New Live Release: BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL discussion thread

[gmillerdrake]

Every problem everyone has had with the sound, I've somehow managed to not suffer. Everything sounds good on my end.

It sounds like an under produced live album (or a great sounding bootleg), and that's OK with me. If I'm listening to a live album, I want it to sound live. Too much polish on a live album makes it lose its authenticity.

Yeah....that's the aspect I like most about it. The 'real' feel about the whole show. I don't think any DVD they release will top Budakon as my favorite but this one is already a close second and I've only heard/seen half the set.

[goo-goo]

Every problem everyone has had with the sound, I've somehow managed to not suffer. Everything sounds good on my end.

It sounds like an under produced live album (or a great sounding bootleg), and that's OK with me. If I'm listening to a live album, I want it to sound live. Too much polish on a live album makes it lose its authenticity.

It sounds like a great sounding bootleg, which is not bad. Reminds me of the Once In A Livetime release which I loved every single second of it. I guess my main concern on this release is JP's massive muddy guitar sound where you can't distinguish what he is playing.

[Zydar]

Just watched the Blu-Ray and Illumination Theory is just.... wow. The closing SFAM part was brilliant as well. One of their very best DVDs, if not THE best.

[Podaar]

That's it folks. Zydar gives it two eyebrow raises!

We're done here.

Someone switch off the lights on your way out.

[GentlemanofDread]

Actually if I have one complaint about the DVD, it's the fact I can't see the Shattered Fortress and Strange Deja Vu concert films. Ah well. Only complaint I've got.

[Zydar]

That's it folks. Zydar gives it two eyebrow raises!

We're done here.

Someone switch off the lights on your way out.

 

[Podaar]

Oh, one thing that bares mentioning. I was nearly as stoked to see Blob's work in highres as I was to see this concert. I was completely floored at the quality of the FAS video. In fact, I'm a bit disappointed we did have an extra feature with all his in song videos.

Great job Blob!!

[Dream Team]

Haven't watched the whole thing yet, but JP's tone  why? how? why?

[Zook]

Haven't watched the whole thing yet, but JP's tone  why? how? why?

"Three excellent questions". - Giles

[dparrott]

I have sampled some songs through legal sources, but hell. People who are saying that this is a good sounding release. Please, man, please. For the sake of future audio, don't praise this kind of stuff too much. Don't encourage engineers and bands to make their music sound like this. It has close to zero dynamic range. I have audio meters in my mixing desk, and they're standing still all the time! Basically, like listening to a FM broadcast. Who on earth mastered this one? Didn't some of the guys in DT say (I guess it was Jordan?) that they were abandoning the 'loudness war' for once and for all? First DT12, and now even live their live releases are mega compressed?

Isn't that one reason for the HDTracks?  non-HD for iphones, etc, HD for better equipment?

Glad that a HD version is out right away.  They're slowly getting it!

[Milzinga]

Really wish I could buy the CDs for this!!

[aurorablind]

I love the Blu-Ray.
I´ve seen the whole thing twice and plugged in my high-quality headphones, and I love the audio on this! The orchestra could have been louder at times, but as a whole - its great!

My biggest complaint - THE MENU! I am colorblind, and I just can´t see which act/song/audio-setting I´m selecting.
It´s fucking annoying!!
Dream Theater just don´t care about handicapped people!!!!! 


(that was a joke)

But, really.. I seriously have to guess what song I´m selecting 

[SeRoX]

You guys seem to praise IT more than other performances but man, that Scarred is just simply perfect. James nails it!

[aurorablind]

James really shines on this release! 

[TAC]

On my second time through the DVD.
My thoughts:
1. Mangini KILLS IT! I posted that already. I realize the drum torch was passed already, but this performance is the exclamation point.
2. This show was a very good night for James on this tour, but I don't know if he was THIS good. Not calling shenanigans, but this is definitely enhanced. That's OK. James OWNS this performance and this live document has to rival his performance on Score. Truly incredible.
3. Seeing DT many times, you never really know which JP you are going to get. On this show, we got the "serious" JP. But I think he knew what was at stake for the recording of this. He nailed all of his solos this night, especially the Space Dye Vest one. But I also feel that his chest tapping at the end during the final bow was as sincere and emotional as I've ever witnessed from JP.
4. I said this after the show, but it's clear that JM is one happy guy. He seems to LOVE playing with Mangini.

[Randaran]

A bit strange that I haven't been able to find the dvd or blu ray in Austin. I tried a couple of Best Buys and one FYE and was not lucky. Still waiting for the RR bundle to arrive in the mail. I'll try a Barnes and Noble today and see if its available. It's the first time I've had problems finding a DT release.

Any luck? I could not find it at Best Buy or a few other stores, and Barnes and Noble is the only place near me that sells Blurays I have not yet tried.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I love the Blu-Ray.
I´ve seen the whole thing twice and plugged in my high-quality headphones, and I love the audio on this! The orchestra could have been louder at times, but as a whole - its great!

My biggest complaint - THE MENU! I am colorblind, and I just can´t see which act/song/audio-setting I´m selecting.
It´s fucking annoying!!
Dream Theater just don´t care about handicapped people!!!!! 


(that was a joke)

But, really.. I seriously have to guess what song I´m selecting 

I thought that was a Mike Portnoy quote.

For realz.

[Grizz]

I have sampled some songs through legal sources, but hell. People who are saying that this is a good sounding release. Please, man, please. For the sake of future audio, don't praise this kind of stuff too much. Don't encourage engineers and bands to make their music sound like this. It has close to zero dynamic range. I have audio meters in my mixing desk, and they're standing still all the time! Basically, like listening to a FM broadcast. Who on earth mastered this one? Didn't some of the guys in DT say (I guess it was Jordan?) that they were abandoning the 'loudness war' for once and for all? First DT12, and now even live their live releases are mega compressed?

Isn't that one reason for the HDTracks?  non-HD for iphones, etc, HD for better equipment?

Glad that a HD version is out right away.  They're slowly getting it!

The HD is imperceptible. Red book CD is as good as sound can get to human ears if done right. In DTXII's case the CD was done wrong but HDTracks right. Here they're apparently both done wrong.

[gm5k]

Any luck? I could not find it at Best Buy or a few other stores, and Barnes and Noble is the only place near me that sells Blurays I have not yet tried.

I got one at Best Buy yesterday.  I couldn't find it in the store, and an employee had to go to the back/storage area to look for it.  Took him like 15 minutes, but I got it 

Not sure why they wouldn't quickly put a Bluray on the shelves from a band that does so well with their concert DVD/Blurays.  I guess a lot of DT fans order online anyway.

[PixelDream]

It's really stupid that people who prefer some dynamic range have to buy the HDtracks version. Is there a HDtracks Blu-Ray? No.

Dream Theater have never been known to have high dynamic range. I&W, Awake and to a lesser extent FII have nice dynamic range. Records up until Octavarium had increased compression and limiting, but I still don't mind those. It's Systematic Chaos where it really went out of the window. Surprisingly, ADTOE had a soft mastering job, but the drum recording sounded weak.

I'll never understand why it's impossible for DT to make a high quality recording like Awake or FII these days. Even Six Degrees. Imagine a new DT release with that type of sound quality. What's so difficult about it? Is it really Kevin Shirley that we need?

[Lucien]

Yeah, I never really understood why the can't just make a great sounding album. Unless this sound quality is their vision, which would be a huge  moment for me.

[Randaran]

I got one at Best Buy yesterday.  I couldn't find it in the store, and an employee had to go to the back/storage area to look for it.  Took him like 15 minutes, but I got it 

Thank; I'll try that later today.

[TAC]

Oh, and WTF is up with the graphics over Scarred. What is this, The Beat Club

[Madman Shepherd]

I finally get to give my opinion!!!

So here I go. 

In a word it is AMAZING!

THE GOOD: 

Mangini! 
-The drum sound - Perfect.  I seriously have nothing but praise for the sound of the drums on this album. 
James!
-This is probably his finest performance from a live album.  I am totally aware of what I am saying and I realize Score and Budokan exist.  This is James more raw and yet nearly flawless than anything else we have one a live recording. 
With that said, there was some discussion about the vocals being a bit flat at time.  Ya know what?  I heard that a few times and I realize I LOVE IT!  Yeah, I love that his performance was not totally perfect because it sounds real.  It also shows that they didn't overdo it with autotune/pitch correction. 
The Setlist!
-I've mentioned it before but this is about as good as a setlist as you can get in 2014
The orchestra/choir!
- What they did was great and I love what they added
James LaBrie Jibba Jabba
-"How in the Hell do you dance to the mirror?"  "You don't like that one?  I know, its not my favorite either. "  Fucking classic!

THE BAD:
The mix
-not the best.  Then again, it does give it a bit more of that raw bootleg feel but I just feel like the guitar/vocals/bass get varied at various times.  When they are not buried then I think the mix is perfect.  The Mirror is a good example of how the mix occasionally works for some songs.  On that same token, I had trouble hearing the orchestra and choir
The guitar/bass sound
- Yeah, its not horrible but it lacks a lot of the aggression you want to hear.  Again I should say that some songs like the Mirror the sound actually works pretty good

THE UGLY:
- Nothing.  In fact "THE BAD" should really be changed to "Minor quibbles"



This release fucking rules! 

[TAC]

How lucky to be in the chorus standing behind Mangini. Even though my lines were basically "Ooh" and Ahh", I still would've fucked them up!

[Randaran]

It worked. 

I got my Bluray, and will be watching later tonight. I have already seen Illumination Theory, and I really like the subtly altered vocal melodies and the Wah solo at the end of Pursuit of Truth. The latter in particular is better than on DT12. Cannot wait to see the rest.

[Xenon]

The "movie" on screen during the encore are the work of someone, here? They're amazing, I would say it was Lasse Hoile's work, but maybe I'm wrong.
In any case great job. All of them are great.

[TheAtliator]

Just watched. WOW What a  ing phenomenal release.

That was seriously awesome.

[PetFish]

I haven't been able to rip the audio from the Blu-Ray.  I get an error about BD+ or something.  Little help?

[Zook]

I haven't been able to rip the audio from the Blu-Ray.  I get an error about BD+ or something.  Little help?

If you were a real "fan" you'd buy the limited edition with the audio CDs.



PetDick.

[JayOctavarium]

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Just popped it in. MM is killing it. The whole band sounds great

[TheAtliator]

Okay this doesn't really belong in this thread because it's really in regard to several releases, not just this one.. but a guy in charge said so, so here we go.


To the person pitch-correcting LaBrie's Voice-

AT LEAST TUNE HIM TO THE RIGHT NOTE

Thought he was flat on that C#? That's because he's singing a C natural. If you tune him to a C#, you are literally making the listener hear a wrong note that the singer originally performed correctly. Not to mention that it will suddenly make it sound like we're listening to a singing robot leprechaun.

This happened at least 7 or 8 times on this Blu-Ray. Usually during the most climactic and high vocal parts of the song.

Thank you for being literally the only problem with what is otherwise a perfect live release of the greatest band in the world.

I didn't notice that at all, point out where it happens?

Happily.

--"Boston I'm all alone" (Lie) : the word "Boston" should have been A4 then Ab4. It was tuned to two A4s.

--"Never come near me again" (SDV) : should be A, Bb, G, A, Bb, G, A (respectively per each syllable) but was instead tuned to G, A, G, A, A, G, A.

--RIDICULOUS- "Lifting Shadows off a Dream" (the first chorus): "Dream" was tuned to A4 instead of F#4. NOT EVEN CLOSE. He does this F# with his signature breathy wide vibrato, which is supposed to give it the effect of sliding to a higher note, so whoever did this crap job misinterpreted and tuned it to the 5th of the chord rather than the 3rd. It's not musically wrong, just not what he sang, or what is actually in the song.

--"I'll never trust you again" (Mirror) : should be Bb for "I'll never" and A for "trust you again", but was just made into an A the whole time. This mistake was made both choruses (the other one being "Living life so pretend"), probably because whoever was tuning this didn't know what the note was supposed to be.

--Another really bad one, very easy to hear- "Living in fear" (Second chorus of Mirror) should be a Bb for "Living" but it was tuned to a B natural. This is exactly what I mean when I say "Thought he was flat on that C#? That's because he's singing a C natural", but in this case it's a B and a Bb.

--"And I'll smile and I'll learn to pretend" and "And I'll have no more dreams to defend" (SDV) Were both tuned to end on an F4, when they should both be E4. (It is possible that this one was done purposely, but it doesn't sound like it)

--"Not with in his eyes to see, open up, open up / Not much better than the man you hate" (ToT) : "eyes", both "op"s, and "man" were all tuned to C#5, whereas some of them should be C5 natural, or somewhere in between C and C# for the bluesy effect. (On the studio album they are NOT strait C#'s, nor was he ever going for that. It is common for to slide between the 4 and 5 on a pentatonic scale)

--a lot of small things such as "With my thoughts wrapped around me" (ToT) : thoughts was tuned to F# when it should have been an F natural. Even if he was originally slightly sharp on that F, it's still incorrect to tune it to an F# if you are going to tune it in the first place.

--GLARINGLY OBVIOUS- "People in prayer for me, everyone there for me" (Scarred) Should be F# on both "people in prayer" and "everyone there", but the latter was tuned to G. This is an example of something he might have been slightly sharp on, but I guarantee whatever he sang was a hell of a lot closer to an F# than the G you hear in this recording. (Meaning that even if you want them to pitch-correct it to hear a perfect recording, they could have tuned it to an F# and at least it would have been correct)

--"Wash your hands of regret" (the first one) (Scarred) : hands was tuned up to F#4 when it should have been an F4 (a prime example of a note he probably actually nailed live)

Haven't watched the blu-ray yet, but just curious...you're sure you are saying he actually sang the correct note and that an editor changed it to an incorrect note?

How do you know he didn't just sing an incorrect note and do you really think the band hired and approved the changes of someone that incompetent?

Absolutely sure. Because if you look at the examples, they are all notes that he hits a certain way every night of the tour. Even if he hit them all flat or sharp the night of the DVD, it probably wouldn't be enough to make it a different note, or even if it was enough, it would not make it closer to the note that they chose to tune it to. Such as "Hands" in that last example- even if he was sharp or flat on that F, it would not make it better to tune it to an F# because it is outside of the chord they are playing. Whoever was tuning his voice probably thought that note was supposed to stay on an F# because the chord they are playing is not a natural chord in the key (F# is the natural note in the key, but they use an F natural in the song when they go to the out-of-scale chord on that line). PLUS, you know that he didn't accidentally hit an F# because if you listen close enough, you can usually tell exactly which notes were tampered with due the unnatural sound of pitch correction, and I can hear it on these specific notes.

Those two things combined make me absolutely sure.

However, there are also examples of what you're talking about too, where he would hit something not quite on any note, so they would find one near by. I personally don't ever think that sounds good, but that's just personal preference. As opposed to the thing I am talking about in this thread, which is purely objective.

You can bring this into the main thread for the release given you can actually provide some sort of evidence for your underlying claim that there is pitch correction going on.

The evidence of the statement I am making: written right up there^.
The evidence that there's pitch correction (you've got to be kidding me): Listen to any high vocal part on the DVD for 10 seconds. If you don't hear pitch correction, you don't know what pitch correction sounds like. That's not an insult, I'm not calling anyone stupid for not knowing what pitch correction sounds like! But if you don't hear it here, you are clearly unaware.

Pitch correction- listening school, for those who are curious

If you want to know what it sounds like when it isn't done smoothly, listen to Another Day on the Happy Holidays release. Notice how you'll hear every word snap from one pitch to another without ever sliding between them, unlike any other song on that release. This even applies to the end a word like "here" in that song where a singer might naturally say "heeeree-aaahh", and with pitch correction, you'll notice that the "uuh" snaps to pitches in the scale as well, rather than just naturally sliding down atonally. You also know for a fact that that is pitch corrected because there was a recording of that song from that very night posted on youtube and shared on this website months before that was ever released officially.

Now, apply that same concept and listening exercise to this DVD, and you'll hear the same thing, just done much more carefully and smoothly, as it is generally not applied to the "uuh"s at the end of words, and it is done manually so that there is some sliding time between the notes. However, it is still there throughout the course of each word. You can also listen to every other recording of Trial of Tears from this tour and notice how you will not find one single recording where James hits a C#5 on all four "eyes", "op","op", and "man", if any at all. However his mouth clearly matches what you are hearing on this DVD at this section, so you can know it was tuned, and not overdubbed (re-recorded).

[gmillerdrake]

TheAtliator.......seriously? I mean....I get that you and a bunch of other guys here 'know' your stuff when it comes to the audio side of music and all but c'mon....this is a FANTASTIC release...the band is jammin' all as one...every member is on there game....it's an INCREDIBLE live concert. It's a bummer some of you guys who love to tell the rest of us how horrible it is will never enjoy it.


I originally popped in to say as I sit here and watch it MM is owning the AWAKE songs and the AWAKE songs in general sound unreal....such a great concert. These guys put it all on the line that night and it shows big time.

[King Postwhore]

Dear God, you'll never enjoy life if you nitpick like this.  It reads like the Unibomber's manifesto.