The setlist so far... (DT-Side Tour Thread)

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Wait, so you're okay with that? That seems to clearly conflict with this.

I can't say I agree that if the band has a vision for a melody over their song that they should scrap it in order to give a guy a "break." I don't believe the vocal lines they prescribe are unreasonable. At all.

They should not change the writing. That is what the poster suggested the band do.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Ok then.

[sneakyblueberry]

uh...

Anyways.  I agree with whoever said DT should write less 'soaring' melodies.  JLB's high notes, that all rely on the same vowel sound, get incredibly grating after a while. 

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Ok then.

And besides, I don't even think he should sing it down an octave. He should sing it the way it is on the album. I was partly just indulging your hypothetical. I believe he is capable of singing that part and not damaging himself. He did it on the album.

Anyway, my overall point is the band should continue to write the melodies that fit their vision as opposed to just changing it because they want to make someone else's job easier.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I just think that's a somewhat idealized version of music. Everything a band writes is limited by their physical abilities. If their vision calls for something they can't physically do (not saying they've written something like that), obviously something would have to be changed.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I just think that's a somewhat idealized version of music. Everything a band writes is limited by their physical abilities. If their vision calls for something they can't physically do (not saying they've written something like that), obviously something would have to be changed.

It's not just a picture of the ideal world. It's the way a lot of art is composed and it's the reason why people spend all that time improving technique. That's the whole point of virtuosity is so that the body doesn't prevent the mind from expressing itself. Jeez, what if for thousands of years people who had a vision of "really difficult to achieve" music, art or engineering just said it was too ideal to be realized...At the utter extremes, of course there will always be stuff that is "impossible" for humans to play. But that stuff is beyond the scope of this topic and of little relevance to any practical discussion.

What if Mozart said "well this is too ideal to expect anyone to sing" when he was writing the Queen of the Night aria? What if Liszt had never written all those mind blowing virtuosic piano pieces.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm all for giving him a break, but for me, I think it's more like, give him a break in the writing department. He obviously struggles with those really high parts, like in Illumination Theory. Even when he nails it, he looks like he's working so hard for it, I wonder if it's healthy for him to be singing that way? I am just a bit worried that he might blow out his voice again. And, at the risk of being a little overly critical, right from the very beginning DT vocal melodies relied way too much on those soaring moments to make an impact. Around Scenes and Six Degrees they got away from that, but it seems like lately they're veering back.

James doesn't need to hit an F#5 or G5 to make the melody impactful, in my opinion. If the lyrics and melody need to go the powerhouse route to work, and it's going to be a constant struggle for James to sing it right, then maybe it's the wrong melody for James? I think fans would be willing to accept that soaring vocals are just not part of the DT sound anymore, and would be cool with it. The fact James sings a different, more limited but just as impactful way on his solo records is pretty telling, too. I'd love to see JP go more in that direction with James, if he's gonna continue as the primary songwriter.

I can't say I agree that if the band has a vision for a melody over their song that they should scrap it in order to give a guy a "break." I don't believe the vocal lines they prescribe are unreasonable. At all.

That is not what artists do. They don't change their vision because they think "well, this guy's having some problems doing this; maybe we should give him a break."  If someone writes a song and brings in somebody to play or sing what he's written and it isn't working out, does he say "well, maybe I should change it because this isn't the part for him"?

They aren't asking him to paint the Sistine Chapel perfectly every night. They're asking him to sing simple melodies that they believe are within his capabilities. They obviously ARE within his capabilities, otherwise they wouldn't be on the album. Plus, I think that last link was pretty decent except the outro. That last part of IT is a fantastic and powerful moment. That is what DT envisioned when they wrote it. I think JLB totally delivered it on the album. It's probably one of his best moments EVER in my opinion. DT should not have settled for less.

Except he routinely misses the mark on them, as tons of performances even since he's "been better" attest to?

Listen, I'm not trying to give James crap, I am simply suggesting that he doesn't need to go to those extremes to sing in an impactful way. But don't act like I'm being unreasonable in thinking they're hard for James to sing, 'cause anyone could go digging for dozens of examples of him, unfortunately, not singing them right.

[changing_seasons]

I think not having a rotating setlist makes sense in this age where concerts have become a full multi-media experience with snchronicity in the lights, backing tracks and videos. It would be hell for any production to have rotating setlists in a tour especially with a multimedia setup as elaborate as DT.

I agree completely. The rotating setlist thing (as awesome and as was hard for the band to pull off) was far more likely back when DT's stage setup wasn't 50% of what it is today. I like Rudess' interpretation of things, saying that they feel that this show is like a theater play. People know what they're gonna get, but they're gonna get an incredibly rehearsed and solid version of what they know is coming to them. Their times, video cues, lightning cues, etc. are far more precise now that they're playing to a click track and a constant set, and these elements make this show the most professional they've put out so far.

Do they really play to a click track now? Somehow I'm very disappointed by this.   

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I mean.....I've been pointing out here for years (probably) that he routinely misses the mark on DOZENS of Dream Theater songs. Should he stop singing those too?

[Perpetual Change]

I mean.....I've been pointing out here for years (probably) that he routinely misses the mark on DOZENS of Dream Theater songs. Should he stop singing those too?

Nice try, but that has nothing to do with my point. All I am saying is that DT *could* start writing songs that are VERY comfortable for him to sing without having to powerhouse it or wear his voice down, and that I would like those just as much / potentially a lot more (since I like James' full mid range more than his thinner high range).

[Ravenfoul]

I think not having a rotating setlist makes sense in this age where concerts have become a full multi-media experience with snchronicity in the lights, backing tracks and videos. It would be hell for any production to have rotating setlists in a tour especially with a multimedia setup as elaborate as DT.

I agree completely. The rotating setlist thing (as awesome and as was hard for the band to pull off) was far more likely back when DT's stage setup wasn't 50% of what it is today. I like Rudess' interpretation of things, saying that they feel that this show is like a theater play. People know what they're gonna get, but they're gonna get an incredibly rehearsed and solid version of what they know is coming to them. Their times, video cues, lightning cues, etc. are far more precise now that they're playing to a click track and a constant set, and these elements make this show the most professional they've put out so far.

Do they really play to a click track now? Somehow I'm very disappointed by this.   

I mean, I like the idea of them being more relaxed and less constrained by a click track but I understand if they're going for precision.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I mean.....I've been pointing out here for years (probably) that he routinely misses the mark on DOZENS of Dream Theater songs. Should he stop singing those too?

Nice try, but that has nothing to do with my point. All I am saying is that DT *could* start writing songs that are VERY comfortable for him to sing without having to powerhouse it or wear his voice down, and that I would like those just as much / potentially a lot more (since I like James' full mid range more than his thinner high range).

I think that would be a terrible and very limiting idea and that in a live setting, those songs in the "VERY comfortable" range would quickly show similar technical shortcomings.

I would rather keep things the way they are now.

[Sycsa]

Do they really play to a click track now? Somehow I'm very disappointed by this.   

Yes, it was confirmed in interviews. I don't like it either, but by far my biggest gripe is the sampled backing vocals, it takes me out of the experience and I find it degrading.

[MoraWintersoul]

And, at the risk of being a little overly critical, right from the very beginning DT vocal melodies relied way too much on those soaring moments to make an impact.

Yes. I mean, do you ever wonder why they took almost two years to find a vocalist after Charlie left. The fact is, they found a singer with alien-ish enough capabilities to sing all the impossible parts they've written for IAW by sheer dumb luck. He's probably one of the rare people who had a voice that could pull that off, looking for a band, at the time.

As soon as James got injured and couldn't sing so high, and as soon as they got less interested in the powerhouse moments, DT's vocal melodies got progressively less interesting. James didn't sing so high on most of his guest performances and solo albums either, but he sounds way more interesting anywhere else than in DT, and especially so when people like Matt G or Arjen are involved. I'll be the first to defend DT's songwriting and I am sorry to be so harsh but I'm not the only person who thinks this way and there's something wrong with this picture. It's good enough, but it's not as good as it can be.

I'm not sure if things would improve if James were the main responsible person for writing his own vocal melodies, because he'd probably go for the DT trademark feel too; but some of the variations he does on the main melodies (like BITS last year) are so fun. If it came to the event where all older DT songs had to be transposed for his comfort, he'd be able to make up for the lost of theatricality (like here, for example, even though the vid is old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x29pdFce1g0). It's just a shame that I personally (and many others) haven't found much interesting stuff in his mid-range singing in DT when he's clearly a great mid-range singer, even more so since he recovered from his injury, he gained a sort of warmth to his lower register that wasn't fully expressed before it.

And I think everyone here is acting a little too worried, it's as if we thought no one in the band sat down and thought about their 50-year-old throats and limbs and old injuries before embarking on such a tour. Really, dudes, they're not five, and they're not seventy either: they got this. Most of the videos I watched are up to ADTOE tour average, meaning they're pretty damn tight already, and James has got this under control.

All I am saying is that DT *could* start writing songs that are VERY comfortable for him to sing without having to powerhouse it or wear his voice down, and that I would like those just as much / potentially a lot more (since I like James' full mid range more than his thinner high range).

Precisely, but I just don't know when's it gonna happen.

[jakepriest]

Do they really play to a click track now? Somehow I'm very disappointed by this.   

Yes, it was confirmed in interviews. I don't like it either, but by far my biggest gripe is the sampled backing vocals, it takes me out of the experience and I find it degrading.

Pre-recorded backing vocals wouldn't be so bad if Petrucci wasn't lip-syncing.

[Perpetual Change]

Yup, you nailed it.

[EdenHazard]

Beautiful post, Mora.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Beautiful post, Mora.

This post coupled with your avatar is fantastic.

[EdenHazard]

That's the idea!

[BlobVanDam]

Do they really play to a click track now? Somehow I'm very disappointed by this.   

Yes, it was confirmed in interviews. I don't like it either, but by far my biggest gripe is the sampled backing vocals, it takes me out of the experience and I find it degrading.

Pre-recorded backing vocals wouldn't be so bad if Petrucci wasn't lip-syncing.

While it's hard to tell from live clips, it appears that JP isn't doing as much lip syncing this tour, or at least it's his own voice more this time. On The Enemy Inside, it's definitely his own vocals doing the backups either way, which I think is great. His voice blends with JLB's really well.

[GasparXR]

Do they really play to a click track now? Somehow I'm very disappointed by this.   

Yes, it was confirmed in interviews. I don't like it either, but by far my biggest gripe is the sampled backing vocals, it takes me out of the experience and I find it degrading.

Pre-recorded backing vocals wouldn't be so bad if Petrucci wasn't lip-syncing.

While it's hard to tell from live clips, it appears that JP isn't doing as much lip syncing this tour, or at least it's his own voice more this time. On The Enemy Inside, it's definitely his own vocals doing the backups either way, which I think is great. His voice blends with JLB's really well.

I've noticed that as well. I enjoy his backing on TEI. I believe he also does the backing vocals in the final part of Illumination Theory.

[theseoafs]

I believe JP also does backing vocals at the end of Lifting Shadows (let me know if I'm wrong).  Thank god, that lip-synching was embarrassing.

[bairrock]

I've been watching many live videos of the recent tour, and it seems when it comes to JP playing his solo parts, he just can't keep up and play them accurate.  Sounds very sloppy and he's missing many notes.  I understand it's the start of the tour and all, but it seems some of his old material that he recorded may be a bit difficult for him to pull off now.  And of course, as you get older, your hands don't get any younger.  Just an observation.  Please chime in if interested.

[rumborak]

I will definitely say, DT plays a type of music that is very unforgiving to the effects of age. While nobody cares about the Rolling Stones missing notes here and there, DT kinda falls off a cliff when that happens.

[GasparXR]

I believe JP also does backing vocals at the end of Lifting Shadows (let me know if I'm wrong).  Thank god, that lip-synching was embarrassing.

Yep, I can confirm that as well.

[?]

I agree with Milena and PC. I think the fact that DT write their songs as instrumentals before adding the vocals prevents them from using James' voice to the full. I'm not going to watch any live videos from this tour until I've seen DT live myself, so I can't judge his performances of IT, but he's 50 now and the vocal melodies he sings in the studio should be easy enough for him to pull off live. James' solo albums prove that mid-range singing is his greatest strength nowadays and the vocal melodies don't need to be ridiculously high to be interesting.

[bairrock]

ok...that was fun...you can delete this entire post.

[Aythesryche]

JP has always occasionally fumbled. Look at old Images & Words tour footage and it's not much different than now. He's a human and prone to fumbling just like anyone else. To qualify Rumboraks statement, any screw up whether its made in his advancing age or when he was young rarely goes unnoticed. It's just the nature of the music and the fans it attracts. It screams perfection. Anything out of place gets immediately noticed and scrutinized. With the age of YouTube, it's easy to pick up on all the faults now and make an observation like you have, bairrock.

I think he's pretty consistent and he's not losing his abilities at all. If anything, he's in better physical and mental shape now than he's been in his past. The guy takes great care of himself! Also consider, as time goes on and more material is written, that means more notes to add to the pile of millions already written. This is JP talking about, not only does the guy have to memorize all the stuff for that tour, but he probably has a shit-load of stuff idling in his head that was never written down, existing as nuggets of potential future songs. If he screws up a note here and there, I think he's doing a great job. I wouldn't take it as a sign of waning physical technique.

[Onno]

I agree with you Milena. And wow, that Another Day video is AMAZING. I love James' vocals!

[In The Name Of Rudess]

I just think that's a somewhat idealized version of music. Everything a band writes is limited by their physical abilities. If their vision calls for something they can't physically do (not saying they've written something like that), obviously something would have to be changed.

It's not just a picture of the ideal world. It's the way a lot of art is composed and it's the reason why people spend all that time improving technique. That's the whole point of virtuosity is so that the body doesn't prevent the mind from expressing itself. Jeez, what if for thousands of years people who had a vision of "really difficult to achieve" music, art or engineering just said it was too ideal to be realized...At the utter extremes, of course there will always be stuff that is "impossible" for humans to play. But that stuff is beyond the scope of this topic and of little relevance to any practical discussion.

What if Mozart said "well this is too ideal to expect anyone to sing" when he was writing the Queen of the Night aria? What if Liszt had never written all those mind blowing virtuosic piano pieces.

This is all true, but Labrie is not a virtuoso singer by any means. So I don't think the viewpoints in this post apply to Labrie's situation.

I mean.....I've been pointing out here for years (probably) that he routinely misses the mark on DOZENS of Dream Theater songs. Should he stop singing those too?

Nice try, but that has nothing to do with my point. All I am saying is that DT *could* start writing songs that are VERY comfortable for him to sing without having to powerhouse it or wear his voice down, and that I would like those just as much / potentially a lot more (since I like James' full mid range more than his thinner high range).

I think that would be a terrible and very limiting idea and that in a live setting, those songs in the "VERY comfortable" range would quickly show similar technical shortcomings.

I would rather keep things the way they are now.

This. I think that simpler/more comfortable melodies would make his technical problems more obvious. At least now when he messes up a line it's more forgiveable since we know the lines aren't so easy.

[The Stray Seed]

And, at the risk of being a little overly critical, right from the very beginning DT vocal melodies relied way too much on those soaring moments to make an impact.

BUT those soaring moments are one of those essential elements that make I&W a groundbreaking, extraordinarily memorable album. Same goes for Awake. DT itself has relied a lot from the start on nearly superhuman skills, and it's not a secret that those musicians are revered as some of the greatest and most skilled of all. It has become their very brand. Mid-range melodies wouldn't have fitted in that "superskilled" theme, cause someone else could have more or less pulled it off. When they were looking for a singer, I think they really wanted someone who could achieve something others could not, and they went with James cause he had this "alien-ish" capabilities, as Mora said.

And records like I&W and Awake have sooo much to do with this alien-ish issue. They feature incredible musicianship, they sound like a nearly godlike achievement from all aspects. And when James sings that friggin' F# on Learning to Live it feels like he's taking off, it's something that has to do with surpassing the limits, it's such a powerful, unforgettable feeling that could never be achieved through any mid-range melody. It's something that gets etched upon your soul.

15 years have passed since I first heard that note, and still, I find myself childlishly trying to reach that impossible pitch in a funny falsetto like... everyday? The emotion that that note holds, in the setting of that song... is something that, to me, was never surpassed by any other band in any other time.

[MoraWintersoul]

@TSS, I get that too, but there are plenty of bands who write songs with which their singers can achieve great dramatic effects without going for the F#'s.

I think that simpler/more comfortable melodies would make his technical problems more obvious.

Dude, what the fuck. Obviously, James does mess up sometimes on some less difficult parts, but any given metal/rock singer will have his fair share of that. Are you seriously saying that those "technical issues" are so great that he'd be fucking up left and right even in his most comfortable range? I'm critical of James as well, it's good to be critical and to expect more, but imo you're just taking it too far.

And no one ever said it would have been better if they laid off all the difficult parts - for goodness sakes, we're fans of the band who clearly said "fuck that" to that notion when they first started - we're just saying we wished they wrote more interesting passages that weren't a strain on their singer, because a lot of their interesting passages fall under that category. Having said all that, I think James is fully capable of carrying out IT and that, when we settle the "score" at the end of the tour, there will be a lot more hit performances of it than miss performances of it.

[adastra]

@TSS, I get that too, but there are plenty of bands who write songs with which their singers can achieve great dramatic effects without going for the F#'s.

I think that simpler/more comfortable melodies would make his technical problems more obvious.

Dude, what the fuck. Obviously, James does mess up sometimes on some less difficult parts, but any given metal/rock singer will have his fair share of that. Are you seriously saying that those "technical issues" are so great that he'd be fucking up left and right even in his most comfortable range? I'm critical of James as well, it's good to be critical and to expect more, but imo you're just taking it too far.

And no one ever said it would have been better if they laid off all the difficult parts - for goodness sakes, we're fans of the band who clearly said "fuck that" to that notion when they first started - we're just saying we wished they wrote more interesting passages that weren't a strain on their singer, because a lot of their interesting passages fall under that category. Having said all that, I think James is fully capable of carrying out IT and that, when we settle the "score" at the end of the tour, there will be a lot more hit performances of it than miss performances of it.

Would I be mad to say that JLB has far more downs than "any given metal/rock singer" ?
BUT I love JLB  and Can't think of more suitable vocalist for DT. 

[MoraWintersoul]

@TSS, I get that too, but there are plenty of bands who write songs with which their singers can achieve great dramatic effects without going for the F#'s.

I think that simpler/more comfortable melodies would make his technical problems more obvious.

Dude, what the fuck. Obviously, James does mess up sometimes on some less difficult parts, but any given metal/rock singer will have his fair share of that. Are you seriously saying that those "technical issues" are so great that he'd be fucking up left and right even in his most comfortable range? I'm critical of James as well, it's good to be critical and to expect more, but imo you're just taking it too far.

And no one ever said it would have been better if they laid off all the difficult parts - for goodness sakes, we're fans of the band who clearly said "fuck that" to that notion when they first started - we're just saying we wished they wrote more interesting passages that weren't a strain on their singer, because a lot of their interesting passages fall under that category. Having said all that, I think James is fully capable of carrying out IT and that, when we settle the "score" at the end of the tour, there will be a lot more hit performances of it than miss performances of it.

Would I be mad to say that JLB has far more downs than "any given metal/rock singer" ?
BUT I love JLB  and Can't think of more suitable vocalist for DT. 

Singers of his own age, genre difficulty and experience? I dunno, man, I always had a feeling he's more scrutinized because of Dream Theater's bootleg culture - we have more chances to hear him fuck up than others. But if you know a singer comparable to James, and if you watch a shitload of James' live videos and live videos of that singer, and still maintain your position, not gonna argue with ya. Maybe there's something I'm missing out on, but I watch a shitload of live videos of a lot of bands and singers who do demanding stuff regularly fuck up. Certainly not gonna hold it against them.

[Tomislav95]

Milena is right. We can't expect James is belting high notes like he used to 20 years ago or like someone much younger than him (Stu Block comes to my mind). It's really hard to find singer of James' age in rock genre who can sing those high notes comfortably.
Also, I'd like he's writing his own vocal melodies (that chorus melody on BITS is great indeed).