How do you rate Mangini's work on the latest album?

[Podaar]

I don't want to turn this into a drummer bashing thread but check this out :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWc2tu6Np_8

To me - that's the perfect balance between Portnoy's swing and Mangini's technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUA_n04C1bs

That for me makes good drumming.

Meh, too precise. They play just like that robot Mangini. I'm tired of all these drummer who keep accurate rhythms. Can't we get back to real rock drumming?

[bl5150]

Now we're talking.................swing 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

You guys clearly have no idea what swing is.

[Kotowboy]

Further proof that Keith Moon is one of the shittiest drummers ever.



And yes - by "swing" i of course meant feel.

[jmasterx]

I don't want to turn this into a drummer bashing thread but check this out :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWc2tu6Np_8

To me - that's the perfect balance between Portnoy's swing and Mangini's technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUA_n04C1bs

That for me makes good drumming.

Gavin is amazing. Definitely one of my absolute favorite drummers.

[sylvinception]

Almost perfect work.

Awful drum mix.

[Podaar]

And yes - by "swing" i of course meant feel.

My observation is that Mangini "feels" precision and puts a lot of "emotion" into being robotic.

[Shumpun]

I gave him a 9. As a drummer who studied with Mike for 2 years, let me break down the fill at 1:22 or so of Enemy Inside. I challenge the drummers out there to try and play this- something that might sound simple to some and "uncreative". Many don't understand how hard it is to play what he wrote.

Key: 6T= 6 inch tom 8T= 8 inch tom 10T= 10 inch tom 12T= 12 inch tom SN=Snare BD=Bass Drum

The fill is a series of 24 notes which are 16th note triplets with each tom note played with one hand- the triplet arc of it follows Petrucci's guitar riff under it. The way he played it allows the snare to still be on the 2 and 4 of the beat with the sixtuplet descending tom note fill happening around it simultaneously. It would be much easier to play if the snare was not placed where it was but he did it to keep the 4/4 beat rolling under the fill. Nobody in the world writes/plays fills like this. Most of us don't have the independence/coordination to play this.

To break it down:
First 12 notes in pattern: 6T6T BDBD 8T8T SNBD 10T10T BDBD 
Second 12 notes in patterns: 8T8T BDBD 10T10T SNBD 12T12T BDBD

[Tis BOOLsheet]

What people mean when they say "swing", or "groove" especially, is basically that MP plays with a lot of feeling that some of us feel MM really lacks. It's not something necessarily quantifiable, he just sounds (as you say) "robotic".

The reality is MP and MM just plays differently. Each drummer plays differently from other drummers, especially for those who are confident and assured of their individuality. I do not see the need to describe MM as not creative, or not having swing, or not having groove - terms that have specific meanings in music - when the only reason you really need to say is that you do not like his style and your taste leans more towards MP, or Gavin Harrison, or Thomas Lang, or Virgil Donati. Period. When people start using terms that have specific meanings, then it becomes something arguable.

It is true that I don't care for his style. That by itself, however, is kind of an uninteresting comment that does not lend itself to discussion (the point of a forum, after all). Therefore, I give specific reasons why I dislike aspects of Mangini's playing. I haven't bashed him, or said anything bad about him, heck, I think the guy's one of the coolest and nicest people ever.

Actually the word "swing" has a long understood meaning -- as the dictionary supports -- that can has historic roots we can trace to a specific time period and place in this country. Contrary to your belief, it is not merely a generic term that takes on different meanings depending on the whim of the person who uses it. Likewise, it not a substitute for any other broad terms that are difficult to define or for a particular feeling that one feels when he listens to his MP. It doesn't change to mean those things just because someone thinks its a convenient way to describe the esoteric elements of your favorite drummers playing.

When you say that MP plays with swing -- whether or not you think you are you are referencing a distinct genre of music and of way of playing. Ironically, this style actually exists in total isolation of MP's work. It is a total absurdity to suggest or outright say he EVER played with that style. It is patently false. There is no debate about this lol. Swing has never been and never will be a characteristic of MP or MM's drumming. By the way, neither of these guys is a groover either. Anyone who thinks that MP "grooved" clearly has little exposure to drummers to whose style groove is a key element (see Bernard Purdie, for example). If anything, and quite ironically, MM is actually better at this than MP.

Again, there are totally valid reasons to prefer MP to MM. I think even those of us who prefer MM, will acknowledge and respect that on this forum. But there is also frivolity and non-sense and misstatement and lack of understanding. I think we should not perpetuate this and attempt to be more accurate in our assessments. I can only imagine if someone came in here and said something off-the-wall like "you know, JP is ok in DT but he doesn't play with enough swing on DT12." And yet, in the minds of some, that would be a perfectly sensible assessment.

We should share intelligent opinions, mere preferences and facts about music and musicians, instead of coddling literally any and anything that'll come out of a person, no matter how completely ridiculous  and/or inaccurate it is.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Believe it or not, people sometimes use words to mean things other than their age-old dictionary definition. It is often called "slang".

I think you're getting too bent out of shape over semantics.

[erwinrafael]

Believe it or not, people sometimes use words to mean things other than their age-old dictionary definition. It is often called "slang".

I think you're getting too bent out of shape over semantics.

We're not even referring to a dictionary definition. Who uses "swing' the way that you are using it in this forum other than two to three posters? Even slang has a certain level of general acceptability.

[erwinrafael]

I gave him a 9. As a drummer who studied with Mike for 2 years, let me break down the fill at 1:22 or so of Enemy Inside. I challenge the drummers out there to try and play this- something that might sound simple to some and "uncreative". Many don't understand how hard it is to play what he wrote.

Key: 6T= 6 inch tom 8T= 8 inch tom 10T= 10 inch tom 12T= 12 inch tom SN=Snare BD=Bass Drum

The fill is a series of 24 notes which are 16th note triplets with each tom note played with one hand- the triplet arc of it follows Petrucci's guitar riff under it. The way he played it allows the snare to still be on the 2 and 4 of the beat with the sixtuplet descending tom note fill happening around it simultaneously. It would be much easier to play if the snare was not placed where it was but he did it to keep the 4/4 beat rolling under the fill. Nobody in the world writes/plays fills like this. Mosy of us don't have the independence/coordination to play this.

To break it down:
First 12 notes in pattern: 6T6T BDBD 8T8T SNBD 10T10T BDBD 
Second 12 notes in patterns: 8T8T BDBD 10T10T SNBD 12T12T BDBD

Yes, that was a great melodic roll. You rarely hear rolls that do not just ascend and descend but actually follows the melody of the riff. When I heard that, I smiled. 

[The Stray Seed]

I gave him a 9. As a drummer who studied with Mike for 2 years, let me break down the fill at 1:22 or so of Enemy Inside. I challenge the drummers out there to try and play this- something that might sound simple to some and "uncreative". Many don't understand how hard it is to play what he wrote.

Key: 6T= 6 inch tom 8T= 8 inch tom 10T= 10 inch tom 12T= 12 inch tom SN=Snare BD=Bass Drum

The fill is a series of 24 notes which are 16th note triplets with each tom note played with one hand- the triplet arc of it follows Petrucci's guitar riff under it. The way he played it allows the snare to still be on the 2 and 4 of the beat with the sixtuplet descending tom note fill happening around it simultaneously. It would be much easier to play if the snare was not placed where it was but he did it to keep the 4/4 beat rolling under the fill. Nobody in the world writes/plays fills like this. Mosy of us don't have the independence/coordination to play this.

To break it down:
First 12 notes in pattern: 6T6T BDBD 8T8T SNBD 10T10T BDBD 
Second 12 notes in patterns: 8T8T BDBD 10T10T SNBD 12T12T BDBD

Actually the word "swing" has a long understood meaning -- as the dictionary supports -- that can has historic roots we can trace to a specific time period and place in this country. Contrary to your belief, it is not merely a generic term that takes on different meanings depending on the whim of the person who uses it. Likewise, it not a substitute for any other broad terms that are difficult to define or for a particular feeling that one feels when he listens to his MP. It doesn't change to mean those things just because someone thinks its a convenient way to describe the esoteric elements of your favorite drummers playing.

When you say that MP plays with swing -- whether or not you think you are you are referencing a distinct genre of music and of way of playing. Ironically, this style actually exists in total isolation of MP's work. It is a total absurdity to suggest or outright say he EVER played with that style. It is patently false. There is no debate about this lol. Swing has never been and never will be a characteristic of MP or MM's drumming. By the way, neither of these guys is a groover either. Anyone who thinks that MP "grooved" clearly has little exposure to drummers to whose style groove is a key element (see Bernard Purdie, for example). If anything, and quite ironically, MM is actually better at this than MP.

Again, there are totally valid reasons to prefer MP to MM. I think even those of us who prefer MM, will acknowledge and respect that on this forum. But there is also frivolity and non-sense and misstatement and lack of understanding. I think we should not perpetuate this and attempt to be more accurate in our assessments. I can only imagine if someone came in here and said something off-the-wall like "you know, JP is ok in DT but he doesn't play with enough swing on DT12." And yet, in the minds of some, that would be a perfectly sensible assessment.

We should share intelligent opinions, mere preferences and facts about music and musicians, instead of coddling literally any and anything that'll come out of a person, no matter how completely ridiculous  and/or inaccurate it is.

Two great posts! Thank you so much guys for providing in-depth informations, they are totally welcome and help us appreciate and expand our music knowledge!

[hefdaddy42]

Believe it or not, people sometimes use words to mean things other than their age-old dictionary definition. It is often called "slang".

I think you're getting too bent out of shape over semantics.

Not really.  It's about clear communication, something which is important in everyday life, but even more so on a forum, where all we have to go on is the words you type, not your vocal inflections or gesticulations.  The way you are apparently using "swing" just isn't accurate.  You can't just use a word incorrectly and then get out of it by calling it slang.

If you are going to use a musical term on a forum populated by musicians and music nerds, you need to at least be close to the right meaning.

[Invisible]

Since we're here with people who seem to have a deep understanding of drumming, what would you define "groove"? I'm a non-native english speaker and I always have difficulties to understand that meaning. I thought for instance, 6:00 or Lines In The Sand or Just Let Me Breathe had groove, but now I'm not sure. Some one kind enough to enlighten me? 

As for the melodic way of Mangini, I completely understood when I heard some of his isolated drum stems on DT songs, you can actually know where JP or JR makes a run or guess how the bass is pounding based on solely his playing, and that's awesome on itself.

[erwinrafael]

Since we're here with people who seem to have a deep understanding of drumming, what would you define "groove"? I'm a non-native english speaker and I always have difficulties to understand that meaning. I thought for instance, 6:00 or Lines In The Sand or Just Let Me Breathe had groove, but now I'm not sure. Some one kind enough to enlighten me? 

There is indeed some groove drumming in 6:00. The best way to describe groove drumming for me is to refer you to Jeff Porcaro's drumming in the song Rosanna by Toto. Some would say that Ringo Starr's work in Come Together is groove drumming and I agree.

As for the melodic way of Mangini, I completely understood when I heard some of his isolated drum stems on DT songs, you can actually know where JP or JR makes a run or guess how the bass is pounding based on solely his playing, and that's awesome on itself.

Exactly. And that is what I have been saying as orchestral drumming. I love how he does this even for the slow parts like the outro guitar solo of Illumination Theory.

[hefdaddy42]

Groove is kind of like a repeated section that has a pulse, a feel to it, that makes you want to move.  IMO, it's difficult for a drummer to have or display groove if the musicians around him don't have a groove, either.  And since it makes you feel like moving (you know it when you hear it because when you hear it you feel it), it lends itself most often to more popular time signatures like 4/4 or 6/8 (not to say that it can't be done in other time sigs, but it isn't as common).  Frankly, with a band like DT, you just aren't going to have very many songs that have parts that groove, no matter who is playing drums.  There are a few songs I can think of with sections that groove (TTT, LITS, 6:00, I think parts of IT), but it just doesn't happen as much in prog.

[mikeyd23]

I gave him a 9. As a drummer who studied with Mike for 2 years, let me break down the fill at 1:22 or so of Enemy Inside. I challenge the drummers out there to try and play this- something that might sound simple to some and "uncreative". Many don't understand how hard it is to play what he wrote.

Key: 6T= 6 inch tom 8T= 8 inch tom 10T= 10 inch tom 12T= 12 inch tom SN=Snare BD=Bass Drum

The fill is a series of 24 notes which are 16th note triplets with each tom note played with one hand- the triplet arc of it follows Petrucci's guitar riff under it. The way he played it allows the snare to still be on the 2 and 4 of the beat with the sixtuplet descending tom note fill happening around it simultaneously. It would be much easier to play if the snare was not placed where it was but he did it to keep the 4/4 beat rolling under the fill. Nobody in the world writes/plays fills like this. Mosy of us don't have the independence/coordination to play this.

To break it down:
First 12 notes in pattern: 6T6T BDBD 8T8T SNBD 10T10T BDBD 
Second 12 notes in patterns: 8T8T BDBD 10T10T SNBD 12T12T BDBD

Really interesting post, thanks for sharing that knowledge!

[Invisible]

That's what I associated groove with, things like funk that you can sort of dance or move to, but I wasn't sure after seeing other definitions, so thanks!

[Kotowboy]

  Dear God.

I innocently dropped in a colloquialism to imply that I thought MP had a touch more feel than Mangini ...

...and I accidentally started a whole new debate about language and semantics

I forgot I was on a prog forum for a second.

My Bad

[emtee]

The fill mentioned may be difficult to play but it just sounds like a traditional two handed roll done quickly.  There is nothing
memorable to me about that fill.

[ReaPsTA]

The fill mentioned may be difficult to play but it just sounds like a traditional two handed roll done quickly.  There is nothing
memorable to me about that fill.

I was going to write a purposely satirical post like this, and then you wrote a real one that's even more ridiculous.

Good job?

[KevShmev]

What people mean when they say "swing", or "groove" especially, is basically that MP plays with a lot of feeling that some of us feel MM really lacks.

That doesn't make any sense.

Believe it or not, people sometimes use words to mean things other than their age-old dictionary definition. It is often called "slang".

I think you're getting too bent out of shape over semantics.

Not really.  It's about clear communication, something which is important in everyday life, but even more so on a forum, where all we have to go on is the words you type, not your vocal inflections or gesticulations.  The way you are apparently using "swing" just isn't accurate.  You can't just use a word incorrectly and then get out of it by calling it slang.

If you are going to use a musical term on a forum populated by musicians and music nerds, you need to at least be close to the right meaning.

Exactly.

[Kotowboy]

Mangini doesn't play drums with one stick back to front.


How's that ?

[emtee]

The fill mentioned may be difficult to play but it just sounds like a traditional two handed roll done quickly.  There is nothing
memorable to me about that fill.

I was going to write a purposely satirical post like this, and then you wrote a real one that's even more ridiculous.

Good job?

Different eyes see different things
Different hearts beat on different strings

Glad you dig the fill.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Just because it's hard to play doesn't mean it sounds good.

[AngelBack]

I'll take a stab at this, more experienced drummers may want to add or correct.

Groove involves playing with dynamics and creating a "feel" that the music is more lively and catchy in a rhythmic way.  Usually accomplished by some emphasis on the upbeat and accents on the 1 and 3 vs solely emphasizing the 2 and 4 in 4/4 and in a lot of rock music.

It is a psycho-acoustic reaction to an emphasis on a part of the beat that makes the listener feel there is more catchy, rhythmic energy to the music.

Another example of the way a drummer can influence the "feel" of a song is by playing around the beat.  As Jack Black said, "If you could use a microscope to find the beat down to an atom, that is where Neil Peart plays".  Therefore a feeling of precision in his style.  But now think of the beat as 1/4 inch in width.  If you play the beat at the start of the width of the beat, you are "on top" of the beat and this gives an energetic, almost rushed feel to the music without changing the tempo.  Likewise, if you play on the beat toward the back side of the 1/4 inch wide beat, you create a more laid back, relaxed feel without changing the actual tempo.

[ReaPsTA]

Different eyes see different things
Different hearts beat on different strings

Glad you dig the fill.

I just don't understand how on one hand you have guys who clearly actually understand music theory, and on the other hand you have other guys who just don't like it, and the latter group wants both sides to be taken equally seriously.

I'm aware that expert problems exist.  Just because you know a lot doesn't mean that knowledge has any value.

But in what world does saying "I don't like it" have the same value as actually studying and understanding music?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

How does understanding music give your opinion on whether or not something's good any more value? It's all opinion.

[jakepriest]

I don't care about the theory or purpose of a drum hit. I care about how it sounds and the feeling it gives me. And I find Mangini's work on DT12 boring to my ears.

[Kotowboy]

I don't care about the theory or purpose of a drum hit. I care about how it sounds and the feeling it gives me. And I find Mangini's work on DT12 boring to my ears.

This is a nutshell. And i've studied Music Theory.

[The Stray Seed]

I don't care about the theory or purpose of a drum hit. I care about how it sounds and the feeling it gives me.

I actually care about both. And really love what MM did in DT12 =)

[erwinrafael]

The fill mentioned may be difficult to play but it just sounds like a traditional two handed roll done quickly.  There is nothing
memorable to me about that fill.

actually, it doesn't sound the same way because there is a melody in the drum roll whereas a traditional drum roll does not. a traditional drum roll would not actually make sense in that section. It only made sense because of the melody. Listen to it again how it complements JP's riff.

[erwinrafael]

How does understanding music give your opinion on whether or not something's good any more value? It's all opinion.

Well, you said you threw in technical terms because just sayung "I like" or 'I do not like" will not encourage discussion. But when people start debating points based on the terms you used, you retreat to "it's all opinion." You can not have it both ways.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Explaining why I dislike something, and saying "my opinion is better because I know music theory" are not the same thing.