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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: XB0BX on October 02, 2014, 08:29:25 PM
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I truly believe that if it was released in 1994 a lot of here would be in love with it, because the melodies are catchy and memorable, and at the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters in music, no matter what style it is. Something tells me many of you hate Constant Motion, but something tells me many of you enjoy the melodies presented within the song.
So why then is it so hated?
Well, you tell me. Methinks that a lot of people only dislike it because the people around them dislike it and they subconsciously or consciously change their beliefs and actions to fit their preconceived expectations.
The fact remains that CM is catchy, DEN is heavy, Forsaken is beautiful, and Repentance is beautiful, Prophets of War is one of the most catchy DT songs ever written, and ITPoE is an indisputable DT classic epic. With that track record, you can't even argue: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
End of discussion.
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People don't like it because they don't like it. Simple as that. That album is a departure for DT, and for some people, it's just not their preference.
Me though? I love it. But I can accept that it's not everyone's cup of tea.
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People don't like it because they don't like it. Simple as that.
I would like to hear why people don't like it.
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I love it.....It is in my all time Top 5 from DT. :smiley:
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People don't like it because they don't like it. Simple as that.
I would like to hear why people don't like it.
They don't like the music that heavy. They don't like the harsher vocals. The don't like the long instrumental sections. They don't like the fantasy lyrics. Take your pick. I mostly don't agree with them, and think the album is underrated, but people have their own legitimate reasons. And I'm not looking forward to yet another SC bash-fest. :lol
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It's just not my cup of tea like Blob said. They just focused on not exactly my favorite side of DT, but it's fine.
As for why, this is the best I can give. There is a type of song DT writes sometimes that just sounds bland to me. It comes across as just boring, standard DT sounding metal without any highs or lows. It just sits level, and I lose interest pretty quickly. Songs like this include, TDEN, Forsaken, Rite of Passage, Lie, the verses of Bridges in the Sky, etc. ITPOE is actually the best song on the album because it actually goes place. Although a few of those place aren't that interesting to me in the second half, I still listen to it from time to time. Repentance I have to be in a specific mood for. It's a little too mellow for me. TMoLS I wanted to like more than I did. It has some really amazing ideas, but unfortunately just can't stand on its weak points. While the chord structure is great, the melodies seem kind of obvious and thus make the song very trite to me. CM is similar in that if it were an instrumental, it'd be amazing. Unfortunately the vocals and melody just ruin it for me.
That's as good as I could do. It's hard to explain why you don't like something. It simply just doesn't resonate with me like it does to other people. That's an okay thing to happen. Some people just don't like DT in general that's okay too. People have different tastes.
That all being said, I like Prophets of War way more than most other people do. It might be my favorite off the album. That's kind of funny.
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Systematic Chaos is amazing.
Well.. yeah, of course it is. ;)
I think it's a fair point that if it was released earlier in their career it might have been better received as it'd seem more cutting edge and have less expectations and comparisons associated with it. A lot of people are probably gonna say they don't like the direction of the production style, don't like the 'fantasy' lyrics, and don't like the elements that seem 'unlike DT', too much metal or wanking etc. :P
I find it a fairly experimental album in some ways and I really like that about it. Also, I was exposed to it as my second or third album (hard to say which one cause I heard bits of it quite sporadically and out of order). Also, CM is totally underrated imo at least around here. :metal
And I'm not looking forward to yet another SC bash-fest. :lol
Me neither... :rollin
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Xbob, how many times are you going to make this thread?
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Silly thread is silly.
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XBOBX's dedication to chaos is amazing.
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XBOBX's dedication to chaos is amazing.
"Dedication to Chaos" sounds like a Megadeth album. :lol
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Xbob, how many times are you going to make this thread?
This is exactly what I was going to ask.
Bob, get some new material. Seriously.
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I still hold to my belief that xbobx is an incredible 4th level troll.
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XBOBX's dedication to chaos is amazing.
"Dedication to Chaos" sounds like a Megadeth album. :lol
Dedicated To Chaos is a Queensryche album/beer coaster ...............although I know it as "Dedicated To Cabaret".
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XBOBX's dedication to chaos is amazing.
"Dedication to Chaos" sounds like a Megadeth album. :lol
Dedicated To Chaos is a Queensryche album/beer coaster ...............although I know it as "Dedicated To Cabaret".
I did not know that. The more you know!
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I'm almost tempted to post that cabaret photo of the Tate-meister on the DTC tour in his rather revealing get-up - then you'd never forget. I'll refrain though - you don't get enough sleep as it is ;D
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I like CM. I also happen to like a few other songs on it as well. I personally like CM because of the vocals, but hey that's just me. TDEN is also a high up there favorite. Ministry ... well, it does have good bits but ultimately I only like it during those parts. I used to like Prophets of War but now I can't stand it.
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I think SC is the most consistent album and i just happen to feel that it is consistently awesome.
One of only two albums that I love every single song (the other being ADTOE)
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People don't like it because they don't like it. Simple as that.
I would like to hear why people don't like it.
Here goes:
Mike Portnoy sings too much
the chorus to Constant Motion is dull
Constant Motion has cool riffs, but has no lasting power
Neither does TDEN
Prophets of War is abysmal
20 years later, POW would still be abysmal
TMOLS is boring until the instrumental break, then gets boring again
That's about it, and that being said, I still like it more than BCSL... As in album. The Shattered Fortress and TCOT alone demolish SC, but if we're comparing albums, SC to me is better. I just never want to listen to it besides ITPOE sometimes.
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Aside from the instrumental section of ITPOE PT 1 , Constant Motion and Forsaken - which get occasional play - I really have no desire to hear any of the rest. It ranks as my second bottom ranked album , in between ToT (last) and BC&SL.
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In the Presence Of Enemies 1-2 Are pretty good, I like them a lot!
Forsaken is "Dream Theater for girlfriends" . Nothing special.
Constant Motion, Forgettable.
The Dark Eternal Night, I don't like this song at all. The effect on JLB's vocals on the first verse, the silly instrumental section. Don't like it :)
Repentance, Boring? If the song would have been cut for 3-4 mins it might have worked for me.
Prophets Of War, ..... :D
The Ministry Of Lost Souls , I loved this song a lot when the album came. It has some great melodies, But the instrumental section is out of place and the song goes on and on.. and on and on..
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Well, there's this thread again. ::)
Whatever, I'll bite.
I don't dislike SC by any stretch. It's a good album, just not amazing. In the Presence of Enemies as a whole is great. Even though it's still my least favorite of their big epics, I enjoy it. It's heavy, aggressive, and has some killer instrumental stretches.
Forsaken is a decent track. Nothing about it besides the chorus really stands out for me, but it's a nice track.
Constant Motion has some good riffage going on, but Portnoy's vocals are what holds it back, as they do with the rest of the album (though not exactly enough to ruin the experience). Dark Eternal Night also suffers from what feels like an overly upfront, in-your-face, edgy attitude that juxtapose so glaringly with the serious and dark tone of the lyrics. The chorus is great, as well as some moments in the instrumental section, but I don't find myself returning to the song too often.
Repentance is perhaps slightly longer than it needs to be. I do like how mellow it is in comparison to the rest of the Twelve-Step Suite, and the vocal samples are a nice touch, but it could have benefited from some trimming.
Prophets of War is...well....not an outright bad song I wouldn't say. But it's not one I'm likely to revisit at all.
The Ministry of Lost Souls is great though. Emotional where it needs to be, but the instrumental section does feel quite jarring and out of place, which is what it mainly suffers from.
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XBOBX's dedication to chaos is amazing.
"Dedication to Chaos" sounds like a Megadeth album. :lol
Well Megadeth does have an awesome song called "Addicted To Chaos". Sure there's a good chance you knew that, though...still a great track. I'm gonna go listen to Youthansia now ;D
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XBOBX's dedication to chaos is amazing.
"Dedication to Chaos" sounds like a Megadeth album. :lol
Well Megadeth does have an awesome song called "Addicted To Chaos". Sure there's a good chance you knew that, though...still a great track. I'm gonna go listen to Youthansia now ;D
Yep, I love Youthanasia, and that's definitely what made me think of it. :tup
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XBOBX's dedication to chaos is amazing.
"Dedication to Chaos" sounds like a Megadeth album. :lol
Or a Steven Seagal movie.
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Answer : no!
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Systematic Chaos is in my lower tier of Dream Theater albums along ( for the ride lols ) with Awake and When Dream & Day Unite.
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It took me sometime to fully appreciate it, but now I really like the album. It has great memorable melodies. As, or even more (unfairly) underrated as FII.
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I do actually like the music, but the album comes across a little try-hard for me, I can't quite put my finger on it. Never vibed or connected with it.
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Good grief.
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(https://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=235812&stc=1&d=1332398612)
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Things I like:
ITPOE PT1
Forsaken chorus
CM instrumental section
TDEN instrumental section (a fun song to see live!)
Repentance (extremely underrated, the second half does drag on at times but I do really like Porcupine Treeish harmonies in the vocals)
TMOLS
First half of ITPOE PT2
Things I don't like:
A lot of the lyrics
Overuse of Portnoy vocals
Forsaken, and CM just feel bland at times
PoW
ITPOE PT 2 instrumental section, the dark master sections
As far as the songs, it's just kind of a hit or miss.
That being said, I do think it's a fun album. The bonus disc is very entertaining and you can just tell the band just had fun writing/recording it.
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I love the music, but get a little tired of the dark lord vibe. Plus as a lot of folks have said, seems like they enjoyed the recording of this cd.
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I love the album, though it has definitely lost a touch of its magic as newer DT releases came out.
As others have mentioned, I really do not like the "monster" and fantasy based lyrics. All that stuff is extremely cheesy to me.
However, the music supersedes all of that to a degree. Chaos is probably tied with BCaSL for me. Both of which I still like a touch more than DT12, and far more than Falling Into Infinity.
That is the great thing about DT. Even the albums which rank lower are still incredible albums.
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It's a good album, but it's not very cohesive and is DT's most inconsistent album. I have a feeling that the album suffers from being sandwiched next to two albums that are pretty much unanimosly considered better than it and that many people who hate DT use this as 'proof' of their opinion as they will get less flak for it than if they said Awake or SfaM sucked and this has sneaked into DT's fanbase but it's also possible (and probably more likely) that people just don't like the album. Here is what I think of the songs.
In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1 is easily the best song on the album; brilliant and dynamic instrumental into, great vocal melodies, high amount of energy, well maintained atmosphere and a satisfying ending despite being only part one. Probably one of DT's best songs and the only song on the album to fire on all cylinders.
Forsaken is alright I guess. Many of the individual aspects are pretty cool like the main riff and the verses, but the song as a whole just seems a bit meh. Maybe it's just a bit too cheesy.
Constant Motion has one of the worst DT choruses, because you think the momentum may be kept up due to the thrashy verse, but then it comes into a really passive and slightly annoying chorus which seems way too happy for the subject matter and "FOREVERMORE, INTO THE NIGHT, BLISTERING!" is just too dumb. Then it just falters from there, as the Portnoy vocals kinda suck in the next verse and the lyrics stick out way too much at that point. The instrumental section can't really save the song and the "melodies presented within the song"? Some of their worst IMO. Quite a drop from even Forsaken.
The Dark Eternal Night is actually pretty good. Yup. The lyrics attract a lot of hate, but they seem so over the top and :metal that it's so obvious that they weren't serious. It really is just DT having a lot of fun in the studio, and you can tell, especially with that instrumental section, which sounds like a polished up version of one of their more bizzare jams. Hell, I don't even mind the Portnoy vocals as they fit the OTT vibe. Not among their best songs, but not really a bad song if you don't take it seriously.
Repentance is great with a very melancholic atmosphere, but I'm not sure what I think about the outro taking up 5 minutes of the song. For now, I'll say the song should've ended at least two minutes earlier.
Prophets of War... meh. I don't know why DT persist in ripping of other bands' songs so frequently (Muse in this case); it's probably my least favourite thing about the band overall. Why make a song when that song already exists? There's Metallica for CM, U2 for IWBY, Muse for this and NE, Red for BMU, BMD and Rush for TLG. Cut it out DT!
I haven't listened to The Ministry of Lost Souls in a while, so I won't comment on it apart from saying that I don't remember liking it.
In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2 is not as good as Pt. 1, but it still rules.
So yeah, good album, but too inconsistent (unless TMoLS is much better than I remember it being) and there is so much better to choose from in their discography.
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It's a good album but I wouldn't quite call it amazing and when it came out in 2007, people here bashed the shit out of it. I rank it higher than DT12, but disagree about PoW being catchy. I think it's the one song that knocks the album down a notch. However, it's the only song on the album that I don't like that much. SC has got a lot more memorable material than DT12 easily.
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When i first heard it, after reading the negative reviews I was pretty shocked because the album actually was great.
TMOLS is just haunting beautiful, but than it drags too much. ITPOE P.1 is a great song, while P.2 begins great but the 2nd half- a lot of wankery.
songs like POW and Forsaken are just nothing special, perhaps 2 of the songs i don't really care about. Repentance contains one of the most touching solos by JP but after the solo its 4 min filler.
CM and DEN are fun at times, but usually i prefer other songs on them.
As a complete album, i find myself ignoring it too much although i like most of the individuals on it. idk, maybe the songs order should've been different and than maybe it wouldv'e been better but as for now, it is definitely lower tier DT album for me.
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If this album was their debut, back in the 80s, DT would have been huge! They would have been battling for their place in the spotlight with bands like Guns N' Roses and Metallica.
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If this album was their debut, back in the 80s, DT would have been huge! They would have been battling for their place in the spotlight with bands like Guns N' Roses and Metallica.
I doubt it.
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If this album was their debut, back in the 80s, DT would have been huge! They would have been battling for their place in the spotlight with bands like Guns N' Roses and Metallica.
What makes you think that?
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Systematic chaos was the realization of a forumulaic Dream Theater, to me. ADTOE broke that (imo), but 8vm-bcsl are painfully mediocre.
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I've always maintained since Day 1 that after the emotion of Score and that entire 8V tour, which really seemed to wipe them out, SC was like them taking a breath of air and simply making an album that was just fun. It's easy on the ears.
I think they defintely ramped up the writing for BC&SL.
But for me, SC was about them taking it easy. Nothing wrong with that BTW.
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Sort of what TAC said, this album never caught my imagination like the other albums. Sure I still play it but not at the frequency I play other DT albums.
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If this album was their debut, back in the 80s, DT would have been huge! They would have been battling for their place in the spotlight with bands like Guns N' Roses and Metallica.
What makes you think that?
Because I think SC is the most easy-listening album in DT catalogue. It's heavy, catchy and more "commercial" than the others, IMO. Forsaken, for example, coulde have become a hit in the end of the 80s/beginning of 90s, just like Paradise City or Enter Sandman.
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If this album was their debut, back in the 80s, DT would have been huge! They would have been battling for their place in the spotlight with bands like Guns N' Roses and Metallica.
What makes you think that?
Because I think SC is the most easy-listening album in DT catalogue. It's heavy, catchy and more "commercial" than the others, IMO. Forsaken, for example, coulde have become a hit in the end of the 80s/beginning of 90s, just like Paradise City or Enter Sandman.
No chance.
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Because I think SC is the most easy-listening album in DT catalogue. It's heavy, catchy and more "commercial" than the others, IMO. Forsaken, for example, coulde have become a hit in the end of the 80s/beginning of 90s, just like Paradise City or Enter Sandman.
No chance.
You're goddamn right.
Sorry, but Dream Theater is too cheesy to be "commercial".
Also, i'm gonna look like a douche saying that but i can't resist: how can anyone think Forsaken would be a hit like Paradise City or Enter Sandman...
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:lol
What?! There's no cheese in popular music?! :lol
Come on now Outcrier.
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Forsaken isn't even good a DT song, let alone something that'd be a mega hit. It's bland an not memorable at all.
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Forsaken isn't even good a DT song, let alone something that'd be a mega hit. It's bland an not memorable at all.
Yeah, exactly my thoughts.
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DT are just the kind of band that are never going to be popular with the mainstream. I don't know why some people have a hard time accepting that.
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Forsaken isn't even good a DT song, let alone something that'd be a mega hit. It's bland an not memorable at all.
It's plenty memorable, and it's a good song, even though not one of DT's best by any stretch.
And plenty of hit songs aren't good, or even considered good by that band's standards. In fact it seems to be the norm. :lol
Forsaken could have done well if released 5-10 years earlier, but there's no way anything from SC could have been a hit in the 80s or early 90s. It's too modern sounding. IaW could have been much bigger if released a few years earlier though.
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:lol
What?! There's no cheese in popular music?! :lol
Come on now Outcrier.
Ha, i know that but, with progressive rock in general, it's just doesn't fit :biggrin:
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That I totally agree. In the 70's prog song did make the charts (See: Kansas) but now? Not a chance.
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If this album was their debut, back in the 80s, DT would have been huge! They would have been battling for their place in the spotlight with bands like Guns N' Roses and Metallica.
What makes you think that?
Because I think SC is the most easy-listening album in DT catalogue.
FII would like a word with you.
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SC is more digestible to me than FII.
Forsaken is a really good song! And I wouldn't classify it as prog metal. It sounds very traditional heavy metal to me!
Enter Sandman is not even a good song and made it to the spotlight. I really think Forsaken would have made it to the charts!
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Sometimes people lump 8V and SC together...I totally don't see any similarities of any kind. Octavarium is my all time favorite #1 Dream Theater album of all time, and SC is just a mess. Other than The Dark Eternal Night (which I absolutely love) I never listen to it. ITPOE Part 1 is OK, Forsaken is terrible. Constant Motion is a pretty cool riff, but the chorus is awful (I think I wrote those lyrics when I was 12 after listening to Motley Crue for a week). Already gave my love to TDEN. Repentance is better when it's played with the rest of the 12SS, but it's the weakest part of the suite, and not very good on its own. Prophets of War is the worst song in the entire DT catalog. I've grown to like TMOLS a bit more than when I first heard it, but it's still forgettable. And ITPOE Part 2 is just silly. ITPOE is my least favorite DT epic...and actually the only one I actively don't like.
In fact, I'd say that about sums up this album for me. I have some DT albums I like better than others, and some that I'm luke warm on...but I just actively dislike Systematic Chaos, and it's the only DT album I can say that about. BCSL is a close second, but at least I can claim ambivalence towards that one.
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DT are just the kind of band that are never going to be popular with the mainstream. I don't know why some people have a hard time accepting that.
This, very much.
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It's a killer album and every song on it is fantastic. I don't know how people define "mainstream" but right now, there are probably less than 10 Metal bands out there that I'd call mainstream. But this album really should be given more credit in the Metal community specifically.
Also, i'm gonna look like a douche saying that but i can't resist: how can anyone think Forsaken would be a hit like Paradise City or Enter Sandman...
Well, because Paradise City isn't even that good of a song, and it became a hit, which means strictly speaking, anything could become a hit, so there ya go. :biggrin:
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I think DT have plenty of songs that could be big hits, but Forsaken isn't one of them. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't really that exciting either. In fact, it's kind of boring.
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Probably the weakest album they released to this point.
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I think DT have plenty of songs that could be big hits, but Forsaken isn't one of them. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't really that exciting either. In fact, it's kind of boring.
A hit is always unpredictable!
Every Nirvana song is boring! Every Oasis song is boring! Coldplay, Bon Jovi.... you name it!
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No, they're not!
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I think DT have plenty of songs that could be big hits, but Forsaken isn't one of them. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't really that exciting either. In fact, it's kind of boring.
A hit is always unpredictable!
Every Nirvana song is boring! Every Oasis song is boring! Coldplay, Bon Jovi.... you name it!
Except DT will never have their following to get radio airplay.
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No, they're not!
I agree. Bon Jovi has some decent songs.
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PMU was the only chance of a hit they ever had, given the style of music they play. At that time it still somewhat intersected with mainstream, but then quickly after that operatic singing and fast solos became associated with the excesses of glam metal, and so they became marginalized. For a very long time they were musicians making music for musicians.
Now they're frankly too old to have a hit.
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PMU was the only chance of a hit they ever had, given the style of music they play. At that time it still somewhat intersected with mainstream, but then quickly after that operatic singing and fast solos became associated with the excesses of glam metal, and so they became marginalized. For a very long time they were musicians making music for musicians.
Now they're frankly too old to have a hit.
Ozzy still has "hits".
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something about Octavarium being mediocre..
O_o
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PMU was the only chance of a hit they ever had, given the style of music they play. At that time it still somewhat intersected with mainstream, but then quickly after that operatic singing and fast solos became associated with the excesses of glam metal, and so they became marginalized. For a very long time they were musicians making music for musicians.
Now they're frankly too old to have a hit.
Ozzy still has "hits".
He has singles, but I wouldn't really say they're hits that drive album sales. The difference is that he's established enough that singles are just standard advertising for existing fans to know there's an album. It's unlikely he's gaining a significant number of new fans from "hits" these days. Same with DT.
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PMU was the only chance of a hit they ever had, given the style of music they play. At that time it still somewhat intersected with mainstream, but then quickly after that operatic singing and fast solos became associated with the excesses of glam metal, and so they became marginalized. For a very long time they were musicians making music for musicians.
Now they're frankly too old to have a hit.
Ozzy still has "hits".
He has singles, but I wouldn't really say they're hits that drive album sales. The difference is that he's established enough that singles are just standard advertising for existing fans to know there's an album. It's unlikely he's gaining a significant number of new fans from "hits" these days. Same with DT.
As he shouldn't be. Not until he releases some decent music akin to his 80s stuff anyway. Pipe dream?
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Ozzy's singles were always radio airplay not top 40 and since radio has changed, radio and his singles in the 2000's are irrelevant. Sad to say.
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PMU was the only chance of a hit they ever had, given the style of music they play. At that time it still somewhat intersected with mainstream, but then quickly after that operatic singing and fast solos became associated with the excesses of glam metal, and so they became marginalized. For a very long time they were musicians making music for musicians.
Now they're frankly too old to have a hit.
Ozzy still has "hits".
He has singles, but I wouldn't really say they're hits that drive album sales. The difference is that he's established enough that singles are just standard advertising for existing fans to know there's an album. It's unlikely he's gaining a significant number of new fans from "hits" these days. Same with DT.
As he shouldn't be. Not until he releases some decent music akin to his 80s stuff anyway. Pipe dream?
Yes, a beautiful pipe dream. I'd even like to hear him back with Jake E Lee.
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I think DT have plenty of songs that could be big hits, but Forsaken isn't one of them. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't really that exciting either. In fact, it's kind of boring.
A hit is always unpredictable!
Every Nirvana song is boring! Every Oasis song is boring! Coldplay, Bon Jovi.... you name it!
What are you talking about?
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Prog troll. Don't feed it.
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A hit is always unpredictable!
Every Nirvana song is boring! Every Oasis song is boring! Coldplay, Bon Jovi.... you name it!
What are you talking about?
I was wondering too...
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I think DT have plenty of songs that could be big hits, but Forsaken isn't one of them. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't really that exciting either. In fact, it's kind of boring.
A hit is always unpredictable!
Every Nirvana song is boring! Every Oasis song is boring! Coldplay, Bon Jovi.... you name it!
Darling, you give prog a bad name.
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Freddy Mercury I presume.
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Yes, a beautiful pipe dream. I'd even like to hear him back with Jake E Lee.
Now you're talking - although based on what I've seen of him in recent times I'm not sure Jake has it any more. Would certainly have my attention in any case. I love everything Ozzy did up until around No More Tears and perhaps Ozzmosis but it was the (under rated) Jake era that I really grew up with.
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tiagodon,
(https://www.quickmeme.com/img/54/5497f2fed0eca61a40ff27570d734f122dd9c58c41df07b3067386ed029fe960.jpg)
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Yes, a beautiful pipe dream. I'd even like to hear him back with Jake E Lee.
Now you're talking - although based on what I've seen of him in recent times I'm not sure Jake has it any more. Would certainly have my attention in any case. I love everything Ozzy did up until around No More Tears and perhaps Ozzmosis but it was the (under rated) Jake era that I really grew up with.
There are a few good tunes on the Red Dragon Cartel album that make me think he could pull out a classic album with Ozzy, even if he's not as good as he was in his prime.
Ozzmosis is also very underrated there, bud. ;)
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I think DT have plenty of songs that could be big hits, but Forsaken isn't one of them. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't really that exciting either. In fact, it's kind of boring.
A hit is always unpredictable!
Every Nirvana song is boring! Every Oasis song is boring! Coldplay, Bon Jovi.... you name it!
Darling, you give prog a bad name.
I'm not talking about prog. I'm talking about how hits are unpredictable. There are many lousy rock songs out there that became hits.
One said that Forsaken is boring. I mentioned a few rock bands with a boring sound (to me) that produced some hits. Sorry if you all don't like Forsaken. I really like it. It's not even a prog song. It's traditional heavy metal. And it's catchy. I really think it would have made to the charts back in the 80s. It is as good as any Ozzy song of the good old days. But it is just my opinion. Music is not mathematics.
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I think DT have plenty of songs that could be big hits, but Forsaken isn't one of them. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't really that exciting either. In fact, it's kind of boring.
A hit is always unpredictable!
Every Nirvana song is boring! Every Oasis song is boring! Coldplay, Bon Jovi.... you name it!
Darling, you give prog a bad name.
I'm not talking about prog. I'm talking about how hits are unpredictable. There are many lousy rock songs out there that became hits.
One said that Forsaken is boring. I mentioned a few rock bands with a boring sound (to me) that produced some hits. Sorry if you all don't like Forsaken. I really like it. It's not even a prog song. It's traditional heavy metal. And it's catchy. I really think it would have made to the charts back in the 80s. It is as good as any Ozzy song of the good old days. But it is just my opinion. Music is not mathematics.
It was a Bon Jovi joke, but I guess it's lost on you? :biggrin:
But I do agree, what makes a hit song does not reflect how good or how interesting it is. Certain bands get big because they just happen to have the right sound at the right time, as was the case with Pull Me Under, but honestly, most of the time, the one key factor that determines a hit song is how much money the label is willing to spend to promote it. If a song gets played on the radio multiple times per day, every day, it will become a hit, I hear that crap happen every day. And it all starts with marketing. And DT has always had sub-par marketing. I mean, for a non-mainstream Metal band, it's about as good as one can expect, but it's not nearly enough to make any of their songs hits. It doesn't reflect on the quality or catchiness of their music. And Forsaken is an awesome song, by the way, nothing boring about it.
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I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Sure, there's the occasional popular song that got there undeservedly, but the really big ones are usually there for a reason. As many prog snobs scream "omg, Call Me Maybe is a terrible song!! Mainstream listeners are idiots!!", reality is, it's a fucking brilliant song that will lodge itself in your head for days.
And Bon Jovi, not only are their songs rock solid fun rock songs, but Jon Bon Jovi literally oozes charisma. DT is great, but they have no front man.
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RE Call me maybe. I'm not against a good well written pop song. But that song is all chorus. I don't think it has a verse. :lol
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I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Sure, there's the occasional popular song that got there undeservedly, but the really big ones are usually there for a reason. As many prog snobs scream "omg, Call Me Maybe is a terrible song!! Mainstream listeners are idiots!!", reality is, it's a fucking brilliant song that will lodge itself in your head for days.
And Bon Jovi, not only are their songs rock solid fun rock songs, but Jon Bon Jovi literally oozes charisma. DT is great, but they have no front man.
First of all, don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. But before that song lodges itself in your head, you have to hear it at least twice. It took a few listens before I started waking up with "All About That Bass" or "Shake It Off" stuck in my head, and if the radio didn't play those songs at least twice during my regular work day, that would not have happened.
And while I think you're grossly exaggerating by saying DT has no front man, there have been plenty of mainstream hits in rock where their front men didn't have very much charisma. Heck, going back to those 90s, Korn immediately comes to mind.
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I don't think Jon Bon oozes charisma that much, so much as girls just find him dreamy as hell, which sure helped back in the 80s, when they were vaulted into the stratosphere of enduring rock popularity. Sure, their catchy hits were the main catalysts for their popularity, but having a lead singer that girls swoon over sure does help, too. :lol :lol
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I think Bon Jovi just has a very easily palatable singing voice. It's just easy and pleasant to listen to. But again, he's not the only example of a rock act who got mainstream success, and they weren't all like that.
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Aerosmith has the ugliest front man ever, and look at how popular they have been for a long time.
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I always thought I liked Systematic Chaos. Both parts of ITPOE are great, TDEN is crazy fun and energetic with a cool chorus (not to mention that killer riff at the end), same can be said for CM, to a lesser extent, TMOLS and Forsaken are nice. However, for the first time, I tried to listen to it as a whole while traveling and it was a hell of a chore. Same for BCSL (Wither and AROP are the worst offenders there). Man, they've improved a lot with MM.
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Aerosmith has the ugliest front man ever, and look at how popular they have been for a long time.
Say what you will, Steven Tyler has a ton of charisma.
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And while I think you're grossly exaggerating by saying DT has no front man,
I don't think I am. A front man, in my definition, drives the show, is the go-to point of focus during the show.
A case in point, there were times shortly before MP left where MP was more of the live front man than JLB. Think of that, the drummer outshining the singer!
DT is what it is if course. But, the lack of a strong, driving front man just adds to their difficulty of making it big.
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And while I think you're grossly exaggerating by saying DT has no front man,
I don't think I am. A front man, in my definition, drives the show, is the go-to point of focus during the show.
A case in point, there were times shortly before MP left where MP was more of the live front man than JLB. Think of that, the drummer outshining the singer!
DT is what it is if course. But, the lack of a strong, driving front man just adds to their difficulty of making it big.
MP outshining JLB says more about the former than the latter. With all due respect to MP, he was outright hogging the attention. What was JLB gonna do? Say, "Back down, man, I'm the one who's supposed to get the crowd going"? JLB doesn't have that much of an ego. But now that MP is out of the picture, JLB does a great job of interacting with the crowd, as well as speaking on behalf of the band at interviews and such. There have been plenty of more successful bands with lesser front men than JLB, don't put it all on him.
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So you guys think that if DT had a frontman like Axl Rose, Jon Bon Jovi or Steven Tyler they would be bigger?
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I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event", by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
Let's be honest, while DT are great concerts to the likes of us who raise an eyebrow when JP's bend is off by a fraction, it is somewhat "clinical". I saw Pomplamoose live the other day, and while the band made small flubs on a regular basis, they managed to draw me into the performance like DT never has.
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I don't think DT is in desperate need of a frontman. People usually go to their concerts to see the musicians play, not to follow just one man on stage. I think JLB realizes that and keeps his crowd interaction to the right amount.
With that thought on the table, I think that DT's last years with Portnoy weren't their best (speaking of the live situation). Watching MP wanting to be funny, with the mic always in his mouth and arse-and-ball-sing every song was somewhat exhausting.
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I'm not saying DT should change anything. If anything, the time for that would have been 15 years ago.
DT draws a certain crowd who loves them. But if they ever had wanted to become huge, they would have needed a strong front man, one that makes the guy in row 100 think he got a front row seat.
To use a convenient idiom, DT has a hard time breaking the fourth wall.
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I'm not saying DT should change anything. If anything, the time for that would have been 15 years ago.
DT draws a certain crowd who loves them. But if they ever had wanted to become huge, they would have needed a strong front man, one that makes the guy in row 100 think he got a front row seat.
To use a convenient idiom, DT has a hard time breaking the fourth wall.
Yeah, but it can't be denied that part of the reason they never did go so huge was because of their music. Because a lot of people just don't have the patience to sit through a 7 minute song, let alone a 13+ minute one, with constant time changes, odd patterns that you can't headbang to, and often a lack of recurring choruses, making it difficult to sing along to. One or two simple songs per album wasn't going to sell them. Prog has been a niche genre for a long, long time, and if they REALLY wanted to get big, getting a more interactive front man would not have saved them unless they had changed the kinds of song structures they write. In other words, unless they had completely changed who they were, and become full on sell-outs.
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Your comments come across as the usual "people are too ADHD/retarded to comprehend DT" type of response.
Yes, their protracted instrumental sections and breakneck changes of rhythm don't lend them to easy radio play, but as a counter-example I would bring forth "Paranoid Android" by Radiohead. Huge hit of theirs, and the same year as FII. The song is pretty damn prog, so the question is not "why aren't people receptive to prog", but rather " why can't DT sell their prog?"
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Well, we can't really definitively say WHY they can't sell it unless something suddenly changed and they DID manage to sell it. I just don't think it's fair to pin it all on one member.
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Gotta think it over...
Imagine a beautiful and charismatic frontman, with cool tattoos, running and jumping on stage, with a powerful voice... Would it have helped DT sell their prog? Well, I can't deny it is a strong and compelling idea...
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Well, we can't really definitively say WHY they can't sell it unless something suddenly changed and they DID manage to sell it. I just don't think it's fair to pin it all on one member.
Just chiming in to say that almost every time someone has told me they don't like DT, it was because they didn't like JLB.
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Gotta think it over...
Imagine a beautiful and charismatic frontman, with cool tattoos, running and jumping on stage, with a powerful voice... Would it have helped DT sell their prog? Well, I can't deny it is a strong and compelling idea...
Well, considering that they auditioned over 200 vocalists before deciding on LaBrie, clearly he was their best choice. And he hasn't done wrong by them since. It's not his fault people can't appreciate him for all he's worth.
And sure, they could've found someone with more stage presence, who ran around the stage and interacted with the audience a lot more, but it's difficult enough to find a vocalist who can sing well, period, let alone someone with all those qualities, and only become increasingly so as time went on.
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Well, we can't really definitively say WHY they can't sell it unless something suddenly changed and they DID manage to sell it. I just don't think it's fair to pin it all on one member.
Just chiming in to say that almost every time someone has told me they don't like DT, it was because they didn't like JLB.
Same here. A lot of people say "great music, but the voice...". And indeed, for quite a whole I was in the same camp.
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Well, we can't really definitively say WHY they can't sell it unless something suddenly changed and they DID manage to sell it. I just don't think it's fair to pin it all on one member.
Just chiming in to say that almost every time someone has told me they don't like DT, it was because they didn't like JLB.
Same here. A lot of people say "great music, but the voice...". And indeed, for quite a whole I was in the same camp.
In my experience, it's depended a lot on what type of singers the person I was showing them to was used to. JLB is a bit of an old school 80's type "hair metal" singer. But even MP admitted that they were looking for something along those lines (directly citing Steve Perry among others). So someone from a metal background who isn't into that style of singing would be immediately turned off by it anyway.
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Honestly, I'll be the first person to admit that JLB's voice took some time to grow on me, but when I first heard the music, it blew me away. So much so that I said, "This music is worth listening to, even if I have to tolerate the vocalist." And yes, at the time, I was very much in the mind state that associated Metal with heavier, and lower timbre vocals. And higher timbre vocals, like JLB's normal tone, I often associated with the Skater Punk genre, which I hated, so that was a bit of a barrier for me.
Either way, the point is, the music was great enough to keep me listening, and as time went on, JLB has become one of my favorite vocalists ever. He's got a very unique vocal quality, and people who aren't used to it have a harder time enjoying it, because their ear isn't really accustomed to it, so it's almost jarring in a way, I think. But then again, the very nature of DT's music is like that. When you first hear it, the crazy time changes and weird structures, it's a bit jarring at first too. So all of it takes time to grow on you, but once it does, it's there to stay.
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My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.
Not the best introduction.
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My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.
Not the best introduction.
Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis. :lol
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My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.
Not the best introduction.
Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis. :lol
Epic ending though ;D
ETERNITYYYYY.......................................................EAH. :metal
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:lol
But in any case, this is getting way off topic, as expected of DTF.
But Systematic Chaos really is an awesome album, and it is a shame that a great song like Forsaken never became a hit. At least in the Metal circles.
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With all the vampire-themed shows and movies, I thought "Forsaken" might be picked up and used in a soundtrack or something.... but no.
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My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.
Not the best introduction.
Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis. :lol
Epic ending though ;D
ETERNITYYYYYic tick tick tick tick tick tock..........................EAH. :metal
Ftfy
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It's probably my least favorite album of theirs. I was actually one of the "fanchanters" on it and the experience of going to the studio to do it was great fun so I was looking forward to it.
But sandwhiched between two far superior albums just never gives me any reason to listen to it anymore.
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But you're on it! How cool is that? You're supposed to be biased towards it! :P
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For me, SC is somewhat fun to sing along with in the car, but aside from the brilliance of ITPOE Pt. 1 and the heaviness of TDEN, that's about it. I find that it has less "depth" than any other DT album.
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But you're on it! How cool is that? You're supposed to be biased towards it! :P
Yeah I really should or at least have a more emotional connection to it. But I don't and it kind of sucks to be honest :/
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something about Octavarium being mediocre..
O_o
The title track cements that albums legacy of being mediocre.
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There's honestly nothing specific about the album that I dislike, I just don't find the songs to be up to par with some of DT's other works. But yeah, ITPOE is amazing though. I'm actually listening to it now, lol.
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The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.
The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)
I'm not saying any one of these songs are bad, but I knew they'd be on their respective albums. When 50-60% of a band's album is guessable, it sort of ruins it for you.
I'm also a hopeless romantic for DT's earlier stuff. I think the immature stuff is just more fun. My top 3 DT albums are probably shared by very few (Awake, Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity) and I enjoy the SHIT out of WDADU. That stuff is back from when they took chances. I feel like that post-Train of Thought-era Dream Theater sort of hit a stride and sort of said "fuck it, let's do it this way" until Mike left the band. I'm also one of those who still believe that Mike had a lot to do with this particular era's direction. And, again, I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I just feel like I need to flesh out my thoughts about why I'm always a negative cock when talking about these albums. I still enjoy a random listen of them every once in a while.
All of that said, yeah, I understand I'm in the minority. And I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just feel that Dream Theater had lost some of their spark in those years, and a new drummer helped them regain that spark.
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something about Octavarium being mediocre..
O_o
The title track cements that albums legacy of being mediocre.
O_o
Octavarium is far and away their best song.
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Yeah, holy cow snapple to quote a famous Yankee
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No, it's not but it's not bad either.
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SeRoX, hard to argue that the title track isn't top 3 all time for DT.
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:lol I think there is a misunderstading.
I actually answered the OP's opinion about SC. I didn't even read your debate.
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:lol I think there is a misunderstading.
I actually answered the OP's opinion about SC. I didn't even read your debate.
:lol
OOPPS! :lol
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The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.
The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)
I follow what you're saying, but in fairness, you can apply that blueprint and associate anything with it really. A lot of the songs you lumped together I'd consider very different from each other, even if they have a common ground of sorts (I mean, with music you can find common ground between very different pieces in some cases). By those descriptions, anything can kinda fit, for example, here's ADTOE and DT12:
The heavy "single" (Build Me Up Break Me Down, The Enemy Inside)
The ballad "single" (This Is The Life, Along For The Ride)
The song that's too long (Outcry, The Bigger Picture)
The AA Suite (Okay, I got nothing here unless I try to lump something in that might have related themes)
Forced epics (Lost Not Forgotten, Illumination Theory)
Lets try with an earlier example like Awake and Falling Into Infinity:
The heavy "single" (Lie/Caught In A Web, Burning My Soul)
The ballad "single" (The Silent Man, Hollow Years)
The song that's too long (Voices, Lines in The Sand)
The AA Suite (The Mirror)
Forced epics (Scarred, Trial of Tears)
See? Could probably make it work for I&W if you wanted to and that's never been considered formulaic.
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I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event", by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.
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This is probably the wrong thread but I had a thought about Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
I think that if an album is going to only have six songs on then those six songs need to all be fantastic.
Nightmare is way too long and has that harsh vocal section.
Rite is ok but hardly A+ Dream Theater.
Wither is good.
Shattered is a mish mash of previous songs and the final two songs come close to saving the album but still have problems.
What say you ?
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What say you ?
Probably the wrong thread.
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What say you ?
I say opinions and stuff. For example, I think all 6 songs are pretty awesome for their own reasons even if you can find reasons why you don't think so. But BC&SL was my first proper exposure to DT so having a completely different experience with zero expectations will naturally put a different spin on things.
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My least favorite DT album with the exception of a couple of songs.Sorry.
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Systematic Chaos is a pretty fun record. Probably lower tier album for me.
However, I was listening to Awake, and somewhere during Space-Dye Vest I had to do something else and left the room.
When I returned, Black Clouds was on (because of the alphabet), and 'Rite of Passage' was on. I hadn't heard the song in ages and.. damn. Probably one of DT's worst songs together with 'Along for the Ride'. Actually I even like that one better. RoP sounds so formulaic and tired.
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When I returned, Black Clouds was on (because of the alphabet), and 'Rite of Passage' was on. I hadn't heard the song in ages and.. damn. Probably one of DT's worst songs together with 'Along for the Ride'. Actually I even like that one better. RoP sounds so formulaic and tired.
Structurally yes, but musically no. Fantastic chorus too.
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I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event", by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.
Metallica is a prog metal band that keeps their songs in the 4/4 tempo and in the 6/7 min length and avoids the double-bass drumming... They play a very commercial prog. And, of course, we have Hetfield's charisma.
[yes, I think Metallica is prog!]
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What does it matter if it's Comercial prog? Honestly,95% of Metallica is not comercial.
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Prog = Progressive and Metallica haven't done fuck all in 8 years :neverusethis:
In fact Death Magnetic was the first time they went backwards.
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Retro sir, retro.
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Sorry, but I'm a "hater".
I mean, I really like the album, but it's my 2nd least favorite and has some of the only DT songs I genuinely dislike/am completely indifferent to.
- In the Presence of Enemies (as a whole) is great, but has some of the only instrumental segments I feel the need to skip most of the time. The guys really went off in this song and these parts barely feel connected to the main song at all. They actually break the song into separate mini-songs, and along with the cringeworthy-to-funny (as in, I'm laughing at/with Petrucci for writing it), it makes the song really hard to follow sometimes. Other times I am in the right mood though.
- Forsaken is a really fun song but it's a pop song in the cover of a Metal song with (again) nearly-Anime lyrics. It reminds me of James' Impermanent Resonance or BMUBMD. I love all of the songs and the album mentioned in this bullet, but you have to be in the right mood for it and it's quite unique for DT to write this kind of songs (Wither and I Walk Beside You belong to different genres IMO).
- Constant Motion is bad. One song I really dislike. Bad lyrics (especially since the subject could provide so much better lyrics, and the current ones always sound to me like "I AM MIKE PORTNOY AND I AM HYPERACTIVE IN THE NIGHT YO"), annoying melodies and music, a ridiculously dull and boring instrumental segment for a 7 minute song, and it's just...I don't know, it's bad. The guys played it in my first show of them in 2009, and while the rest of the show was quite awesome, when this song came up I literally just stood there, waiting for it to end. I will listen to it like once every 1 or 2 years like I would listen to some pop songs I barely like on the same ratio (or while listening to the entire album), but I really don't come back to this song regularly.
- The Dark Eternal Night is mediocre. It's not like I can't stand it, but it barely has any appeal to me. Again, it has a horrible instrumental section, probably my least favorite out of DT's discography, and the harsh vocal from both Mike/JP (depending on the live show) and sometimes James are really unnecessary and embarrassing. Sounds like your grandpa trying to sing harsh metal vocals. The one redeeming value I have for this song is when James pulls an awesome high note in live shows (yay Luna Park, boo Chaos in Motion!)
- I hate Repentance. I really just plain hate it. After the second time I fell asleep listening to it I simply gave up and never listened to it again. This song actually annoys me to the point where I don't feel like going through why at the moment because it's gonna be twice as long as this post so far :3
- Prophets of War - me likey. Could apprecaite Winter Rose-esque backing vocals instead of the mockery falsetto of Mike and John which completely butchers the tone of the song to me, but the rest of it is awesome. Too bad they never play it live. Maybe it would get the triggered vocals treatment from James now.
- The Ministry of Lost Souls - I like this song, it has a lot more going for it compared to Forsaken and the quiet parts of In the Presence of Enemies. But then again, you guessed it - an overly stretched out "wankery" instrumental section and Anime lyrics ruin the gag. I do admit that the climax part where James sings "I wanted to deserve a place..." is really heartfelt and almost makes me forget that the song is about a weird aftertlife bedtime story every time. This could rival The Spirit Carries On with better lyrics and a more concise instrumental section, in my opinion.
I'm really sorry if I offend anyone with my opinion, though that's really how I feel about this album - it's about a 6 in my book, which is really low for how I score DT's albums. The parts I didn't mention in the songs, like the band's general musicianship, James' singing for the most part, and the riffs during the main leads are off the charts. There's too many wrongs in this album for me to fully appreciate it, though :\
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I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event", by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.
Metallica is a prog metal band that keeps their songs in the 4/4 tempo and in the 6/7 min length and avoids the double-bass drumming... They play a very commercial prog. And, of course, we have Hetfield's charisma.
[yes, I think Metallica is prog!]
You're wrong.
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My Top Tier :
Octavarium
Six Degrees
Scenes From A Memory
Train of Thought
My Middle Tier :
Falling Into Infinity
A Dramatic Turn Of Events
DT12
Images & Words
My Bottom Tier :
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Awake
Systematic Chaos
When Dream & Day Unite
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The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.
The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)
I'm not saying any one of these songs are bad, but I knew they'd be on their respective albums. When 50-60% of a band's album is guessable, it sort of ruins it for you.
I'm also a hopeless romantic for DT's earlier stuff. I think the immature stuff is just more fun. My top 3 DT albums are probably shared by very few (Awake, Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity) and I enjoy the SHIT out of WDADU. That stuff is back from when they took chances. I feel like that post-Train of Thought-era Dream Theater sort of hit a stride and sort of said "fuck it, let's do it this way" until Mike left the band. I'm also one of those who still believe that Mike had a lot to do with this particular era's direction. And, again, I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I just feel like I need to flesh out my thoughts about why I'm always a negative cock when talking about these albums. I still enjoy a random listen of them every once in a while.
All of that said, yeah, I understand I'm in the minority. And I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just feel that Dream Theater had lost some of their spark in those years, and a new drummer helped them regain that spark.
I agree with your entire post and especially the first part of the sentence in bold. I don't agree with the second part of it though - it was more than 50-60%. Way more. It was so predictable that my brain nearly forced that pattern on ADTOE as a matter of habit. Fortunately, it failed, and I love that album (I also love Octavarium, probably because it was the first of the patten trio and the songs' quality is at least better than SC/BCSL in my opinion).
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It's funny but I see The Dark Eternal Night as a cousin of Metropolis pt.1. Both have many similarities.
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I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event", by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.
Metallica is a prog metal band that keeps their songs in the 4/4 tempo and in the 6/7 min length and avoids the double-bass drumming... They play a very commercial prog. And, of course, we have Hetfield's charisma.
[yes, I think Metallica is prog!]
You're wrong.
There's nothing right or wrong about music, my friend.
It's all about what means to you and what makes sense to you.
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If we're talking our opinion on it, of course. But Metallica is not a prog metal band, and no amount of reasoning is going to change that.
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Yeah long songs don't make one Prog.
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Master of Puppets, And Justice for All and Death Magnetic sound very proggy to me.
Why SC is prog and these are not?
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It's funny but I see The Dark Eternal Night as a cousin of Metropolis pt.1. Both have many similarities.
I don't think there many similarities overall, but the instrumental section is very reminiscent, very well structured, linear progression, not dwelling on one section for too long, dissonant harmonies, lots of chromatics and variations on musical and rhythmic themes. And also because the TDEN instrumental section is one of the best they've ever done.
And Metallica has never been prog metal. They've had some elements occasionally in there, but they've never pushed far enough to classify as prog.
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And Pink Floyd has?
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A big hell yeah as symphonic prog. Yes.
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A big hell yeah as symphonic prog. Yes.
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And Pink Floyd has?
Have you heard Dark Side of The Moon?
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And Metallica has never been prog metal. They've had some elements occasionally in there, but they've never pushed far enough to classify as prog.
At least, when talking about AJFA, there was "progression" in their sound :P
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progression metal
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And Pink Floyd has?
Echoes. That's all I gotta say.
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And Metallica has never been prog metal. They've had some elements occasionally in there, but they've never pushed far enough to classify as prog.
Well that depends on how you want to look at it. Have Metallica ever been specifically a Progressive Metal band? No. But they do have quite a few songs that I personally would definitely consider are Progressive. I'm not just referring to their older songs either. Listen to songs like "Bleeding Me" and "The Outlaw Torn" for example.
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Well that depends on how you want to look at it. Have Metallica ever been specifically a Progressive Metal band? No. But they do have quite a few songs that I personally would definitely consider are Progressive. I'm not just referring to their older songs either. Listen to songs like "Bleeding Me" and "The Outlaw Torn" for example.
Yeah, but I can't think of too many bands that don't deviate from a very narrow definition of what genre they are. I mean, Iron Maiden has dabbled in prog elements countless times, too. Heck, Dream Theater themselves, I can't honestly listen to every song and say, "This song is of the prog metal genre." I mean, listen to The Silent Man, or Hollow Years, or Far From Heaven. There's nothing really prog or metal about them. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it makes DT more prog because they're willing to dabble in a wider array of styles and influences. But on their own, those songs wouldn't be classified as prog or metal.
My point is, that just the same, not every song Metallica puts out has to be classified as "Thrash Metal" and certain songs they made may be classified as prog metal, but that doesn't make them a Prog Metal band.
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As far as the topic is concerned, Systematic Chaos was the first album by DT that I waited in anticipation for. When I got into them, it was mid 2005 or so. All I remember was Octavarium had just got out. I got into them through Images and Words and Live at Budokan. I enjoyed 8vm and distinctly remember the free download of Constant Motion, I enjoyed it but it felt different. I had a lot of bad things going on in life and was hopeful to have some music to distract me from it. Initially, I enjoyed it for the most part, I never did like TMOLS, I still think it's the most boring song they've ever done and just bad in general. Several songs grew on me though, and ones I liked at the time (I'm looking at you Forsaken) I never listen to anymore. Still, while I feel the album lacks I still enjoy ITPOE pt1, Constant Motion, TDEN, and POW. I like bits of ITPOE Pt.2 but I think the first is definitely better. I don't hate the album, I just never feel like listening to all of it.
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It's a decent album, but easily their worst.
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It's a decent album, but easily their worst.
Until you recall the repressed memory that WDADU still exists.
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It's a decent album, but easily their worst.
Until you recall the repressed memory that WDADU BC&SL still exists.
Fixed that for you. :lol
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It's a decent album, but easily their worst.
Until you recall the repressed memory that WDADU still exists.
Fixed that for you. :lol
It doesn't count as fixed when you do it wrong. :biggrin:
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Me thinking BC&SL is their worst album is as right as you thinking WDADU is their worst album. OPINIONS :biggrin:
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Guys obviously TOT is the worst
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Guys, please stop having wrong opinions.
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Oh fuck you're right. WDADU sucks. What was I thinking?!
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You clearly weren't!
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I think we can all agree that I&W and SFAM are by far their two worst albums.
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I think we can all agree that I&W and SFAM are by far their two worst albums.
And that Systematic Chaos is by far their best album i know it's one of your favorite DT albums, just joking with you.
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I'm in the minority here, but BC&SL is a great album. A return to songwriting, less meandering, and the heaviness works and doesn't sound so forced and silly like it did on SC and TOT. I don't like the growls, but at least there's no Muse/Radiohead/U2-wannabe track.
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Hey, we actually agree on something!
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Nothing sounded forced and silly to me on Train of Thought.
There's a lot of sillyness to be had on BCSL though.
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Can someone tell me if there's a "BC&SL is amazing" thread already? If not, I may just have to go and start one.
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Can someone tell me if there's a "BC&SL is amazing" thread already? If not, I may just have to go and start one.
But that would be lying, and lying is wrong. :D
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Can someone tell me if there's a "BC&SL is amazing" thread already? If not, I may just have to go and start one.
But that would be lying, and lying is wrong. :D
:angry: Lying makes teh babi Jesus CRI EVRY TIEM !!!
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Nothing sounded forced and silly to me on Train of Thought.
There's a lot of sillyness to be had on BCSL though.
Indeed there's nothing quite as cringing as " Every1 survive ! Roarrrr ! " on Train of Thought.
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JLB rapping, QED.
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I love TOT, but there are way more goofy parts and attempts at being "tr00 m3t@l" on that one. BC&SL seems like a classic DT record in spirit, but people around here seem to say that about ADTOE and DT12, so what the fuck do I know? :D
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I love TOT, but there are way more goofy parts and attempts at being "tr00 m3t@l" on that one. BC&SL seems like a classic DT record in spirit, but people around here seem to say that about ADTOE and DT12, so what the fuck do I know? :D
A lot of the heavier moments on TOT feel way more sincere than on BC&SL. It had it's share of cheese, but so does every DT album. On the whole, it rarely sounded as if they were trying to force it. No part of it gets worse than
EVERYONE SURVIVED
ROOOOOOAAAAAAAAR
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Anytime the ground rules for an album are "Let's go in there and make METAL!!," you're going to have something less sincere than when the group goes in and just does their thing. Of course, both are probably very sincere albums. I don't have a device that measures sincerity so I probably shouldn't even comment.
I'm not saying that BC&SL is totally cheese-less or without flaw. It gets pretty damn silly. So did SFAM! Like you said, it's Dream Theater, after all. But I really do think it's their strongest effort after TOT (yes, better than Octavarium!), and much better than the Mangini albums.
And even though ADTOE was structured just like I&W, I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds. Even the cheesy parts sound less forced than the nu-metal-style peppering of swear words on TOT.
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JLB rapping, QED.
Nope. Still not as bad as the roar, and although I love TSF, MP's tough guy shouting is quite lame.
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What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...
(rating out of 10)
-A Nightmare to Remember - 9+
-A Right of Passage - 8.5+
-Wither - 7
-The Shattered Fortress - 9.5
-The Best of Times - 9
-The Count of Tuscany - near 10
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Man, maybe its because ToT was my introduction to the band, but I'd take ToT over BC&SL any day of the week.
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What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...
(rating out of 10)
-A Nightmare to Remember - 9+
-A Right of Passage - 8.5+
-Wither - 7
-The Shattered Fortress - 9.5
-The Best of Times - 9
-The Count of Tuscany - near 10
This is how I would rate the songs.
A Nightmare to Remember - 6
A Rite of Passage - 6
Wither - 6
The Shattered Fortress - 4
The Best of Times - 9
The Count of Tuscany - 7
The Best Of Times is by far the best song here IMHO, while The Shattered Fortress feels like an incoherent mish-mash of bits and pieces glued together.
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I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds.
I'm glad you really like the album, but I just don't get this at all.
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I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds.
I'm glad you really like the album, but I just don't get this at all.
Nor do I. I'd like to know where you hear this, though, as I like classic DT more than modern DT
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I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds.
I'm glad you really like the album, but I just don't get this at all.
Nor do I. I'd like to know where you hear this, though, as I like classic DT more than modern DT
Thirded. BC&SL is not classic DT at all, at least imho.
B.Lee
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What I mean by "classic DT" I mean "what I enjoy the most."
I don't really care for 4 songs from Octavarium (The Answer Lies Within, These Walls, I Walk Beside You, and Never Enough, the rest is great), and I don't really dig anything from Systematic Chaos, other than ITPOE and Repentance. I thought Black Clouds sounded like a solid prog metal record, especially after two albums I thought were largely inconsistent. I know everyone disagrees, but I think BC&SL has some of their best material.
Don't get me wrong, TOT is awesome. But I never much cared for Honor Thy Father, Vacant, and I've always thought In The Name of God was a little bit too long. The only song I dislike on BC&SL is Wither.
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What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...
I know everyone disagrees, but I think BC&SL has some of their best material.
It's not hate, it's just that most don't like BCSL that much, as you yourself said it ;)
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Anytime the ground rules for an album are "Let's go in there and make METAL!!," you're going to have something less sincere than when the group goes in and just does their thing. Of course, both are probably very sincere albums. I don't have a device that measures sincerity so I probably shouldn't even comment.
I'm not saying that BC&SL is totally cheese-less or without flaw. It gets pretty damn silly. So did SFAM! Like you said, it's Dream Theater, after all. But I really do think it's their strongest effort after TOT (yes, better than Octavarium!), and much better than the Mangini albums.
And even though ADTOE was structured just like I&W, I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds. Even the cheesy parts sound less forced than the nu-metal-style peppering of swear words on TOT.
I´m with you, my friend! Totally agree!
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What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...
(rating out of 10)
-A Nightmare to Remember - 9+
-A Right of Passage - 8.5+
-Wither - 7
-The Shattered Fortress - 9.5
-The Best of Times - 9
-The Count of Tuscany - near 10
This is how I would rate the songs.
A Nightmare to Remember - 6
A Rite of Passage - 6
Wither - 6
The Shattered Fortress - 4
The Best of Times - 9
The Count of Tuscany - 7
The Best Of Times is by far the best song here IMHO, while The Shattered Fortress feels like an incoherent mish-mash of bits and pieces glued together.
All in all, it's a great album, but in the grand scheme of DT, it's got a fairly low average compared to the others. There are just moments that bring it down so much.
A Nightmare to Remember - 6.5
A Rite of Passage - 6.5
Wither - 7
The Shattered Fortress - 9
The Best of Times - 5
The Count of Tuscany - 8.5
DTF! Where we'll take any opportunity we can to rate stuff, even if it has nothing to do with the topic at hand! :lol
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8.5, 6.5, 7, 8.5, 8, 9.5
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I don't know how a thread on SC turned into a rating BCASL thread, but whatever. :lol
A Nightmare to Remember - 8.5
A Rite of Passage - 8
Wither - 8.5
The Shattered Fortress - 6.5
The Best of Times - 7 (mostly for the solo)
The Count of Tuscany - 8.5/9
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I don't know how a thread on SC turned into a rating BCASL thread, but whatever. :lol
Didn't ya know? It's the talk of the town!
A Nightmare to Remember - 6.5 (Beautiful Agony section really saves it from being a 5)
A Rite of Passage - 5.5
Wither - 6.5
The Shattered Fortress - 7
The Best of Times - 7.5 (solo also saves this one)
The Count of Tuscany - 9.5
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Nightmare to remember: 6
A rite of passage: 6
Wither: 8
Shattered Fortress: 9
The Best of Times: 8
Count of Tuscany: 7.9999999
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Alright, I'll bite.
A Nightmare to Remember - 8
A Rite of Passage - 5
Wither - 5.5
The Shattered Fortress - 6 (it was a bit better when I saw it live though)
The Best of Times - 6.5 (intro and outro are fantastic, otherwise it's like 3)
The Count of Tuscany - 9.5
And I think since this thread is about SC (at least the title suggests it), I'll rank SC songs too. Because, well, rankings, lists, yeah. :lol
In The Presence of Enemies - 10
Forsaken - 8.5
Constant Motion - 6.5
The Dark Eternal Night - 4
Repentance - 7.5
Prophets of War - 6.5
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 9 / 9.5
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Since BC&SL is my lowest ranked DT album, i probably would give all songs a score of 4 and lower :lol
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ANTR: 9.5
ARoP: 7.5
Wither: 8
TSF: 9
TBoT: 8.5
TCoT: 10
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BCSL:
ANTR - 9
AROP - 6
Wither - 7
TSF - 5
TBOT - 5
TCOT - 9
SC:
ITPOE - 4 (part 1 is about a 7, part 2 is probably 2)
Foresaken - 5
CM - 5
TDEN - 10
Repentance - 4
POW - 2
MOLS - 6
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In The Presence of Enemies (Part 1) - 6
Forsaken - 6
Constant Motion - 6
The Dark Eternal Night - 7
Repentance - 4
Prophets of War - 6
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 3 (my least favourite DT song ever)
In The Presence of Enemies (Part 2) - 7
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Since BC&SL is my lowest ranked DT album, i probably would give all songs a score of 4 and lower :lol
WDADU is my lowest ranked DT album, but I'd still give most of it about a 6. Except for Set the Sun, that one gets a 4 for the intro and the first part of the chorus, and the rest of it can go to hell, lol.
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Well damn, if we're actually doing SC too.
In The Presence of Enemies Part 1 - 8.5
Forsaken - 8
Constant Motion - 8.5
The Dark Eternal Night - 9
Repentance - 7.5 (would be at least an 8 if trimmed down)
Prophets of War - 6.5 (Prophets of Dance obviously gets a 9)
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 7.5 (again, would be at least an 8 if trimmed down)
In The Presence of Enemies Part 2 - 8
And for good measure, since it was mentioned, why not WDADU too?
A Fortune in Lies - 7.5
Status Seeker - 2
Ytse Jam - 7.5
The Killing Hand - 6.5
Light Fuse and Get Away - 0
Afterlife - 7.5
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - 0
Only a Matter of Time - 4
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SC is the one that actually makes sense given the thread title:
In The Presence of Enemies Part 1 - 10
Forsaken - 9
Constant Motion - 8
The Dark Eternal Night - 8
Repentance - 7
Prophets of War - 7
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 8
In The Presence of Enemies Part 2 - 9
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Listened to this album again today.
In The Presence of Enemies Pt 1 - 9
Forsaken - 6
Constant Motion - 5
The Dark Eternal Night - 4
Repentance - 8
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 5
In The Presence of Enemies Pt 2 - 8
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Meh. I don't really see what all of you are seeing. To be quite honest, I think SC is a pretty damn good album.
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Man, maybe its because ToT was my introduction to the band, but I'd take ToT over BC&SL any day of the week.
me too! I really think they nailed that one, in terms of going for a heavier album.
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Meh. I don't really see what all of you are seeing. To be quite honest, I think SC is a pretty damn good album.
I thought you thought it was amazing.