Systematic Chaos is amazing.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I love TOT, but there are way more goofy parts and attempts at being "tr00 m3t@l" on that one. BC&SL seems like a classic DT record in spirit, but people around here seem to say that about ADTOE and DT12, so what the fuck do I know?

A lot of the heavier moments on TOT feel way more sincere than on BC&SL. It had it's share of cheese, but so does every DT album. On the whole, it rarely sounded as if they were trying to force it. No part of it gets worse than

EVERYONE SURVIVED

ROOOOOOAAAAAAAAR

[DerekTheater]

Anytime the ground rules for an album are "Let's go in there and make METAL!!," you're going to have something less sincere than when the group goes in and just does their thing. Of course, both are probably very sincere albums. I don't have a device that measures sincerity so I probably shouldn't even comment.

I'm not saying that BC&SL is totally cheese-less or without flaw. It gets pretty damn silly. So did SFAM! Like you said, it's Dream Theater, after all. But I really do think it's their strongest effort after TOT (yes, better than Octavarium!), and much better than the Mangini albums.

And even though ADTOE was structured just like I&W, I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds. Even the cheesy parts sound less forced than the nu-metal-style peppering of swear words on TOT.

[Zook]

JLB rapping, QED.

Nope. Still not as bad as the roar, and although I love TSF, MP's tough guy shouting is quite lame.

[MiracleSleeper]

What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...

(rating out of 10)
-A Nightmare to Remember - 9+
-A Right of Passage - 8.5+
-Wither - 7
-The Shattered Fortress - 9.5
-The Best of Times - 9
-The Count of Tuscany - near 10

[mikeyd23]

Man, maybe its because ToT was my introduction to the band, but I'd take ToT over BC&SL any day of the week.

[Zydar]

What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...

(rating out of 10)
-A Nightmare to Remember - 9+
-A Right of Passage - 8.5+
-Wither - 7
-The Shattered Fortress - 9.5
-The Best of Times - 9
-The Count of Tuscany - near 10

This is how I would rate the songs.

A Nightmare to Remember - 6
A Rite of Passage - 6
Wither - 6
The Shattered Fortress - 4
The Best of Times - 9
The Count of Tuscany - 7

The Best Of Times is by far the best song here IMHO, while The Shattered Fortress feels like an incoherent mish-mash of bits and pieces glued together.

[hefdaddy42]

I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds.

I'm glad you really like the album, but I just don't get this at all.

[Dani Helios]

I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds.

I'm glad you really like the album, but I just don't get this at all.

Nor do I. I'd like to know where you hear this, though, as I like classic DT more than modern DT

[Bertielee]

I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds.

I'm glad you really like the album, but I just don't get this at all.

Nor do I. I'd like to know where you hear this, though, as I like classic DT more than modern DT

Thirded. BC&SL is not classic DT at all, at least imho.

B.Lee

[DerekTheater]

What I mean by "classic DT" I mean "what I enjoy the most."

I don't really care for 4 songs from Octavarium (The Answer Lies Within, These Walls, I Walk Beside You, and Never Enough, the rest is great), and I don't really dig anything from Systematic Chaos, other than ITPOE and Repentance. I thought Black Clouds sounded like a solid prog metal record, especially after two albums I thought were largely inconsistent. I know everyone disagrees, but I think BC&SL has some of their best material.

Don't get me wrong, TOT is awesome. But I never much cared for Honor Thy Father, Vacant, and I've always thought In The Name of God was a little bit too long. The only song I dislike on BC&SL is Wither.

[Outcrier]

What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...

I know everyone disagrees, but I think BC&SL has some of their best material.

It's not hate, it's just that most don't like BCSL that much, as you yourself said it 

[tiagodon]

Anytime the ground rules for an album are "Let's go in there and make METAL!!," you're going to have something less sincere than when the group goes in and just does their thing. Of course, both are probably very sincere albums. I don't have a device that measures sincerity so I probably shouldn't even comment.

I'm not saying that BC&SL is totally cheese-less or without flaw. It gets pretty damn silly. So did SFAM! Like you said, it's Dream Theater, after all. But I really do think it's their strongest effort after TOT (yes, better than Octavarium!), and much better than the Mangini albums.

And even though ADTOE was structured just like I&W, I hear more "classic DT" on Black Clouds. Even the cheesy parts sound less forced than the nu-metal-style peppering of swear words on TOT.

I´m with you, my friend! Totally agree!

[TheGreatPretender]

What's with all this BC&SL hate? I thought it was a great album...

(rating out of 10)
-A Nightmare to Remember - 9+
-A Right of Passage - 8.5+
-Wither - 7
-The Shattered Fortress - 9.5
-The Best of Times - 9
-The Count of Tuscany - near 10

This is how I would rate the songs.

A Nightmare to Remember - 6
A Rite of Passage - 6
Wither - 6
The Shattered Fortress - 4
The Best of Times - 9
The Count of Tuscany - 7

The Best Of Times is by far the best song here IMHO, while The Shattered Fortress feels like an incoherent mish-mash of bits and pieces glued together.

All in all, it's a great album, but in the grand scheme of DT, it's got a fairly low average compared to the others. There are just moments that bring it down so much.

A Nightmare to Remember - 6.5
A Rite of Passage - 6.5
Wither - 7
The Shattered Fortress - 9
The Best of Times - 5
The Count of Tuscany - 8.5

DTF! Where we'll take any opportunity we can to rate stuff, even if it has nothing to do with the topic at hand! 

[Grizz]

8.5, 6.5, 7, 8.5, 8, 9.5

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know how a thread on SC turned into a rating BCASL thread, but whatever.

A Nightmare to Remember - 8.5
A Rite of Passage - 8
Wither - 8.5
The Shattered Fortress - 6.5
The Best of Times - 7 (mostly for the solo)
The Count of Tuscany - 8.5/9

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I don't know how a thread on SC turned into a rating BCASL thread, but whatever.

Didn't ya know? It's the talk of the town!

A Nightmare to Remember - 6.5 (Beautiful Agony section really saves it from being a 5)
A Rite of Passage - 5.5
Wither - 6.5
The Shattered Fortress - 7
The Best of Times - 7.5 (solo also saves this one)
The Count of Tuscany - 9.5

[Dani Helios]

Nightmare to remember: 6
A rite of passage: 6
Wither: 8
Shattered Fortress: 9
The Best of Times: 8
Count of Tuscany: 7.9999999

[Evermind]

Alright, I'll bite.

A Nightmare to Remember - 8
A Rite of Passage - 5
Wither - 5.5
The Shattered Fortress - 6 (it was a bit better when I saw it live though)
The Best of Times - 6.5 (intro and outro are fantastic, otherwise it's like 3)
The Count of Tuscany - 9.5

And I think since this thread is about SC (at least the title suggests it), I'll rank SC songs too. Because, well, rankings, lists, yeah. 

In The Presence of Enemies - 10
Forsaken - 8.5
Constant Motion - 6.5
The Dark Eternal Night - 4
Repentance - 7.5
Prophets of War - 6.5
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 9 / 9.5

[Outcrier]

Since BC&SL is my lowest ranked DT album, i probably would give all songs a score of 4 and lower 

[JiM-Xtreme]

ANTR: 9.5
ARoP: 7.5
Wither: 8
TSF: 9
TBoT: 8.5
TCoT: 10

[jammindude]

BCSL:

ANTR - 9
AROP - 6
Wither - 7
TSF - 5
TBOT - 5
TCOT - 9

SC:

ITPOE - 4 (part 1 is about a 7, part 2 is probably 2)
Foresaken - 5
CM - 5
TDEN - 10
Repentance - 4
POW - 2
MOLS - 6

[Zydar]

In The Presence of Enemies (Part 1) - 6
Forsaken - 6
Constant Motion - 6
The Dark Eternal Night - 7
Repentance - 4
Prophets of War - 6
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 3 (my least favourite DT song ever)
In The Presence of Enemies (Part 2) - 7

[TheGreatPretender]

Since BC&SL is my lowest ranked DT album, i probably would give all songs a score of 4 and lower 

WDADU is my lowest ranked DT album, but I'd still give most of it about a 6. Except for Set the Sun, that one gets a 4 for the intro and the first part of the chorus, and the rest of it can go to hell, lol.

[BlobVanDam]

Well damn, if we're actually doing SC too.

In The Presence of Enemies Part 1 - 8.5
Forsaken - 8
Constant Motion - 8.5
The Dark Eternal Night - 9
Repentance - 7.5 (would be at least an 8 if trimmed down)
Prophets of War - 6.5 (Prophets of Dance obviously gets a 9)
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 7.5 (again, would be at least an 8 if trimmed down)
In The Presence of Enemies Part 2 - 8

And for good measure, since it was mentioned, why not WDADU too?

A Fortune in Lies - 7.5
Status Seeker - 2
Ytse Jam - 7.5
The Killing Hand - 6.5
Light Fuse and Get Away - 0
Afterlife - 7.5
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - 0
Only a Matter of Time - 4

[TheGreatPretender]

SC is the one that actually makes sense given the thread title:

In The Presence of Enemies Part 1 - 10
Forsaken - 9
Constant Motion - 8
The Dark Eternal Night - 8
Repentance - 7
Prophets of War - 7
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 8
In The Presence of Enemies Part 2 - 9

[DerekTheater]

Listened to this album again today.

In The Presence of Enemies Pt 1 - 9
Forsaken - 6
Constant Motion - 5
The Dark Eternal Night - 4
Repentance - 8
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 5
In The Presence of Enemies Pt 2 - 8

[XB0BX]

Meh. I don't really see what all of you are seeing. To be quite honest, I think SC is a pretty damn good album.

[weezul]

Man, maybe its because ToT was my introduction to the band, but I'd take ToT over BC&SL any day of the week.

me too! I really think they nailed that one, in terms of going for a heavier album.

[hefdaddy42]

Meh. I don't really see what all of you are seeing. To be quite honest, I think SC is a pretty damn good album.

I thought you thought it was amazing.