What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?

[mikeyd23]

I feel it was a disappointment, BOTH because it did not live up to the hype, AND independently because it just wasn't as good as most other DT albums.  It was still a good album.  But to me, it wasn't up to par with the standards they had set.

This.

[Dublagent66]

That sounds like how I would describe TA, not BC&SL.  But whatever...

[mikeyd23]

That sounds like how I would describe TA, not BC&SL.  But whatever...

That's fair, everybody's got their own flavors.

[pantsofeternity]

I'm not sure if I should vote for the adjective I want, or the "similar albums" parenthetical list I want, because I just don't parse these categorizations the same way.  Not to make a dig at the OP, of course; the poll is ancillary to what is a perfect thread subject for discussion... for better or worse!

I'm a big fan of a lot of the compositional choices they made on TA, and I'm sure in the end they will go in whatever direction is interesting to them, as is any artist's prerogative, but I definitely agree with the calls to bring in an outside producer.

I'm not here to speculate on how JP performs behind the scenes in that role (especially vis-a-vis pre- and post-MP) -- the production is right there on the albums, and to each one's own judgment of the results.  It's more of a "mix it up" mentality; even without trying to read into imagined band dynamics, it's common sense that dialing back the production role would free up JP to focus on other areas, and that would lead to a different creative process than they've had in a while.  It's also good to have an outside voice in there -- someone who can challenge the band without creating tensions within it (and in fact, as an outside force, probably strengthen the intra-band feels).

[LCArenas]

How about 'A Change Of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning To Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison'... all on one album.

What was supposed to be the equivalent to Learning to Live? Wither? 
(Don't get me wrong, I like Wither, but, uh, you know)

[gzarruk]

I'm a big fan of a lot of the compositional choices they made on TA, and I'm sure in the end they will go in whatever direction is interesting to them, as is any artist's prerogative, but I definitely agree with the calls to bring in an outside producer.

I'm not here to speculate on how JP performs behind the scenes in that role (especially vis-a-vis pre- and post-MP) -- the production is right there on the albums, and to each one's own judgment of the results.  It's more of a "mix it up" mentality; even without trying to read into imagined band dynamics, it's common sense that dialing back the production role would free up JP to focus on other areas, and that would lead to a different creative process than they've had in a while.  It's also good to have an outside voice in there -- someone who can challenge the band without creating tensions within it (and in fact, as an outside force, probably strengthen the intra-band feels).

This.

How about 'A Change Of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning To Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison'... all on one album.

What was supposed to be the equivalent to Learning to Live? Wither? 
(Don't get me wrong, I like Wither, but, uh, you know)

I thought the equivalent to LTL was TBOT, not Wither, but still doesn't work

To me, what MP was trying to say was:

- ACOS / ANTR
- OVM / TCOT
- PMU / AROP
- TGP / TSF

Wither would be the "extra" song.

[MirrorMask]

Yeah, I think in his mind he saw it as:

A Nightmare to Remember like A Change of Seasons, a "heavy" epic
A Rite of Passage like Pull Me Under, an anthemic tune
The Shattered Fortress like The Glass Prison, no need to even explain it
The Best of Times like Learning to Live, a long song with an I&W feel (and the "real" start of the song kinda has it)
The Count of Tuscany like Octavarium, a more proggy epic with a spacey and dreamy interlude

[Dublagent66]

   I'm pretty sure MP was referring to overall musical themes when mentioning those songs.  You guys are doing a one to one song comparison.  I don't think that was the main idea.

[gzarruk]

Either way, I don't think his description was very accurate 

[CB]

I got it.  My point is, don't believe the hype and you won't be disappointed.  Regardless of what MP said, BC&SL wasn't a disappointment.

True, especially when the hype comes from MP! I didn't believe his hype about the latest Neal Morse album and I like it (the music, the religious content escapes me).

I wasn't at all disappointed with BC&SL, not my favorite but I still love listening to it (I admit I love TCOT). And it had the great cover songs as bonus, especially Stargazer and the Queen songs.

[LCArenas]

Oh. Yeah,  the Best of times Makes a bit more sense as a LtL equivalent. They're light years apart from each other... But TBOT is still a very good song. Overall my current ranking would be TCOT>TBOT>Wither>ANTR>AROP>TSF.

And to add something more on-topic: has MM said anything about wanting to get more into the music composition process... Or even writing lyrics for DT's next albums?

[gzarruk]

And to add something more on-topic: has MM said anything about wanting to get more into the music composition process... Or even writing lyrics for DT's next albums?

About the composition, yes, he's said it many times, there's even an MM interview controversy thread about that here on DFT 
About lyrics, nah, he's never been asked about that (that I know).

[mikeyd23]

And to add something more on-topic: has MM said anything about wanting to get more into the music composition process... Or even writing lyrics for DT's next albums?

About the composition, yes, he's said it many times, there's even an MM interview controversy thread about that here on DFT 
About lyrics, nah, he's never been asked about that (that I know).

Yeah pretty much that. He has been very, very blunt about wanting to be a part of the composition and arrangement process more, but I have't heard him mention lyrics that I can remember.

[MoraWintersoul]

Just listened to TA in full and proper today. I feel like it's time for them to lighten up a bit. Everything from Octavarium onwards was so heavy and difficult to listen to - either with demanding and massive albums lengths, grimdark atmospheres, or technical up the wazoo... when this is the time in their career that they should be winding down a bit. There's already some younger bands doing classic Dream Theater better than Dream Theater (compare sth like The Mountain to ADTOE), going heavy was never their forte, and they can't be more innovative and progressive than other bands in this scene either without mixing in some stuff that's waaaaay out of the left field for them.

It's time for some lightness and whimsy and cheese and personal opinions in lyrics and influences shining through, but not the same old sides of the same old influences. DT12 was a fine step in that direction, but they had to go off and have another single-album experiment after that.

Most of their career post-Awake consisted of single album experiments (FII, SDoIT was supposed to be one, ToT, DT12 with the shortness of the songs to some extent, TA full on) and doubling down on classic DT when they feel like they need to reconnect to their audience (SFAM, O8, ADTOE), when you think about it. Which is fine, because when they went "let's just write an album" twice post-O8, the response was mixed. The problem is that the experimental albums don't change all that much in the riffage, the vocal melodies, the lyrics, the structures - this was the first time some of it changed, but it probably won't be carried forward, because it was a musical and you can't keep touring it.

So idk. They will probably whip out another reconnection album again, they're on the schedule for one. But I can't imagine what new things they'll have to say on that if everyone gets even less of a contribution than on ADTOE.

Edit: Tell you what I don't want though. Yes, I do want an outside producer, but I don't know about Jens Bogren. He has produced quite a lot of proggy albums since 2013 with good results, but I don't see them working together any more than I see them with someone like Steven Wilson. I am not sure I want Mangini lyrics because I don't even know if he has ever written them before, that would be like saying you want Jordan's lyrics. I don't want anything from the 90's to come back, apart from the whimsy I mentioned. Those were records made by a very different lineup in a very different time in different circumstances, saying I'd like the heaviness of Awake doesn't make any sense. DT still does heavy, but their heavy now is The Enemy Inside-heavy.

[ToT-147]

Just listened to TA in full and proper today. I feel like it's time for them to lighten up a bit. Everything from Octavarium onwards was so heavy and difficult to listen to - either with demanding and massive albums lengths, grimdark atmospheres, or technical up the wazoo... when this is the time in their career that they should be winding down a bit. There's already some younger bands doing classic Dream Theater better than Dream Theater (compare sth like The Mountain to ADTOE), going heavy was never their forte, and they can't be more innovative and progressive than other bands in this scene either without mixing in some stuff that's waaaaay out of the left field for them.

The problem is that the experimental albums don't change all that much in the riffage, the vocal melodies, the lyrics, the structures - this was the first time some of it changed, but it probably won't be carried forward, because it was a musical and you can't keep touring it.

You can't say TA or ADToE are "heavy" albums, and I'd say that neither DT12 is heavy enough... I don't get that point.. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many others, they do have lighted up a lot in the last albums, and that's something I wouldn't want for the next album.. But since they've already said that a heavier album await us, I have nothing more to ask.. The rest is pure subjectivity, but I don't agree that there are bands doing better what they did in the past.. That's bs.. Haken doesn't do "classic Dream Theater", if there's such a thing.. When talking about progressive metal bands like these is almost impossible to easily label or define issues as if they were immovable..

About the changes, again, DT is an experimental band by definition; the different structure of songs is always there.. If you're asking for a change more sustancial than what they do album after album and even song after song, then what's left for the rest of the non-prog bands?.. Having said that, as obvious as it could seem, doing something differently doesn't imply an improvement.. It'd only mean that, as long as the quality remains the same.. I'd prefer better songs, whatever the structure or lyric content is..

[ErHaO]

Obviously DT is the kind of band I want to hear do something new, but there are certain elements I'd like to hear come back.

I liked the catchy, melodic hooks of TA (especially in terms of vocals), so I want them to continue with that (while not venturing too much into cheesy territory). Also, some riffs like the Rush-esque Trough the Looking Glass would be neat. That influence just works well for them. Some of the groove from, say, Illumination Theory would be nice as well. I specifically use examples of modern DT, because that is the current lineup.

In terms of album structure and lyrics, I don't want them to do a concept album, but I'd like some coherency in terms of subjects between the songs. I generally prefer longer DT tracks, so I would like them to do like three longer tracks, along with some shorter songs.

[Renzo]

I predict an album with eight songs, from 5 to 8 minutes each. With an epic 20 minute song in the end. A DT12-like album structure.
Or, like BC&SL, five long songs plus a shorter one as a single, I think this has already been mentioned recently in a DT14 thread..

Either way, I would be happy in hearing an album structured like this as BC&SL and DT12 are my favourite Roadrunner albums.

[gzarruk]

Obviously DT is the kind of band I want to hear do something new, but there are certain elements I'd like to hear come back.

I liked the catchy, melodic hooks of TA (especially in terms of vocals), so I want them to continue with that (while not venturing too much into cheesy territory). Also, some riffs like the Rush-esque Trough the Looking Glass would be neat. That influence just works well for them. Some of the groove from, say, Illumination Theory would be nice as well. I specifically use examples of modern DT, because that is the current lineup.

In terms of album structure and lyrics, I don't want them to do a concept album, but I'd like some coherency in terms of subjects between the songs. I generally prefer longer DT tracks, so I would like them to do like three longer tracks, along with some shorter songs.

Really like what you said here.

[emtee]

I probably already said this earlier but meh on reading through

-Passionate about subject matter. From the heart and soul.
-Shorter songs (no epics) with nothing longer than 6 minutes and most everything else 5 minutes or under, each song with a distinct
flavor of it's own.
-Some songs with deep introspective lyrics that make you think.
-Repeat #1.

Heart. Soul. Passion.

[ToT-147]

Heart. Soul. Passion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWCYnjkb-IU



Seriously though, they already have done a "Surrender, Trust and Passion".. That must be very close..

[ChuckSteak]

TÉKNIKÁAL, ANEGI, POWAH.

[the_silent_man]

I disagree completely about the short songs. They've done this twice now (DT12 and Astonishing) so I would personally be really disappointed if we had a third album of short songs in s row. I think DT are at their best when making 8-12 min songs that allow room for some fun and unique song structures and the instrumental passages that, essentially, they're known for. 

Perhaps this is an assumption by me, but if you looked back over their previous albums I think the majority of fans would agree that the longer songs on those albums are regarded as the better ones. Obviously for the sake of variety and commercial appeal you need to have some short songs, but for me if I wanted to listen to an album of 5 min songs, I would not listen to a prog metal album

[bosk1]

I disagree completely about the short songs. They've done this twice now (DT12 and Astonishing) so I would personally be really disappointed if we had a third album of short songs in s row. I think DT are at their best when making 8-12 min songs that allow room for some fun and unique song structures and the instrumental passages that, essentially, they're known for. 

Perhaps this is an assumption by me, but if you looked back over their previous albums I think the majority of fans would agree that the longer songs on those albums are regarded as the better ones. Obviously for the sake of variety and commercial appeal you need to have some short songs, but for me if I wanted to listen to an album of 5 min songs, I would not listen to a prog metal album

I agree.  And even DT12 didn't really feel like just "an album of short songs," because despite the general trend toward shorter (for DT) songs on that album, you still have some variation with Behind the Veil clocking in at almost 7 minutes, The Bigger Picture at 7:40, and the big epic to end the album.  That's very close to the structure of Octavarium as well, in terms of song lengths.  Personally, I think I tend to prefer an album like ADTOE in terms of song lengths.  But really, DT have never done an album other than TA where almost every single song is "radio friendly" in terms of song length, so I'm not in the least bit expecting them to buck that trend now.

[Pragmaticcircus]

Don't prove my point or anything.

What is your point?  The band should purposely go out of their way to alienate a large chunk of their fans and hurt their career?  Makes sense, and seems like a smart thing for the band to do.........

Why not? as an artist, integrity should come before fan service

[Bertielee]

Don't prove my point or anything.

What is your point?  The band should purposely go out of their way to alienate a large chunk of their fans and hurt their career?  Makes sense, and seems like a smart thing for the band to do.........

Why not? as an artist, integrity should come before fan service

I think they won't given the mixed reaction to TA. My guess is that their next album will be pretty safe in terms of risks, even if heavy as is hinted at.

B.Lee

[Pragmaticcircus]

They should do an album about the american political system and...that guy.... 

[MirrorMask]

Gods, no.

[Pragmaticcircus]

Their promo single: Lucidum Intervallum length 6:00

Big thick guitar chords, Mangini plays drum beat from "When the Levee Breaks", Rudess playing odd-time signature poly-rhythms on some funky keyboard patch
"He's taking all your money"
*Petrucci sweeps
"The election was a scam"
*3 bar bass/drums tickle section
"Ignorant minds, I free them"
*False cadence
"They all think he's the one"
*Petrucci sweeps
"And just might be the next best thing, but not quite me"

Pre-chorus/Chorus, in the style of Zappa:

"Everybody does Heroin, even mr T. He looks really shady, he molests ladies but he's good enough for our **** country.

He's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dork!!!!!!!"

(Chorus is in 3/4 but has odd phrasing, never exactly repeated, sometimes being 5 bars long, sometimes being 6)


[Verse 2, pre-chorus and chorus in here]

*Petrucci solo over an alternating pattern of 9/8, 5/8, 13/16, 4/4, 11/8 and 9/16
Instrumental section
Chorus

Outro is set to a series of random phone numbers that have been converted into time signatures, it rythmically disposes variations on the main melody in the song, multiple times, gradually slowing and ending on an instrumental diminuendo of the chorus.

The last thing heard is a 3 second drum roll with a sample of that guy saying "China".

[Renzo]

Their promo single: Lucidum Intervallum length 6:00

Big thick guitar chords, Mangini plays drum beat from "When the Levee Breaks", Rudess playing odd-time signature poly-rhythms on some funky keyboard patch
"He's taking all your money"
*Petrucci sweeps
"The election was a scam"
*3 bar bass/drums tickle section
"Ignorant minds, I free them"
*False cadence
"They all think he's the one"
*Petrucci sweeps
"And just might be the next best thing, but not quite me"

Pre-chorus/Chorus, in the style of Zappa:

"Everybody does Heroin, even mr T. He looks really shady, he molests ladies but he's good enough for our **** country.

He's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dead, dumb and stupid little silly man (alright) won't ya tell me he's a dork!!!!!!!"

(Chorus is in 3/4 but has odd phrasing, never exactly repeated, sometimes being 5 bars long, sometimes being 6)


[Verse 2, pre-chorus and chorus in here]

*Petrucci solo over an alternating pattern of 9/8, 5/8, 13/16, 4/4, 11/8 and 9/16
Instrumental section
Chorus

Outro is set to a series of random phone numbers that have been converted into time signatures, it rythmically disposes variations on the main melody in the song, multiple times, gradually slowing and ending on an instrumental diminuendo of the chorus.

The last thing heard is a 3 second drum roll with a sample of that guy saying "China".

[rumborak]

They should do an album about the american political system and...that guy.... 

A song about Vermin Supreme's bid for presidency? Hell yeah, I'm down for that!

[Architeuthis]

Lol, noooo!  Do not pull a Roger Waters and get politically charged.. DT is about the music that tells a cool story.

[JediKnight1969]

I would re arrange this:

Progressive (IAW, Awake, SDOIT, SFAM)
Heavy (TOT, SC)
Melodic (8VM, DT12, TA)
Epic-Orchestral (BC&SL, ADTOE, WDADU)
Light (FII)

like this:

Progressive (IAW, Awake, SFAM, ADTOE)
Heavy (WDADU, TOT, SC)
Melodic (FII, 8VM, DT12)
Epic-Orchestral (SDOIT, BC&SL ,TA)

[ToT-147]

Why WDaDU would be heavy and not BC&SL I don't have a single clue..

[Pragmaticcircus]

Metropolis 1900: The Lake Of Fire

A (once again) concept album, this time acting as a prequel to both Metropolis (1927) and Scenes From A Memory.

The narrative is now expanded, chronologically being:

The Miracle And The Sleeper (taking place in ancient Rome)
The Lake of fire taking place in 1900
Scenes from a memory taking place in 1928
Metropolis (1927) taking place in 2026


Minds are blown in this album and the Dream Theater community once again thrives from their best album to date! 

[Renzo]

Metropolis 1900: The Lake Of Fire

A (once again) concept album, this time acting as a prequel to both Metropolis (1927) and Scenes From A Memory.

The narrative is now expanded, chronologically being:

The Miracle And The Sleeper (taking place in ancient Rome)
The Lake of fire taking place in 1900
Scenes from a memory taking place in 1928
Metropolis (1927) taking place in 2026


Minds are blown in this album and the Dream Theater community once again thrives from their best album to date! 

(*2)