Parasomnia Timeline Thread

[Wim Kruithof]

I would be very happy and excited if we were to find out that they will record and document the making of DT16 and include it as a bonus option when it's released.

same for me.

And I'll be the first one to pre-order the boxset and vinyl release, as soon is it's anounced. This next album must be a legacy-one.

[nobloodyname]

The Astonishing broke the rut an in my view was a masterpiece but will they listen to me or the haters?

Well... define 'haters'. I'm delighted John followed his muse with Jordan. But polls here consistently show The Astonishing performing poorly against the rest of their output and that appears to be reflected outside this relatively positive bubble of fandom, too.

[MirrorMask]

I just hope MP helps break the DT mold of intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-break-solo-chorus-ending.  Man that's getting old!

They've done plenty of songs like that when MP was still in the band. It's not that with MP they were doing only songs structured like Voices and Scarred, and then they started doing stuff like The Dark Eternal Night (just to quote a song I don't really like).

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't think MP is here to 'break the mold' in either song structure or drumming contribution.

[bosk1]

Agreed.  Not sure why anyone would think otherwise.

[Skeever]

Having listened to nearly every album that MP has put out in the last decade does make me wonder why anybody would think he's still interested in breaking the mold. His return re-energizes things, hopefully refreshing the sound, but that's all I'm expecting.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Having listened to nearly every album that MP has put out in the last decade does make me wonder why anybody would think he's still interested in breaking the mold. His return re-energizes things, hopefully refreshing the sound, but that's all I'm expecting.

agreed

[JRuless]

I hope that every twist in formation will end in the result ADTOE does. Refreshing. BCASL was far more worse/non progressive than TA. The latter is still one of my favorites.

[Stadler]

I don't think MP is here to 'break the mold' in either song structure or drumming contribution.

Agreed.  Not sure why anyone would think otherwise.

Having listened to nearly every album that MP has put out in the last decade does make me wonder why anybody would think he's still interested in breaking the mold. His return re-energizes things, hopefully refreshing the sound, but that's all I'm expecting.

One, those seem to imply something bad, which I don't agree with; I happen to like the "post-2010 Mike" outputs generally better than the "post-2010 DT" outputs.  Is it all cutting edge stuff that will be renowned for changing the musical landscape like The Beatles?  Of course not.   But is it emotional, sustainable and rewarding?  Yes, for me, it is.   Innocence and Danger is a top 10 all time album for me.  Amazing, start to finish.  And there are some... maybe not "mold breaking", but certainly non-transitional arrangements on there.  Flying Colors is amazing, IMO, but it's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE mold-breaking; it's meant to be a more traditional pop approach to music (I've always though "ala Asia") and it resonates accordingly. "Kayla" is just a beautiful, beautiful song, and when I listen to it, and I do, I'm not thinking "wow, if they had only done a non-traditional bridge into a cadenza into a mold-breaking repeat of the second half of the first verse..".  It's just beautiful as it is.  I do remember when the song titled were released with the appropriate times for the songs, and a whole group of morons sorry, fans, IMMEDIATELY said "Whoa!!! Blue Ocean and Infinite Fire are going to be AWESOME!!!" without even hearing them.  WTF?   For the uninitiated, "Yesterday" is 2:07, and "Revolution 9" is 8:21 (their longest song).  Anyone think "Revolution 9" is "awesome" these days?

But two, I think we're selling him short. Maybe "mold-breaking" is too aggressive, but Mike's certainly not stuck in "verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-solo-chorus" mode.   The Absolute Universe - in any of its iterations - is non-traditional in it's nature.  The two-CD I&D is fairly mixed in it's approach, with both traditional song structures, modified traditional song structures, and progressive song structures.

Regardless, I'm not, at 30 years in, interested in "mold-breaking".  I am interested in enjoying the music.  I want the music to be, for lack of a better word, "fun" or "enjoyable", and in terms of the last 12 years, there's a lot of room for joy and resonance, IMO, to be added to the DT outputs. 

[bosk1]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

[Jamesman42]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

[Stadler]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music.  I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world record of most paradiddles in 30 seconds or whatever. 

[bosk1]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music.  I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever. 

No, that isn't what we were saying.  The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.

But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up.  To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said.  He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen.  But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.

[Lonk]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

That's what was implied, yes.

[Stadler]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music.  I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever. 

No, that isn't what we were saying.  The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.

But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up.  To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said.  He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen.  But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.

Oh, I'm with you on that.  I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also.  But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. 

[Samsara]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

That's what was implied, yes.

I can only imagine how MP must feel, finally sitting down to write Dream Theater songs again with his friends. Has to be a very cool feeling.

[MirrorMask]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

That's what was implied, yes.

I can only imagine how MP must feel, finally sitting down to write Dream Theater songs again with his friends. Has to be a very cool feeling.

So true! you just have to imagine the hugs and the big smiles on everyone's faces.

[Trav]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

That's what was implied, yes.

Where?

[jammindude]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

That's what was implied, yes.

Where?

Presumably DTHQ

[gzarruk]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

That's what was implied, yes.

Where?

Both Jordan and Mike P have uploaded stories from their houses today, so I guess they'll probably get to the studio later this week.

[Lonk]

Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?

That's what was implied, yes.

Where?

Interviews. A week and a half ago JP said they would enter the studio " in less than 2 weeks", so the assumption is that it meant today. Of course we know nothing, so it could be at any point this week.

[HOF]

Mike posted this on 1/31, which was 5 days ago now. Feels like it would be this week sometime or he would have said "in a few weeks" rather than "a few days," but the parsing machine might be owed some overtime here.

On FB, Mike just posted a weird video of the band members faces morphing from one to another all Michael Jackson "Black or White" style, with the caption:

"Hard to believe that in just a few days, these 5 gentlemen will reunite to begin work on our first album together in almost 15 years!"

https://www.facebook.com/100044540401846/posts/935087047985967/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music.  I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever. 

No, that isn't what we were saying.  The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.

But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up.  To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said.  He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen.  But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.

Oh, I'm with you on that.  I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also.  But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. 

***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***

It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.

At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/

Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.

[bosk1]

I don't disagree with anything you are saying.  But the fact of the matter is that most (or, at least, a LOT) of the people who raise the criticism that he "doesn't practice" aren't making the distinction you are making, and mean that they think he literally does not practice at all, which is not accurate.  For those who understand the issue, like yourself, and make the criticism that you are making, that's fair.  But those implying that he does not practice at all are assuming something that is just not correct at all.  I have some problems with some things Mike Portnoy has said and done over the years (I just don't air them here), so I am not one to just give him a carte blanche pass on anything and everything.  But that doesn't mean I don't object to unfair criticisms, and I think the "he doesn't practice" one is an unfair criticism because it mischaracterizes what he said/meant.

Anyhow, now I think I'm rambling.  But just wanted to make sure I was making my point.  Good post, TBW.  Carry on.

[Setlist Scotty]

Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.

Interesting post in general, but one thing I do want to point out is that while it has lessened over time, it's not entirely true that MM is the only one singled out in this manner. Ever so often even now, criticism about JR in comparison to his predecessors (especially KM) does come up in a similar way - not that his way is robotic but is lacking feel or is him over-playing and throwing in various unnecessary things such as the circus bits and whatnot.

[Sycsa]

Portnoy coming back is definitely a trade-off, drumming wise.

We can expect a pleasant, prominent drum sound, toms resonating beautifully, a cracking snare, well-defined cymbals. MM often had flat toms, weird snare sound, wishy-washy weak cymbals. I'm not addressing the kick sound because that's often dialed in during post-production.

As for the playing, MP has a great feel for the music, I fully expect some groovy rhythms, tasty fills. I expect that he'll give it his all and will make a statement, "MP is back in town!".

What I don't expect is being caught off guard. Something Mangini was regularly able to pull off with an interesting fill, pattern or blast beat out of left field. I don't have too much of a problem with Portnoy "not practicing", playing so much with so many different musicians, he's bound to pick up/develop a new trick or two here and there. It's only jarring when I recognize a fill or pattern from another song. I hope MP will make a conscious effort to avoid that. At the end of the day, drums won't make or break the album, it's still up to JP/JR to write those melodies which MP will hopefully greatly enhance with his contribution.

[nikatapi]

Portnoy coming back is definitely a trade-off, drumming wise.

We can expect a pleasant, prominent drum sound, toms resonating beautifully, a cracking snare, well-defined cymbals. MM often had flat toms, weird snare sound, wishy-washy weak cymbals. I'm not addressing the kick sound because that's often dialed in during post-production.

As for the playing, MP has a great feel for the music, I fully expect some groovy rhythms, tasty fills. I expect that he'll give it his all and will make a statement, "MP is back in town!".

What I don't expect is being caught off guard. Something Mangini was regularly able to pull off with an interesting fill, pattern or blast beat out of left field. I don't have too much of a problem with Portnoy "not practicing", playing so much with so many different musicians, he's bound to pick up/develop a new trick or two here and there. It's only jarring when I recognize a fill or pattern from another song. I hope MP will make a conscious effort to avoid that. At the end of the day, drums won't make or break the album, it's still up to JP/JR to write those melodies which MP will hopefully greatly enhance with is contribution.

Great post. I feel like the sonic choices that JP (as the producer) made, and probably the fact that MM went along with it, created a lot of the criticisms around MM's style and playing. Lots of details and dynamics lost because of production choices in my opinion.

On the other hand, my personal feeling is that after SDOIT, MP has been very stale in terms of creativity and the element of surprise in his drumming. He's happy to use the same "bag of tricks", and probably most of the people enjoy this signature sound. To me, it has become very very predictable, as was the case with almost all the post-DT albums he was involved in. But there's little to no surprise

[Dream Team]

Nice posts by BarstoolWarrior and Sycsa. I'm interested in hearing responses as to why Mangini is the only one being singled out as robotic? It was a great point.

[Indiscipline]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music.  I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever. 

No, that isn't what we were saying.  The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.

But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up.  To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said.  He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen.  But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.

Oh, I'm with you on that.  I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also.  But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. 

***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***

It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.

At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/

Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.

Great post, and it holds a great lesson (or at least I'm reading it that way):

There's no need to mischaracterise MP as lazy-sloppy in order to praise MM's approach, and there's no need to mischaracterise MM's as unpersonal-robotic in order to praise MP's style.

[Stadler]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music.  I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever. 

No, that isn't what we were saying.  The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.

But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up.  To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said.  He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen.  But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.

Oh, I'm with you on that.  I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also.  But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. 

***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***

It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.

At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/

Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.

All of that is well and good.  Sure, no argument, since it's all your opinion.   

But, it's all your opinion. And by that I mean, there are no right answers, and no "better" or "worse".  I grew up playing sports. Team sports.  Soccer, hockey and baseball. I also played in bands since high school, up to about five years ago or so.   And then when I got to working age, I did construction.   Then I went to corporate America, where I still am, 30-some-odd years later.   Want to know what the one constant theme in all that is?  TEAMWORK.  Not just working together, but the FORMING and MAINTAINING of teams.  It's an art.  If anyone could do it, then the Toronto Maple Leafs wouldn't be waiting 57 years (and counting) for their next Stanley Cup.  The Arizona Cardinals wouldn't be watching the Super Bowl from home YET AGAIN.  Ground Zero (my first band) would be touring stadia.   Etc. Etc.  Know what the cardinal rule is for forming teams?   Fill needs.  DO NOT HIRE YOURSELF OVER AND OVER. Fill needs.  Every great band isn't - and can't be - five identical clones who all whiz on their instruments to the detriment of everyone else.   Every great band has a JP.  U2: Edge.  Stones: Keith.  Zeppelin: JPJ.   Floyd: Gilmour.   Genesis:  Banks.  Maiden: Harris. Van Halen: Eddie.   Every great band has a MP.   U2: Bono.   Stones:  Jagger.   Zeppelin:  Page.   Genesis:  Rutherford, maybe Collins (they split duties).  Maiden: Dickinson.  Floyd:  Waters, Mason (they split duties).  Van Halen:  Roth, Alex (they split duties).

You keep lauding the Mangini era records and slagging the "last couple" from the MP era.  FOR ME - and many like me - the Mangini era records are very good, not great, and FOR ME, there is always a moment - ALWAYS, on all five of them - where I go, "this is really good, but it's missing something".   I've repeatedly recognized Mangini's technical skill.  I've also, kindly and with respect, acknowledged that it is like watching someone who knows how to weld.  Impressive, but not emotionally resonant to me (I'm sure there is a YouTube channel somewhere where people can watch other people weld, but that's not for me). Last time I spoke with Mike Portnoy, all I said was "after all these years, it's still a treat, a joy, to watch you play."   Like many here, I've seen Mike play more than any other artist (it's not close) and I can only name ONE TIME - ONCE - where I thought "he fucked up; he made a mistake".  It was the NMB tour at Sony Hall, and he was doing a back-and-forth with Randy, and I think he dropped a beat.  Lo and behold, the next night, in Boston, he did something similar, but not identical, and later I found out that he and Randy would fuck with each other during that segment and (I'm guessing; I'm a guitar player not a drummer) maybe Randy got one on him that first night, and Mike answered the second.  That's hardly a "mistake" for me; that's real playing, that's real musicians in the moment.  I LIVE for those moments in concerts.  THAT'S what I want more of, not more double bass drum beats (of which there are more on each Mangini DT record than there are in some bands entire catalogues).  Not a dig, just an observation, and not where I'm interested in seeing more.

[Stadler]

Nice posts by BarstoolWarrior and Sycsa. I'm interested in hearing responses as to why Mangini is the only one being singled out as robotic? It was a great point.

One, I'm not "singling out" Mangini as being robotic.  I am, though, saying the band dynamic was different and maybe not necessarily for the better.

I've written this all the way back to 2010 over at Mike's forum:  the locker room is important, and I think with Mangini the locker room dynamic changed a bit and not for the better.   Maybe if, instead of Portnoy coming back, they got a different bass player or keyboard player to re-create the artistic tension of the 1992-2010 years.  Sure, but that's not what happened; they swapped out drummers, and so that's what we are faced with. 

[emtee]

In defense of MP, he has stated in the past that he felt significant pressure to constantly having to outdo each previous recorded performance. He was all over the covers of drum magazines, winning award after award, and at some point he felt like he needed to be at peace with just giving his best and letting go of the pressure.

A significant time has passed though since his last recording with DT and I have a feeling he is going to dig deep and surprise us.

[Stadler]

Portnoy coming back is definitely a trade-off, drumming wise.

We can expect a pleasant, prominent drum sound, toms resonating beautifully, a cracking snare, well-defined cymbals. MM often had flat toms, weird snare sound, wishy-washy weak cymbals. I'm not addressing the kick sound because that's often dialed in during post-production.

As for the playing, MP has a great feel for the music, I fully expect some groovy rhythms, tasty fills. I expect that he'll give it his all and will make a statement, "MP is back in town!".

What I don't expect is being caught off guard. Something Mangini was regularly able to pull off with an interesting fill, pattern or blast beat out of left field. I don't have too much of a problem with Portnoy "not practicing", playing so much with so many different musicians, he's bound to pick up/develop a new trick or two here and there. It's only jarring when I recognize a fill or pattern from another song. I hope MP will make a conscious effort to avoid that. At the end of the day, drums won't make or break the album, it's still up to JP/JR to write those melodies which MP will hopefully greatly enhance with is contribution.

Great post. I feel like the sonic choices that JP (as the producer) made, and probably the fact that MM went along with it, created a lot of the criticisms around MM's style and playing. Lots of details and dynamics lost because of production choices in my opinion.

On the other hand, my personal feeling is that after SDOIT, MP has been very stale in terms of creativity and the element of surprise in his drumming. He's happy to use the same "bag of tricks", and probably most of the people enjoy this signature sound. To me, it has become very very predictable, as was the case with almost all the post-DT albums he was involved in. But there's little to no surprise

Part of that dynamic is maybe not having a drummer that just "went along with it".  I don't know, and I'm not criticizing Mangini, I'm just making an observation about what I wrote above about "locker room".   

As for Portnoy, it's only predictable if you're counting paradiddles or some shit (I don't know the terminology) or time signatures, which I don't give a rat's ass about.  I have not once ever thought "wow that was really predictable".  Sure, I've noticed once in a while a fill that is reminiscent - or the same - as one I've heard before, but duh, it's not like every single Eddie Van Halen solo was like DNA, precisely unique.  I DO know that there are more moments in the Portnoy catalogue like "The Storm", by Flying Colors, where I still to this day think "that drum part MAKES THE ENTIRE SONG."  The part where he's hitting the snare repeatedly while Casey sings of the "storm", then switches the beat when the lyric talks of the pain washing away...... just absolutely beautiful and one of my favorite moments in music, ever.   I got chills seeing it live.  THAT'S what music is about for some of us.  Each of my Mt. Rushmore drummers (Bonham, Collins, Peart, Portnoy) has at least one of those moments.   I can't name one moment - not one - like that on the five DT records with Mangini. Not a knock; 99% of all drummers don't have a moment like that. 

I saw one of those moments TWICE with Mike and John live on John's solo tour.  I can't wait, frankly (and I honestly hope I'm not getting TOO excited).

[emtee]

Gonna throw something else in the mix that sort of piggybacks off Stads take; MP has a "cool" X-factor about him when you see him live. He makes things so effing fun to watch. He can be in the middle of a very complicated part, then he reaches up and swings the boom mic stand and commences to sing while playing the complicated part, then he sends a signal to the soundboard guy about an issue of some kind by crisscrossing his sticks...and never misses a beat. In my view, he elevated every show to next lever for me.

[gborland]

We need a drummer who has the confidence and authority to push back against JP and JR from time to time. MM, despite his technical brilliance, was not that drummer.