more immersive. It doesn't matter whether Picard had a previous latent liking for playing the flute or not; he was made to like it, just as he was made to love his wife, or made to care about his town. So, given it was a script, they simply wanted to leave a physical reminder for him, a memento.
And that's also why it doesn't bother me that all the dead people come back at the end; it's the equivalent of the credits at the end of a movie.
No shit. Why even have a ST thread if we can't discuss both the good and bad?
This. We've gone through this over and over. Yes, we actually spend most of the time discussing the flaws of ST, but at least to me it's because the assumption is that we love it anyway. It's like a couple bickering with each other because it's keeps it interesting, not because they actually don't like each other.
Yes, I just used a marriage analogy. Call me MP.
-
Another problem, since people here are so obsessive about plot holes, is how they knew to put the flute in their in the first place. Maybe the guy they snatch hates music. If he'd actually gone back in time, then it would have made perfect sense; they'd have just put whatever item Kayman had a fondness for into the rocket. If it was all in his head, which the presence of his dead friends and family clearly suggests, then the creators had to have put the flute in the rocket 1000 years ago, on the assumption that he'd develop an attachment for it. I suppose that's part of the problem with the dumbed down ending. It makes it obvious that the thing was all in his head. Some mystery about how the situation actually occurred would have been better, and there's no reason why it couldn't have suggested that they moved him back in time 1000 years and then brought him back.
I took it differently. To me, he was living through a scripted experience, kinda like watching a movie, but a far more immersive. It doesn't matter whether Picard had a previous latent liking for playing the flute or not; he was made to like it, just as he was made to love his wife, or made to care about his town. So, given it was a script, they simply wanted to leave a physical reminder for him, a memento.
And that's also why it doesn't bother me that all the dead people come back at the end; it's the equivalent of the credits at the end of a movie.
Well that would seriously detract from the impact they were trying to impart. We've discussed traveling before, and you like to spend a good deal of time any place you visit, so as to gain a better understanding of the culture. To use that analogy, would you rather the week you spend in Timbuktu be from your own "Rumborak" perspective, or the scripted tourist perspective where everything you do is planned? Which would give you the greater feel of the environment? If your sole plan for continuing your civilization is to make a future person a part of it, I'd think you'd want them to actually live it, rather than just be on hand as it plays out.
-
I don't think it means the "Picard" was completely switched off in all this. I think it's kinda like one of those point-and-click adventure computer games. You can make certain choices, but in the end the outcome and overall plot is fixed.
-
Another problem, since people here are so obsessive about plot holes, is how they knew to put the flute in their in the first place. Maybe the guy they snatch hates music. If he'd actually gone back in time, then it would have made perfect sense; they'd have just put whatever item Kayman had a fondness for into the rocket. If it was all in his head, which the presence of his dead friends and family clearly suggests, then the creators had to have put the flute in the rocket 1000 years ago, on the assumption that he'd develop an attachment for it. I suppose that's part of the problem with the dumbed down ending. It makes it obvious that the thing was all in his head. Some mystery about how the situation actually occurred would have been better, and there's no reason why it couldn't have suggested that they moved him back in time 1000 years and then brought him back.
I disagree on keeping the mystery, as I still think the neat ending works here, when you think about what the people went through the make this probe. Why would they not give it away? The whole purpose is to keep their memory alive, and I think clarity only helps there. I know you're talking from a story-telling pov, but I'd rather it made more sense in-universe (which I think it does as is).
But I definitely agree on the flute thing. That did bug me on first watch. They used to do it in Macgyver too, except it wasn't scifi, it was just a dream, then he'd wake up holding some item from the dream, and it would make no sense at all. :rollin But I recall the episode had Tracy Lords in it, so that redeemed it. :blob:
If both survive the lirpa, combat will continue with the ahn woon.
Hell, Blob couldn't even survive the Earth's one sun. Vulcan would turn him into ashes.
:lol
-
And git reed of that DAHM CONDLE!!!
:P :angel:
-
And git reed of that DAHM CONDLE!!!
:P :angel:
Scottish ? :lol
-
No shit. Why even have a ST thread if we can't discuss both the good and bad?
Earlier I bagged on an episode with Worf's brother. To be fair, it's actually quite good from an ethics standpoint. The subplot with his brother is unnecessary and detracts overall, but it's still a good episode.
This. We've gone through this over and over. Yes, we actually spend most of the time discussing the flaws of ST, but at least to me it's because the assumption is that we love it anyway. It's like a couple bickering with each other because it's keeps it interesting, not because they actually don't like each other.
Yes, I just used a marriage analogy. Call me MP.
Point taken.
I still think there's some pretty obsessive nitpicking going on in here sometimes, but maybe that's just part and parcel of being a Trek fan.
I disagree on keeping the mystery, as I still think the neat ending works here, when you think about what the people went through the make this probe. Why would they not give it away? The whole purpose is to keep their memory alive, and I think clarity only helps there. I know you're talking from a story-telling pov, but I'd rather it made more sense in-universe (which I think it does as is).
But I definitely agree on the flute thing. That did bug me on first watch. They used to do it in Macgyver too, except it wasn't scifi, it was just a dream, then he'd wake up holding some item from the dream, and it would make no sense at all. :rollin But I recall the episode had Tracy Lords in it, so that redeemed it. :blob:
I agree, except the flute thing doesn't bug me at all.
I think bagging on a Trek episode for lacking subtlety or being heavy-handed is missing the point. Trek has never really been subtle about getting its message across. There were some that were a bit more ambiguous, but 'subtle' was not featured in the Trek manifesto.
-
I wondered the other day what would be the point of Data taking exams at Starfleet ? he'd surely get 100% on everything :lol
Meanwhile - I am watching The Game and Brent Spiner has made me laugh my arse off several times in this episode. :rollin
-
Why would he get 100% on everything? Fact reproduction and closed form calculation, yeah, he'd excel, but that's only if they grade that way in every class. Mixing sentience with computational power doesn't solve the world's problems. I'm not even talking about the arts, but in engineering and mathematical fields he could really struggle like any human mind would. Especially higher end mathematics, there's a sense of cleverness involved in proofs and with intractable computational problems, even his advanced mind wouldn't be powerful enough to just be correct based on brute force computation.
-
I hate to bring up the episode because I don't like Pulaski, but that's exactly what Elementary, Dear Data is about, I.e. Data's ability to do more than just reciting stored facts.
Man, Pulaski's role sucked. She was supposed to be the Bones and bring in the bickering between the crew members, but hers just came across as belligerent.
-
Belligerence would have been wonderful. The fact that she was so polite and dedicated detracted from that role. Add to that, she was always the outsider. They'd all established how much they adored Crusher, and Pulaski was never admitted into their little clique. McCoy had the advantage of being a dick, but also best friends with the two people he was a dick towards.
-
I hate to bring up the episode because I don't like Pulaski, but that's exactly what Elementary, Dear Data is about, I.e. Data's ability to do more than just reciting stored facts.
Man, Pulaski's role sucked. She was supposed to be the Bones and bring in the bickering between the crew members, but hers just came across as belligerent.
I never liked Pulaski - she was just cocky and not much else.
-
I hate to bring up the episode because I don't like Pulaski, but that's exactly what Elementary, Dear Data is about, I.e. Data's ability to do more than just reciting stored facts.
Man, Pulaski's role sucked. She was supposed to be the Bones and bring in the bickering between the crew members, but hers just came across as belligerent.
Did I say Data could not do anything but recite stored facts?
-
If you think I attacked you, I apologize, that was not my intent. I was trying to point out that whatever tests Data had to take in Starfleet Academy, they will have involved creative problem solving too, and that that exact ability was addressed in that episode.
Speaking of tests, the way they were shown in ST never made a lot of sense. I mean, Kobayashi Maru, how many times can you use that test really? Twice, at best. After that the whole Academy knows the test and it's useless.
Same thing with Wesley's personal Kobayashi test at Starfleet. I mean, he knows it's test time, and lo and behold, a whole fricking room explodes next to his waiting room.
Also rather unrealistic that they create these elaborate stage setups for something that might not even be an issue for the cadet. "Oh, you thought I might have an issue with this based on my history? Yeah, I'm long over that."
-
I didn't take it as an attack, I just think you missed what I was saying. I wasn't implying he could not be clever, I was saying he has limits like anyone. Just being superior in processing department doesn't mean he is superior in all things that take cleverness/other skills. Even in pure calculation he has limits, it would be easy for people in my field to throw problems at Data he almost assuredly could not solve. There are multiple fields tied to the limitations of computers, studying what we can do now and what we can accomplish in the future (with or without advancements like quantum computing). Data has limits, throwing sentience in doesn't make him a god in all things. It's just not correct to assume he would be a 100% student across the board. He undoubtedly excels in some places, but who knows otherwise.
Thinking of it, he kind of acts closer to a mild savant than a Renaissance man. :lol I wonder if he would be near the top of his class overall.
-
Data's more than a walking calculator. For one thing, even if the first Pulaski test against Moriarty wasn't finished, all but one person thought he'd win, and he definitely won the second time around in the Ship in a Bottle episode. He figured out Moriarty's plan and turned it around on him. Furthermore, both times he was effectively in command of a ship he performed excellently, once relying completely on intuition. When he was alone or isolated he also handled himself well. The whole premise of the character is that he's a mimic of human behavior, so he's got access to a shit-ton of observed behavior to draw on. While I suppose he might have been less capable when he was actually in the academy, at the time we're seeing him he'd have been the all-time magna cul lauda.
As for the Kobayashi Maru, I believe they were under orders not to discuss it for that very reason. It's also possible that they changed the ship, or even the test around at random. I imagine a bridge officer in training takes all kinds of similar tests, so even if you knew that one of them was impossible to pass, schoolyard gossip and such, you wouldn't know when or where it would happen.
The only ST book I ever read was Kobayashi Maru, where six of them are stuck in a shuttlecraft for days and they all recount their experiences. Amusing read. The winner in the whole deal was Sulu, who decided that they shouldn't be in the neutral zone anyway, so fuck'em! :lol
-
Sigh, I never said he was only a walking calculator. My point is that sentience plus processing power does not make perfection. A) Comptuers have very real limits Star Trek does not challenge, so you can never use 'computational power' as a reason for him to just solve anything. B) There's no reason to presume superior computational power translates his sentience into superior everything else. He will excel in many things, but he could still struggle in others.
-
Was looking up a side character in Voyager and came across this fellow. Going to guess that nobody's ever heard of "Danger" Mandalone (https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dennis_Madalone), but he's pretty much the new Eddie Paskey. This guy's played over 45 different characters in every post-TOS series, and Undiscovered Country. He also seems to have been pretty much every known species at one point, including Human, Vulcan, Borg, Cardassian, Bajoran, Romulan, Klingon, Kazon, Breen and Morn, plus another dozen or so miscellaneous.
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120421012328/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/3/35/Dennis_Madalone.jpg/292px-Dennis_Madalone.jpg)
-
Dang! That guy really got around.
-
Guys like that remind me of unknown studio musicians. No one outside the business knows their names, but they've played on countless albums, including a few gold or even platinum. People have heard their work and never realized it, just as they've seen "Danger" Mandalone in countless scenes in TV shows and movies and never known who he was. But he gets steady work, he does what he likes to do, and he's good at it.
-
So, I'm watching "Homeward" right now (where Worf's brother saves those villagers), and one thing I never understood is, are those few people supposed to be the total complement of their race? Or are they the only ones saved, and billions of their brethren died on the planet when it keeled over?
-
Just started in on The Animated Series tonight on Netflix. I hadn't seen any of it since Saturday mornings over 30 years ago.
I was immediately impressed that the story lines were at least the equal of TOS. I'm impressed. Can't wait to watch the rest.
-
I never managed to last for many episodes with the Animated Series because it's rather campy after all. I did like though that they had more interesting aliens overall because they weren't bound by budget and makeup constraints.
-
I've seen every single live action episode of Star Trek, but never bothered with TAS. I've seen plenty of clips, and I'm familiar with a lot of what happens, but I've never seen a full episode. I've never been that desperate for more science fiction, not even with the current state of scifi on television. :lol
-
So, I'm watching "Homeward" right now (where Worf's brother saves those villagers), and one thing I never understood is, are those few people supposed to be the total complement of their race? Or are they the only ones saved, and billions of their brethren died on the planet when it keeled over?
I always figured it was just the group Worf's brother was supposed to be observing, and the rest of the planet died. Something you always see due to budget constraints is that primitive cultures tend to always live in small, isolated villages. It often seems like planets have a population in the tens.
I thought that was a pretty good episode, although the whole Worf's brother thing got in the way. Sibling rivalry didn't improve the episode.
-
So, I'm watching "Homeward" right now (where Worf's brother saves those villagers), and one thing I never understood is, are those few people supposed to be the total complement of their race? Or are they the only ones saved, and billions of their brethren died on the planet when it keeled over?
I always figured it was just the group Worf's brother was supposed to be observing, and the rest of the planet died. Something you always see due to budget constraints is that primitive cultures tend to always live in small, isolated villages. It often seems like planets have a population in the tens.
This always bugs me in scifi, not just Trek, but other shows where there are other planets/worlds. Due to the limitations of budget and time and plot, they always treat a planet as one city or village, as if the rest of the planet is entirely empty. I understand why they do it, but it does affect the believability of the story for me.
Sometimes they justify it in-universe, such as The Apple, where they weren't allowed to freely multiply to create exponential population growth, but a lot of the time it feels like the crew just lucked out, or the scenario just isn't believable if you try to apply it to a realistic planetary-wide scope.