How do you rate Mangini's work on the latest album?

[hefdaddy42]

So "creative" is just doing something other people haven't?

To a certain extent.  But I would certainly be interested in your definition of "creative" if you think that MM is NOT creative.

I certainly understand how some people could not like MM's drumming, or prefer other drummers to him, or other drummer's styles to his style.  But to say that one of the reasons for that is that he is uncreative seems, on the face of it, inaccurate.

[erwinrafael]

So "creative" is just doing something other people haven't?

It's producing something new and imaginative that is not derivative of an old "product" (for lack of a better term).

Basically everything that's ever been done is derivative of something else.  Humans are not good at being creative under your restrictive definition.

Maybe derivative is indeed the incorrect term.

[The Stray Seed]

Creative is someone who can come up with something surprising. This is the only description that fits the word IMHO. What you do might be surprising to some and not to others - depending on their competence, taste, personality, expectations, influences, state of mind, and amount of attention they pay at what you do - and this is why some people will find that a certain thing is creative while others won't. It may also happen that one person comes up with things that are completely new and inspire awe in everyone's mind (take Leonardo's machines for example), but in that case you're not talking about sheer creativity anymore, you're talking about genius, as the subjectivity aspect is totally removed.

[erwinrafael]

Creative is someone who can come up with something surprising. This is the only description that fits the word IMHO. What you do might be surprising to some and not to others - depending on their competence, taste, personality, expectations, influences, state of mind, and amount of attention they pay at what you do - and this is why some people will find that a certain thing is creative while others won't. It may also happen that one person comes up with things that are completely new and inspire awe in everyone's mind (take Leonardo's machines for example), but in that case you're not talking about sheer creativity anymore, you're talking about genius, as the subjectivity aspect is totally removed.

If I take a post-modern approach, I would agree with you that creativity is in the eye of the observer. However, such a loose definition really just gives people a blanket excuse to say "it's just my opinion, I can call you uncreative with no basis whatsoever." I am all for respecting opinions, but I really feel uncomfortable reading posts about artists, whose basic occupation is to CREATE and EXPRESS THEMSELVES THROUGH THEIR ART, and has thus sacrificed countless hours to perfect their craft, being called uncreative. It is a loaded term, and the way it has been used lightly by some posters here to criticize MM, is really...appalling. Sorry for the use of that term, but really, to call a full time artist doing prog music as not creative is  .

[hefdaddy42]

Well, I agree somewhat, but not to that degree.  I mean, throughout the last 20 years, there have been a multitude of bands whom I thought were aping DT's style and sound.  Were they producing new music?  Yes, but to a certain extent they were uncreative.

But on an individual basis, I just don't see a lack of creativity as being an accurate assessment of MM.  I mean, he is literally doing things that no other drummer is doing.  You may not like it, but it isn't uncreative.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

So "creative" is just doing something other people haven't?

To a certain extent.  But I would certainly be interested in your definition of "creative" if you think that MM is NOT creative.

I certainly understand how some people could not like MM's drumming, or prefer other drummers to him, or other drummer's styles to his style.  But to say that one of the reasons for that is that he is uncreative seems, on the face of it, inaccurate.

Well, honestly, when listening to ADTOE and DT12, almost nothing about the drumming makes any impression on me whatsoever. So, in that regard, I would describe the parts as uncreative, because they kind of sound exactly how I'd expect them to sound with very little deviation.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Why don't we just look the word up in a dictionary to see what it means? Maybe the word some people are looking for is original? Revolutionary? Interesting?

Saying that he is not creative seems silly and blatantly incorrect. There are a ton of people who don't like JP's playing, but wouldn't go so far to say he is "uncreative" --- and they rightly shouldn't -- even in spite of the fact that he hasn't played or written anything revolutionary in 20 years.

[hefdaddy42]

What would sound "creative" to you? 

I'm not browbeating you, BTW, I am simply curious.  Are you a musician, by chance?

[King Postwhore]

Sounds like a non drummer answer to me.  There are so many little nuances that Mangini does and like it's been said before, I think it's about people's taste in styles that is the issue here.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

What would sound "creative" to you? 

I'm not browbeating you, BTW, I am simply curious.  Are you a musician, by chance?

Not really. I'm sure there are technical things I'm not picking up on, but that's never what I've listened to DT for anyway.

[hefdaddy42]

What would sound "creative" to you? 

I'm not browbeating you, BTW, I am simply curious.  Are you a musician, by chance?

Not really. I'm sure there are technical things I'm not picking up on, but that's never what I've listened to DT for anyway.

OK.  That's probably a large part of this, then.

What, drumming-wise, would you consider creative?  Do you have any examples of drummers you find creative?  Or, more creative than Mangini?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Um, Marco Minnemann comes to mind. Blake Richardson and Luc Hess as well.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I could see how people could find Marco more interesting and maybe more creative, ultimately. Keep in mind that his current gig allows him way more say in the songs that are written -- he writes 1/3 of each Aristocrats album -- than Mike.

But I still don't see how one arrives to the conclusion that Mike "is not creative."

[hefdaddy42]

Um, Marco Minnemann comes to mind. Blake Richardson and Luc Hess as well.

Marco is certainly very creative.  I don't know the other two names.

[erwinrafael]

So "creative" is just doing something other people haven't?

To a certain extent.  But I would certainly be interested in your definition of "creative" if you think that MM is NOT creative.

I certainly understand how some people could not like MM's drumming, or prefer other drummers to him, or other drummer's styles to his style.  But to say that one of the reasons for that is that he is uncreative seems, on the face of it, inaccurate.

Well, honestly, when listening to ADTOE and DT12, almost nothing about the drumming makes any impression on me whatsoever. So, in that regard, I would describe the parts as uncreative, because they kind of sound exactly how I'd expect them to sound with very little deviation.

Despite MM playing in a very different style from MP which you listened to all these years, you still created expectations that perfectly synced with what MM recorded? So you expected hearing the polyrhythmic hi-hats coming in the middle of the "Mothers for their children..." part, despite hearing the initial odd-meter drum and bass pattern? What's the time signature of that part? I guess you also pretty much nailed how MM would drum the instrumental solo part of Surrender to Reason. Or, if we go back to ADTOE, I guess you pretty much expected the odd time signatures in the intro and the opening verse of Breaking All Illusions. Good for you.

I guess that would be the battle MM would have to contend with with some fans. Because his orchestral playing style makes sure that every hit in his drums sync and serve a musical purpose, people would think that they are hearing what they expected, instead of actually realizing that the drumming comes across as "expected" only because all the drumming they hear made sense in the context of the song. Creating drum fills that do not make sense in the context of what the other instruments are playing, that is "creativity".

[erwinrafael]

Um, Marco Minnemann comes to mind.

Comparing drumming for a jazz fusion band that plays with an improv feel to drumming for a prog metal band that has structured compositions is just...funny. You really expect this  kind of drumming ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLXpEt42W-8 ) in DT12?

If you want MM playing a bit like that, listen to this ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXcbXZ_H9BA ). Good luck hearing something like that in a DT record. 

[The Stray Seed]

Sorry guys, I expressed myself in an incomplete way: I didn't want to say that it's completely subjective, what I meant is that it always implies an indefinite amount of subjectivity (which is always below 100%, as our minds are hardly 100% different from one another), and this is why we're not agreeing with each other, and why usually people completely agree only when witness some kind of real genius. This is what I was trying to express, and find it has a lot of correlation to what many of you are saying, just take a look at how many times the concept of "expectation" has been mentioned in the last posts.

[KevShmev]

9/10.

Even as a non-musician, I can tell how super creative his drum parts are, even if some of them are in a less obvious way than Portnoy's were.  I can't give him a 10 out of 10, though, cause the one drawback to his style is that, while creative as hell, it lacks the "fun" element at times.

[Lucidity]

All of these 10/10s are unbelievable. His drumming on the album isn't bad by any stretch, but I actually thought the ADToE drum parts were more interesting... I also think that the parts on the album are far less creative than much of MP's drumming. A lot of it seems very straightforward to me; following the guitar/bass rhythms precisely.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

So "creative" is just doing something other people haven't?

To a certain extent.  But I would certainly be interested in your definition of "creative" if you think that MM is NOT creative.

I certainly understand how some people could not like MM's drumming, or prefer other drummers to him, or other drummer's styles to his style.  But to say that one of the reasons for that is that he is uncreative seems, on the face of it, inaccurate.

Well, honestly, when listening to ADTOE and DT12, almost nothing about the drumming makes any impression on me whatsoever. So, in that regard, I would describe the parts as uncreative, because they kind of sound exactly how I'd expect them to sound with very little deviation.

Despite MM playing in a very different style from MP which you listened to all these years, you still created expectations that perfectly synced with what MM recorded? So you expected hearing the polyrhythmic hi-hats coming in the middle of the "Mothers for their children..." part, despite hearing the initial odd-meter drum and bass pattern? What's the time signature of that part? I guess you also pretty much nailed how MM would drum the instrumental solo part of Surrender to Reason. Or, if we go back to ADTOE, I guess you pretty much expected the odd time signatures in the intro and the opening verse of Breaking All Illusions. Good for you.

I guess that would be the battle MM would have to contend with with some fans. Because his orchestral playing style makes sure that every hit in his drums sync and serve a musical purpose, people would think that they are hearing what they expected, instead of actually realizing that the drumming comes across as "expected" only because all the drumming they hear made sense in the context of the song. Creating drum fills that do not make sense in the context of what the other instruments are playing, that is "creativity".

Dude, unwad your undies. It's true I didn't analyze every second of every song to determine exactly what Mangini was doing at that point, because frankly, I've got better things to do with my life.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

So "creative" is just doing something other people haven't?

To a certain extent.  But I would certainly be interested in your definition of "creative" if you think that MM is NOT creative.

I certainly understand how some people could not like MM's drumming, or prefer other drummers to him, or other drummer's styles to his style.  But to say that one of the reasons for that is that he is uncreative seems, on the face of it, inaccurate.

Well, honestly, when listening to ADTOE and DT12, almost nothing about the drumming makes any impression on me whatsoever. So, in that regard, I would describe the parts as uncreative, because they kind of sound exactly how I'd expect them to sound with very little deviation.

Despite MM playing in a very different style from MP which you listened to all these years, you still created expectations that perfectly synced with what MM recorded? So you expected hearing the polyrhythmic hi-hats coming in the middle of the "Mothers for their children..." part, despite hearing the initial odd-meter drum and bass pattern? What's the time signature of that part? I guess you also pretty much nailed how MM would drum the instrumental solo part of Surrender to Reason. Or, if we go back to ADTOE, I guess you pretty much expected the odd time signatures in the intro and the opening verse of Breaking All Illusions. Good for you.

I guess that would be the battle MM would have to contend with with some fans. Because his orchestral playing style makes sure that every hit in his drums sync and serve a musical purpose, people would think that they are hearing what they expected, instead of actually realizing that the drumming comes across as "expected" only because all the drumming they hear made sense in the context of the song. Creating drum fills that do not make sense in the context of what the other instruments are playing, that is "creativity".

Dude, unwad your undies. It's true I didn't analyze every second of every song to determine exactly what Mangini was doing at that point, because frankly, I've got better things to do with my life.

Like post on here?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

olol

[rumborak]

because it's not even something that is a stylistic feature of the music or has ever been.

Speak for yourself. In my book, prog is supposed to be encompass any style it likes. To me, the point of prog is not the clinically precise reproduction of the material. And I think that's what a lot of people are criticizing here, that instead of opening up the musical door with MM's prodigious skill, they've rather focused on becoming even narrower. MM used to teach a wide range of styles at Berklee, but from what he plays in DT, you couldn't tell.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Um, Marco Minnemann comes to mind. Blake Richardson and Luc Hess as well.

Marco is certainly very creative.  I don't know the other two names.

Didn't see this earlier. Blake is the drummer for Between The Buried And Me, Luc is the former () drummer for The Ocean.

[hefdaddy42]

Blake is the drummer for Between The Buried And Me, Luc is the former () drummer for The Ocean.

Oh!  I like what I've heard of BTBAM.  I'll check out The Ocean.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

because it's not even something that is a stylistic feature of the music or has ever been.

Speak for yourself. In my book, prog is supposed to be encompass any style it likes. To me, the point of prog is not the clinically precise reproduction of the material. And I think that's what a lot of people are criticizing here, that instead of opening up the musical door with MM's prodigious skill, they've rather focused on becoming even narrower. MM used to teach a wide range of styles at Berklee, but from what he plays in DT, you couldn't tell.

Lol...the fact that progressive music might, from time to time, incorporate things from other styles of music is completely outside the point of what I posted. "Swing" is not a stylistic feature of progressive metal music. There is no discussion or opinion about that. To claim otherwise is totally absurd, to put it politely.

To bring it closer to the original point, swing is not a feature of Dream Theater's music and never has been. Any serious claim to the contrary does nothing but reveal that the person has no idea what "swing" is, and to degrade the quality of discussion about the band and music in general. It is about as much a part of DT as Polish folk music. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised if one day someone came on this forum and posted "MM's latest work in DT leaves something to be desired, as I feel he does not cop a good enough Polish folk music feel." It is therefore not one of the valid critiques of MM's contributions to DT, in the same way it would not be a sensible critique of JP or JM's contributions.

[ReaPsTA]

Speak for yourself. In my book, prog is supposed to be encompass any style it likes. To me, the point of prog is not the clinically precise reproduction of the material. And I think that's what a lot of people are criticizing here, that instead of opening up the musical door with MM's prodigious skill, they've rather focused on becoming even narrower. MM used to teach a wide range of styles at Berklee, but from what he plays in DT, you couldn't tell.

I feel like you're selling DT12 a bit short stylistically.  There's nothing jazzy like Awake or funky like TTT, but it covers a lot of bases within the prog-metal genre.  I've never heard any music by anyone (including DT themselves) that sounds like AFTR or IT.

Also, DT's music is what it is.  A song like Behind the Veil isn't going to have a lot of room for complex, textured drumming.  Even so, Mangini gets in what he can.  The cymbals during the first chorus are really cool.  He does a lot of his hits on weird off beats to keep the whole thing a bit off kilter.  Nice inclusion of ghost notes too.  The fills during the second verse are heavier than the first verse, to increase the intensity.  His drumming evolves with JR's pre-solo lead.

Within the context of what DT was trying to do, Mangini added a lot to the music.  I concede that DT could probably be more musically expressive if they want in a proggier direction (like what Haken does), but that isn't super duper interesting to me.  I almost never listen to prog rock.  I listen to metal and other heavy music quite a bit.  The metal part of prog metal is really important to me.  DT12 was maybe a bit too metal, but better that than the balance going too far the other way.

[erwinrafael]

All of these 10/10s are unbelievable. His drumming on the album isn't bad by any stretch, but I actually thought the ADToE drum parts were more interesting... I also think that the parts on the album are far less creative than much of MP's drumming. A lot of it seems very straightforward to me; following the guitar/bass rhythms precisely.

Because you hear that in a lot of music? So you hear a lot of orchestral drumming in other musical pieces? Please cite examples.

What if it is the guitar and the bass that is following the drums? How could you tell?

[erwinrafael]

So "creative" is just doing something other people haven't?

To a certain extent.  But I would certainly be interested in your definition of "creative" if you think that MM is NOT creative.

I certainly understand how some people could not like MM's drumming, or prefer other drummers to him, or other drummer's styles to his style.  But to say that one of the reasons for that is that he is uncreative seems, on the face of it, inaccurate.

Well, honestly, when listening to ADTOE and DT12, almost nothing about the drumming makes any impression on me whatsoever. So, in that regard, I would describe the parts as uncreative, because they kind of sound exactly how I'd expect them to sound with very little deviation.

Despite MM playing in a very different style from MP which you listened to all these years, you still created expectations that perfectly synced with what MM recorded? So you expected hearing the polyrhythmic hi-hats coming in the middle of the "Mothers for their children..." part, despite hearing the initial odd-meter drum and bass pattern? What's the time signature of that part? I guess you also pretty much nailed how MM would drum the instrumental solo part of Surrender to Reason. Or, if we go back to ADTOE, I guess you pretty much expected the odd time signatures in the intro and the opening verse of Breaking All Illusions. Good for you.

I guess that would be the battle MM would have to contend with with some fans. Because his orchestral playing style makes sure that every hit in his drums sync and serve a musical purpose, people would think that they are hearing what they expected, instead of actually realizing that the drumming comes across as "expected" only because all the drumming they hear made sense in the context of the song. Creating drum fills that do not make sense in the context of what the other instruments are playing, that is "creativity".

Dude, unwad your undies. It's true I didn't analyze every second of every song to determine exactly what Mangini was doing at that point, because frankly, I've got better things to do with my life.

You did not analyze the music but you have the balls to call the music uncreative? It now makes a lot of sense.

[Lucidity]

All of these 10/10s are unbelievable. His drumming on the album isn't bad by any stretch, but I actually thought the ADToE drum parts were more interesting... I also think that the parts on the album are far less creative than much of MP's drumming. A lot of it seems very straightforward to me; following the guitar/bass rhythms precisely.

Because you hear that in a lot of music? So you hear a lot of orchestral drumming in other musical pieces? Please cite examples.

What if it is the guitar and the bass that is following the drums? How could you tell?

If, for instance, you listen through SDOiT, there are a lot of rhythmic textures and patterns independent of the other instruments that MP creates (the Great Debate comes to mind as a good example, and Blind Faith) that makes the drum parts a lot more interesting to me than what's heard on DT12. And since MM isn't the primary composer in the group, it's safe to assume the parts MM writes are based around the music written by JP and JR and maybe JM, so the drums are following the other instruments. I don't think it happens a lot that JP will write a riff around one of MM's parts, but I can't say that for sure.

[Kotowboy]

I would never rate anything 10/10.

That's like saying it has absolutely no flaws at all.

I wouldn't even rank my favourite album of all time a 10.

[erwinrafael]

I did not even rate MM's playing here as 10/10, but I am so worked up. 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I did not even rate MM's playing here as 10/10, but I am so worked up. 

Then what's the point of having a ten-point rating scale? You might as well just have 1-9.

You did not analyze the music but you have the balls to call the music uncreative? It now makes a lot of sense.

Well, I was born with these balls, gotta use 'em somewhere.

[erwinrafael]

All of these 10/10s are unbelievable. His drumming on the album isn't bad by any stretch, but I actually thought the ADToE drum parts were more interesting... I also think that the parts on the album are far less creative than much of MP's drumming. A lot of it seems very straightforward to me; following the guitar/bass rhythms precisely.

Because you hear that in a lot of music? So you hear a lot of orchestral drumming in other musical pieces? Please cite examples.

What if it is the guitar and the bass that is following the drums? How could you tell?

If, for instance, you listen through SDOiT, there are a lot of rhythmic textures and patterns independent of the other instruments that MP creates (the Great Debate comes to mind as a good example, and Blind Faith) that makes the drum parts a lot more interesting to me than what's heard on DT12. And since MM isn't the primary composer in the group, it's safe to assume the parts MM writes are based around the music written by JP and JR and maybe JM, so the drums are following the other instruments. I don't think it happens a lot that JP will write a riff around one of MM's parts, but I can't say that for sure.

MM does follows the instruments but the instruments also follow him, if we go by JR's interviews. For example, in https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/jordan-rudess-talks-dream-theaters-self-titled-new-album-track-by-track-584561/10/1, JR said about MM's contributions to IT: "This is a great example of what Mike Mangini brings to us, which is this extreme rhythmic brain that can conceptualize very interesting ideas for rhythms that can go together. Like 'if you play 10 bars of seven and you play four bars of five, it's going to sound really cool.' We would make notes and put these things together. That gave me a nice chance to pull out some music paper and write some counterpoint stuff. I have these almost Bach/Gentle Giant things in there, and that was a lot of fun to work on."     

[LKap13]

Interesting stuff. And thanks for citing examples from the album. When I went back to listen to those moments I found that I had indeed missed some cool parts. All that being said, it is a personal preference of mine that the drummer doesn't match the notes being played by other instruments beat by beat. I just wish he had done some more "offbeat" stuff rather than snare hi-hat snare hi-hat followed by fast JP/JR part where MM syncs his beats exactly with the notes being played.

And erwin, I might have missed it, but where exactly did someone explicitly say MM is "uncreative?" I agree with you that one would be hard-pressed to call any professional musician wholly uncreative. That said, it seems to me that Portnoy's work on Images and SDOIT, for example, is far more creative than MM's work on DT12/ADTOE. The point of this thread was for me to figure out whether I was totally missing something or if the consensus was similar to that general feeling. Based on the ratings, it seems that I've missed something. I will keep listening closely! And your description of "orchestral" drumming is rather nebulous. Perhaps you mean he's keeping the beat? Still not sure what you mean...