How do you rate Mangini's work on the latest album?

[erwinrafael]

I don't care about the theory or purpose of a drum hit. I care about how it sounds and the feeling it gives me. And I find Mangini's work on DT12 boring to my ears.

That's fine, if you do not care about the feeling MM's drum gives you, it's a subjective thing. We all have different tastes.

But when you also said that MM's drumming are all "just very fast ambidextrous fills" and that the drumming is "simple," that is quite inaccurate.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I don't care about the theory or purpose of a drum hit. I care about how it sounds and the feeling it gives me. And I find Mangini's work on DT12 boring to my ears.

That's fine, if you do not care about the feeling MM's drum gives you, it's a subjective thing. We all have different tastes.

But when you also said that MM's drumming are all "just very fast ambidextrous fills" and that the drumming is "simple," that is quite inaccurate.

Have I said either of these things? I honestly have no recollection of that.

[erwinrafael]

I don't care about the theory or purpose of a drum hit. I care about how it sounds and the feeling it gives me. And I find Mangini's work on DT12 boring to my ears.

That's fine, if you do not care about the feeling MM's drum gives you, it's a subjective thing. We all have different tastes.

But when you also said that MM's drumming are all "just very fast ambidextrous fills" and that the drumming is "simple," that is quite inaccurate.

Have I said either of these things? I honestly have no recollection of that.

I was replying to jakepriest.

[Shumpun]

I think that with Dream Theater, they are trying to play things they find interesting- that is the honest thing to do. There is no right or wrong you like it or you don't. I like it because studying with Mike opened my mind as a drummer. Before I understood what he was doing it would have just sounded like a bunch of fast notes. I used to hate IPA's before I started brewing my own beer now I love them. Mike is just honestly expressing himself and that should be respected. There are plenty of us who love it. He will be scrutinized as a drummer well beyond his time on this planet. Lars won't. Sorry it's just I know Lars tried out and didn't make the cut.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I was replying to jakepriest.

heh heh...



....I'm going to walk away now. I could have sworn you were quoting me.

I think that with Dream Theater, they are trying to play things they find interesting- that is the honest thing to do. There is no right or wrong you like it or you don't. I like it because studying with Mike opened my mind as a drummer. Before I understood what he was doing it would have just sounded like a bunch of fast notes. I used to hate IPA's before I started brewing my own beer now I love them. Mike is just honestly expressing himself and that should be respected. There are plenty of us who love it. He will be scrutinized as a drummer well beyond his time on this planet. Lars won't. Sorry it's just I know Lars tried out and didn't make the cut.

wut

[erwinrafael]

Explaining why I dislike something, and saying "my opinion is better because I know music theory" are not the same thing.

In a way, I can grant you that generally opinions are on equal footing. However, I sometimes it gets grating to hear technical terms being used inaccurately and the liberal use of the term is being defended using the argument of semantics. Because we are in a prog forum, I think a lot of us are aware of how these terms are used in music and we actually hope these terms would not just be used liberally as if there is no generally accepted meaning of the terms.

I think this is why some people are upset in another thread about the Guardian Review of DT's Manchester show. The general feeling over there is that the reviewer is not really the best person to give an opinion on the show because he is not a fan of the prog genre. It's the same way that in this thread,. some of us who know drumming actually are trying to steer the discussion to more clarified use of terms. I don't think the drummers here actually debated about feel, tastes and likes. The arguments are actually about whether the drumming is simple or whether fills are just fast rolls or whether there is swing in MP's music, which are usually arguments at the technical level.

[Shumpun]

Lars thing was a joke. Search it on Youtube- very funny. They took footage from auditions and edited it.

[Aythesryche]

I think Mangini is fantastic on the latest album. I can easily dissect every aspect of a DT song technically, but I choose to enjoy the music as a whole instead. For me, unless I'm studying the music as a musician, I find it pointless to dissect and take bits of pieces of a song and judge them out of the context in which they were designed for. Saying a fill doesn't move you is like saying the word "and" in Charles Bukowskis poem "the spider" doesn't move you. You might be missing the point behind the fill since you're perhaps taking it out of context.

I also think Mangini has as much feeling as any other drummer out there. Just because the guy isn't acting like a clown on stage, doesn't mean he doesn't have stage presence or has no feeling. The two times I've seen DT with Mangini in concert, I felt the energy from the guy. The guy put his whole heart and effort into his performance and I picked up on it. Just because you don't see it or feel it, doesn't mean it's not there for him or others that are tuned in differently.

Am I right or am I wrong? I'm both. Depending on who you ask. I respect everyones opinion on here when they're being respectful. What I don't respect, is when someone tries to pass of their opinions as a sole fact that everyone should agree with.

[nikatapi]

I think Mangini is fantastic on the latest album. I can easily dissect every aspect of a DT song technically, but I choose to enjoy the music as a whole instead. For me, unless I'm studying the music as a musician, I find it pointless to dissect and take bits of pieces of a song and judge them out of the context in which they were designed for. Saying a fill doesn't move you is like saying the word "and" in Charles Bukowskis poem "the spider" doesn't move you. You might be missing the point behind the fill since you're perhaps taking it out of context.

I also think Mangini has as much feeling as any other drummer out there. Just because the guy isn't acting like a clown on stage, doesn't mean he doesn't have stage presence or has no feeling. The two times I've seen DT with Mangini in concert, I felt the energy from the guy. The guy put his whole heart and effort into his performance and I picked up on it. Just because you don't see it or feel it, doesn't mean it's not there for him or others that are tuned in differently.

Am I right or am I wrong? I'm both. Depending on who you ask. I respect everyones opinion on here when they're being respectful. What I don't respect, is when someone tries to pass of their opinions as a sole fact that everyone should agree with.

Very cool post, agreed about the live performance, Mike is great and has a lot of interaction with the crowd, just on a different level than MP. He keeps looking at the crowd, and he spots some drummers, making fun with his one handed rolls or even some alterations on the drum parts. Great guy and very entertaining to watch.

Personally i've shared a lot of criticism which is not directed only at Mike, and it mainly comes because it is a shame to see his parts being undermined by subpar sound quality.
I'm sure he will have more input on the songwriting on the next album, and offer his polyrhythmic capabilities in a more broad way, making our brains melt. He still remains pretty reserved despite being an incredibly skilled drummer, so maybe some people were disappointed and expected more from him, because they believe in him.

[Shumpun]

That is a really good point about him remaining reserved a bit. He is one of the most humble guys in the world- and my guess is he does not want draw attention to himself. There is really nothing in there that highlights the drums and it may just be him trying to be respectful of the band and not upstage Portnoy. There is nothing that really says "hey look at me" other than the solo in Enigma Machine which was a 10. We all remember the days of Awake with the intro of 6 O'Clock. I hope  they highlight the drums more in the future.

And for some reason, Mike has always been cursed with bad mixing. The time I studied with him he had just finished Elements of Persuasion and he felt that was really the only time the drums sounded good in the mix. He is never satisfied with how the recordings come out. I think he needs a dedicated engineer. Also he has pretty bad hearing damage so I am not sure even how much of it he can hear.  As a drummer, on DT12 the toms did not come out right and the snare is not really Mike's sound. The best I ever heard him was the natural sound acheieved on Mullmuzzler II and even Mike was happy with it but it was still mixed a bit low and it may not cut in the aggressive mix of the album. They will need an entirely different engineer to really get it all right next time. Don't get me wrong though I still give the mix an 8 or 9. But with a guy like Mangini you want to hear every note of all the amazing things he is doing.

[jakepriest]

I don't care about the theory or purpose of a drum hit. I care about how it sounds and the feeling it gives me. And I find Mangini's work on DT12 boring to my ears.

That's fine, if you do not care about the feeling MM's drum gives you, it's a subjective thing. We all have different tastes.

But when you also said that MM's drumming are all "just very fast ambidextrous fills" and that the drumming is "simple," that is quite inaccurate.

I didn't say it is simple. I said it is simple in comparison to his amazing work on ADToE. IT is the only thing where I found MM actually play something interesting on the new album.

[DoctorAction]

The drumming seems like it's bloody great. I don't find it v enjoyable to listen to, though. Really feel JP is letting MM by indulging his poor producer choices/abilities. Real shame. Span SFAM for the first time in a couple of years yesterday. Such an incredible drum recording to listen to...

[Sycsa]

The drumming seems like it's bloody great. I don't find it v enjoyable to listen to, though. Really feel JP is letting MM by indulging his poor producer choices/abilities. Real shame. Span SFAM for the first time in a couple of years yesterday. Such an incredible drum recording to listen to...

We can only speculate, but I'd sooner blame the drum sound on JP than on MM.

[BlackInk]

Voted 6. He is definetely technically brilliant, but I think that's part of why I'm not loving his playing. He is the world's best and fastest drum-machine, but very litte dynamic playing or "emotion". Portnoy's playing is still far superior because of this.

And also, that truly awful snare sound on DT12 drags it down some more. Doesn't even sound like a snare, it sounds like someone is pressing a button which. Horrible work, whoever made that sound decision.

[rumborak]

I just now  specifically listened to the drums on DT12, and there's really zero dynamics. Every single hit is exactly the same velocity, and I could not identify a single ghost note on the whole album.

[BlobVanDam]

I just now  specifically listened to the drums on DT12, and there's really zero dynamics. Every single hit is exactly the same velocity, and I could not identify a single ghost note on the whole album.

I noticed that too in relation to the ghost notes, and the lack of dynamics is probably what makes MM's playing on DT12 sound robotic. When listening back through all of the DT albums, I could always hear MP's ghost notes even on the more compressed albums, and I really miss hearing that stuff.

I've said it a lot, but I'm saying it again. I'd love them to get Kevin Shirley again, because he always got a great drum sound.

[rumborak]

A better drum sound would definitely be good, but are you suggesting that ghost notes were played but you can't hear them? My best guess is that MM doesn't play them in the first place.

[BlobVanDam]

A better drum sound would definitely be good, but are you suggesting that ghost notes were played but you can't hear them? My best guess is that MM doesn't play them in the first place.

I didn't mean to imply either way on that matter, I was just replying to both of your points at once, not really related.
With the drum production, I'd expect that if he did play them, they would be audible. When he's playing the lighter snare rolls such as FAS, I can hear them perfectly fine, so I agree he probably doesn't play them.

[nikatapi]

Yeah the ghost notes are audible, take the verses on Behind The Veil for example, on the "I'm finding courage" parts. He is playing some ghost notes but the sound is pretty mediocre because the snare is tuned so low.

I really hope that the guys in DT keep an eye on this forum and take all the drum sound criticism into consideration, because it's a shame having some great drum parts hindered by the drum sound. Really besides WDADU, ADTOE and DT have the worst drum sound both in terms of clarity, power and punch. Some great cymbal work gets blended with the guitar, like some amazing parts of Lost Not Forgotten and Outcry.

Besides Kevin Shirley i'm sure that Paul Northfield would also get a good drum sound, SC and BC&SL had good drum sound even if the mix wasn't ideal.

[Shumpun]

In Mike's defense, in the Drum magazine article he stated that he had to hit as hard as possible on everything in order for the gates to capture the notes. That tells me they heavily gated the drums. For anyone who doesn't know sound engineering, they open and close when a note is hit in order to keep any unwanted background noise out. I wonder if they did this because they were writing and tracking simultaneously all in the room. You can tell the toms and snare were heavily gated. The issue with gating is if you don't hit everything very loud, the note may be completely lost since the gate would not open thinking it was background bleed verus an intentional hit.

[jakepriest]

SC and BC&SL had good drum sound even if the mix wasn't ideal.

BC&SL has the worst sounding drums in Portnoy's entire career. The snare and toms sound horrible.

[nikatapi]

SC and BC&SL had good drum sound even if the mix wasn't ideal.

BC&SL has the worst sounding drums in Portnoy's entire career. The snare and toms sound horrible.

Still better than ADTOE and DT imo.

[BlobVanDam]

I agree that BCASL is one of the worse sounding albums for MP's drums. I think they still sound better than ADTOE, and about comparable to DT12 (I might give DT12 the slight edge). SC's drums actually sound really good aside from the mastering clipping off the bass drum.

[jakepriest]

I think the ADTOE drums sound okay. They could just be a little louder in the mix and the kick drum could sound a bit fuller. I don't have a problem with the ADTOE snare.

[Kotowboy]

When listening to the HD Tracks of DT12 - the only problem for me is low cymbal mix and the snare just does not work on

Along for the Ride AT ALL.

[rumborak]

In Mike's defense, in the Drum magazine article he stated that he had to hit as hard as possible on everything in order for the gates to capture the notes. That tells me they heavily gated the drums. For anyone who doesn't know sound engineering, they open and close when a note is hit in order to keep any unwanted background noise out. I wonder if they did this because they were writing and tracking simultaneously all in the room. You can tell the toms and snare were heavily gated. The issue with gating is if you don't hit everything very loud, the note may be completely lost since the gate would not open thinking it was background bleed verus an intentional hit.

Do you have a link to that article? It seems rather bizarre that a band would write and track at the same time. Because yeah, you can say goodbye to any kind of subtlety in the drum sound in that scenario. The acoustic bleed would be horrendous, so yeah, you would have to gate the crap out of everything.

[Kotowboy]

I'm sure in that situation - the cabs would be in a seperate studio and they would all be wearing headphones.


But there's a bunch of interviews where JP says they got the final album sound in pre-production so that when they were writing - a flash of inspiration from one of the 4 would be instantly captured and occasionally make it all the way to the final mix.

[Shumpun]

I don't think it is posted online but it is the 2013 Drum! issue with Mangini on the cover. Yes they even captured some fills/parts that ended up on the final album from while they were all playing together. Funny thing about DT12 though is there aren't a whole lot of dynamic parts in the songs during sections with drums. Almost every part that has drums is very big sounding and in your face.

[rumborak]

Well, with that in mind, Kotow, I don't think they will have sit there with headphones on their head during writing. That's what you do during tracking so that everybody is in the room (for visual contact etc.) but only the drums are making a sound, but it would be awkward as hell during writing. Which then would really mean they recorded MM's drums while the other drums were cranked up as well.

I still can't exactly believe they would do that. We must be misunderstanding something. Nobody in their right mind would record a drumkit when the other instruments are blaring.

[ReaPsTA]

Well, with that in mind, Kotow, I don't think they will have sit there with headphones on their head during writing.

It wouldn't surprise me.  They already play inner ear live.

[Tiko]

I think MM's technique is out of this world. The guy's an animal. The independence of his limbs is amazing.

He's so accurate that it sometimes bothers me. He almost sounds like a drum machine. There's some sort of drive I'm missing.
When he plays a beat for an ass-kickin riff, he hits the snare the same way as in a ballad (this might be a bit exaggerated but you get what I mean).
I know that's personal preference, but I like to hear the drums smacked when a song gets in your face. I'm a fan of dynamics and feel.

Maybe the horrible drum sounds amplify these thoughts in me...

That's just my opinion. He's an amazing drummer but so far I'm not loving his style.

[bosk1]

Since we're here with people who seem to have a deep understanding of drumming, what would you define "groove"?

It's kinda like "swing."

[King Postwhore]

They have a swing to their meter.  Perfect examples of drummers like that is Jeff Pocarro,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwyO1qr0edI

[The Stray Seed]

They have a swing to their meter.  Perfect examples of drummers like that is Jeff Pocarro,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwyO1qr0edI

It's "Porcaro" great drummer btw

[King Postwhore]

Ooops!