*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[Architeuthis]

Are we confusing chugging with djenting?  Whatever it is, JP uses these techniques very well in the context of the verses, and are very rhythmically complex a lot of the time on this record.  It must have taken a while to hash out the timing between the bass, drums, and guitar with these parts in the studio.  These type of rhythms can be mind benders to try and learn before they become natural.  Even right after the intro to IM when the palm muting part comes in on the low E string, the timing is anything but straight forward. That's  one of the easier examples too.
  I can't even tell you what a lot of these time sigs are, because I've always played by feel.  I never really studied much music theory, to my detriment.  I always hated the cliche viewpoint of "oh, music theory makes you mechanical and you don't play from the heart". To me that is absurd, the more knowledge you have, the more you have in your arsenal to work with. 
Not knowing something doesn't make one smarter..   

[DoctorAction]

Chugga chugga or djenting probably mean different things to different people but metal often uses the arrangement of a single-note, palm-muted guitar rhythm.

I think the thing that DT might be starting to use noticeably often is the slow-paced, single-note, palm-muted chugs on the verses. It bothered me quite a bit when I was first listening to AVFTTOTW. It doesn't bother me now, however. Once the nuances and rhythms unfold and sink into my brain, it's a different world.

[vtgrad]

Are we confusing chugging with dgenting?  Whatever it is, JP uses these techniques very well in the context of the verses, and are very rhythmically complex a lot of the time on this record.  It must have taken a while to hash out the timing between the bass, drums, and guitar with these parts in the studio.  These type of rhythms can be mind benders to try and learn before they become natural. Even right after the intro to IM when the palm muting part comes in on the low E string, the timing is anything but straight forward. That's  one of the easier examples too.
  I can't even tell you what a lot of these time sigs are, because I've always played by feel.  I never really studied much music theory, to my detriment.  I always hated the cliche viewpoint of "oh, music theory makes you mechanical and you don't play from the heart". To me that is absurd, the more knowledge you have, the more you have in your arsenal to work with. 
Not knowing something doesn't make one smarter..   

IM is a fun song to play for certain... and the muted verse sections are far from straight forward as you say.  For me, learning this song has taken it from a song I enjoy hearing to one of the best cuts on the album.  There is SO much going on in this song that one can appreciate once one dives in.

This album is really something different, for me anyway.  The verses and textures that JP, JMX, and MM are laying down are very intricate and, to my mind anyway, far from repetitive chug.  I once heard Tosin explain his style and choices in a percussive manner... meaning he's treating the guitar as a percussive instrument.  Seeing that Tosin and JP spend time together during Guitar Universe (Tosin has been a member of all three incarnations I think), JP is likely picking that up.  I see JP as a sponge... he's just soaking up what he likes and then making it his own.  I'd like to see him continue to use the 8.

Tesseract, to a lesser extent, treat the chug this way too in my ears.  Once you move deeper than just the surface impressions, the music and technique is intricate... sometimes very intricate.  Altered State, for example, gives me a different impression every time I listen to it.

[jjfumbly]

I recently watched a video in which a Dream Theater fan discussed how it seems the band has 3 eras of LP releases (89-99, 02-09, 11-21). He said that he considers Black Clouds the halfway point of the band's career.

I've wondered about that before and I speculate that some other fans might have as well. It does seem that Dream Theater has three distinct eras each containing 5 albums. Every fifth album feels like an epic culmination. Even before A View from the Top of the World was released, I had an unexplainable feeling that it would be their final album. It also happens to be my favourite of their discography. I truly believe it to be one of their tightest and masterfully crafted group of songs they've released. When I first heard it on October 22nd it was an intense and emotional moment. I had no idea where they could possibly take it from there. To me, the album is DT defined. Can we really expect to see one more whole era from Dream Theater, especially when View seems like not just the culmination of this latest 5 album sequence but rather the final piece of one truly incredible body of work? I've heard it said that it's important to exit on a high note and leave your fans wanting more. I think it may very well be their finest work. Is it something they'd do? Finish on TOP?

[TAC]

Is there a link to the video?

[jjfumbly]

Is there a link to the video?

https://youtu.be/qRJPQuo8ew0

[KevShmev]

Awake continues the same vibe as I&W?   Er, what? 

And Black Clouds and Silver Linings, their 10th of 15 albums and the one that came out in their 21st year as a recording artist, is their halfway point?  I am guessing math is not his friend.

Back to your point, jjfumbly, I don't see the band stopping at this point unless health gets in the way or there is a serious band fracture.  I don't see Petrucci not keeping the DT brand going until he is no longer able to play the guitar.

[Glasser]

Awake continues the same vibe as I&W?   Er, what? 

When I first listened to Awake, I was literally upset.  I&W was the holy grail of prog metal and hearing 6:00 and Caught in a web, I immediately thought DT was trying be the raspy vocal groove guitar typical band that was popular at that time. It had zero resemblance to I&W. I eventually learned to love it.

[TAC]

Awake continues the same vibe as I&W?   Er, what? 

When I first listened to Awake, I was literally upset.  I&W was the holy grail of prog metal and hearing 6:00 and Caught in a web, I immediately thought DT was trying be the raspy vocal groove guitar typical band that was popular at that time. It had zero resemblance to I&W. I eventually learned to love it.

Truth. By the time I got to Innocence Faded, I was like WTf'nF is this?? For the first couple of years, I didn't start Awake until Erotomania. Now..I love Innocence Faded. But while I like 6:00 and Caught In A Web, they've never really recovered from that first impression listen.

You know, the weird thing about my first listen to Awake, was that it wasn't until I got to Space Dye Vest that I thought they did something to stand out, or was original.

[KevShmev]

Awake is my favorite DT album and a top 5 all-timer for me, but it threw me off at first as well.  It took a few listens to adjust, but it ended being one of those albums that slowly got better with each listen and then suddenly became of those "holy crap, this is incredible" albums. 

[jammindude]

Ya, the 5 album cycle theory makes no sense to me at all because that would separate SFAM from the other 3 albums in the 4 album stretch from SFAM to 8V which (to me) stands out as its own "era"...especially when you consider the HUGE drop in quality on the two albums that follow 8V.

This guy is way off on his own planet.

[NoFred]

You can subdivide the albums however, but the easiest separation is between 8V and SC. That was the biggest change in sound for me between two records.

[Glasser]

You can subdivide the albums however, but the easiest separation is between 8V and SC. That was the biggest change in sound for me between two records.

Absolutely!!!

[erwinrafael]

Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:

1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW

[Dream Team]

Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:

1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW

Nice. Makes way more sense than the OP.

[LKap13]

I recently watched a video in which a Dream Theater fan discussed how it seems the band has 3 eras of LP releases (89-99, 02-09, 11-21). He said that he considers Black Clouds the halfway point of the band's career.

I've wondered about that before and I speculate that some other fans might have as well. It does seem that Dream Theater has three distinct eras each containing 5 albums. Every fifth album feels like an epic culmination. Even before A View from the Top of the World was released, I had an unexplainable feeling that it would be their final album. It also happens to be my favourite of their discography. I truly believe it to be one of their tightest and masterfully crafted group of songs they've released. When I first heard it on October 22nd it was an intense and emotional moment. I had no idea where they could possibly take it from there. To me, the album is DT defined. Can we really expect to see one more whole era from Dream Theater, especially when View seems like not just the culmination of this latest 5 album sequence but rather the final piece of one truly incredible body of work? I've heard it said that it's important to exit on a high note and leave your fans wanting more. I think it may very well be their finest work. Is it something they'd do? Finish on TOP?

Hey man I fully agree. View might be their finest work indeed. As I've mentioned elsewhere it's a culmination of all their best attributes AND THEN SOME. Incredible. Same about the emotional aspect. The subject matter is perfect. Where do they go from here? Well if they make another album, hopefully they use View as a template and just go ONE MORE NOTCH UP. Basically a level no human has seen before? Ha

[bosk1]

Back to your point, jjfumbly, I don't see the band stopping at this point unless health gets in the way or there is a serious band fracture.  I don't see Petrucci not keeping the DT brand going until he is no longer able to play the guitar.

This 100%.  There is absolutely zero indication that the band intends this to be their last album.  Nor should they.  IMO, a band should call it quits precisely when they want to, and not necessarily whether they feel they are "going out on top" at any given moment.  As long as they want to keep doing it and the fans want to keep listening to what they do, they should keep doing it.  And beside that, this is a band of really creative, gifted songwriters.  That doesn't mean they haven't or won't get into ruts.  But from my perspective, they have never released anything that is sub-par, and I have no reason to believe they likely ever will.  I'm pretty confident their last album, whatever that may be, will at worst be "good." 

As far as where to put this album, I can't say it is their best.  For one thing, it's far too early to make such a proclamation.  For another, I'm just not sure I would rank it that high.  That being said, I love this album, and I think it is absolutely worthy of being discussed in the upper tier. 

[jammindude]

Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:

1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW

TOT was defining the sound of that cycle? It doesn't sound anything like anything else in their catalog, much less that "cycle".  In fact, TOT is probably the most "stand-alone" work they've ever done. The only thing linking it to the SFAM-8V cycle is the beginning and ending tying it together with the adjacent albums. But creatively speaking, it's an island. They set out to do one "classic metal album" ala Puppets or NOTB, and they accomplished that and then did something completely different with 8V.

[Kram]

Ya, the 5 album cycle theory makes no sense to me at all because that would separate SFAM from the other 3 albums in the 4 album stretch from SFAM to 8V which (to me) stands out as its own "era"...especially when you consider the HUGE drop in quality on the two albums that follow 8V.

This guy is way off on his own planet.

I agree with this, that SFAM to 8V is it's own "era".  If for nothing else, just the fact the JR was now in the band and a major contributor to the songwriting, made a huge difference.

[gzarruk]

I actually see the three eras, 5 albums each thing working, just not by the same criteria the guy used in the video.

From WDADU to SFAM you have the "classic" era of the band, SDOIT to BC&SL is what I would call "modern" sounding DT, and ADTOE to AVFTTOTW could be considered their "back to the roots" era.

Still, this is all subjective and isn't too important really to begin with

[cramx3]

The problem with these scenarios is there's always an outlier.  Like TA in the last few albums is a real outlier from the rest of their work.  Same with FII and ToT.  I'm not entirely sure you can make such comparisons because you'll end up shoehorning an album into a place that doesn't make too much sense. 

It is interesting to think about the "eras" of the band though, they've been around for a long time with lots of music for us to be able to talk about these things. 

[lovethedrake]

I personally would describe it as:

WDADU - FII -  dream Theater finding their sound

SFAM- TOT inspired Rudess albums

Octavarium- ADTOE- DT in a big rut

DT - A View - slowly but surely finding success with Mangini.

IMO the concept of going out on top is intriguing but they would have to surpass SFAM or I&W to do that and I'm sorry but that just isn't happening.

I really like A View but It's certainly not even close to being considered for top album status in my book.   It will rank somewhere between 5th and 10th likely for me. 

Labrie being older and the modern production make it nearly impossible for me to envision them ever topping any of the big 3 imo (SFAM, I&W, Sdoit).   I could see them topping Awake for me but it would take a monumental achievement. 

[erwinrafael]

Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:

1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW

TOT was defining the sound of that cycle? It doesn't sound anything like anything else in their catalog, much less that "cycle".  In fact, TOT is probably the most "stand-alone" work they've ever done. The only thing linking it to the SFAM-8V cycle is the beginning and ending tying it together with the adjacent albums. But creatively speaking, it's an island. They set out to do one "classic metal album" ala Puppets or NOTB, and they accomplished that and then did something completely different with 8V.

TOT was the defining sound of the cycle for me because it was when they doubled down on the direction hinted in SDOIT Disc 1, which is go heavy, go metal, go sound like somebody who would fit the Roadrunner label. SC and BC&SL are definitely heavy compared to their earlier albums. Songs like TDEN, ANTR, TSF, PA, CM, ITPOE, sounds more in line with the songs in TOT than I&W. And it is not just the heaviness. It is also their era of wankfests.

[Ben_Jamin]

I recently watched a video in which a Dream Theater fan discussed how it seems the band has 3 eras of LP releases (89-99, 02-09, 11-21). He said that he considers Black Clouds the halfway point of the band's career.

I've wondered about that before and I speculate that some other fans might have as well. It does seem that Dream Theater has three distinct eras each containing 5 albums. Every fifth album feels like an epic culmination. Even before A View from the Top of the World was released, I had an unexplainable feeling that it would be their final album. It also happens to be my favourite of their discography. I truly believe it to be one of their tightest and masterfully crafted group of songs they've released. When I first heard it on October 22nd it was an intense and emotional moment. I had no idea where they could possibly take it from there. To me, the album is DT defined. Can we really expect to see one more whole era from Dream Theater, especially when View seems like not just the culmination of this latest 5 album sequence but rather the final piece of one truly incredible body of work? I've heard it said that it's important to exit on a high note and leave your fans wanting more. I think it may very well be their finest work. Is it something they'd do? Finish on TOP?

Hey man I fully agree. View might be their finest work indeed. As I've mentioned elsewhere it's a culmination of all their best attributes AND THEN SOME. Incredible. Same about the emotional aspect. The subject matter is perfect. Where do they go from here? Well if they make another album, hopefully they use View as a template and just go ONE MORE NOTCH UP. Basically a level no human has seen before? Ha

That's funny because I consider A View the album that is ONE MORE NOTCH UP from Distance Over Time. I enjoyed the sound of Distance Over Time and really loved At Wit's end it's in my top 5 of Dream Theater songs, my top 5 are Dream Theater songs that are cemented as my definitive favorites and won't be changed unless a song like At Wit's End can dethrone one of the other songs.

What I feel they did was take the songs like Room 137, S2N, Pale Blue Dot and focused on expanding those rhythms into some neat rhythmic patterns and ideas. It's heard in The Alien, Answering The Call, and the title track.

I also like they included a song in a major key, especially after hearing Happy Song from JP's solo album. I hear some hints of those happy sounding riffs in Transcending Time, more so than the Rush sound. The only thing I think that sounds like Rush is the atmosphere around the lyrics during the first verse, which reminds me of how Rush does the first verse to Red Barchetta. The rest reminds me of what JP does in Happy Song from his solo album. It's a nice contrast to the other songs that are more minor sounding.

[Elite]

Awake is my favorite DT album and a top 5 all-timer for me, but it threw me off at first as well.  It took a few listens to adjust, but it ended being one of those albums that slowly got better with each listen and then suddenly became of those "holy crap, this is incredible" albums. 

DT haven't made anything that comes close to Awake sound-wise. It's easily my second favourite DT album, partly because it's different (relatively) to their other stuff.

[Setlist Scotty]

Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:

1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW

TOT was defining the sound of that cycle? It doesn't sound anything like anything else in their catalog, much less that "cycle".  In fact, TOT is probably the most "stand-alone" work they've ever done. The only thing linking it to the SFAM-8V cycle is the beginning and ending tying it together with the adjacent albums. But creatively speaking, it's an island. They set out to do one "classic metal album" ala Puppets or NOTB, and they accomplished that and then did something completely different with 8V.

TOT was the defining sound of the cycle for me because it was when they doubled down on the direction hinted in SDOIT Disc 1, which is go heavy, go metal, go sound like somebody who would fit the Roadrunner label. SC and BC&SL are definitely heavy compared to their earlier albums. Songs like TDEN, ANTR, TSF, PA, CM, ITPOE, sounds more in line with the songs in TOT than I&W. And it is not just the heaviness. It is also their era of wankfests.

And yet I would counter with TMoLS, Repentance, ARoP, Wither, TBoT and TCoT all being closer to IaW than ToT. Nevermind that  8v happened between ToT and SC.

[jammindude]

I've seen a lot of stretching and shoehorning in my time, but this one beats all.

[lovethedrake]

Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:

1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW

TOT was defining the sound of that cycle? It doesn't sound anything like anything else in their catalog, much less that "cycle".  In fact, TOT is probably the most "stand-alone" work they've ever done. The only thing linking it to the SFAM-8V cycle is the beginning and ending tying it together with the adjacent albums. But creatively speaking, it's an island. They set out to do one "classic metal album" ala Puppets or NOTB, and they accomplished that and then did something completely different with 8V.

TOT was the defining sound of the cycle for me because it was when they doubled down on the direction hinted in SDOIT Disc 1, which is go heavy, go metal, go sound like somebody who would fit the Roadrunner label. SC and BC&SL are definitely heavy compared to their earlier albums. Songs like TDEN, ANTR, TSF, PA, CM, ITPOE, sounds more in line with the songs in TOT than I&W. And it is not just the heaviness. It is also their era of wankfests.

And yet I would counter with TMoLS, Repentance, ARoP, Wither, TBoT and TCoT all being closer to IaW than ToT. Nevermind that  8v happened between ToT and SC.

Wow I very much disagree... those all seem like totally sensible follow ups to TOT.  Just not as good. Octavarium also sounds way more like TOT than I&W imo.  It may have mellow parts but it sounds like modern metal, which is how TOT sounds, and has hardly any of the 80's prog vibe that is all over I&W.

[DTA]

I finally figured out what Invisible Monster reminds me of...it's the "Are You Afraid Of The Dark" theme music that played during the end credits.

[Architeuthis]

Man I just realized this album is excellent to crank up while driving in a snowstorm at night.   I was out and about and cruised some of the backroads so I could listen to the album for longer, and with way less traffic.  It's been snowing for three days straight up here in the Pacific Northwest and very cold temperatures.  I felt like I was pushing the envelope and getting that adrenaline rush from driving through hyperspace in snowmageddon. 
🤘🥶🤘❄🌨

[bosk1]

I haven't personally used it as the soundtrack for driving through hyperspace in snowmageddon, but it's a VERY solid album nonetheless.

[TAC]

I had heard that Driving Through Hyperspace In Snowmageddon was actually the working title of the album.

[DragonAttack]

I had heard that Driving Through Hyperspace In Snowmageddon was actually the working title of the album.

I miss those days of living in the country, driving very slowly at night on country roads, with the snow coming down and the music blaring

[Architeuthis]

I haven't personally used it as the soundtrack for driving through hyperspace in snowmageddon, but it's a VERY solid album nonetheless.

Just head to the Sierra Nevada's,  you could get a great firsthand experience with record snowfall.. 

[KevShmev]

My initial listens of this album were not overly positive, but it has been a big time slower grower.  I am a pretty big fan now.

Had track 3 and the end of the epic both been better, I think this could have been a second tier DT album for me, but it doesn't quite make it. 

Answering the Call, Sleeping Giant, Transcending Time and Awaken the Master are all great.  I listen to all of these pretty often now.

The Alien is very good.

The first 3/4 of the epic is mostly great, but then the last 1/4 is merely good.  Not exactly the most satisfying ending considering the song's length and its build-up.

Invisible Monster isn't as boring as I thought it was at first, but it's solid at best (and features some poor lyrics).