Systematic Chaos is amazing.

[TheGreatPretender]

My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.

Not the best introduction.

Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis. 

[bl5150]

My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.

Not the best introduction.

Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis. 

Epic ending though 

ETERNITYYYYY.......................................................EAH. 

[TheGreatPretender]

 


But in any case, this is getting way off topic, as expected of DTF.
But Systematic Chaos really is an awesome album, and it is a shame that a great song like Forsaken never became a hit. At least in the Metal circles.

[TheSilentHam]

With all the vampire-themed shows and movies, I thought "Forsaken" might be picked up and used in a soundtrack or something.... but no.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.

Not the best introduction.

Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis. 

Epic ending though 

ETERNITYYYYYic tick tick tick tick tick tock..........................EAH. 

Ftfy

[efx]

It's probably my least favorite album of theirs. I was actually one of the "fanchanters" on it and the experience of going to the studio to do it was great fun so I was looking forward to it.

But sandwhiched between two far superior albums just never gives me any reason to listen to it anymore.

[Rodni Demental]

But you're on it! How cool is that? You're supposed to be biased towards it!

[hefdaddy42]

For me, SC is somewhat fun to sing along with in the car, but aside from the brilliance of ITPOE Pt. 1 and the heaviness of TDEN, that's about it.  I find that it has less "depth" than any other DT album.

[efx]

But you're on it! How cool is that? You're supposed to be biased towards it!

Yeah I really should or at least have a more emotional connection to it. But I don't and it kind of sucks to be honest :/

[snapple]

something about Octavarium being mediocre..

O_o

The title track cements that albums legacy of being mediocre.

[MiracleSleeper]

There's honestly nothing specific about the album that I dislike, I just don't find the songs to be up to par with some of DT's other works. But yeah, ITPOE is amazing though. I'm actually listening to it now, lol.

[snapple]

The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.

The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)


I'm not saying any one of these songs are bad, but I knew they'd be on their respective albums. When 50-60% of a band's album is guessable, it sort of ruins it for you.

I'm also a hopeless romantic for DT's earlier stuff. I think the immature stuff is just more fun. My top 3 DT albums are probably shared by very few (Awake, Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity) and I enjoy the SHIT out of WDADU. That stuff is back from when they took chances. I feel like that post-Train of Thought-era Dream Theater sort of hit a stride and sort of said "fuck it, let's do it this way" until Mike left the band. I'm also one of those who still believe that Mike had a lot to do with this particular era's direction. And, again, I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I just feel like I need to flesh out my thoughts about why I'm always a negative cock when talking about these albums. I still enjoy a random listen of them every once in a while.


All of that said, yeah, I understand I'm in the minority. And I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just feel that Dream Theater had lost some of their spark in those years, and a new drummer helped them regain that spark.

[Kotowboy]

something about Octavarium being mediocre..

O_o

The title track cements that albums legacy of being mediocre.

O_o


Octavarium is far and away their best song.

[King Postwhore]

Yeah,  holy cow snapple to quote a famous Yankee

[SeRoX]

No, it's not but it's not bad either.

[King Postwhore]

SeRoX, hard to argue that the title track isn't top 3 all time for DT.

[SeRoX]

  I think there is a misunderstading.

I actually answered the OP's opinion about SC. I didn't even read your debate.

[King Postwhore]

I think there is a misunderstading.

I actually answered the OP's opinion about SC. I didn't even read your debate.

OOPPS!

[Rodni Demental]

The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.

The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)

I follow what you're saying, but in fairness, you can apply that blueprint and associate anything with it really. A lot of the songs you lumped together I'd consider very different from each other, even if they have a common ground of sorts (I mean, with music you can find common ground between very different pieces in some cases). By those descriptions, anything can kinda fit, for example, here's ADTOE and DT12:

The heavy "single" (Build Me Up Break Me Down, The Enemy Inside)
The ballad "single" (This Is The Life, Along For The Ride)
The song that's too long (Outcry, The Bigger Picture)
The AA Suite (Okay, I got nothing here unless I try to lump something in that might have related themes)
Forced epics (Lost Not Forgotten, Illumination Theory)

Lets try with an earlier example like Awake and Falling Into Infinity:
The heavy "single" (Lie/Caught In A Web, Burning My Soul)
The ballad "single" (The Silent Man, Hollow Years)
The song that's too long (Voices, Lines in The Sand)
The AA Suite (The Mirror)
Forced epics (Scarred, Trial of Tears)

See? Could probably make it work for I&W if you wanted to and that's never been considered formulaic.

[ariich]

I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event",  by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.

I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.

[Kotowboy]

This is probably the wrong thread but I had a thought about Black Clouds & Silver Linings.

I think that if an album is going to only have six songs on then those six songs need to all be fantastic.

Nightmare is way too long and has that harsh vocal section.

Rite is ok but hardly A+ Dream Theater.

Wither  is good.

Shattered is a mish mash of previous songs and the final two songs come close to saving the album but still have problems.

What say you ?

[hefdaddy42]

What say you ?

Probably the wrong thread.

[Rodni Demental]

What say you ?

I say opinions and stuff. For example, I think all 6 songs are pretty awesome for their own reasons even if you can find reasons why you don't think so. But BC&SL was my first proper exposure to DT so having a completely different experience with zero expectations will naturally put a different spin on things.

[Virtualman64]

My least favorite DT album with the exception of a couple of songs.Sorry.

[PixelDream]

Systematic Chaos is a pretty fun record. Probably lower tier album for me.

However, I was listening to Awake, and somewhere during Space-Dye Vest I had to do something else and left the room.
When I returned, Black Clouds was on (because of the alphabet), and 'Rite of Passage' was on. I hadn't heard the song in ages and.. damn. Probably one of DT's worst songs together with 'Along for the Ride'. Actually I even like that one better. RoP sounds so formulaic and tired.

[BlobVanDam]

When I returned, Black Clouds was on (because of the alphabet), and 'Rite of Passage' was on. I hadn't heard the song in ages and.. damn. Probably one of DT's worst songs together with 'Along for the Ride'. Actually I even like that one better. RoP sounds so formulaic and tired.

Structurally yes, but musically no. Fantastic chorus too.

[tiagodon]

I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event",  by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.

I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.

Metallica is a prog metal band that keeps their songs in the 4/4 tempo and in the 6/7 min length and avoids the double-bass drumming... They play a very commercial prog. And, of course, we have Hetfield's charisma.
[yes, I think Metallica is prog!]

[King Postwhore]

What does it matter if it's Comercial prog?  Honestly,95% of Metallica is not comercial.

[Kotowboy]

Prog = Progressive and Metallica haven't done fuck all in 8 years




In fact Death Magnetic was the first time they went backwards.

[King Postwhore]

Retro sir, retro.

[IdoSC]

Sorry, but I'm a "hater".

I mean, I really like the album, but it's my 2nd least favorite and has some of the only DT songs I genuinely dislike/am completely indifferent to.

- In the Presence of Enemies (as a whole) is great, but has some of the only instrumental segments I feel the need to skip most of the time. The guys really went off in this song and these parts barely feel connected to the main song at all. They actually break the song into separate mini-songs, and along with the cringeworthy-to-funny (as in, I'm laughing at/with Petrucci for writing it), it makes the song really hard to follow sometimes. Other times I am in the right mood though.

- Forsaken is a really fun song but it's a pop song in the cover of a Metal song with (again) nearly-Anime lyrics. It reminds me of James' Impermanent Resonance or BMUBMD. I love all of the songs and the album mentioned in this bullet, but you have to be in the right mood for it and it's quite unique for DT to write this kind of songs (Wither and I Walk Beside You belong to different genres IMO).

- Constant Motion is bad. One song I really dislike. Bad lyrics (especially since the subject could provide so much better lyrics, and the current ones always sound to me like "I AM MIKE PORTNOY AND I AM HYPERACTIVE IN THE NIGHT YO"), annoying melodies and music, a ridiculously dull and boring instrumental segment for a 7 minute song, and it's just...I don't know, it's bad. The guys played it in my first show of them in 2009, and while the rest of the show was quite awesome, when this song came up I literally just stood there, waiting for it to end. I will listen to it like once every 1 or 2 years like I would listen to some pop songs I barely like on the same ratio (or while listening to the entire album), but I really don't come back to this song regularly.

- The Dark Eternal Night is mediocre. It's not like I can't stand it, but it barely has any appeal to me. Again, it has a horrible instrumental section, probably my least favorite out of DT's discography, and the harsh vocal from both Mike/JP (depending on the live show) and sometimes James are really unnecessary and embarrassing. Sounds like your grandpa trying to sing harsh metal vocals. The one redeeming value I have for this song is when James pulls an awesome high note in live shows (yay Luna Park, boo Chaos in Motion!)

-  I hate Repentance. I really just plain hate it. After the second time I fell asleep listening to it I simply gave up and never listened to it again. This song actually annoys me to the point where I don't feel like going through why at the moment because it's gonna be twice as long as this post so far :3

- Prophets of War - me likey. Could apprecaite Winter Rose-esque backing vocals instead of the mockery falsetto of Mike and John which completely butchers the tone of the song to me, but the rest of it is awesome. Too bad they never play it live. Maybe it would get the triggered vocals treatment from James now.

- The Ministry of Lost Souls - I like this song, it has a lot more going for it compared to Forsaken and the quiet parts of In the Presence of Enemies. But then again, you guessed it - an overly stretched out "wankery" instrumental section and Anime lyrics ruin the gag. I do admit that the climax part where James sings "I wanted to deserve a place..." is really heartfelt and almost makes me forget that the song is about a weird aftertlife bedtime story every time. This could rival The Spirit Carries On with better lyrics and a more concise instrumental section, in my opinion.

I'm really sorry if I offend anyone with my opinion, though that's really how I feel about this album - it's about a 6 in my book, which is really low for how I score DT's albums. The parts I didn't mention in the songs, like the band's general musicianship, James' singing for the most part, and the riffs during the main leads are off the charts. There's too many wrongs in this album for me to fully appreciate it, though

[hefdaddy42]

I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event",  by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.

I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.

Metallica is a prog metal band that keeps their songs in the 4/4 tempo and in the 6/7 min length and avoids the double-bass drumming... They play a very commercial prog. And, of course, we have Hetfield's charisma.
[yes, I think Metallica is prog!]

You're wrong.

[Kotowboy]

My Top Tier :

Octavarium
Six Degrees
Scenes From A Memory
Train of Thought

My Middle Tier :

Falling Into Infinity
A Dramatic Turn Of Events
DT12
Images & Words

My Bottom Tier :

Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Awake
Systematic Chaos
When Dream & Day Unite

[IdoSC]

The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.

The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)


I'm not saying any one of these songs are bad, but I knew they'd be on their respective albums. When 50-60% of a band's album is guessable, it sort of ruins it for you.

I'm also a hopeless romantic for DT's earlier stuff. I think the immature stuff is just more fun. My top 3 DT albums are probably shared by very few (Awake, Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity) and I enjoy the SHIT out of WDADU. That stuff is back from when they took chances. I feel like that post-Train of Thought-era Dream Theater sort of hit a stride and sort of said "fuck it, let's do it this way" until Mike left the band. I'm also one of those who still believe that Mike had a lot to do with this particular era's direction. And, again, I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I just feel like I need to flesh out my thoughts about why I'm always a negative cock when talking about these albums. I still enjoy a random listen of them every once in a while.


All of that said, yeah, I understand I'm in the minority. And I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just feel that Dream Theater had lost some of their spark in those years, and a new drummer helped them regain that spark.

I agree with your entire post and especially the first part of the sentence in bold. I don't agree with the second part of it though - it was more than 50-60%. Way more. It was so predictable that my brain nearly forced that pattern on ADTOE as a matter of habit. Fortunately, it failed, and I love that album (I also love Octavarium, probably because it was the first of the patten trio and the songs' quality is at least better than SC/BCSL in my opinion).

[tiagodon]

It's funny but I see The Dark Eternal Night as a cousin of Metropolis pt.1. Both have many similarities.