*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[TAC]

For me, IT is mixed.

Great...everything before the orchestral section, and what comes immediately after it.

Not...The orchestra section...WHY?? and the whole "You'll Never Know..." ending. I don't think James pulls that off. Compare it to the epic ending of Count..

[Kram]

IMO - The Count kicks ass!  A View kicks ass! and IT is good, but not great.  That's my personal preference.  A View is the only one of these three though with a stunning middle section.  The other two's middle sections are let downs for me.  Much more so than A View's ending section is a let down comparatively - if that makes sense. 

[gzarruk]

I like A View more than the other two (and ACOS!)

[TAC]

I think it's awesome that DT, so far along in their career, can illicit this kind of response about their newest epic, when they have so many great ones already.

[cramx3]

I think it's awesome that DT, so far along in their career, can illicit this kind of response about their newest epic, when they have so many great ones already.

Was thinking the same thing. There's no incorrect answer here.

[Ben_Jamin]

Hmmm....

My ranking would be...

TCOT
A View From...
IT

[Wim Kruithof]

Both Illumination Theory and The Count are in my top 4 overall. A View might close the top 5 one day. It isn't as bombastic or flamboyant as the other epics, but the groove, rhythm and time signatures feels much more complex. Can't wait to experience this one live, as is most definetely will increase my appreciaton even more.

[DoctorAction]

Interesting how the epics are so high up the charts for many. The only epic in a top 10 DT tunes list for me is Octavarium and it beats down ACOS, IT, TCOT and View then farts on their puny heads! 

[Lax]

If SDOIT isn't considered an epic (and one of the greatest "song" of all times) :
Honestly I prefer octavarium and a change of season as epics.
TCOT is an excellent song but it has been stretchedAF, so for me it's an epic just because of that.
IT is nice but strangely assembled and cut, it doesn't flow, plus the horrendous pick chirping noises are killing my ears
A view is still a grower for me, movie intro is cool, the reprise after the quiet break around 13 minutes, with the huge drums break and the evil riff are in my favorite DT riffs ever , but overall it's maybe too homogeneous to me and not daring enough.

I don't think I'll see DT in france or italy, I don't even know if the shows will be held ^^!
I only saw youtube videos here and there this week, and oh man JLB sounds off, it's nearly painful.
When I saw them in milano in 2020 he sang fine after the first song until the end of scenes from a memory so I'm not saying it's long dated !
I know I&W anniversary tour was a little complicated.
But as for the pair of videos that have been uploaded, I hope it's just a matter of bad sound monitoring because he screams a lot and off key :s

[Architeuthis]

Interesting how the epics are so high up the charts for many. The only epic in a top 10 DT tunes list for me is Octavarium and it beats down ACOS, IT, TCOT and View then farts on their puny heads! 

In all seriousness though, my favorite DT epics are a three way tie for first place. Octavarium  , Illumination Theory,  and View.. 
I'll have to say though,  seeing Tuscany live was quite an experience!  Same goes for AVFTTOTW..

[TheCountOfNYC]

I mean all seven epics are either at or towards the top of their respective album rankings for me.

1: Octavarium (my favorite song on Octavarium)
2: The Count of Tuscany (my favorite on Black Clouds & Silver Linings)
3: A Change of Seasons (the only original on the EP but it's one of my favorites regardless)
4: A View From the Top of the World (my second favorite on A View From the Top of the World)
5: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (my favorite on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence)
6: In the Presence of Enemies (my second favorite on Systematic Chaos)
7: Illumination Theory (my second favorite on the self-titled album)

[hefdaddy42]

I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory

It's not better than Count, but it's definitely better than Theory in my book.

Hard disagree.  Illumination Theory is the best of the 3, and View absolutely slays Tuscany.

I've always found Illumination Theory to be a weaker epic. What is it that stands out to you? Anything in particular, or is it "I just like it more"? Cause that's totally understandable too.

For me, the composition and songwriting in IT is mature and some of the best in their catalogue, especially when married with the lyrics.  Conversely, I think the songwriting on Tuscany is kind of, I don't know, "less than", and the lyrics are just terrible.  Tuscany probably doesn't make my Top 100, while IT would be in or near my Top 10.

[bosk1]

I mean all seven epics are either at or towards the top of their respective album rankings for me.

1: Octavarium (my favorite song on Octavarium)
2: The Count of Tuscany (my favorite on Black Clouds & Silver Linings)
3: A Change of Seasons (the only original on the EP but it's one of my favorites regardless)
4: A View From the Top of the World (my second favorite on A View From the Top of the World)
5: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (my favorite on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence)
6: In the Presence of Enemies (my second favorite on Systematic Chaos)
7: Illumination Theory (my second favorite on the self-titled album)

There is a thread for this (although it doesn't list View, since it predated the latest album).  But here is mine:
1.  Six Degrees:  Will probably always be my favorite of the mega-epics.  There are a few parts that drag for me.  But I definitely subscribe to the "more is more" theory, and this song simply delivers more minutes of top-notch music, lyrics, and songwriting than anything else.  And the twist and the end tying it all up has always been a favorite DT moment.
2.  ACOS:  I kind of feel like I'm cheating because I'm cherry-picking the live performance from LSFNY in ranking it this high.  But the playing and the raw emotion bump that version up the rankings a bit for me. 
3.  Octavarium:  My appreciation of the song continues to grow all these years later.  It could easily be #2 on any given day.  I really hope to see it live some day. 
4.  View:  I really like this song.  It has the total package of great writing, playing, and lyrics.  Not that others don't, but this one just does it on a slightly better level than the ones ranked below it.
5.  ITPOE:  Fun blast of a song with lots of cool ideas.
6.  Illumination Theory:  Some really brilliant writing, but despite that I completely get why the middle section is there and feel that it contributes to the overall structure, it just makes the song lose all momentum in the execution and drags it down a bit.
7.  TCOT:  Despite great lyrics (don't listen to Hef--he doesn't know what he's talking about) and some great playing, this one comes in last, just because it is a bit less awesome than the other six.  And like IT, despite a beautiful middle section that is quite emotional and has some great playing, that middle section takes me out of the moment of the song and thus knocks it down a few points.

[Stadler]

Off the cuff, I'd say Octavarium then Six Degrees, but I want to go back and listen to them again.  I might do a DT Epic Listening party later today.

[TAC]

8V
TCOT
AVOS
ITPOE
AVFTTOTW
IT
6Ds

[TheCountOfNYC]

Off the cuff, I'd say Octavarium then Six Degrees, but I want to go back and listen to them again.  I might do a DT Epic Listening party later today.

I made a playlist on separated into four "discs" and got a pretty good running order. It's tough since all seven songs are great closers, but the tracklist is as follows:

01: In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1
02: In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2
03: The Count of Tuscany

04: A Change of Seasons
05: Illumination Theory

06: Overture
07: About to Crash
08: War Inside My Head
09: The Test That Stumped Them All
10: Goodnight Kiss
11: Solitary Shell
12: About to Crash (Reprise)
13: Losing Time/Grand Finale

14: A View From the Top of the World
15: Octavarium

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6QcIJzBWlT7ANrD3H75aNw?si=bizSDQMmSdOK_6XqJiS1Kw

[MarkFitDT]

I don't know where i would put the title track of View in amongst DT's epics yet but its climbing the list and the part from 5.10 to 6.33 is up with the best "minute plus" pieces of DT music for me that they have ever put out. Everything about it is perfect and the fact that 33 years after first hearing DT they can elicit that feeling from me is "Astonishing" (pardon the pun!)

Oh, and the drumming on the album as a whole is the equal of anything on a DT record ever imho!

[hefdaddy42]

don't listen to Hef--he doesn't know what he's talking about

Listen to bosk1 in all things.

Wait, what?

[ZirconBlue]

ACOS

8V
ITPOE
AVFTTOTW
IT



TCOT

[cramx3]

ACOS
8VM
TCOT
IT
AVFTTOTW
6 Degrees
ITPOE

[emtee]

I have zero problem with the ending. Consider this; TA is basically one monolithic epic, Disney'esque ending. So is every other epic. A change of pace is appealing to me.

[JRuless]

the part from 5.10 to 6.33 is up with the best "minute plus" pieces of DT music for me that they have ever put out.

It reminds me to the same vibe as LTL 3:10-4:01 

[Cool Chris]

Top Tier:
A Change of Seasons / 8VM

ITPOE

Next Tier:
AVFTTOTW

TCOT

IT

Bottom Tier:
Filing my 1040
6 Degrees

[Mladen]

Octavarium
A Change of seasons
In the presence of enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Six degrees of inner turbulence
Illumination theory
A View from the top of the world

[Setlist Scotty]

the part from 5.10 to 6.33 is up with the best "minute plus" pieces of DT music for me that they have ever put out.

Couldn't agree with you more! Love that section!

[425]

It's still somewhat new for me, but I think AVFTTOW will end up ahead of Illumination Theory, but below The Count of Tuscany for me. It feels more cohesive than IT and has more parts that I really like, but I don't find it as grand as TCoT.

[Elite]

Let's not do this entire thing over again (especially since this isn't the thread for it) but seriously, if The Count of Tuscany is considered an 'epic' then why aren't The Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember?

[425]

I think it's a matter of picking a line to draw, and there are a lot of options within a range for where a person chooses to draw the line.

Personally, I tend to draw the line at 15:00, so ANTR is, and TMOLS isn't. But I could see drawing the line at 14 or at 17 or whatever.

[gzarruk]

The line here is usually 20-ish (or almost), that's why TCOT is being considered. IT is also longer because of the hidden part at the end, it would be around the same length as Count otherwise.

[425]

Personally, I think of Illumination Theory as a 19-ish-minute song. Two minutes of silence don't really count in my book.

Another way I categorize them when I'm thinking about Dream Theater specifically (the 15:00 mark is one I use across all artists) is to think about "classes" of songs. I think DT's longest songs break down into a few categories:

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is in a category of its own, being basically an album-length song.

A Change of Seasons, Octavarium and In the Presence of Enemies are a category of multipart songs with a lot of variety that greatly exceed the 20-minute mark.

The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory and A View from the Top of the World are long songs with a little less variety and less clear division into sections than the four longer ones, which fall close to the 20-minute mark.

The Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember are more like long versions of typical DT songs, both falling close to the 15-minute mark.

And then the next category, which has a lot of songs, would be the 12-14 minute class.

[cramx3]

Funny, when I did my ranking last night I toyed with the idea of throwing in a few other songs that are pretty damn long but weren't included in the other rankings.  I opted not to for consistency sake, but like 425 said, it's all about where you draw the line.  There may be some consensus of the 15 minute mark, but I can see why maybe a 14 minute song is considered an epic. 

[bosk1]

Let's not do this entire thing over again (especially since this isn't the thread for it) but seriously, if The Count of Tuscany is considered an 'epic' then why aren't The Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember?

They are.  But a lot of times, when people mention Dream Theater "epics," they are talking about the ones that approach or exceed and the 20 minute mark.  As 425 put it, it's just a matter of just picking where to draw the line. 

There's some good discussion on that topic in this thread (which you participated in):  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56968.0

[Elite]

Thanks for linking to that thread again, I took my response to that thread

[Dream Team]

I'm still listening to this pretty regularly. I maintain that the songwriting, drums, bass, and keys are very strong and only 2 things prevent it from being a top-tier effort for me: if James' vocals were 20% more dynamic and JP's rhythm tone sounded 20% more natural/crunchy and less processed.

[TAC]

I'm still listening to this pretty regularly. I maintain that the songwriting, drums, bass, and keys are very strong and only 2 things prevent it from being a top-tier effort for me: if James' vocals were 20% more dynamic and JP's rhythm tone sounded 20% more natural/crunchy and less processed.

The vocal tracks feel so processed. You could probably achieve the 20% by simply removing the sludge around the vocals.