DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[Bacong]

I just saw that interview question, and yeah there's no doubt in my mind he knew. "I'm still waiting..I haven't been told.." while clearly struggling on what to say. I would have expected that he'd be ready for that question though, and he did not look ready for it. maybe it's just that emotional for him

[cramx3]

From everything stated, there's no reason to think MM was "fired".  I think most of that talk is just because people are a bit confused between the difference of being let go vs. fired. (as discussed)

(my opinion follows)

I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band.  I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely.  More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band.  I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time.  Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly. 

Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song. 

I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team".  All my opinions and thoughts here.

[bosk1]

Personally, I think it was Mangini joining Avenged Sevenfold that triggered it.

[ReaPsTA]

I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band.  I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely.  More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band.  I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time.  Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly. 

Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song. 

I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team".  All my opinions and thoughts here.

"I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.

But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?

[bosk1]

"I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.

TONS of reasons why he might say that even if it was his decision to leave (or if it was a mutual decision). 

[Trav]

I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band.  I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely.  More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band.  I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time.  Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly. 

Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song. 

I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team".  All my opinions and thoughts here.

"I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.

But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?

This exactly. I think there are two things happening here.

  1. Bosk doesn't want everyone going around here saying that MM got "fired" because that gives a bad connotation, and that's fine. I don't think anyone here feels that the band sacked MM because of...fill in the blank...any negative reason. But we can't just keep arguing that it's a big mystery.  For probably multiple reasons, that really aren't anything to do with MM, they decided to bring Portnoy back. Therefore MM had to go. It's obvious, and just common sense. And it's pretty much told to us in the press release. I understand wanting to be respectful to MM and the rest of the band, but I don't see the point of dancing around this. Especially when a lot of it just seems to be semantics.

2. The other thing that I think makes this more mysterious is that we rarely see a band where the members transition so peacefully and with such mutual respect. It makes people question the obvious because it's been such a love fest between the Mike's on social media, which unfortunately is rare in instances like this.

[MirrorMask]

While I'm too in the camp "it's kinda obvious that they wanted Portnoy back so Mangini had to go", I can get behind the distinctions made in the last posts.

Blaze Bayley was fired from Iron Maiden. He was not performing as good as the band expected, the album was not well received and the audiences were dwindling, so the band decided to replace him and get Bruce back.

Ripper Owens was not really "fired". The press release stated that "Judas Priest and Ripper Owens parted amicably by mutual agreement" and in subsequent interviews Ripper said that he basically told the other guys "listen guys, if you have to do the reunion, do it now".

I guess we can all safely say that there was not a detrimental problem with the drumming in DT that led to loss of audiences and revenue to the point that a drummer change was desperately needed. That's why I said before that the reunion caught me by surprise - yes, MP was friend with everyone again and musical partner again with JP and JR, but there was no situation where it was "obvious" that Mangini's drumming was a big problem for DT (whereas Blaze Bayley was underperforming in Iron Maiden), there have been lot of discussions online about the reunion but I can safely say that nobody on the internet commented "I saw it coming from a mile away, Mangini was performing very badly every night").

So, while the situations cannot be really compared, I guess that if at all, Mangini's exit was more a Ripper thing and not a Blaze thing. He leaves excellent memories of his tenure in the band in the vast majority of the fans.

[ReaPsTA]

"I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.

TONS of reasons why he might say that even if it was his decision to leave (or if it was a mutual decision).

The closest thing I can think of to a counter-factual would be that, if it got out that Mangini wanted to leave, it would create some weird anti-Mangini narrative that everyone involved wanted to avoid. ("Can you imagine if he walked out and MP wasn't willing to rejoin? That would have left Dream Theater without a drummer!!!)

But that feels more complicated than - MP expressed interest in rejoining. JP and JR had re-formed a working relationship with him. Their families were talking more. JLB and MP made up. The band went from growing their audience to losing it. While MM has his solo album coming and will never be out of work, if he wanted to move on he would have talked more about the new directions he was planning on going in.

[ReaPsTA]

While I'm too in the camp "it's kinda obvious that they wanted Portnoy back so Mangini had to go", I can get behind the distinctions made in the last posts.

Blaze Bayley was fired from Iron Maiden. He was not performing as good as the band expected, the album was not well received and the audiences were dwindling, so the band decided to replace him and get Bruce back.

Ripper Owens was not really "fired". The press release stated that "Judas Priest and Ripper Owens parted amicably by mutual agreement" and in subsequent interviews Ripper said that he basically told the other guys "listen guys, if you have to do the reunion, do it now".

I guess we can all safely say that there was not a detrimental problem with the drumming in DT that led to loss of audiences and revenue to the point that a drummer change was desperately needed. That's why I said before that the reunion caught me by surprise - yes, MP was friend with everyone again and musical partner again with JP and JR, but there was no situation where it was "obvious" that Mangini's drumming was a big problem for DT (whereas Blaze Bayley was underperforming in Iron Maiden), there have been lot of discussions online about the reunion but I can safely say that nobody on the internet commented "I saw it coming from a mile away, Mangini was performing very badly every night").

So, while the situations cannot be really compared, I guess that if at all, Mangini's exit was more a Ripper thing and not a Blaze thing. He leaves excellent memories of his tenure in the band in the vast majority of the fans.

If MP was like "Now that I'm out of Dream Theater I'm done and don't want to go back", I can't imagine a scenario where Mangini is gone.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

While I'm too in the camp "it's kinda obvious that they wanted Portnoy back so Mangini had to go", I can get behind the distinctions made in the last posts.

Blaze Bayley was fired from Iron Maiden. He was not performing as good as the band expected, the album was not well received and the audiences were dwindling, so the band decided to replace him and get Bruce back.

Ripper Owens was not really "fired". The press release stated that "Judas Priest and Ripper Owens parted amicably by mutual agreement" and in subsequent interviews Ripper said that he basically told the other guys "listen guys, if you have to do the reunion, do it now".

I guess we can all safely say that there was not a detrimental problem with the drumming in DT that led to loss of audiences and revenue to the point that a drummer change was desperately needed. That's why I said before that the reunion caught me by surprise - yes, MP was friend with everyone again and musical partner again with JP and JR, but there was no situation where it was "obvious" that Mangini's drumming was a big problem for DT (whereas Blaze Bayley was underperforming in Iron Maiden), there have been lot of discussions online about the reunion but I can safely say that nobody on the internet commented "I saw it coming from a mile away, Mangini was performing very badly every night").

So, while the situations cannot be really compared, I guess that if at all, Mangini's exit was more a Ripper thing and not a Blaze thing. He leaves excellent memories of his tenure in the band in the vast majority of the fans.

If MP was like "Now that I'm out of Dream Theater I'm done and don't want to go back", I can't imagine a scenario where Mangini is gone.

i can. maybe he wants to retire, is dealing with family stuff, or health.

[bosk1]

But that feels more complicated than...

Yes, it does feel more complicated than a narrative that seems on its surface to check all the boxes.  But life often (probably more often than not) is more complicated than that.  Occam's razor is a useful rhetorical tool for dissecting arguments to determine where the weaknesses are.  But although it is tempting to apply rhetorical tools like that to messy human interactions and other aspects of real life events, that misapplication is unwise and often just leads to people drawing conclusions that are later shown to be incorrect.

To put "what most likely happened" in my own words, here are what seems to me to be the most likely scenarios (in VERY general terms):
1.  The rest of the band decided first of all that they wanted to reunite with Mike Portnoy, and then decided to part ways with Mike Mangini because of (the two most important words) the decision to reunite with Portnoy.  OR...
2.  Mike Mangini decided he wanted to leave, and the timing was such that it worked out for the band to decide to reunite with Mike Portnoy.  OR...
3.  The decision was initiated by the band, or was mutual, for some other reasons I haven't thought of, and the timing was such that it worked out for the band to decide to reunite with Mike Portnoy. 

I still don't have any facts suggesting that one or the other is more likely true, so if pressed, while I think "I don't know" is still the most correct answer, my opinion of the odds of each one would be about:
1.  45%
2.  45%
3.  10% (just because I don't know what this could be)

It seems like a LOT of people are all in on #1, which I don't really get.  But that's your prerogative if you fall into that category.

[emtee]

There really are numerous possible reasons for the change. And none of us know what they are.

Since we're speculating, I'll throw in my 2 guesses.

There were interpersonal relationship dynamics that were getting worse with time. Things were just not feeling and working the way that everyone felt they needed to. I think MM saying he wasn't happy with his drum sounds and not feeling as though he was a creative equal may have started to fester and cause problems.

Or, one of the members told JP, 'I'm going to do this for only X amount of years and then I'm done. And as a result of that, discussions began about the future and what it looked like, and they decided that they wanted to close out their career with Portnoy. Or somewhat similarly, someone's health is an issue and they decided the same as above due to time.

Total speculation of course.

[ReaPsTA]

Yes, it does feel more complicated than a narrative that seems on its surface to check all the boxes.  But life often (probably more often than not) is more complicated than that.  Occam's razor is a useful rhetorical tool for dissecting arguments to determine where the weaknesses are.  But although it is tempting to apply rhetorical tools like that to messy human interactions and other aspects of real life events, that misapplication is unwise and often just leads to people drawing conclusions that are later shown to be incorrect.

I think though, when there's something at work that the public doesn't know about, you tend to be able to feel the gravity of that something pulling on the events of the whole. We of course can't know with certainty. Perhaps later on a rumor will come out or someone will say something in an interview, but it feels like what's in between the lines is in between the lines and I don't feel some sort of unaccounted for force here.

Or perhaps I'm being obtuse and the fact you're trying to stress so hard it might be more mutual than it seems is the hint I'm supposed to be picking up on!

[Mosh]

There have been a lot of comparisons to Blaze Bayley and Iron Maiden, which is understandable. It feels like a similar situation - a beloved band member returns and somebody in the current group has to step down to make room for that member. There are a few key differences though, the most important of which being that Blaze Bayley was fired and that decision was made independent of bringing back Bruce Dickinson. If the reunion didn't work out, they would have continued on looking for yet another vocalist. I don't think anyone here thinks they were about to fire Mangini to replace him with someone else.

[Trav]

Or, one of the members told JP, 'I'm going to do this for only X amount of years and then I'm done. And as a result of that, discussions began about the future and what it looked like, and they decided that they wanted to close out their career with Portnoy. Or somewhat similarly, someone's health is an issue and they decided the same as above due to time.

This seems very plausible.

[gzarruk]

I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team".  All my opinions and thoughts here.

This is where I'm at too. Going by some things he said and posted on social media prior to the announcement (which I linked here before), I'm convinced he was 100% looking forward to entering the studio with the rest of the guys before all of this happened.

2. The other thing that I think makes this more mysterious is that we rarely see a band where the members transition so peacefully and with such mutual respect. It makes people question the obvious because it's been such a love fest between the Mike's on social media, which unfortunately is rare in instances like this.

I think it's more mysterious because this is night and day vs how these same guys handled the previous split in 2010 and forward

[Trav]

One in particular...

[ariich]

Good questions and discussion all around.  And despite that we initially went down a bad path earlier in the thread by some assumptions being put out there, this is why I think this type of format (discussion forum vs. typical social media platform) is VASTLY superior because we can have reasoned conversation and flesh out ideas vs. people just logging onto a platform and typing misleading one-liners and leaving it at that.

Agree so hard and a big part of why (as I've said before) I'm incredibly grateful for the way you've kept this forum going.

4. I absolutely believe that at the time of Rodrigo's interview, he knew. That's my opinion, but his disposition when Rodrigo asks about DT completely changed to me. I don't have a law career, but I do have a management career of dealing with people, and that's how I read it. I tried getting confirmation on when he was told. Twice. I couldn't get it confirmed.

Pure speculation on my part, but I think he almost surely knew.  The timing would suggest that it was at least in motion if not decided, and so would his responses.  I have a hard time reading exactly what was going on in his mind, but his demeanor did appear to change and it really looks like there is more that he wanted to say but could not.  What that is is hard to say.

My impression (for several reasons, including private discussions) is that outside the band itself this happened really very quickly and came pretty much out of the blue. But that doesn't really tell us anything about how long it might have been in train within the band and between them and MP.

[Ben_Jamin]

 

Only DTF would talk about legal matters.

As a fan I do not care. All I care about is the musical output.

Mangini had an amazing output with them, including The Astonishing. I would honestly say that album was their grand achievement. It's the album where they defined themselves and pushed the limits and went outside their expectations. It does not matter what anyone thinks.

I will forever defend how integral The Astonishing is within the DT legacy.

[Mosh]

Well, The Astonishing probably started a chain of events that has led us to this point.

[TAC]

4. I absolutely believe that at the time of Rodrigo's interview, he knew. That's my opinion, but his disposition when Rodrigo asks about DT completely changed to me. I don't have a law career, but I do have a management career of dealing with people, and that's how I read it. I tried getting confirmation on when he was told. Twice. I couldn't get it confirmed.

Pure speculation on my part, but I think he almost surely knew.  The timing would suggest that it was at least in motion if not decided, and so would his responses.  I have a hard time reading exactly what was going on in his mind, but his demeanor did appear to change and it really looks like there is more that he wanted to say but could not.  What that is is hard to say.

My impression (for several reasons, including private discussions) is that outside the band itself this happened really very quickly and came pretty much out of the blue. But that doesn't really tell us anything about how long it might have been in train within the band and between them and MP.

Years, actually. Well, MP anyway.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

Good questions and discussion all around.  And despite that we initially went down a bad path earlier in the thread by some assumptions being put out there, this is why I think this type of format (discussion forum vs. typical social media platform) is VASTLY superior because we can have reasoned conversation and flesh out ideas vs. people just logging onto a platform and typing misleading one-liners and leaving it at that.

Agree so hard and a big part of why (as I've said before) I'm incredibly grateful for the way you've kept this forum going.

I'm so glad it's still here. I went straight to DTF as soon as soon as I saw the news. One of my drummer friends from drumline in high school sent me the post. So much great insight and discussion in the last page or so, balanced by some strong voices of reason and mutual respect. Good stuff. Love it here.

  Only DTF would talk about legal matters.

I've spent like four hours in the last few days reading through this forum. I wonder how that'll sit with me on my deathbed  I love it though, seriously. I am ate up with this band. And so are you if you're here on page 22 reading this.

[Ben_Jamin]

Good questions and discussion all around.  And despite that we initially went down a bad path earlier in the thread by some assumptions being put out there, this is why I think this type of format (discussion forum vs. typical social media platform) is VASTLY superior because we can have reasoned conversation and flesh out ideas vs. people just logging onto a platform and typing misleading one-liners and leaving it at that.

Agree so hard and a big part of why (as I've said before) I'm incredibly grateful for the way you've kept this forum going.

I'm so glad it's still here. I went straight to DTF as soon as soon as I saw the news. One of my drummer friends from drumline in high school sent me the post. So much great insight and discussion in the last page or so, balanced by some strong voices of reason and mutual respect. Good stuff. Love it here.

  Only DTF would talk about legal matters.

I've spent like four hours in the last few days reading through this forum. I wonder how that'll sit with me on my deathbed  I love it though, seriously. I am ate up with this band. And so are you if you're here on page 22 reading this.

Of course. It's been a long time since this side of the forums has been this active. 

[Wim Kruithof]

Although I read the discussion with much interest, this is where I'm at; for reasons they hold by themselves, their press-release was obvious, 'they do not want to share any insight'. And I'll respect that and let all what might be, left aside.

[MoraWintersoul]

It seems like a LOT of people are all in on #1, which I don't really get.

Because Mike Mangini hasn't made any mention of him wanting to leave too in his statement, or any other comments that he made on social media. "plus I've wanted to transition into something else/do something else/take it easy for a while" is usually a statement that's accepted on its face, without any mention of any personal or private reasons why he wanted to transition into something else. He could have said that and no one would have pried into his business or his health or his loved ones or anything like that which he could plausibly be keeping secret. It wouldn't cause him any reputation loss or anyone having bad feelings about him. Instead it's all "yup, ya got Mike Portnoy back, who I love and appreciate too and I'm okay about this". And while, yes, reading too much into statements can cause a distorted look at a situation, they put out a statement to communicate what they wanted to communicate, and their collective statements communicate "Mike Mangini was let go because Dream Theater wants to reunite with Mike Portnoy", regardless of the full extent of the reasons why they want to reunite with Mike Portnoy, which is the part that's speculative.

[Trav]

It seems like a LOT of people are all in on #1, which I don't really get.

Because Mike Mangini hasn't made any mention of him wanting to leave too in his statement, or any other comments that he made on social media. "plus I've wanted to transition into something else/do something else/take it easy for a while" is usually a statement that's accepted on its face, without any mention of any personal or private reasons why he wanted to transition into something else. He could have said that and no one would have pried into his business or his health or his loved ones or anything like that which he could plausibly be keeping secret. It wouldn't cause him any reputation loss or anyone having bad feelings about him. Instead it's all "yup, ya got Mike Portnoy back, who I love and appreciate too and I'm okay about this". And while, yes, reading too much into statements can cause a distorted look at a situation, they put out a statement to communicate what they wanted to communicate, and their collective statements communicate "Mike Mangini was let go because Dream Theater wants to reunite with Mike Portnoy", regardless of the full extent of the reasons why they want to reunite with Mike Portnoy, which is the part that's speculative.

Exactly. The first sentence in Mangini's official statement is " I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time."  There ya go.  You can call it assuming or going out on a limb all you want. They wanted Portnoy in, and so Mangini had to go. There are a hundred reasons why they wanted MP back, but I guarantee that there was only 1 reason to let MM go. And that's because MP was back. I don't think anyone is assuming there was bad blood between MM and the rest of the band. Anyway, this dead horse has been beat enough.

[crystalstars17]

Anyway, this dead horse has been beat enough.

💯 At the end of the day, it's none of our business.

[The Curious Orange]

 

[TAC]

Victor posted this in the MM Thread.

New interview with MM.

https://youtu.be/Swj2fYmiQHw?si=VZr0ueqLydFVpzGy&t=420

I rest my case.

[MirrorMask]

The link ends with 420? NUGGEEETTTTTZ!!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone

[cramx3]

and blabbermouth is already running the headline with the quote

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-dream-theaters-reunion-with-mike-portnoy-a-decision-was-made-that-i-understood

[nobloodyname]

It was pretty obvious to the average human being what was likely to have happened

[gmillerdrake]

Victor posted this in the MM Thread.

New interview with MM.

https://youtu.be/Swj2fYmiQHw?si=VZr0ueqLydFVpzGy&t=420

I rest my case.

I mean....it can't be any more clear than him once again saying "A decision was made that I understood"  He was fired/let go/asked to leave/sent packing/canned/.....however you want to put it. This WAS NOT his choice. That's not speculation or interpreting something to fit a narrative.....that is what happened.

[goo-goo]

So Mike just uploaded the DT drumkits and thanking Tama for his support.

I wish he could bring back the Purple Monster.

Which kit would you like to make a comeback?

[The Letter M]

So Mike just uploaded the DT drumkits and thanking Tama for his support.

I wish he could bring back the Purple Monster.

Which kit would you like to make a comeback?

Definitely some version of his Siamese Monster with the two conjoined kits, as it's VERY DT and he hasn't done that since 2010. But honestly, given his proggier kits in the last decade, it'll probably be a single kit with double bass and no less than 6 toms. I guess it'll also depend on if they record an album first and what set-up he uses for the album.

-Marc.