How many "epics" does Dream Theater have?

[bosk1]

Inspired by a comment I saw in a thread about AVFFTOTW along the lines of there not being many "epics" to compare it to, which I thought was silly.  A lot of times, when we discuss DT "epics," we are talking about what I call the "mega-epics" (see thread here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53591.0).  But most of us recognize that a lot of DT's other songs are "epics" as well.  The thing is, there aren't set criteria for what makes a song an epic or not.  Song length is a big factor, but plenty of songs in the world that are under 10 minutes are widely considered "epics."  The "feel" of a song can be a big factor.  Whether it tells a story...  What the band intends...  Etc.

So, as to the poll question, how many DT songs would you consider "epics?"  Feel free to list them, discuss, and debate.

Personally, I chose the >20 option.  But there are a number of songs I am undecided about, and that changes from time to time.

[ReaPsTA]

Seven or less.

I know what bosk is saying about the term not exactly being a fixed thing. To me Six Degrees doesn't feel that epic. The Ministry of Lost Souls feels more epic to me than The Count of Tuscany.

But if words become too flexible in definition they become meaningless. If "epic" means any song that's like over ten minutes and feels very big, then you have to come up with another term like 'mega epic' to specifically refer to the ~20+ minute songs. Creating over-complicated language like this only makes it harder to understand for out-group people who don't understand the in-group lingo. Sucky situation for any new people who register, and I do see them pop up!

[RAIN]

I'm over 20.  Just sorted all DT songs and looked for how many are over 10 minutes, so it's way over 20.  For me, one of my favourite songs is A Nightmare to Remember, and that's 16 minutes of epicness.
If it wasn't DT, then any band/musician with a 7 minute song would be considered an epic. VH was considered to have A Year to the Day, and Cabo Wabo...all much shorter.  It's all relative.

[HOF]

7-12 minutes = unusually long song but not an epic

13-18 = mini-epic

Over 18 minutes = epic

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[svisser]

I find a lot of DT songs fans call "epics" are just long songs with extended solos. When I think epic, I think of Metropolis pt. 1, Home, In The Name Of God. Stuff that really changes up the flow of the song into sections. So songs like Endless Sacrifice or Awaken The Master don't really seem like epics. They are just long songs with cool solo sections.

[bosk1]

But if words become too flexible in definition they become meaningless.

I fully agree with that sentiment.  But the problem is that "epic" in this context is not firmly defined.  And it isn't a word that applies strictly to Dream Theater, nor was it coined to refer to their songs.  Songs like Bohemian Rhapsody or Queensryche's Anybody Listening? are considered by many to be "epics," and those are WELL short of the 20-minute mark and do not have clearly-defined, separate parts.

[ReaPsTA]

But if words become too flexible in definition they become meaningless.

I fully agree with that sentiment.  But the problem is that "epic" in this context is not firmly defined.  And it isn't a word that applies strictly to Dream Theater, nor was it coined to refer to their songs.  Songs like Bohemian Rhapsody or Queensryche's Anybody Listening? are considered by many to be "epics," and those are WELL short of the 20-minute mark and do not have clearly-defined, separate parts.

True. Maybe I'm thinking insularly by only using DT's song lengths as a point of reference.

[TheCountOfNYC]

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

Those are the epics as far as I'm concerned. The three minute runtime gap between The Count of Tuscany and A Nightmare to Remember (the next longest Dream Theater song) makes a nice divide between what is and isn't an epic.

[The Letter M]

I voted seven (or less), for the songs that are specifically the kind of epics that are Side-Length epics, the ones that were pioneered in the 70s by bands like Genesis, Rush, Yes, etc., with songs like "Supper's Ready", "2112" and "Close To The Edge".

There are longer songs, for sure, like "In The Name Of God", "The Ministry of Lost Souls", "A Nightmare To Remember", and "Breaking All Illusions" which have epic feels to them, but I'd say they're just longer songs in general, but because the band have so many of those 10-18 minute songs, it would feel disingenuous to the longer epics to call all of those songs epics as well and place them in the same category as ACOS, SDOIT, 8VM, etc.

Now, for other bands who don't have as many Side-Length Epics, like Big Big Train, I'd say their songs that are in the 10-18 minute range are definitely epics, especially given their epic narratives and structures. It's really all relative to a band and their output, but in the case of Dream Theater, I'd say it's just the seven that most of us have commonly agreed to calling epic. Now, if you go album-by-album, you could probably call a song like "In The Name Of God" the album's epic, being the longest song, and also the closing song (where many epics tend to be placed in prog albums). The same could be said for songs like "Trial Of Tears" and "Learning To Live".

-Marc.

[Kotowboy]

NONE!!!! THEYRE ALL SH*T !!! 


I vote for

A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees
Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies I,II
The Count Of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View From The Top Of The World.

And my obligatory ranking

Octavarium
Six Degrees
A View From The Top
The Count Of Tuscany. Ah Ah Ah !
Illumination Theory
Presence of Enemies I, II In that order
A Change Of Seasons

[Setlist Scotty]

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

Those are the epics as far as I'm concerned. The three minute runtime gap between The Count of Tuscany and A Nightmare to Remember (the next longest Dream Theater song) makes a nice divide between what is and isn't an epic.

Exactly this.

[Another_Won]

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

Those are the epics as far as I'm concerned. The three minute runtime gap between The Count of Tuscany and A Nightmare to Remember (the next longest Dream Theater song) makes a nice divide between what is and isn't an epic.

Exactly this.

I get the 20 minute thing but how can we NOT call Metropolis, Pt. 1 an epic?  So epic, it spawned a whole album. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6ISFr8xoLI

MP is asked about epics and gives his own personal definition at 5:06. I find I more or less agree with him though the way I voted earlier in the day does not reflect this. His criteria:

1. exceed 8min mark (preferably 10-12m)
2. peaks and valleys (twists and turns)
3. defies traditional musical arrangements

I go with MP's definition that really opens it up and causes a lot of brain damage give DT's catalogue lol.

[Setlist Scotty]

But if words become too flexible in definition they become meaningless.

I fully agree with that sentiment.  But the problem is that "epic" in this context is not firmly defined.  And it isn't a word that applies strictly to Dream Theater, nor was it coined to refer to their songs.  Songs like Bohemian Rhapsody or Queensryche's Anybody Listening? are considered by many to be "epics," and those are WELL short of the 20-minute mark and do not have clearly-defined, separate parts.

I would question your point about Bohemian Rhapsody not having clearly-defined separate parts, but whatever.

I'm not super familiar with Queen's full catalog, but I know in the case of QR, they don't have any 20-minute songs. So I think when it comes to bands/artists that don't have lengthy compositions, it's more likely for fans of those bands/artists to state that some of their songs are epic even though they fall far short of the 20-minute (or so) mark.

However, that's not the case for DT, Yes, Rush, Genesis and several others that are in the prog genre (both rock and metal). So at least for these bands, it makes the most sense to say that songs roughly 20 minutes or more would be epics. I'd go so far as to say anything at least 18 minutes in length usually is an epic. Songs that range in the 10-17 minute mark I would refer to as semi-epics.

As an example, Rush's epics are considered to be The Fountain of Lamneth, 2112 and Hemispheres. I don't think there are many fans that would call songs like By-Tor and the Snow Dog, The Necromancer, Xanadu, Cygnus X-1, La Villa Strangiato, Natural Science or The Camera Eye epics despite the fact that they are all in the 8-13 minute range and some are even subdivided. I'd imagine the same is true for those other bands, although you'd have to ask someone more intimate with their catalogs give a definitive answer.

[Kotowboy]

I just hope that DT do the +/- 20 min song every so often and never do the 1 x 80 min song album.

Basically I wouldn't want 12 Degrees of Inner Turbulence : 80:00

Unless it had 12 selectable "movements".

1 track 80 min song ? No thanks.

[Kotowboy]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

[DTiwbwMP]

7-12 minutes = Long song but not an epic

13-15 = mini-epic

16-19 epic

Over 20 minutes = EPIC!!!!!


There are MANY "epic" songs that don't fit into a "time" criteria. Bo-rap being the most obvious. I mean, THAT SONG is the essence of EPICNESS!

[IDontNotDoThings]

I think "epic" is relative to the artist, but with DT I'm content with limiting it to the big 7.

[Setlist Scotty]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

According to iTunes, 2:56:38

[Kotowboy]

Yes not far off from my calculations

[KevShmev]

I don't think epic is necessarily defined by length.  No one will convince me that songs like Metropolis, Learning to Live and Scarred aren't epic.

[Kram]

For me an "epic" needs to take you on a musical journey, and be at least as long as to take up a whole side of a vinyl LP.  So I voted for 7 or less.

[Kotowboy]

I don't think epic is necessarily defined by length.  No one will convince me that songs like Metropolis, Learning to Live and Scarred aren't epic.

Personally I think The Answer is EPIC 

[krands85]

In the Presence of Enemies
Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
A View from the Top of the World
The Count of Tuscany

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Is a concept album necessarily an epic?

[devieira73]

By the way, we can consider A Mind Beside Itself one of DT's epics or not?

[KevShmev]

By the way, we can consider A Mind Beside Itself one of DT's epics or not?

A suite can be considered epic, sure, so I would say yes.  I know most do not consider it a single song, so I do not bother fighting that fight anymore, but if it were considered a single song ("IF!!), it would be my number 1 DT song. 

[Another_Won]

By the way, we can consider A Mind Beside Itself one of DT's epics or not?

A suite can be considered epic, sure, so I would say yes.  I know most do not consider it a single song, so I do not bother fighting that fight anymore, but if it were considered a single song ("IF!!), it would be my number 1 DT song.

Yes, this one is an epic to me too.  Over 20 minutes.  I may be close to deciding on how I'll vote on this poll . . .

[devieira73]

It would be between my favorites also! It's interesting, at the time of release, I had the impression that DT choose Erotomania/Voices/Silent Man as the epic of Awake instead ACoS because it was the one most recently composed.

[Setlist Scotty]

By the way, we can consider A Mind Beside Itself one of DT's epics or not?

A suite can be considered epic, sure, so I would say yes.  I know most do not consider it a single song, so I do not bother fighting that fight anymore, but if it were considered a single song ("IF!!), it would be my number 1 DT song.

Your post just reminded me: waaaaaay back in 1997 when I first went over all of DT's setlists with MP on the phone (the start of the tourography), he *always* specified "A Mind Beside Itself", not "Erotomania, Voices, The Silent Man". So he definitely viewed them as a whole, although I don't know if as a suite or as a true epic. I tend to assume as a suite judging by the way they're labeled on the packaging in comparison to the title track of SDoIT which is tracked but he always described it as an epic song. Then again, I could be completely wrong.

[KevShmev]

Every DT fan I knew back in the 90s (and there were a bunch) considered A Mind Beside Itself to be one song.  It was only when I got online and saw some saying it wasn't that I heard anybody say that it wasn't.  And now it seems to be widely thought that it is three songs that comprise a suite, yet eight songs that comprise a suite on Six Degrees is apparently one song and A Mind Beside Itself isn't. I don't get it, but whatever. 

[devieira73]

Yes, go figure!

[devieira73]

But, In 6 Degrees defense, it does have a lot more recurring themes than A Mind Beside Itself.

[devieira73]

By the way, we can consider A Mind Beside Itself one of DT's epics or not?

A suite can be considered epic, sure, so I would say yes.  I know most do not consider it a single song, so I do not bother fighting that fight anymore, but if it were considered a single song ("IF!!), it would be my number 1 DT song.

Your post just reminded me: waaaaaay back in 1997 when I first went over all of DT's setlists with MP on the phone (the start of the tourography), he *always* specified "A Mind Beside Itself", not "Erotomania, Voices, The Silent Man". So he definitely viewed them as a whole, although I don't know if as a suite or as a true epic. I tend to assume as a suite judging by the way they're labeled on the packaging in comparison to the title track of SDoIT which is tracked but he always described it as an epic song. Then again, I could be completely wrong.

Maybe this happened because DT wanted to release a big epic and didn't want to fight again with the label? I'm thinking about the previous experience of the label denying to include ACoS on I&W. So they kind of disguised it in a suite of 3 songs.

[bosk1]

Is a concept album necessarily an epic?

For purposes of this thread, no.  Because this thread is using the term as a noun, which, in music, generally refers to songs, not albums.  But you certainly could describe albums as being epic (adj).  E.g., "SFAM is pretty epic."  "Or SFAM is an epic album."  But not "SFAM is an epic."