How many "epics" does Dream Theater have?

[gzarruk]

The way I see 6DOIT turbulence being one song is, if it wasn't one song, the entire meta albums concept would not be possible. 6 Degrees has 6 songs, ToT has 7, and 8vm has 8.

Also, SC has 7 and BC&SL has 6

[jammindude]

Man, if ADTOE would've had 12 tracks like SFAM, that would have been NUGGETZ!!!

[Stadler]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

Could you imagine if they did "En Evening With" tour and this was the set-list?  Talk about epic..

Set 1:
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count Of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

Set 2:
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
A View From The Top Of The World
Octavarium

Encore:
A Change Of Seasons

It would be an amazing concert for sure. A 3CD album with just 7 songs... who are they, Transatlantic??

-Marc.

I want to revisit this idea as I think they should consider it.  Call it "An Evening with Dream Theater: The Epics"  Would be highly attended IMO.  We could play with the running order, but would be the most amazing show if you ask me.

I remember being on the Genesis forum years ago, when they were first sort of mooting a return of Peter - I think it was around the time of the Archive sets - and there was a small contingent of people saying that a Lamb tour would set attendance records.  Um... Genesis was touring stadiums at that point with NO album release; there was no way in hell they were filling a stadium to hear "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" in it's entirety.   For every "superfan" that would go to see that, there were nine casual fans (and their partners) that were staying home.  Genesis plays "That's All" and "Land Of Confusion" because people react to them, not to spite the older fans.

I don't think it's quite the same here, necessarily, but I don't see them getting any significant bump from a special setlist like that, I really don't.

[ZirconBlue]

6 Degrees is, canonically, one song, but  this snippet from MP's quote: "which I kind of view as a mini-concept record", is more in line with how I personally regard it.  But, that's just my own head-canon. 

[Kram]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

Could you imagine if they did "En Evening With" tour and this was the set-list?  Talk about epic..

Set 1:
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count Of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

Set 2:
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
A View From The Top Of The World
Octavarium

Encore:
A Change Of Seasons

It would be an amazing concert for sure. A 3CD album with just 7 songs... who are they, Transatlantic??

-Marc.

I want to revisit this idea as I think they should consider it.  Call it "An Evening with Dream Theater: The Epics"  Would be highly attended IMO.  We could play with the running order, but would be the most amazing show if you ask me.

I remember being on the Genesis forum years ago, when they were first sort of mooting a return of Peter - I think it was around the time of the Archive sets - and there was a small contingent of people saying that a Lamb tour would set attendance records.  Um... Genesis was touring stadiums at that point with NO album release; there was no way in hell they were filling a stadium to hear "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" in it's entirety.   For every "superfan" that would go to see that, there were nine casual fans (and their partners) that were staying home.  Genesis plays "That's All" and "Land Of Confusion" because people react to them, not to spite the older fans.

I don't think it's quite the same here, necessarily, but I don't see them getting any significant bump from a special setlist like that, I really don't.

Maybe not, but I still think it's a cool idea. It sounds like something Neal Morse and Mike would do honestly.  I doubt it would happen with JP doing the setlists anyway.  It's just something for us to geek out on here.

[bosk1]

Yeah, if Portnoy was still in the band, I could see him maybe pushing for it to happen on 1 night or a small handful of nights on a tour, but not as a whole tour itself.  But I don't see anyone else in the band being in love with the idea, so I don't see it happening. 

[Stadler]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

Could you imagine if they did "En Evening With" tour and this was the set-list?  Talk about epic..

Set 1:
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count Of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

Set 2:
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
A View From The Top Of The World
Octavarium

Encore:
A Change Of Seasons

It would be an amazing concert for sure. A 3CD album with just 7 songs... who are they, Transatlantic??

-Marc.

I want to revisit this idea as I think they should consider it.  Call it "An Evening with Dream Theater: The Epics"  Would be highly attended IMO.  We could play with the running order, but would be the most amazing show if you ask me.

I remember being on the Genesis forum years ago, when they were first sort of mooting a return of Peter - I think it was around the time of the Archive sets - and there was a small contingent of people saying that a Lamb tour would set attendance records.  Um... Genesis was touring stadiums at that point with NO album release; there was no way in hell they were filling a stadium to hear "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" in it's entirety.   For every "superfan" that would go to see that, there were nine casual fans (and their partners) that were staying home.  Genesis plays "That's All" and "Land Of Confusion" because people react to them, not to spite the older fans.

I don't think it's quite the same here, necessarily, but I don't see them getting any significant bump from a special setlist like that, I really don't.

Maybe not, but I still think it's a cool idea. It sounds like something Neal Morse and Mike would do honestly.  I doubt it would happen with JP doing the setlists anyway.  It's just something for us to geek out on here.

Well, if it matters to you, I think it's cool too.   I saw the Shattered Fortress show at Irving Plaza and it felt SPECIAL even if it wasn't, say, what I would expect for a full tour.  I'm with you.

[bosk1]

I couldn't really travel, but would have enjoyed seeing one of those shows if it had worked out.  I remember watching it and thinking it was cool (can't remember if it was a limited stream, or if someone just bootleg posted it, or what), but still not the same as being there, obviously. 

[Kram]

Yeah, if Portnoy was still in the band, I could see him maybe pushing for it to happen on 1 night or a small handful of nights on a tour, but not as a whole tour itself.  But I don't see anyone else in the band being in love with the idea, so I don't see it happening.

Agreed.  I just hope to one day see them play Octavarium.  That's probably my biggest DT "wish" at this point.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Yeah, if Portnoy was still in the band, I could see him maybe pushing for it to happen on 1 night or a small handful of nights on a tour, but not as a whole tour itself.  But I don't see anyone else in the band being in love with the idea, so I don't see it happening.

Agreed.  I just hope to one day see them play Octavarium.  That's probably my biggest DT "wish" at this point.

I genuinely can't believe Octavarium or The Glass Prison haven't made their way back into a setlist yet. These are two of the most beloved songs in their entire discography and neither has made their way into a set since 2006.

[WilliamMunny]

Yeah, if Portnoy was still in the band, I could see him maybe pushing for it to happen on 1 night or a small handful of nights on a tour, but not as a whole tour itself.  But I don't see anyone else in the band being in love with the idea, so I don't see it happening.

Agreed.  I just hope to one day see them play Octavarium.  That's probably my biggest DT "wish" at this point.

I genuinely can't believe Octavarium or The Glass Prison haven't made their way back into a setlist yet. These are two of the most beloved songs in their entire discography and neither has made their way into a set since 2006.

Wow... that's kinda blowing my mind.

8VM is my favorite DT song, and possibly my favorite piece of music ever. I saw them perform it live on the Score tour, and never in a million years would I have guessed that it would take 15 plus years for it to (possibly) resurface in the set.

[KevShmev]

That is likely the result of the band post-Portnoy not doing medleys (which is good) AND doing mostly static set lists (which isn't as good). 

[425]

And now the band seems to be moving away from evening with tours, which further reduces the number of songs, especially long songs, that get performed. There may very well be a number of songs that have been performed for the last time that we wouldn't expect to fall into that category (not saying Octavarium is among them).

[Dublagent66]

That's another reason I didn't go to the show on this tour because I don't want to see anyone opening for DT.  It cuts too much into the setlist.

[gzarruk]

I think OVM has a chance of making it back to the setlists for the next tour, which would be that track/album's 20th anniversary
I would've prefered they played it this tour as the encore, though, since they're already doing the two 20 min epics thing anyway.

[hefdaddy42]

The way I see 6DOIT turbulence being one song is, if it wasn't one song, the entire meta albums concept would not be possible. 6 Degrees has 6 songs, ToT has 7, and 8vm has 8.

Also, SC has 7 and BC&SL has 6

But those were not part of the meta album.

[bosk1]

The way I see 6DOIT turbulence being one song is, if it wasn't one song, the entire meta albums concept would not be possible. 6 Degrees has 6 songs, ToT has 7, and 8vm has 8.

Also, SC has 7 and BC&SL has 6

But those were not part of the meta album.

And also, the number of tracks has nothing to do with the "meta album" concept.  It's just an interesting, coincidental nugget.

[Kram]

I think OVM has a chance of making it back to the setlists for the next tour, which would be that track/album's 20th anniversary
I would've prefered they played it this tour as the encore, though, since they're already doing the two 20 min epics thing anyway.

Yeah, if you can play TCOT as an encore, you can play Octavarium (which many, myself included, would unquestionably say is one of their best songs)

[TheCountOfNYC]

The problem is that every Octavarium ten year milestone is also a Dream Theater ten year milestone, and they may prefer to do a career-spanning commemorative tour instead of focusing on one album outside of their big four. I think they'll do a DT40 tour in three years, and if Octavarium isn't in the set, it probably never will be.

[bosk1]

I'm pretty confident Octavarium will be played eventually.  It's just a question of when, not if.

[425]

After ACoS came back for the 2017 tour, I too am sure that Octavarium will be played again. It's probably the song I'm third-most certain will be played again at some point after this tour is over, after Pull Me Under and Metropolis.

[ZirconBlue]

That's another reason I didn't go to the show on this tour because I don't want to see anyone opening for DT.  It cuts too much into the setlist.

The shorter shows are going to be easier on JLB's voice, so I'm honestly hoping they stick with them going forward. 

[hefdaddy42]

The way I see 6DOIT turbulence being one song is, if it wasn't one song, the entire meta albums concept would not be possible. 6 Degrees has 6 songs, ToT has 7, and 8vm has 8.

Also, SC has 7 and BC&SL has 6

But those were not part of the meta album.

And also, the number of tracks has nothing to do with the "meta album" concept.  It's just an interesting, coincidental nugget.

You're right.  I was only focusing on the one element in the post, instead of the totality of it.

[Cool Chris]

I have no understanding of what this whole "meta album" is, nor do I want to.

[jammindude]

I have no understanding of what this whole "meta album" is, nor do I want to.

Tough...because I'm going to explain it anyway. 

It's what some people call the SFAM-8V run because each album starts where the last one ended. Making it sortof like one big long "four album long" album. Thus...meta album.

[Stadler]

I did an "epic" listening over the last couple days.  My ranking:

1. Octavairum
2. Six Degrees
3. In The Presence Of Enemies
4. Illumination Theory
5. A View From The Top Of The World
6. A Change Of Seasons
7. The Count Of Tuscany

A ranking here is misleading.  The first two are a cut above, but it's not like any of the last five "suck", they just all have things that I like and don't like, moreseo than the first two.  For example, the MUSIC in TCOT is amazing; the lyrics and the melody lines leave something to be desired.   AVFTTOTW is excellent - I don't even mind the ending - but the same criticisms I have of the album are here (though this is the second best song on the record for me). 

[Trav]

I did an "epic" listening over the last couple days.  My ranking:

1. Octavairum
2. Six Degrees
3. In The Presence Of Enemies
4. Illumination Theory
5. A View From The Top Of The World
6. A Change Of Seasons
7. The Count Of Tuscany

A ranking here is misleading.  The first two are a cut above, but it's not like any of the last five "suck", they just all have things that I like and don't like, moreseo than the first two.  For example, the MUSIC in TCOT is amazing; the lyrics and the melody lines leave something to be desired.   AVFTTOTW is excellent - I don't even mind the ending - but the same criticisms I have of the album are here (though this is the second best song on the record for me).

It's surprising to see ACOS so low. However, I listened to it recently for the first time in years. And, I was kinda thinking how some of their newer epics are actually better. I haven't tried to rank them recently like you have. But it's the first time I didn't feel like it was the best. I guess 20+ years of hearing it kinda put it on a pedestal in my head.

[Stadler]

I did an "epic" listening over the last couple days.  My ranking:

1. Octavairum
2. Six Degrees
3. In The Presence Of Enemies
4. Illumination Theory
5. A View From The Top Of The World
6. A Change Of Seasons
7. The Count Of Tuscany

A ranking here is misleading.  The first two are a cut above, but it's not like any of the last five "suck", they just all have things that I like and don't like, moreseo than the first two.  For example, the MUSIC in TCOT is amazing; the lyrics and the melody lines leave something to be desired.   AVFTTOTW is excellent - I don't even mind the ending - but the same criticisms I have of the album are here (though this is the second best song on the record for me).

It's surprising to see ACOS so low. However, I listened to it recently for the first time in years. And, I was kinda thinking how some of their newer epics are actually better. I haven't tried to rank them recently like you have. But it's the first time I didn't feel like it was the best. I guess 20+ years of hearing it kinda put it on a pedestal in my head.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, and I respect what others like, but I've always sort of thought ACOS was overrated.  I know it has it's place, and lyrically it means a lot to the band (or at least members of the band at the time) but even on that EP, I prefer the live tracks to the epic. 

[gzarruk]

It migh be just me, but every time I hear ACOS it feels much longer than it actually is. That whole slow section starting with "Another World" just drags it all down.

On the contrary, AVFTTOTW just flys by. It doesn't feel like 20 min. have passed at all.

And, while we're at it, I have to say ITPOE might be their most underrated "mega epic". It's much better than what most people give it credit for

[Stadler]

It migh be just me, but every time I hear ACOS it feels much longer than it actually is. That whole slow section starting with "Another World" just drags it all down.

On the contrary, AVFTTOTW just flys by. It doesn't feel like 20 min. have passed at all.

And, while we're at it, I have to say ITPOE might be their most underrated "mega epic". It's much better than what most people give it credit for

That probably moved the most as a result of my listening.   I was always going to put Octavarium first.   More or less, ITPOE would have been 5 or 6, and I bumped it up (basically pushing everything down a notch.  I think I switched Illumination Theory and AVFTTOTW). 

And like I said, this is a tight list.  I really LIKE AVFTTOTW.

[Trav]

It migh be just me, but every time I hear ACOS it feels much longer than it actually is. That whole slow section starting with "Another World" just drags it all down.

Another World is my favorite section. But I get what you mean. I'm pretty sure they were trying to recreate the vibe of that section with The Rapture of the the Deep part of AVFTTOTW. Except I feel they improved on it. It flows better and gets to the point quicker than Another World does.

[425]

And, while we're at it, I have to say ITPOE might be their most underrated "mega epic". It's much better than what most people give it credit for

There are days where I'd put ITPOE second only to Octavarium among the 19+ minute songs.

I have mixed feelings about ACOS. I think it has a lot of really good parts, but it doesn't quite come together as a whole. It's still on the fringe of my top 20 DT songs, but it doesn't hold a candle to Octavarium, IMO.

[gzarruk]

This might be better suited for the controversial opinions thread, but I think AVFTTOTW is ACOS done better (and borrowing the ending from Scarred)

[Kram]

It migh be just me, but every time I hear ACOS it feels much longer than it actually is. That whole slow section starting with "Another World" just drags it all down.

On the contrary, AVFTTOTW just flys by. It doesn't feel like 20 min. have passed at all.

And, while we're at it, I have to say ITPOE might be their most underrated "mega epic". It's much better than what most people give it credit for

I agree with all of this.  I kind of wish they kept ITPOE as one complete song, versus splitting it up though.

[Kram]

1. Octavarium
2. Six Degrees
3. A View From the Top of The World
4. ITPOE
5. A Change of Seasons
6. The Count Of Tuscany
7. Illumination Theory