How many "epics" does Dream Theater have?

[Trav]

Epic is more of a state of mind 

P.S. I'm one that doesn't count SDOIT as a song, but a suite.

[bosk1]

P.S. I'm one that doesn't count SDOIT as a song, but a suite.

That's fine.  I allowed option #1 to be 7 or less in order to accommodate people that are wrong.

[Dedalus]

I don't like the use of the term epic for long (prog) songs... but as it's widely used ...

I would say the answer is: three!
- SFAM
- SDOIT (CD 2, obviously)
- TA

But considering the most common usage:

- ACOS
- SDOIT
- 8V
- ITPOE (the epic sandwich)
- TCOT
- IT
- AVFTTOTW

[KevShmev]

But, In 6 Degrees defense, it does have a lot more recurring themes than A Mind Beside Itself.

Okay, even we ignore the fact that the Six Degrees suite is more than twice as long as the A Mind Beside Itself, there is no prerequisite that says an epic has to have a lot of recurring themes.

[jammindude]

A Change of Seasons
A Mind Beside Itself
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View from the Top of the World

So, 8 by my count.

EDIT - the second poll option is the closest to my viewpoint, but I don't think it's ten. ANTR is on the cusp of qualifying as their 9th "epic"

[Trav]

P.S. I'm one that doesn't count SDOIT as a song, but a suite.

That's fine.  I allowed option #1 to be 7 or less in order to accommodate people that are wrong.

Lol, much appreciated boss!

[The Letter M]

P.S. I'm one that doesn't count SDOIT as a song, but a suite.

That's fine.  I allowed option #1 to be 7 or less in order to accommodate people that are wrong.

Also, if we're including suites, how come no one has mentioned their longest suite - The Twelve-Step Suite? At over 55 minutes long, it definitely covers a LOT of ground, including twists and turns, musical and lyrical reprisals and references, and some pretty epic playing.

But we can play the "Is a suite a song/an epic" game all week long and not really come to a consensus.

A Change of Seasons
A Mind Beside Itself
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View from the Top of the World

So, 8 by my count.

EDIT - the second poll option is the closest to my viewpoint, but I don't think it's ten. ANTR is on the cusp of qualifying as their 9th "epic"

How do you feel about songs like TOT, TGD, ITNOG, and TMOLS? Would any of those 13+ minute songs count as "epics"?

-Marc.

[TheCountOfNYC]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

I actually made a playlist of all seven songs and separated them into four "discs".



Disc One

In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1 (9:00)
In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2 (16:38)
The Count of Tuscany (19:16)

Runtime-44:54


Disc Two

A Change of Seasons (23:10)
Illumination Theory (22:17)

Runtime-45:27


Disc Three

I. Overture (6:51)
II. About to Crash (5:51)
III. War Inside My Head (2:08)
IV. The Test That Stumped Them All (5:03)
V. Goodnight Kiss (6:17)
VI. Solitary Shell (5:48)
VII. About to Crash (Reprise) (4:05)
VIII. Losing Time/Grand Finale (5:59)

Runtime-42:02


Disc Four

A View From the Top of the World (20:24)
Octavarium (24:00)

Runtime-44:24


Total runtime-2:56:47

[jammindude]

P.S. I'm one that doesn't count SDOIT as a song, but a suite.

That's fine.  I allowed option #1 to be 7 or less in order to accommodate people that are wrong.

Also, if we're including suites, how come no one has mentioned their longest suite - The Twelve-Step Suite? At over 55 minutes long, it definitely covers a LOT of ground, including twists and turns, musical and lyrical reprisals and references, and some pretty epic playing.

But we can play the "Is a suite a song/an epic" game all week long and not really come to a consensus.

A Change of Seasons
A Mind Beside Itself
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View from the Top of the World

So, 8 by my count.

EDIT - the second poll option is the closest to my viewpoint, but I don't think it's ten. ANTR is on the cusp of qualifying as their 9th "epic"

How do you feel about songs like TOT, TGD, ITNOG, and TMOLS? Would any of those 13+ minute songs count as "epics"?

-Marc.

I tend to think of them as "mini-epics". But >15-16ish tends to be my threshold between epic and mini epic.

[Renzo]

Based on my definition of epic basically meaning "multi part song" I distinguish between short (around 10 minutes) and big ones (around 20):

Short:
-The Killing Hand (WDADRU version) (Yes)
-Trial of Tears
-All songs from 12-step suite (perhaps without Repentance)

Long:
-A Change of Seasons
-Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
-Octavarium
-The Ministry of Lost Souls
-Illumination Theory
-A View From the Top of The World

And then there are those songs with an epic mood which aren't multipart but serve as a perfect album closer:
-Learning to Live
-Finally Free
-In the Name of God
-The Count of Tuscany
-Breaking all Illusions (I consider BTS as a stand-alone track, whenever I listen to ADTOE i usually stop at BAI)
-Pale Blue Dot

[Wim Kruithof]

For me an "epic" needs to take you on a musical journey, and be at least as long as to take up a whole side of a vinyl LP.  So I voted for 7 or less.

Best definition of an epic in my opinion.

A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies (pt. I & II), The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory and A View from the Top of the World, they're my epics. I do still can't figure out if Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence would make it as an epic, mostly because they split 'm in al those segments and by doing so, made that different songs. I would have loved it if they made it one heck of a track, with only different sections, like Octavarium for example. Digesting the whole track is much more 'epic' then being able to pick whichever part you like.

There are other wonderful tracks that have brilliance as well, but still aren't considered an epic by me. Songs like The Killing Hand, Metropolis pt. 1, whole Twelve Step Suite, Ministry of Lost Souls, Breaking All Illusions, Bridges In the Sky, Outcry, Answering the Call, Awaken the Master...

[Elite]

I'd count these songs (and no other songs) as DT's 'Epics':

A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
Illumination Theory
A View From the Top of the World

so, yeah, that's the '7 or less' option for me.

[devieira73]

A Change of Seasons
A Mind Beside Itself
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A View from the Top of the World

So, 8 by my count.

Those and maybe "The 12 step suite", but I think this one is more like a suite (hence the unofficial name) or maybe a conceptual album spread over various albums, which personally I think is a cooler way to see that, like if Dream Theater has in fact released 3 conceptual albums, not only 2 (just a personal opinion: I've never read anything from the band or MP that truly would support that).
Also I'm still in the fence about A Mind Beside Itself being a suite or an epic. It bugs me a bit the fact that Erotomania was has been composed without Voices and Silent Man in sight.

[Ben_Jamin]

I would just rather say that Dream Theater is an Epic band.

A lot of their songs I would consider epics, it's why I listen to them in the first place. And then they have songs that are just for fun, which I would consider most of the songs on Systematic Chaos to be. It has chord progressions and tones that sounded fun to utilize and the lyrics reflect that, so does the documentary released. Who doesn't imagine the NADS video of them battling that werewolf?  Cause I do and that is how the music reflects that fun and non-seriousness of SC.

Train of Thought, I would consider another fun album, but a fun album of metal epics. With their calm ballad to balance it out before the Grand  Epic of ITNOG.

[RoeDent]

Length is the most important threshold, but it does have to be the length of the song proper, not any silence or hidden tracks afterwards. And I'd argue that 20 minutes is the threshold. Tracks like In the Name of God (14:15) and The Count of Tuscany (19:17) are too close to their nearest neighbours in terms of length. An epic has to be by some distance the longest track on its album. So even if you take Illumination Theory, despite the actual song falling under the 20min barrier, it has a good 12 minutes on its nearest competitor on the album in terms of length.

[KevShmev]

Length is the most important threshold, but it does have to be the length of the song proper, not any silence or hidden tracks afterwards. And I'd argue that 20 minutes is the threshold. Tracks like In the Name of God (14:15) and The Count of Tuscany (19:17) are too close to their nearest neighbours in terms of length. An epic has to be by some distance the longest track on its album. So even if you take Illumination Theory, despite the actual song falling under the 20min barrier, it has a good 12 minutes on its nearest competitor on the album in terms of length.

So, given that, does that mean you consider neither Duel with the Devil nor Stranger in Your Soul from Transatlantic's Bridge Across Forever to be an epic?  That would be some hot take.

[Kram]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

Could you imagine if they did "En Evening With" tour and this was the set-list?  Talk about epic..

[The Letter M]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

Could you imagine if they did "En Evening With" tour and this was the set-list?  Talk about epic..

Set 1:
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count Of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

Set 2:
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
A View From The Top Of The World
Octavarium

Encore:
A Change Of Seasons

It would be an amazing concert for sure. A 3CD album with just 7 songs... who are they, Transatlantic??

-Marc.

[Kram]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

Could you imagine if they did "En Evening With" tour and this was the set-list?  Talk about epic..

Set 1:
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count Of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

Set 2:
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
A View From The Top Of The World
Octavarium

Encore:
A Change Of Seasons

It would be an amazing concert for sure. A 3CD album with just 7 songs... who are they, Transatlantic??

-Marc.

I wonder if they announced a tour like this, would ticket sales go through the roof?

[The Letter M]

ALSO - has anyone worked out how long all those 7 epics would run to ?

I'mma do it now and report back.

1. A Change Of Seasons : 23 mins
2. Six Degrees : 42 mins
3. Octavarium : 24 mins
4. In The Presence Of Enemies : 25.6 mins
5. The Count Of Tuscany : 19.25 mins
6. Illumination Theory : 22.25
7. A View From The Top Of The World : 20.5

Total : 176 mins 40 seconds. Give or take.

2 mins 20 seconds shy of 3 hours.

Could you imagine if they did "En Evening With" tour and this was the set-list?  Talk about epic..

Set 1:
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count Of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

Set 2:
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
A View From The Top Of The World
Octavarium

Encore:
A Change Of Seasons

It would be an amazing concert for sure. A 3CD album with just 7 songs... who are they, Transatlantic??

-Marc.

I wonder if they announced a tour like this, would ticket sales go through the roof?

Probably not a WHOLE tour, but if they did a few select shows across the US and EU, like less than a dozen total, they'd probably sell out. There's always a sect of prog fans that LOVE the long songs/epics, and they would probably come out in droves just to hear these songs played live all in one night, especially since they aren't rotated into setlists regularly. For Dream Theater, their epics are usually one-and-done on the tour they're promoting the album said epic is released on. There have been SOME exceptions, but I don't think ITPOE and IT have been played live since their initial tours, and it's been awhile for Octavarium and all of SDOIT as well.

-Marc.

[Architeuthis]

I consider a lot of DT songs that are under 20 minutes epic.
Shorter songs that have a epic feel to name a few.
BITS
BAI
TBP
STR
ANB
MOB
FITL
Barstool Warrior
S2N
PBD
TA 👽
Sleeping Giant
ATM

Those are just from The Mangini era, tons more to choose from the Portnoy era as well..
Pretty much the norm for DT.  If Maiden writes any songs over eight minutes, a majority
of tha fanbase would consider them epics. 

[Trav]

When I became a fan, ACOS was the only song that was 20 mins long. Or even close to it. I don't remember that being the "epic". I don't remember it having a title like that, because it was the only one. I do remember discussions about songs that I'm pretty sure we called "epic".

The Killing Hand
Metropolis
Learning to Live
Voices
Scarred
Lines in the Sand
Trial of Tears
Home
Finally Free

[svisser]

Best epic no one mentions:

Decent of the NOMACS
The Hovering Sojourn
Digital Discord
Machine Chatter
Power Down
Careless Whisper

[Setlist Scotty]

Every DT fan I knew back in the 90s (and there were a bunch) considered A Mind Beside Itself to be one song.  It was only when I got online and saw some saying it wasn't that I heard anybody say that it wasn't.

It's funny - this post got me second guessing my memories, so I asked a bunch of old school fans that were all on the Ytsejam Mailing List in the mid 90s how they viewed AMBI, and of the 14 responses thus far, all have said 3 songs aside from a few people who said they actually viewed Erotomania and Voices as one song and TSM as separate. None viewed it as an epic or even as a suite. So it's pretty strange that everyone you knew before you got online all thought it was an epic.

Length is the most important threshold, but it does have to be the length of the song proper, not any silence or hidden tracks afterwards. And I'd argue that 20 minutes is the threshold. Tracks like In the Name of God (14:15) and The Count of Tuscany (19:17) are too close to their nearest neighbours in terms of length. An epic has to be by some distance the longest track on its album. So even if you take Illumination Theory, despite the actual song falling under the 20min barrier, it has a good 12 minutes on its nearest competitor on the album in terms of length.

So, given that, does that mean you consider neither Duel with the Devil nor Stranger in Your Soul from Transatlantic's Bridge Across Forever to be an epic?  That would be some hot take.

Good question Kev - be curious to see RoeDent's response!

When I became a fan, ACOS was the only song that was 20 mins long. Or even close to it. I don't remember that being the "epic". I don't remember it having a title like that, because it was the only one. I do remember discussions about songs that I'm pretty sure we called "epic".

That's funny - I'm pretty sure I always viewed it as an epic, and I got to know the song well long before they finally recorded and released it officially (courtesy of The Dance of Eternity bootleg). Pretty sure most other old school fans did too - at least those who were also fans of bands like Rush, Yes, etc. who also have 20 minute tracks.

[KevShmev]

Every DT fan I knew back in the 90s (and there were a bunch) considered A Mind Beside Itself to be one song.  It was only when I got online and saw some saying it wasn't that I heard anybody say that it wasn't.

It's funny - this post got me second guessing my memories, so I asked a bunch of old school fans that were all on the Ytsejam Mailing List in the mid 90s how they viewed AMBI, and of the 14 responses thus far, all have said 3 songs aside from a few people who said they actually viewed Erotomania and Voices as one song and TSM as separate. None viewed it as an epic or even as a suite. So it's pretty strange that everyone you knew before you got online all thought it was an epic.

Hmmm, I find it really strange that three people view The Silent Man as separate from Erotomania and Voices considering that the chorus melody from The Silent Man is played by JP as a solo in Erotomania, which directly connects those two musically.  And of course Voices and The Silent Man are connected lyrically.

[Elite]

Erotomania - Voices - The Silent Man is a good example of three songs that are linked in multiple ways, forming a suite (just like the AA songs), but that I would not consider to be 'one song', let alone an epic. This is the primary reason why I don't really consider Six Degrees as an epic either (notice its absence in my list of DT 'epics'), since to me it's more like a suite of connected songs, rather than a long song on its own.

[RoeDent]

Length is the most important threshold, but it does have to be the length of the song proper, not any silence or hidden tracks afterwards. And I'd argue that 20 minutes is the threshold. Tracks like In the Name of God (14:15) and The Count of Tuscany (19:17) are too close to their nearest neighbours in terms of length. An epic has to be by some distance the longest track on its album. So even if you take Illumination Theory, despite the actual song falling under the 20min barrier, it has a good 12 minutes on its nearest competitor on the album in terms of length.

So, given that, does that mean you consider neither Duel with the Devil nor Stranger in Your Soul from Transatlantic's Bridge Across Forever to be an epic?  That would be some hot take.

Different bands have different levels. We are discussing purely in DT context here.

[Trav]

Erotomania - Voices - The Silent Man is a good example of three songs that are linked in multiple ways, forming a suite (just like the AA songs), but that I would not consider to be 'one song', let alone an epic. This is the primary reason why I don't really consider Six Degrees as an epic either (notice its absence in my list of DT 'epics'), since to me it's more like a suite of connected songs, rather than a long song on its own.

My thoughts exactly.

[Elite]

Length is the most important threshold, but it does have to be the length of the song proper, not any silence or hidden tracks afterwards. And I'd argue that 20 minutes is the threshold. Tracks like In the Name of God (14:15) and The Count of Tuscany (19:17) are too close to their nearest neighbours in terms of length. An epic has to be by some distance the longest track on its album. So even if you take Illumination Theory, despite the actual song falling under the 20min barrier, it has a good 12 minutes on its nearest competitor on the album in terms of length.

So, given that, does that mean you consider neither Duel with the Devil nor Stranger in Your Soul from Transatlantic's Bridge Across Forever to be an epic?  That would be some hot take.

Different bands have different levels. We are discussing purely in DT context here.

But you can't change your definition of an 'epic' when discussing a different band.

(Apparently you can, though. That's what you're implying at least )

[KevShmev]

Length is the most important threshold, but it does have to be the length of the song proper, not any silence or hidden tracks afterwards. And I'd argue that 20 minutes is the threshold. Tracks like In the Name of God (14:15) and The Count of Tuscany (19:17) are too close to their nearest neighbours in terms of length. An epic has to be by some distance the longest track on its album. So even if you take Illumination Theory, despite the actual song falling under the 20min barrier, it has a good 12 minutes on its nearest competitor on the album in terms of length.

So, given that, does that mean you consider neither Duel with the Devil nor Stranger in Your Soul from Transatlantic's Bridge Across Forever to be an epic?  That would be some hot take.

Different bands have different levels. We are discussing purely in DT context here.

But you can't change your definition of an 'epic' when discussing a different band.

(Apparently you can, though. That's what you're implying at least )

Agreed. 

That went from a hot take to a bizarre take, but the internet is gonna internet sometimes.

[Skeever]

For me, it's just under 20:


Metropolis
Learning to Live
A Mind Beside Itself
A Change of Seasons
Trial of Tears
The Glass Prison
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In the Name of God
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
The Ministry of Lost Souls
In the Presence of Enemies
The Shattered Fortress
The Count of Tuscany
Bridges in the Sky
Breaking all Illusions
The Illumination Theory
At Wit's End
A View from the Top of the World

I consider each of these songs to be epics and there are probably more that I could be made to agree with also.

For me it's not that the word epic has no meaning, it's just Dream Theater do a lot of them.

[Trav]

That went from a hot take to a bizarre take, but the internet is gonna internet sometimes.

Pretty much explains the last decade.

[Kotowboy]

That went from a hot take to a bizarre take, but the internet is gonna internet sometimes.

Pretty much explains the last decade.

OMG can we NOT normalise decade erasure?! FFS

[Madman Shepherd]

There's gotta be some kind of base level to determine this, otherwise 70% of DT's catalog could be considered "epic." Thus, I chose the first option.

[Wim Kruithof]

So, given that, does that mean you consider neither Duel with the Devil nor Stranger in Your Soul from Transatlantic's Bridge Across Forever to be an epic?  That would be some hot take.

Totally off basicly but yeah, for sure both of them are epics. If they ain't, then non' of them aren't. But maybe the Whirlwind is to TransAtlantic what Six Degrees is for Dream Theater. Can't call them both epics but more a lovely suite of songs.