Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

There's something that bugs me to no end. Around 17:30 where JLB sings "Never know, know that your aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive", exactly around the 17:35 mark, the effect on JLB's voice comes really out and it doesn't sound good to me. When JLB sustains the note, it sounds extremely artificial because there's a fake vibratto produced by the effect (or at least, that's how I perceive it). Reminds me a little of the effect used throughout the whole Chaos in Motion on James' voice, and I can't put my finger in to what effect it is.

You can go on with your lives. This song is still amazing.

[Implode]

Agreed about that weird effect. It sounds awful.

[jayvee3]

Agreed about that weird effect. It sounds awful.

It may not be to your personal liking, but nothing about the song sounds 'awful'. Time to lay off the Jamba Juice..

[wasteland]

I didn't notice and I am not going to actively look closer to notice it. That's one of my favourite moments of the album, I won't risk ruining it to myself.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Agreed about that weird effect. It sounds awful.

It may not be to your personal liking, but nothing about the song sounds 'awful'. Time to lay off the Jamba Juice..

We're just talking about an effect on the voice, and that "annoying" moment only lasts a couple of seconds. Hence my "the song is still awesome".

[BlobVanDam]

I didn't notice and I am not going to actively look closer to notice it. That's one of my favourite moments of the album, I won't risk ruining it to myself.

If you already like it, listening to it more closely isn't going to ruin it. And if it will, "ignorance is bliss" is a pretty bad way to enjoy music anyway.

I don't like the way he sings that section/line much anyway, but it has nothing to do with the vocal effects. I like the vocal production on the album a lot.

[1neeto]

I didn't notice and I am not going to actively look closer to notice it. That's one of my favourite moments of the album, I won't risk ruining it to myself.

If you already like it, listening to it more closely isn't going to ruin it. And if it will, "ignorance is bliss" is a pretty bad way to enjoy music anyway.

I don't like the way he sings that section/line much anyway, but it has nothing to do with the vocal effects. I like the vocal production on the album a lot.

So it's always better to scrutinize and dissect every single nano second of it? I guess just trying to enjoy a song is overrated.

[BlobVanDam]

I didn't notice and I am not going to actively look closer to notice it. That's one of my favourite moments of the album, I won't risk ruining it to myself.

If you already like it, listening to it more closely isn't going to ruin it. And if it will, "ignorance is bliss" is a pretty bad way to enjoy music anyway.

I don't like the way he sings that section/line much anyway, but it has nothing to do with the vocal effects. I like the vocal production on the album a lot.

So it's always better to scrutinize and dissect every single nano second of it? I guess just trying to enjoy a song is overrated.

If you're intentionally ignoring potential flaws to enjoy something, you're trying a little too hard to enjoy it to the point of ignorance. It's like squinting really hard every time you meet your girlfriend because you're worried she might actually be ugly.

It's not even about finding flaws, it's about hearing nuances, and appreciating details. If you're glossing over details in your mind, you're missing out on that, for better and worse. If someone is truly good, it will elevate your appreciation, not destroy it. If wasteland already loves that bit, listening harder isn't going to affect that.

[The Letter M]

Speaking of weird sounds, one that's always kind of bothered me was something JP does at 18:46...what IS that? It sounds out of place and I wish he had just sustained the note he was already playing.

-Marc.

[Nihil-Morari]

It's just a pinch harmonic, right?

[1neeto]

I didn't notice and I am not going to actively look closer to notice it. That's one of my favourite moments of the album, I won't risk ruining it to myself.

If you already like it, listening to it more closely isn't going to ruin it. And if it will, "ignorance is bliss" is a pretty bad way to enjoy music anyway.

I don't like the way he sings that section/line much anyway, but it has nothing to do with the vocal effects. I like the vocal production on the album a lot.

So it's always better to scrutinize and dissect every single nano second of it? I guess just trying to enjoy a song is overrated.

If you're intentionally ignoring potential flaws to enjoy something, you're trying a little too hard to enjoy it to the point of ignorance. It's like squinting really hard every time you meet your girlfriend because you're worried she might actually be ugly.

It's not even about finding flaws, it's about hearing nuances, and appreciating details. If you're glossing over details in your mind, you're missing out on that, for better and worse. If someone is truly good, it will elevate your appreciation, not destroy it. If wasteland already loves that bit, listening harder isn't going to affect that.

I understand what you say. Part of liking a band like Dream Theater is about those details. But I've noticed that here it's sometimes taken to a ridiculous level. People don't even listen to the music, they listen to which parts they can go "gotcha", it's ridiculous.

The part in question is something I haven't noticed yet and I'm not going to look for it, nit because I want to remain ignorant to it, but because such thing is insignificant to me.

If there's something about IT that has gotten a bit old is the strings part. Loved it at first, but the more I listen to it, the more out of place it sounds. It feels like a saving private Ryan or band of brothers ending credits song. Dare I say it sounds generic?

[Lucien]

I think the orchestra section would fit more at the beginning of the song, hence the edits.

[1neeto]

I think the orchestra section would fit more at the beginning of the song, hence the edits.

I was thinking more at the end instead of the piano part. Sure the song would be a few minutes shorter, but more cohesive IMO.

[The Letter M]

I think the orchestra section would fit more at the beginning of the song, hence the edits.

I was thinking more at the end instead of the piano part. Sure the song would be a few minutes shorter, but more cohesive IMO.

Piano part? You mean the Easter Egg that isn't part of IT at all?

As for the placement of the orchestral section, I think it's perfect, both in terms of the musical flow and how it relates to the lyrical content of the piece itself. If the song opened with it, it would have that SDOIT feel to it. I like that all of DT's epics all open a bit differently and it gives us something exciting to hear with each one. By putting the orchestral section in the MIDDLE, we have an epic that is unlike any of DT's other epics.

-Marc.

[BlobVanDam]

You know what's badass? Right on the 14 minute mark, when the song pauses, and MM slows down the pace with that drum fill, then BAM back into the groovy 12/8 riff, with the keyboard solo.

[chwik]

(Maybe somebody already has written this) Part of the orchestral section is underneath JP's riff in the beginning of the song. Listen at 10:18 and then start the song from the beginning. The orchestral section is also reprised in some other parts of the song (from the 16 minute and to the end), but it is very subtle. 

[jayvee3]

I think the orchestra section would fit more at the beginning of the song, hence the edits.

I've heard the edits, and totally disagree. The problem with the orchestra at the start, is that it simply sounds like an overture. Then the transitions later in the piece, sound a little jarring, and really dont work that well together. With the orchestra in the middle, it breaks things up, progresses into a different beast altogether, and conveys a much bigger sense of going on a journey; that is completely lost when it is at the start. In fact, it was the edited versions that made me appreciate even more, that the song is just fine the way it is and was originally intended..

[jayvee3]

Agreed about that weird effect. It sounds awful.

It may not be to your personal liking, but nothing about the song sounds 'awful'. Time to lay off the Jamba Juice..

We're just talking about an effect on the voice, and that "annoying" moment only lasts a couple of seconds. Hence my "the song is still awesome".

Regardless, it's still not something I would describe as 'awful'...

[Flacracker]

You know what's badass? Right on the 14 minute mark, when the song pauses, and MM slows down the pace with that drum fill, then BAM back into the groovy 12/8 riff, with the keyboard solo.

Yes. I have said this before in the thread. One of my favorite parts of the song.

[Implode]

Agreed about that weird effect. It sounds awful.

It may not be to your personal liking, but nothing about the song sounds 'awful'. Time to lay off the Jamba Juice..

We're just talking about an effect on the voice, and that "annoying" moment only lasts a couple of seconds. Hence my "the song is still awesome".

Regardless, it's still not something I would describe as 'awful'...

Well, it's something I would describe as awful. It does sound just like the equally awful effected used in Chaos in Motion. God forbid I have a negative opinion about DT. 

I still love the song btw.

[Lucien]

(Maybe somebody already has written this) Part of the orchestral section is underneath JP's riff in the beginning of the song. Listen at 10:18 and then start the song from the beginning. The orchestral section is also reprised in some other parts of the song (from the 16 minute and to the end), but it is very subtle.

This is kind of why I put it at the beginning in my edit.

I think the orchestra section would fit more at the beginning of the song, hence the edits.

I've heard the edits, and totally disagree. The problem with the orchestra at the start, is that it simply sounds like an overture. Then the transitions later in the piece, sound a little jarring, and really dont work that well together. With the orchestra in the middle, it breaks things up, progresses into a different beast altogether, and conveys a much bigger sense of going on a journey; that is completely lost when it is at the start. In fact, it was the edited versions that made me appreciate even more, that the song is just fine the way it is and was originally intended..

Yeah, getting Live, Die, Kill to transition nicely to The Pursuit of Truth is really difficult. The original reason why I attempted to edit the song was because I wanted to see how the transition from TEC to TPOT would work as a transition into PDLLN. I just really enjoyed making it to be honest. Is that how I listen to it on a regular basis? No, because I feel that the ambient section gives you some rest between the ridiculously technical instrumental section of Live, Die, Kill and James' amazing vocal work in The Pursuit of Truth. It feels like it's just going on and on for no reason, if you take out the ambient.

[rush-signals]

Love the song, but does anyone else think the beginning sounds like some late 70's arena rock (1:30 - 3:-00 or so)? I hear Cozy Powell or Tommy Aldridge playing the drum part. I love it!

[Sycsa]

Love the song, but does anyone else think the beginning sounds like some late 70's arena rock (1:30 - 3:-00 or so)? I hear Cozy Powell or Tommy Aldridge playing the drum part. I love it!

Rainbow On Stage - Kill the King, yep.

[rush-signals]

Love the song, but does anyone else think the beginning sounds like some late 70's arena rock (1:30 - 3:-00 or so)? I hear Cozy Powell or Tommy Aldridge playing the drum part. I love it!

Rainbow On Stage - Kill the King, yep.

LOL exactly! I just watched that the other day live from 1980 with Graham Bonnet, my favorite Rainbow singer BTW. I love that arena rock vibe.

[TAC]

Any post with a Cozy Powell reference on DTF is all win! Especially on the DT side.

That part is one of my favorites on the album.

[WheyWaffles]

This song represents every potentially legitimate reason to dislike Dream Theater.

I love Dream Theater, but if I'd only heard this song, I would assume they are indeed all the things those critical of the band say they are.  I'd rather loop the 39-minute lovechild of Status Seeker and The Dark Eternal Night at reference volume with an ear infection.  Truly awful.

[theseoafs]

This song represents every potentially legitimate reason to dislike Dream Theater.

I love Dream Theater, but if I'd only heard this song, I would assume they are indeed all the things those critical of the band say they are.  I'd rather loop the 39-minute lovechild of Status Seeker and The Dark Eternal Night at reference volume with an ear infection.  Truly awful.

wtf

[Syzzle]

This song represents every potentially legitimate reason to dislike Dream Theater.

I love Dream Theater, but if I'd only heard this song, I would assume they are indeed all the things those critical of the band say they are.  I'd rather loop the 39-minute lovechild of Status Seeker and The Dark Eternal Night at reference volume with an ear infection.  Truly awful.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the rules. Because just outright bashing DT is against the rules.

[Dark Castle]

This song represents every potentially legitimate reason to dislike Dream Theater.

I love Dream Theater, but if I'd only heard this song, I would assume they are indeed all the things those critical of the band say they are.  I'd rather loop the 39-minute lovechild of Status Seeker and The Dark Eternal Night at reference volume with an ear infection.  Truly awful.

Please, tell us more. 

[WheyWaffles]

This song represents every potentially legitimate reason to dislike Dream Theater.

I love Dream Theater, but if I'd only heard this song, I would assume they are indeed all the things those critical of the band say they are.  I'd rather loop the 39-minute lovechild of Status Seeker and The Dark Eternal Night at reference volume with an ear infection.  Truly awful.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the rules. Because just outright bashing DT is against the rules.

How am I bashing the band?  Because I think they wrote and recorded one awful song, I'm bashing the band?  All of my favorite bands have at least one awful song.  I'd consider only a few in a career spanning more than 20 years to be an excellent record.  My point is I'd hate for someone to try to win over a hater with this particular track because I can think of no worse example of what the band is really about and no better example of all the common negative generalizations about prog.

[Zook]

This song represents every potentially legitimate reason to dislike Dream Theater.

I love Dream Theater, but if I'd only heard this song, I would assume they are indeed all the things those critical of the band say they are.  I'd rather loop the 39-minute lovechild of Status Seeker and The Dark Eternal Night at reference volume with an ear infection.  Truly awful.

Worst. Opinion. Ever.

[The Letter M]

Now now, guys...for every popularly well-received songs, there's at LEAST one person who dislikes/hates it. Conversely, for every song that isn't so well-received, there's at LEAST one person who enjoys it. Yes, I am sure there's one person out there who enjoys "You Not Me" (I mean the album version, not the better "You Or Me" version from the Hollow Years single).

However, expressing said opinions can be done in a tactful and reasonable manner, with full explanations as to why said song isn't like, and without discrediting the band or members themselves. Remember, if a song that is so well loved isn't something YOU like, chances are the song didn't do anything wrong, it's just YOU that doesn't like it. And if YOU don't like, it YOU don't have to listen to it, right? No one holds guns to our heads and forces us to listen to every new DT album, every song, every time, straight-through with no stopping. In the age of digital music, we can edit songs, take tracks out, etc. etc. to make our own playlists and CD-rs of music that WE like. We're all entitled to our OWN personal mixes and opinions, but let's be nice about it, to each other, to the band and its members, and really, to everyone involved. We're all here to enjoy Dream Theater music, and I'm sure Dream Theater want us to enjoy it too!

-Marc.

[WheyWaffles]

However, expressing said opinions can be done in a tactful and reasonable manner, with full explanations as to why said song isn't like, and without discrediting the band or members themselves. Remember, if a song that is so well loved isn't something YOU like, chances are the song didn't do anything wrong, it's just YOU that doesn't like it. And if YOU don't like, it YOU don't have to listen to it, right? No one holds guns to our heads and forces us to listen to every new DT album, every song, every time, straight-through with no stopping. In the age of digital music, we can edit songs, take tracks out, etc. etc. to make our own playlists and CD-rs of music that WE like. We're all entitled to our OWN personal mixes and opinions, but let's be nice about it, to each other, to the band and its members, and really, to everyone involved. We're all here to enjoy Dream Theater music, and I'm sure Dream Theater want us to enjoy it too!

Right, and I certainly haven't attacked the band or attempted to discredit the band or its members.  I'll expand on what I said before because you've been reasonable in your response rather than becoming defensive and sheepishly pointing to forum rules that have not been violated.

Try to think of the criticisms you hear thrown at DT from casual listeners.  Songs are too long, songs are disjointed, lyrics are cheesy/shallow/hyper-dramatic, there's artificial "epicness" for epic's sake, there's out of place wank...  I think all of those except "out of place wank" apply to this particular song, and I would hate if someone who has heard mixed things about Dream Theater yet finally decides to give them a try happens to listen to Illumination Theory instead of A Change of Seasons when sampling longer tracks.

... I mean, the orchestral section in the middle just for the hell of it?  Are you fucking kidding me?

Anyway, proceed to go back to appreciating the song.  To be honest I'm surprised no one is with me on this yet as when the album began streaming pre-release quite a few people regarded the song as a disjointed mess.  Perhaps many have warmed up to it--I'm afraid I haven't.

[The Letter M]

Anyway, proceed to go back to appreciating the song.  To be honest I'm surprised no one is with me on this yet as when the album began streaming pre-release quite a few people regarded the song as a disjointed mess.  Perhaps many have warmed up to it--I'm afraid I haven't.

It could just be that fans (die-hard or otherwise) are viewing the album with rose-colored glasses, or they are just enjoying their "Honeymoon Phase" of the album, and it will likely die off in a few weeks/months, possibly before the tour begins. However, by then, with live versions of the songs hitting the internet, and fan reactions to them on the tour, love for the material, especially this song, may reignite among fans.

On the other hand, casual fans who might go see DT on their upcoming tour next year may hear/see "Illumination Theory" live and have their minds changed about it. I've read stories of fans who have been indifferent towards certain songs of a band but after seeing them live, it was like a religious experience - an awakening happens within them that allows them to see/hear/feel the magic of a song that was otherwise lost on them with the studio recording.

If you happen to see them next year and they play this song, give it a chance because...well, why not? You'd have paid for a ticket for a full show, might as well enjoy every second of it, right? Use the drum solo for your bathroom break anyway  (JK Mike Mangini!!!)

-Marc.

[Lucien]

Anyway, proceed to go back to appreciating the song.  To be honest I'm surprised no one is with me on this yet as when the album began streaming pre-release quite a few people regarded the song as a disjointed mess.  Perhaps many have warmed up to it--I'm afraid I haven't.

It could just be that fans (die-hard or otherwise) are viewing the album with rose-colored glasses, or they are just enjoying their "Honeymoon Phase" of the album, and it will likely die off in a few weeks/months, possibly before the tour begins. However, by then, with live versions of the songs hitting the internet, and fan reactions to them on the tour, love for the material, especially this song, may reignite among fans.

On the other hand, casual fans who might go see DT on their upcoming tour next year may hear/see "Illumination Theory" live and have their minds changed about it. I've read stories of fans who have been indifferent towards certain songs of a band but after seeing them live, it was like a religious experience - an awakening happens within them that allows them to see/hear/feel the magic of a song that was otherwise lost on them with the studio recording.

If you happen to see them next year and they play this song, give it a chance because...well, why not? You'd have paid for a ticket for a full show, might as well enjoy every second of it, right? Use the drum solo for your bathroom break anyway  (JK Mike Mangini!!!)

-Marc.

After listening to this album this much, I can safely say that the supposed "Honeymoon Phase" is over for me.

That being said, I still love the album, and I still love the song.

Orchestra for the hell of it? No. Jordan Rudess wanting to break up the song a bit? In my opinion, very much so. Disjointed? Yeah, but listen to any symphony by any composer and tell me that the movements aren't disjointed. I still dislike A Change of Seasons, except for the one part of Carpe Diem at 8:47. Lots of movements that, in my opinion, are underdeveloped. Compare to The Carnival of the Animals by Camille Saint-Saens, except for some reason I like the latter much more.

A single, unaccompanied orchestra was something they hadn't done before, and they thought it would work, so they put it in. Something new. Isn't that what everyone wants DT to be doing? New things? The same reason I love the ambient section, though I'm a sucker for ambient anyways.